Random discussion

[glass light]

Probably a Goxamoc/Xogamoc situation, with one statblock per phase

I think I'd also draw heavily on Elden Ring boss design, for things like multiple health bars, and changing elemental abilities

[charred gale]

Absolutely. My best encounter ever was a 3-session boss rush in a 3 story building where every floor was in play.

[quick quarry]

I will say - I sometimes debate going to specific DC's for skill tests; so that I can set target numbers

[hoary anvil]

What do you guys think is more intuitive

[ancient pewter]

first

[hoary anvil]

Not sure they'll read well at print actually. Gotta test that. Still opinions welcome

[copper ocean]

I think the plus and minus are better. The skull doesn't give "consequence" as much as "death". The trophy is fine though.

[hoary anvil]

I like the plus and minus too but Idk

I used the trophy for downtime projects so I replaced it with a "gift" icon which I think says reward lol

Also the icons are more fun at least

I just dk what other icon to use for Consequence

Mess with the bull, you get the 🐂 ?

Warning sign?

[copper ocean]

The icons are more fun, but less intuitive. Just depends on priorities.

I like the ± and -.

[hoary anvil]

Well, that appears to be a 50/50 at this point 😅 I do prefer the +- but I like this too

Ty ty tho I do appreciate the feedback

[worn bane]

I prefer the +/- as well.

[hoary anvil]

Did a test print and they came out a little cramped so looks like it'll have to be the ±

[white moat]

on todays episode of 'cooking or cooked'

ignore the empower/keen focus being different to how core magic items do it thats not the important bit

the important bit is harmony, spirit of the seven and as one

[grim haven]

I think that's cool! So many surges

[white moat]

sicknasty

[ancient pewter]

harmony is cool

spirit of the seven feels like a lot to track

i feel like if it was "choose one" smth like that it would be better

[white moat]

thats chiefly what i was asking about

[ancient pewter]

maybe "choose two"?

cuz thats effectively equivelent to a troubadour/conduit's HR triggers

[white moat]

2 HR vs 1 surge is a huuuuuge difference

or do you mean complexity-wise

yeah i see it

[ancient pewter]

yeah i mean complexity wise

just in terms of

[white moat]

itd have to be choose x (3?) at the start of the encounter though and i feel like theres some that you never pick which kinda sucks

[ancient pewter]

"the first time these two things happen, get x"

thats just how it is when u get a big list like this

why not choose each respite?

[white moat]

same issue but exacerbated

[ancient pewter]

knowledge is easily the least prevelent of these

i think the rest are fine

but u might run ur table differently

[quick quarry]

@white moat I think it fits. As an artifact, I think it's OK to be more complex than average.

That said, does the item have any more story components to it?

[white moat]

yeah its basically the master sword but theres 6 of them

its not an artifact in the book artifact sense though

its more just a levelled treasure with key story importance that cant be destroyed and stuff

[ancient pewter]

so theres some titles that give u ancestry points in some ancestries, but not all

what would be a good one for hakaan, for instance?

[worn bane]

Came up with this table for low-risk tests.

[hoary anvil]

Doomtouched — You witnessed a hakaan face their doom

Barrow-Trained — You completed the Learn from a Master project with a hakaan mentor

(First one for Doomsight-themed abilities, second for any other hakaan traits)

[white moat]

todays episode of cooking or cooked
again ignore the numerical bonuses
is tailwind too cracked

[ancient pewter]

for a 1st level feature? yeah

that effect only shows up on e3 features iirc

[white moat]

tacticians get it at 10 but thats everyone who attacks the marked target

should i swap guided and tailwind

[quick quarry]

Yeah, guided is better for dormat option

[white moat]

dope

since magic item 4 is for a vessel i wont post that
so instead heres a vanguard tactician for item 3
cooking or cooked

[ancient pewter]

magmatic revenge might be a lil difficult to track

[white moat]

reduce 7 damage next turn you deal 7 more damage

i dont think its that crazy

[white moat]

is this too fucked up to even consider

or actually is it nothing because it doesnt do anything round 1

[ancient pewter]

this seems fine to me

[grim haven]

So everyone you damage in an encounter receives forced movement together?

[cunning harbor]

Conduit gets it at level 2

Still too cracked for a first level treasure though

[cunning harbor]

I'd swap guided and tailwind, which I see Zetesofos also suggested.

[cunning harbor]

Does erupt stack?

[white moat]

no

thats why it says 'the next time'

[white moat]

its what i suggested bozo 😤

[cunning harbor]

I mean say a swarm of minions decides to trade in their actions for maneuvers and they all shoved me. Each of them increase "the next time" I force move a creature

I'd clarify the wording a bit

[white moat]

ohhhhhhh

i think that would stack

[cunning harbor]

I think overall power level is a bit high

the level 1 feature is probably going to be +4 damage at first level, and it only goes up from there

[cunning harbor]

Speaking of the flavor text discussion in #ds_general , here are some of my personal favorites from abilities I've made.

[quick quarry]

Sometimes flavor text is meh, sometimes, you get a good one. Some of my favorites:

[cunning harbor]

Pivot Maniform is great

although combine that with "This is what we planned for" or anything else that allow turn stacking, and you could set up some nasty AoEs

[worn bane]

These are some good ones for sure.

[quick quarry]

Also, the vibes on these are really good. Gunslinger ain't got time for outlaws...

[cunning harbor]

Well, unless they are the outlaw... 😅

[quick quarry]

Trying to rebuild a few 5e abilities in DS for a possible conversion project for some old characters - though I got some fun twists in mind to explain some differences. That said - DS version of spiritual weapon - thoughts?

And here's a version of command perhaps

[quick quarry]

Also, Spike Growth - its a large area but damage depends only on movement, and just difficult terrain.

[worn bane]

Seems pretty weak for a 5 HR.

[worn bane]

This I'm not as sure about.

[worn bane]

Probably on the weaker side as well.

[quick quarry]

Honestly, weak is surprising, but happy to bump these up if they seem weak to be sure

[worn bane]

Spiritial Weapon I'm pretty confident is weak. There are some very good maneuver 5 HRs in this game (Now!, for instance).

Spike Growth is harder to rate on paper, but it seems like it might be difficult get value out of.
It's possible in the right comp it can be very good, I suppose. But again, it's one of those abilities that's hard to whiteroom.

[proper shell]

what are a couple of ideas for 1-point ancestry traits for a werewolf? so far ive only got 2, but i feel like i ought to have 2 more before i consider this ancestry finished. heres what i have right now

Heightened Senses - Edge on tests made to notice creatures and threats
Waxing and Waning - When you spend a Recovery, you can end one EoT or save ends effect on you

and for 2-pointers, i have one that lets you turn into a wolf (similar mechanics as the Animal Form complication), immunity to Bleeding, and one that lets you turn 2 squares of a Charge into either a Shift or in any direction

[quick quarry]

Charge while climbing? Or a bonus to Jumping distance?

[white moat]

i remember thinking your magewright ones were all really good
pivot manifold is 👌 goated tho

most of my fav vessel ones are actually in the Whimsy tbh

the base class has some pretty solid ones but idk if theres anything im crazy in love with

[proper shell]

think i'll go with the jump boost. thanks!

[proper shell]

hows this sound?

[copper ocean]

I like this. I was just talking with one of my players yesterday about mourning the lack of more utility style magic like Command, Hold Person, Read Thoughts, and Grease.

[worn bane]

Seems fine to me.

[cunning harbor]

Probably a bit too strong for a 1 point. Starting with a surge is worth 1 point

Barbed tail is damage equal to highest characteristic once per round, but that can only be damage and only on melee

[proper shell]

hmm what if i change the distance to adjacent?

[cunning harbor]

I’d make it do something on a failure

[cunning harbor]

That works!

[quick quarry]

Oh, on T1 - yeah, probably a good idea

Probably a slide?

[cunning harbor]

Or used a surge against a target next to you, though that’s mostly useful for melee

[hoary anvil]

It does apply to multi-targets though, so it's sliiightly more valuable

[cunning harbor]

Shouldn’t be tier related, just if the potency fails

[quick quarry]

ah, ok.

[proper shell]

oh i think i like that better. keeps it a bit flexible, but still requires the player to engage with it

[cunning harbor]

Mhmm

[worn bane]

Is it? Consider Barbed Tail, for instance.

[cunning harbor]

I was directly using it as a comparison

[hoary anvil]

Literally the next message lol

But Barbed Tail is slightly better than a surge

But, only on melee. So it kinda evens out

[worn bane]

Oh lmao.

Literally had only a moment to read one message

(I should just read the entire discussion before responding and not be impulsive lol)

[cunning harbor]

Surges can be used to increase potency though. Which is VERY impactful, especially against solos/leaders

[worn bane]

Solos and leaders tend to kinda eat potency effects, though. Especially solos.

[cunning harbor]

With surges, you can actually make them work though. And successfully landing a slow/restrain/daze on a solo is pretty massive. Forcing a werewolf to do a 5 damage free strike instead of hitting for 26 is a very nice feeling.

