#Axiom [Class, WIP] - a beefy psionic controller/support that uses the environment as a weapon

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leaden coral
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PDF inside. If you've played Tactical Breach Wizards, this is heavily inspired by Dall.

Dall.PNG
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Might end up writing some kits for it, not sure yet. The heroic abilities are just brainstorms right now, they don't have costs set.

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All the numbers need tweaking, but ideally the abilities should deal low damage and you make up the difference with forced movement. I want to take advantage of the fact that Draw Steel commits to grid-based combat by making this class very focused on positioning and movement

wild kernel
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For Gravity, I think it should allow you to ignore stability, rather than just the +1 force move

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Keeps it unique from accerationist

leaden coral
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Accelerationist only applies to you and allies, but yes maybe

wild kernel
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oh I had missed that bit

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ok yeah that makes more sense as a distinction then

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I feel like one of the subclasses (or maybe the class as a whole?) should really lean into force pulling people into you

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like, I'd love if Break Upon Me you had immunity to the force move impacts

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(Break Upon Me is an epic name btw)

leaden coral
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You can always cut your own impact damage with Aura of Inertia. But yeah maybe as another signature ability, instead of a reach bonus its an auto pull of maybe 2 squares and then an attack (or if they're already adjacent, just bonus damage from the impact)

wild kernel
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Mental Block should probably be a maneuver

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most none-damage heroics are

leaden coral
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I'm being careful with that one since afaik there are only two wall effects in the game right now

wild kernel
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Nail to the Firmament is also amazing epic name

wild kernel
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Luckily with walls it's pretty easy to tweak the power level by increasing/decreasing the size of the wall by 1.

leaden coral
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Well sure, its probably going to be one of the 5-magnitude ones, but I also think an on-demand wall is really strong for this class specifically. With that and Pillar of Truth you can potentially completely trap a size 1 enemy.

Still it might become a maneuver once I get a better idea of how it feels in play

wild kernel
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It won't be completely trapping, since they can always climb out.

leaden coral
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I'm still not completely clear on how height is supposed to work in this game, and how much of an obstacle a 1-square high wall is. If you're supposed to stack the wall pieces so that most of it is 2 squares tall then I think it can definitely be a maneuver

wild kernel
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It's very useful against ranged enemies, since you can get cover or potentially completely break LoS with them

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I try to make interesting tacticial maps, and players have done cool things with making walls then hiding behind them so the highground archers can't shoot at them

leaden coral
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That makes sense, but then why are both the existing wall effects only 5, and not 6? You'd have a little extra bit sticking off. Whatever

wild kernel
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I strongly suspect they will buff wall height though, so I'm mentally considering them height 2 for balance discussion

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as in not being a liability against melee enemies.

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Anyway, I'm in love with your abilities. 10/10 flavor, very interesting effects

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I think you might be loading a bit too much onto the core class, and the traits you get at level 1 though

leaden coral
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Yeah, I think Transfer Charge, Pillar of Truth, and Astral Interchange are taking up a lot of the budget, but I consider them all fairly important. But I'm also still looking at the other classes and trying to figure out how much its ok to give at level 1.

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Astral Interchange might need to get moved to level 2?

wild kernel
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Pillar of Truth I think can be something you get at higher levels. It's synergistic, but it's not required for the class, if that makes sense?

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Astral Interchange I agree also could be on a higher level

leaden coral
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maybe, but its so fun (pillar i mean). I love abilities like that. There's the obvious use case of slamming enemies into it but its also instant high ground, blocks off doors, provides cover etc.

wild kernel
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very true

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I like transfer charge, but I feel like it almost want to be a triggered action instead?

leaden coral
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how so?

wild kernel
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I mean I get that it's an alternate charge effect

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but I could see it working off of anyone moving

leaden coral
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I worry it would then be a little clunky, and also clash with Take Up the Burden (which I'm also not sure about it giving Magnitude, that's a little out of line with the other classes)

wild kernel
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Hmm, I'm wondering if there is a better way to handle "Take up Their Burden", that ties into the movement. I'm assuming that tanking is key to the concept of this class?

leaden coral
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Yeah I gave it the same starting stamina as the Fury, it doesn't have any taunt effects right now but that might come later

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Ideally you want to get in the way of enemies harming your allies, and being beefy also helps absorb the occasional collision

wild kernel
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So, in Draw Steel there are 3 main ways to taunt

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  1. Taunt effect. Most straightforward
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  1. Grab. It reduces speed to 0, and applies a bane to attacks that don't target you. I'd argue that this is currently the "strongest" taunt effect
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  1. Positioning. Just being in a place where enemies can hit you, but can't quite hit your allies.
leaden coral
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I was thinking about adding more grab effects (maybe working that into Tidal Lock, which would fit)

wild kernel
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The Null has some grappling, so you might want to stay away from it to keep the classes distinct.

