Anyone else notice that the new lovelace yaml editor is kinda broken? It's not auto-indenting, it won't overwrite characters, and it actually enters characters in the reverse order than they were typed in a lot of circumstances
#the-water-cooler
subtle pasture
clever mortar
Others have reported things... in the relevant channels ๐
subtle pasture
I'm not reporting, I'm bitching
clever mortar
I don't know if anybody got as far as opening an issue though
clever mortar
Non-support bitching ๐
subtle pasture
Not asking for support, but aight
low harness
Noone said anything about having anything fixed ๐คท
subtle pasture
I expect it'll get sorted out eventually
clever mortar
Well, if anybody opens issues...
There's a habit here of folks posting about problems, and then not opening issues ๐คฃ
subtle pasture
That's because
But yeah, I could deal with it if it weren't literally typing backwards
Weirdest issue I've seen in a while
low harness
Reminds me of that sickening thing modern MS Office versions do with the caret.
Where you're typing on, but the caret doesn't jump to the next position, but smoothly floats over there. Sometimes it can be several characters behind.
subtle pasture
It's worse if hardware acceleration isn't working for some reason
hushed basalt
Reminds me of that sickening thing modern MS Office versions do with the caret.
It's the worse
You can adjust it though
It's a "feature"
low harness
I made a regedit script to turn it off and passed around the company. Made me quite popular.
subtle pasture
...you know, this is what group policy is for >_>
low harness
They added a switch for it in later versions, I think.
subtle pasture
Could have automatically pushed that registry key to any domain-joined computer
hushed basalt
I turn off animations everywhere I can
The idea of making something slower on purpose is crazy to me
low harness
The marker in excel is even worse. It takes like .3 seconds to move from one end of the window to the other. Ain't nobody got time for that.
subtle pasture
The idea of making something slower on purpose is crazy to me
Animations can actually be critical to good UI design, by giving the user visual context for wtf just happened
They can also be done... poorly...
When done well, you probably don't even notice them, they just helpfully give you context as you navigate around
hushed basalt
Windows doesn't do it well
And they should never slow down the actual flow of what you're trying to do
Ie "window expands for 500ms"
subtle pasture
Windows actually has some of the shortest animations around. Apple devices are horrendous about slow flashy animations.
low harness
A good example is the highlight of ... I don't even remember the name... the buttons at the bottom where you switch windows in windows. The effect is immediate, but the animation shows which window got focus and which one lost it.
Task bar?
subtle pasture
Yeah, that'd be the taskbar
Also, using the taskbar with all the delays disabled actually becomes a nightmare, because it reacts to hover events instantly
With no delays, it'll flicker between windows in a way that's basically useless
low harness
The caret thing also doesn't actually have an effect. Even with the floating cell thing, you can start typing and the data will go in the right place. But the animations give me motion sickness.
Actually, that's probably why it's nauseating. Because it doesn't have an effect but the brain thinks it should.
subtle pasture
Welcome to why VR makes some people motion sick ๐
low harness
I once rearranged my keyboard keys to dvorak, but didn't actually remap the keys (because I had to be productive from time to time while learning). But whenever I looked at the keyboard, the keys tried to move back to their right places. It was scary.
last cedar
clear ferry
yall and your guis
lapis cipher
"We are writing to inform you that we have refunded 44.0700 USD for order 9593" - crap, my bad vision made me thought i got nice positive cash flow but i think that's a comma, not a dot..
hushed basalt
Maybe it's european USD
molten osprey
Anyone have an idea about how to use an alternative to overlayfs, when using Docker?
clear ferry
why don't you want to use overlayfs ?
molten osprey
it doesnt work over nfs
clear ferry
so you are trying to map a NFS share into a container ?
molten osprey
I'm running a diskless machine on which I want to run Docker.
I can't get it to boot off of CIFS ... so using NFS
clear ferry
so you have already booted the machine over NFS ?
clear ferry
then, can you mount any NFS share to another local path
and then use that to map into the container ?
molten osprey
oh no its more fundamental than that - dockerd wont start
molten osprey
yeah
pretty sure the problem is overlayfs ... lots of messages of this issue not working due to nfs
clear ferry
afaik overlayfs is the standard in MAPR
which uses global NFS
with cross country replication
๐คท
molten osprey
i'll have another look
doing a reset back to fresh install first ... i'm not much of a Linux expert. i know exactly the right amount of stuff to cause mayhem, and think nothing is beyond my capabilities. a recipe for disaster ๐
dusky plank
short answer: you can't. yet
you need to make a temp ramfs,
and sync files on boot/shutdown
molten osprey
@dusky plank Yeah, I had that working. But I don't have enough RAM to accomadate the data store for all those containers.
clear ferry
dusky plank
<@!664057275421556751> Yeah, I had that working. But I don't have enough RAM to ...
download more ram
molten osprey
hehe
dusky plank
#449717345808547842 should at least fit
molten osprey
yeah
the biggest one i had (which was ha core) was 1.4GB, the majority of which (1.0GB) was python packages ๐
hushed basalt
if you sit it up straight ... it reaches 85mm
That's what she said
deft pewter
๐ค
clear ferry
last cedar
lapis cipher
I find it still amusing people having this stuff as their signature on forums ๐
cedar chasm
Are those devices on-topic for the forums in question?
lapis cipher
yeah, its a robot forum but same applies to any many forums
cedar chasm
I mean, sure it could be construed as boasting, but it also proves that the person has some buy-in to the topics discussed and isn't just passing through
lapis cipher
its kinda visible from the left side (besides that was also a moderator). Its fine, i just find it funny
cedar chasm
Keep adding devices and accessories to the list until it gets absurd
then we have the makings of some great sketch comedy ๐
Wooden chair (Pine)
raw ivy
is there anything for smarthubs like ddwrt/openwrt is for home routers? I'd love to use the radios in a smartthings hub with a different firmware load that removes all of the cloudy bits.
last cedar
Kinda, you can use your own reciever
For example a zzh, for zigbee. If you know what protocol you want, go look in the respective channels!
raw ivy
different angle
I'd like to load up a 3rd party firmware onto my smartthings hub that allows for a home assistant install on another device to connect to the hub and use the radios
I'm using some usb sticks for HA now, but see my smartthings hub sitting on a shelf and wonder when/if what I'm asking about will be a thing
deft pewter
It'll be a thing whenever someone with the know-how reverse engineers it. I wouldn't hold your breath.
DDWRT is popular because it runs on a whole load of devices that are reasonably easy to flash. Smartthings... ๐คข
cedar chasm
deft pewter
Is it raining AGAIN? ๐ค
Man. I'm so glad I'm taking a couple of days off midweek this week. Started a new piece of work that I estimated at 5 days and now I get to see if I can do it by Friday even with time off ๐
cedar chasm
As long as you get full credit and they don't start reducing estimates excessively, happy days
Previously: 5 Days
Now: could you have it done by lunch-time?
deft pewter
Haha. I already told my boss that it might run over my estimate but reminded him that the whole point of this piece I'm doing is to remove the need for future pieces.
