Random discussion

[deep meteor]

Which could even be part of the prerequisites, you come across a leveled treasure unsupported by your kit

[quick quarry]

Yeah, I could go either way. Its hard to know now without testing if 1 or 2 features is grossly overpowered. My idea was, in this case - a title to give a character a bonus to ranged damage and distance with weapons.

Another idea I just had though is - what if you just get the signature ability of the kit, with no change to its bonuses (basically, you apply the benefits of the kit to that ability only)?

[deep meteor]

I like that idea! I think as long as you come up with something that's somewhat stronger than one of the mixed melee/ranged kits like cloak&dagger or raider, but notably weaker than tactician, you're in a good spot.

[quick quarry]

Looking for some feedback, but is this too much for a 4th level feature:

[cunning harbor]

I don't like any ability that is just "you don't need to care about [game system] any more. I'd rather have something like "you get +1 to crafting rolls for each language you know", as an example. Be more about uilding up, and encouraging interacting with systems.

1 renown isn't very much, so that part is probably fine even within the broader ability. "person with a crafting skill" is a little wierdly worded, is there a reason you said that instead of "a crafter", or other diegetic phrasing?

The third bit I might make take a little longer than just "a touch", at least for the knowing the specifics of it. Being able to figure out exactly what an item does could potentially mess up some adventures "what does this mysterious amulet do? Hang on I'll just touch it" but I do think it fits in line with an artificer, and itsn't otherwise broken.

Overall, I don't think it's too much power, but it's definitely cramming a lot of stuff in together. I might split it up into separate abilities just to make clear you get multiple things.

[charred gale]

Yeah I agree you’d get more mileage spiting these features up over a few levels.

There’s definitely already a feature in the game that lets you be fluent in all languages for project rolls. So I think that part is fine.

[wanton raptor]

Hey I just tried to make the Autophage from the Chain of Acheron game into a DS solo, would anyone be interested in giving some feedback? I tried to post in the homebrew channel but then I messed up the post and now im locked out for 6 hours XDDD. If anyone is interested shoot me a DM and I will share the word doc.

I guess Ill just throw it in here thats probably easier XD

[quick quarry]

I mean, that first one I stole from the conduits blessing of comprehension, so its already in the game. The thrd bit I more or less copied from void elementalist. So, are you saying that you disagree with those features in the core rules?

[quick quarry]

Its hard to know the formatting until the final version is out - there are a few features in other classes that seem to have 2 or three different bonuses all crammed into one paragraph; but its not always consistant 😕

Also, regarding the renown refering to skill, I also saw precedent for it here:

[cunning harbor]

Yup, and I kind of hate blessing of comprehension lol. Just because it’s base game doesn’t mean I like it.

The third ability I’m fine with, just pointing out potential issues it could cause

[cunning harbor]

I think my main question is, why does the artificer get a renown? What’s the fantasy you are trying to capture

Because depending on that answer, might change how I think the ability should be worded

Because a small crime lord who cares little for creation might still have Forgery as a skill, but a rich noble who is a connoisseur of magical creations probably wouldn’t have any crafting skills

[quick quarry]

I think it has something to do with being a recognized exceptional crafstmen, but not sure how else to describe it atm.

[ancient pewter]

(question forwarded from general chat)

[quick quarry]

As a matter of fact, I have!

I used it to sort of used the monk of long death as a model, and think I came up with something interesting. Let me see if I can pull up what I had here

Ok, so this was definitly a WIP, but if people are interested, I can go and finish this out: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g1VmULwdxIo6Tkmj2bPjrXOI5I4yUDZgnUwjp6if4Lw/edit?usp=sharing

[ancient pewter]

oh sorry, talent not null

[quick quarry]

Aah! ok. Not I then

[karmic prairie]

Hello. Has anyone figured out how to apply Draw Steel's exploration montages to something more like an overland gameboard?

I don't mean anything on the scale of a supplement, but a way to have the difficulty of the montage be coming from the map and the world itself.

[cunning harbor]

I think the way to do it would probably be something like assigning a "difficulty" modifier to each hex/point/path, then based on the total difficulty of the trip determin if it's no/easy/medium/hard montage

So you'd say something like "The road from City A to City B is 1 point, the road from City B to Town C is 1 point, the forest of gloom is 2 points, and the mountains of doom are 3 points. So this is a 7 point montage". Then you check your table and see that anything 6+ is considered a hard montage, so you run that.

[karmic prairie]

Huh, that could work. It can even work with stuff like airships, or sea vessels.

But what about larger maps with more hexes? Wouldn't that essentially be montage test after montage test? And how much time should it take?

[karmic prairie]

I could probably borrow the idea of a domain turn by allowing it for one a day, 7 per week, but I would probably need to stick with smaller regions instead. Not until airships, ships, and stuff like teleportation devices come in.

In which case, would be multiple hexes for one point, like 2, 3 or more.

[karmic prairie]

It would also have to be in environments that are immediately dangerous and filled with threats.

Like having a stronghold/headquarters in a crime ridden city, a fantasy Amazon jungle, or the demonic, Abyssal Wasteland.

[indigo lodge]

Has anyone tried homebrewing the operator? If not, have the devs talked about what they plan for operators to play like?

[ancient pewter]

all we have are old 2d6-era ideas for it

im sure you could do ur own spin on the vague idea

[indigo lodge]

Do you know where I can find these ideas?

[ancient pewter]

#ds_general message

[indigo lodge]

Perfect, thank you! 🙏

[charred gale]

If someone did do a homebrew fork off the Null with weapons, what would we call it? 🤔

(similar to how Illrigger is presumed to be a small deviation from Censor with it’s own class).

I was thinking something “Prime” / “Aleph” / “Omega”

I don’t necessarily want to homebrew myself. 😅 I just want to influnce the discourse with a cool name, since it seems inevitable that someone will do it eventually.

[karmic prairie]

@ancient pewter were you able to find the progress clocks in regards to Draw Steel and villain goals?

[ancient pewter]

i think they are in the patron channel, im not a patron anymore so i cant find em

[quick quarry]

You thinking of a name? Maybe Siphon?

[ancient pewter]

but i stole the whole thing from a lancer homebrew called arms race

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqcCBPtrsyp9hVI2aKMGRPCfQXnx5j0r8T-B4zWQyqU/edit?tab=t.0

ignore the stuff about plans, the main thing is about setting out minor/major goal clocks and ticking them up when the heroes respite

completing party goals (like collecting a mcguffin) or defeating enemy lieutenants can tick these down

[karmic prairie]

Alright. It looks worth checking out.

Thanks man.

[ancient pewter]

is it possible for you to find what i spoke about if ur a patron? or like see if its there?

if u find it lmk

[karmic prairie]

A patron to MCDM? Sure. What's the title again?

Or do you mean like a patron exclusive channel on this server?

[ancient pewter]

the latter

[charred gale]

Ooooh Siphon is good

[ancient pewter]

has anyone figured out some cool iconography for stuff? like the ⚡ for surges

i was thinking about some way to denote +[stat] (a number of times)

if that makes sense

[indigo lodge]

So like ✊ 🦶 🧠 👁️ 🌹 for MARIP?

[ancient pewter]

why the rose?

but yeah

[meager arrow]

https://tenor.com/view/rose-sailor-moon-love-anime-sad-gif-17745094

[karmic prairie]

Cowboy Bebop?

[indigo lodge]

How is that rose standing straight up like that

[meager arrow]

https://tenor.com/view/sailormoon-sailor-moon-anime-manga-gif-5833442

~magic~

[karmic prairie]

I haven't found it, but reading through Lancer: Arms Race, this definitely sounds like what I am looking for.

Adversaries might need to be spread throughout echelons, but it's def what I can use.

[ancient pewter]

dope, if u need some advice lmk im running an arms race campaign rn

[karmic prairie]

Thanks.

And thanks to whoever created the monster math homebrew. It really helps for Unit Upgrades.

[karmic prairie]

Looking at the Arms Race one, I think it's exactly what I need, but could use some advice on how to balance and include some things.

For example, for some holdings, could there be a roll or adversary downtime cost of having it be harder to reach?

Say, requiring a sea ship, or airship to get to?

Or maybe certain difficulty montage tests via exploration to reach?

[ancient pewter]

yeah that tracks to me

especially if its the throne

[karmic prairie]

Cool. And what about the teleportation device?

[ancient pewter]

what do u mean?

[karmic prairie]

Trying to figure out how to incorporate this unless it's the idea of going back from the ship/airship back to base.

[ancient pewter]

oh

this is a lot of PP, heroes can have a treat and unlock fast travel system

[karmic prairie]

So trying to make multiple would be more trouble than is worth unless they dedicate themselves to it?

[cunning harbor]

For some comparison, a fully complete treasure or Echelon 3 trinket is 450 points. So it costs more than a full hero worth of leveled treasures.

[karmic prairie]

Jesus, that's a lot..

[cunning harbor]

Depending on how much downtime they have available or the number of retainers they have working on it in the background, it could be doable. But it's by no means cheap.

[karmic prairie]

I can see them making two at most for the purposes of one at the base, and one at the ship to get more supplies, and retainers if they start to suffer heavy losses.

[cunning harbor]

It's a big investment to connect to other teleport platforms. Not really a build a network by yourself sort of thing.

If you want to give the party one, I'd give them some resources that add a chunk of project points

or have them loot it somewhere

[karmic prairie]

I can see it being a reward for taking out a throne hold for a faction.

[cunning harbor]

oooh, yeah for sure

[ancient pewter]

this rules so hard

[karmic prairie]

Heck, if they're going to cut off the head of the snake, might as well get something cool for it.

Especially if it is going against a faction with upgrades, units and traits from the Arms Race.

It's really starting to come together.

[ancient pewter]

if i ran an arms race campaign in draw steel i wouldnt do upgrades

draw steel is a lot less modular and paced than lancer

[karmic prairie]

In that case, what can replace them?

I do see a Monster Math homebrew that could be helpful. Would small stat bonuses work as a replacement?

[ancient pewter]

i would just cut it out and have arms race just act as the pacing mechanism for villain schemes

[karmic prairie]

I might just give it a shot to see what happens. I think it might be at least worth playtesting a bit with solo play.

I need more practice with the rules anyway.

[cunning harbor]

Would treasures work?

Never looked at Lancer Arms Race, so no idea

but that's the main non-level power in draw steel

[ancient pewter]

treasures could be a reward for taking down enemy holdings

[cunning harbor]

either complete or just the crafting ingredient

[ancient pewter]

or an adjustment to the stability check

[ancient pewter]

yee

[cunning harbor]

Also titles, but I think they should be for special/cool situations, rather than the default reward

[karmic prairie]

There are already perks I think that can cover a lot too

The more I think about it, it kind of reminds me of Phoenix Point. The game Gollop made as a throwback to the version of XCOM he made. The original one.

[karmic prairie]

That's kind of the feeling I am looking for, actually. Something that allows for a lot of choice on both side, and strategic along with tactical tension.

[ancient pewter]

arms race rules, im loving it

especially if ur players are like local leaders

[karmic prairie]

That's the hope.

Thinking of styling them as survivors of the Chains of Acheron after Ajax destroyed it after Black bottom.

[ancient pewter]

thats dope

[main pawn]

@brisk blade (continuing from #ds_patrons message) Just as a short note, I didn't read what James Introcaso wrote as "spending" victories, but as a condition for when you get another use of it. Just like "I gotta wait until I've had a respite", it's "I gotta wait until I've earned X victories", in neither case you spend the respite/victories resetting them. For an example, check the Mask of Oversight (Patreon packet p. 273), or the Getting Too Old For This complication (p. 198)

[ancient pewter]

dont have access
could i have some further context?

[main pawn]

Sure thing:

Later Putte responded with:

Secondly, hmm, i like the concept of spending victories for an item, but i also feel like a victory is a very expensive resource to spend.
Thinking about it, the item is supposed to channel pure willpower, so it might be fair to just have it use whatever class resource/malice that the wielder has access to. I think it'll work out well for what i want if for, thanks for the tip

So the topic might already be finished, but I thought it apt to mention that there was another read (i.e. not spending victories but waiting until you've gained victories)

[ancient pewter]

ah gotcha

plus expending recoveries just makes one player attrition harder than everyone else

[indigo lodge]

Is there an existing ability that lets you push 2 enemies against each other?

[main pawn]

I mean, any regular ability with a Push can be used to push someone into another and they'd both take damage. But I presume you mean that both of them are force moved, in which case you'll probably need an ability that Slides more than one target since they'd be moving in different directions. The troubadour's Hypnotics Overtones comes to mind, for example.

[brisk blade]

Yeah, i know
But there was a difference between what James suggested and what i wanted out of the item that i'm creating
What james suggests seems like a "you need to be on this much of a roll to use this item". And this is good design, i like it, but not for my item.
So James suggested a way of designing something, which let me think of an additional way to design it

[brisk blade]

Yeah, this is sort of the point of the item. It's supposed to be a very powerful item, but consume you in the process of using it, in order to make you use it sparingly.
My problem with it is to figure out how to make the players just not play around it by respiting all the time

[main pawn]

I don't imagine you'd consider just making it a consumable item? Or that it is fueled by some consumable magic item. That way, if they want to abuse them, they better stock up first

and that means 'spending' project points that could otherwise have been invested in other powerful things, and if their use is getting ridiculous you could starve out the required resources.

Alternatively, it could apply a condition on you (weakened, bleeding, dazed) with either Save Ends or lasting until some situation you specify (to limit the ways in which the condition can be ended by friends like the Green Elementalist or a Troubadour).

[brisk blade]

No, making it a consumable item won’t work, i don’t think. This is supposed to be an item in a set of 3 spread across the continent that the villains are chasing. They are supposed to be powerful items on their own, and when you combine them you will be able to control the dragon sleeping under the spine of the world.
So the item existing is more important than the effect of it

[cunning harbor]

You could make it cost your next respite activity? As you need to sleep off the bone-deep exaustion it causes.

