China Railway DF4

[quick pond]

I just like this watermelon

[half shard]

Green

[jovial harbor]

combined with DF8 and 11 a good number of highly produced CRRC produced locomotives would be made
Interested in technical specs+drawings of their components to make locomotives and such based on their technology

[surreal pumice]

haha

Watermelon,that is exactly what we called this locomotive

🤣

But there comes a problem

DF4 doesn't have buffer

If you add it,it will seem weird

Unless you use the zcoupler mod

Oh one question

Where are you from @quick pond ?

[quick pond]

Indonesia

[surreal pumice]

okay

You seem interested in chinese locomotives

😁

[quick pond]

nah, just this one

[surreal pumice]

That locomotive......

Isn't popular as before...

*sigh

Now people more likely to be interested in Electric locomotives

[quick pond]

china give us some of this locomotive to be used in maintenance and building the HSR track

I see that once and think "huh, this seems interesting"

[surreal pumice]

That can explain!

DF4 used to be very popular....

*sigh

Anyway

When i succeeded in building the s12 Caboose

I will try to make this one

I need to have enough time first

[quick pond]

aight, take your time

[jovial harbor]

on whitcomb buffers are invisible, does work but not the best

[thick warren]

Wooow damn I can't believe I did NOT notice that at all, even though I actually just visited a real example of these locomotives myself in a museum not long ago 🤣🤣🤣

[thick warren]

Actually that makes me wonder if any modifications to them were made locally in Indonesia, it would be interesting to model some of those seemingly more historically less known mismatched units! :P

[quick pond]

Probably not yet as they just arrived last year and driven as is there

[surreal pumice]

所以咱俩都是中国人。。为啥还要用英文再二次翻译一遍。。。

[thick warren]

Because this channel (#1047064077878444055) is NOT a Chinese channel, and it would be respectful to the others here, for us to use a language that's used by all the other people.

[surreal pumice]

哦。。我以为你就是在回答我而已

[quick pond]

💀

[thick warren]

Even if that would be the case, the same applies.

[surreal pumice]

ugh!End of conversation.

[fathom cradle]

Hello there! And sorry for the ping!
I am from China and if you are interested in producing a DF4 mod I am more than glad to help ya! I have access to drawings and operational instructions of the locomotive on the Chinese Internet and I can purchase old technical documentation of this locomotive if required.

[jovial harbor]

since i don't do real life stuff(my own standard) it won't be me, but i would certainly help implement it if required
@buoyant lagoon 🥹 please

[buoyant lagoon]

Gauge 1435?

[jovial harbor]

yeap, CN uses that, last pic is interesting for me, NUMBERS, NUUUUUUUUMBERS

https://www.crrcgc.cc/portals/266/pdf/16V240ZJD-E.pdf
this is the engine, 2.9MW with 2.4MW effective on locomotive, would be really nice in the game, would kill vectron in favourite, DJ is also 145km/h max speed

[buoyant lagoon]

Wait wait.. isn't that loco made by "DongFeng " company??

[jovial harbor]

nope, CRRC companies, DJ which is a passenger version has siemens AC motors, there are many varieties of DF4 to chose, i do like E for obvious reasons

[quick pond]

Hello there
Fancy seeing you there

[fathom cradle]

Nice to meet you!

[fathom cradle]

I can obtain the numbers if required. The operating and maintenance documentation of this locomotive can be easily obtained on second-hand market, at very low prices 😉

[fathom cradle]

This loco was designed and developed by the then Dalian Locomotive & Rolling Stock Factory, now CRRC Dalian Locomotive & Rolling Stock Co.,Ltd.