I'm basically building a file processor that can accept a CSV form with any number of headers with any names, along with a template that a user populates that describes which headers we should search, then extracts the relevant values. Means they won't have to keep asking us to build a new processor every time someone comes up with a slightly different input file... we'll just tell some lackey to write a template ๐
So what if my work takes twice my estimate? Future files become a 5 minute job.
cedar chasm
That's a fun task
dusky plank
deft pewter
I was against it at first because it has the potential to get complicated if you try to build the logic into the templates and expect the processor to perform that logic. Instead, I pushed back on the logic side and said I'll do the 'hunting' for values based on user-provided definitions but that there'll be zero logic. If they want something complicated building in the future, they have 3 teams of engineers that can build it ๐
And once I realised there was a fairly simple way to do it, I volunteered for it so I can take all the credit.
last cedar
@deft pewter โค๏ธ thank you!
dusky plank
logo desin on fleek ๐
last cedar
Hmmmm
lapis cipher
give my gif back!
deft pewter
Where'd it go? ๐ฎ
cedar chasm
I'm basically building a file processor that can accept a CSV form with any numb...
Your tales sent me back to my github cause I could have sworn I did something vaguely similar.
Closest I got was some python I did 2 years ago, following a video course but I can't remember having written any of it, except for a few of the print() statements.
https://github.com/bitmadao/pypsqlimporter/blob/master/pypsqlimport.py
no good to not practice the craft, apparently
deft pewter
Hopefully I won't be sacked for sharing this little of it ๐ https://hatebin.com/wucptbwewd
The mappings in the template basically have the left hand side being the field we care about internally and the right hand side being the name (or names) of the header the user tells us to look in.
There's a whole load more that'll go on before and after this because it's for processing bank statements into another service, and the mappings are going to be more complex once complete.
cedar chasm
Now that's a proper task
deft pewter
Yeah, it's a fun little challenge. Nothing too complex but had to think about the best approach as I was the one designing the templates too. Needs to be versatile enough that we can eliminate plenty of future dev work but still simple enough that support teams can produce them with little to no input from us (ideally just a page in the docs).
Definitely simpler than what I was doing in my spare time this week. Frigging algorithms.
cedar chasm
That's not something I'd feel comfortable around, no
deft pewter
The algorithms were actually fun. Did a few coding challenges... none of them specify which algorithm you'll need, so half the fun is actually figuring that out. Then you're still left implementing them without external libraries ๐
I didn't know what an 'absorbingMarkov chain' was two days ago and now I've written a Python app that can solve them and work out the probabilities of reaching each absorbing state. Exactly what weekends are for...
cedar chasm
Makes sense. I had a lot of fun with the prime number challenges we did in coding class at Uni
That was a different life ago though
I couldn't handle the pressures of a real life development team, so I resigned and worked as a bicycle courier for 2 years
deft pewter
It took me quite a while to settle in to my team. I think it's normal to take time to find your feet.
I'm also acutely aware that there are people way cleverer than I am. But I do what's asked of me in a reasonable time.
cedar chasm
If there was one thing I identified that I felt disqualified me from working in development it was that my reaction to needing to learn new tools and frameworks wasn't: "Oh great, I get to learn something" but rather: "Nooooo, more learning, and it has to be learned by the end of this estimate"
deft pewter
I guess it depends on what other pressures are on you at the time. If I'm in a hurry, I definitely don't want to be learning new stuff as well as cranking out code to hit a deadline.
A lot of the time, it comes down to analysing the problem at the beginning and breaking it down into manageable pieces. And then when you discover you still have to learn something for one of the pieces, it's not quite as daunting because you have everything mapped out.
lapis cipher
wise words my imaginary friends
i can so relate to that part "i need to get something done but i just can't start with hello world to learn this stuff" ie. right tool, no skills
i would so much nowadays need python but i feel there's never time to really dig into it, i don't feel i have time nor interest on my freetime for that either. Heck, we just had "hack week" last week and we were able to do anything, i did everything but..
cedar chasm
I mean, if all I had to do was wile away my days on a deserted island with all my needs provided for by coconuts and docile fish that jumped into my camp fire, I might find the peace of mind to learn lots of stuff.
I'm not making much sense.
deft pewter
i would so much nowadays need python but i feel there's never time to really dig...
Learning Python isn't too bad. I had my second outing with it with these coding challenges (I work with NodeJS but had to submit the answers in Python or Java ๐ )
lapis cipher
I kind of don't have enough patience with it when i come across a need to talk with api like now and do this that and so forth.. Heck i've got my salary from coding multiple languages but over the time focus shifted to other stuff and those skills got nice rust cover
deft pewter
Haha, yeah. Happens to all skills eventually.
deft pewter
I wouldn't. The lawn is on the roof.
deft pewter
They, uh... really like wood
deft pewter
Black slate flooring and light wood walls and ceilings. They have no taste.
clear ferry
Wife says I have issues
deft pewter
Orange kitchen. Orange leather sofas. ๐คข #
clear ferry
I would buy the shit out of that
deft pewter
It's possibly one of the ugliest interiors I've ever seen.
deft pewter
The layout is decent. The exterior looks cool. They just have no design skills ๐
I forgot how awful Lexx was ๐
clear ferry
There is a thin line between aweful and great
But it had tits in my teenage years
Which made it better
lapis cipher
I concur with the comments above, interior needs some chains^H^H^H^H design
shame there's no pictures of those other buildings, i am mostly interested about the new workspaces..
deft pewter
Doesn't seem bad for a house that size ๐คทโโ๏ธ
If we move again in the next couple of years, we're probably looking at spending a little less than that and won't get that much house...
cedar chasm
Can you move out of an urban center and get more for your money where you are, mono?
lapis cipher
didn't translate that to any human prices, lots of zeros still..
deft pewter
Yeah, we're gonna try to move a few miles out. But looks like my employer is still gonna insist I go back to the frigging office ๐คข
If I could WFH forever, I could find a really nice house for ยฃ300-350k. Instead, that money might get a smallish 4-5 bed place. Not much land, just plenty of rooms.
Would love to not have neighbours but that won't happen.
lapis cipher
Oh you indeed feel like most antisocial person ๐
deft pewter
I've lived in flats before. I hate listening to other people.
The whole point of a home is to have to privacy and some peace away from other people.
lapis cipher
true, it should be optional to be social and not enforced to smalltalk when one doesn't feel like it
cedar chasm
Just think back to when one lane would share a communal toilet
deft pewter
Joke's on them. I don't have to share my bucket.
cedar chasm
touche
lapis cipher
i have only 2000m2 yard but with some spruce fencing and stuff i can be quite alone
deft pewter
That's quite a bit more than I have now ๐
lapis cipher
but you'll get it soon!
I've said to friends "i'm not a philatelist, thus i don't live in a property sized of a stamp"
deft pewter
Unlikely. Gardens that big aren't common in the UK.
deft pewter
'only' ๐
deft pewter
I've never measured my plot. Maybe 250-300mยฒ including the house?
clear ferry
So the size of my greenhouse
lapis cipher
this is a bit countryside, not far from here the properties are much smaller and more expensive, we opted for more space
deft pewter
Aha. My estimation skills suck. Just found an online tool to trace on Google Maps and get the area... 185mยฒ
deft pewter
๐คทโโ๏ธ It's what we could afford a few years ago when we moved. I wasn't a dev then, so my salary's rising now.
lapis cipher
changing properties ain't cheap here, taxes taken and other expenses is quickly some 20-40 kEUR pure loss
deft pewter
Yeah, pretty expensive here too. Next move will probably be the last.
cedar chasm
The only certain things in life, death and taxes
deft pewter
You need to replace the potato that took the photo.
clear ferry
Replace Google maps you say
lapis cipher
your quadcopter sucks
cedar chasm
Too bad those goats from before don't have cameras
deft pewter
Eh... I'd be happy with that much space.
Looks like a similar size to my in-laws' plot.
