Matte's Acolyte!

[hasty vine]

notes: I did steal some names for stuff from some awesome people here, namely "fervour" and a lot of formatting from @limber oracle and the core conceit of the bargain feature from the harbinger by @hallow nimbus !

[cerulean spruce]

Good bones, looking forward to seeing more

[eager basin]

For the 18 Fiendish Aspect, I might just make it give you an extra triggered action to use on anything, rather than specifically a free fiendish rebuke

The 18 Undying aspect is certainly too strong. There isn't any way for the enemies to remove any of the hero's Fervor, so it's just perfect immunity forever. I like the concept of it, but the execution needs there to be some way to kill the hero (even if it's very hard)

[hasty vine]

18?

oh i see

sure

i dont think we can really make much comment on 10th level features yet tbh

[eager basin]

I have gotten lucky enough to be in a playtest so I have seen 10th level stuff, but "can't die" just doesn't lead to fun gameplay unless there is some way around it

there becomes no risk

[hasty vine]

tracks

i changed it btw

[hasty vine]

i could see it but i kinda like them all making it so you can use their respective triggered action for free

i like making it attach to the class

[eager basin]

I agree that they should be in a cycle all working the same way, makes the mental overhead much easier.

[hasty vine]

ok im still iffy on the new numbers but

beginning the process of churning out abilities

[eager basin]

for drain vitality, how long does the Shield last?

A burst 2 as a signature is also very strong

[hasty vine]

i believe i based that off conduit having a burst 2 thats all damage

[hasty vine]

ogh i went between shield to temp stamina to shield and forgot to readd the usnt

oh it is real i'm just stupid and used the wrong numbers

ok that tracks

i'll change it to 1 burst

changed it to be comparable to kinetic pulse

[eager basin]

yup yup

[hasty vine]

slow and steady wins the race

[hallow nimbus]

I'd definitely agree this has good bones! Always cool to see people take a stab at homebrewing classes

[silk lily]

ive been thinking for how to word this but - how should one provide feedback about this if they arent a patron and as such dont have access to the new rules?

[hasty vine]

unsure on the numbers of this but i think it goes hard

(tags are off, i fixed on doc)

i might make the area inflict weakened tbh

i also updated everything so theres a bunch more flavour text

everything on the doc up to 5 fervour abilities should be done (excluding some of the higher level transformation stuff, which requires the higher levels to like. exist first)

[hasty vine]

i do keep wondering if i should make it so that Bargain makes you lose stamina equal to your recovery value rather than expending one

so its not just eating purely into a long term resource

its also more dramatic

[hasty vine]

i might make it either 1d6 or 2d6 flat idk

yeah i'll pull the trigger on that

and then in playtesting if it turns out to be negligible i can make it 2d6 base

[hasty vine]

i also now realise that i might want to make the resource gen a static 2
since the bonus condition of killing something doesnt work in solo encounters
and the other ones that get 1d3 have a pretty easy to trigger one
but also i like the acolyte generating off 1d3s so
i might have to think of an alt way for them to generate bonus
i dont want to attach it to bargain but i might

[hasty vine]

i realised i should just tie it to the subclass triggered actions

[hasty vine]

ok im stupid i resolved the issue without having to resort to that

i just made it proc off allies

[eager basin]

I definitely like the idea of it, but battles tend to be over in just a few rounds.

I might make it instead place down like 3-5 tiles in different spots

means much higher spread, and you can also sandwich/trap enemies between different spots

ooh, idea for indestructible life passive: what if it also allowed you to ignore time restrictions on resurrection abilities? Or at least greatly increase them.

I like induce paranoia, on the 3 costs

[hasty vine]

that was kinda the intention

i could make it more explicit

[eager basin]

it just mentions that any part of your body counts as full remains, doesn't say anything about time restrictions (for example, a resurrection spell that can only be used within 24 hours of death)

[hasty vine]

i forgor what my own feature did

deciding between archfey and fiend who gets lie and who gets persuade
i keep alternating back and forth
on the one hand, at least in my setting, fiends dont really lie and deceive (their deals just tend to suck for you), whereas fey are tricksy and will actively try to use words to trick your into deals
on the other, devils are traditionally silver tongued and fey are charming

[eager basin]

I know fey often have a reputation for lying with the truth, which would still count as lying IMO for the purposes of a skill check

I like Fiend persuade and Fey lie

[hasty vine]

thats where i ended up imo

the idea is broadly that eventually there'll be one for each major supercategory of creature

basically if i can think of a way for you to slowly transform into it

celestial im kinda iffy on because its hard to not just. imagine thats a conduit

making a pact with a unicorn and being able to inflict terror into peoples souls isnt standard

but it could be neat

[eager basin]

I think it's unique enough from a conduit, considering you are basically becoming an angel

[hasty vine]

yeah

[eager basin]

focus on the uncanny and terrifying aspects of it

[hasty vine]

actually these are probably easier to reflavour than i thought

[eager basin]

biblically accurate angel vibes

[hasty vine]

i do like my angels to go terrifyingly hard

shoutout dame aylin from bg3 for making people recoil at her (albeit justified) rage

[hasty vine]

i might shunt it down to 3 and shunt one of the 3s up to 5

(and rebalance accordingly)

probably bloodletting

[eager basin]

yeah, bleeding can be powerful

[hasty vine]

hm i wonder if these are too similar

eh nah

[eager basin]

I think they both work as abilities, but it might be good to have them at different cost tiers

[hasty vine]

well thats what i was sayin

enter the beyond was a 3 before growing corruption was

so am i swapping it and growing corruption and then moving the bleeding back?

bc i just upgraded this but i feel like it could go back

[eager basin]

I like growing corruption as a 5 cost personally

give it several origin spot

maybe a power roll for how many you get?

[hasty vine]

i think it adds complexity in a way i dont like nesc

[eager basin]

...could also change the effect to "start your turn or move inside", so it deals some immediete damage. But then it works differently to Enter the Beyond

[hasty vine]

you enter an area when its conjured

so you get immediate damage either way

i should use the canon precedent for damaging areas tbh

i could just make it start as a 2 cube or something

so rather than going 1->3->5 it goes 2->4->6
(and therefore 3->5->7 with bargain)

part of me likes the cuteness of starting in a 1x1 but cute doesnt make for good gameplay

...i could also make it a maneuver

since it doesnt use a power roll and is primarily a debuff tool

ok yeah this feels immediately correct

@eager basin i resolved it

[eager basin]

yeah that helps

[hasty vine]

ehehe

(this is the 5 fervour undying)

*target all enemies

[eager basin]

that will be devastating against minions

I'd specify if they do or don't get to immeditely join in to your turn (assuming they act on your turn like normal minions do)

[hasty vine]

thats the idea

as funny as the 13 corruption damage is i'm going to save that for another ability and nerf the damage a tad

i also think this is very cute

i might make it not free but it is funny to do it multiple times considering it costs 5

[eager basin]

charmed isn't currently a defined condition, were you thinking of using the charmed condition i suggested in #1300624097134379018 ?

[hasty vine]

no i have my own charmed condition

[eager basin]

ahhh

[hasty vine]

tho looking at your idea, double bane might be better

[eager basin]

your class, your decision

[hasty vine]

yep thats generally how that works

heartstopper might be too cute

and too close to censored

it is a subclass ability though rather than a base class one

actually i might make it a 7 bc then its different enough and i can change the damage numbers

wait no 7 abilities are permabuffs

hm

perhaps saved for higher level than that even

eh i'll leave it for now and see how it shakes

[eager basin]

not all 7 costs are permabuffs

see the Shadow, for example

[hasty vine]

oh excellent shout

just a lot of them

ehehehe

@eager basin do you think rejuvenation is too much sauce for a 5 cost

[eager basin]

I don't think so, if anything it might be a bit underpowered

Considering a maneuver on it's own is worth a recovery

and a point of HR is worth about a recovery

so a 5 cost maneuver has the budget to give 6 recoveries

compare to some of the conduit abilities, which give AoE recoveries

[hasty vine]

hm true

i could have it give temporary stamina at the start of each turn but i dunno

is this batshit

wait, the pull should happen when you make the roll

gimme a sec

yeah this is cleaner

[eager basin]

Maybe also make it effects save ends or potentecy effects?