'Dong Feng' means 'east wind' in Chinese

It's not a name of a brand, but a series name

[jovial harbor]

hopefully really detailed stuff, would like to model some bits and pieces for my locomotives such as traction motors, compressors, etc. Its a shame though that its required to pay for it
In china almost everything is dongfeng

[fathom cradle]

TBH I am not an expert in trains lol, new to this community, 😉 previously heavily engaged in flight simulations. There are a lot of info and drawings on the Internet, but I doubt if I can recognize them correctly and pass them on to you guys... So may be it's better for me to just rely on real actual historical documentations

[jovial harbor]

for a non-chinese speaker it will be a lot harder to find it unfortunately, language barrier mostly, not being able to recognise would indeed be problematic, however not the best is better than nothing

[fathom cradle]

Yeah that's true. I can provide interpretation if required 👍

[solemn wind]

mate, they're just having a chat with somebody else in a language they both know well. It's probably something we don't need to know, if it was they'd say it in English.

Look, just let them say a short simple message in their native tongue to somebody else who also speaks it... it doesn't hurt you... it's like one or two sentences...

[fathom cradle]

BTW China also has many other series of locomotives. There are 'Forward' (“Qian Jin”) and 'Construct' (“Jian She”), and 'upriver' ("Shang You") series of steam locos for example. Dong Feng is a very large family that covers almost all widely-produced diesel and electric locos in China

[jovial harbor]

16V240ZJD has 207g/kWh efficiency, in comparison vectron diesel is 199g/kWh which is very good efficiency for 20-30y older technology (needed to record this somewhere for fuel consumption calculations in-game)

[fathom cradle]

A comparison table

Eh this table uses g/Hph

16V240ZJD is rated at 152 g/Hph

[jovial harbor]

with simple math then Kwh can be reached, nice having the table with many of CRRC's engines listed, worse than american equivalent but not that bad ~3%, 200.4g/kWh, 1.36x for /hph->/Kwh

[fathom cradle]

It was 1960s, during the 'Great Leap' and Cultural Revolution when these engines were produced. Chinese industry was about in chaos so to speak

[thick warren]

Mate, you didn't understand what they were saying, and you had no idea what was actually going on, did you? They were literally insulting me for NOT talking back to them in Chinese, when they realized I could also speak Chinese. And I was explaining why I explicitly chose to use English in this channel, despite I have full command of the Chinese language too.

[surreal pumice]

Well.I said a sentence in Chinese and you said we should be respectful to others. Can I understand that you are saying I am insulting others?

In the other hand,just like he says if it was i'd say it in English.

*laugh

Discord always surprises me

[quick pond]

Tbh, I don't even care if y'all using other languages if it not directed at me, I can always just whip out translation app lol

[half shard]

Looks like an American loco

Sorta like a baldwin

[quick pond]

It is based on japanese-built class JF6 which also based from Alco's locomotive in 1920's

[half shard]

Knew it looked american

[fathom cradle]

Yeah it has some American connection

But that's mainly because it refered to soviet design, FD and LV, which had close connection to American products

[fathom cradle]

I have found the operations and mantainance manual of DF4/DF4B via second-hand market. If you guys can confirm that you are willing to create the mod I am going to buy them

It's like 8 bucks

[wanton hamlet]

Absolutely did not expect this thread to already exist

I guess there's a surprising number of Chinese rail enthusiasts here

[fathom cradle]

Come on it's our beloved 'water melon' lol

[wanton hamlet]

no idea not a chinese resident

[fathom cradle]

It's because of its original colour scheme, looks like a water melon. So that becomes its nickname among Chinese enthuthiasts 😉

Oh Christ someone has even included that in the Wiki page of DF4 😅

[solemn wind]

watermelon

[fathom cradle]

Sorry, bad English 😦

[quick pond]

I'm not chinese, but this locomotive piqued my interest after we got some locomotive for the maintenance work on the new HSR track

[fathom cradle]

Oh you are from Indonesia then Yeah because DF4 is the most common loco on Chinese railway since the 1970s. It can literally do everything and China still has a lot of them in service. They did send a couple of DF4s to Indonesia for maintenance work

[quick pond]

If the record is correct, they send 4 DF4B and 1 DF4C

[fathom cradle]

For hauling all the maintence and inspection cars I guess

[quick pond]

and also track laying equipment

well, we don't have standard gauge here

[fathom cradle]

Ah they helped with construction too?