Can't afford to live on their estate though. Prices start around ยฃ500k ๐ข
deft pewter
Quirky layout but I like it.
clear ferry
That house was ยฃ430k in 2004, is ยฃ870k now
deft pewter
Is the house on 3 stories?
clear ferry
It is only two stories
They live on the top, and there are two apartments in the bottom part
deft pewter
Neighbours...
clear ferry
Make quite a bit of money per year on tourists, think with the two apartments and the tourists they pull in ยฃ3-4000 per month
bitter pawn
jokes aside, makes alot of sense to do that these days
1 house for the folks, 1 house for the college student aged kiddos
clear ferry
Tourism is huge in northern norway
All the Chinese want to see the northern lights
lapis cipher
we have chinese transit passengers at our airport stuck as they've been tested positive.. Reminds me of one movie..
bitter pawn
better they stay at the airport vs. going wherever they were going
clear ferry
https://open.spotify.com/track/0SuB4U2geCV2LEkrfK5p9g?si=l9BC4ErFSnykiXXeU7gYRg&utm_source=copy-link
lapis cipher
The Terminal was the movie, ie. stuck at the airport, cannot go home, cannot go to US soil.. Not that i like the idea of isolating those people into the international areas of the airport either.. I think city eventually arranged them some quarantine spaces nearby
clear ferry
Not https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112040/ @lapis cipher ?
clear ferry
I am biased
cedar chasm
That movie was on tv once
cedar chasm
I arrived late, and things made little sense
but I remember that blind kid
oh, it was a TV-mini-series
I must have only seen half an episode
clear ferry
<https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2467046/>
Wtf that is the same plot as the leftovers
deft pewter
You're a leftover.
cedar chasm
Simpsons did it
deft pewter
The Langoliers was directed by Tom Holland? That's nuts. He wasn't even born yet.
low harness
There's 736 episodes. Of course the Simpsons did it.
cedar chasm
Disclaimer: I didn't actually check if they in fact did it. But as you say 736 episodes means they probably did
lapis cipher
oh, there's the movie, just one click away (cage-version..)
deft pewter
There's 736 episodes. Of course the Simpsons did it.
Reckon there's a fairly even chance between 'Simpsons did it' and 'there's an xkcd for that'?
deft pewter
oh, there's the movie, just one click away (cage-version..)
The Cage one wasn't awful. If it didn't have Cage, it'd be crap... so I'm never going to watch the original series of movies ๐
lapis cipher
Thank dog they don't dub anything here, i'm ok with localized covers..
deft pewter
๐ค
cedar chasm
Thank dog. Is that a Preacher reference?
lapis cipher
I learned it from here, was thinking if that should be raccoon instead
deft pewter
Reminds me of one of my favourite jokes... what do you get if you cross an agnostic, a dyslexic and an insomniac?
cedar chasm
I don't know, what do you get?
deft pewter
Someone that stays up all night wondering if there really is a dog.
deft pewter
I know... dad joke...
cedar chasm
I learned it from here, was thinking if that should be raccoon instead
Maybe it's a racoon dog, but the racoon is silent ๐
last dirge
tanuki?
deft pewter
I swear Michelle has an alert set up to tell her whenever someone's talking about raccoons.
lapis cipher
sorry to have you paged, it was an accident!
cedar chasm
tanuki?
Best part of Mario Kart 8 for me is when you select the Tanuki Mario he just gleefully shouts "Tanukiiii"
WOOP wooop, police outside
deft pewter
What did you do?
deft pewter
No need to arrest you though. Having your containers wreck themselves is punishment enough ๐
cedar chasm
We have a pro-active state. An executor for my estate has already been appointed, my address from here on out will be the padded rooms at an undisclosed location
Let my tale be a cautionary one
deft pewter
You're the only one ๐
cedar chasm
That's a solid gif, no doubt about it
winter wren
yesterday i thought about you..somebody asked about teams integration
clear ferry
@deft pewter you were gone for so long that @last cedar had to become a proper cunt and tell people off, do you feel proud of yourself?
deft pewter
I forgot the first season of Lexx was all feature length episodes ๐
deft pewter
yesterday i thought about you..somebody asked about teams integration
Did you get them to install my malware integration?
dusky plank
with sound
cedar chasm
<@363445247323144192> you were gone for so long that <@300242410338910209> had ...
That terrifying moment when a Raccoon goes from Trash-panda to Trash-velociraptor
deft pewter
Clever girl
deft pewter
Unix with a UI? Lies
cedar chasm
The hallmark of any posix compliant system, pls be reasonable
bitter pawn
dont you see how slow the UI is? totally believable on unix....
deft pewter
Man. Tim Curry was in Lexx too? ๐ฎ
hushed basalt
https://tenor.com/view/shocked-i-know-this-unix-system-gif-14433570
I love how that little twerp just stands next to her tapping her chair instead of passing the grown ups a gun.
subtle pasture
https://tenor.com/view/nerd-ackchyually-actually-gif-11156171
The moobs hanging over the frame makes me chuckle every time
lapis cipher
funny you should say that, i just clicked for full snapshot..
502: Bad Gateway - this is fine
mossy nymph
I want a way to see the actual screen of my sons roku TV from home assistant. is this possible and where should I start
green inlet
First you should read the channel topics. Roku is an integration so questions related to integrations fo in the #integrations-archived channel. Here is what you are after though
static schooner
I don't think they'll have any luck getting the actual screen content out of that
green inlet
Nope, but I do not know of a way to get an actual live screen on any of the media player integrations but with the proper media player card it should show what is playing
subtle pasture
funny you should say that, i just clicked for full snapshot..
So... if you just KEEP waiting... a snapshot eventually appears after a page refresh
Also, if you try to take a snapshot while it's still snapshotting in the background, it won't do anything
Which means the timeout error doesn't actually catch the runaway snapshot process... which is a problem in and of itself ๐ค
Off to github I go
last dirge
anybody have a patio misting system that works well?
I hacked something together that worked but it required a lot of fiddling
mainly to fog the back deck before going out with the dogs so it doesn't burn their feet
last dirge
this is the first year in I can't tell you how long I don't owe at tax filing
clear ferry
Snapshots ๐คข
dusky plank
dusky plank
started upgrade to .3.3, lets see what all this pwned fuzz is about
clear ferry
atx u don't have backups ?
I have proper backups 
https://open.spotify.com/album/4TZmVQz3aV8yxxcogVNFW6?si=37Mws0GuSku4G2TkogjjgQ&utm_source=copy-link
winter wren
track is not available in your country.... boooo
forest edge
track is not available in your country.... boooo
just imagine if the teletubbies released an album and that is what you are missing by not being able to listen to most the stuff he posts
winter wren
:))))))))))))0
clear ferry
Sorry it can't all be Mr Conway Twitty @forest edge
dusky plank
well, that was disappointing, no popups, no warnings, no nothing pwned ๐ข
winter wren
but your HA booted already or no-nothing?
dusky plank
yeah, everything is up
winter wren
u forgot to turn on logger :))))
clear ferry
IDDQD @dusky plank
winter wren
funny that hacs icon doesn't appear after upgrading HA
dusky plank
wimpywimpywimpy
clear ferry
winter wren
and icons are working...fantastic
now i have to find the one that broke my power supply for wled
dusky plank
only miio is deprecated...
and even when I removed it from config.yml and wanted to add it via UI...
it's already been there.
nothing to do ๐ค
clear ferry
forest edge
there needs to be more love for 12 hour clocks in stuff.. not everything needs to be 24 hour
clear ferry
12h is useless
forest edge
your useless
noble pivot
๐
clear ferry
So does my wife say
noble pivot
12 is so 1970
dusky plank
what even is midnitght? am or pm?