[hasty vine]

oh i could see that, i went with this angle

[eager basin]

yeah seems good!

[hasty vine]

we're getting a little funky with it

this might be too much of a uhhh

trinket text to be worth it

but idk

[hasty vine]

this one i'm going to need someone else to do the numbers on

i like the idea a lot though

oh its meant to include knockback and stuff
i'll change it to " whenever a creature attacks you, uses a maneuver on you" but theres probably a better wording

ok

just need to do the 7 fervour features now!! i'm levels 1-2 complete!

i could leave it here theoretically since my player only needs level 1

[eager basin]

oooh I really like it damaging people who try to search for hidden creatures. That's a very fun design space

[hasty vine]

i thought so too

idk the correct wording but heres where it ended up

[eager basin]

I do think that creatures would almost always take the bane though.

even more so if it's dealing ⚡⚡⚡ damage

a surge and an edge are roughly comparable. I think an edge is worth a little more (especially with higher power abilities), but it's still closer to one than to two

[hasty vine]

i think that thats good and fine though

do you think at ⚡⚡ its doing enough to be worth 5

[eager basin]

I think so

[hasty vine]

keeping in mind punisher effects are always worse than you think

aight

[lethal elk]

So, fun idea that I might recommend. For Bargain - rather than making the stamina cost up front - what if instead you make it conditional AFTER combat; something like "You gain a benefit for the encounter. At the end, you take X damage....unless something else"

[hasty vine]

hm

wonder if i should move one of the two 2nd level features to 1st level

the noncombat one probably

i think i based it off the null so it might be fine

it would be a fourth thing at 1st level

eh fuck it we ball

[hasty vine]

excited for a player to get to test it in my campaign

[hasty vine]

first session: class seems great

self-congratulatory

i think i will shunt beckoning rift up to 7 and buff it though, i think it impacting 10 squares rather than 5 is a lot more impactful and dramatic

[hasty vine]

okay so, i did that, heres the current replacement ability

and i made rift within 10 so its more dramatically affecting a large swathe of the battlefield, which was the original intent

[eager basin]

yup, 10 squares range will do that

[hasty vine]

did some more number fuckery

in prep for the minor overhaul the december packet is going to bring

now letting bargain increase your potencies by 1, going to see how that works out in play or if thats too much sauce

i also shunted more abilities around

chiefly, growing corruption went down to 3 fervour, where i think it belongs, as it wants to happen early into a given combat

i swapped it with enter the beyond, which is now 5, but i am wondering if it conflicts too hard with the subclass specific aoes, but i figure you can pick one or the other, and enter the beyond making difficult terrain is pretty relevant

[lethal elk]

As I'm finally getting back to homebrewing, I'm spreading round the attention. Updates look really good!

[lethal elk]

Having missed earlier, I can't say, but so far I think the pact abilities look pretty solid. For the 7th level one, I see one is open, looking for any recommendations?

[hasty vine]

i’m not monetising it so you know what? sure

as long as you’re ok with me editing or reinterpreting it

[lethal elk]

Oh sure. I figure it's low hanging fruit anyways.

But, for 7th level ability, maybe something that creates a zone of darkness, feels thematic for all the Patrons on one form or another.

Maybe it does damage based on bargin type.

[hasty vine]

oh broad overview concepts like that i have already

plan is to have a couple more patron damage abilities in general

zones of darkness i’ve been considering considering, i think it ended up as growing corruption instead but i should reuse the idea yeah

[hasty vine]

its part of skeleton design for me i find it helps (thanks to my background in mtg design haha)

[lethal elk]

I mean devils love darkness, and I do love me some hungar of Hadar spells

Just to clarify btw, is the idea you get one signature auto from your pact? And then one open one?

[hasty vine]

yep

thats why theres a reduced number of choice ones akin to how melee classes have fewer because one is from kit

except i did 5 because i couldnt help myself

and also wither is deliberately a reuse from conduit

[lethal elk]

Actually that still comes out to 8 which is what casters have presently

[hasty vine]

yep but the balance’d shift with more subclasses, which i plan to do once we get the december packet and things are more locked for both higher level and mechanics in general

[lethal elk]

Same. I'm expecting shields to be gone, so adjusting defense options accordingly already

[hasty vine]

this might be utterly deranged

i removed the area damage (theres other aoes that can fill that niche at 5 essence) but now it's much more focused on being a mass difficult terrain creation

area denial

5 cube is very big though so idk

[lethal elk]

remember 4 cube is also a respectable size. Is this a 5 or 7 HR cost?

[hasty vine]

5, i'm also aware but im cautious because i also want circle of death to be of reasonable size

i think 5 cube might be correct

given the damage is low and its mostly for the difficult terrain

[lethal elk]

You could also potentially do ⚡ damage each round a creature enters or start their turn in it too?

[hasty vine]

that was the original version that i cut

because it was too similar to other abilities

[lethal elk]

Oooh, ok. My apologies then

yeah, 5 cube should probably be ok. I don't have the pdf available, but it should be ok I think. 'Maybe' adjust the damage a bit - but I wouldn't worry too much about damage balance, that's something we'll know better after next release.

[eager basin]

Why only difficult terrain until next turn?

Since you've cut the damage

[hasty vine]

a round of difficult terrain is still pretty solid

and the damage is only cut in the sense of literally being a smaller number, it has a wider aoe so the damage output is probably pretty similar

[eager basin]

both stronger, more useful tactically, and less mental overhead to just make it create difficult terrain (like how the earth elementalist does)

[hasty vine]

i thought it was using precedent

ill give it a looksie

oh it was old precedent

aight yeah changing that

and might make it smaller actually

[hasty vine]

Working on updating to current rules as we speak, currently level 1 is complete: expect to see the rest of the levels over the next couple weeks!

[hasty vine]

progress is ongoing: 1-3 are completed, and have now established the framework for 4+ 💪

just need to work on actually filling it out

[hasty vine]

i might be cooking too close to the sun

[lethal elk]

Ooh boy! Im very excited for your new version!

[hasty vine]

we're up to 5th level

i'm really unsure about curse here, i think it's neat but idk

i might change it to bane on their next strike

i want it to be a small boost a la practical magic to supplement the fact that as you get higher level you need to bargain less times in a combat

[hasty vine]

thanks! i am too 😄

[eager basin]

I absolutely LOVE the effect of Mind Piercer, feels totally in flavor for an eldritch patron. 11/10. I don't think the name and description quite fit it though. To me the flavor of it should be about being twisty, assulting the mind from unseen and unthinkable angles, senses that don't exist. "Pierce" implies a straight aproach, just punching through whatever defense or obstacle might be in the way.

[eager basin]

Should just be Weakened right? As worded currently it would stack with weakened, despite being the exact same effect. I think would be a bit strong, and also a bit confusing.

If you want it to be similar to practical magic (A not super strong maneuver, but still better than nothing), then I'd make it the next strike/power roll has a bane

[hasty vine]

thats what it is rn

[hasty vine]

i was having design block so i took a break to start designing the extra subclasses,

i'm really unsure which of these signatures to go with. the left is much more elegant looking but most signature actions don't impart conditions that aren't slowed. the middle is pretty elegant and might be what i go with but i'm unsure on it conceptually. the right is the least elegant but probably the most mechanically sound?

this is charmed for reference

(3 is meant to say save ends)

[lethal elk]

Oh, that reminds me, I also game up with a charmed condition, I have some extra language to prevent gimmicks, so let me know if this might be helpful?

[lethal elk]

common conditions for signature abilities are slowed, grabbed, and weakened; prone typically on T3 (though the stormwight has prone on all of the vulken's signatures). Teleport is neat, but I would say you'd want to add wording to make it horizontal only - otherwise it can be used to deal faling damage.

That said, thinking about it - if this is a ..."fey" themed class (presuming of course), what about this option:

Befuddlement
Power roll (insert text here)
Target: two creatures

Psychic damage and the targets swap places. Then maybe you can target allies, and they ignore damage. Just an idea

[hasty vine]

i'll consider but i was more asking about the versions i posted

[lethal elk]

That's fair. In that case, I think the second option is probably the best. You always get teleport, and charmed seems somewhat strong, so T3 only seems decent trade off.