[brisk blade]

Hm, yes, that would be an option, but my players haven't really started using the respite activities yet, and i'm unsure that they will
And like, it feels a little tame to say that this legendary item allows you to channel your sheer force of will in exchange for your spare time activities

[cunning harbor]

true, just hard to have any sort of lasting cost in a heroic game

I think actually a thing to do might be to have a mysterious clock. WHen they use the item, fill in a section

what happens when the clock fills up? Something bad, presumably, but who knows....

[brisk blade]

Yeah, i guess that's kinda the point of the game, right?
And, i wouldn't really say that i want some sort of lasting cost on the player, just the feeling that something isn't right with using the item
So i think i'll keep the item spending recovieries as for now, and balance the item by not giving the players as many chances for rest once they get it

And who knows, maybe that allows for the party to pass the item around, so everyone gets to use it

[cunning harbor]

So, I had a thought that I wanted to bring here

but I forgot it

[cunning harbor]

I don't remember if this was the thought I had previously, but...

Ajax needs more triggered actions

Currently he has triggered actions to counter Tactician, Fury, Censor, and Shadow

and also sort of conduit, with the anti-heal one

so, just spitballing some ideas:

Troubadour - "You stand upon MY stage" gain malice when they use Appeal to the Muses

Talent - "How frail the mind can be" something off of taking strain damage?

Null - "You suffice? Ha!" - Let's Ajax use one of his artifact maneuvers?

Elementalist - "No distractions" - free strike on Elementalist when they start their turn concentrating

[quick quarry]

Ideally, they'd only have access to the actions of the players, so Ajax is customized based on the party that fights them

[cunning harbor]

Exactly. Whatever hereos aren't in the party, Ajax doesn't need those triggered actions.

[quick quarry]

So, random homebrew idea, but curious if Drunken Master was a kit, what would be the signature theme of such an unarmed kit?

[indigo lodge]

Either a taunt or give bane on attacks against you i think

[quick quarry]

So, a simple 1st Echelon Title I've thought of that will help me with a couple conversions, and thought I'd share:

Signature Style
Prerequisite: You gain at least 5 victories with a kit

You can use treasures associated with the kit used to gain this title. You also gain the signature ability of the kit used as a prerequisite for this title and you can always gain the benefits of that kit when using that signature ability.

[cunning harbor]

Basically lets someone be a discount tactician with two kits?

[quick quarry]

Yep. Gives a character an option to have a little more variety in their weapons, but doesn't actually step on the toes of 2 kits; and it actually allows the tactician to gain the benefit. In fact, the way I have it word - the idea is you can use EITHER your kit OR the kits modifiers for the signature; if you were a tactician, you'd have 3 kit options to pick from for a signature (though typically, the signature works best with its own kit).

[quick quarry]

Sharing this here as well as the Manifold, but new side design project Im working on. 1st Draft of 1st level of the Gloom Elementalist! Looking for any feedback

[indigo lodge]

Eclipse of The Inner Eye is too powerful I think, it eclipses (ha ha) all of the shadow colleges’ 1st level feature, since none of them lets you hide unconditionally

[quick quarry]

I mean...that's odd, because I literally copied the text from Smoke Bomb from the shadow.

[indigo lodge]

Smoke Bomb requires you to shift into cover before being hidden

[quick quarry]

Ooh, ok, I see what you mean. In that case, I just need to add a single line here at the end that says "You are no longer hidden if you do not have concealment at the end of your turn"

That being said, not listed here is the triggered action that gives the specialization invisibility, and at 3rd or 4th level, they can generate their own concealment in other ways

[indigo lodge]

An invisible creature would already have concealment, so you needn’t specify that they need to move into cover to hide
Still, like I said earlier, wouldn’t this be too powerful? Feels wrong to have an elementalist be better at hiding than any shadow

[quick quarry]

I don't know if they're better. They're at par perhaps, but they also don't gain as much from being hidden as a Shadow. The majority of the theme is stealth, where as the Shadow has stealth AND a lot of other things.

[cunning harbor]

On the subject of prestege classes

I think there is room for a "prestige echelon" which basically replaces the abilities you get for a set of levels (say, 4-6)

Probably keeps the same subclass abilities? But maybe it swaps those around too. Or just gives you a third option to pick from at those levels!

[cunning harbor]

If you get a critical hit on a maneuver or other non-action non-strike ability roll, it should give you some HR

maybe like 3?

Just something so it doesn't seem like a waste

[viscid sapphire]

Oh I like that

I used your d4 surge homebrew and it was really fun!

[cunning harbor]

oh nice! glad you enjoyed it.

[viscid sapphire]

Just taught them that from the start lol (and said it was homebrew)

[cunning harbor]

For what it's worth, an extra action is worth 5 Heroic Resources (based off of Strike Now and Shadowstrike).

[viscid sapphire]

Yeah I think 3 is a good number, see how it feels

I guess it should only come up once every 33 odd rolls anyway right

[quick quarry]

The one issue is does that encourage people to use maneuvers that gave a power roll over others?

[viscid sapphire]

For a 3% chance of getting HR? I think most players would rather do something more optimal to their current situation than gamble it haha, like if you’re dying you’d want to use catch breath, not gamble on extra HR, or if you’re a censor/tactician and don’t have someone judged/marked id imagine you’d rather do that than gamble on 3%?

And if you have 2 good options and one has a power roll, then yeah maybe you’d pick that one? But I think that’d, if anything, speed up combat decision making

[quick quarry]

True - it sort of depends on how much your players are motivated by such risks one away or another. I don't mean to poo-poo it, just a thought I suppose.

[wicked brook]

Does anyone know of any collections of homebrew titles? I've seen a fair amount of treasures but not a lot of perks or titles.

[quick quarry]

Nothing yet. I had a couple I sort of drafted up, but they're not organized. I think because titles are a someone less common sort of reward from other rpg's, people are still getting a hang of their scope and power.

That said, happy to help brainstorm if you have an idea or 2 that you need to flesh out

[wicked brook]

These are the two I was working on that prompted me to go looking - 1st echelon

I'm trying to get another 1 or 2 that could be earned during the fall of blackbottom. So maybe something about knocking a hawklord out of the air, or fighting in confined spaces

[quick quarry]

Those look great! I think Heal + Defend on yourself would be pretty cool option if you ask me. Get down, could you get away with having them reduce damage by half and go prone?

I'll have to find my list of options and share them sometime

[viscid sapphire]

I like combat medic too

Also yeah, I think get down could have some stuff added

Maybe something like this

Could add an “else, you half the damage and fall prone”

[viscid sapphire]

Has anyone else used modified Hero Token rules?

Outside of just changes from auto-success to a re-roll

[quick quarry]

Sort of: the only thing I do is for the reroll - if they don't succeed OVER the previous roll, they get the token back

I used to have this rule for Inspiration for 5E, and its worked well enough

[viscid sapphire]

Hmm my current issue is an overabundance of them, so that might make things trickier lol

[quick quarry]

Ah, ok - whole different problem then I suppose

Unrelated - but working on new subclass; and curious if this is over powered or in line for 5 HR - feel its about even with Coup de Grace/ Censored?

[indigo lodge]

I feel it might be a bit underpowered?

[quick quarry]

I was also debating having it grant you surges too

the main idea being - if you can call your shot and take something out with it - you get a big boost.

[viscid sapphire]

Might be good to clarify, is it after the damage is done you check the stamina level?

Would be as simple as saying, “If the target’s stamina is now equal to or lower…”

[quick quarry]

Ah, good point. Yes, it is after you deal damage you check

[cunning harbor]

The damage scale feels a little flat. Nulls get an intrinsic +2 bonus iirc, so the base damage would be 4/5/7. Should probably be 3/6/9 or 4/6/10, based on the damage spreads for single target abilities

[quick quarry]

So you think it should be more damage? By my math, a 2nd level null with the density Aug has a Recovery value of 12, so I was using that as part of the damage calculation

I based the ability on censored with its auto kill

[cunning harbor]

Oh, not neccessarily. I just grabbed the spreads which were near the Tier 1 result of your damage, which yeah would be higher damage on average I'm realizing 😅

[hidden void]

Got a little splash screen cooked up for my first DS adventure! 😄

[brisk blade]

Sick title

[main pawn]

I have considered setting them to either adventure by adventure or respite by respite. Rather than session by session, which in many cases means combat by combat to me.

Adventure by adventure makes them really pleasing as a reward to players for doing the heroic thing. But I still need to get a feel for how plentiful or scarce they'd feel.

[viscid sapphire]

We’re going to trial reseting on victories first

(As voted by the players)

[quick quarry]

Onto my next project: Making a few new stormwight kits (because I can :P) - at the very least I'm making this one for a conversion for another player's character. How does this feel for a Tiger Stormwight?

[ancient pewter]

personally i feel like tiger should be lightning instead of fire but perhaps thats my weeb sensabilities showing

[quick quarry]

I was 50/50 on it either way so I'm ammenable to that

BUT - should it be the 'same' type of storm as Vulken, or is there a way to differentiate it from that, and still be lightning?

[indigo lodge]

You’re keeping the hybrid and animal form the same?

[quick quarry]

Yeah - its a BIG cat. Bear and wolf didn't deviate, but I know rat and crow did; this is BIG cat energy

[indigo lodge]

What does that have to do with the forms being the same? What’s the point of having different forms if they are the same? Is it because Boren and Vuken are?

[quick quarry]

Maybe I mis-understood what you meant. Could you rephrase your original question?

[indigo lodge]

So, Boren and Vuken has their animal and hybrid forms mechanically identical, except for the bonus they get past 4th level. This is a left over from when the hybrid form was gated behind your growing rage table, and was explicitly more powerful version of the animal form, currently you get access to both from the start, which renders the animal from pointless once you reach 4th level. Radens and Corvens have mechanically different animal and hybrid forms (I’m not sure if this was the case in previous packets). My question is, why have you kept the animal and hyrbid forms for the Raigen (I really like the name btw) two separate forms that have almost identical mechanical benefits , instead of just combining them into one?

[ancient pewter]

sonic perhaps?

[quick quarry]

Ah, ok thanks. Is what you're saying is that in a later version - the hybrid forms don't gain a bonus. From what I saw - it seemed like each kit gained a bonus in hybrid form at level 4, but I didn't want to add the temp stamina for Raigen, so I added climb like the Raden.

If I combined them, what might that look like?

[quick quarry]

I mean...Thunder cats are...on point

[indigo lodge]

Also, the 4 rage benefit grants you a surge when you knock another creature prone, but the kit signature doesn’t allow you to do so, was the signature effect changed from knocking prone to giving a surge?

[quick quarry]

No, the idea is you get prone from either grabbing or charging via the aspect.

[indigo lodge]

Ah sorry, I missed that

[quick quarry]

I'm ammendable to changes - but I wanted to try to encapsulate the idea that the tiger, while a grabber like the bear, is also fast and will pounce. So its more about running in, tackling, and then raking and focusing a single target

[indigo lodge]

I’m saying that if you the only difference between the two forms is one get a bonus at 4th level, then there is no point in having two forms in the first place, it’s wasted design space, and wasted literal space because you just copy pasted the same benefits from one form to the other.

If you combined them, then it would just be the hybrid form, because they are identical besides the 4th level bonus

[quick quarry]

Gotcha - I mean, I think I would agree; but I was following prescedent for the layout they had. Personally, if they aren't any different features, then it would make sense to have them be the same. But I don't know if there is another reason you'd want to keep them seperate - so I'll probably wait till the final formatting is done. There might be other changes but theoretically, I would agree with you.

[indigo lodge]

If you want a good reason to keep them separate, look at the Raden’s two forms, the animal form is specialized while the hybrid form is more generalists, once you are 4th level, both forms have Climb but only the animal form can Hide behind their allies and gain and edge on climbing other creatures, while the hybrid form doesn’t have the weakness of being smaller. With the two forms you can make really interesting choices for the player, giving them two modes of strategy they can choose between in a fight, I understand sticking to the lay out but the layout doesn’t extend to the individual features, you can make them whatever you want!

[indigo lodge]

Is knocking prone meant to simulate the pouncing? How core to the playstyle do you want knocking prone to be vs grabbing?

[quick quarry]

I'll have to consider on the first and second bits as I don't know with certainly. Grab is probably more important.

But, headed to bed, so will get back to you tomorrow hopefully

[indigo lodge]

If you go with sonic, you could flavor it as thunder as opposed to the Vuken’s lightning, I don’t know if you’d want to imply that it’s slower than Vuken though

[quick quarry]

Thinking on it, as fun as the pun would be, I want to keep lightning as I think I want to do sonic for the BAT I think 🦇

[cunning harbor]

The kit is one point over budget, I'm afraid.
3 points [9 Stamina]
3 points [2 speed]
2 points [2/2/2 damage]
1 point [1 Disengage]
= 9 points

[quick quarry]

I'm pretty sure I copied vulken though. Do stormwight kits use the same math?

[cunning harbor]

huh, Vuken is just 1 point above the others. Odd.

[quick quarry]

I suspect since it's a kit with very strict requirements, it is probably a bit more flexible on the budget. It's not like the tactician can use it 😉

[indigo lodge]

Even the other Stormwight kits? Do you factor in their various aspect and form benefits or just the kit bonuses?

[cunning harbor]

Just from kit bonuses, but every other stormwight kit matches the standard budget.

is the Vuken aspect bonus notably weaker?

[indigo lodge]

No I don’t think so, I was just asking to see if you have assigned points to the non-kit bonuses

[quick quarry]

Mm, that'd a good point maybe the aspect is part of the budget

[indigo lodge]

The bonuses are really spread out between the kit numbers, aspects and forms, I’m sure and the rage table is also a part of the power budget, so it’s kinda difficult to compare

[quick quarry]

Well, I know the tiger aspect was feeling a bit weak, so I feel 1 point over should be fine. If they adjust numbers in release, I can revisit

[indigo lodge]

How so?