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Although I agree it fits for Tidal Lock

leaden coral
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This is true, and I can still have the "bane on attacks against targets other than you" tag on power rolls without a grab. I do want to see more of the Null and Talent before I commit to too much, because it's very easy to just write general psionic abilities that might overlap too much with the others

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I like Center of Mass but that could just as easily be on the Talent, for instance

wild kernel
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True

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For take up their burdens, what if it was a pull on a target who attacked an ally?

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and then they need to choose a new target from their current position

leaden coral
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Currently TutB works on any damaging effect and only the ally needs to be in range, so the wording would get a little awkward if I had it also affect the creature that dealt the damage (and there may not always be one)

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But I do like the idea of pulling an enemy away from an ally before they can make an attack (and potentially into range to hit you instead)

wild kernel
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yeah, the trigger/range would shift around to be about the enemy, letting your ally be outside the range

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and I think you'd need some stipulation so you can't "strand" a melee enemy between you and your ally, unable to target anyone

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...I have to say "Break Upon me" really has me hooked. I think one of the subclasses should get immunity to damage from being force moved into, and then lots of Pull effect.

leaden coral
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That might be the better way to do the Gravity benefit instead of Momentum Manipulator. Stability equal to Reason and like damage immunity 5 from enemies colliding with you. After factoring in Aura of Inertia you wouldn't take any damage unless the forced movement was 12 or greater

wild kernel
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Eh, why cap it?

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Let it be epic

leaden coral
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Well if I cap it then i can make it apply to ALL collisions

sour basin
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I love pillar of truth!

wild kernel
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I honestly think that's probably fine?

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Most enemies who deal damage via force movement, create terrain and then move you through it

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and you can still get slammed into allies to damage them

leaden coral
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maybe this 🗿

sour basin
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vine boom

leaden coral
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In my mind you can make your pillar look like whatever you want, an obelisk would be sick as hell.

wild kernel
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Maybe it should be a class features, rather than a subclass? Be the main "Wow this class is epic" feature

sour basin
wild kernel
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It also has the upside of being a very simple benefit, so there's more room for complexity with the rest

leaden coral
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I think maybe a level 2 or 3 blanket collision immunity would work, and at level 1 maybe have gravity give a bonus to damage when enemies collide with you?

sour basin
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honestly that pillar could be the pillar of the class imo. Could be an obstacle to throw people into, could be a dueling arena to 1v1 people, etc. I haven't read the whoel class, maybe you're already doing that

leaden coral
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Pillar, swap, and charge I think are the most essential parts of the toolkit. Position yourself with swap, set up a barrier with pillar, knock someone into it with charge. Bread and butter. But we were talking about swap maybe coming later to clear up level 1 a bit

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like if gravity's benefit were changed to this instead of Momentum Manipulator

Immovable_object.PNG
wild kernel
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Yup that works!

leaden coral
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tangent but I'm also reminded of how in our last playtest one player was playing the Conduit and repeatedly used Thunder of the Divine to rocket themselves around

wild kernel
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lmao

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I do think that's a good niche for another subclass

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Either Space or Cohesion?

