#Matter devices not pairing or staying paired

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

eager yacht
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Not that I have been able to keep working successfully, no.

kind eagle
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I don’t mean to intrude if this was a separate thread for only the two of you (please let me know if that’s the case) but I just wanted to mention that hilariously, I connected my Matter devices to HA from HomeKit initially. They continue to work in HA but have disappeared from HomeKit (they’re visible but are No Response)

royal briar
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I've seen cases in the past where devices got unstable with multi admin (pairing it to multiple ecosystems) - what hardware is it ?

In general, pairing hardware to Apple Home (or Google Home) first and then share from there to HA is actually our recommended route, see also our documentation.

paper helm
# kind eagle I don’t mean to intrude if this was a separate thread for only the two of you (p...

I had this twice:

  1. I have a Matter EVE Door & Window which all of a sudden stopped working in Apple Home (No Response), but worked as expected in Home Assistant. Solution was to remove the battery from the EVE D&W. Some minutes later everything was fine again. I was on vacation for some weeks and it happened shortly after I was away. It didn’t come back on its own. As already said, it worked fine in HA.
  2. I have a Matter EVE Energy. Which wasn’t reachable in HA and in Apple Home. I waited two days, but it didn’t come back on its own. So I removed the plug from current, but it didn’t help, still no response. I decided to reboot my AppleTV 4K (latest Gen incl. Thread Border Router). It took some minutes for the Thread Mesh to get sorted, but after it was done, the device worked as expected again.

Did you try something like that?

I have 35 EVE devices (22 Matter over Thread, 13 HomeKit over Thread) and only one Apple Thread Border Router.

kind eagle
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Ok so situation one is kind of similar to something I was able to do once but not again. Also, none of my matter devices are over thread, they are over WiFi. I guess I’ll try to physically disconnect the power and see if that changes anything

kind eagle
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I did pair to HomeKit first and then to HA… which is why it’s weird that HomeKit is showing no response while HA is working fine 😂

royal briar
# kind eagle This might be the issue as I do have these devices paired to multiple matter adm...

Is it a well known brand or one of the more obscure chinese ones ?
In general WiFi based devices should work more stable atm but do require more power and stability heaviliy depends on the quality of your home network. Thread can also be very stable but at this point (and I test a lot) the only real stable platform is Apple for Thread based devices but now that Google has launched some updates it may have catched up, did not receive the update yet myself to test

kind eagle
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So I have 5 Matter devices total. I have two Nest Thermostats which I assume are connected through WiFi based on the network settings on the device. The other 3 are TP-link dimmer switches which are also WiFi. I don’t mind resetting the light switches to get them to work again but resetting the thermostat feels like a lot of work. And yeah I’m trying to stick to Apple for a lot of it too because they’re less cloud and more local based…. The latency is very noticeable

royal briar
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What I did was just pickup a few Apple Homepod minis second hand on ebay and spread them strategically around the house. Thread coverage everywhere and very stable too. They can also be used as airplay players and doorbell as a bonus.

royal briar
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It wil be very depending on your network setup. It will NOT play nice with (semi)enterprise networking solutions out of the box, such as Unifi

eager yacht
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In my case, it is a no-name-brand outlet, a Sengled bulb, an Aqara window/door sensor, and a Leviton dimmer switch. They are a mix of both WiFi and Thread.

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And yes, I have Unifi APs.

royal briar
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OK, make sure all devices are on the same (v)LAN

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do NOT enable the mDNS repeater/responder in the Unifi console if you have their network router

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And also their setting "multicast enhancements" will do more harm than good

eager yacht
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I don't have their router, I have a virtualized OPNsense router running on a PC.

royal briar
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Point is, Unifi is targeting Enterprise networks where you want to minimize multicast traffic as that hurts the wireless performance (in high desnsity environments) but all these solutions are meant for consumer grade networks heavily relying on multicast

eager yacht
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I'll take a look in the controller interface now.

royal briar
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So you will need to adjust their default settings a bit to make it more behave like consumer grade WiFi

eager yacht
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I'll give these changes a test today and report back. Thanks.

royal briar
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👍 good luck

eager yacht
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After months of troubleshooting, I'll need it.

kind eagle
kind eagle
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So I’m trying to reset them light switches fully but I’m unable to remove the old Matter entries in HA… the delete button is greyed out… any advice?

kind eagle
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Some good news, I was able to use the Google Home app to decommission one of the Nest Thermostats and then that allowed me to add it back in. The second thermostat is saying unknown error so no luck with that one.

royal briar
eager yacht
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Two quick updates from my testing: Matter + WiFi devices do seem to pair better and ownership looks like it can be shared with HA. I am running a log on the HA side to see if the devices stick around or drop off again. Unfortunately, with the Unifi changes the Matter + Thread devices don't work at all with HA. Before it would sometimes be possible after 3 or 4 attempts to pair them or share them from Google Home. Now, these devices timeout and do not connect to HA during sharing at all.