[unreal pawn]

I want to say that Barbed Tail is undercosted and Useful Emotion is overcosted, it feels like the ancestry features aren't as tightly balanced as the math on signature/heroic abilities

[quick quarry]

Useful emotion would be good if it scaled with Victories, but maybe at a 2:1 ratio?

[cunning harbor]

That’s probably too strong. But I could see getting a second one at 4+ victories

[worn bane]

That's probably fair.

[ancient pewter]

all this talk about troubadour has gotten me thinking about making something similar to #1394497958086578176 since it feels like theres a gap in some ability choices, the flavor of the auteur (one i like, for the record), and the general fantasy of the class

i wanted to poll people's experiences, responses, and general fantasy/vibes for the class

[white moat]

todays episode of cooking or cooked

a leader that turns into a solo halfway through

(gloom is just bleeding)

[vagrant mantle]

Leader becoming a solo is a thing i've been so interested in deploying

Like, so many bbeg do the classic video game "attack pattern change" at bloodied, but to trigger that off something else, like minions being destroyed is always fun too

I've wanted to do it as like, a king who is corrupt but is keeping up the charade for his tricked followers, and then when it's just him left, he can drop the act.

[vale panther]

"This world is an illusion, Exile."

Proper boss battles is something I'm so looking forward to

[worn bane]

I'm in favor.

[ancient pewter]

would be interested in hearing ur take about general vibes/fantasy for the class

thats what im sorta trying to zero in on rn

[worn bane]

The vibes seem good already, no?

It's just the gap in power between abilities for me.

[ancient pewter]

just trying to identify whats working and what isnt, for people

on a macro level

ie how bringing persist to the forefront of the elementalist was a focus of the elementalist unbound

[worn bane]

Mhm. So in the case of Troubadour, I don't think there's as much need for a change in fundamental design of the class.
For Elementalist Unbound, bringing Persist to the forefront of the class wasn't necessarily the only way to go, in my opinion, but it works well because it gives the Elementalist more things to spend HR on, and fits what @white moat feels is the core of the class fantasy. (Matt might disagree)

In my opinion, Troubadour just needs a balance pass on the heroic abilities, rather than any refocusing of design elements.

Now in terms of what the core mechanical fantasy is, as far as I can tell, it's a kind of support class.
It specializes in buffing allies, a bit of healing, and CC'ing enemies.

[ancient pewter]

i do agree on the 3-cost and 5-cost 1st level abilities

i would adjust those

[worn bane]

Those are the biggest offenders for sure. I'd go as far as to say as the biggest imbalance between choices at those bands in the game.

[ancient pewter]

i have some opinions on both drama triggers and appeal to the muses, as ive gone over in other channels

but im more curious about hearing others' takes

[worn bane]

Drama triggers I could take or leave personally. They do feel thematic though.
Appeal to the Muses I think is fine, at least balance-wise. I think the issues people have been having with stem from not having picked good 3 and 5 HR abilities, making them feel like they don't need the extra HR, so why give the director malice?

[ancient pewter]

i can definately see that

[worn bane]

If you have both Dramatic Reversal, and Harmonize, you can never have enough HR and will always use Appeal to the Muses.

If you don't have Harmonize - you probably still do.

If you don't have either, eh...

[ancient pewter]

i think ill have to think about like

[worn bane]

Depends on how good your 2nd level 5-HR picks are.

[ancient pewter]

the triggered actions too

[worn bane]

Why so?

Harmonize is probably the best.
But it does come at the cost of not having a no-cost trigger.

Now, you can min/max that by getting a trigger from some other source (like Devil's ancestry trigger, I believe).

The Auteur trigger is... not great.

[ancient pewter]

thats what i mean

auteur trigger and duelist trigger (especially the latter, cuz thats what i have experienced with)

dont feel impactful

[worn bane]

Yes, I agree.

There's also the maneuvers.

Power Chord is the best by far.

(Ahem forceful imbuement ahem)

Star Power is frankly awful.

[ancient pewter]

idk if its awful but it does feel like filler

[worn bane]

The fact it costs 1 HR now makes it awful in my eyes.

Before it didn't cost anything. It was OK. Still not Power Chord level, but not many class maneuvers are.

[ancient pewter]

lol okay

well i think the point is made

im curious what you think about the Auteur Discourse

[worn bane]

What discourse? I might have missed it.

(onelastthing - Dramatic Monologue also isn't great and could use some help, could just make the spend effect be the base effect)

[ancient pewter]

just about the meta nature of the auteur

[worn bane]

Imo it's cool but also won't fit every table.

I think it's the type of subclass you need to discuss with your director first.

[ancient pewter]

that was something that was on my radar too

but i feel like its more a flavor thing?

idk, maybe that one feature that i forget the name of

could be adjusted, idk if its conflicting hugely

[ancient pewter]

i think they feel dramatic for sure, and they have systemic alignment with conduit, so i think theyre fine

something leaves me wanting tho

since conduits get the prayer effect

i get the feeling the trade off is supposed to be the passing around HR?

its lacking a bit of pizazz imo

[worn bane]

Which one?

[ancient pewter]

i get its supposed to be a bardic inspiration imo

[worn bane]

Kinda, yeah.

[ancient pewter]

the uhhh, one where u change a group of minions

[worn bane]

You also get additional triggers at level... 4, I think?

[ancient pewter]

yeah

i just fucking remembered

the one where u need 3 abilities in the same turn is awefuly confusing

[worn bane]

I'm not sure if you can reflavor it to not be meta, if that's what you mean.

[ancient pewter]

i get the intent but it has felt like u have to bend over backwards for it

[worn bane]

YES

[ancient pewter]

an idea might be to like

swap it for one of the lvl 4 ones?

[worn bane]

I feel like maybe just the wording needs to improve somehow.

The thing is, it's harder to do the less players you have

Which is kinda feelsbad

[ancient pewter]

it also basically requires u to pick certain abilities or have a specific class (cough cough tactician)

[worn bane]

Yeah.

I could see just replacing it with something else tbh

Or making it 2 abilities in 1 turn and reducing the drama gain

[ancient pewter]

i think it has to stay symmetrical

with the drama gain of other abilities

[worn bane]

Does it?
It can just instead be 1, 2, 3, 10.

[ancient pewter]

typically draw steel likes for options in the same class to be broadly symmetrical

since it basically means 2/combat u get 2 HR

just making it less reliant on certain tactician options would be useful

but also something dramatic....

hmmm

[worn bane]

But then, the crit thing gives 3 drama.

But I understand your point.

[ancient pewter]

thats fine, its a 3% chance to happen 😂

replace it with this one?

The first time a hero deals damage with 3 surges, you gain 2 drama.

or this one?

The first time the Director deals damage to a hero using a Villain
action or an ability that costs Malice, you gain 2 drama.

both are pretty dramatic options

[worn bane]

3 surges is also pretty party dependent.

And gives the advantage to Virtuoso which can give out surges

[ancient pewter]

malice is easy to proc, keys into appeal to the muses, and is dramatic, i feel?

[worn bane]

Yeah.

[ancient pewter]

plus its kinda a no-brainer to pick at lvl 4

so it makes that decision a bit harder

[worn bane]

Oh, isn't this meant as a replacement to the '3 abilities' thing?

Ahh

You want to swap

[ancient pewter]

swapping them

sorry

didnt explain myself

[worn bane]

Yeah that makes sense honestly

No worries

[ancient pewter]

okay so

• swap 3 ability drama trigger for spending malice drama trigger
• changes to triggered actions, manuevers, 3-cost and 5-cost abilities

if you or anyone else would be willing to share some potential rebalance changes to the 3 and 5 costs i would appreciate it, but its late so i dont have the brainpower to write it up rn

[worn bane]

Mind if I get started with the triggers and maneuvers first?

[ancient pewter]

go for it

ill check it out tomorrow

ill still be here chatting, but i prob just cant write up some homebrew rn

[worn bane]

Maneuvers

• Dramatic Monologue should have the 'spend' effect at base, meaning they can always pick 2 targets. Spend effect changes to "pick an additional effect with different targets", with cost of 2.
• Star Power shouldn't cost any HR. This one is tricky because it's better early on, and worse the higher level you are.
  Still, if we don't want to completely change the ability, this is fair.

Triggers

• Riposte - This trigger is relatively OK. The main issue with it is it's range limitation. Could just make it Ranged 5 or 10 and call it a day.
• Turnabout Is Fair Play - Changes to...

Effect: An edge on the triggering roll becomes a bane, or a
double edge is negated. A bane becomes an edge, or
a double bane is negated.
Spend 1 Drama: An edge on the triggering roll becomes a
double bane, or a bane becomes
a double edge.

[ancient pewter]

i would be interested in seeing what ur take on a totally new ability would be

[worn bane]

That might be necessary because I can't think of a way to make Fake Your Death not bad.

Maybe something like "Break a Leg". An ability that could either buff a teammate, or debuff a foe (slowed and something else).

For the buff, something like automatic T3 plus something else. Make it a maneuver.

[ancient pewter]

i like ranged 5 for riposte btw

[cunning harbor]

That was removed

It’s now “missed cue” and makes an enemy show up a round late

[cunning harbor]

So the spend for dramatic monologue adds two more targets, effectively?