[quick quarry]

Charge is useful, but hard to use every turn, so it can be less useful over time in a combat

[indigo lodge]

I don't think the aspects need to be used every turn to be strong, the Boren's aspect hardly comes up at all but when it does it's plenty impactful, charging as an activation is problematic but you do have an alternative in grabbing

[main pawn]

Does anyone know roughly how many triggered actions the classes get over the course of the game? I've found that in early play, having only one option makes them feel a little too niche to be reliably used. (That might be down to my character builds though.)

[quick quarry]

Just the one guaranteed. A few get them as heroic abilities, but after 1st level, there is no common number

[main pawn]

Hmm. Fertile ground for homebrewing in other words. I must ponder this

[cunning harbor]

Shadows get a different triggered action they can use while stealthed, but yeah most classes just have their one.

[ancient pewter]

null can get the most at echelon 3 with multiple options for 9 or 11 cost abilities. likewise, censor has many options (especially if ur an oracle)

[quick quarry]

btw, can you remind me where the table for the kit math is?

[indigo lodge]

https://discord.com/channels/332362513368875008/1279221009773363321

[cunning harbor]

I need to make an updated guide for kit stuff

that's more than just the math

[white moat]

cringe or neat idea

Type: Triggered
Distance: Ranged 10
Target: 1 enemy
Trigger: The target starts their turn within 5 of an ally.
Effect: The target is Taunted (EoT) by an ally of your choice within 5 of them.
Spend 1 Essence: ?

mm i should include more context
porting mid-level dnd characters to draw steel and since there's no illusionist class yet my enchantment wizard player is left kinda high and dry so im conceptualising potentially homebrewing a Shadow element for the elementalist to help fill that niche for them

i can steal talent stuff for a lot of the HR abilities if i want but trying to come up with ideas for a triggered and a 2nd level feature is 😓

[river lava]

There's an illusion-themed Shadow subclass, does that help?

Oh, sorry, misread the question. Hmm.

[quick quarry]

Oh! I'm literally working on that. Hold on...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GKafjy_Uo_3gS71ismdkS-3mFIGAhHSePVpgKiR6Xh0/edit?usp=drivesdk

This is still WIP, but @white moat I think it's just what your looking for

That said, your triggered action might be better. It gives me ideas though

[lusty raft]

I would definitely include a clause that the ability must target a willing ally/that the ally must be willing to have the enemy taunted. Unless you're confident that your players don't need that safety belt.

Otherwise these sound like wonderfully fun shenanigans 😛

[white moat]

i think im good to assume good faith on behalf of players but maybe ill add it anyway

[white moat]

waow

[quick quarry]

Totally fair! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GKafjy_Uo_3gS71ismdkS-3mFIGAhHSePVpgKiR6Xh0/edit?usp=sharing Fixed now 😅

[white moat]

you are an angel sent from the heavens to aid me in my time of need

i was even thinking about making it a multielement subclass

fwiw i think neither here or nor there lasting until end of round is much cooler and more compelling

also if they're invisible they can't really be observed so im not sure about the wording on that part

i love sliding except the reduction is intuition what a fun idea

[quick quarry]

Feel free to play around with it; I can't say for certain if its too powerful or not - so I'd love feedback

[quick quarry]

Also, might be redundant, but figured just good to cover my bases for now.

[quick quarry]

Yeah I stole that from some other power, I think harlequin shadow, its quick and gets the point across pretty well

[cunning harbor]

The ally definition already requires willing, for what it;s worth

[quick quarry]

So, almost put this in the strength belt chat, but realized its more broad. There really isn't a good tier of magic weapon between leveled item and artifact. I feel I have ideas for some particularly strong items, but I don't necessarily want them to be artifact "only for a limited time' sort of items. It feels like artifacts are as much cursed objects as they are powerful.

[cunning harbor]

Yeah, artifacts are sorta game warping in their conception.

[quick quarry]

Yeah. I feel like I need a treasure category where you can have ONE of these things, but you don't have to anticpate that it's going to utterly break your game

[cunning harbor]

Does this replace some amount of leveled treasures, to have one of these things?

[quick quarry]

I don't know. I debated having an item that counts as two leveled treasures, and it about 1.5 times as powerful

[cunning harbor]

Why only 1.5 times and not 2 times?

[quick quarry]

Not sure, just a hunch

[charred gale]

What about abstracting out “3 leveled treasures” to 3 slots each of a 1st, 5th and 9th level items?

So you could have an item worth (2) 5th level slots or one worth (3-2-1) 1st/5th/9th.

I’d say the item needs to take up at least 2 slots, or else it’s probably more equivalent to a trinket.

[quick quarry]

Possibly, but then that would require explaining that abstraction - not to mention then it plays even less well with other treasures. But, I'd agree that a powerful item either needs to take up more slots OR have some other cost.

For example - the item I'm trying to make, named the Divine Horn of Anael (custom god) is a horn of storms; you can summon rain that heals, wind that pushes and blocks arrows, and lightning that strikes enemies. Pretty powerful; but it is a big reward for a character. The thing I 'don't' want to go with it is 'the character dies after using it for awhile, or 'they summon a great storm that destroys the city', or stuff like that. Its suppose to be a powerful tool that would arguably increase the power of the whole party, but I dunno - artifacts as they are laid out almost feel like they are TOO double edged to use EXCEPT as a plot device.

mechanically, this horn if I port it over to DS would probably have the ability to 'allow allies to spend recoveries easier (how easy, not sure), grant bane on ranged weapon attacks and maybe can push; and then deal X lightning damage to targets. All costing an action; so its not in addition to their turn, but in place of it, but...yeah 🤔 not sure how to do

[cunning harbor]

I think having it take actions means it can be a leveled treasure

[quick quarry]

I suppose, but at present, 1st level gives you a dmg bonus and typically ONE combat feature (sometimes a ribbon); then again at 5th and 9ths; so leveled treasures give a total of 3 features at 9th level. Which means, if you want an item that has more than 2 at say; 5th level, it'll have to be worth at least 2 treasures and or on some other scale.

[charred gale]

I feel like either:

A) you need to just brew in a new category like “major magic item” and just let that power ride on top of the 3 leveled treasures

B) or spend the time upfront explaining and abstraction of the level treasure budget so that some it can be spent on this item.

[indigo lodge]

are there any mechanical benefits to being small besides being able to climb other creatures?

[main pawn]

Cover is technically defined as having half your body blocked by something, so that should be easier for a small creature to get. But I suspect that's somewhat table dependent

[cunning harbor]

In general it's a negative trait, since it makes it easier to be knocked around.

[ancient pewter]

idea: operator is reverse talent

[quick quarry]

.>.....

[charred gale]

What does that mean

[ancient pewter]

oh like

instead of having a negative u can dip into

u have an effective HR cap

go above ur cap and u overheat

procing special effects on ur abilities (a la strained)

[indigo lodge]

I’ve been trying to do something similar where you get ramping drawbacks and benefits the higher your HR goes, and your abilities can spend all the HR for extra effects

[hidden void]

Reminds me of Lancer, from what little I know of it. That's a great idea!

[ancient pewter]

thats exactly the idea i got when i was on a walk!

[quick quarry]

https://tenor.com/view/jack-nicholson-jack-nicholson-yes-evil-smile-gif-13030909

[main pawn]

Has anybody made a list of all DS abilities (names) and their keywords? I want to look up and compare some and before scraping it manually I figured I should ask

[meager arrow]

I don't think so?

I could very well be wrong, I just lurk and admire every spreadsheet that pops up in DS channels

[ancient pewter]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15DpwMZ0768J40PqrrPj-7H0AV59qVEx2zZBjG-2DD9o/edit?usp=drivesdk

not keywords but here you go

[main pawn]

That's a wonderful starting point, thank you!

[main pawn]

Funnily enough, this foray has led me to discover that the manuscript never actually defines what a signature ability or a heroic ability actually is; what these terms actually mean is only learned through context. (Presumably an editing thing! Or it just manages to work without being defined.)

Edit: That's not quite true, each class lists their abilities as either "signature" or "heroic" and then just some abilities that are neither. But when it comes to stuff like Ancestries etc it's less defined.

[white moat]

deranged or cool 1st level feature

might be too deranged

might work better to just let them turn invisible as a maneuver

[white moat]

player really vibes with a lot of it but specifically wanted some more brain-fuckery fundamental features rather than the illusiony stuff so i iterated on the idea i had before for that

[white moat]

hm. this might be better as the 2nd level specialisation feature rather than the 1st, since the 1st is normally more uh

ribbony

[cunning harbor]

might be too deranged, especially since the only limit on hiding is now the observation clause.

which is up to director discression

[white moat]

yeah this feels cleaner

[cunning harbor]

nice

[quick quarry]

I might be able to actually wrap that into the other feature. I wanted to allow the gloom elementalist to pop their shadow off them to help cover allies, or make itself an illusion that can be like a body double, but that might bump it to level 3.

[quick quarry]

I don't remember, but I presume charmed means they can't attack you is all?

If so, I might do like a slide, and potentency charm? It would be really powerful against a solo otherwise

[white moat]

no

double bane on attacking you

and you count as an ally for aoes

i would consider it adjacent to the conduit ability to inflict a bane on a trigger since it doesnt preclude them from just swinging on someone else, but it costs 1 less HR for the double bane effect

which makes sense to me as a trade off

[white moat]

im specifically focusing on more enchantment wizardy stuff than illusion wizardy stuff because thats the vibe of the original character im porting

[indigo lodge]

I can’t seem to find the definition for charmed outside of specific monster abilities, was this from a previous packet?

[white moat]

no i made it up

its a fabrication

sorry i forgot its not base bc a bunch of people have made their own versions of it

[cunning harbor]

It's basically inverted Taunt

[white moat]

i might be cooking too close to the sun with this one

[grim haven]

Oh dear. That's uh... that's a big aoe

[cunning harbor]

yes, that would touch the sun. So I think that counts as too close lol.

[main pawn]

Well, it depends on the effect I suppose. For example, an LoE Taunt seems really busted until it's the enemies' turn again

[white moat]

its an 11 HR ability so :v

[cunning harbor]

Yeah that gives some leeway.

[cunning harbor]

LoE taunt is less busted then it might seem IMO. Just effectively becomes a double bane. And one they could neutralize by breaking LoE.

[main pawn]

That was ... kind of the point? That Line of Effect Burst isn't overpowered per se, without knowing the effect it applies to

[cunning harbor]

Ah, yeah I misunderstood what you were saying.

[viscid sapphire]

https://tenor.com/view/its-so-beautiful-crying-happy-gif-25760550

[white moat]

(heres the full ability since i might as well, it's for an archfey patron)

initially it was a 10 burst, then it was a 20 burst, then i decided 'if i just want this to hit everyone in the map who can see you i should just go whole hog'
draw steel is not a game for designers who are cowards

[white moat]

contemplating an alternate version of the thrill seeker complication for a player, thoughts?

Benefit: When you start a fight against creature(s) with villain actions, you gain a number of hero tokens equal to your echelon.

Drawback: You can't use hero tokens until you have three or more victories.

[quick quarry]

Speaking of cooking, new subclass I'm working on - looking for a temperature check on this one?

[indigo lodge]

Looks very fun, but the effect could be a bit more concise.
Did you intend for this to able to damage the same enemy twice or does it stop you before you can target them a second time?

[quick quarry]

The idea is that it can careen enemies around, and you get to damage ONE enemy twice (then it ends)

[indigo lodge]

Wouldn’t it be pretty hard to trigger this multiple times? Since the enemies would know not to end their turn near each other after the first trigger

[quick quarry]

That's what the slide is for - you hit a guy, slide them into a second enemy, then reroll against THAT enemy, and repeat till you're out of enemies

A better name might be 'Slapstick' now that I think of it

You make a rube-goldberg machine of your foes, they all fall into each other

[indigo lodge]

But the repeat happens when the enemy ends their turn though, so can’t they can move away from each other and then end their turn? The slide happens before their turn starts as I’m understanding the effect as written

[quick quarry]

Ope, you're know what - you're right - I should have said movement then

[charred gale]

Love this ability good job

[main pawn]

Hm. How broken would it be if Malice can also work like hero tokens? Pay 2 to heal up, pay 1 to up your test roll, maybe even pay for some surge boost. But as a kicker, the heroes can pay a hero token to nullify the effect in counter.

[white moat]

i would question why you'd need to add it

[viscid sapphire]

Believe the new malice rules have it at 3 malice to up a potency if that helps balance your idea?

[main pawn]

Mostly conservation of ninjutsu, I think. Still only a thought experiment, but I've had a couple encounters where towards the end I am down to fewer creatures and more Malice than they can reasonably spend before being hammered into the ground. This could give me more opportunities to 'vent' a little malice. On the other hand, it might just prolong the tail ends of fights beyond their welcome.

[quick quarry]

Yeah, new rules will allow malice to add damage to monsters, as a universal feature

[viscid sapphire]

At the cost of a whopping 7 malice according to the encounter sheet they shared

[quick quarry]

Wait, was it really 7??

[white moat]

i thought it was 5 but you could juice it

[viscid sapphire]

You’re so right, it’s 5+. Misread it at 2am lol

[quick quarry]

Ok, got page 1 done for a new subclass: Preview -

This is a ranged weapon/ comedy subclass - with a focus on being a very supportive troubador to help your allies laugh along the way 😉

[cunning harbor]

Are there any other Troubadour routines that aren't aura 5?

Is Call Out supposed to be a maneuver?

I'll admit, I'm not really seeing the flavor of a retort halving damage? In my mind a retort is happening after whatever instigated things. Just "Heckle" might work? Or maybe go for a more diologue based line.

[quick quarry]

Blocking is aura 2. Call out is supposed to be maneuver, so that's a typo. As for heckle name, could be good to simplify.

The idea is just that you give a mocking comment at just the right time to throw their aim off

It's weird, some abilities I have a good name, but mechanic is off, others I have a good mechanic, but struggle with a good name.

[main pawn]

You could go the in-character route of some DS abilities and call it "That's all you got?" or "Come now, at least try!"
That said, I would personally prefer a different, more evocative triggered action. Halving damage at range 10 just seems like a more flexible version of the Vanguard's Parry. (I have ideas but don't know if you'd like suggestions.)