[quick pond]

Yeah, mostly

Well, some sad story

One of them derailed on december last year

[fathom cradle]

Oh... I hope it survived... It's not a common sight to see a DF4B in China nowadays. Most of them are operating in remote areas...

[quick pond]

Here is some videos
https://twitter.com/Metro95_/status/1604434475894870016?t=_3I6b8pnk7wXy1OfYW0zDw&s=19

Adrian Pietersen (@Metro95_)

BREAKING NEWS: KCIC's DF4B and a track installer (?) machine has been derailed this afternoon (18/12) at Padalarang area. The train is seen derailed really far away from the track actually ends.

Video by @.Ferry2121

Likes

741

Retweets

333

▶ Play video

Twitter · Dec 18, 2022, 11:12 AM

[fathom cradle]

That does not look good 😥

I am getting some good reference from the Internet:

I got a 120-page technical description about the mechanical and electric parts of the loco

[quick pond]

God that's a lot

[fathom cradle]

It's like, a detailed description for each sub system, in 2 parts. Part 1 is mechanical parts and auxiliary systems, Part 2 is electrical systems

I can also obtain these if the modders require #1097213031819251893 message

[solemn wind]

oh no no, I wasn't correcting sorry! I can be unclear sometimes... I was more agreeing that it does look like a watermelon

and, either spelling is correct I believe!

[fathom cradle]

Ah I got it! No wories 😉

[solemn wind]

that's quite a distance... I think I can see tracks off to the left about 5 loco-lengths away!

[fathom cradle]

@buoyant lagoon @jovial harbor Sorry for the ping!
Can I send you what I have for now and see what info you would like to know exactly for the mod?

[jovial harbor]

chinese🥰, to me you can send, but as did mention, won't be doing everything of it, its internals will be used by me for my dubious mod ideas
Hopefully boss will be interesting enough to do it, would love
Still find it strange and amazing how you can get official maintenance docs for around 60rmb, that would be almost impossible to get here of local locomotives since they are super locked down on a private archive and to get a page of a document they charge around 0.5-1€(~3.3-6.6rmb)

[buoyant lagoon]

As Miragem said you can send us documents, def. will make that loco there is no thinking more, but when .. I don't know 😅

Est. Month or Two

[jovial harbor]

how much performance will be murdered? Semi-detailed motors muahahahahaha
Unsure if the multiple unit version would have enough differences to make it relevant but might work to cut cab of main model and replace with a end

[buoyant lagoon]

She's big as our biggest loco HŽ Class 2063 😅 - CCA 20-21m

[jovial harbor]

quite close in power, 2.2->2.4MW, 118.5->138/150t, chinese lad is better because better specs and dual cab😈, ||and not american looking||

[buoyant lagoon]

Shut up 😂

Our old lad is 'Merican !!!

[fathom cradle]

Well the loco was not produced by a private company anyway, and loads of documentation were distributed around all the college libraries and railway operators that studied and operated this loco

Documentation is literally everywhere lol

There you go! Thank you so much!

[fathom cradle]

Yeah I can understand that. our watermelon is a bit too big and obviously too powerful for the game... Maybe making its capability close to the DE6 or a tad more better than the DE6?

[fathom cradle]

Thank you so much!!!

It seems that Discord has murdered the original document titles. Re-upload:

If you need any translation I can help ya no worries

[jovial harbor]

will only make it as close as possible to real one, no buffs or debuffs(that is why vectron's range is so bad, small fuel tank), when display arrives to my phone will try to see if picture translation works well enough to request places for translation
3.3x4.7m does complicates things, too tall for small parts, and also for PT+HZ

[surreal pumice]

thanks for understanding

[fathom cradle]

That would be very ideal! Very appreciated 👍 Respect to your pursuit of realism!

[wanton hamlet]

does this not say "compressor powered by the compressor?"