[cunning harbor]

Idea for Turnabout is fair play:
Replace an edge with a bane, or a bane with an edge. Spend 1 drama: replace a double bane with a double edge, or a double edge with a double bane.

(Might need to be 2 for the spend)

Just remove all of the fiddly options: you always flip it

[worn bane]

With a different effects, but yes.

[worn bane]

Sounds fine to me as a spend 1.

And yeah def simpler like that.

[cunning harbor]

1. have it hide you, 2) make it so that when you exit hiding, a creature is potency surprised

Surprised is a nice condition, but not too strong

Crazy idea for appeal to the muses: reverse the table.

Best results on a 1 roll, worst on a 3

So it’s a way of guaranteeing 3 drama generation

[worn bane]

Would still be pretty bad imo.

It's just very situational.

[cunning harbor]

Up the damage then

[quick quarry]

I'd also like to remind folks that you can use appeal to muses to hand HR to your allies. At lvl 2.

Just catching up on all of this 😜

[worn bane]

That's true.

[quick quarry]

So, noticed they did add one drama to star power, and I agree is a bit weaker. Why did they do that I wonder?

[worn bane]

No clue. I thought it was pretty mediocre even before it had a drama cost.

The 'why' has to be that someone in the team thought it was too strong. But why they thought that is anyone's guess.

[quick quarry]

Agreed. I feel like the movement bonus should be free, and you can move the auto to to the spend option. So base 4 speed, spend 1 for t2. That way, it scales better with level

I'd also have speed enhance Disengage Distance too

If you want to get really crazy, increase the crit range on the spend up

[worn bane]

+4 speed for a maneuver compares pretty badly to something like Black Ash Teleport.

[quick quarry]

True, but it's better than it was. But it's not always apples to apples, as your mostly working within a cclass. Ba teleport is by far one of the best maneuvers period, so most will fall short, but it's balanced by other BA options

I'm OK with star power being weaker if duelist has stronger options elsewhere

[worn bane]

Well, it's compared to Power Chord. So it needs to be very good as far as I'm concerned.

Either that or we also nerf Power Chord while we're at it lol.

(Making it burst 1 would be more sane)

[quick quarry]

Honestly, Power Chord should be spend 1, if you ask me

Or, as you say, start burst 1, spend for burst 2 maybe?

[worn bane]

That would make sense, yeah.

Probably even spend 2 to increase to burst 2.

[quick quarry]

Turn about is Fair Play seems pretty good to me though; why is that one considered bad?

[worn bane]

So turning double edge to edge and double bane to bane isn't worth a trigger imo.

Then there's turning a bane to edge, or edge to bane. That is arguably worth a trigger.

But I'm not sure about that, even.

[quick quarry]

I mean, its roughly on par with inflicting an edge/bane (per the conduit) - and is more flexibile than conduits as it can do both?

[worn bane]

That trigger is kinda meh as well.

I don't think a trigger is worth an edge.

Basically consider that triggers are costed at about 3 HR.

Is 3 HR worth an edge?

[quick quarry]

The important thing too is negated leave open the option for additional banes/edges to fill the space. Normally, if you inflict a bane on an edge, youve neutralized it AND taken 2/4 from the stack, which means target could only still get an edge. But if you NEGATE it, then the stack is still 0/4 - which is a lot more tactically open for other teamwork options

IMO anyways - its all down to personal preference, so I won't say of course don't change it, but that one seems pretty good to me. It also works because Auteur can use maneuver to add edges/banes so it can use the two in tandem

[worn bane]

That seems like a very niche use-case to me.

[quick quarry]

I recall my players having a couple boss fights where they would LOVE to negate a double edge - often that can be the difference between 5 damage and a crippling condition or not.

[worn bane]

Sure, it's but is it worth a trigger and 3 HR to negate a double edge?
I'd say no.

[quick quarry]

Well, in one case, it would have prevented lycanthropy, so....shrugs

Hits different in a long form campaign where the party had to go out of the way to find a cure, and now my player has some ....side effects 😏

[worn bane]

Lol. But Hindsight is 20/20.
The Werewolf might have also just rolled a T1 and that would have mostly been a waste of a trigger and 3 HR.

Or he'd have rolled a T3 anyway and didn't need the double edge, then it'd have been a complete waste.

[quick quarry]

Well, the conduit has the ability to inflict double bane - I think part of the balancing is that in a party with a troubadour and conduit - its good that both their triggereds can be useful, to bring an ally from double bane to double edge or a monster from double edge to double bane; that's pretty powerful especially against solos

[worn bane]

And this is us discussing the best case scenario for this ability btw - on solos.

Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

[quick quarry]

True, but I do think some classes are built to excel against certain classes. I'd say Auter, Censor, Tactician, Null and Shadow are all very good anti-solo classes.

Where as classes like Talent, Elementalist, Fury, and Virtuoso are horde- facing classes (subclasses).

[worn bane]

Null isn't an anti-solo class. It's an anti-everything class lol.

[quick quarry]

Fair.

[worn bane]

I don't really agree with this evaluation but that might be getting off-topic.

[quick quarry]

Anywho - some changes in troubadour I like, some not so much. We can leave it there - as always; these are for people's table. Not my job to tell people they're having fun wrong and all that

I suspect in a year of games, the community will have whole NEW opinions about what is and isn't broken too

[worn bane]

I'm hoping those will just be my current opinions 😜

[cunning harbor]

I like Star power increasing crit range

Maybe 3 speed, +1 crit range, then spend 1 for min tier 2?

[ancient pewter]

just catching up on this convo

[quick quarry]

I presume it would just be by 1 (18-20)?

[cunning harbor]

Yeah

Though might need to slightly reword it and the weapon embedment so they don’t stack

Crit range gets better every point you have

+3% chance, +4% chance, +5% chance….

[quick quarry]

100%. I presume just have it say, you score a critical hit on a natural 18.

[ancient pewter]

interesting! so ur always gaining 3 HR, hypothetically!

i do see the arguement where appeal isnt as prevelent cuz the spenders arent super enticing, what do u think of that?

[ancient pewter]

okay taking a fine eye over these 3 costs

• harsh critic: i like this one, no changes
• hypnotic overtones: good, 2 burst for a dazed. potent
• quick rewrite: this one is meh. elementalist has a similar effect as a signature that deals more damage. bumping this to 4/6/7 perhaps? im not an expert on damage balance.
• upstage: i dont many of the taunt effects on troubadour are good enought to be portrayed here. giving this one a damage scaling ala tide of death (2/3/5) and removing the taunt is a good trade off, i feel?

[cunning harbor]

I like the taunt on upstage personally

It’s a very fun ability

[ancient pewter]

if youve had good experinces with it then ill take ur word for it

[cunning harbor]

Part of the trouble is just taunt being weak if you ignore it

[ancient pewter]

thats fair!

[cunning harbor]

I’m not saying it’s strong

But it’s fun

[ancient pewter]

any opinions on what to adjust on it

?

[cunning harbor]

I used it to great effect in the YouTube oneshot I was in

https://discord.com/channels/332362513368875008/1304450415164915833

[worn bane]

Generally agree with the assessment

[worn bane]

Maybe just buff the taunt effect in some way

While taunted by this abillity... something.

[ancient pewter]

effect: while taunted by this ability, you cannot achieve more than a tier 2 on ability rolls?

idk

that feels a bit too much for a 3 cost ability

effectwise

[worn bane]

Wait, I actually disagree with this assesment lol, I swapped Harsh Critic and Quick Rewrite in my mind

I actually think Quick Rewrite is very solid

It's Harsh Critic I feel is meh

[ancient pewter]

harsh critic has seen very good play in my group, what do u dislike about it?

[worn bane]

Interesting. I'll be honest, I've never seen it in play, it just seems a little too situational.
For one thing, it requires knowing the mosters abilities to best make use of, which most tables don't allow.

[quick quarry]

Upstage having damage would make it better than 100 throats, as its a maneuver

[worn bane]

And for another, you might just not have any monster in the combat that it's worth using on, even if you did know the effects.

[ancient pewter]

monster action choices are limited enough it can force u to do pittiful damage if its a low damage-high control effect, for instance

or a forced movement ability

its a good clutch option in solo fights

[worn bane]

It's just a big if. You might not have any monsters like that in the combat. And again, you might not even know the effects since it's closed information.

[quick quarry]

Personally, if you ask me - I think these issues are solved not by changing the abilities but by granting more. I let my players take 2 3 HR abilities at 1st level, and I feel that solves a LOT of issues; as a lot of abiliteis are good, but can be niche

[ancient pewter]

im taking all this info cuz i wanna write something like elementalist unbound, saying "oh just take more abilities at chara gen" isnt something im interested in

[worn bane]

That's another way to solve it. Not sure if it makes sense flavor-wise for the Troubadour in particular to have extra picks though.

[quick quarry]

Why would that not make sense for the Troubadour though?

[worn bane]

But I mean, I am whiterooming here based on my general experience. If you've seen good use out of it, that's great. I do recall you play with open information though, don't you? @ancient pewter

[ancient pewter]

only for stats and malice

[worn bane]

Arguably, I suppose.