clear ferry
It brings nothing to the table
forest edge
midnight is am
clear ferry
Except American exceptionalism
forest edge
noon is pm
dusky plank
00:00 am
00:01 pm
forest edge
what
dusky plank
yeah, what? huh?
forest edge
it's not exactly hard to put in a switch to accommodate 12 h
the only thing grafana is teaching me is that openweather is complete trash for accurate weather readings
forest edge
ghosts of hangouts past
tawny orchid
deft pewter
deft pewter
You really love that gif, huh? ๐
subtle pasture
Snapshots ๐คข
Ok, wtf do you have against snapshots? Lol
clever mortar
They're not backups, and people treat them as if they are ๐
winter wren
docker is for experts payed with 500 pounds/day
subtle pasture
@clever mortar if we're talking about file system or virtualization snapshots, you're right, they're not backups (not on their own)
clever mortar
HA Snapshots are the same, they stay on the host
subtle pasture
They're still absolutely indispensable
clever mortar
You need other things to copy them off the host
deft pewter
docker is for experts payed with 500 pounds/day
Let me know where to find these people so I can learn their secrets.
subtle pasture
Docker please ๐ฏ
Yeaaaah, docker is still a bitch. Home Assistant in docker, doubly so
deft pewter
I've had zero issues since switching and the switch itself only took me a couple of evenings (learning Docker from scratch, no less).
clever mortar
Docker is a puppy
subtle pasture
HA's Docker image requires direct networking, which immediately means there are things you CAN'T do without a second server/VM
winter wren
but who manages dockers ?
deft pewter
but who manages dockers ?
This little YAML file called docker-compose and a bit of magic ๐
subtle pasture
Nope, because then other dockers can't see the traffic. Want to reverse proxy HA? You're boned without a second Docker host
deft pewter
I reverse proxy my HA container just fine ๐คทโโ๏ธ
subtle pasture
I do too, but can't do it on the same system running HA if HA is in a container
deft pewter
All my containers bar one (Organizr, so unrelated) run on the same host. Containerised nginx works fine as a reverse proxy to containerised HA on the same host.
deft pewter
Many of us do this... it works.
subtle pasture
Just explained why... Home Assistant requires direct networking
Which means traefik, running on the same host, can't proxy it
deft pewter
๐ค
subtle pasture
Then discovery doesn't work. Lol
dusky plank
no trouble with traefik here ๐
hushed basalt
That way I can still use traefik service discovery and lock down my exposed HA instance
subtle pasture
Running an entire second copy of the software to work around a Docker limitation is one heck of a big-brain move
deft pewter
Yeah... I've seen a ton of people use swag/traefik/nginx without jumping through all these hoops.
hushed basalt
It solves the problem, it doesn't require any work once set up,
dusky plank
why though? you realise you can join multiple networks to a container?
deft pewter
You don't need multiple hosts to do any of this.
hushed basalt
Traefik docker discovery won't work with a host mode HA
subtle pasture
I didn't have to jump through any hoops, but I use VMs
deft pewter
Making more machines, virtual or otherwise, is hoops.
subtle pasture
Docker, couldn't do it without breaking HA functionality
hushed basalt
HA doesn't work without host mode on docker, but host mode is dirty af
subtle pasture
Finally, someone else who knows ^
deft pewter
We all know...
hushed basalt
It lowers my attack surface by not having to worry about reverse proxing my remote HA instance
I only need master HA to websocket into it. Everything else is locked down
subtle pasture
Making more machines, virtual or otherwise, is hoops.
Aight, but the only other solution raised was running an entire second copy of Home Assistant, which is also hoops
hushed basalt
Set it up once and it's just hands off after that
I use env variables in my CI to update both HA images at the same time too
I haven't logged onto it since I set it up
deft pewter
Tell me what I'm missing here, cos I clearly don't understand the problem. I have these (and many other) containers running behind the reverse proxy managed by nginx: https://hatebin.com/mdpdgfbwfb
dusky plank
nginx is a different story
deft pewter
Who cares? It's a reverse proxy. Leapo said it's not possible.
dusky plank
traefik can use dynamic service mapping
hushed basalt
You can do the same thing with traefik but the point is to not expose any ports of the container directly
dusky plank
u can just use a replacement proxy for HA behind traefik though
so no problem at all
subtle pasture
Tell me what I'm missing here, cos I clearly don't understand the problem. I hav...
Home Assistant is fully exposed, because host networking
hushed basalt
The only way through with how I have it now is through traefik
deft pewter
Exposed to the host, sure. And if I cared about that, I'd just lock down the ports on that host. ๐คทโโ๏ธ
To be honest, if someone gets into my network, I'm screwed. I control the boundaries I care about, which is basically my router.
subtle pasture
If you locked down 8123 on the host, the reverse proxy to HA would stop working. Lol
hushed basalt
Host mode means opening up a crazy amount of ports
deft pewter
Ok. So we're talking about two different things here. When you say 'reverse proxies don't work with host mode', what you really mean is 'reverse proxies don't work with host mode if you want to restrict access to services via anything but the reverse proxy'. Gotcha.
subtle pasture
So yeah, NGINX still can't see Home Assistant without loopback
deft pewter
I'm using the proxy out of utility. Multiple domains coming in on the same machine and going to the right service. Works 100%.
subtle pasture
Ok. So we're talking about two different things here. When you say 'reverse prox...
No, what I really mean is "reverse proxies don't work with host mode".... Because they don't, the HA docker is invisible within Dockers internal network.
You've got loopback going to make it work
hushed basalt
There's no way I'm putting something that can open my doors on host mode
subtle pasture
Which... Fully exposes HA outside of docker networking
deft pewter
So it works to fulfil the exact need I set it up for. Right.
subtle pasture
That's not working. Lol
deft pewter
Multiple domains. One host. Multiple services. ๐ฏ
subtle pasture
It's fully exposed, why even proxy it?
deft pewter
Why? To do this: #the-water-cooler message
subtle pasture
You've defeated the point while making it "work"
deft pewter
Proxies have more than one use.
Hell, I could set up nginx just to host a single static website if I wanted. That's still a perfectly valid use of a reverse proxy. It's a choice to also lock down the other stuff and incorporate security.
low harness
HA doesn't work without host mode on docker, but host mode is dirty af
macvlan FTW!
subtle pasture
It's also a bitch when you have more than one container that requires host mode
subtle pasture
Zero port overlap? Wild
clever mortar
deft pewter
I had a single container that ended up with a port collision and it was easily configured to use another.
container_name: adguardhome
volumes:
- './adguardhome/work:/opt/adguardhome/work'
- './adguardhome/conf:/opt/adguardhome/conf'
network_mode: host
command: '-h 0.0.0.0 -p 4000 -c /opt/adguardhome/conf/AdGuardHome.yaml -w /opt/adguardhome/work'
image: adguard/adguardhome```I had to park so far away on the train station carpark
I'm literally 60% of the distance if I just walked home
deft pewter
Not exactly difficult to pass in a param ๐คทโโ๏ธ
dusky plank
so much information right here
subtle pasture
Multiple domains. One host. Multiple services. ๐ฏ
Not following
hushed basalt
He means he is using the proxy to route to different upstream based on the host header
subtle pasture
Like, you can do that without a reverse proxy
hushed basalt
How?
deft pewter
home.mono.com -> some external IP -> server -> HA container
plex.mono.com -> same IP again -> same server again -> plex container
et cetera, et cetera
subtle pasture
DNS server and SRV records for port hints, yeah
deft pewter
For incoming traffic, why wouldn't I use a reverse proxy for this? ๐ค
subtle pasture
You would
low harness
I would
dusky plank
me too
deft pewter
Ok, so we're back to 'reverse proxies work with host networking mode' because that's exactly what I do.
subtle pasture
Except they don't, because they can't even see the docker container...
deft pewter
I only open ports 80 and 443 on my router, they go to nginx, nginx handles the rest.