I assume it means turbo or supercharger or some sort

my Chinese is really getting tested here

[fathom cradle]

It means a compressor powered by turbo-charger/super-charger

In this case I assume it is turbo charger as the 16V240ZJ engine used by DF4 has one

Your Chinese is very decent if you can tell that 😉

[wanton hamlet]

ah both of them sound like "squeeze air machine" to me

Thanks haha

tbf my parents are from china

so its not like i don't know any chinese

[fathom cradle]

Ah haha that's why
It's a bit confusing yeah both words all literally mean 'squeeze the air' or 'raising the pressure of the air'. If they wrote '涡轮增压器' it would be easier to tell it apart from the compressor I believe

[surreal pumice]

Not considering about grammer

增=raise/rise

压=pressure

器=equipment

气=gas/air

机=machine/equipment

增压器=raise pressure machine
压气机=push air machine

It is like 增压器 raise the pressure，so 压气机 can use the pressure to push the air

In the case it will be more understandable

Although i am a native chinese,I don't know whether that is right

Because i know little things about those locomotives....

But but but

Technical problems aside

DF4 doesn't have buffers

If you add it,it will be very weird

If you don't add it,it will be very weird too

[surreal pumice]

This is for the locomotive itself

[surreal pumice]

This is for the game's cars

[jovial harbor]

with whitcomb they are invisible, implementation isn't perfect a bit......jumpy i guess could be said, but would be correct to be buffer-less even though me as a european consider the lack of buffers as heresy
Docs are really interesting, at the time to make it will be making the interrogation for mostly the electrical area which are real good stuff, but well, if even more can be found it will be even better

[quick pond]

tbh it's better visually to leave it without buffer

[fathom cradle]

Any specific sub system that you think more documentation is required?
I can obtain manuals for electric and compressed air systems

[fathom cradle]

The operation and maintenance manual is on its way. I got it for 5 RMB plus 6 for post lol

[jovial harbor]

the most ideal is as much as possible, it would allow to model every component with, so cheap, really unlucky to live here😅, at least low resolution which would be lovely, for co-op models of boss and me i usually do more technical/smaller bits which motors, compressors, etc. Since i do things using CAD-like methods i gain a lot from proper mechanical drawings(i don't need and use the normal overlaying sheet to model)

[fathom cradle]

Okay! I believe manuals for sub-systems would have those, info and drawings for specific parts. For example this is from the compressed air system manual:

There are also some textbook style documentations... It's like a volume of every system of the loco, but the content for each system is kinda simple. It is therefore more general than these sub-system manuals. I just would like to have an idea about what kind of info you prefer 😉

[jovial harbor]

at this moment trying the general ones only, if they got enough information then good, if not, that is extra expense, that might or not complicate things, even though 5rmb probably doesn't even pay for printing it
But me as the electronics person i am already very interested in having the full electricals😂

[fathom cradle]

LOL alright 👌

[surreal pumice]

Wait what the?
you can buy a MANUAL?

[fathom cradle]

It's all over the place, you can buy one too lol

[fathom cradle]

Got this for ya

The whole book is on DF4's electric transmission

[jovial harbor]

costs the same as 1Kg of sugar here😅, i am going to have a lot of fun with it, even more with translation of course which might be a bit complicated, well, will have to check LCSC for component names

[fathom cradle]

Hello there! Sorry for the ping. @jovial harbor @buoyant lagoon
The manuals are here

The black one is general, the orange one is electric-specific

Tables of Contents

data tables

[buoyant lagoon]

It's really interesting how you guys stick it in two seperated books

[fathom cradle]

Some pages from the electrics manual

[fathom cradle]

It's actually more of a textbook I would say?