I'm torn on the 3rd opiton, only because I don't know if there are any other signature abilities in the latest version that allow an upcast version by spending HR. That said, is that a common option for your Acolyte this time around? If the other subclasses also have an option to upcast, then I suspect that one might be best.

[hasty vine]

(the idea you posted is actually extremely similar to a 5 fervour ability i had for the subclass lol)

[hasty vine]

each subclass has a signature ability associated with it, and each has something you can spend bonus essence on

hm this might be a tad close to tentacle from the beyond

eh

[lethal elk]

Ah, ok. Then in that case, Option 3 works the best

Charm is pretty powerful I think in this system, so having it limited seems good. Teleport on the power roll is fine I think, as long as (as mentioned before), you limit the ability to teleport into the air.

[hasty vine]

oh wait with the huge damage buffs i need to change tentacle anyway

fixed

[lethal elk]

well, that, OR you take the falling damage you could get from a 2 or 3 square drop in the air into account. Though I think the ability is cooler if it forces people on the ground, as that way could could use it to ground a flying creature for your allies - more tactically useful

[eager basin]

I think charmed is analogous to taunted yes? Then first works, just change the effect to EoT instead. I’m a little more confused about the optional teleport though. Could you elaborate on why you thought that was needed?

[hasty vine]

wdym why i thought that was needed

the question is confusing to me, like asking why i added a feature
because a class needs features to do things

and it's neat

or do you mean the form of it being extra fervour for a bonus effect? i gave that to each of the signatures because i wanted each subclass to be able to do something meaningful and active, which means i couldn't attach it to a trigger etc, but signatures on their own can't do effects like inflicting frightened

for example i want the undying subclass to be able to inflict fear semi-frequently, but just attaching it to 5+ fervour abilities doesn't hit that beat, and i already have the mechanism of specific signatures

it's the same way i believe elementalists can spend bonus essence on triggered actions

[eager basin]

I see, so it’s class design. Makes sense. The reason I asked is because 90+% of signatures don’t have extra resource spends, and the ones that do tend to be pretty central to the theme or mechanics of the ability. Here, that didn’t seem the case, so I was wondering if there was some other reason you did it. Which there was!

[hasty vine]

that's bc none of the existing classes' signatures are based on subclasses, whereas the acolyte does have that

[lethal elk]

That's what I asked earlier, but in this case, it DOES seem central to the class. Makes sense. @hasty vine shall I presume the general signatures not tied to the patron do NOT have a fervor spend?

[hasty vine]

that is accurate

[eager basin]

I’d argue the elementalist all abilities are based on subclasses, due to the theming.

[hasty vine]

though also actually i think the troubadour does have signature abilities that they can spend drama to juice

[lethal elk]

They are, but the elementalist is sort of encouraged to dable in all elements, even if they have a specialization. The acolyte, in contrast, I think is very rooted in the theme of their patron. So it feels on theme that the patrons signature ability has some extra oomph

[lethal elk]

I thought I remembered one! So there is precedent too

[hasty vine]

yep, i was correct, they do have that

only for some but

i don't remember a lot of the troubadour stuff bc i'm not too hot on the class theming

[lethal elk]

whole book has only been out a week give or take - no shame in not having it all memorized yet 😅

[hasty vine]

who's ashamed 😎

[lethal elk]

Oh, just a thought too - but are you able to pin messages in this thread? Just noticed its a bit hard to scroll up to find the reference doc, might be good to have that on easy access

[hasty vine]

if i could i would

but i cant so i haven't

😔

[lethal elk]

I wonder if its because its in the opening post. Can you pin messages within? I see the pin icon so I was curious.

[hasty vine]

if you're on desktop there's also this

[lethal elk]

facepalm whelp didn't know that was there so that solves my problem then

🙏

Oh, one other question while I"m here. I see the boons option, but they sort of have a mishmash of the abilities from prayers or enchantments, but also some extra options. Is that there intention and/or do you also have an equivelant of wards?

[hasty vine]

boons are meant to be equivalent to wards, and then the bargain maneuver covers the statistical boosts granted by enchantments/prayers

unless im flipping those words

in which case that

yep, boons are meant to cover wards (broadly, it also includes the ability to use weapons which is normally an enchantment but)

[lethal elk]

Aah, yea - I see that now. Ok. So you get a much more flexible 'prayer' at the stamina cost

[hasty vine]

that's the idea, yep

rather than getting one boost you can get as many as you want, but it'll cost you

[lethal elk]

I caved on my end and let my conduits and elementalist just take a kit IF they sacrifice a ward. I think it balances out ok

[hasty vine]

see i just said if they pick the weapon ward they can pick a signature ability from kits

since thats really what most of the kit fantasy is from

at least to me

[lethal elk]

At first blush, that seems really elegant, but my desinger senses tell me that the kit bonuses are often better than the base prayer ones. So even if a conduit, say, didn't take a signature ability, its still MUCH better to take shining armor AND then have a conduit ward.

Or, are you saying, they dont' get the kit bonuses, and can use the ward to get a signature ability only?

[hasty vine]

they get the +3 bonus stam, the +1 damage bonus with weapon abilities, and a signature from a kit (except its numbers are reduced a la field arsenal if you don't have the right bonuses)

but anyway

more on the actual class lol

[lethal elk]

overall though, looks pretty cool. I had my own acolyte version boppin' around in my head and was debating working on one, but this one looks like it has all the things I wanted. If and until MCDM puts out an official version, I might already have a player who is interested. And for their imp familiar, they can take the perk 😛

Though, if you can come up with a feature that maybe gives the acolyte a more powerful familiar, I won't complain - that imp may want to shank someone

I might also ask - bargin is the class's core maneuver - however its really only designed to be used once per encounter. Any thought about adding some ability that you can use for free so you have an option each round. Otherwise, I wonder if the acolyte might have a lot of rounds where they don't have a manuever use.

[hasty vine]

in early levels, you can bargain multiple times

you just pick a different bonus each time

at 4th level, you get the curse maneuver to accommodate for that exact thing

because at 3rd you get HEAR ME! which means you need to bargain less to get the same amount of juice

i also deliberately included a 3 fervour maneuver ability, and at 2nd one of your options is (probably) a maneuver ability

[eager basin]

Kits are more valuable than ward. If they sacrifice both ward and blessing/enchantment then I think that's about right?

[lethal elk]

Yes, that's what I settled on. But, as mentioned - for another channel

[hasty vine]

i might reflavour this 6th level ability

(wording subject to change once i get back up to 6th level and am looking at the earth elementalist precedent in more depth)

[lethal elk]

Oh, no I mean I like that ability. I think the cool thing would be having some weaker version earlier, but I don't know where the space for that would be - maybe 4th level shurgs

[hasty vine]

i dont think a class specific perk bonus tracks to me - sounds like the job for a title

[lethal elk]

At the same time, I might instead just come up with a title that has a prereq of 'familiar perk' that gives it combat stats

[hasty vine]

ye

[lethal elk]

same thought at same time I see

[eager basin]

I'm not sure using a retainer of your level quite works. I think it would scale too hard, considering the cost remains the same

[hasty vine]

it seems roughly on par for one round but it lasting until end of encounter is too much yeah, i’ve not hit 6th level yet in terms of proper working though so dont read too hard into it

[lethal elk]

The elementalist source of earth has a statblock for a summons, so maybe instead of being a Retainer it's just a unique creature?

[hasty vine]

i mentioned that earlier and thats likely the solution

[eager basin]

I do kinda like the flavor of it being a retainer, in that you've dragged in some other dude contracted to your patron. It's not mystical beast of flame, it's Jeff from the Aggressive Accounting department

[hasty vine]

i think that's just generally true for the devils lol

aberrant acolytes summon strange betentacled monsters from beyond our ken, undying acolytes revive an enemy as an undead revenant under their control, and the devil acolytes get a subcontractor from their patron

[eager basin]

hmm, maybe give the subcontracting one a bit of pyramid scheme/mlm flavor? "By swearing your soul to a devil, you can then have other people swear to you, gaining a percentage of their.... etc.

no, that'd be a bit much to fit in flavor text

maybe for it's own ability though, more out of combat focused

[hasty vine]

this might be my most batshit formatting yet. but

[lethal elk]

Ok, so I think I missed something, but remind me again what the downsides of making it a retainer are? Im wondering because for one of my subclass options for a conduit I'm working on, I gave it the feature at 4th level to simply 'gain a retainer', and then source the statblock out to the MM. Would that be an option - "and so its not an ability" - or is the idea you can just 'summon' the creature'?