It's funny, I too have thought that the Troubadour could do great with a Robin Hood-y ranged subclass. It just screams for such mannerisms. I like your idea of adding jokester/heckler to the archetype, that matches the fantasy and makes it less of just a bowman

Split the Shaft looks fun! Though Save Ends on a Damage Weakness spontaneously feels quite strong for a signature. I'd also imagine an ability with such a name to "power up" with repeated shots (you know, hitting your previous shaft) akin to the Talent's Entropic Bolt

[quick quarry]

Robin hood was Exactly what I was going for. The comedic relief that keeps their distance and is parts encouraging and disparaging

[quick quarry]

Yeah, I also debated that, just wasn't sure if this archetype should be high on damage. The weakness was just a condition to connect to the effect, but I hope weakness 1 isn't too much

[main pawn]

Are you open for suggestions/ideas, or do you prefer it to be primarily feedback?

[quick quarry]

Happy for suggestions! Early days still.

[main pawn]

Alright, my ideas for each then:
Heckling Retort

The attacker is Taunted (EoT) by you (or the target, your choice?)

Split the Shaft
How about:

≤ 11: 3 + A damage
12-16: 5 + A damage
17+: 8 + A damage
Effect: Until the start of your next turn (or EoT?), the target has Damage Weakness equal to the number of times you have previously damaged it with this ability.

[quick quarry]

The taunt might make sense, but troubadour already has instigator signature ability. If ut applied a double bane on the triggering power roll maybe, but since it's at range I'm not sure they WANT that much attention.

As for split the shift, is the idea that it's only 1 dmg boost unless you can attack more than once per round?

[main pawn]

No, the damage weakness would increase each time you've used the ability on them, it just doesn't stick around for the rounds when you choose to use other abilities instead. So round 1 = damage weakness 1, round 2= heroic ability (no damage weakness), round 3 = damage weakness 2 would be legal

Bear in mind, damage weakness won't only trigger on your abilities but on everyone's abilities so it's something that can get very big results quick. This should also factor into the default damage.

[quick quarry]

Yeah, maybe. But, would it be on theme to make everyone weak?

The simpler alternate idea I had is split the shift deals more dmg to a target that got hit already in the round

[main pawn]

That could work too! Heck, or maybe Split the Shaft is their triggered action, and they make a free strike (or just damage) against an enemy that's being attacked?

[cunning harbor]

"My grandmother's Dog had better aim!"

Split the Shaft might also work better as a heroic, something to consider

damage weakness is strong.

[main pawn]

The taunt might make sense, but troubadour already has instigator signature ability.
Yes, but the troubadour only gets to pick one signature ability (plus kit) and you have given them two extra to choose from.

[quick quarry]

True. Maybe for heckler, it could be half damage and spend 1 drama for the taunt? Double bane for no HR feels a little powerful, especially at range.

[quick quarry]

Yeah, but I have more comedic ideas foe the heroics, so I'll sooner ditch the weakness than make it heroic.

Maybe it just makes it so YOU deal more damage each time you hit the same target, Ala entropic bolt? Just not slowed?

[cunning harbor]

That would work!

[quick quarry]

Well...willy didn't beat me to ALL the funny troubadour ideas but...gonna have to rethink a couple

[cunning harbor]

I made a Clown subclass with aestus lol

[quick quarry]

I guess we're all fools today 😛

[true orbit]

Something I've been thinking about for a while is with the proper support from mcdm the distribution of teirs in the power roll could be tweaked to fit a certain style of directing

Like it's a dial of difficulty that could be adjusted table to table

[lusty raft]

I don't know if I understand you correctly, but do you mean, like, adjusting the ranges for the tiers of success, for example to 13 and less, 14-18 & 19+, to better capture the vibe of a dark fantasy campaign? I don't know; I think that would require a much more comprehensive, system-wide overhaul.

A great number of abilities, features etc. are also inherently designed to achieve a certain kind of heroic fantasy so if you wanted to do something like change the subgenre you'd probably have to rework all of that stuff, too. You get a completely different game at that point. Which would be cool! But much more work.

[true orbit]

I don't think it would require any overhaul at all other than changing numbers on every ability, that's all I mean by support making it so that's easy and not you don't have to keep referencing a different chart.

I Fundamentally disagree with your second paragraph you don't have to change any of the abilities for anything just those ranges. I genuinely believe it would only feel a little different that's why I've been thinking about it

[lusty raft]

Well, you might be right. If you try it out in play I'd love to hear how it went!

I wonder what happens to encounter balance if you only change the numbers for the tiers of success. Maybe it'll work just fine as long as you change the numbers for the monster's abilities, too? That likely requires some testing.

What new ranges would you like to implement, btw?

[true orbit]

I don't know, I just keep noticing that in my game so far, which is not a big sample size to be sure, that I'm seeing a lot of tier 1 results and that same but not entirely the same icky sticky feeling of the null results is creeping in the wings

Now granted it does not escape me that this is intentional to make players strategize and look for edges anywhere they can

[quick quarry]

Dmg still happens on a tier 1 result though?

[true orbit]

So Maybe my players just need to get good

[true orbit]

Of course but like Colville said in a video somewhere, you can still have a bad turn in draw steel

I've counted enough times where one of my players has a deflated tone when getting a tier 1 result that I'm wondering if something can be tweaked Maybe

I didn't phrase that right, I've heard the deflated tone from all of my players more than once when they get a tier 1 result

[hidden void]

In my limited experience, I find the difference between tier 1 and 2 usually comes down to 1 point a lot of the time, so maybe a bump from 11 to 12 might go a long way.

Only thing I'd caution is not to confuse deflated tones with "feels bad moments" that need correcting. It's okay to emotions other than excitement while playing.

I've seen it happen a few times with my players where they get a tier 1 result and go "damn..." but bounce right back after.

The solution might just be getting a tier 3 result the next round or getting used to the game and how to work together for edges and what not

[true orbit]

I need a little bit more experience with it but I think that edges could stand to be more than +2 honestly, it seems like it's rare when they actually influence bumping up a tier

But I do understand that they are trying to cultivate those moments of Big Time elation when they actually do but it sort of just feels like the same problem I had in d20 fantasy where those moments of elation are very few and far between and sometimes they happen where that doesn't matter

Or my table is just cursed I don't know

[lusty raft]

I think this is definitely a point where DS still retains the swinginess of any other game where you roll once for your one big action maybe 5 times during an evening and where, thus, the chance for rolling bad all evening is still fairly high.

At it's core, DS has the same ~35% chance for the lowest result D&D has; you just still do some damage.

I think the design conundrum a game like this is facing in this regard is that you (probably?) still need some chance for 'failure' - in the sense of 'having a bad turn' - to make sure you actually still have something to win with your die roll, too. Would a game with only tier 2 & tier 3 results be more fun than one that also has tier 1? I don't know. You'd probably need to play like that for at least 3+ sessions to find out because in my experience, walking around in 'god mode' only starts to feel boring after you've done it a while.

However, I think there already is precedent for this in DS, already? Because in echelon 4 (maybe even 3?) you basically don't ever roll tier 1 anymore because your bonus is so high & you probably even roll 3d10 & take the highest two. So maybe there are some people around here who playtested level 10 for several sessions already and can speak to this?

[lusty raft]

If you consider the basic roll of 2d10+2 from Might/Intellect/Whatever, the additional +2 from an edge means a ~33% lower chance to hit tier 1 and a ~33% higher chance to hit tier 3, which seems pretty impactful to me but I can see how you might feel better with a +3 or something similar.

I would definitely add that DS really rewards great tactical play with that sweet, sweet double edge. That's, like, a 65% chance to hit tier 3 (and a 0% chance for tier 1). Nonetheless, I can see how not every table might be equally interested in going that deep into tactics to make that happen on a semi-regular basis and how, at that table, making a single edge more impactful could be an interesting idea.

[true orbit]

Maybe my players and myself can have a conversation about how their current kits can work together to create those double edges

Ill pitch that too them

Deff would rather push the intent of the game before altering it

[lusty raft]

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea 🙂 If you find it still feels a little unsatisfying after a good while you can probably make a more informed/well thought out homebrew design to change it, too

[cunning harbor]

As a Shadow main, I can say that only getting tier 2 and 3 results (due to double edge in my case) felt really great! But a lot of that was knowing that it was the result of my own strategy and decisions giving me that guarentee, rather then it just being how things are.

[viscid sapphire]

It might be helpful to have a little list of what gives an edge so your players can try learn to look for/set up for them. Like if you’re coming from dnd, you might not think to move into a flanking position for example

Off the top of my head the basic ones are:
Flanking
High ground
Hidden
Monster being surprised
Monster being restrained
Monster being proned

Then depending on the players, off the top of my head:
tactician’s mark
One of the conduit’s triggered actions, word of something.
Talent I think has a triggered action?

[cunning harbor]

Troubadour too

[quick quarry]

quick question, but need a math check; with the 2d10 system - if you made some feature that increased the critical hit range from 19 or 20 to 18 to 20; that's almost doubling the crit chance, correct?

[charred gale]

I think it’s exactly double

[viscid sapphire]

19-20 is a 3% chance, 18-20 is a 6%

20 is 1%
19 is 2%
18 is 3%
And so on

So to to the probability of a range you add them, so 1+2+3 is 6

[quick quarry]

Ok. I'm working on magic items, and I had an idea for a leveled treasure that gave you a double bane on strikes, but increased your crit range to 18 or 20. Not sure if that seems too strong, or too weak.

[meager arrow]

So basically, you can never get a T3 result but you're more likely to be able to do it again

[indigo lodge]

You can still get T3 on a crit though right?

[meager arrow]

With a double bane? Maybe?

[indigo lodge]

I can’t believe they put this under Making a Roll and not under Critical Hit

[charred gale]

Yeah, almost tripped me up too. General rule for PRs applies to tests and ability rolls

[meager arrow]

It's also under "Automatic Tier Results" oop this section seems to be in other playtest materials that aren't the patron or backer packets, don't mind me

So then, lower chance of T3 result but it comes with an additional action

[charred gale]

With a -1 to the power roll, you have a 6% chance of getting a T3 (inclusive of the 3% crit chance.)

So if anything I’d say double bane for 18-20 crit is a little weak. You’re signing up for a lot of pain in exchange for getting an extra action ~once every 16 strikes

I think basically with crit-fishing homebrew one has to explore non-comparable tradeoffs. The power roll math is just kind of too tight layer on more modifiers with ease.

[quick quarry]

Hmm, ok - so you're saying that if you increase the crit rate, reducing power roll is probably not worth it. My thought then might be to have it be just a regular bane AND something else?

[charred gale]

That sounds like a good start. I’m not sure exactly what would be a worthy tradeoff. Possibly slight damage weakness or some kind of vulnerability to conditions.

[indigo lodge]

This is an awful idea but maybe enemies also crit you on an 18?

[charred gale]

Director and critic-fisher player forming an extremely toxic codependency

[quick quarry]

Could be. That said - maybe just requiring HR spend on the strike? Spend 1 HR on a strike, increase the Crit range by 1? So you give up a little higher level abilities for the chance at a crit?

[viscid sapphire]

Mm idk, 1 HR is not worth 3% extra crit chance to me

What if you went whole hog and did 17-20 crit, but double bane

That’s a 10% chance of a tier 3 and an extra action

For comparison:
Normally, a tier 3 is a 21% chance at 1st echelon (excluding edges), 28% chance at 2nd, 36% at 3rd, and 45% at 4th

OR, could you change the crit rules with the weapon to if the modified roll is 20+. That way it scales with echelon.
At 1st echelon, have to roll an 18 on the dice, down to 15 on the dice at 4th echelon

Noting that ordinarily it’s 15 on the dice for a tier 3 at 1st echelon down to 12 on the dice at 4th echelon

(Ignoring edges of course, but perhaps you always have a double bane no matter the number of edges?)

[viscid sapphire]

This means your chances of tier 3 is lower, but your chance of crits are higher, scaling with echelon. I think perhaps it should scale with echelon otherwise it’s worse for you at higher echelons since if your chance of crits stays the same but your chance of tier 3s increases, you’d more likely want to give away the item since you’re slowly losing more and more to the ability, and not gaining anything in return extra for it

[quick quarry]

Making it the modified roll sounds really good actually. Because 17 or higher would be a tier 3 result - what would happen then is more or less hollowing out the middle - you get more T1 results, but slightly more T3 results with crits.

[cunning harbor]

I think if it was a level 9 ability, you could just give the 18 crit straight up

[marble pecan]

Was watching Matt on stream and mentioned a few ability names for the Rook class that I was proud of...
https://www.twitch.tv/matthew_colville/clip/AwkwardLovelyKleeEleGiggle-_It1GEoeV4DtIohe

[quick quarry]

My name game still leaves much to be desired

[marble pecan]

Draw Steel opens up a lot of cool name options, but I've also always been a fan of funky naming conventions like puritan phrase-names.

[indigo lodge]

@viscid sapphire Continuing from #ds_patrons seeing how far we can push Ajax with 5 level 10 PCs

Are we using malice abilities too or just heroes?

[viscid sapphire]

So I’m thinking:

4 fire elementalists
1 talent not fury because of this:

I think just hero’s

Talent can increase the forced movement by 15 I think!

And I guess they use greater kinetic grip?

Use this as a maneuver

[indigo lodge]

Gravitic Nova pushes 15

[viscid sapphire]

Snapdragons also can stack I think, since it’s the next damage dealing ability not before the start of your next turn or whatever

[indigo lodge]

mmm + 1 from Growth Potion?

[viscid sapphire]

True, though that would count towards the 30 consumables maximum haha

I think 30 saved up snap dragons is pretty funny (and they give +2 each)

[indigo lodge]

wouldn't that go against the same effects don't stack rule

[viscid sapphire]

Oh yeah that’s fair

Though a think growth wouldn’t help because gravitic nova isn’t a melee weapon ability so size doesn’t matter?