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If anyone has some additional things to try to get the Thread devices working, I'm open to further investigations with them. Thanks for the assistance so far.

paper helm
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What are your Unifi settings? What did you change?

After some discussion here with Marcel, I disabled the following settings:

Global Network Settings:

  • IGMP Snooping
  • Multicast DNS

SSIDs:

  • Multicast Enhancement
  • Proxy ARP

I don’t know if it is really needed to disable that all, but it works absolutely stable/reliable for me. I have 7 VLANs. Only Non-Matter devices that do not necessarily need mDNS are in different VLANs as my Apple Devices.

eager yacht
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My current setup: All VLANs disabled; 2.4Ghz band only; no client isolation; no BSS Transition; No UAPSD, No Fast Roaming; No Multicast Enhancement or Broadcast Control; No Min Data Rate Control; PMF Disabled.

This has caused a lot of pain for my other devices but it appears to help the Matter + WiFi products to work. Matter + Thread, on the other hand, are still just broken.

paper helm
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I have a two mixed SSIDs:

  1. WPA3-Enterprise (2.4/5/6GHz) for my main devices (iPhones, iPads, Watches, Macs, Surface Laptop)
  2. WPA2/WPA3 (2.4/5GHz) with PMF optional and MAC Auth enabled for the rest

Band Steering, BSS Transition, UAPSD and Fast Roaming is enabled in both SSIDs.

I use it this way and it works perfectly fine. So what I want to say is: not in every case it’s needed to disable all settings.

I have a UDM-SE and you an OpenSense Router. So I can’t really help you.

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@eager yacht What exactly on Matter + Thread is broken for you? Can you please post exact error messages/screenshots? Which devices have issues, Matter over Wifi or Matter over Thread? Do you have a working Thread network? How many Thread Devices and Thread Border Routers do you have?

royal briar
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And another important question.. what Thread based Matter devices ? For instance Nanoleaf devices are known to be unstable although new firmware versions should improve things

eager yacht
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These are Matter + Thread devices, and it appear that there are at least three, maybe four, border routers.

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I made a video screen capture of the issues with the two devices, as well as showing all of the border routers. You can view it here: https://youtu.be/GymqmIIj6qw

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YouTube is still processing the video, so it may be a little bit before a hires version is available.

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These are the only two Matter + Thread devices I currently have, and neither are able to join HA.

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And yes, I have done the "cancel -> reboot phone -> retry" dance several times. It does not change the outcome that these devices will not be added to HA.

royal briar
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OK, I have both those devices here too in my test lab and both working solid. They should really work as long as the underlying foundation is right, meaning networking and thread border routers. You may have 3 or 4 possible border routers but do they form one network ? Is HA using that Thread network ?

Perhaps create a screenshot how your Thread topology looks like ?
HA integrations --> Thread --> Configure

royal briar
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I now see in your video you actually posted that info

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You have created 3 different Thread networks

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Google has a thread network
Amazon has one
HA has one

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Which one HA is trying to use is now the million dollar question but I guess the wrong one

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Correct, you actually have 4 independent thread networks somehow

eager yacht
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I am still trying to determine how to setup Thread so it isn't surprising that I might have things wrong. As far as I can tell, I don't see a way to change or join the Google or Amazon thread networks, or can I alter them in any way from the Google Home or Amazon Alexa apps. HA created it's own network, which I have deleted and watch it recreate a number of times. The Nest networks come and go on their own, and I have joined them from HA once, but still I can't get the Thread devices to work.

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I did a web search on this topic but I guess I haven't found a tutorial of how best to resolve these different networks into one that works. If there is a definitive how-to somewhere and someone can point me to it, I'll get after seeing what can be changed.

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On the topic of the Matter + WiFi devices... something happened over night and now both devices appear as "unavailable." Neither are reachable by either HA or Google Home, so I guess there is more to do still on that front.

royal briar
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Well, its not ready for prime time yet, especially not when you have multiple ecosystems like you have. Future plans are to form one big thread network of multiple border routers, even of different brands, but that is not yet there. Stable is a single ecosystem setup, such as a few Apple border routers in the Apple ecosystem (and HA can leverage that existing thread network). Same applies for Google.