[ancient pewter]

but i do describe and read every ability whenever i activate it

do other groups not do this?

[worn bane]

Anyway, Upstage - the effect would be better on a Fury, but as a Troubadour I don't feel it really gels with your class.

There's also just the matter of Taunt not being that great since you can ignore it pretty safely.

[ancient pewter]

i feel like the intent is for duelists, dip in, do a big taunt, then dip out so its hard for enemies to fulfill the taunt

[quick quarry]

Not every time - after a while, our group tends to know what abilities do what; descriptions usually come based on outcome. If your shadow uses Coup de Grace again, its not as cool unless it kills the target

[ancient pewter]

no i just mean like

[hoary anvil]

I pretty much do

[ancient pewter]

displaying and saying what the ability does

on a mechanical level

[worn bane]

I think most GMs just say what happens rather than describing what happens at every tier, and which part of the effect is tier-bound, and which isn't tier-bound (which is critical for Harsh Critic).

[quick quarry]

What do you mean by ignore it? Upstage is nice cause its a manuever shift your speed; alone that's handy - but you taunt things and then get away - which means their double bane unless they get up and get to you, which is hard if your a duelist. Its a super kite ability the way I read it

[worn bane]

Why is hard for them to get up to you if you're a duelist? Genuinely.

[ancient pewter]

im assuming star power

the issue is most things have equal or slightly below speed, so the argument is moot

[quick quarry]

well, minions are boned for 1, since they use their manuever; but also you still have your movement on top of upstate (not even counting star power, which is also a manuever). If you have a kit with speed bonus, you should be able to outrun just about everything.

[ancient pewter]

if i were to adjust this ability i would have it just impose a bane on the next ability roll they make? perhaps a bit weaker but its a mass debuff

[hidden void]

I think it really depends on in person vs vtt, and even then what vtt. We use foundry so it's easy to just post it to chat, but nobody goes through and reads it aloud each time. In person, we don't read it out everytime. Might just summarize it or whatever. It's like playing magic, you eventually pick up on the rough idea of what a thing does.

[quick quarry]

Artful florish gives you 3 square shift too - so duelist should be VERY mobile

[ancient pewter]

i read out every ability every time it happens, even on a vtt. i did the same irl. maybe this behavior isnt common.

[hidden void]

From what I've gathered, you run a very open information, mechanics focused game so that might be why.

I wouldn't say it's common.

[quick quarry]

I see the duelist as more of an off-tank role wise - they can't ALWAYS be the focus, but as a melee, they can jump in and give allies a reprieve for a turn; upstate does that very thing its 'hey, look at me' then lead the enemies on a merry chase while the conduit gets some people back up

[ancient pewter]

do people really not read out an ability when they activate it? that feels incredious

sorry sorry

getting off track

[worn bane]

I'm having a hard time imagining it working out like that but perhaps I need to just test it and see for myself.

[ancient pewter]

i think theres been a lot of good info about the 3 costs

[quick quarry]

I would say that the 3 costs don't need change - but troubador (and all classess for that matter) could simply use MORE ability choices. I'm waiting for the DS Power book that gives double the options myself. 😅

[ancient pewter]

my thoughts on the 5 costs:

• dramatic reversal: people have said this is very good and i agree
• fake your death: an interesting effect, but the duration isnt very long and its too stringent, i feel. maybe im wrong.
• flip the script: very situational, on demand teleports is a cool one tho. not sure if its worth the HR tho.
• method acting: not sure about this one, feels a bit weak. dunno why tho. maybe its the effect? the stamina sacrifice effect?

[worn bane]

Anyway, it's the 5 HR that are more problematic.

Fake Your Death doesn't do much.
I'm guessing it's meant to be a panic button. Make it let you use a recovery and actually make you hidden and it'd be fine.

[ancient pewter]

it breaks on manuevers tho

[worn bane]

wdym

[ancient pewter]

so i suppose u catch breath then ur okay to be targetted again?

oh i misread ur comment

i actually like the invis, i was just thinking it lasting until EoNT

[worn bane]

Invis is almost worthless lol. It just means you are concealed.

[ancient pewter]

mobility buff so u can use it in conjunction with a signature or a 3 cost at high victory couns

invis means u can hide

[worn bane]

OK so you use your action to hide?

[worn bane]

Also it doesn't because you're still observed I believe

[ancient pewter]

observed is kinda whatever cuz its very director dependent, what i believe the intent is is for you to strike someone, go invis, and run away

[quick quarry]

So, normally I would agree - but I would definitly feel the intent of the ability is that you can't be targeted by enemies while the illusion persists. I think if the director IS targeting you despite being invisible - that's going against the spirit of the ability

[ancient pewter]

cuz u would have 8 speed and ignore difficult terrain

[worn bane]

OK, but so long as enemies have LoS to you, you are still observed.

[worn bane]

OK, so make that explicit then.

[ancient pewter]

anyways, i think as is but making the duration longer is fine for me

[worn bane]

Anyway I just don't it being worth doing this then converting your action to a maneuver to hide.

[quick quarry]

That's fair. I think just adding 'while invisible, you are hidden.

[worn bane]

You are using your maneuver, action, and 5 HR to... Move and hide?

[worn bane]

That'd be ok... But I think adding a "use a recovery" would make it actually good.

Like, Shadow has a "teleport and hide while observed" maneuver that doesn't cost any HR. Are we saying it should cost 5 HR to mimic that effect?

[quick quarry]

If you're not a shadow, I think that's fine. Again, you can't always balance against other classes - otherwise you risk taking away their niche

[ancient pewter]

yeah

i think hidden + invis and increased mobility with a EoNT effect make it suitably strong

[quick quarry]

My shadow player would be rather pissed if another class can just take an ability that copies one of their core features

[worn bane]

I think it'd still be a never-pick tbh. It's still competing with Dramatic Reversal. But I won't continue hammering on.

[quick quarry]

I think spend a recovery is good on that one too though

[ancient pewter]

fair nuff

another one im sorta 🤔 is method acting

[worn bane]

Yes it's pretty bad lol. It's mostly because weakened is overvalued imo.

[quick quarry]

something I see with Method acting is if you do it right, you can potentially avoid the downside. If you use your action last, then you don't take bleed damage, and potentially save

The damage is the main bonus - potential 20 damage puts it on par with coup de grace or some fury abilities

[worn bane]

My suggestion would be make the effect "you bleed, they bleed" instead of 5 damage (which scales poorly).

[quick quarry]

realizing, I'm devils advocate alot for this convo 😅 👿

[ancient pewter]

that was my take on the damage

it scales poorly

[worn bane]

You could also make it double your Presence but it'd feel pretty bad on E1.

[ancient pewter]

but if its on par with coup de grace thats fine

[quick quarry]

ok, breaking my own rule here, but for comparison:

[ancient pewter]

i think the difference here is bleeding vs +5 dmg

the question is if those two things are an equivlent trade off

i see ur point about the intent

[quick quarry]

Its the trade off of guaruntee 5 damage up front (potentially killing opponent outright) vs letting them act before bleeding out

IF you play with monster health visible, being able to spend 5 and take down a bad guy could be very valuable - not to mention if you use it at the end of the fight, or are dying - bleeding is redundant.

[ancient pewter]

my experience is lots of folks dont

at least, that was my experience in playtesting

[worn bane]

So here's what I'd do with Method Acting.
Make the effect on the tiers bleeding instead of weakened. Then make the effect you bleed to do double your Presence in damage.

Maybe even triple?

(Again, it's competing with freakin' Dramatic Reversal guys)

[ancient pewter]

perhaps the issue is dramatic reversal then

[quick quarry]

seems more like dramatic reversal needs to be nerfed

[ancient pewter]

i personally think bleed for bleed is fine and more thematic

literally method acting!

[quick quarry]

here's the issue:

[worn bane]

I mean probably

[worn bane]

Yes, Blot out the Sun is literally worse than Dramatic Reversal

[ancient pewter]

okay so dramatic reversal

why not just remove the additional effects?

the difference is the amount u shift

[worn bane]

Honestly I'd just limit the # of targets

[ancient pewter]

what do u mean?

oh like

self and 2 allies?

or something

[worn bane]

This is the closest comparison (this is also very very good)

So we can't nerf Dramatic Reversal too much

[worn bane]

something like that

Perhaps you and 3 allies

[ancient pewter]

its a main so not exactly the same as now, but i think the added movement is a good example?

thoughts on removing additional effects?

[worn bane]

Yes, therefore it needs to be stronger

[worn bane]

I don't think that's make much of a difference honestly

[ancient pewter]

if its like

what if it was specifically melee free strike

[worn bane]

Hmm. It's definitely a big nerf.

[ancient pewter]

i def think it does

[worn bane]

Makes the ability comp dependent.

[ancient pewter]

removing edge and potential heal is big

i think thats fine, for draw steel

if u dont have the comp for it, pick another 5 cost

[worn bane]

Fair, so long as we sufficiently buff the other picks.

[ancient pewter]

finally @quick quarry @worn bane , thoughts on flip the script?

[worn bane]

Very situational.