[hasty vine]

just granting a retainer is fine but summoning one as part of an ability is very good for an ability

[lethal elk]

gotcha, and I suspect you'd like to leave the option open for a hero to have a normal retainer AND a summons, whatever it may be?

[hasty vine]

exactly

[hasty vine]

@lethal elk @eager basin vibe check on the conceit? tbc their signature action is the signature action the subclass gets

i was wondering if that was neat or too cute and i should just give them cool unique things

actually this damage whould be way down

[hasty vine]

i think i like it actually

i can make them unique in other ways

[lethal elk]

Honestly, if you are using the same signature, I would just state that in the block, rather than duplicating the text. Simply "the subcontractor can use the signature ability granted by your patron"

[hasty vine]

it's not the same stats as yours though

its just conceptually similar

but it uses their numbers

[lethal elk]

True, but then you have the problem of it not scaling with the hero as they level up. so it'll always be 2d10+3?

[hasty vine]

is that a problem?

a lot of other abilities don't scale with level outside of a single damage point occasionally

and how draw steel is designed 2d10+3 will always be pretty solid

this isn't a retainer i'm designing, it's a class ability
and those tend to be static

originally i thought they should grow with you but i think that's too much juice for an ability

[lethal elk]

with respect, technically hero abilities scale with their characteristics. So players will roll between 2d10+2 and 2d10+5 over the course of their career

[hasty vine]

point taken

hm

yeah i think it's fine for now but i might revisit it later

i think my statblocks are pretty cute at least

including the names

i really like 'em

i might reduce the stamina based on the source of earth again

[lethal elk]

Yeah, they look pretty good. Its hard to match official style without their publishing software, but it'll do nicely

[hasty vine]

i meant mechanically but i'm also somewhat chuffed on the formatting yeah lol

[hasty vine]

this might be too much sauce at 4th but. it compels me

[lethal elk]

I like it. It might be a bit strong, in which case, I'd just keep the second sentance. What it really means is you can gain a surge whenever you use a T1 power, which kinda makes all T1 powers deal T2 damage over time

[hasty vine]

ok thats enough brainpower for the day

TO DO:
6th level's 9 fervour subclass abilities (x3)
8th levels subclass features (x3)
8th levels 11 fervour abilities (x4)
9th levels general feature(s) (x1-2)
9th levels 11 fervour subclass abilities (x6)

so ~22 things

[eager basin]

I like it, seems totally reasonable to me. Caustic Alchemy Shadow gets an extra surge on any surge attack at second level.

[lethal elk]

Mmm, that's a fair point, I suppose that's on parity then, maybe even a bit less.

[eager basin]

Maybe could give it the ability to boost potency with only one surge?

That’s a bit more power, but only in the situation where you want to land the effect.

[hasty vine]

thats sick but id save it for higher levels

in fact i might stick it at 7th or 8th rn

[lethal elk]

Perfect! That feels very on brand for acolytes

If you're open to a name recommendations, instead of Altered Form, would Maledict Form sound better?

[hasty vine]

eh, i like the progression i have for the fervour granting abilities

eternal fragment -> altered form -> eternal bargain -> sublime ascendance hits the beat i want of like

becoming more and more akin to your patron

[hasty vine]

it might sound better

i'll consider

[lethal elk]

totally fine if not, sometimes I have inspiration, so I hope its ok if I just throw it into the ether

[hasty vine]

i had a very fun christmas, but heres two abilities. id do more today but im so full of christmas dinner im going to sleep forever

[hasty vine]

i updated the to do list, 18 left to go

[eager basin]

for Banish to the Beyond, I know there is a similar ability and it does effect before power roll, witht he power roll being done when it returns

[hasty vine]

if you can cite a page number i might change it

[eager basin]

huh I guess I'm misremembering then. My apologies!

[hasty vine]

i keep going back and forth on if bargain should let you juice all your potencies by 1

i think the answer is no

[hasty vine]

after a session today, i'm seriously considering reverting bargain to just costing a recovery rather than dealing the damage

conceptually i like the idea of taking the damage then having to heal it off but in practice that's two maneuvers and that's really rough in a system that only does 3 rounds on average

[eager basin]

A recovery is also a much more significant cost

Also worth thinking about how it scales at higher levels, since the amount of health a recovery is worth climbs pretty steeply

[hasty vine]

yeah

hm

i could make bargaining free at the start of your turn when you regen resource a la praying but i'm really not a fan of that i think

tangentially related but i am considering the bargain raising your potencies by 1

and/or just revisting the concept of bargaining as a whole to boost different things and then giving the class a proper ward/boon thing, but i really like how elegant the current system is

not that that'll stop me overhauling it if it plays poor but

i could also basically double the power of the actual bargain payoff if i make it recoveries

thats a buff in a couple directions but it makes the maneuver more meaningful

1 extra damage on each attack is less noticable than 2

or it could even be as juicy as like, an edge on magic abilities or something silly

eh

[hasty vine]

hm.

this doesnt get around the issue of the bargain -> catch breath costing two maneuvers being very expensive though

[eager basin]

I'd avoid that just because guarenteed edges tends to wash out situational bonuses.

[hasty vine]

yeah thats why i decided against it

it also kinda encompasses boosting potencies and damage and forced movement all in one when i like them being distinct options

[eager basin]

Hmm, could make it so when you bargain you can also catch breath? Or have that be an upgrade the class gets?

or only if you are winded

[hasty vine]

i don't think that's the solution but i could give them an alternate way of getting recovery expenditure

i did design most of the class to be able to cover itself defensively with temp stamina and they have 2 extra recoveries tho so idk if that'll overdo it

tho i dont think the stamina loss is the issue so much as the action economy loss so maybe

[eager basin]

Or could let them spend an extra recovery when they catch breath

that'd be another action economy potential

but I kind of like it being tied to the bargain in some way. That you need to keep digging yourself a bit deeper to deal with the consequences of digging

[hasty vine]

hm

i think this is leaning towards just spending a recovery straight up though

which would be cleaner

[hasty vine]

the problem is i want people to bargain a couple times per combat, probably 1-2, and costing a recovery really hinders that since you only get 10

[hasty vine]

i could go the other route and make it so you lose way less stamina

like, 3 or something

or just 1d6

i dont hate that

that incidentally resolves the action economy issue by making it so you dont actually need to immediately catch breath after bargaining

[eager basin]

I don't think a fully flat damage works, with how stamina scales

I think either do something like equal to level/characteristic scale, or increase the dmage/benefits on Echelon up

[hasty vine]

it lets the feature become stronger as you level up by making the damage less meaningful

but idk the damage being meaningful is part of the conceit to me

[eager basin]

I'd rather increase both the benefit and damage

[hasty vine]

part of me is excited by the idea of juicing the bargain power though in general
using your maneuver to get +1 to all damage rolls isnt super dramatic, esp when other people get it for free

[hasty vine]

yeah im on that wavelength too

[eager basin]

I think you could probably do +2 damage

[hasty vine]

this is the pitch idea

damage: +2 is fine
distance: most abilities are 5 or 10: its the same as before for 5, and is way more for 10, super unsure on this change and might revert it to +5
area increase: works the same as before, i feel like i liked it and it might have been too strong before
potencies: i like the option since it's the debuff class and lets it get around super hard to debuff people, but im wondering if it might stack too hard with their other potency stuff. might be fine
forced movement: +1 to +2, seems fine

[eager basin]

I think +5 is better

especially since I think the bonuses should effectively get multiplied by Echelon (along with increased damage)

so a level 7 character would have +6 damage, +15 range, etc.