[indigo lodge]

darn you're right, I thought it was a blanket bonus to forcemovement

OH Forceful Haakan

would that work with Lines of Force? since you become the source of the force movement

[viscid sapphire]

Ohhh interesting point

I would argue yes

[indigo lodge]

ooooh I feel like we gottaa be missing something

wanna break that 100

is there a title maybe

@viscid sapphire 4TH ECHELON TITLES GET YOUR CHARACTERISTIC TO 6

that's push 93

sooo close

[viscid sapphire]

Ohh my lord

[indigo lodge]

can talents use implements

[viscid sapphire]

I believe RAI yes

[indigo lodge]

Forceful III imbuement gives +3 to the push

Gah nvm it's not supernatural

[viscid sapphire]

Isn’t it? It’s psychic

[indigo lodge]

does that mean the same thing? different keywords right? I don't know how they are defined

[viscid sapphire]

Supernatural is magic or psionic

Push 96 so far!

[indigo lodge]

oh sick

surely the furies have something

[viscid sapphire]

Any respite activities??

[indigo lodge]

good call, something in cooking or fishing I bet

[viscid sapphire]

Or! A retainer

[indigo lodge]

@viscid sapphire I'VE GOT IT, switch out the 4e title for Theoretical Warrior, and have all the furies learn Steel!!! -8 from less Might, but PLUS TWENTY PUSH FROM FOUR INSTANCES OF STEEL ON EACH BERSERKER

ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHT SQUARES OF FORCE MOVEMENT

[viscid sapphire]

Let’s fucking go hahahaha

[indigo lodge]

I didn't think retainers were allowed LOL, can we go even higher?

[viscid sapphire]

Max retainers? 1?

To not be silly

Or can each hero have one’s

(Assuming there’s an ability that helps)

[viscid sapphire]

Why can’t the furies have theoretical warrior and tireless? No need to -8 from might?

[indigo lodge]

I thought you only get one title per echelon

[viscid sapphire]

Oh?

Well fair enough then

[indigo lodge]

I guess they could potentially get more

[viscid sapphire]

Let’s let them have it

https://tenor.com/view/silly-pin-ball-back-and-forth-steve-martin-the-man-with-two-brains-gif-11158644

Ajax be like

Also if anyone says “okay but that’s an area ability how far can you go with just melee” you can swap to greater kinetic grip for only 3 less push

[viscid sapphire]

@indigo lodge holddddd up. This could go hard

You keep it absorbed until you use it

[indigo lodge]

Hmm, the supernatural + one target restriction isn’t great, it’ll let the furies use Steel without the title, but I’m not sure if it opens up much, since the Talent’s Kinetic Amplifier and Dynamic Power adds so much we can’t switch out the push initiator, am I missing something?

Maybe an enemy ability has a >15 push?

[viscid sapphire]

Can’t find one :/

I guess the talent isn’t using their triggered action at all, is there one they could absorb and use perhaps?

[cunning harbor]

Presumably a fire elementalist one?

Or wait might be a monster ability

[indigo lodge]

Good catch, Lines of Force and Explosive Assistance is a Magic ability, though they scale with Might/Reason so it’s a +2 (or 4 if they can spend the extra HR?)

This is a long shot but can furies strain themselves using Inertia Soak?

[quick quarry]

Fun question, but what might be some ideas for other consumables that you could have that are unique to certain classes (similar to black ash darts for shadows)

I'd love to make some poisons that a CA shadow could make, but I wonder if other classes might have some cool consumables (maybe certain enhancements for elementalists or talents), or special manacles for Nulls?

[viscid sapphire]

I think a Talent can have a maximum of 4 might with a title

So it’s an extra 4 from them, +1 I guess from forceful?

So,
Talent with the Armed and Dangerous title uses:
Gravitic Nova push 15
+5 from Steel
+12 from 2 surges (kinetic amplifier)
+6 from Dynamic power
+2 from a snapdragon on previous turn
+1 from being a Hakaan
+5 from imbument thundering III
+5 from Absorption armor with Lines Of Force absorbed into it and a might of 4+1 from Hakaan forceful

+13 x4 from Fury Hakaans Line Of Force with Forceful and 6 might from Titles
+5 x4 from Fury Hakaans having Steel on themselves learnt via Theoretical Warrior

So push 123

[quick quarry]

Is this the Draw Steel Fury Railgun?

[viscid sapphire]

Haha yeah “What is the maximum force movement you can get on a turn with 5 hero’s?”

[indigo lodge]

Oough but the Talent could also get Armed and Dangerous, learn Black Ash Eruption, and use a Thundering III imbued weapon for + 5 push instead of Forceful III +3

[viscid sapphire]

Oooooo

[indigo lodge]

Hahahaha…. I’ve think I’ve just cracked the code

@viscid sapphire how'd you get the Talent to +4 Might? Another e4 title?

[viscid sapphire]

They have 2 now, same as the Fury yeah

[indigo lodge]

are we capping it at 2 titles?

[viscid sapphire]

I think that’s probably fair, or at least 2 per echelon

[indigo lodge]

@viscid sapphire I've done it, mind checking my math?
4 Haakan Talents with the Forceful and Doomsight trait.
All chose have -5 Stability from Inertia Soak’s strain effect using the 10th-level Psion feature
All has Might 5 = 3 + 1 from Supernatural Power (Ancient or Lost cooking recipe) + 1 from Tireless title
All has the Theoretical Warrior title, giving +1 to Presence (6), and learned the Black Ash Eruption
All can increase any force movement by 18, 12 from Kinetic Amplifier (2 surge)+ from Dynamic Power (1 Clarity)
1 Berserker Fury with the Theoretical Warrior title learning the Steel ability, and 6 Might from Tireless title

All Talents wearing armor with Absorption imbuement (wearable with Armed and Dangerous title), absorbed Lines of Force from their Fury Berserker
All using Steel on themselves to add + 5 to all force movement
One Talent who will initiate the push, who is Doomed, used a Snapdragon, wearing Bracers of Strife, and wielding a Thundering III imbued weapon (wieldable with the Armed and Dangerous title):

Push 15 Black Ash Eruption + 1 Forceful + 5 Thunddering III + 1 Bracers of Strife+ + 2 Snapdragon + 12 Kinetic Amplifier + 6 Dynamic Power + 5 Steel + 5 from negative Stability = 52 square push

Each Talent uses Lines of Force to instead push another Talent, the last one pushes the Fury, adding (+ 1 Forceful + 12 Kinetic Amplifier + 6 Dynamic Power +5 Steel + 5 Lines of Force + 5 from negative Stability) * 4 = 136 square push

The Fury receives the push, uses their own Lines of Force adding + 1 Forceful + 5 Steel + 12 Lines of Force = 18 square push

Total 52 + 136 + 18 = 206 square push

[viscid sapphire]

Huge if true! I’ll peer review your paper when I’m home work work

[meager arrow]

goodness gracious

[indigo lodge]

It’s not over 👀
(Just +1 extra square tho)

[indigo lodge]

WAIT I forgot to add the negative stability to the Lines of Force! Thats an extra 20 squares!!!

[viscid sapphire]

Let’s go! I was trying to find a way to get it to 200

[indigo lodge]

300 next?

[viscid sapphire]

If the talent is large does it also get a +1 on the black ash eruption?

Also you did make a mistake in your math I think 😦

It’s 50 not 45 push!!

😄

[indigo lodge]

Yeag, but if one of them is large they can’t be targeted with Lines of Force

[viscid sapphire]

Ohh okay

[indigo lodge]

Oughhh you’re right!

Fixed

[viscid sapphire]

You could make the last lines of force be from a growth-potioned-up Hakaan

Giving them +1 hehe

[indigo lodge]

Lines of Force doesn’t have the weapon keyword though so no size bonus, but I don’t think anyone in the Lines of Force chain can be bigger since the new target must be same size or smaller

[viscid sapphire]

Ohh so true

I think my only question is, can a talent with lines of force in their armor use it with the spend 1 rage ability?

[indigo lodge]

Yeag the only place we can add a size bonus is right at the start with Black Ash Eruption, but we’d miss out on a Lines proc

[indigo lodge]

Hmm yeag maybe not

[viscid sapphire]

However, I think you also made a mistake in adding the might up, surely it’s 5 for the might, not 4. So instead of 4x2 it’s 5x1?

[indigo lodge]

Absorption doesn’t have the “can pay for it with the heroic
resource of your class for the same cost.” like Theoretical Warrior

[indigo lodge]

Yup yup gonna fix it

[viscid sapphire]

I think the final total is 204 after accounting for the might change?

[indigo lodge]

201 no?

Oh no ur right the Fury isn’t affected

[viscid sapphire]

136+50+18

And okay, maybe we can get 205 lol

[indigo lodge]

Whew, still in the 200

Oh?

[viscid sapphire]

Because what if the enemy is smaller right? If the black ash eruption is on the enemy first, then the lines of force proc from them onto each of the talents etc and then back to the enemy at the end? Or does that mess with the stability stuff

[indigo lodge]

If the lines of force is on another enemy then it’s gotta be redirected to an enemy of the same size or smaller, which I think might work? Just have 5 1M enemies lined up?

Oh no we’d miss out on the negative stability

[viscid sapphire]

Yeah hmm

Yeah I think 204 is the current record

[indigo lodge]

Mhm, if we can somehow use Malice Features as heroes, it’d be the next big break

[indigo lodge]

Theoretically, what if we allowed the gyrotorque…

Oh hah, speaking of items, i forgot about the Snapdragon, +2

[indigo lodge]

And maybe even the Scroll of Shadow Friendship…

[viscid sapphire]

I think the scroll wouldn’t work :/ it only attacks the person you cast it on right? which I’m not sure helps us much

[indigo lodge]

It only fights the the target, but if you use it on the party, it’ll have Lines of Force

[viscid sapphire]

I think it’s a stretch because in my mind the director controls it and that feels like then it’s not the hero’s doing it? Or do you think the caster controls the shadow

Though if you wanted to theoretically see, I’d buy it

[indigo lodge]

I think the shadow would use its Lines on the person it’s tied too since it’s trying to harm them, but yeag, no guarantees

I’m going to bed now, but it’s been fun, I’ll look into gyrotorque tomorrow

[white moat]

next on 'matte reflavouring and editing an existing complication for his players'

[quick quarry]

Got inspired, and after my shadow player asked - starting a new line of items 🗡️ 🐍

[hidden void]

Was going some prep, remixing the fall of blackbottom for the start of our first adventure. I had a bandit combat encounter, but wanted more non-combat encounters. Then it dawned on me: hostage negotiation!

[white moat]

yoink

[quick quarry]

Wait. Don't. Stop.... 😉 (but more of these to come in the future fyi)

[quick quarry]

Full doc now available!

[white moat]

final complication for my 5e campaign port!

[viscid sapphire]

Nice, but still LoE? So just a bane on range outside of 5 squares?

[quick quarry]

@vale panther I don't have anything yet, but want to make a few lvl 1 - 3 devils. Imp and lemurs adjacent Type baddies.

But, I don't have any name ideas, but maybe something like spite devils, or oil devils? Open to suggestions

[vale panther]

Remind me here, do you play in your own world or in Orden/Timescape?

[quick quarry]

My own technically, but I'm borrowing all sorts of stuff 😉

[vale panther]

In Orden, Devils aren't the souls of the Damned like they are in other games, their just people from another manifold - so in that case I'd use Hell-people for all low-level encounters that need hell functionaries, but I'd also put some thought into hell-fauna. Orcs have mohlers, kobolds have drangolins, what do devils have? Hell-hounds at the least, right?

If you're in your custom world based on the typical fantasy assumptions, I'd get a few basic stat blocks of various roles (by stripping existing monsters of identifying features), and have a look at the 'build-an-animal' system. Then put some thought into the narataive/descriptive side of what I want out of it.

Might even try to reverse-etymology the concepts - If the truth is that Hell is all just people but the perception on Man1 is D&D, what sort of person/behavior might have gotten labled 'imp' or 'lemur'? Or, are those terms used for job titles and got confused in translation?

[quick quarry]

So, for my setting, I'd say they are souls of the dead, but not necessarily the damned. Contrary to popular belief, he'll isn't eternal punishment, it's just a war zone (and severe libertarian capitalism). It's got good parts, bad parts, and immortal soldiers

[vale panther]

So what you're looking for is raw recruits?

[quick quarry]

Yeah, I think so. Hellhounds are great support units though

[vale panther]

What are hellish bodies made of? Do they look like the person did in life? Do they remember their life? or are they just powered by the remnant of something before and built essentially new from the material of the hell-world?

[quick quarry]

I love the lore devil, so something like a scroll imp might be on point

[quick quarry]

I think it varies. People make deals to give their soul to hell for something in life. Most times, they have their memories wiped and the soul Substance is all hell wants. A fee choose instead to become exhalted agents of hell, like I'll riggers. They keep their soul, memories, and maybe even firm, just swear immortal loyalty to an archdevil

[vale panther]

So the people in hell are not new people from hell like in the Timescape, but the few, the proud, the contractually obligated?

[quick quarry]

Well, they were when I first wrote it. But, maybe there are natives as well. I call my tiefljngs bael, and have them scattered over many worlds. They have infernal blood, but aren't immediately loyal to hell

Could be many of them were spawned in hell, and call it home because they aren't wanted elsewhere

[indigo lodge]

I’ve been thinking about how one would implement this, how would this work with the fact that you gain HR equal to your Victories? Do you just start an encounter overheated after a while?

[quick quarry]

You could just raise the ceiling? Over heated = x plus your Victories

[indigo lodge]

I don’t think you should have a resource that you need to calculate before an encounter, that would work though

[indigo lodge]

Wait, don’t the beastheart also have a resource cap? Does anyone know how that works in playtest?

[lusty raft]

Sorry for barging in on this discussion from almost a week ago but you *could *also just change the ranges for the tiers of success within the power roll.

I.e., change the ranges to 10 or lower for tier 1, 11-17 (or 11-18?) for tier 2 & stuff like that.