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Force moving yourself into enemies

leaden coral
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Space currently has more teleportation going on, but I could see it. I could also see Cohesion having more of the self-movement vibe, that one is currently more metaphysical (Shoulder This Burden, which needs a name change to distance it from the triggered action)

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I do love that ability where you point at a goblin and say "here could you hold this for me" and suddenly they have 3 conditions and fall over

wild kernel
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lmao yup

leaden coral
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actually RAW you could transfer Prone right now and thats hilarious

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Also this as another signature ability option? Pull then damage like I mentioned

BeckoningBlade.PNG
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If you were playing gravity with this and used it on an adjacent enemy you could deal an extra 6 damage with the impact

wild kernel
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Yee

leaden coral
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Yeah I think Astral Interchange can go to level 2. Its really good especially with the Magnitude options

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I also want to add some kind of telepathy or mind link feature later on, which would let you swap with allies you can't see (or even enemies that an ally can see)

wild kernel
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Ooh, yeah

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How firm are you on the subclasses?

leaden coral
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not very? I like gravity but it almost feels too in line with what the class is doing, if that makes sense

wild kernel
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That's True. I think Time is the big one that maybe should change though, since both Talent and Null have time based subclasses. We won't know until those get revealed though how much overlap there is

leaden coral
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Yeah, its also the one thats probably giving me the most trouble. The time abilities don't feel like they fit as well, I think it isn't really in line with the archetype I'm going for

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I like I Can Give You Time but it doesn't fit for this

wild kernel
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yeah, my thoughts exactly

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And I do think that Cohesion doesn't really fit the imagery of "force moving myself into people to damage them"

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so maybe there's a a good Principle to match that?

leaden coral
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My suspicion is that the subclasses will get overhauled completely. They feel to basic right now maybe? And they don't really differ in theme

dusk siren
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Its late for me, but I gotta ask, what template did you use for the font and editing, it a dead match?

wild kernel
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Maybe Inertia as the Principle?

leaden coral
dusk siren
leaden coral
# wild kernel Maybe Inertia as the Principle?

I think I want to find a more diverse set of subclasses. Like, aesthetically and thematically distinct from each other, which I don't think the current ones are. It's a little tricky with psionics.

wild kernel
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Gotcha

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Yeah, nothing is really coming to mind. I'll sleep on, see if anything pops up

leaden coral
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Hmmmmm how likely is it I can get away with having an earth-themed subclass called the Stoneward without getting sued by Brando Sando or everyone commenting about how its a Stormlight reference

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I like the idea of a stone themed subclass that has more tools to pull enemies into you. I think maybe an astral/star themed subclass to align more with a general psionics vibe, with more tools for teleporting and walls of force and the like. Maybe a storm subclass? With a greater emphasis on speed and sonic damage with knockback?

mossy locust
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Nothing to add, just wanted to drop in and say this is really cool! :D

dusk siren
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So, I say overall, I like the mechanical tactic, and way the class could fight. Something that I think will be the biggest boon is to not shortchange the lore, and I think figuring out what the narrative of the class is will go a long way to influence the concepts of the types of tactics the Axiom could evolve in. If I might suggest - the creation of semi-real objects out of psionic force might have some legs. Instead of just a 'pillar', what if it can create objects of various complexity. This would maybe round out its ribbon abilities, and give you some new paths to explore for abilities at higher levels.

leaden coral
# dusk siren So, I say overall, I like the mechanical tactic, and way the class could fight. ...

Working in more force/psionic constructions would be cool, though I wonder how that would overlap if I also included a stone subclass. I want to be careful with it though that it doesn't turn into a Green Lantern class, because while that would be cool its a different direction. And I don't want to distract from the core role by opening the potential for questions like "can I make a cannon" or what have you.

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The pillar is a good start and I think that's core, there will be a (probably 5 magnitude cost) ability to create walls. I think the focus should be on big set pieces, and honestly the wall rules as written are pretty versatile. You could use a wall effect to create a bridge across a chasm, for instance.

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If the Axiom is a hammer, the pillar is an on-demand anvil.

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The other idea I was toying with was a portal ability, like the Abyssal Rift that demons have. Create two size 1 rifts, creatures that are pushed into one come out the other.

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But on the subject of ribbons, yeah I think that could be nice. The Creation domain Conduit has something like that, Hands of the Maker. I wouldn't want to overlap with it too hard, but I could see the Axiom making things like a weapon or shield, or temporary floating platforms

dusk siren
leaden coral
dusk siren
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A high level idea might be zero g obelisk, grants flight to creatures in radius perhaps

leaden coral
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Flying I'm a little iffy on since we have so few flying effects in the game right now. I do think a force construct that automatically pulls enemies towards/into it would be a great crowd control option

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I'm also thinking about an AOE effect you place on the ground that amplifies forced movement. Enemies that are force moved through the space move farther by some amount

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Alternatively, a repelling effect that you could place down that pushes enemies away. Ranged allies could stay in the area and be protected from melee monsters approaching

leaden coral
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spookypillar.png

BlackStarObelisk.PNG
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An adjacent enemy will take 6/10/14 damage from colliding with the pillar, which is a LOT for an AOE effect in this game as far as I can tell. Might increase the range but decrease the pull?