[hasty vine]

oh right that was another thing

the alternate idea was for your bargain to start with the smaller boosts and then get juiced at a higher level

i dont think i like the idea of multiplying it by echelon though, most of these abilities scale really well on their own

[eager basin]

fair enough

actually, have you thought about non-buff bargains?

Like a bargain to gain 3 surges, or cleans status effects

[hasty vine]

yes, i decided i didn't like it as a design conceit for what i was going for with the bargain
i think an alternate version of the acolyte might have a bargain that works more like that but i like it being short term pain for longer term power much as other features trade long term power for short term gain

[hasty vine]

trying to figure out how to word this ability or if it's even a good idea

part of me is leaning no

tbc this isnt the whole ability im just

contemplating

[hasty vine]

anyway im back on the new ability grind

i really like this one (9 fervour 6th level infernal)

[hasty vine]

i also reworked this one (5th level 9 fervour)

i still want any ally buffs the class has to focus on the idea of debuffing enemies as well so, this hits both beats i want rather than just one

this might be too much terrain manipulation though idk

[eager basin]

I'd look at the high level conduit ability that lets you visit your god. Can't post it here since it's patreon packet

[hasty vine]

oh shit i forgot that 💀 my ass was working off the null and fury

[hasty vine]

ok so

im also considering reworking at least the undying acolyte's triggered action, if not all of them

because rn its

this and its main power actually stems from teh potency reduction

but i think it should come from the temp stamina

so i'm considering making it go from 1->2->3x to 2->3->4x

and then the secondary idea is that the potency resist is really good too so either removing it or locking it behind fervour expenditure, and then maybe giving all the acolyte subclasses a fervour expenditure for their triggered action

but i kinda feel like the tiering up as you gain more fervour is meant to supersede that

like so

[eager basin]

I do think having nothing tht cares about the attack at base is probably a mistake?

The give shield triggered actions felt bad because it didn't matter how much damage the attack did, it was just a flat decrease in damage

This falls into that same case unless you've built up 4 fervour

[hasty vine]

i'd need to come up with ways for the triggered action to scale from just halving the damage
reducing the potency is one but i'd need another

that said, i think theres a conceptual difference between reducing incoming damage and getting temp hp each round

[eager basin]

Yes, but the main importance here is that it should matter when you use the triggered action. If it doesn't matter, you just always use it the first time you take damage, and that's not fun.

[hasty vine]

true

hm

[hasty vine]

reverting it back to the previous version where it always reduced potency base would fix that because it would make the potency thing the core of the feature

but also im unsure how much i like that bc id want it to scale with fervour too and reducing potencies by 2 is a Lot

but also also its 1/round and maybe the undead acolyte should be the potency master
acolytes are already about using their own potencies to maximal efficiency so

eh nah

im just gonna try the current version and see how it feels

actually im gonna shunt the potency reduction so its always there

yeah

[eager basin]

Seems good to me! Of course would need to test it to figure out how good it plays in practice

it might be that there needs to be some other effect in play for the table, if it still feels like it's missing something

[hasty vine]

tbh i like it

we'll see

[hasty vine]

it's my class i get to name the abilities

[hasty vine]

i also had a batshit idea for 8th level

...pretend that the confused has R<[stat]

[hasty vine]

idk if i can get this to work but i think it'll be rad if i do, but it is making more work for myself... i think you get two 8th level patron features. one is standard, and then one is basically a sub-subclass for your patron? might be a bit late to finally get to instantiate it in specific so maybe i crib the idea and move it down to like, 5th or something, but if i can do it i think it'll be rad

its just one feature so not really a full sub-subclass but

the only problem is figuring out what the differences between the demons would be since each demon is boutique, but maybe that means i just get to make 2-3 dope ideas and it doesnt matter which they pick

but actually i dont have to worry about that bc i only need to do the first three for now

[hasty vine]

i was inspired

[hasty vine]

gonna do aberrant at a later date i did as much as i was inspired to do

i might change styxian tongue since i suspect all infernal acolytes are gonna get some kinda boost to interpersonals. but actually probably they should be the best at it so

[hasty vine]

TO DO:
8th levels subclass features (x6) [scope crept to shit]
8th levels 11 fervour abilities (x4)
9th levels general feature(s) (x1)
9th levels 11 fervour subclass abilities (x6)

So ~17 things left to do

[eager basin]

I like the sub-sub-classes

it's a bunch of work, but the flavor is

[hasty vine]

i might add a lil smth to the Synlirii Brain Drain

i think i finally figured out that 6th level noncombat

[hasty vine]

im gonna finish these features so help me god

bam

i did everything i set out to do and a bonus 6th level one

TO DO:
8th levels 11 fervour abilities (x4)
9th levels general feature (x1)
9th levels 11 fervour subclass abilities (x6)

So ~11 things left to do

also so far i have just some monster statblock extracts in the 11 fervour subclass abilities lol
i really do feel like you should just be able to do lich / voiceless talker / archdevil shit at 9th

with this the entire acolyte advancement table is complete, i just have to do the 11 fervour abilities 😩

[hasty vine]

i also did two 11 fervour abilities. just as a showcase of my power

im done for the night tho

8 things remain

oh i made shatter a target ill change the damage

hm pain unending being choice based might actually be a better gimmick for infernal

giving infernal acolytes the prisoners dilemma is a bad idea

7 to go

i might move the effect of psyche shatter to a general 11 fervour ability actually

[hasty vine]

nvm i had some sick as fuck ideas

5 to go

[hasty vine]

im gonna move eternal damnation (with a diff name) to be generic acolyte and make it aura 10

and not fire

[hasty vine]

so ironically i completed the patron abilities for 11 fervour but then realised two of them would be way sicker as general 11 fervour abilities so i shunted them over

[hasty vine]

@eager basin @lethal elk class v1 is finished 😄

[lethal elk]

I see we're both on a similar time schedule 😛

[hasty vine]

wait did you literally just post the next magewright version

that's so funny

i'll read yours if you read mine lol

i will say, i am extremely tempted to change the duration of doomed to (forever)

i am wondering if i should make a new DS homebrew post for this since a lot of other people have for their updated classes

it's just i've just been uh. actively using this one

[eager basin]

"You are not safe". I love it. Might want to specify after a respite though, since technically speaking you can't respite in an unsafe location.

[eager basin]

shouldn't a nerve attack target reason, not might?

[hasty vine]

the might represents your ability to shrug off experiencing a lot of pain at once

in a constitution-esque way

[eager basin]

for Eternal Damnation "Damn both the high and the low alike"

[eager basin]

for Rise and Serve, I might make it reduce maximum recoveries, which replenishes on respite (possibly only a few per respite). That way it hurts to spam it, and has lingering downsides.

[hasty vine]

what do you mean by hurting to spam it

is this instead of it not letting you rez the same person multiple times

also are you reading through the screenshots or the actual doc

bc the screenshots are probably out of date

those are from while i was still working on stuff

[eager basin]

Like currently, if a hero is under 2/3 health, it's better to kill and then ressurect them for the free recoveries

and you can use it once outside of combat

and yes, reading through screenshots

[hasty vine]

only if you have 11 victories and at that point i think go nuts

[eager basin]

no they changed out of combat ability use works

[hasty vine]

i think killing your own teammate is such a horrendous tactical move that its fine tbh

oh right fuck

its just 1/victory now

[eager basin]

yup

and I like that the class is good at ressurection

makes sense

but I think it should have a cost beyond the immediate.

[hasty vine]

i actually think

since i'm explicitly running for an undying warlock

and them levelling up that far may take a year

but it'll be best for me to close issues as they come up

because i dont know how much i like it permanently reducing stuff

its meant to be like uhh

revivify more than a full resurrect

[eager basin]

not permenantly

[hasty vine]

semi-permanently

until respite

w/e

[eager basin]

yeah

[hasty vine]

my brain is bad wording rn bc im cold

[hasty vine]

its never correct to kill your own ally
the correct move is to wait for them to lose that 2/3rds health and then die and then resurrect them

which i think is fine

its the same total stamina

[eager basin]

it's very common to be under 2/3 health at the end of a fight. Especially at higher levels.