I don't know if that is too noodly to keep track of

But it would enable you to modify the chance of success without messing with the economy of edges & banes

Which is great for keeping tactical play relevant

[quick quarry]

I mean...you 'could' but I feel like that would be very risky to do. It does feel like keeping the tier numbers the same is a core component of the DS experience. I'd sooner probably just add +1 or -1s to the roll

[lusty raft]

That would be an option, too, I suppose. I would just try to keep floating modifiers out of the game but if you just put that +1/-1 modifier straight into your ability descriptions as a player that would work, too

Either way, you could increase the crit chance by smaller degrees that way. for a levelled item, that chance could even go up with levels

But yeah, changing the ranges for the tiers of success might not be the best solution for this particular design problem.

This might just be me having a little too much fun killing sacred cows but I think there is actually a lot of potential in messing with those ranges, though. I don't think that it's really that much of an issue to get used to a new range, as a player; that takes, like, a session or two and then you'd have it internalized just as well as the current DS tier range.

Changing the ranges seems especially interesting when it comes to asymmetrically changing stuff; e.g., have an item or 'permanent' magical effect decrease - or increase! the chance for a tier 1, specifically. Or just a tier 3. Maybe the item requires you to pay a cost or some fey creature granted you a double-edged boon of some kind. Because that is significantly different from a +1/-1 bonus and stuff like that.

The only real issue I can currently see with this is that it would become more difficult for other players to intuitively 'get' the result of your roll, which can be relevant if you have stuff like a triggered action in play that gives allies an edge. Still, as long as you give only one and not all of the players an item/boon like that this should remain fairly easy to remember.

Maybe this whole idea is crazy but I'll just leave it here in this thread for others to do with whatever they want... 😛 😄

[cunning harbor]

I think changing tier ranges is too fundamentally disruptive... for irl play. For something on the Codex, or another VTT that auto-calculates tier results, then I think you could get away with it.

[indigo lodge]

anyone has any ideas for the name of an alligator stormwight kit?

the best i've got is crocken...

[viscid sapphire]

Make it an Aussie croc and call it Salty

[quick quarry]

Yes! One sec...I was working on these

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15IEN1OyxH0gBE5qVdMNDt1DceS8xQnaBUwYk7wGTbTA/edit?usp=drivesdk

I went with Sauren

[indigo lodge]

oh wow you have a lot of these

Sauren is definitely better than crocken, mind if I steal it?

oh interesting, 9 stamina and a disengage bonus? what are you planning for the sauren?

[quick quarry]

@indigo lodge Yes, go ahead. I was thinking they're very good at grappling and PULLing to be specific. So maybe their aspect feature is a free maneuver to move a creature grabbed to another square adjacent? That and something probably called Deathroll 😉

[indigo lodge]

Oh yeag there’s no way there isn’t a deathroll involved

[indigo lodge]

Maybe let them disengage as a free triggered when they successfully grab? Just a thought

[quick quarry]

Oh, yeah! Go in, grab - disengage back, and bring target with

[vale panther]

"Suchos" is from the greek for crocodile

[indigo lodge]

Oh cool! That might work, idk about the mouthfeel of Suchen though

[vale panther]

Another game used "Suchid" for reptile-form of a shapeshifter, could steal that?

[indigo lodge]

That does sound better, but I’d like to stick to the established storwight naming scheme if possible

What’s the game btw?

[vale panther]

Wow, they all end in 'en,' don't they? I hadn't noticed that yet. hmmm.

[vale panther]

Wereworlf: The Apocalypse. The 'Mokole' are reptile/dragon shifters and Suchid is their kamodo/crocodile/etc shape.

[indigo lodge]

You know I’m coming around to Suchen

[quick quarry]

This, they all end in En. Suchen isn't a bad one though, I like that

I did Saur as in dinosaur, but such is nice. I decided on the "id" suffix for insects as I felt they were different enough catagorically to warrent it 😉

[indigo lodge]

Yeag I liked that, the reasoning was clear soon as you looked at it

The -id suffix i mean

Oh Suchus is the greek name for Sobek, that’s cool

[shy grotto]

It's tricky, because the current names are derived from Old English, and they didn't have a word for crocodiles.

[hidden void]

I have decided to convert the Steinhardt's Jaeger class to DS out of spite. Never been more disappointed by a physical product in my life 😭

[topaz pumice]

My players love defense encounters so this is something I'll have to figure out for DS

[quick quarry]

Random thought, but I had an idea for a way to create a high level healing ability that doesn't use surges. I imagine it would be a 9 or even 11 HR ability (or maybe a feature), but thought about the idea of something that allows you or an ally to exchange HR on their turn for stamina (no surge). That way, you can ONLY use it in combat to heal, and giving up HR for stamina on a 1:1 or maybe 1:2 ratio seems decent at high level.

[grim flume]

That is an interesting idea. I will caution that the design intent behind recoveries was to avoid there being a victory threshold beyond which stamina is not an issue. The hypothetical ability you describe has the chance to upset that balance.

[quick quarry]

I'm aware. The key is how-to limit such a feature in or out of combat. I figure if I limit it to HR per turn, it can't be used oo combat.

[vale panther]

There's a complication that says something like "at the beginning of your turn you can choose to not gain any HR this round. Instead..."
You could use a similar feature on a treasure, trinket, or title - you gain no HR this round. Instead, you get some sort of healing bonus (maybe gain THP any time you would have gained HR?)

[cunning harbor]

This still runs into the issue of "guys can you not end combat yet, I want to wait until my turn so i can heal more"

[quick quarry]

Hmmm, technically true. 🤔 Definitly bad faith, but technically true.

[charred gale]

If you’re writing montages for an adventure, do you think it’s good form to include like 10 challenges for the director, so that in theory they could just run straight off the page.

Or is like 4 plenty to get them started and trust the rest to improve?

If I were just writing for myself I’d definitely go the latter route. Not sure in the context of a module I plan to release.

[quick quarry]

I think have them prepared for newer players, and definitely for a module. Outlining examples early on can help people figure out the creative space they can work in later.

[ancient pewter]

trying out a thing @lavish spindle

prototype: striker
weapons platform: artillery
prismatic warfare: controller

so thats 6 HR cap at e1, 9 at e2, 12 at e3, and 15 at e4

im open to other calculations for energy cap tho

like maybe 2+[REAx2]?

[indigo lodge]

very cool how you incorporated victories into this

[ancient pewter]

for 6/8/10/12?

thats a bit tight but maybe thats the play

[ancient pewter]

if i would to add more flavor onto it victories is u like

venting ur systems

cannot miss out on it

as a mecha fan

[indigo lodge]

Do you have the HR allocation to different parts like the old Operator preview? If not, you could change the HR name to Steam for the flavor, it’s what I have for my Operator

[ancient pewter]

given that theyre powered by prismacore, not steam, i prefer energy as mine

i could do power allocation but it doesnt fit the fantasy for the operator for me

[white moat]

last stop on my porting a high level 5e campaign was figuring out the retainers, so i hodge-podged some stuff together for 'em 😎
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fWO5RV4rk8a3_I_3NQHdKPjBTgFiB7OMTG6cFNbmuWA/edit?usp=sharing

rn they're all level 2 (except galaeria because spoilers she doesnt make it to high level) bc im going to be running them through a danger room series of level ups but i did all the stuff up to level 7 since that's where it'll take off

[indigo lodge]

First thing I saw, that’s a great polder name

[white moat]

thanks its an mcdm one

i ran Siege of Castle Rend into Regents of Bedegar into Red Hand of Doom :p

willoughby is from RoB

[white moat]

she doesnt die, the party just didnt like her
quote "she can't even take a bit of relentless and cruel bullying" (this is a joke summary)

[viscid sapphire]

@ancient pewter thoughts on giving it to your players if they win?

[ancient pewter]

prob not

i know many directors like to integrate stuff like that, but i tend to subscribe to the philosophy that the combat space does not exist outside of combat

[viscid sapphire]

How so?

[ancient pewter]

😅 sorry haha what do you mean by how so

[viscid sapphire]

Haha all good, as in like, the combat space isn’t the outside space? What happens in the transition? What makes them different spaces for you? How does that manifest, do you think, compared to what a typical director might experience?

I’m not sure what you mean by it’s different spaces, it sounds different to how I run so I’m curious how you do it

Also side note, my players are fighting the bandit chief tomorrow, and I’m thinking the bloodstones could be 2x level corruption damage to activate. Thoughts? Perhaps it should be more? (I don’t care that the maths doesn’t work on the bandit chief herself)

[ancient pewter]

What happens in the transition?
i swap to another map (usually a world map or some kinda atmospheric wallpaper) and the game goes into theater of the mind
What makes them different spaces for you?
combat maps are a place where movement and positioning matters in a very visual way to me. to put it simply, in non-combat spaces positioning matters to a much lesser extent, and is moreso an indicator of the cinematic stakes of the scene. whether you are standing on top of a box or on a rooftop is only important insofar as it pertains to the focus of the scene. this is not the case in combat, imo, where those are used to determine rules-based effects, such as line of effect or cover.
How does that manifest, do you think, compared to what a typical director might experience?
i feel as if many directors conceptualize the relationship of combat and non combat spaces as digetically similar. said otherwise, my impression is that the combat space is somewhat abstracted space where the illusion of the secondary world is intended to break as little as possible. this is why items persist beyond the end of combat, and why players can utilize the environment in creative ways. because those are things that would logically happen if the illusion of the secondary world is to be believed. i am a very anti-immersion director though, and like breaking the illusion of the secondary world (or as i like to call it, diegesis-based logic) whenever i can, so i prefer to exemplify this by having the combat space become impossible to interact with once combat ends.

[ancient pewter]

basically its like how combat and non combat is conceptualized in a JRPG. u cant walk around the battle map after combat ends in a JRPG, its a seperate hammer space

[ancient pewter]

do u have any corruption immunities in the party?

[viscid sapphire]

Yeah, revenant talent

[viscid sapphire]

That makes a lot of sense to me!

[viscid sapphire]

And I’m thinking that by level 4, why would you never not use it. So 2x level means it should stay ahead of their corruption immunity (assuming they’re the one who takes it)

Otherwise I could make it just a consumable instead

Or tie a classic dnd trope to it and roll a d10 every use. On a 1 it shatters

[ancient pewter]

why not twice highest characteristic? or at the very least equal to characteristic?

[viscid sapphire]

Because at 2nd level you’d have corruption immunity equal to the damage so you’d just use it without any consequence at all

[ancient pewter]

thats fair

i guess its about the texture

[viscid sapphire]

But if it’s a consumable then it’s not as bad

[ancient pewter]

u could do a d6 corruption maybe?

[viscid sapphire]

If it’s a consumable that’s okay, but then once they get to level 6 it’s the same issue

[ancient pewter]

yeah thats fair

[viscid sapphire]

I think I’ll make it a consumable

And do base 4 corruption damage

Then if they save it till level 4 (currently level 2) that’s good for them

Actually I like 1d6

Ahhh I can’t decide!

[indigo lodge]

do we know why the Corven's kabatic wind is fire damage? aren't kabatic winds cold?

[quick quarry]

hot air rises I suspect

[indigo lodge]

Yeag but kabatic means descent 😭

[quick quarry]

oh...well...then I don't know

BUT, speaking of birds - starting to work on my monsters; and looking for input on the first:

[grim flume]

2 things. First, High Ground is not something you start your turn with. Second, High Ground only applies when "standing on ground". At least, as per patreon packet 4.

[quick quarry]

maybe I should adjust to say if that if it starts its turn ABOVE the eventual target?

[indigo lodge]

Why does it have to be start of turn?

[cunning harbor]

Feel like it’d probably be simpler to just be if it has high ground when it uses the ability.

[quick quarry]

I suppose it doesn't. Yeah, if I just make it "When it makes an attack with High Ground, it deals an extra 2 damage. Which makes sense because even though they can fly, I don't want to innately give them a damage bonus JUST for being higher - I want them to be incentivised to fly up and perch.

[charred gale]

I think it's just a combination of A) that was the just flavor choses for Corven, similar to Lighting for wolves.
B) Fire is also just the concept of "destruction" sans any combustion. Katabatic winds are certainly destructive. Could easily have been called Tornado Wing or something

[indigo lodge]

I might have found the answer:
Since the katabatic winds are descending, they tend to have a low relative humidity, which desiccates the region. - Wikipedia

[charred gale]

oooh

[quick quarry]

I like it

[grim flume]

Maybe if they start their turn flying they get the damage boost. Then, heroes are incentivized to take out the ones that end their turns flying. Tactics!

[shadow sparrow]

Copied from a different thread:
Folks, I have a very weird question, related to homebrewing a bit: has anyone tried to mix and match abilities between classes, and did it break anything at your table?

Context: a few days ago I've came in asking for a Tactitian build that would be more DPS-oriented and not as Support-y. I was given a hint that I could just take the Shining Armor or Mountain kit for a Shadow and be done with it, and... it has turned out almost perfect!

"Almost", as in "I'd like to keep the Vanguard's Parry triggered action". Why? Well, I personally enjoy the idea of a Sword-n-Board fighter, who can go nuts a bit. Weird as that would sound, a Shining Armor Shadow, with a Vanguard's parry, is what I want. Mix in "You were watching the wrong one" and I got a somewhat team-oriented guy, who can protect an ally in a clutch. All for the cost of them being less sturdy than a regular Tactitian, which looks fair enough.

[quick quarry]

Short answer, no. I'd say testers have been focused on game as is, so there isn't enough players to say how balanced or fun such a hack might do.

You can certainly try, and report back but uncharted territory.

[shadow sparrow]

Fair enough. Won't promise anything as to not disappoint, but I'm certainly looking into... things like these. The idea isn't to "fix" something, but rather just to provide additional options at the table.

[glass light]

The "Learn From a Master" research project could be adapted to train up a Parry Triggered Action on a Shadow without too much disruption. It wouldn't come pre-packaged, but going through the time spent training can impart a greater sense of ownership of the character to the player.