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The "activates twice then disappears" is also a tad incongruent with the other abilities I've seen in the game, so that might need to change, but then again there aren't many temporary force construct effects in the game

wild kernel
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Considering most rounds of combat only last 2-3 rounds (and the third round is just cleaning up), I'm not sure it needs to disapear, mechanically. It's fine from a flavor perspective though, if that's why you have it happen

leaden coral
wild kernel
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Mhmm, and at some point the only way to know for sure is just to play the class in a game, and see how it turns out.

leaden coral
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Working on redoing the subclasses, now we have the Astral, Stone, and Storm syntheses

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They also get their own triggered actions, but they're all pretty similar. That's the price for letting them be part of how you gain Magnitude

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Broadly speaking, Astral is about teleportation and finer control. Stone is about pulling enemies into you and being durable. Stone is about moving yourself around and disrupting enemies

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@wild kernel thoughts?

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And these are the new Synthesis features, largely recycled from the old versions. But I think this will work as a base to point each subclass in the right direction, you can pick abilities that best synergize with these options

SynthesisFeatures.PNG
wild kernel
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I think Superposition should let you choose to swap or not

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rather then just taking the damage/effect

leaden coral
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Mmm I see what you mean. Maybe. I think that complicates things if I still give the Swap maneuver at level 2, maybe?

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Or I might have it say something like you can swap with the ally OR gain magnitude

wild kernel
leaden coral
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I guess the level 2 swap is still going to have a bigger range and some other bonuses you can tack on

wild kernel
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and also the maneuver swap is useful for setting up positioning, and putting yourself in a good position

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this one would likely be more about getting an ally out of a bad postion

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just due to the timing, and how the trigger only happens when an ally is attacked

leaden coral
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Yeah. I guess that also puts it on par with the others as far as also being a positioning tool. I think these are a bit stronger than some of the other triggered actions but they also require you to take damage so.

wild kernel
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mhmm

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well, consider that the Shadow damage avoidance also dodges effects

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and lets you reposition

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I think these are fine

wild kernel
leaden coral
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That breaks with the way Aura of Inertia works atm

wild kernel
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oh hmm

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can you post that?

leaden coral
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I don't think its changed much. This is the feature that lets you use forced movement as a semi-reliable way of dealing damage

wild kernel
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Ah, gotcha

leaden coral
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I could maybe have Immovable Object do something like. Let you duplicate the damage you take onto the target? So if you wanted you could also double the damage you take, which would reflect onto the target, but you'd also be taking more damage. I think that's a little swingy though

wild kernel
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The main thing I'm aiming for is an ability that feels very powerful, while still being reasonable

leaden coral
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aint that the truth

wild kernel
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get that "wait, I can do that?" reaction

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and going "yeah, you get to just be immune to knockback damage" works for that

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although actually I think it could work for the Aura of Inertia

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instead of both targets taking damage from a collision, you can make one target take it all

leaden coral
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yep thats it

wild kernel
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weaker in the case where you bash two enemies into each other, but much simpler wording

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and I think it's a good class iconic features

leaden coral
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hmm well wait I guess it loses the Reason scaling...

wild kernel
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that's fine

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can always put a reason scaling into the Pillar you get, or other buffs that happen to happen at levels 4/7/10

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(since that's when the Reason would increase)

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The concern would be less about scaling, and more making sure that Reason is useful enough in the class that it's not a dump stat, if that makes sense?