[hasty vine]

ohhhhhhh

you mean specifically post-combat

[eager basin]

yeah

[hasty vine]

ok yeah good point

hm

i will contemplate

[eager basin]

the main gimmick I'm trying to avoid is the recovery generation

since it gives 2 free recoveries

[hasty vine]

i broadly agree but talent has it at 11 clarity

so clearly at least the designers think its ok at super high resource amount

[eager basin]

and I think that will also be an issue lol

[hasty vine]

and if/when it is i'll change to mirror

eh ok. here you go

[eager basin]

Yup, that fixes it

for level 10: Ardor is worth WAY more than 1d6 stamina

[hasty vine]

yeah im iffy on that

it was different when bargian was different but then it changed and i didnt really update ardor

idk what the correct rate would be though

1 ardor = 1 buff for 1 encounter felt ok to me

[eager basin]

maybe 1 ardor for using bargain as a free maneuver?

possibly also ignoring the damage, not sure

[hasty vine]

thats a higher level ability already

9th level eternal bargain

[eager basin]

oh interesting. That's just once at the start of combat though. Hmm.

[hasty vine]

you only need to do it once at the start of a combat encounter once you hit levelll

i think 6

where you can choose any number of the benefits and take 1d6 for each

the only reason youd bargain multiple times previously is bc you have to spend multiple maneuvers to get access to multiple

[hasty vine]

yeah it's WITNESS ME! at 6th

[hasty vine]

this is, btw, why you get an alternate maneuver at 4th level

because bargain becomes less useful over time in an encounter

i am still wondering if i should add it so you get a second patron ability at 5th that buffs your curse to inflict stat<weak a condition associated with the patron

probably not gonna for now though

[eager basin]

infernal patron says it gives Infernal Glibness, but then the benefit is listed as Forked Tongue

[hasty vine]

oh right i stole that name for a higher level feature

good catch

ty

[eager basin]

so level 3 lets you take 2, level 6 lets you take any amount

and gives a discount on the damage

since it's just the d6, not the level.

[hasty vine]

yep

[eager basin]

I think spending one Ardor to ignore all damage from a bargain is probably fine?

[hasty vine]

hm

[eager basin]

...might be worth 2

[hasty vine]

ardor is a respite resource

[eager basin]

2 to be safe

[hasty vine]

so i think youre right actually

since you only get the benefit for one encounter

[eager basin]

between combat and non-combat stuff, I think a party gets around 2 victories per combat

the main spend will still be using it as HR or to get every tier

[hasty vine]

i kinda like there being one thing that costs 1 and one thing that costs 3 though

it works like fury's primordial power

but it might be safer at 2

that said

i think i might just say fuck it we ball and make it ignore all of the damage

eh

nah i'll see how it shakes

[hasty vine]

the way im conceptualising it is that like, for example, the null's Order can be spent at the start with 1 = expanding null aura by 1

and any given bargain ability is kinda in that ballpark

and any given bargain ability is 1d6 stamina past the first

so i think 1 for now is how i'll try it out

oh yeah

so i literally just with this final patch gave the acolyte a second way of gaining resource off-turn

The first time in a round a creature within 10 of you is reduced to 0 stamina, you gain 1 fervour. The first time in a round an enemy within 10 of you suffers the effect of a potency, you gain 1 fervour.

specifically the potency bit

[eager basin]

I mean, I think just 1d6 for the extra bargain is way too cheap personally

[hasty vine]

thats something that'll shake out in testing pretty easily

[eager basin]

or rather, it's very strong, but it's potentially balanced if thats where the power of the class is.

[hasty vine]

its kinda what you get instead of stuff like the elementalist getting a perma aura and stuff so

yeah

[hasty vine]

im still

really iffy on how much resource a given class should gain

given how differently each class does it, elementalists getting only one off-turn condition compared to others, fury getting a one-off instance of 1d3 etc etc

[eager basin]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of those changed too.

[hasty vine]

yeah

for now i'm just going to be taking the lead of the tactician, since as the acolyte has no unique resource fuckery (its fuckery is in other places), it's the easiest comparison

so i'm just going to broadly try match its numbers

actually the null is an even better comparison

[eager basin]

sie a table nce they ahvyeha

[hasty vine]

since it has a mastery table too

so true

[eager basin]

lmao

[hasty vine]

as fucked as it is i did understand what you said

and yeah thats why

[lethal elk]

@hasty vine Do you want comments in here, on document, or somewhere else?

[hasty vine]

options 1 and 2 both work

2 is probably preferable

[lethal elk]

Just got to this point. Agreed - well said with so little

[lethal elk]

Ok, did a pass on it. Didn't get everything, but burned out for now, and got some other chores to take care of. Looks pretty cool overall though 👍

I know others are looking it over too, so I'm not too worried about being super thorough, I"m sure you'll also find a bunch of things; I tend to after I go public.

[hasty vine]

much appreciated!

[hasty vine]

ok so

i did a small chunk more work on the bonus subclasses but i dont think i'm going to do much more

i think the one i feel strongest and most inspired to do is easily the whimsy aka the fey one, but we don't really have enough examples of draw steel fey for me to draw on so

i did come up with the 8th level subsubclass categories for each though. i may have gotten carried away and will probably pick 3 from the radiant host

or i just dispense the formality and call the celestial ones 'the tanky one' 'the sneaky one' 'the damagey one'

i do really like the names of the categories though

Infernal Allegiance (to a city of hell)
Undying Manifestation
Aberrant Mark
Whimsical Benefactor
Ruinous Overlord
Terrific Brood
Radiant Host

they all feel suitably associated with the type of patron they are to me

[hasty vine]

i am still contemplating whether the 4th level bonus resource gen should boost the condition affliction or the stuff dying

thematically potency makes the most sense but for gameplay i think it might actually make more sense to proc off stuff dying bc theres no guarantee a potency can be hit in a combat but somethings definitely hitting 0

[lethal elk]

Yeah, its an interesting diliema because creatures dying is a lot more certain, but also heavily dependant on the encounter: a fight with a bunch of minions; LOTS of fervor - fighting against a solo....nothing.

[hasty vine]

it counts any creature

in a fight against a solo it's more likely that any given one of your allies drops to 0 which also counts

[lethal elk]

https://tenor.com/view/ironic-star-wars-chode-gif-5274592

[hasty vine]

its more than im trying to figure which gets the +1 boost to be gen 1 to gen 2 fervour

[lethal elk]

I would go the potency - that way when you DO get the potency boost, you get more for your money; since creatures dying is encounter dependant

[hasty vine]

true

also with that change part of me wants to move seek vulnerability way lower in the levels

that said, the earliest it can appear is probably 5 since you get curse at 4

[lethal elk]

Any reason you can't combine it WITH curse?

[hasty vine]

like id love to replace hexbinder with it but getting curse and then adding on to curse feels wei- yeah

i wonder if folding it into curse and moving hexbinder up to 6 would be the play

[lethal elk]

Honestly, I think you can get away with just giving the 'see charateristics' feature with the bane. By itself, its got only minimal utility; as players eventually learn a monster's stats after a couple potency gate attacks anyways - so really the feature gives you just a round or 2 advantage

[hasty vine]

if i fold it into curse part of me is tempted thematically to just make it reveal their lowest characteristics but i also feel like thats turning a ribbon into a nothing

[lethal elk]

what about highest and lowest?

[hasty vine]

eh at that point just reveal them all

[hasty vine]

also i dont want to forcibly encourage using curse early

its meant to be a small side utility thing like

practical magic

so maybe i just disentangle it from curse in its entirety

[lethal elk]

What if it just has the director tells the hero what chararistics are below your strong potency? it doesn't say by how much, just "Its weak to this"

[hasty vine]

thats where i was leaning

[lethal elk]

So, if monster has M3 A2 R1, and youre strong potency is 3, director says "its supseptable to Agility and Reason"

[hasty vine]

either something like that with it being binary or a one shot instance of learning a creatures stats

[lethal elk]

Yeah. I think you can get away of giving that feature with the bane. Perhaps also you could make it where the hero learns ONE stat of their choice, and can repeat while cursed as a maneuver to learn another stat?