I think in general, adding Triggered Action options can't get too out of hand, because you still only get one per round

[indigo lodge]

Certain triggered actions might become too powerful when given to different classes, but Parry isn’t really one of them

[quick quarry]

I'm trying to think which triggered action would be too powerful on another class....

[indigo lodge]

Clever Trick, Feedback Loop, Lines of Force, and all the ones that teleport are all very powerful

Also, imagine a perma-stealth Shadow with My Life For Yours

[brisk blade]

I mean, i’ve realized that the sword fighter i’m the most interested in playing is the Shining Armor Shadow as well. But that’s still not really multiclassing, it’s a more unconventional kit that the shadow has access to.
Now, an ability that i think would be broken is the Talents ’Minor Telechinesis’ on a Might Fury

Being able to pull opponents to you and then knock them away, or knock them away and then mentally knock them away again sounds really good

[glass light]

Each combo might be good, but due to the once per round nature, I don't think any such combo can become truly broken

[indigo lodge]

Minor Telekinesis is a maneuver though, so outside of the extra range Furies will have more bonuses just using the Knockback maneuver

[quick quarry]

Actually, I think you can get that one RAW with a title, can't you? (Marshal gives My Life for Yours)

[quick quarry]

Yeah, I wonder if a fury with that minor telekinesis its pull then push as both action and maneuver...is it more, equal, or less damage than their signature. I suspect maybe in some minor cases its par with a signature - but that's about it.

[indigo lodge]

Oh neat! So then I guess it would be as good as a 1st echelon title

[shadow sparrow]

Well... yes! I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel or anything. The more I look into it, the more I think feel that Shadow is... just a person that hits hard. If we take Caustic Alchemy Collegue for once, their triggered action is just a dodge roll, and their second thing is that... they hit hard.

So, as weird as it may sound, Shadow allows for a portrayal of any proper combatant, looking to dispatch their enemies. All it would take to reskin it is... just come up with some cool names. Funny as it is, I feel like that even giving Shadow access to the Vanguard doctrine would... break nothing.

[quick quarry]

probably not. You'd have to look at higher levels if you're worrying about certain themes - but Shadow and Fury really do cover a lot of classic archetypes - 4th level fury being able to add elemental damage with a surge covers a lot of themes too

[indigo lodge]

@viscid sapphire why did we not account for the Forceful imbuement when calculating the max push again?

[viscid sapphire]

Ohhhh yes I think there was a reason

But I can’t remember

Let me try remind myself

Oh I think it was because it had to be supernatural and Lines of Force isn’t supernatural?

[indigo lodge]

Supernatural is magic and psionic isn’t it?

Lines of Force is magic

Yea yea

So is that another 15?

[viscid sapphire]

Wait what?? Damn that’d be great

Yeah 3x5 so I think that brings it to 221?

Actually it’s 3x4 because the Fury is wielding a thundering III weapon which is better

218 push then…?

[indigo lodge]

it was one of the Talents that was holding the Thundering weapon, but a character can wield both since they are benefiting different abilities

I think Thundering's wording makes it a separate push actually, so we might have to switch to Forceful and use Gravitic Nova or Melt Their Faces for the initial push

so +15 and -5 but +3

219?

[ancient pewter]

has anyone experimented with something more granular with victory rewards?

[viscid sapphire]

New WR

[viscid sapphire]

Granular how do you think?

[ancient pewter]

like currently a hard encounter can be anywhere between 1 and 3 extra hero slots as i understand it

and easy can be between -1 and +0 extra hero slots

i wonder if theres not some way to break down victory rewards even further

cuz a high-hard fight could be worth as much as a low-hard fight

[viscid sapphire]

Ahh I see

[charred gale]

As long as the rate of XP gain remains linear it shouldn't matter how fine grained it is. In theory. Game texture might be different.

Something like this:

| ES            | Victories |
+---------------+-----------+
| -1 Hero slots | 1         |
+---------------+-----------+
| +0 Hero slots | 1.25      |
+---------------+-----------+
| +1 Hero slots | 1.5       |
+---------------+-----------+
| +2 Hero Slots | 1.75      |
+---------------+-----------+
| +3 Hero Slots | 2         |
+---------------+-----------+```

If an objective modifies the encounter difficulty, adjust by 2 rows.

[ancient pewter]

the issue is how to do fractions of a victory

[charred gale]

they got calculators

[quick quarry]

I was actually thinking that there should be a resource that's equal to a 1/3 of a victory, so when you get 3, you get a victory; they'd be a great reward for an Easy encounter

[ancient pewter]

oh like a heart container in zelda

[viscid sapphire]

3 wins to a victory, 8 victories to a pound

[ancient pewter]

under this u get 1 victory for -1, 1 victory and 1 triumph for +0, 1 victory and 2 triumphs for +1, 1 victory and 3 triumphs for +2, 2 victories for +3 or +4

like that?

"triumph" is my WIP word for mini victories

get 4 and u get a victory

[quick quarry]

Ooh, triumph is a good word

[cunning harbor]

I’ll also note that the dragon knight has a parry adjacent triggered action they can grab.

[cunning harbor]

IMO heavy armor kits are the best option for shadows, especially black ash. I’m a fan of Mountain myself, since shadows are good at stacking edges which benefits the 0/0/4 damage spread.

[shadow sparrow]

I know, but that's a bit different. That's ancestry stuff. I will have to tinker with that for my game, surely, as my world feature stuff not found in the book, but I'm ready for things to break here, yet rather have classes be working properly.

[ancient pewter]

still a bit unsold about +4 being worth the same as +3, but idk how to break it down further. maybe -1 is worth 3 triumphs and +0 is worth 1 victory? just shifting it up a bit?

-1: 3 triumphs
+0: 1 victory
+1: 1 victory, 1 triumph
+2: 1 victory, 2 triumphs
+3: 1 victory, 3 triumphs
+4: 2 victories
or maybe...?
-1: 1 victory
+0: 1 victory, 1 triumph
+1: 1 victory, 2 triumphs
+2: 1 victory, 3 triumphs
+3: 2 victories
+4: 2 victories, 1 (or 2?) triumph(s)

[ancient pewter]

i just had a new random, crazy, stupid idea

i think people remember me ranting about immunities/weaknesses a while back

what if there was a sorta, elemental typing thing? each faction of reasonable size is associated with one of the elemental types, which gives them [level] immunity to it but [level] weakness to an opposing element

cold-fire
holy-corruption
psychic-sonic
acid-lightning
poison-any

[glass light]

I've done something like that in a 5e hack for my "Heaven vs Hell" game. I found that making the damage types rarer to access was necessary to prevent swamping out other tactical elements. Given, that's in a different system with very uneven damage type distribution, but it made for cool storytelling amidst the tactical fights.

[indigo lodge]

That sounds reasonable to me, though weakness/immunity I think should cap at 5 so maybe it scales off of something else

[ancient pewter]

level/2 then?

[glass light]

Mid Echelon 2, Weakness/Immunity 5 isn't that bad, honestly

[ancient pewter]

my idea is

this wouldnt work for every monster

just the decently sized factions

so undead, war dogs, demons

angulotls, bugbears, devils, dwarfs, high/wode/shadow elves, giants, gnolls, goblins, hobgoblins, humans, kobolds, lizardfolk, orcs, timeraiders, voiceless talkers

could remove some of those

[glass light]

I'd do it on an adventure-by-adventure basis, to keep things clear: not all giants have these weaknesses/strengths, but the ones you're interacting with now do

[ancient pewter]

oh so like an adventure formating thing

thats a cool idea

[brisk blade]

Hm, that essentially makes the game into Pokemon. And where i don’t dislike the idea, i also don’t see the need for it either
The game is tactical as it is, i think. I prefer to have weaknesses be only where they really would exist (such as mummies being weak to fore because they’re litterally dried up as part of the preservation)

[ancient pewter]

as ive mentioned before, my issue is immunities are very one sided and not very interactive

[brisk blade]

I’d say they are though. If a creature has fire immunity 5, it forces you to make different decisions around it, making you interact with it differently. It makes you think on your feet, and forces the party to deal with this differently than if it didn’t have fire immunity. It’s interractive in the same way that a wall is interractive, removing the best option and making you think differently

[ancient pewter]

the vast majority of monsters have corruption or poison immunity tho

[brisk blade]

How many have 0 immunitys?

Or weaknesses for that matter

Because i agree, it does make corruption and poison worse types to pick

[ancient pewter]

heres the original post: https://discord.com/channels/332362513368875008/1352717341443489872

holy and sonic have none

acid and cold only have a few

holy is by and large the best damage type in the game since most enemies that have weaknesses have it to holy

and no enemies have immunity to holy

i also just fundamentally dont agree that disengagement from a mechanic is particularly interesting

[brisk blade]

Yeah, i would agree that some types being resisted by more monsters just makes those types worse, and that that is a flaw in the game design. But maybe that's just the first batch of monsters, and it will even out as we go on

Allthough, i agree that it's valid to raise that point to the design team. One type should not be this much better than another at game launch, it streamlines the game in the end

[ancient pewter]

ive talked about it before, so im not super interested in raising it again

it is what it is and im not super tolerant of "there will be a more balanced spread post-release" as a reasoning

anyways thats not why i posted this

i just wanna provide more texture to this mechanism

[brisk blade]

Well, the point is to create as many different lines for the players to victory as possible. You want the players to have to think on their feet as much as possible. Turning a power off or at least down is a goal of forcing a party to play differently than normal, just as turning a power up is. And there is no reason to not use all tools at your disposal

[ancient pewter]

if there are these many damage immunities in the game, then why do so many abilities not interface with this mechanic? and im not talking about "just deal a different damage type". i mean, why do so few things not interact with this mechanic directly

[brisk blade]

Yeah, that sounds reasonable. I am fine with some types being better than others though. I think it makes for a realistic environment.
Hmm, how about items that would cast enchantments on a battlefield, causing everything in the room to gain weakness towards a specific type

[ancient pewter]

i suppose this is where i differ from mcdm, i gather, cuz idc about realism

thats another way to do it too, yeah

theres a few abilities that grant typed weakness

they ultimately boil down to "deal more damage" which is meh for me personally but its enough texture where i think most players will be satsified by it

[brisk blade]

Well, damage types are what i call a "hook". It's a possible way to interact with a creature from a game design pov. So adding the concept of type immunity and type weakness is a good way to produce further things. Maybe a future talent could give out some weakness to a creature for some time, making it easier to beat down
Maybe in the future, they could have different environments cause weaknesses or resistances, even if they haven't figured this out yet

[charred gale]

Go full Larian studios on 'em

[brisk blade]

I mean, i think that having a reward as extra damage is enough. I think it would be more interesting to figure out how we could grant weaknesses.
A thing i thought of is, imagine that you're out in a snowstorm. A snowstorm could grant every creature in there Cold Weakness 1 and Fire Immunity 1, and have it be worse the worse the snow storm becomes

And a desert would grant the opposite

[ancient pewter]

thats an interesting idea

i like the idea of preparing to fight certain enemies by changing up ur abilities tho

[brisk blade]

How do you mean?

[ancient pewter]

like u know goblins have poison immunity

but like

lightning weakness

or smth

like in my model above

[brisk blade]

mhmm

[ancient pewter]

so u swap ur abilities to match that

[ancient pewter]

i realize it is for some, but it isnt for me

same response with "the game is tactical enough" honestly

[brisk blade]

The reasoning for "weakness only granting extra dmg" is that if you make the ability more powerful, it becomes more devastating every time you use it in an encounter.
A creature having weakness X means that i can realize what it does and give it out relatively freely. If i also make cold weakness make an creature loose movement for example, it will swing the encounter harder, making it rougher to hand out cold weakness.

(If that is something you imagined)

I'd rather have a different mechanic for different sub-effects, and let weakness be what it is

[ancient pewter]

well yes, thats a solid arguement for not letting abilities inflict weakness

[brisk blade]

One problem i see with that is that it would make players stop and think every time they enter a new environment. If the party goes into the mountains, it would make players feel like they had to stop and redesign their characters mid-session in order to better fit the creatures that you could find in the mountains.
It would make the game into a preparation fest rather than going out into the wilds and experiencing the drama that the director had prepared for you. And it would mean that a certain chunk of the game would transform into "character rebuilding", and i don't think that would be good to have in the core base game

[ancient pewter]

thats the intent of this sorta design

[brisk blade]

Which is understandable. It is also, however, against one of the fundamental pillars of the game (cinematic) (and arguably heroic as well), since sitting and plotting and preparing before leaving camp usually is put down to a montage in movies, if it's even part of it

[ancient pewter]

i think the amount of limited choice on abilities really downplays what u might be imagining tho

since its not like u have dozens of abilities to choose from. realistically you have two to four sets of 2 or 4

[brisk blade]

So i think that this sort of design would have to be homebrew, or at best some expansion

[ancient pewter]

yes?

thats why im posting it in the homebrew channel

[brisk blade]

fair enough

So, we're trying to add an essentially "prep-round" for DS, am i getting you right?

[ancient pewter]

by way of having each decently large faction have an associated elemental weakness and immunity

you can also do it like how f1zz3r said it

use this as a structuring mechanism for adventures

[brisk blade]

as a thing you do when ending a respite, or maybe something you can choose to do on a given pause in an adventure

[ancient pewter]

iirc u can only change abilities/kits/enchantments when you respite

so that might give another reason to rest

[brisk blade]

Hmm, i think we might wanna include project points in here as well

[ancient pewter]

i mean, thats RAW isnt it?

[brisk blade]

Since goblins can hit and run without triggering opportunity attacks, we might wanna add specific tools that would be used against creatures trying to disengage from you

So we homebrew items that would be good against certain creatures

[brisk blade]

Yes, but i mean that we can use it to our advantage

We can include it into this "prep round" thing

[ancient pewter]

i wasnt actually thinking u would need to change the structure of the game

this is just another reason to change out ur abilities if u want

but i dont think its neccessary

[brisk blade]

I mean, we're homebrewing, none of this is neccessary
But then again, that's not what you're trying to accomplish?