Like in some situations it will be amazing

But most turns it doesn't have much use

[ancient pewter]

perhaps its worth putting a reminder in the ability teleport negates restrained

[quick quarry]

Its about on par with Divine Comedy. better actually since you choose the exact location rather than swapping. In the right circumstance, its clutch

[quick quarry]

and grabbed

[ancient pewter]

yeah

an aoe team teleport is cool

[worn bane]

So what if we just gave it an additional optional effect, and you could pick between the effects

[quick quarry]

RE: Dramatic Reversal - might be better to make it like NOW! and just limit it to 3 targets? you can target yourself?

[ancient pewter]

3 creatures, including urself?

[quick quarry]

correct

[ancient pewter]

i forget the exact wording for stuff like that

[worn bane]

But then it'd feel worse since it's an action and Now! is a maneuver.
So I feel like 4 creatures is the better way to go.

[quick quarry]

But, you still get the shift, the edge, and recovery on a T3

[worn bane]

You do. But I still feel like Now! would be better value.

[ancient pewter]

if the idea is to nerf it, i feel like putting more restrictions on the free strikes is needed

hence my idea to make it only melee and remove the additional benefits at higher tiers

if all thats changed is the number of targets, i still feel like its pretty good

[worn bane]

I think both approaches are fine. Just depends if you want to make it more situational or keep it generically useful.

[ancient pewter]

an HR spender u mean?

[quick quarry]

I will say in general, burst abilities that grant allies free strikes are a bit wierd, because it really does scale odd with party size; though I suppose encounters would also

[ancient pewter]

yeah i agree there

[worn bane]

It is odd, yeah

[worn bane]

I mean like Dramatic Monologue where you choose between effects

[ancient pewter]

i think giving it a limit on targets (3 or 4 is something you'll find out in testing)

[worn bane]

So it'd be either everyone teleport, or something else

[ancient pewter]

i think thats cool

what if it was teleport enemies or teleport heroes

tho i suppose the target is already specified

[worn bane]

You could just change it

"Target: Special"

[quick quarry]

teleporting enemies gets very dicey, I'd say leave that to higher level abilities

[worn bane]

Yeah, it is risky. Unless you specify the spaces have to be safe. Then it might be fine actually?

[ancient pewter]

fair nuff

[quick quarry]

BUT - burst 3, what if it was targets can choose one of the following: Shift 3 squares, free strike, OR spend a recovery?

[worn bane]

You would almost always pick free strike tbh.

[ancient pewter]

i think it has to be movement based, considering the flavor of the ability

[worn bane]

what about this

I think if you force safe spaces it's probably ok

[ancient pewter]

i was just about to reply to that, i think thats fine

i was also thinking less amount of targets

so like maybe 1 or 2 enemies, or self + 3 allies

[quick quarry]

as an aside - blot out the sun is just NOT worth 11 focus...maybe if targets made 2 free strikes...

[worn bane]

Yeah nowhere near

[ancient pewter]

time to make the tactician unbound!

😆

or wait for draw steel 1.5e

[quick quarry]

https://tenor.com/view/hyperventilate-nervous-sheldon-big-bang-theory-jim-parsons-gif-14089706

[worn bane]

Honestly there are many heroic abilities that aren't worth the cost

Just gotta wait for 1.5

[ancient pewter]

anyways

i like all of this

i think my troubadour has flip the script and harsh critic, so ill test these out

as well as the drama trigger change

what were ppl's thoughts about what tamwin brought up, about inverting appeal to the muses?

[quick quarry]

I still don't get the complaint about apeal to muses. It grants bonus HR to you or an ally. Seems fine to me

[ancient pewter]

no yeah it was just on my mind

i like what was brought up about it being moreso about the abilities

than appeal to the muses?

[worn bane]

I like what I said as well

[ancient pewter]

LMFAOOOOO

[quick quarry]

Yeah. Because you can give HR to any ally - it means you are weighing it against ALL your parties abilities, not just the troubadours.

[worn bane]

It's just free money

[ancient pewter]

my troubadour player brought this up to me too

"idk my party's abilities, and i def dont know YOUR abilities, so i cant make that call"

"best not to just take the chance"

[quick quarry]

That's probably the issue then - players should be learning what their allies can do. That's what the game is balanced around if you ask me.

[ancient pewter]

idk, prob not a discussion for here but i think this is very difficult

[quick quarry]

On that note - its something that becomes easier in longer campaigns. If you do shorter games where players change classes all the time, it'll make it harder for sure

[worn bane]

Honestly yeah.
But again even if you only use it for yourself it's good.

Btw we can also talk about 2nd level HR abilities

[ancient pewter]

my talent struggles enough deciding who to target with flashback

[quick quarry]

Honestly, you won't even have to learn everything, just asking 'hey, who needs HR right now', and trust that your allies got something good cooked up. That's the juice

[worn bane]

En Garde! is really bad imo, just because the monster always chooses to not free strike you. Why would they? They have pitiful free strike damage and yours is much higher.

[quick quarry]

"But what if they could Flashback twice in a fight?"

[ancient pewter]

i think the intent is to then riposte the free strike

[quick quarry]

But where' the fun in that?! That said - maybe make it forced behind a presence potency. P <average - the target free strikes you and you do it back?

[ancient pewter]

yeah

i agree

[worn bane]

Classic Chandelier Stunt is fine.
Tough Crowd and Encore are fine as well.
Guest Star and Twist at the End I don't quite know, gotta see it in practice and I never did.

[quick quarry]

Oooh yeah, you could get 2 out of that, coudn't you

[ancient pewter]

i think the hidden implication is ur supposed to take it cuz u wanna shoot ur monks

[worn bane]

Hmm?

[worn bane]

Yeah, that's what I think as well.

[ancient pewter]

basically the idea is monks can catch arrows in dnd

but why would i ever shoot a monk if they can catch an arrow?!

so the idea is u wanna do something counterproductive to let a PC do the cool thing

[worn bane]

OK so the ability is balanced around the director playing badly on purpose? Lol

[quick quarry]

A bit of DMing advice from DND. The idea is that a DM, you need to have your monsters attack heroes they are going to negate, or be disadvantaged against. Your heroes got abilities that make them cool, but only if they use them

[quick quarry]

Not badly - Roleplaying! The monsters want to win, but the monsters don't know what abilities the heroes have (typically)

[ancient pewter]

idk this is getting into director/gm theory

[worn bane]

The monster knows if they free strike, the hero free strikes, and the hero free strikes are stronger than its. Right?

[ancient pewter]

i think theres a solid argument for both sides

i find myself a proponent of not shooting ur monks

but draw steel encourages it

the monster book calls it out

[quick quarry]

How do the monsters know the heroes free strikes are stronger?

[ancient pewter]

anyways having a potency for the free strike trade is good

i like that

[worn bane]

This is getting too metagamey. I think on principle balance shouldn't hinge on GM fiat.

That's just bad design imo.

[quick quarry]

I disagree, with respect, but fair - discussion for another day.

[ancient pewter]

again, prob a discussion for another channel

theres many schools of thought on this

[quick quarry]

Oh, so scanning through - realized this does sort of make Star power redundant then, doesn't it?

[ancient pewter]

yeah, kinda

[worn bane]

Sure, my position is the balance of an ability shouldn't hinge on which school of thought the GM belongs to 😅

But I'll stop here, yeah.

[ancient pewter]

you can substitute my comment for "schools of design" if you like.

[quick quarry]

loved to chat more, but gotta jump. But before I go - I'll leave you all with this one - Solve THIS power:

[ancient pewter]

honestly this should be a revive, imo

"each target who is dying can spend a recovery"

or like

"regains stamina equal to their recovery value until they have at least 1 stamina"?

[worn bane]

Makes more sense yeah.

[ancient pewter]

so for star power, i liked what tamwin said (+2 speed, +1 crit range, 1 HR for auto tier 2), which would then stack with foil

#1321169055041716274 message

making star power's optional effect what u pop when ur fighting a non-foil target

[ancient pewter]

which one?

[worn bane]

The latter. The first is too like Revitalizing Limerick.

[ancient pewter]

i was looking at extensive rewrites btw - do other similar effects tie the stability ignoring to potency?

okay yeah i like the latter too

[worn bane]

I don't think so?

[ancient pewter]

so removing that makes sense to me, i feel?

[worn bane]

Well... It is a maneuver.

The amount of collision damage you can do with it even without the potency effect is a lot.

I think it's fine as is.

It's also a freakin' burst 4 mind you, HUGE area.

I'd focus more on buffing Star Solo, very sus ability imo.

Infernal Gavotte isn't great either.

We Meet At Last seems sus as well to me.

Extensive Rewrites is by far the best out of those 4 imo.

[ancient pewter]

what do u not like about infernal gavotte?

[worn bane]

It's not a lot of damage and imo weakened is a pretty lacklustre status.

[ancient pewter]

so a 5 cost burst 3 from conduit iirc is 4/6/10

this is 5/7/10

that seems on budget for me

[worn bane]

Oh actually, this is a weapon melee ability

So you get kit damage

Nevermind it's fine

[worn bane]

So generally just because something is on budget doesn't mean it's good to me, because I disagree with some of the budgeting

I think weakend is overbudgeted for instance

[ancient pewter]

well thats a whole other discussion, isnt it?