Everything else is just not ready for daily use and considered highly experimental only

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Matter + WiFi devices and Matter bridges however should be working ans stable

eager yacht
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So far on my network, at least, I haven't found any of the products working as stable. I admit that with Unifi, a virtualized firewall, multiple VLANs, and the like that I am far from the typical use case. I only wish the marketing hype around Matter would simmer down a little, because when compared to Zigbee and Z-Wave, Matter has a long ways to go to be as stable or accessible.

royal briar
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You are running an enterprise network setup and expect these consumer grade devices to be working? Simplify your network and it will work great.

eager yacht
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Consumer network equipment and I don't mix, sadly

paper helm
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It’s not that hard.

  1. Bring all your Matter devices/hubs/bridges, all your Thread Border Routers and your Home Assistant into the same VLAN.
  2. Disable all mDNS reflectors.
  3. Reduce your Thread networks to one. At the moment it means that all your Thread Border Routers are from one vendor in the best case.
eager yacht
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I have a bin full of it and none of it works

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How do you reduce the other routers? Amazon and Google don't list that information that I can find

paper helm
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Remove them from your network, if they don’t exchange the credentials or learn how to do it. As already said, this is not ready for prime time.

eager yacht
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I can't remove them as they are active in use for non thread purposes

paper helm
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I have only one Thread Border Router (latest gen AppleTV 4K) at the moment.

paper helm
# eager yacht I can't remove them as they are active in use for non thread purposes

So you have to deal with the issues. This will change in future. But at the moment it’s not very easy to exchange the credentials between the different Thread networks to build one big Thread network instead of 3 or 4 networks in your case. If you buy only Apple Thread Border Routers they form one big Thread network. The same for Googles Thread Border Routers.

eager yacht
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Except for the best hardware, that's another set of routers

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Nest, not best

paper helm
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Try to reduce it for the moment, reset and re-pair your Matter over Thread devices again.

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What exactly are your Border Routers?

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Are there any options to disable the Thread Border Router functionality on your devices? For Apple its not the case.

eager yacht
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No options to remove/reduce/eliminate the other routers. On Amazon and Google/Nest devices, if they are plugged into power then Matter is on (as far as I can tell)

paper helm
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Ok, but Matter is not Thread. But yes, that may be the case for both. As already said, with Apple its not possible to disable the Thread Border Router functionality.

eager yacht
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Thread comes with all the border router devices I have

paper helm
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What are your Border Routers exactly?

eager yacht
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Amazon Echo, Google Home Hub, Nest Thermostats, SkyConnect dongle for HA.

paper helm
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Ok, Nest Thermostat is a Thread Border Router?

eager yacht
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it appears so.

paper helm
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But Nest and Google should form one Thread network and it’s also possible to form a Thread network between Google and HA. What did you try to get this solved?

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I am not the right person to help you, because I am an Apple only user.

eager yacht
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I appreciate it. No, Each Google device creates its own separate network, so I have 3: one for the Google Hub and one each for the two thermostats

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and Google provides no UI or way to turn them off, join them, etc.

paper helm
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I think you have to reset everything, because at the moment there is no migration process.

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As already said, I am not the right person. 😄

eager yacht
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I'm willing to do things or try different steps, but there appear to be hard limits on what can be done right now.

paper helm
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It’s even possible to form one Thread network between Apple and HA, if you have the network key. On iOS you can easily read the network key, if you have a Nanoleaf Matter over Thread bulb paired to the Nanoleaf app. The app shows you the key.

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I am really sure, that it’s possible to form one Thread network between Google and HA.

kind eagle
kind eagle
paper helm
# kind eagle I’ll have to look into this then. I am using mostly all Apple except for my two ...

Nest Thermostats aren’t Thread Border Routers. Are they updated to the Matter firmware? If so they could be paired to Apple Home via Matter over Thread and this way they get the Apple Thread credentials automatically in the commissioning process. You need an AppleTV 4K or a HomePod (Mini or G2) with Thread Border Router capabilities. At least this is my understanding. I do not own Nest Thermostats.

paper helm
eager yacht
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Not yet. Uniquiti just sent me new firmware to try.

paper helm
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That wouldn’t solve your issue with three different Thread networks. 😉

eager yacht
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True, but Google won't let me fix that so I work on what I can

paper helm
kind eagle