[dreamy cypress]

Has anyone else been using "equal to your echelon" as a scaling value in abilities? I find it useful for some things.

You can also use your Level or a characteristic score as a scaling value (such as for damage and the like) but Level scales from 1-10 and characteristic scores scale from 2-5 (in most cases where this language would come up, and not counting anything that boosts scores).

Meanwhile echelon scales from 1-4, so it starts and ends lower than characteristic scores, but still provides scaling to make the effect get stronger over time. A static value like 2 would probably work ok in a lot of these cases, but I'm still wrapping my head around how the math changes at higher levels

[ancient pewter]

thats a cool idea

i feel like its effectively the same as [highest stat] tho?

just -1

[dreamy cypress]

The -1 can matter a lot, especially for things like number of targets, forced movement distances, damage immunity etc.

Or any cases where the value would stack, or apply multiple times in a combat

Mostly I'm just wondering if there's a specific reason the devs don't use it, other than it maybe being a little bit harder to remember than stats and level?

[ancient pewter]

prob that

[ancient pewter]

this is a cool usage, especially for stacking bonuses

[charred gale]

Oh yeah, I just remembered. RAW being underwater does this. You gain fire immunity 5, lighting weakness 5. Could probably use that as a model to base further enviormental effects.

[brisk blade]

Yeah, and you can scale it really easilly, to reflect differently fierce environments. Like, you can give fire immunity 1 and lightning/cold weakness 1 if you're in a damp cave, or up it to 2 if it's raining outside, and so on

[charred gale]

I would probably model each effect as a DTO for maximum portability between encounters

[dreamy cypress]

That is a neat idea, especially for future Elementalist abilities

[dreamy cypress]

don't the anguilotls have the Wet condition that does something like this?

[brisk blade]

I think they do, yes. And anguilotls also interract with the wet condition as well

[ancient pewter]

idea struck me for an operator feature

Overload: On your turn, take 1d6 damage as a free triggered action that cannot be reduced in any way then take an additonal manuever or move action. Each time you use this feature until you take a respite, this damage and number of dice rolled is doubled.

[indigo lodge]

I like it

[ancient pewter]

inspired by youknowwhat

[indigo lodge]

Would have to be a later level feature though right

[ancient pewter]

would need some testing but prob lvl 5 or 8?

would suck if this was ur level 2 ability and u got unlucky then killed ur hero

[indigo lodge]

Mhm, I can see it as one of the subclass features

[ancient pewter]

also true

i think either way it feels like an e2 feature

[ancient pewter]

u could even do a simple version of vanguard parry

Brace
Keywords: Melee, Weapon
Type: Triggered
Distance: Melee 1
Target: Self or one ally
Trigger: A creature deals damage to the target.
Effect: The damage is halved.```

[ancient pewter]

thinking about a potential series of "enchanter" titles that provide additional imbuement choices

is this anything?

[indigo lodge]

why not just make the imbuement choices global? are they stronger?

[ancient pewter]

well its like

inhabiting the fantasy of an enchanter

these are unique imbuements only you have the skill to make

they could be stronger but idk if i wanna balance that

[indigo lodge]

ah

I'm not sure if I'd pickthat title if the options aren't stronger, unless maybe if it lets you imbue imbuements that aren't normally imbueable on that item type?

[ancient pewter]

i mean titles are given away by the director

even if they arent inherently stronger, more build options is always ideal right?

maybe these imbuements dont require prereq items

[indigo lodge]

Yeag maybe, but why a title? Can’t you just make it so that only player have access to the prereq of the extra options?

Actually, shouldn’t it be a Career?

[ancient pewter]

career is an interesting idea

[cunning harbor]

lol I have a very similar feature for my bodyguard, just for triggered actions instead.

[ancient pewter]

cursed thought

thinking about re-adding in the mark chart

from a previous version

[vale panther]

How is this title different from 'discovering rare recipes' that most people don't have? Could adapt the "Faction Member" title to an enchanters guild maybe? What kind of choices are you thinking? Adapting existing recipes, new recipes, etc?

[ancient pewter]

functionally there is no difference but titles are more visible to players

i was thinking new imbuements

[vale panther]

I'm not sure why that would be, but maybe it's a situation of you knowing your players' habits? I would imagine it's enough to put a book with a unique imbuement and comments from the writer which imply there are more volumes into a treasure/reward, and let the player decide if it's a hook worth following up on.

If you wanna do it as titles though, are you thinking one-off titles where each one grants one reward, or something like the ones in the book where getting a title gives you a choice of rewards?

[ancient pewter]

I'm not sure why that would be
treasures and titles are mechanically more visible since they are signposted as things to chase. presentationally you could always just say "if you discover x thing, you can make y imbuement" but titles have the expectation that they will be visible from the getgo, which makes it more attractive to me as a mechanical incentive.
are you thinking one-off titles where each one grants one reward
it would be a one time reward, an idea is forming in my head of roles a la officers from K&W. you could be the organization's "head enchanter" or something like that.

idk why theres pushback on this particular aspect?

re titles

[vale panther]

If my responses are coming off as pushback, I apologize. I'm trying to learn more about your goal and needs here so I can contribute usefully.

[ancient pewter]

i think its just that moffles pointed out something similar re it being a title

[vale panther]

I wouldn't worry about it. I'll have to wrap my brain around using a title instead of the methods I'm normally inclined, but I can do that.
Looking back at your original question though, you asked "is this anything?" - what kind of feedback are you looking for?

[ancient pewter]

is this an interesting idea, basically

[vale panther]

If the only benefit of the title is access to projects for item imbuements that other people don't get, I don't think we can evaluate that without seeing the imbuements. But given the sort of one-and-done nature of magic item recipes (how many Armor of Glorious Purposes does one party need), it's kind of limited in the long term, like the Owed a Favor title - although, probably better than Owed a favor.

Really, I think there's a hangup over the question "are titles in competition for slots?" Titles have been presented in some cases as 'these are as common as the director wants,' but then there's an advice section that says 'approximately once per echelon' (which IMHO is the opposite of the vibe I got from them originally). So whether Enchanter titles as you've described them here will work will basically come down to whether your players want them and how you build/present them - but you know that. If you want any help tuning them, I'm always happy to be a sounding board.

[ancient pewter]

thats fair advice

i think its sorta up to me to write up some imbuements then

i was somewhat imagining this as part of potentially one of two larger themes

an "enchanter" chain of titles that grant increasingly powerful or widereaching imbuements (akin to the fleet captain or general titles) or an "organization officer" chain of titles

this is me just saying shit

ill end up making the imbuements

[cunning harbor]

for what purpose?

[ancient pewter]

cuz i thought it was neat

[vale panther]

I really liked the table version of Marked, but I understand that simplifying the mechanic for a core class makes it more approachable.

How are you thinking of applying the old style? Just swapping it in during your games, or stealing the idea to implement in another way?

[ancient pewter]

i think just some finetuning and adjustments of the effects would be fine

this is more of a mind exercise, not something super actionable

[vale panther]

Imagine an adventure that involves going to deep into a wode, and the Heroes emerge in the past or an alternate Orden. And each hero has a feature changed to a throwback state because of the shift. Until returned to normal Orden

[ancient pewter]

wait, that actually rules

[grim haven]

That's sick af actually XD

Old world means old rules

Just cause you're the same person doesn't mean the world works the same

[ancient pewter]

one of them still rolls 2d6

[deep meteor]

I'm finally getting ready to port my home PF2E game to DS. One of my players is a Minotaur, which is size 2. Would really suck to take that away from him IMO, and minotaur monsters are also size 2 in DS. Anything I should watch out for here?

Afaik he's getting ported to a berserker fury so it's not like he'd even be stepping on a green elementalist's toes. Really seems to just work in DS, but I'm curious if there's anything I'm missing

[ancient pewter]

size 2 is very powerful in this game. i would reccomend just having them play a hakaan instead

[vale panther]

I think reskinning a hakkan as a minotaur would work really well.

[deep meteor]

It's powerful in PF2E and most D20 fantasy, I'm just curious to what degree. Grappling and stability interactions aren't any better than Immovable Object. Is it just due to longer reach for attacks of opportunity?

[ancient pewter]

ur effective size is doubled, yes

which means all your ranges are increased

[deep meteor]

Thoughts on mitigating his effect on the battlefield by cutting base speed to like 3? Forces Charge action a lot which could be flavorful for minotaur, even though it'll still be pretty strong on berserker.

[charred gale]

I mean, are you coming in at level 1? You could just dock him some treasure

[indigo lodge]

I mean the Boren Stormwight is size 2 and they aren't that much more powerful than any other heroes

[deep meteor]

Right designers aren't counting on a berserker fury with size 2 but all in all it doesn't seem that OP. Outclasses all other ancestries as a frontline class – absolutely, but maybe that's okay

[ancient pewter]

its locked behind two layers of exclusivity (specialization and a specific kit within that specialization)

[charred gale]

That's a good point. Always want to be careful you don't unintentionally homebrew out someone's niche.

On the flipside though, I don't mind doing that if nobody at the table actually occupying that niche. I'd do that all the time to 5e rogues.

[glass light]

The biggest benefit of being size 2 is Aura and Burst scaling. The Fury doesn't have that many options in that category. Contrasting that with a Troubadour, where a boost to Auras and Bursts would be quite impactful, I think the class the player wants to port over matters. If they weren't a Fury, I think I'd be more hesitant. Modifying the Hakaan Ancestry to be size 2 (for the price of 1 Ancestry point perhaps) shouldn't be too disruptive.

[white moat]

i'm brainblasting how to convert intrigue to draw steel
a lot of it seems actually pretty simple given the domain stats are already constrained to relatively small numbers
also keeping in mind the fact it doesnt lead into warfare proper
generating hero tokens and malice for the big climactic boss battle sounds like it goes hard as an idea

i'm also thinking about rather than power dice and that whole thing simplifying it to just, your domain gives you a new thing you can do with hero tokens. and you can just do it all the time

a big sticking point is defense levels and how that interacts with the fact that DCs are static
you can kinda convert it via easy/medium/hard tests but then it also needs to represent the default position of the domain
so i'm contemplating if it should be a comparative thing (i.e. if your bonus is higher than their defense score, its an easy test, if its lower its a hard test) but that feels like it might be double dipping since higher bonuses lead to higher rolls anyway

i like defense levels existing, there should be a measure of how hard you are to fuck with, and i like there being different axes of how hard to fuck with you are, it's just difficult to convert it in a way that works with the box system
though dropping the box system also could work depending

hm. i wonder if negotiations could be a good basis instead
though its rough if we want more defensive stats

plus i dont want them to be too close because negotiations should feed into your intrigue in the same way adventuring for other people feeds into it

actually that makes it easy to just drop the concept of a default 'appeal to a domain' action
thats just a negotiation

[quick quarry]

As @glass light mentioned, having it cost an extra ancestry point makes sense.

However, if I can shamelessly plug my own stuff, I might recommend the Tauren stormwight kit here: https://discord.com/channels/332362513368875008/1362517333188546810

Also, I wonder if you could make a trait that says size 2, but Auras are reduced by 1 square (min 1)?

[white moat]

wait i think i just giga brained it

[glass light]

Not really? The base scaling increases the number of adjacent spaces as well, so an Aura 1 can't reduce from the already inflated 12 around a Size 2 creature to the regular 8 around a Size 1. I think that just delays abilities feeling good for little balance correction.

[quick quarry]

Yeah, its not perfect but just wondering if size 2 is a 1 or 2 point ancestry cost, and if 2, would adding that limit bring it down to a 1 point cost.

[glass light]

I think it makes sense as a 1 cost on top of already being size 1L

[white moat]

it is very funny to me that matt talks about converting the system to be more like how red hand of doom does victory points because when running red hand of doom i converted the victory points system so it benefitted warfare LMAO
instead of individual victory points i had each thing give a warfare benefit instead

[white moat]

i think i just backdoor engineered myself into simply not creating the entire subsystem but instead using other parts of the buffalo
which is the best feeling

[cunning harbor]

Since berserker fury already has a feature that lets their effective size be bigger, I think being size 2 is more or less balanced for a 2 point pick

So that would leave two points worth of chooseable traits

[white moat]

i had a fucking brainwave dawg

watch this

[cunning harbor]

👀

[deep meteor]

Thanks everyone for the minotaur discussion! I was thinking of asking my player to use a reflavored stormwight to avoid any issues, so the Tauren is actually perfect thanks Zetesofos! Otherwise, slightly nerfed Hakkan is good enough too

[deep meteor]

I have no idea what intrigue or domain or defense levels or box system means in this context but it's always nice to watch a mad genius work in real time

[dreamy cypress]

Needed a DTO statblock to go with my terrain pieces

[dreamy cypress]

Ok so I’m watching the Quinns Quest review of Slugblaster (thanks Matt for the channel rec) and I think the Beats system is really interesting. If you aren’t familiar, I suggest going and watching the video, because it’s good and Quinns does a better job of explaining the system and what makes it cool (and not restrictive to your RP) than I would.

I’m wondering if something like it could exist in Draw Steel? Some kind of “Chronicle” system that runs alongside the advancement your character gets from levels, titles, and items. The player picks “arcs” for their character from options like confronting a prophesied fate or seeking redemption, and after the trials and tribulations of that personal story they come out stronger. Again I recommend the Quinns Quest video, this idea might sound less weird after watching it

[ancient pewter]

ill watch the vid to get more context, but is it similar to the system in heart/spire?

[dreamy cypress]

Maybe? I know Heart had a system also called Beats that sounded cool, I'll go back and refresh my memory

[ancient pewter]

theres major, minor, and zenith beats iirc?

[dreamy cypress]

Ok looking back at Heart, not quite. The Beats in Heart are like specific goals that advance your class abilities when you meet them, kind of an alternative to XP. The Beats in Slugblaster (specifically the Arc beats) are more like mini-storylines made up of vague scenes that drive character progression, but have mechanical weight from the metacurrencies that they consume and give out. That's closer to what I'm thinking about