I can access every service externally.
subtle pasture
They way you've configured it, as far as NGINX is concerned, it's proxying an entire second host...
dusky plank
leapo... use a small proxy to proxy your host net HA and point traefik to that one. booom
deft pewter
If it succeeds in fulfilling my goal, what bit isn't working? ๐ค
It literally does what I set it up to do. Success.
I feel like you're being awfully pedantic and considering criteria that we don't all care about.
subtle pasture
@dusky plank My reverse proxy is a second VM, no need to deal with any Docker networking bullshit or loopback interfaces
dusky plank
not needed ๐คทโโ๏ธ
subtle pasture
Keeps me from needing one HA instance with broken networking. lol
deft pewter
Meh. I'd rather do things 'wrong' and have fewer hosts.
subtle pasture
And is functionally the same as Mono's setup
deft pewter
So yours is broken too?
subtle pasture
I'm not using Docker for the reverse proxy, I'm using a second VM
Where proxying host traffic is expected...
deft pewter
Ok... but if they're functionally the same and mine is wrong... by extension, yours is wrong, no?
subtle pasture
Yours is significantly more prone to failure due to the loopback and the potential for port overlap any time you spin up a container
deft pewter
If misconfigured, sure. That's true of all things.
subtle pasture
And in my setup, host networking is the expected (and only) solution. In yours, it's a work-around for a Docker limitation
deft pewter
You say limitation, I say design feature... but yes, my setup is necessary for that reason.
subtle pasture
"some dockers literally need to bypass the entire Docker network stack because it NATs everything" is more a limitation than a design feature, tbh...
deft pewter
We're going to have to agree to disagree there. The whole point of containers is encapsulation, and if that includes segregating the network, I consider that a good thing.
subtle pasture
You can segregate the network without NAT...
deft pewter
Sure. I could fire up multiple VM's if I wanted ๐
subtle pasture
for example, see IPv6 (and IPv4 pre-exhaustion)
NAT is actually the worst way to handle segregation
deft pewter
I'm the wrong person to be debating this with. I'll readily admit that I'm no networking expert... and I'm also not a member of the dev team at Docker that implemented NAT as their preferred solution ๐คทโโ๏ธ
subtle pasture
Docker is probably using NAT more to make containers portable between networks than to segregate the Docker network
deft pewter
You know plenty about networking, so I'll take your word for it that there are better options. I'm just working with what I've got.
dusky plank
are there any other container solutions doing things different?
subtle pasture
You can grab the entire host and move it to a new network, and all the containers inside keep spinning with the same internal addresses... well... except HomeAssistant. lol
dusky plank
It's like you request a different kernel for every container, that's not how containers are supposed to work
deft pewter
What do you mean? They all need some kind of base platform to run on, right? That's why the default is Alpine - yes, you're grabbing an OS for each image but it's soooo lightweight.
What's the base image size? 25MB? That's nothing.
subtle pasture
@deft pewter I mean, ideally, they all share the host's kernel. Saves an ass-load of resources
That said, there are now virtualization platforms that support kernel sharing, so it's not a unique feature of containers anymore
dusky plank
home assistant is open source, why don't you just build the container for your favorite engine then?
subtle pasture
I usually just spin up HomeAssistantOS in a VM and call it a day
Zero faffing required ๐คทโโ๏ธ
dusky plank
then why even argue that you need multiple hosts?
subtle pasture
Because we were talking about running it in Docker earlier, where your only solutions are "run multiple hosts" or "functionally equivalent to running multiple hosts, but worse in almost every way"
dusky plank
you choose this route
deft pewter
Eh... I was about to say that I respect people choosing what suits them best after weighing up all the available options but the snobbery is getting too much now.
Shitting on people for choosing a method you don't prefer ain't cool.
Anyway... change of topic. This is pretty neat: https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/03/egyptologists-translate-the-oldest-known-mummification-manual/
subtle pasture
Not really shitting on it, though... I've got the pros/cons list up and the "run it all through a loopback interface" option is just worse...
deft pewter
Oldest known instructions, proving they were embalming way before we previously thought.
It's amazing they keep finding stuff like this in such great condition. That's not how I imagined a 3500 year old piece of papyrus would look.
subtle pasture
Yeah, it holds up well as long as it doesn't get wet
And Egypt is a rather dry place ๐
deft pewter
Has it always been though? And a lot of the settlements are in the lusher areas.
subtle pasture
Same reason they've been able to pull still-edible chocolate and sugar out of tombs
Doesn't go bad as long as it stays dry
deft pewter
I wouldn't want to be the person testing that it was still edible.
Definitely breaks the 5-second rule too.
subtle pasture
It also needs to be, like 100% cocoa to survive that long. Milk-chocolate does go off over time
So even fresh, it would have basically been bakers chocolate
deft pewter
Yup. Definitely not testing it. I've had 90%+ chocolate before and it was... different. Not going for 100%.
subtle pasture
wanders off to make hot chocolate
deft pewter
I'm so tempted to bake more cookies now ๐
Trying to lose weight and this talk of baking isn't helping.
subtle pasture
I've been taking the "only eat when you're hungry, stop eating when you're not hungry anymore" approach
clever mortar
That works, unless you're never full...
subtle pasture
Seems to be working, though sometimes results in only eating one meal in a day because I'm just not hungry again
deft pewter
I'm always hungry. Or thirsty, I dunno... but I always eat ๐
clever mortar
I inherited the problem from my mother that my "full" signal doesn't really work, so I always feel like I should be eating a bit more
deft pewter
I'm not even huge. I'm just overweight and need to be more conscious of how much I eat.
noble pivot
I've been taking the "only eat when you're hungry, stop eating when you're not h...
Why would you eat when your not hungry ??
deft pewter
I inherited the problem from my mother that my "full" signal doesn't really work...
You setting us up for a 'yo momma' joke? ๐
clever mortar
Chocolate
deft pewter
_Chocolate_
And ice cream... and cake... and pizza... and curries...
clever mortar
subtle pasture
Why would you eat when your not hungry ??
Plenty of people do. Ask them ๐
deft pewter
Why would you eat when your not hungry ??