So, curse, I want to know its "REASON". then turn 2, maneuver "now tell me its MIGHT"

[hasty vine]

this is leaning me towards making bargain a side thing and making curse a judgement/mark-alike but thats a full rework and i'm still unsure if itd be better

[lethal elk]

🤔 honestly, reworking bargin to work like judgement/mark isn't a terrible idea. I could see something like it costs fervor OR stamina? That's a seperate convo.

[hasty vine]

im not super interested in attaching it to costing fervour but sticking it somewhere else on the action economy could be real

like maybe its just a thing that happens when the encounter starts

[lethal elk]

You'll never know without some trial and error. If you have the time, doing a parallel copy to mock up, and then A/B testing can be useful - if you're willing to do that of course

[hasty vine]

that's literally what im doing right now

3 steps ahead lol

[lethal elk]

🤣

sounds about right. "Version 1. Version 1.1", "Version 1.12"

[hasty vine]

the first tab is this discord channel its just cropped

[hasty vine]

yeah

i was concerned about

having both a scaling table and a judgement alike being too much

they fill the same sort of role wrt being a HR sink

[lethal elk]

Oooh, yeah I see what you mean now. Yeah each has a different feel. 🤔

[hasty vine]

i suspect itll be mechanically more like judgement (about fucking with the enemy) but will occupy more of a tactician adjacent niche (i.e. there arent abilities that impact "a cursed target" like censor and judged)

[lethal elk]

yeah, no way to guess without something more concrete to see

[hasty vine]

i really like the scaling table and between the two id have to keep it but im doing a mock up just to see

but like

they go in the same space on a character sheet

which is what's concerning me

double that said, theres no rule saying that the curse has to be a fundamental warping part of the class

it can just be a Thing

[hasty vine]

it'd be something like this

ftr the curse ate the bargains ability to increase your potencies since you can do that via curse now

that said, i still think this might eat too much into the space of the aspects

and i really do like the aspects

like i can probably just split the features out so as you level up they become passives, and make it so instead of scaling linearly your triggered actions have an extra fervour cost to boost them

[lethal elk]

Yeah, looking at the curse in that format - it 'works' but it feels a little too close to the Judgement

[hasty vine]

but i really really like the ludonarrative of becoming more like your patron as you gain more and more fervour

rather than simply levelling up

yeah

i think the solution is to remove the 7th level ability, and then add an ability somewhere which is just "You can tell which stats a creature has that are P<strong" or something

and i think it goes to 6th?

mark is a ribbon and witness me is very useful but also circumstantial

yeah

hm

p'haps a tad deranged. however it compels me

[eager basin]

why is it specifically strike, and not ability?
edit: already outdated lol

[eager basin]

hmm, would it be worth it to potentially have one of the effects checking P > weak instead?

I also think the updated curse is pretty weak, since the maneuver does nothing on it's own.

[hasty vine]

thats not the updated curse it was an abandoned alt idea

[hasty vine]

strike = 1 person
not power roll = potentially many people

the bane from judgement is per instance of 1 person, which is fine since it doesnt affect the entire roll

wording it so that “They get a bane on their next power roll against one of the targets of your choice” is a bit scuffed

[hasty vine]

that does make sense
my thought process was stopping you targetting a star you cant succeed with but it should be about targetting weaknesses u right

[eager basin]

Strikes and areas abilities generally are balanced, given the same cost (be that in heroic resources, or power of the montser). Damage makes sense to restrict to strikes, since it scales hugely on area abilities. But edge/bane is just on the dice roll, and the dice roll is the same for both strikes and area abilities.

[hasty vine]

good point! easily fixed

[hasty vine]

part of me does wonder if p < weak is going to make the fervour to learn stats p obsolete

i think im going to tie it all into a free maneuver regardless since starting the combat and immediately asking for 5 sets of stats sucks

yeah actually i dont think i like them learning all of the characteristics

the latter half feels less like an acolyte thing and more like, a ranger or something

bam

i like this

[hasty vine]

...im fucking stupid dawg

i forgot that P had meaning for some reason

it's just meant to be < weak

there we go

i used X for visual clarity since having nothing there didnt make it look like a potency

[hasty vine]

on an unrelated note i had a burst of inspiration

obv some stuff ain't done but how deranged are each of these so far, ruin and terror esp

[eager basin]

Fey step is very weak.

[lethal elk]

Yeah, you can probably get away with also adding the shadow Ability to hide after the teleport

[hasty vine]

sick i can boost the distances

[hasty vine]

i considered but i think id rather bump the distance

actually that said going invisible is cooler

[eager basin]

ooooh being invisible for their turn is great

just a "yeah, imma step out for this turn be back after"

[hasty vine]

do i make it until start of your next turn or start of the next round

wait.

is this anything @eager basin

(3/5/7 teleports)

you get to blank one enemy initiative turn

[eager basin]

I'd say end of the turn instead of start of the next turn, just because I think the effect is easier to understand. "start to end" primes the brain to understand around the one thing, while "start to start" gives the implication of a longer cycle.

[hasty vine]

yeah

[eager basin]

might have to make it "invisible and hidden", since the current invisible effects are just concealment RAW.

...would also have a niche use of still allowing you to hide behind cover or mundane concealment if there something that can see through invisibility.

[lethal elk]

End of next turn would allow the acolyte to hide during their turn alternatively

[hasty vine]

yeah thats intended

but maybe

[eager basin]

Do you mean "end of your next turn"? Because that means you just use it as soon as the next monster goes, to have stealth for a round.

[lethal elk]

I did, but in that case, I would say that you would JUST be invisible (bane), not hidden, and then you can try to hide on YOUR turn. That puts it on par with something like the talent ward

[eager basin]

ok, then you use it right away to have a bane for the entire round. I still find it not the best design. The talent ward is a ward, which is designed to be automatic and relatively low bandwidth. This is for a triggered action, which is your main off-turn interaction.

[lethal elk]

Mmm, yeah - I see what you mean - that's a fair point.

That said, if it autohid you, you'd still want to use it ASAP so you can't be targeted until your turn.

[eager basin]

When the invisibility faded, if you weren't in cover/concealment, you'd no longer be hidden. But you are right it might need to specifically un-hide after the invisibility ends

that's something that might need playtesting to figure out how strong it would be to use existing cover/concealment

[hasty vine]

the way i see it is comparable to the conduit "inflict a bane on an attack" triggered action, except it only works on you and you have to pre-call it so you also get to teleport a bit

[eager basin]

the thing that makes the conduit strong is both A) you can use it on ANY attack, especially on allies and B) you can choose to use it after seeing the result, meaning you only use it when it has an impact.

I think you can do more than just a teleport

[hasty vine]

we'll see

[hasty vine]

man

i'm really proud of the acolyte

i feel like it's basically in a finalised state if not super duper close to it

[hasty vine]

hm
still contemplating the bargain design

i think its fine for now but

[hasty vine]

thinking about this again

if curse went down to 1st level as the standard maneuver and bargain became a free triggered, that might work out 🤔
curse as in the current version not the mark/judgement

part of me wants to make it a one time start of combat thing but i suspect that is a little cringe

alternatively it becomes an on-demand thing, where you pay life to juice an ability in specific

idk

eh meh

theres interesting space here to me but

the alternative answer might to be to juice the effects further to make it more worth but

that's kinda icky

idk it might be that this should be how it works by default

actually tbh i think bumping the numbers might be the actual solution

make it more meaningful if you literally just bargain for one ability, and make it upside if you use the juice more

yeah

i think i overestimated how many rounds a draw steel combat goes so i think what i should aim for is "this should be meaningful even if it's only benefitting the single turn you use it"

[hasty vine]

i think i might go with this for now, though the area increase of +2 might end up getting bonked back down

i want them all to feel impactful early if you spend a maneuver on them

[eager basin]

Yeah, I think area +2 is the strongest there for sure

Worth seeing how it plays in practice though imo

[hasty vine]

update: just had a player play an infernal acolyte this session and use the area +2, and i think it's solid and great!

not upping the flat output but rather the potential output limits it but still lets it do cool stuff

such as make a 7 cube of hellfire for the rest of the encounter :p

[hasty vine]

the more time passes and the more i run for my acolyte(s) the more unreasonably happy i am with how its shaped out

i think the numbers on the bargain feel correct now
+2 area is a LOT but it feels really dramatic and actually worth the bargain cost now
plus i've got them constantly being like "oo i want to bargain. but i shouldn't i don't have the stamina... but what if i did..." and thats exactly the vibe

[eager basin]

Love to hear it!