[worn bane]

It is, but it's also relevant when trying to make an "unbound" version of a class.

[cunning harbor]

IMO we need a different word per class

Troubadour Unsung

Tactician Unsheathed

Fury Unleashed

Maybe troubadour Untold?

[ancient pewter]

i like untold

[quick quarry]

Shadow Unseen, calling it now

Hmm...are they all Un prefixes?

[cunning harbor]

Yes

[copper ocean]

the big question is for Conduit and Censor, do we want it to convey that they've been separated (untethered) from their saint/diety or they are super close?

Because it pushes the boundaries of the prefix but I think I love Conduit Unified.

[ancient pewter]

the latter for me, imo

[copper ocean]

Censor is difficult to find one for.

[indigo lodge]

Uncensored LMAO

[copper ocean]

My mind goes to words like Unyielding, but I feel it needs to be usable in a past tense as well.

[flat obsidian]

Censor Unyielded is pretty cool

[grim haven]

Hmmm. Is there an Un- word that means the same thing as pitiless?

[copper ocean]

I really wanted to use Unmoved, but felt it sounded like we were talking about stability.

[flat obsidian]

Conduit untethered is pretty great

[grim haven]

Unmoved isn't bad at all. Even the stability interpretation works, sorta.
Unfeeling. Unyielding. Unmoved. Unoathed.

Unoathed?

Unsworn

[copper ocean]

I think we're looking for a feeling of ultra Censor or Conduit, not apostate.

[grim haven]

Hmmm fair.

Unbent?

[copper ocean]

I had that exact word just typed up.

[grim haven]

https://tenor.com/view/telepathy-telepathic-psychic-mind-reader-meld-gif-13614415

[unreal pawn]

it has to be this, please

[worn bane]

It kinda does.

[cunning harbor]

Conduit untethered is peak

[copper ocean]

I had Untethered for Null. It gives me enlightened monk vibes.

[cunning harbor]

Null Unbowed? Unbent?

Null Unarmed

[white moat]

guys please. i named the elementalist one that based on an off-hand comment from surfingbird 😭

[copper ocean]

But it's so fun.

[white moat]

all of them should at least refer to the class becoming greater than it was previously in some capacity

conduit untethered is peak

censor uncensored is very funny

[white moat]

fury unleashed is goated too

unsung is the wrong direction though you dont want to be unsung

[ancient pewter]

troubadour REtold

[white moat]

i think them all having uniquely cool names is better yeah. troubadour retold goes hard as fuck
that said if thats the case i should rename the elementalist unbound

[grim haven]

Elementalist Unaligned

[copper ocean]

I think the Censor and Conduit (the Conduit especially) will be hotly debated as some people see separating from the diety as greater and some people will see closeness to the diety as greater. I personally lean towards closer to their diety. An untethered Conduit isn't a Conduit.

[ancient pewter]

so i made the following adjustments to my troubadour player's stuff

[copper ocean]

Some actual homebrew coming in.

[grim flume]

Troubador: Director's Cut.

[ancient pewter]

• appeal to the muses goes in reverse order (1+2 HR, 1 malice/2+1 HR, 1 malice, 3+1 drama)
• drama triggers are now: crit, 1/combat winded, and 1/combat spend malice or villain action
• flip the script has two modes where it targets self + 3 allies to teleport 5 OR targets 2 enemies to teleport 5 (with the caviat that this teleport cant harm them)
• star power no longer costs HR, gives +2 spd and +1 crit threshold. has a 1 HR spend to give auto-tier 2
• riposte is now melee 1 or range 5
• added 2/3/4 damage on upstage

this way star power doesnt overlap with foil AND gives synergy with riposte

[grim flume]

Elementalist: Nuclear.

[ancient pewter]

thoughts on this?

[grim flume]

Censor: SCI (stands for Sensitive Compartmented Information, more restricted than Top Secret)

[copper ocean]

Sadly, I have no Troubadour player in my group so don't have an opinion on what needs fixing, but as much fun as naming hypothetical classes is, I appreciate bringing back the attention to actual useful stuff.

[ancient pewter]

lol

sorry yeah, im just always in need of feedback haha

[white moat]

nuclear elementalist is kinda 🔥 but i dont think its the vibe here

ok gang i have a magic item from 5e i need help instantiating into draw steel

its a toughie because its a very uhh

its designed to help be a playstyle focus

and i want to cut that down to be more like a DS magic item

...give me a sec if the r20 will load

[grim flume]

I agree. Just having some fun with it.

[grim flume]

Though, Director's Cut might actually work for Auteurs.

[white moat]

like i could give it d3s of ether dice but frankly i dont want to double up on heroic resources when i feel like it could just use a HR
the items for an elementalist with the weapon enchantment

my only thought was stealing stuff from the talent for it

honestly i should just steal #1381375764691161188 stuff lol

[white moat]

ok

i think i figured something out

on todays episode of cooking or cooked

Ether Channel: You gain the following heroic ability.

Channel Ether (3 Ether)

Keywords: Magic, Melee, Strike, Weapon
Type: Action
Distance: Melee 1
Target: 1 creature or object
Effect: Choose a heroic ability you have that either can target Self or is a Strike.

• If you chose an ability that targets Self, make a melee free strike against the target. You can use the heroic ability as a free maneuver targetting yourself.
• If you chose a Strike, you can use the heroic ability as a free maneuver, except it loses the Ranged keyword, gains Melee and Weapon, and targets the target of this ability instead.

hm

i might make it always free strike

yesss

(ether is the pc's renamed Essence for lore reasons)

if it was normal elementalist i'd just make this a 1 essence cost but since its unbound i can add this instead >:)

got it

OH I FORGOT A CRITICAL PART
it uses the same power roll

yeah i was overcomplicating it

ok done. i refuse to touch it further

[cunning harbor]

is that all at level 1?

[worn bane]

I don't see why limit number of targets on Flip the Script on either mode.

[worn bane]

I'd say make star power +Spees

[ancient pewter]

it does?

[worn bane]

Sorry I meant +4 lol

Morning brain

[ancient pewter]

so it doesnt scale with party size

[worn bane]

I don't think that really matters with a repositioning ability

Likewise with the enemy teleportation, no need to limit targets imo

[white moat]

no

this is level 5+

i lied and edited it more
level 1 is keen I (+1/+1/+1) and no arcane flow

anyway i'm thinking. percolating. about how hard the phrase "you have hazard immunity X" goes

for a ranger type beat

we're walking across lava in this bitch

[unreal pawn]

surely ether is uncountable so it should be "costs 1 less ether"

(that's the extent of my design feedback)

[white moat]

unfortunately in this instance ether is explicitly countable and divisible into heroic resource units soo

exploding you with my mind

[white moat]

elementalist unalloyed....

[unreal pawn]

elementalist unionized
(pronounced in either of the two ways)

[cunning harbor]

Summoner Unionized

[copper ocean]

Is this the Monado?

[white moat]

the monado? no. a xenoblade? absolutely 🙂

[copper ocean]

I have only played 1 and 2 and finished neither, so I am not well versed in the lore.

[white moat]

each game has a cool sword
the monado is the one from 1

2 has the aegis and 3 has lucky 7 aka the sword of the end

[hidden void]

Is this...a monado? 🫴 🦋

[white moat]

its actually the Autonomous Systems Tracking Routine and Artificial Evaluation Assistant

[white moat]

todays episode of cooking or cooked: specifically goron roll as an ancestry trait

[ancient pewter]

i would take one or the other, but not both

[copper ocean]

Love it.

[white moat]

is this to me

[ancient pewter]

yeah

[copper ocean]

Do you have to move 3+ squares to get the edge or just on any charge?

[white moat]

charge

[white moat]

wdym both

both what

parts of goron roll?

[ancient pewter]

yes

[copper ocean]

I like the idea of you having to charge a certain amount to get the edge like the spikes in Majora's Mask.

[quick quarry]

agreed. You an add grounded in AFTEr, but I'd do treated as 1L for signature.

[worn bane]

Made these two kits alongside my Scion class. Might be of interest to someone.

[ancient pewter]

love these

excellent vibes

i really wish mcdm would make their iconography public

[worn bane]

I did find the source for their 'Target' icon online. Gotta pay for it though.

Oh, and thanks!

[hidden void]

I found a few that were free and similar that I could share later when I'm home.

[ancient pewter]

the iconography for the monster book is so fucking good i wanna integrate it into player abilities

[worn bane]

https://www.istockphoto.com/vector/target-acquisition-solid-icon-gm1367724211-437898816
I'm pretty sure this is one for one what they used for target.

[hidden void]

Used em to make ability pages for my players. They weren't into the card idea sadly.

[worn bane]

Btw @ancient pewter if you like the vibes on this you might like the vibe of the entire Scion class because it's kind of just that.

[ancient pewter]

yeah ive been checkin it out

[hidden void]

I had remade the ability layout for in Affinity to use for my in person's sessions. Not the most up to date versions. Made a few changes since.

[worn bane]

What's Affinity?

[ancient pewter]

its a layout software, effectively

[ancient pewter]

this is very good

have u looked into potentially integrating the monster icons?