It would be ideal if you guys can tell me which part would you like to read according to the table of contents so that I can take photos of that part for ya 😉

I am shit at math and physics... but I am kinda ok for translation. I study law BTW
So I really rely on you guys for interpretation of those math and physics stuff... but I can translate the text and graphs for you on my own

[jovial harbor]

those, so delicious, its a shame that dimensions on motor/etc seem to have too low resolution on print😭, can't read dimensions, when i fix my phone will see if will be able to get auto translation working, might also require to learn a bit more CN chars😅, that is going to take quite a while unfortunately, well, translation help will of course be required

[fathom cradle]

Glad you like them! I will check if I can find some discripsions regarding those dimensions in the text but I doubt it... This manual is older than me lol, from 1993. The printing is unfortunately not that good.

Take you time no worries 😉

[buoyant lagoon]

By any chance anyone know where I can find K8000 Korail locomotive blueprints? Or stuff like that

[fathom cradle]

Korean loco... It looks very Alstorm I have to say... But I don't know about Korean stuff, very different language and culture 😅

[fathom cradle]

@jovial harbor @buoyant lagoon
Sorry for the ping! Operation and maintenance manual for DF4 is here ☝️

It has some very detailed performance data, ie, how long it takes to charge the air reservoir at what air pressure level; how far would the train coast away with a certain number of carriages connected etc.

This manual is from 1989, and it has its pull-out page in almost pristine condition, very amzaing

[buoyant lagoon]

21m nice sausage, LOVE IT!

[fathom cradle]

Huge pull-out page for electric wiring

[buoyant lagoon]

@jovial harbor Some BIG BRAIN stuff for you

😵‍💫 😵‍💫 😵‍💫 😵‍💫 😵‍💫 😵‍💫 😵‍💫

[fathom cradle]

Yeah I think most of the performance data can be obtained from this, and I get this historical relic with less than 1 EUR

🤑

[jovial harbor]

ehehe, with my phone now fixed can google translate stuff, unsure if game correct result since can't see were control stuff is there but its indeed a lighting one

[ivory prairie]

you should see the wiring diagrams at the SA NRM

shit loads

[fathom cradle]

This is for the control system (at least the page says so)

[fathom cradle]

🥵

It says automatic control

[jovial harbor]

its really amazing how cheap you can get them, paper printing it is even more expensive, those docs are for DF4 base correct? Unsure how large differences are for the other variants
Probably will make a lot of sense having the original and also newest(?) one, the D and one of the 2 unit ones, fortunately differences are more likely to be mostly only on cabin and internals

[fathom cradle]

DF4 base and DF4B is almost identical except for the engine

Variants beyond B have more things to figure out of course, I will see what I can get 👌

[jovial harbor]

huuum, confused if those are pneumatic pipes or electrical wires, circuit is pneumatic however dimensions don't make sense for pneumatics except on the end with 1/2" one

[fathom cradle]

They are pneumatic pipes, but there are electric valves controlling them

If you are looking for the circuit for electric controlling I think it would require some digging on that big pull-out page...

That pull-out page has lighting and controlling circuits in it

[fathom cradle]

It says diagram for the controlling circuit

No worries if this is what you are looking for I will give you a better shot

May need to find myself a scanning machine lol...

[jovial harbor]

impressive that control circuit is all passive, but well, probably there is a lot more, interesting, interesting
Assuming there is also a reference for every numbered net, that will also be useful for the parts that don't completely understand(mostly due to lack of context and/or different symbols than i am used, of the electrical type)

[fathom cradle]

There is, it's on the right side, and all of them are in hand-written Chinese... The whole drawing was completed by hand and re-printed...

[fathom cradle]

@jovial harbor Good afternoon! As promised:
This is titled as 'DF4 loco main circuit and auxiliary circuit'

This is titled 'DF4 loco controlling and lighting circuits'

[jovial harbor]

those pics are indeed a lot better to the former ones, its a good help to trade well the entire circuit, for the visuals will be ideal to get pictures of as much as possible to know physical location of those modules, still undecided on the PCB part, well, something for later

[fathom cradle]

For the electric parts there is:

But it's a bit general indeed

Ah... There is actually instruction video for electric maintenance... But it is all in Chinese and there is no subtitle lol...