[hasty vine]

decided to continue working on the Whimsy (though i'll probably update it more as/when the fairy summoner drops)

i just want to show that i'm cooking out my fucking mind though (this is 9 fervour)

im not sold on the name but i love the Whimsy doing shit like interrupting malice

[hasty vine]

i think i'm good to call the base class complete

i might futz with specific abilities, especially when the fully rebalanced pdf drops

[hasty vine]

bargain's numbers at +2 rolled damage and +3 forced movement is working great

the damage boost definitely favours AoEs but i've found that since the class' strikes tend to focus on debuffing they get greater impact from the potency increase anyway which evens everything out pretty cleanly

[eager basin]

That’s interesting. In my experience I’ve found one point of forced movement to be worth around 1.5ish damage. More than one, less than two.

Although I guess not every ability has forced movement, don’t applies less often?

[hasty vine]

forced movement tends to be single target whereas +2 rolled damage boosts aoes

so it gets a multiplier

plus forced movement damage is for sure great but its also situational since an enemy isnt always somewhere you can smack 'em into a wall

[hasty vine]

hm. as a 5 fervour ability this was unusably bad but now i think it might be too much sauce

i also dont nesc want to replicate the actual devilish charm but maybe i should

(though obv not forcing a presence test)

[hasty vine]

update changelog: rejigged a bunch of the signature actions

specific changelog:

• BIG: Bargain's forced movement increase now applies to your knockback maneuver.
  • This should add greater utility to the forced movement increase as an actual consideration, as right now there isn't a lot of inherent forced movement in the class.
  • This is a fun buff to Aberrant Acolytes too, who get to knockback with their Presence already.
• From Pain, Power range increased from 5 to 10.
• Flash from Beyond reduced from 3 cube to 2 cube. Push 1 added to all three tiers and damage reduced by 1 to compensate.
  • This should hopefully align it with its new goal of being a flexible signature action for if you intend to be bargain-heavy as it benefits on many axes.
• Bone Burst loses its forced movement in exchange for a damage buff and the ability to knock targets prone on a tier 3 result.
• Drain Vitality increased temp stamina gain from 2x presence to 3x presence when killing a target.

statement of future intent: i think i'm going to rework growing corruption (3 fervour) and/or encroaching darkness (9 fervour), potentially even combining them conceptually. i think Hungering Rift and Enter the Beyond are excellent area denial abilities but the passivity of these two is really not doing it for me. Entirely possible I even shunt down the Wall of Bones from 11 fervour to 9 to replace it.

[hasty vine]

i do also continue to wonder if i should just remove the forced movement increase, however

actually i might pull the ripcord on that

eh. we'll see

[hasty vine]

yeah i think im going to do the wall of bones shunt

i want to make one of the undying 11 fervour abilities deal damage/conditions anyway

i might move back pain unending to undying 11 and figure out a new general 11 fervour ability

[hasty vine]

how fucked is this for dealing damage as a 3 fervour maneuver

i also moved wall of bones down to a 9 fervour ability everyone can use (since i stole the darkness ability for growing corruption because it was ass)

i think im going to move pain unending back to undying

this is the new 11 fervour general acolyte ability for now

i came up with a cool rider

should probably be twice

[wise falcon]

Haven't really read this, just gotta note that the font is making it really hard to read for me.

[eager basin]

pretty fucked lol

I think if it was just the concealment and weaken, it would be fair, maybe a little on the weaker side. Adding in both the exapansion and damage is a lot.

I think the cut the damage and it's in a good spot

[hasty vine]

ok good thats exactly what i wanted to do but was worried to do

[hasty vine]

i'm extremely happy with where the class is at

i think the next thing i want to do is to hammer playtesting on the game feel of your patron aspect defensive features coming and going with your fervour expenditure, since the canon examples (null and fury) both lean offensively and i seem to remember there being a reason for that wrt the fury

that said i asked my acolyte player about it and he felt happy with it so

i do think its very hard to manifest the fantasy of 'you slowly become more like your patron' without leaning defensive

so the change would probably be the mechanism of scaling, i.e. rather than checking current fervour, checking max fervour had in a combat, or checking how much fervour you've expended in a given combat etc

thats only if it shapes out to actually be an issue though

[hasty vine]

feel very happy with these changes, just want to see how bargain boosting knockback feels and if that should be reverted

[hasty vine]

honestly the back and forth nature of it kinda doesnt hit that beat to me anyway
i dont know if i could get away with asking people to track how much fervour you've expended though. maybe

reminds me of the 5e sorcerer playtest

also for a bunch of them the higher level features involve gaining flight and losing flight mid-flying fucking sucks

idk. does it sound cooler to track how much you've spent and to gain more benefits based on that, or to track the maximum amount you've stockpiled at a time and base it on that
one wants you to push/pull between getting more defense benefits vs doing more offensive stuff, whereas the other is pushing you to do a thing you already want to do (spend a lot of fervour)

hm. the more i think about it the more i'm leaning towards checking maximums

who was it i talked with about this for their class

[wise falcon]

Out of curiousity, how much playtesting did you go through with this class?

[eager basin]

I’d be interested in participating in some playtests of this

[wise falcon]

We could def run some together with @verbal prawn. Maybe alongside the Gunslinger 🙂

[hasty vine]

i run a campaign for an undying acolyte (whom i originally made the class for) and i did an extended series of playtests for an infernal acolyte

i havent done high level testing but tbh im not as worried about that as getting fundamentals clean

[wise falcon]

Very fair

[wise falcon]

Cool. If you want to set up a playtest for the Aberrant, let us know. I think we could even do tomorrow.

[hasty vine]

tomorrow might be a bit of a quick turn-around but i could do something next week if i can grab enough people

[wise falcon]

There's already 4 of us.
You, me, @verbal prawn and @eager basin

No need to fetch anyone else

Just gotta make sure the other folks can. @verbal prawn usually directs

[hasty vine]

i'd want to run for 5

oh if exocist is directing

ok

[wise falcon]

I can run 2 PCs, Exo can do monsters plus 1 PC

[hasty vine]

🤔

i can do tomorrow

[wise falcon]

Shall we try to see if we can schedule for tomorrow?

Ill invite you to our server

Just accept my friend request

[hasty vine]

we love redoing all the bolding on the entire doc in the name of accessibility 🫡

[wise falcon]

Lol sorry mate

[hasty vine]

im a big accessibility head dont apologise

i just complain about all things

[hasty vine]

sooo much useful stuff out that playtest

excited for next week

i still feel great on the bargain numbers

got some help tweaking some specific ability numbers

also trying it so you don't lose your patron aspect once you unlock a tier now (i.e. once you have 4 fervour at a time, you have the 2 and 4 benefits for the rest of the encounter)

i think with the defensive benefits and the fact they're less universally applicable than the fury or nulls that it's cool

i want to play around with the thresholds for that (like maybe bumping them all by 1-2 flat) but we'll see

i do genuinely think we're nearing the completion of the class
basically i want to test out the aspect scaling numbers with the fact that they stick around even once you dip back under but once i dial those in... that's kinda it
until we get to way higher levels
i feel really really good about the class right now

i cant wait for the inevitable creation of the mcdm acolyte that makes me cry

[hasty vine]

i should crowdfund 3k off this once i finish

[wise falcon]

Lol that is kind of inevitable isn't it?

[hasty vine]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

i will simply have to be so popular before then that they just pay me to include the design in a book 🙂

[wise falcon]

Sounds like a plan

[hasty vine]

loved how this seems to play after one session

big fan

i honestly might keep the numbers as just scaling evens as well

[wise falcon]

The way this works with similar abilities is that the effect remains until the end of the turn where you use your HR.

[hasty vine]

i know

[hasty vine]

iconic acolyte concept locked in

based on the infernal acolyte i've ran for

[eager basin]

noice