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but I think there are a number of ways to achieve that

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oooh wait

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you could make the radius of the aura your reason

leaden coral
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not 100% satisfied with this wording

Aura2.PNG
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having to say "creature or object" is clunky

wild kernel
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yeah, I'm wondering if there might be a wording that dodges that somehow

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or at least limits it to just one

leaden coral
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This is a lot weaker when you force enemies to collide, like you said. And I do kind of like the idea of pushing an enemy into a wall to both deal heavy damage to the creature AND have them crash through the wall...

wild kernel
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One of my gripes about the game currently is there is no reason to smash people through walls

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even smashing into walls is suboptimal

leaden coral
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There is!

wild kernel
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I guess if you want to walk through the wall

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but it just deals less damage then bashing two heads together

leaden coral
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Hurling Through Objects page 108 of the backer packet

wild kernel
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oh I know you can do it

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I'm saying there is no incentive

leaden coral
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ohhh sorry misread

wild kernel
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I send the goblin flying through the wall of the inn, he takes 3 damage

leaden coral
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yeah part of the point of this feature is to make it a valid option for at least this class.

wild kernel
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I just clonk him into his buddy, I deal 6 damage

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It makes fight less dynamic

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but anyway, that's a side tangent

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you could have the aura work differently for creatures crashing into objects vs creatures

leaden coral
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I guess the damage allocation version also gets weird when you consider that you can have a size 2 creature crash into two size 1 creatures at the same time

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I also like the option on the aura to reduce the damage that nearby allies take

wild kernel
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Hmm, maybe your original was better, deciding it individually

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Though I might make it double or nothing so you can fit it in one paragraph and it's easier to understand

leaden coral
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I like the idea of putting all the damage on only one of the things involved, but its tricky.

wild kernel
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Could be limited to a specific ability, or one of the subclasses at a higher level?

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could also stack with this effect, double the knockback for both then reflect it all onto one

leaden coral
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Maybe this should also technically be a free triggered action

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per the game's language

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I think the issue is that modifying the impact damage should only happen once. Any subsequent modifications should be flat bonuses. Being able to double or negate the damage, then being able to put one target's damage on another is going to get confusing

wild kernel
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True. You could just say "if you use this effect, the damage can't be increased by Aura of Inertia" or something similar

leaden coral
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bah anti synergy

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In other cans of worms, there's also falling damage

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Narratively I don't see why Aura of Inertia shouldn't apply to that

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Falling damage works at 2 per square remaining, but you can also reduce the height of the fall by an amount equal to your Agility, and it only applies when you fall 2 or more squares...

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Seems convoluted enough that I don't want to worry about increasing it, but maybe I'd allow reducing it

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One high level ability I want to write is just. Detroit become meteor. Teleport or force move yourself WAY up in the air, then fall and deal huge damage to everything in an AOE, while not taking any damage yourself

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Yeah the fact that you can force move a goblin 9 squares to have it punch through a metal wall and it will take 9 damage... lame as hell honestly

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I guess they kept impact damage low so as not to make it too optimal, there are a lot of forced movement effects in the game. Still underwhelming

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Cleaned up a tad. Free triggered action, works with falls

Aura4.PNG
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You won't be able to increase fall damage until you have a Reason score of 3 though

wild kernel
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makes sense

wild kernel
leaden coral
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Yeah I'm kind of annoyed that the damage on hurling through objects is defined directly, harder to modify with abilities

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Like it says 9 damage on moving through metal, and I know that's because it takes 9 squares of movement to move through it so it's just the damage of the impact, but it means I can't easily multiply that based on your Reason

wild kernel
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"When you hurl a creature through an object, the damage the creature takes from that collision is multiplied by your reason."

leaden coral
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Yes, but it doesn't fit easily into the paragraph

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because then I'm referring to falls, normal collisions, AND hurling through objects and that gets tangled

wild kernel
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ahhh

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IMO, just leave that for now

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I'm hopefull MCDM will tweak it in some way to make it more interesting

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No need to try and fix it ourselves yet

leaden coral
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It does strike me as a little odd, they have these rules that can make environmental damage really interesting but the damage is too low to be worth it. Its easy to bump it for this class but I wonder why there's this fucking. Padded playground.

wild kernel
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Anyway, I think the subclasses and aura look good!

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Give me another ping if you decide to reflavor again in a different way :P

leaden coral
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That's level 1 fully playable. 4 options for the 3 and 5 magnitude abilities.

wild kernel
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...should destabalizing strike do 6 damage on a tier 1?