Part I:
【东风4型内燃机车电气电路检查（上）】 https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1gr4y1M7Hb/?share_source=copy_web&vd_source=0f2a01e7efd9ed7237397b0d34bd3405

Part II:
【东风4型内燃机车电气电路检查（下）】 https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1PU4y147XD/?share_source=copy_web&vd_source=0f2a01e7efd9ed7237397b0d34bd3405

bilibili.com is pretty much the Chinese equivalent of Youtube BTW

[jovial harbor]

sometimes i remember that should use it more, but them that part of not knowing near all CN chars does complicate things😅

[jovial harbor]

those videos, so good, contactor sounds, so chunky👀

[fathom cradle]

Glad you like them lol, instructing videos from the 1990s

[fathom cradle]

If you need translation just let me know which part of the text you need

[jovial harbor]

wops, forgot to reply, will need but its best for later when we go to actively making it

[surreal pumice]

That would be a big project XD

[feral trench]

If any of this would exist for any locos in Europe/ex-yugoslavia, it would make like so much easier.

[fathom cradle]

I will be there with you😉

[fathom cradle]

I found all these via second-hand market... I don't know if this is also the case for Europe. I have once lived and studied in The Netherlands and I do recall seeing some old railway books in second-hand book stores

[fathom cradle]

I am curious... Although I know the mod suggestion section has already been saturated by steam locomotives... Is there any interest in the Chinese Qian Jin (“前进”) type locomotive?

[surreal pumice]

Too big for dv

(dv曲率。。。10动轮直接卡死)

She won't pass the curve in dv

[fathom cradle]

Eh... It has the same minimum turning curve as the DF4, at 145m... or that figure does not deal with this issue?

[fathom cradle]

If she cannot pass then DF4 cannot pass either... which is very... annoying

[surreal pumice]

Read private messages

[jovial harbor]

probably would only be visual issue

[fathom cradle]

That's good to know, at least the 145m figure is acceptable in DV

[jovial harbor]

would need to have train testing map done to know limits of radius, etc, unfortunately tools to do track aren't good so would be painful to do it

[fathom cradle]

As such an inspiring and productive community we have, may be handy tools can hopefully be just a time issue lol

Well I think I will just open a new topic for the QJ Class anyway, and I will provide required info as always. Chinese steam locomotives are kinda unique... They are Chinese design based on Soviet design, who has its design based on American products... and QJ is the most powerful and advanced among them

[fathom cradle]

Good news! I just found that one of my friends that I know from the Internet is also a railway enthusiast, and he happens to have some good reference of DF4! There are more references coming!

This one was built by Dalian loco works in 1990

[jovial harbor]

all the possible pictures will be required, for better schematic+drawing to real equipment creation, fortunately this will only be started some months later

[fathom cradle]

Yeah I fully understand. A huge update is coming our way so there must be fundamental changes in the game codes, that would need time and effort to get adapted to. I also saw your WIP list (that is pretty huge) so I am not in a hurry. I will keep you updated about what I've acquired lately

[jovial harbor]

yugo fever wip list, yeap, quite large, will be natural that its going to be for a longer timeframe indeed

[surreal pumice]

Lots of gauges....

I like that!

[fathom cradle]

Guys I got a graph book for you today

The book title is DF4 Locomotive Structural Graphs

[jovial harbor]

documents available for it seem abundant, hopefully will be possible to have those elements with detailed dimensions

[fathom cradle]

I will see what I can find. Most of the graphs do not contain dimension figures as they are of illustration purposes mainly. Their dimensions are correct but no figures labeled.

[surreal pumice]

This post is dead?

[spare remnant]

Watamellon

[jovial harbor]

cypress is dead.....ish

[surreal pumice]

Nope he is busy with work

He is waiting for CCL

[surreal pumice]

🍉

[buoyant lagoon]

ded

[fringe carbon]

I have already built the model of DF11😋

[jovial harbor]

ehehehehehehe, other model that like a lot, gearing of it less suitable for the game but will still be good