[hidden void]

Not really.

[ancient pewter]

gotcha

[hidden void]

I can see why some people would like it, myself included, but I find my players prefer less abstraction in the information being presented. Especially since they're still learning the game coming from 5e mostly

[worn bane]

Is the monsters RC more icon-ized than the heroes book?

[ancient pewter]

yes

[worn bane]

Huh. I wonder why have that difference.

[flat obsidian]

it seems like in general directors want (and benefit) from symbols in a way that players do not, at least that is what I observe with my players and myself

my players struggle enough with the idea of keywords, I don't want to add more non-english information they need to parse hahaha

[hoary anvil]

This is really nice! Would you be willing to share the file?

[ancient pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1064726272221130863/1397439370511781918/image.png?ex=68850615&is=6883b495&hm=15b477c45dc157889e84ffa4f8af1dbb21d7127d331a9c0e9aed0f202dbf7f83&

idk why, maybe a space thing

but also monsters have more exceptions than heroes

[quick quarry]

Something I've had on the backburner, but debating - how well would having non-class specific Heroic Kit abilities work do you think. Idea is for each kit, you could have optional 3/5/7/9/11 HR abilities that characters could pick in lieu of their class ability?

[hidden void]

At some point, yeah! I've been building myself a bit of a template. Using Affinity Designer. At some point I need to get their publishing software haha

[ancient pewter]

this is cool

[hidden void]

I also remade the character sheet by hand with a few of my own tweaks my group found useful.

Haven't bothered to make it form fillable yet. Haven't found the need.

[quick quarry]

Main thing is it would be a LOT of abilities - X number of kits times 5 O.o

[hidden void]

If anyone is curious. We track inventory, downtime, etc in a Google sheet. So I moved things around to be more desirable for our group. There's a few things that are missing (wealth, renown) but didn't find a great spot for it and it doesn't come up enough that it's an issue arm. Still revising things as we play with them.

(there are probably some minor errors in here, I don't think this is the most up to date one I have done)

Could probably tuck wealth and renown in on the central column if I decrease the height on the complications section.

[flat obsidian]

do you record abilities somewhere else? or do they all go in class features?

[hidden void]

They're just on a different sheet!

They happen to be two seperate files on my PC for how I work on them

[flat obsidian]

oh gotcha! makes sense, the design is really good

[hidden void]

That was meant to be an exclamation not a question mark. Apologies for the unintended snark XD

[worn bane]

Hmm, probably so

[cunning harbor]

I’d probably make it be in addition

[cunning harbor]

I’m generally not a huge fan of most “charge+” ancestry abilities because they tend to be really good for berserker fury / vanguard tactician, and pretty meh for everyone else

Balance is fine for everyone but those classes

[white moat]

then everyone else just picks different abilities

also the player is playing a vanguard tactician

[cunning harbor]

One of the core tenants of draw steel design is “no trap options”

Now, one of the sneaky ways to get around the charge favoritism, is by buffing any free strikes made as part of a charge

[quick quarry]

Is that a core tenant? Or just a suggestion?

[hoary anvil]

It's a pretty core tenet yes, that's why build options are more limited but more impactful

[ancient pewter]

its also why choices are limited

[white moat]

its also why youre allowed to swap out options if they dont vibe with you

there are a number of ancestry features that overlap with class features
if it doesnt work out sub it out

i was more asking if it was secretly cracked

if its not then im chilling

[ancient pewter]

coming back to some of my implement treasures. how does this one look?

[cunning harbor]

Pretty good! I recall it coming up before at some point?

[ancient pewter]

yeah, im just returning to some stuff and giving it fresh eyes

[indigo lodge]

the bonuses seems better on a rogue type character but it's on a staff?

[ancient pewter]

its an implement

so i suppose it would be better for a shadow, but shadows are martials

[indigo lodge]

shadows can still use implements, and they can still benefit from this one even if they already have a weapon treasure

[ancient pewter]

not really something im worried about anyways, since no one in my game is playing a shadow

[indigo lodge]

what kind of character do you imagine using this if not a shadow?

[ancient pewter]

a conduit who has the invis ward, for one

troubadors, due to their emephasis on shifting

[indigo lodge]

but then, only one of the benefits between 1st and 5th would be useful to them?

[ancient pewter]

i think hiding while observed is a pretty powerful benefit

it removes the biggest restriction on hiding, imo

oh talent also has an invis ward

[indigo lodge]

but the invis ward only lasts until the end of your next turn, if you're using that invisibility to hide then you'd be revealed right away

[ancient pewter]

im always open to suggestions, if you think another effect would fit better

in either case, ive done some adjustments to an old implement treasure that was giving me some trouble

i was actually considering about changing the wording so it only effects enemies of equal meat value or greater (aka non-horde or minion monsters)

dunno how to word that

[indigo lodge]

my feedback is basically the effects seem underwhelming, but it looks like we disagree on that

[proper shell]

hows this for a bugbear trait? its basically 1:1 identical to the NPC bugbear triggered action. im more so wondering if anyone has any better ideas for the flavor text lol

[copper ocean]

We've just got to stop meeting like this

[indigo lodge]

not RAW but you can probably just say "Platoon or stronger" and it would get the idea across

[ancient pewter]

what i wrote down was a non-Minion or Horde monster

[indigo lodge]

that could be read as including hordes, "not a minion nor horde" might be clearer?

[proper shell]

oh thats much better. way less horny-coded lol

[ancient pewter]

that works, thanks!

[dreamy cypress]

Thoughts on (homebrew) kits that use +0/0/4 for light weapons? Feels better for assassin archetypes where you're often getting one or more edges on rolls from concealment or your party has a lot of supports.

[hoary anvil]

I've seen people suggest it for exactly that reason

[charred gale]

I made misericord kit for that purpose.

#1321169055041716274 message

[quick quarry]

Do it!

[frail finch]

Does anyone have a google docs template for laying out a custom class?

[hoary anvil]

https://discord.com/channels/332362513368875008/1389036975104856166

[frail finch]

Thanks!

[indigo lodge]

Has anyone made a list/sheet of what kinds of features classes and subclasses for each level? like if a feature is an ability vs combat bonus vs respite bonus vs negotiation bonus

[ancient pewter]

i made one but not to that level

[indigo lodge]

It’ll be a good starting point at least, thanks!

Wait, why is Both separate from Class?

[ancient pewter]

those are unrelated to ur class (aka stat increase and perks)

[indigo lodge]

Ah i see, non-uniques basically

[ancient pewter]

basically unless the class is REALLY WACKY every class will have those at those levels

[indigo lodge]

first draft of something like this for the censor, would this be something useful for someone making a homebrew class/subclass?

[ancient pewter]

this looks excellent

[frail finch]

Looks super useful
What's the difference between the different coloured cells?

[cunning harbor]

yes, for sure

[indigo lodge]

Nice, I’ll do the rest of the classes then

[indigo lodge]

Greens are features that every class gets to choose from the same pool of options,
blues are features that are the same type but has options unique to the class,
Reds are features that can be different types between classes

Probably hard to tell from just looking, so I’ll include an explanation for the final version, but does the logic seem consistent/makes sense for what I have categorized for the censor?

[frail finch]

Makes sense, but not sure it's 100% consistent
Eg. From your explanation I would've expected the Censor signature to be blue

[indigo lodge]

Oh you’re right that’s a mistake

Everything else should be good I think?

[shy grotto]

It'll be interesting to see how the other classes pan out with this, I wonder what similarities and differences there are.

[shy grotto]

Actually, this is the sort of thing I could maybe automate and add into Forge Steel as a tool for homebrewers? Would that be useful?

[hoary anvil]

I think that would be kickass. I did find the current method of preloading a giant stack of all abilities and then giant stacks of stuff per-level hard to navigate

I got there without too much trouble in the end, but a structure would be awesome

[cunning harbor]

We need to come up with more triggered actions for Ajax

needs to have one to counter every class

[hoary anvil]

For summoner and beastheart you mean?

Or you want bespoke ones per class

[quick quarry]

"You call that an army?" - Ajax summons demons in response to a summoner

[indigo lodge]

progress update, the stormwight is so quirky

[chilly frigate]

Part of why I look forward to DS is because it genuinely sounds like a cool game. Part of it is because this is another chance to try to create a Card Magician class >:)

[indigo lodge]

ooh cool, wanna share what you have?