Most of us have been taught that it's normal to eat 3 square meals a day. It's ingrained into us by now.
winter wren
oh..finally some offtopic around here
noble pivot
I'm usually too into whatever random stuff I am doing and forget to eat.
subtle pasture
It also helps to be able to separate "stomach is empty" hunger from "I actually need sustenance" hunger. Begin on 100% Soylent for a while made the difference between the two HIGHLY apparent
deft pewter
But... Soylent Green is people!
subtle pasture
Because liquid doesn't fill you up like solid food, but I had zero desire to eat anything because I'd had more than enough calories
So you end up in this weird "stomach empty, but already had a 600+ calorie meal, and not hungry" state
deft pewter
Is that a typo? An American meal with only 3-digit calories? ๐
subtle pasture
If you're eating a 2000 calorie diet, every meal should be about 666 calories... generally slightly more for men, and slightly less for women
deft pewter
Indeed. It's shocking when you look at how many calories are in some restaurant/takeout meals.
subtle pasture
I can physically eat a single 1200 calorie meal, but that's gong to be a "I'm probably not gonna eat again until tomorrow" day. ๐คฃ
deft pewter
A few years back, the UK passed legislation that said all menus had to show calories. Even though our portions are typically smaller here than the States, it's not unusual to see a 2000kcal meal ๐ฎ
winter wren
go for mcdonalds meal..sure u can touch 2k on a meal
subtle pasture
Yup, a lot of places here are required to show calories on their menus now too... and it actually resulted in a lot of menu items becoming significantly less popular
deft pewter
go for mcdonalds meal..sure u can touch 2k on a meal
3k in America ๐
winter wren
:))))))
clever mortar
3k in America ๐
That's just for the starter too...
deft pewter
I couldn't do it all the time but we eat out a lot when we're on vacation. I always come back significantly heavier when we've been to the States.
But that's going to places like Denny's or IHOP for breakfast every morning, snacking during the day, and a 2 or 3 course meal in the evening ๐
Mmmmm, IHOP.
winter wren
u visited all beautiful countries and u arrived to usa finally ?
deft pewter
Haha
The States is beautiful in its own way. It's such a varied place.
But we mainly go for Disney ๐
subtle pasture
My usual day is "early lunch at 11:00 AM, followed by dinner at around 7:00 PM"
winter wren
oh no....sshhhttt..u ruined my day :(((( i want also to disney
subtle pasture
I almost never actually eat breakfast, beyond having a cup of coffee ๐คทโโ๏ธ
deft pewter
We would've done Disney in 2020 if it hadn't been for the pandemic. Waiting until 2023 now to do it for my mother in-law's 70th.
deft pewter
I almost never actually eat breakfast, beyond having a cup of coffee ๐คทโโ๏ธ
You're cray. I couldn't function if I didn't eat in the morning.
winter wren
:))) funnyyy....so funny...i canceled flight tickets in february 2020 ๐
deft pewter
Right, back later. Errands to run ๐ฆ
subtle pasture
@deft pewter I don't get hungry until like 11:00, at which point it's basically lunchtime
Still early enough for those amazing Taco Bell breakfast crunchwraps, though ๐ค
winter wren
11 is brunch ๐
subtle pasture
Damn... girlfriend used the last of the hot coco packets...
I could make it from scratch instead, but I don't feel like tempering chocolate at 2:44 AM...
Tea it is, then >_>
noble pivot
02:44 - Thats got to be beer oclock surely !!
lapis cipher
mmm beer
subtle pasture
Beer would put me back to sleep, that's for sure. lol
noble pivot
Your up late/early !!
subtle pasture
Yeah, that's probably my bad. Had a heavy dinner with booze, got sleepy, woke up from the food coma at 1:00 AM
noble pivot
Then deffo beer not tea ๐
subtle pasture
Already drinking the tea. lol
noble pivot
๐ฆ
subtle pasture
Chai tea with milk/honey ๐ฅฐ
noble pivot
Sounds sleepy ๐ค
subtle pasture
The alternative was English Breakfast tea, which is decidedly not sleepy. lol
Or Early Grey, but wasn't feeling citrus right now
noble pivot
Just had one of those (English Breakfast) but its 10:55 for me.
deft pewter
Who came up with the idea to pick a bunch of random weeds and stew them in hot water?
Coffee or bust.
noble pivot
I'd like to say "or beer" but I deffinately had too much on many occasions !!
winter wren
drinking is bad for your liver
subtle pasture
Who came up with the idea to pick a bunch of random weeds and stew them in hot w...
The Chinese, around 2737 BC
noble pivot
And you head !
deft pewter
But who specifically? I want their name so I can find them and ridicule them.
subtle pasture
I mean... aight... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shennong
deft pewter
Mythological... I don't want fairy tales ๐คข
subtle pasture
That's the closest you're getting to a name, I'm afraid. The invention of tea is often attributed to Shennong ^
deft pewter
I do like some of his creations though:
preserving stored seeds by using boiled horse urine
lol...
to have refined the therapeutic understanding of taking pulse measurements
I took your pulse. Do you feel better now?
subtle pasture
I thought you'd be at least a little impressed that there was ANY kind of origin story for this shit. lol
deft pewter
I guess it's a little like Greek/Roman mythology. There's pretty much a god for everything, since you can't just attribute stuff to regular humans.
Or, you know... science
subtle pasture
If you read the article, it does attribute aspects of Shennong to real people
deft pewter
You expect us to read? ๐ฎ
subtle pasture
We're dealing with almost 5000 year old history, at this point, though... the details are hazy
deft pewter
Yeah, I wasn't seriously expecting a name. Brewing plants probably predates all that by a long time anyway.
It's like when people joke about the origin of animal milk...
Who discovered it and what were they doing? ๐
subtle pasture
There you go, this may have been the ACTUAL human person. lol
Thank you Wikipedia for being a bottomless pit of information
subtle pasture
Who discovered it and what were they doing? ๐
Given that humans also nurse their young... not really a huge leap of logic when you see other animals doing the same
deft pewter
Exactly
subtle pasture
Or did you mean "the origin of humans cultivating animal milk"?
Because the discovery of its existence was probably a total non-event. lol
cedar chasm
I'm dead, will have to look for some busy work
hushed basalt
Hit me up with some spicy memes
I need something for works group chat
The more inappropriate the better
deft pewter
Uh, pass. I don't fancy another tap on the shoulder from mods about the code of conduct ๐
Good bait though
lapis cipher
I had an excellent one coming up but had to back up due to above reason ๐
hushed basalt
Weak
deft pewter
I didn't implement the 'no fun allowed' policy ๐คทโโ๏ธ
lapis cipher
people get offended about anything and everything so safest is to just shut up
deft pewter
Yeah, that's why I took a break for a while ๐
lapis cipher
ffs why is there yet another snow storm, its spring already!!1!
deft pewter
You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you canโt please all of the people all of the time
hushed basalt
That house was ยฃ430k in 2004, is ยฃ870k now
That's not a good thing
Although that's nothing by aussie standards
clever mortar
Our last house tripled in value by the time we sold it. This one "only" went up about 40% in 5 years...
Buying a house isn't affordable for anybody who's not already on the property ladder
deft pewter
Buying a house isn't affordable for anybody who's not already on the property la...
People keep saying that and yet people keep getting on the ladder.
We haven't owned for that long ๐คทโโ๏ธ
clever mortar
It's a lot harder...
I bought a three bed house in a reasonable area when I was 24
deft pewter
I tend to find that the ones complaining it's harder are the ones sipping their Starbucks coffees and dining on smashed avo on toast.
clever mortar
Ten years later the house price had risen enough that with all the pay rises we couldn't have afforded to buy it for the current value
deft pewter
Sure... you couldn't have afford that house. There are other houses.
clever mortar
Yeah, smaller, in shittier areas ๐
But, it does indicate that there's a growing separation between what "a house" will sell for, and what people can afford to buy for
deft pewter
I appreciate that it sucks when you see people in their sprawling homes and all you can afford is a semi/terraced... but that's not the same as it being impossible to get onto the ladder.
clever mortar
Well, unless you're in London, and then you're stuffed ๐
deft pewter
Not everyone has to be in London ๐คทโโ๏ธ
clever mortar
This is yet another reason why I wouldn't live in London ๐
deft pewter
Yeah. It'd take a crazy offer to get me to move there. An offer I'm not likely to ever receive.
clever mortar
You want me to give up being 5 minutes walk away from the countryside ... what kind of crazy are you?
hushed basalt
I tend to find that the ones complaining it's harder are the ones sipping their ...