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seems a bit much for a signature

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I think that should 3, since it seems you are using the 3/8/12 chasis

leaden coral
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I think I pulled those numbers from somewhere but yeah maybe. I'm still not clear on the ability damage math

wild kernel
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I recommend this writeup from Prinner for signatures at least #1279787609920503942

leaden coral
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Hmm in that case I think the Signature Weapon Strike (3/7/10). I might reduce it to the Free Strike baseline though, since this class isn't about direct damage

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in any case all the math is going to be subject to change for a while, the forced movement values too

wild kernel
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In general signatures should all have the same power level. It's more about how powerful are the effects that are put on these signatures.

honest moon
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ngl this was a hard sell for me but i really got sold from looking at the class

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summoning the psionic pillar like dall goes hard

leaden coral
honest moon
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yeah for sure

leaden coral
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Anyways I've been thinking about the Storm Synthesis and I think a good rough flavor goal is Thor (I'm specifically thinking of the opening fight in Thor Ragnarok). Moving around lots, smashing into enemies, big aoe disruptions. On some level I wish the classes in this game gave more of the power budget over to the subclasses, but I think I can make it work

honest moon
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i think you have a bit of leeway to finangle it within the personal class design right

leaden coral
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Somewhat, but I also try to stick to the general scaffolding the other classes use when I can

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I'm wondering if Tidal Lock needs to go or be reworked. To me it feels like the most underwhelming of the 5-magnitude abilities right now, but I'm not sure

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I'm also going to try to make some progress on level 2. Matt showed off levels 2 and 3 of the Null (or a WIP version of the Null at least) in a stream so I'm going to work off that. The 2nd level of the Null seems entirely determined by your subclass, you get a smallish feature and then choose between 2 subclass-specific 5-resource abilities

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And then level 3 gives a subclass-independent feature and a choice of 7-resource ability, so that's probably where I'll put the Swap feature

wild kernel
leaden coral
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Have they shown off levels 2-3 of the other classes anywhere? There are the little progression tables at the start but that doesn't tell me much

wild kernel
leaden coral
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Astral Synthesis 5-Magnitude abilities for level 2

Astral5Mag.PNG
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I knew I wanted to have a portal ability from the start, so that's fun. It's pretty simple in execution, you can push an enemy into one rift and they come out another, great for moving enemies into hazards or even just turning a small push into a ton of damage by putting the other portal in the air.

wild kernel
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I was going to say that the portals feel very weak, but if you can put them in mid air....

leaden coral
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Singularity Strike is a great Captain killer. Hitting an enemy surrounded by minions turns into a ton of damage as they all collide, I think this will wipe squads well into the later tiers

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I may need to specify they go on the ground lol, also maybe a once-per-round limit on teleporting so you can't set up loops (put one portal directly above the other for example)

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but we'll see. I think even if you put them in the air, they're stationary and it costs 5 magnitude to recast, so pushing more than one enemy through might be tricky

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The portals are also great for any kind of utility in a map where you need to get somewhere, help NPCs escape, navigate a barrier, etc. They're the 'utility over direct damage' option on the 'utility over direct damage' class

wild kernel
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I think I'd specifically call our they can be placed midair

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"...in open spaces within range (can be mid air)."

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Just becuase that's hugely important

leaden coral
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Sure

wild kernel
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but thinking on it, I do think it's decently balanced?

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at least in the theoretical

leaden coral
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We love white room considerations of balance

wild kernel
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because yes, 20 damage is a lot, but it's a 5 cost ability that you then need to combo into

leaden coral
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20 damage (minus 2x the target's Agility) and prone, technically

wild kernel
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...actually, the big issue is that you could put the second portal on top of another enemy

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and so it becomes 40 damage across two targets the first cast

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that's too much

leaden coral
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I'd be amazed to see that work out in play, with the way the initiative works

wild kernel
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might need to halve the range, or at least limit how far off the ground they can be

wild kernel
leaden coral
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Another option could be to make it an Action

wild kernel
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doesn't really solve it, you can still push as a maneuver

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based on assasinate, ~20 damage is reasonable for a 5 cost action

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...another option is treating it like Open the Earth

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have an immediete power roll to try and catch someone, then after that rely on the forced movement

leaden coral
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I feel like that just makes it stronger, no?

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If the range comes down to 5, there's still the possibility of boosting that with a kit to 7, which would let you deal a theoretical 28 damage across two targets

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though again, accounting for enemy Agility, more like 24 probably? Depending

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Actually yes its range is 5 because Open the Earth is range 5. That's my story and i'm sticking to it

wild kernel