[chilly frigate]

I currently don't have anything tbh, aside from that their class resource being "Draws". No idea how they build them. I think the utility from their abilities would come from how exactly they draw. A low cost ability may just be pulling one card to either stash or play immediately, a higher cost could be draw x cards and choose y to play immediately. So in the realm of entirely theoretical homebrew, they would probably still have possibilities for a null result. That's probably still better than to have their resource be their deck, because then it's attrition, entirely counter how this game plays. That was the solution for 5e for example, where I essentially co-opted spell slots to let you cast random spells based on the pull

[indigo lodge]

ah you're drawing actual cards, @lofty pasture is working (?) on a Gambler class that also does this, I don't think he's shared it here though, might be helpful to bounce your ideas off one another

[ancient pewter]

classes are pretty asymmetric in draw steel

[indigo lodge]

personally I would try to simulate card hands through dice roll if I were doing something like that

[chilly frigate]

Yeah, the goal would be to give a way to convert poker cards into spells for general consumption. Tbh I mostly want the structure to be sound so that, on my table, I could work with a given player and have them collect yugioh cards to fill their deck and make a truly unique experience. What else are you gonna do if you still believe in the heart of the cards over a decade after playing for the last time and have a conservative 2000 cards sitting around? :P

[indigo lodge]

ooh, changing your deck for your class advancement is very cool

[chilly frigate]

That's why I think this could actually work with relatively few compromises in this system. I only tried it in 5e, and it would've either been too strong or too unreliable if I personalized it so radically beyond just a risky way to cast your spells. Never did much with that design beyond like two character tests, because it never felt right

[chilly frigate]

Yeees. One of the things I want to do should I get this off the ground is giving players a choice on level up between "opening a booster" or buying cards. So the former would be add a few cards, one is something the player is working towards and the x others (maybe only 1 or 2) be literally random, whereas buying would mostly be getting duplicates with some weird stuff thrown in if the player wants to engage with that. That way the class should ideally support both players who want wildly different, low-reliabilty but unique situations as their main thing and players who just want to focus on what works with a side of spice

[ancient pewter]

crackin packs in a trpg, u love to see it

[indigo lodge]

I think the any rng should be limited to between respite/vitories at most, since permanent upgrades would feel reaaaally bad if you draw a bad pack

[chilly frigate]

I'll be interested to see how the summoner works later on, because I saw the "Crash Landed" complication and kinda want to include a summoner version of this at some point for my partner who's INTENSELY Genshin Brained, so she can "pull" her units instead of spell effects

[indigo lodge]

you don't get the privilege of resetting in like balatro for example

[chilly frigate]

definitely. I'll mostly focus on in-combat things anyways. Not having played the system and living vicariously through Forge Steel, I definitely don't want this to just be the solution to everything with enough pulls

[ancient pewter]

this is awesome

i approve

[chilly frigate]

I've always wanted to play a proper summoner in anything, be it ttrpg or video games or whatever, but I think the true soul a well made summoner fits on the most is my partner, with the Genshin obsession and also her favourite magic from Fairy Tail is the Stella Keys, which is also people summoning ^^

[cunning harbor]

It can effect multiple (like the fury/censor), but there needs to be one for each class yeah. I just mean the core 9

[ancient pewter]

thinking of making the final boss for my campaign The Omnivok

[cunning harbor]

Ooh, I like

[ancient pewter]

wanted to ask folks what some ideas for abilities or mechanics of a solo likr that would be

[cunning harbor]

Well, it’s probably just size 1M right?

It’s whole thing is being a fully person creation

Definitely steal stuff from the Valok stat blocks

…ooh, maybe it “learns” from the players?

So whenever a character spend their resource, it get it

And then can spend the resources in themed effects

[ancient pewter]

since this is homebrew for my campaign, i can design it around my party

[cunning harbor]

Yup

[ancient pewter]

i was thinking

based on the learning theme

ofc the valok trait

but it also gets a trait that it cycles through based on the hero who went first?

[cunning harbor]

That’d be another way of handling it

Ideally structure it so that they are incentivized to have it be different people each round?

[ancient pewter]

it can have one of two triggered actions, one for the tactician and one for the....idk

talent?

[cunning harbor]

I don’t think you need to do the Ajax triggered action thing

[ancient pewter]

hmmm fair

what if it just copies an ability

for a triggered action

[ancient pewter]

yeah

i was also think it could gain additional immunities based on it, too

sorta the bit from xmen

[cunning harbor]

Maybe it gets immunity from the last attack against it?

So the party needs to alternate damage types

[ancient pewter]

ive tried stuff like that

its a pain to track

[cunning harbor]

Fair

[chilly frigate]

Not knowing anything about the creature or high level DS, that gave me an idea for a silly one-shot end boss called The Sarcastic Dick.
The ability could be called "Oh Wow, I can do that too", where someone calls out their ability (e. g. Hesitation Is Weakness) and TSD sarcastically says "Oh wow, hesitation is weakness? I can do that too!" and does whatever the ability lets you do immediately before it can be used by the player. So it doesn't disrupt their plan for their turn (or they can adjust, but either way they have to go then) and it's really grating, so the players just want to kill TSD even more xD

[indigo lodge]

https://youtu.be/WO23WBji_Z0?si=fXY15XDZbRTWesYU

[chilly frigate]

ooooh, blast from the past

[quick quarry]

Also, stuff like Ajaxs triggered abilities to counter the party too

[ancient pewter]

tamwin brought this up LOL

also!

tested out my house rules to troubadour today

mainly testing out @cunning harbor 's idea of reversing the appeal to the muses table

granted my troubadour player rolled 3s every turn AND got 2 crit procs

but it def felt a lot better, they said

[quick quarry]

main question is - did it seem a lot more powerful?

[ancient pewter]

they used their 7 cost once, which was on par with the rest of the party (everyone was either 2x 5 cost or 1x 7 cost + 1x 3 cost)

[white moat]

todays episode of cooking or cooked (dasks player dont look at this one)

i think the jump from awakened to exalted is kinda mid but i ran out of steam with two cool ideas 😔

its for an oracle censor

i could do something like ||creatures cant hide from you|| or something

[quick quarry]

Ok, so it says leveled, but how does the item work? (also, DS feels like it needs a category of item between leveled treasure and artifact - or Artifact needs to include items that aren't always world changers)

[hoary anvil]

FoBB does have just "treasures" that are not leveled nor trinkets, like Hunt's Axe

[white moat]

its a levelled treasure

it just works like a levelled treasure

i called the tiers fancy names but its just 1/5/9

[quick quarry]

Oh really?! I haven't checked it out since it was updated - I should do so

[white moat]

oh shit i didnt know that

well regardless

[quick quarry]

Ok, so the hammer works with a clarity user, but talent doesn't get kits - is the intention that they can use it regardless of kits? @white moat

[white moat]

oh

no the weapon is called Clarity

i can see the confusion

lmao

i could rename it

[quick quarry]

Aaah yeah. Oh, its GSB - are you converting, or just using the art?

[white moat]

latter

[quick quarry]

Ok, so I think I'm going to start plinking on some of my magic item ideas. But rather than try to get them all done in a rush - I'll just do a couple. SO - Which one should I start with?

[white moat]

synchronicity

[ancient pewter]

GHOST BLADE!

[cunning harbor]

Wrack

[copper ocean]

Obviously the Holy Bolter. It has holy in it. Wrack and Titan Talons seem interesting too.

Oh. I also need to know what Knightsong does.

[ancient pewter]

this is awesome

[quick quarry]

Ok, I can do those 2 more:

[copper ocean]

That is awesome. 👌

[ancient pewter]

ah not an 40k bolter, booooo 😝

[copper ocean]

The Wrack is dangerous.

[quick quarry]

I sort of imagine it as a sinewing flesh net made from a Synleri's body...so....yeah 😅

Ok, and last one for now...maybe:

[quick quarry]

Not quite - more Van Hellsing than 40k

[hidden void]

These are cool!

[quick quarry]

Ok, so apparently I'm on a roll - here is Titan Talons:

Ok, this one is probably my favorite - but not sure how balanced it is:

[worn bane]

Seems rather weak to me personally.

[quick quarry]

So, the idea is its REALLY useful for setting up flanking - because you can use Aid - ally moves into position, then you have an edge, and they have a double edge

[worn bane]

Doesn't seem to make doing that much easier than without it though. The ally can just move into position on their turn, and if you want to flank the range on the aid is irrelevant. Or am I missing something?

[quick quarry]

They ally shifts on YOUR turn - so you use maneuver, ally shifts, THEN you use your main action to attack (now with flanking)

that being said, I imagined this weapon as a spear, so maybe I should add some option that indicates you can flank when you're not adjacent, but still opposite?

[worn bane]

That makes sense to me.

[quick quarry]

this should make it clearer:

[proper shell]

ive mentioned a couple of times that im gonna have an ancestry compendium ready for release by the time the hardcovers start shipping, but life is getting in the way. so theres a good chance i wont get to hit that deadline

mechanics are like 90% done. doing some last minute adjustments based off of feedback and then its on to the lore write ups (ive been excited to do this part!), but i can only fit time for that sparingly. after that itll be on to formatting (no art for this one. if im gonna have any art in my future products itll be my own creations)

[hoary anvil]

@proper shell @humble wyvern Just a random thought since I think converting wealth to that exact mechanic might be hard: heroes can spend wealth as HR? 👀

Or convert it like 1 wealth = 2 or 3 HR, like some epic resources?

[proper shell]

thats probably the simplest way to port that mechanic over

but theres probably a more dynamic idea in there somewhere

[hoary anvil]

I like the elegance though

You could make special wealth-only heroics too

And the party could pool together to use em

[proper shell]

we need a Capitalist class that uses Wealth as their HR

[quick quarry]

Or, perhaps at least a Wealth Conduit?

[proper shell]

Greed Domain

for the villains book