Yawn smashed avo argument
deft pewter
Yawn crying about house prices while frittering away money on needless luxuries
clever mortar
Yeah. It'd take a crazy offer to get me to move there. An offer I'm not likely t...
Give it time... you never know where you'll end up. I sure didn't when I was early in my career, and yet I've received offers to go and work in all sorts of places
hushed basalt
Stamp duty is about $25000, Lenders mortgage insurance can be that again if your LVR isn't 80 or less
And those are sunk costs every time you buy a house
deft pewter
So many young Brits have rental cars and complain they can't get a mortgage. If they didn't want to drive a BMW to impress their mates, they'd have hundreds more per month to save/invest.
hushed basalt
So you can't blame people to not wanting to buy a crappy house they'll outgrow in 2 years
clever mortar
So many young Brits have rental cars and complain they can't get a mortgage. If ...
Yeah, my first car was a shit heap at ยฃ3K, but it still did me for a long long time before we had to replace it
deft pewter
We had a shitty Vauxhall Corsa for a decade because we wanted to put the money into a mortgage.
It's all about priorities. It's not that people aren't being paid enough to afford a house. It's that they want that instant gratification instead of saving for a few years.
clever mortar
Zero to sixty ... some time in the next hour or so... sixty to zero only slightly faster ๐
deft pewter
๐
hushed basalt
For a lot of people houses increase in prices faster than they can save their deposits
And wages have been going downwards for decades
While living expenses are going up.
deft pewter
So the solution is to continue to rent homes and cars because it's futile?
hushed basalt
Rent, insurances, electricity,
Rent houses... As opposed to?
I think you're in a bubble mono. None of this pull yourself up by your bootstraps rubbish please
deft pewter
lol, sure...
I flipped burgers not so long ago. I didn't whine about the property market or other people's actions. I didn't blame a previous generation for screwing it up for me.
clever mortar
Colleague moved from London to Scotland. Same job. Less pay. More take home pay. Was then able to buy a house ๐
hushed basalt
There's no jobs out of the city here
deft pewter
'the city'? Is there only one?
hushed basalt
In this state yes
deft pewter
I live in a city. I do well for myself relative to my income.
hushed basalt
And it's even more expensive over East
deft pewter
Like Tinkerer said, we just choose not to be in London.
hushed basalt
Sydney is more expensive than London
deft pewter
Perhaps your situation is different. Your cities are so far apart and there's not much in between. Makes sense that you can't just go somewhere else and everything gets centralised.
But most countries... you have a choice about living in 'the city' or 'other cities'.
I think for the same value as my current 3-bed house in the suburbs, I could maybe get a broom closet in London shared with 3 other people.
hushed basalt
People on median wages can't affford houses here
A single person on median wage used to
Don't you think that's a problem?
deft pewter
And I accept that I'm earning more than the median income for the UK... but that's only a recent development. I wasn't on much more than minimum wage a few years ago and yet still owned a home.
deft pewter
Don't you think that's a problem?
If they can't afford anything, sure. A lot of the time people are just upset they can't afford their dream home.
Our first home was a 1 bedroom flat in a shitty area ๐คทโโ๏ธ
Got us on the ladder and was cheaper than renting.
hushed basalt
What do you mean by the ladder
deft pewter
The money that was saved by not renting went towards moving again a few years later. And even with the costs associated with the move, we were ahead.
"Getting on to the property ladder" is the process of buying one's first house and holding a place on the volatile property market.
hushed basalt
Sounds like a ponzi scheme to me
deft pewter
It sounds like every housing market I've ever seen ๐คทโโ๏ธ
You gotta save a deposit to even get on at the bottom. A bigger/nicer house is just a higher rung.
Your argument is that the lowest rung is out of each for people, right? You have a property ladder too.
hushed basalt
Houses were turned into speculative investments with tax incentives
deft pewter
Once on the ladder, it doesn't matter if prices go up because you're moving with the ladder. Again, you've confirmed this is the case there as the people that could have bought in with median earnings are safe.
deft pewter
Houses were turned into speculative investments with tax incentives
I don't disagree with this. And I think countries are starting to realise that having all these foreign investors snap up houses and leaving them vacant is really hurting the property market.
hushed basalt
My point is you're calling people whingers for critising the scheme, rather than helping them call out the government policies
Negative gearing and capital gain concessions are two policies which were deliberately created to inflate house values
deft pewter
Meh. It can't all be blamed on policy. Sure, they could (and even should) regulate investments (but how?) but you'll still get people making poor life decisions and blaming other people.
hushed basalt
It's all policy. 100%
deft pewter
So there's zero element of supply and demand? Not a chance it could be that there's a rapidly growing population in many countries and house building isn't keeping up?
The other things don't help... but it's still a free market.
hushed basalt
House prices graph shows problems with Australian economy
Supply and demand, ha, high immigration is government policy too
deft pewter
Anyway, we're talking about two different issues here. One is genuine, and it's that prices are growing quicker than some people can keep up. The other is that people could keep up if they tried but choose not to. I feel for the people that fall into the former - I can't stand those that fall into the latter.
That graph pretty much confirms it's not me in the bubble ๐คทโโ๏ธ Australia's market is screwed up.
You've just shown that most developed nations are just as affordable now as they were in the 80's.
hushed basalt
I've only ever been talking about Australia
deft pewter
And the rest of us weren't ๐คทโโ๏ธ
winter wren
south africa = developed world ? ..... this is a joke
deft pewter
You know I'm a Brit. It was clear that Tinkerer and I were talking about British properties. You still said I'm in a bubble for having views that actually clearly align with the evidence you've just shared ๐คทโโ๏ธ
I even explicitly called out the current culture here, I wasn't vague or general about it: #the-water-cooler message
deft pewter
south africa = developed world ? ..... this is a joke
Mostly-developed? If you ignore their power grid ๐
hushed basalt
And the flame throwers
How much has the first house you bought increased in value
Tinker said his tripled
That doesn't sound like a healthy fair sustainable society to me
deft pewter
The first flat, I think we made about 5-10% on it. Current house is probably up 10% over 5 years, mostly because the market's up with demand for houses in the suburbs (thanks to Corona).
Eh... tripling is rare. That's not at all what our market is like.
Sounds to me like a lucky purchase in an area that went up in demand.
Weirdly, our flat was in an awful area and we just got lucky with someone that was really keen to move ๐
clever mortar
Eh... tripling is rare. That's not at all what our market is like.
I'm just older ๐
hushed basalt
It's even worse if you look at land prices
clever mortar
We bought in the mid 90's, right before things went up sharply
hushed basalt
Houses have stayed fairly stable. It's land values that have increased
deft pewter
Not that much older, surely? Unless the photo I've seen is really old ๐
clever mortar
I apparently look younger than I am... god knows how
hushed basalt
$80k blocks 22 years ago are now $1.2m
I assure you roles earning $80k then aren't earning $1.2m now
deft pewter
I'm not disagreeing with you. Australia seems really messed up. And I don't want to drag us into talking politics in here.
Just saying, it's not like that everywhere. People over here are mostly just making excuses.
Sure, there are people earning minimum wage and struggling to make ends meet... but that's not representative of the entire population.
I also feel like we're getting at each other's throats a little here, so I'm gonna go chill a little. No offense meant.
winter wren
gold label from johnny for mono
cedar chasm
Every time this picture shows up while my chromecast is idling I wet my pants a little
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/toySg2z54RHHPsL2DbOVkTJIfqfndkRz1dDKrWGU6sbLgIsZlS0UN94HuG4duseQlxuC9c59vq9XwaZt97_pJZTOvAFkq7iMfrA9vJygef1LvvJBVxGAgj-zRhCcwwalwkyALnBRHGf9PC81NcaZLxvIiiSRs7fOet-pKm74-vUxSwHXIpz2hSsrmSL4i33TgOGl74keRDT71jx-n8SvfG_0HB959bXLC4Hpz5HDC42l5ZfoX4MktovvKehXsn_CDiWjyxduQ4SQJwjimLG7leY579nLubyoL7ajif-pfR4=s1920-w1920-h1080-fcrop64=1,00001999fffff3c7-k-no-nd-mv
Seals are scary AF
Good thing this channel is tuned to raccoons, rather than those seademons
subtle pasture
We bought in the mid 90's, right before things went up sharply
I grew up in the 90's hearing about credit cards with 3% interest rates, and affordable 3-bedroom houses
That's shit my parents could do, that was already long-gone by the time I could take advantage of any of it
clever mortar
Early 90%s were good. Late 90%s.... I had a colleague who "got lucky" with a mere 16% interest rate on their mortgage, fixed for 5 years
Six month later rates crashed to below 10% ๐คฃ
subtle pasture
wtf ever happened to sane interest rates on credit cards, anyway? My parents do actually have one with a 3% rate that they're going to hold onto until the end of time, probably
Most offers I get in the mail these days are between 30 and 40%
I can take out a loan with a rate better than that. lol
clear ferry
Credit cards were never a big thing here before the 00s tbh
Everyone bought houses they could afford, and most people could get parts of it financed by state
subtle pasture
My credit? Score is high, but that's meaningless because I don't really have any open lines of credit
deft pewter
Does your system work like ours? Better to have lines of credit that you only use infrequently than to not have them at all?
subtle pasture
Pretty much
deft pewter
I have two credit cards, both with fairly generous limits... but I make a small purchase every few months and settle in full.
subtle pasture
In the few instances where I have tried to sign up for a credit card, I've been denied, because my credit score was too "soft"
deft pewter
wtf does that even mean?
subtle pasture
That the score is only high because I don't have credit. There's no history.
It's a blank slate. Lol
deft pewter
Oh. You start out high? I don't know whether we do or not... I've had a credit card for as long as I was able.
subtle pasture
I'm not fussed. I can always take out a loan instead... And use cryptocurrency as the collateral, which is a neat little financial hack
You get to use the money without converting it to fiat. No capital gains tax (because you didn't actually cash out your crypto), and you keep an appreciating asset appreciating.
deft pewter
subtle pasture
Which means you can actually come out ahead on a crypto-backed loan, rather than behind
last dirge
I put everything possible on a credit card and pay it monthly
might switch cards to a cash back card instead of a miles card though
deft pewter
Not doing much travelling now? ๐
lapis cipher
We are offered credit cards in every possible store, i even got one at the airport in like few mins even if i wasn't looking for one.
best part of credit cards is they are in between the seller and buyer and say an airline would go bankrupt the money would come back from the credit company
lapis cipher
Dunno if there are some local credit companies at different countries, mine has been Visa and Mastercard via my bank. Just by paying with a certain card i get fly-points for each spent euro and visiting our dear Brits once or twice per year wouldn't cost much anything
For comparison the interest on one card seems to be 7,974%, no idea if that's much or not but as Brian i tend to pay the bill before it gets to the credit side
deft pewter
That's pretty low. Even the 'cheap' card I took out years ago has crept up into the 20's.
noble pivot
I put about 95% of everything I spend on the credit card. Rate is something round the low 20s.
But I do pay the bill in full when it arrives. Like the fact its money I am not having taken from by current account and also get extra protection if a company goes bust or miss-sold you something.
subtle pasture
Yeah, that's one of the only reasons I want one. They don't really make it easy to get one if you've never had one, though
deft pewter
Are there not 'entry level' cards you can get, even if the rates are worse?
subtle pasture
There are secure cards
noble pivot
And the rate is not important if you are paying it of anyway.
subtle pasture
With secure cards, you pay the entire balance of the card up-front
deft pewter
Isn't that just a preloaded card?
noble pivot
Whats a "secure" cards and how can you pay the balance "up front"?
subtle pasture
Nope, because otherwise, it's a credit card
deft pewter
But if you're having to give them money first, it's not a line of credit.
That's a really strange arrangement to call a credit card ๐
subtle pasture
Except it is a line of credit, for ALL intents and purposes
But a card with a $1000 limit costs $1000 to open
deft pewter
Except for the part where there's no credit involved.
They're not offering to front money for you. You're fronting money for them.
subtle pasture
Except for the part where there's no credit involved.
Doesn't matter. Still treated as credit
deft pewter
They can call it credit. Still isn't ๐คทโโ๏ธ
deft pewter
It's a preloaded card. Really weird that they track your payments against that for your credit history.
subtle pasture
Except it doesn't act line a preloaded card in any way, side from paying the balance up front. Lol
deft pewter
Which is exactly why it's a preloaded card ๐คทโโ๏ธ
subtle pasture
Preloaded cards don't give you points/miles, and don't build credit, and generally don't charge interest
noble pivot
If they count it to your score thats great but I just dont see whats in it for them from the point of view of building your credit score. You spent money which you already gave them, thats no indication of wheather they could trust you with "real" credit which is surely what your score is all about?
subtle pasture
It's a credit card for all intents and purposes, but it's one that's zero risk to the financial institution
deft pewter
Zero risk because there's no lending involved ๐คฃ
subtle pasture
So anyone can get one, even with zero pre-existimg credit
noble pivot
Exactly, zo how can a zero risk product give anyone confidence that you can be trusted with a product where there is risk?
subtle pasture
It's a credit card you got by using collateral
noble pivot
ie a real credit card
subtle pasture
It's that helps you
noble pivot
Still, if it works to build your credit and get a normal card, who's complaining right!
subtle pasture
Exactly, zo how can a zero risk product give anyone confidence that you can be t...
Because they treat it like a credit card for all intents and purposes. You can still fuck up with a secure card
But they close your account and you lose your collateral
deft pewter
How do you fuck up if you can't spend more than you loaded it with?
subtle pasture
You don't pay the interest?
deft pewter
It'd take some effort to screw up badly enough that your accumulated interest outweighs your collateral.
I guess there are people like that out there ๐
deft pewter
We're not. We just find it odd.
subtle pasture
I'm just telling you that secure cards are a thing that you can use to build credit. There's no obligation for them to make any sense to you beyond that fact.
noble pivot
Hang on I think I get it now. The money you gave them to "opening" is just colateral in case you dont pay the bill and does not go towards what you spend?
deft pewter
Here, a 'starter' credit card would be something with a really low limit and really high interest rate. The interest is the lender's protection - they make enough money from the people in good standing that they don't care about the debts they can't collect.
subtle pasture
Starter card that's super easy to fuck up because of the high interest rate? Lovely...
"whoops, you missed a single payment, allow us to fuck you up with interest beyond all reason"
deft pewter
Harder to fuck up with the lower limit 
Nah... even at 30% APR, borrowing a few hundred ain't gonna hurt.
And if someone's still irresponsible enough to skip payments, they deserve the debt ๐คทโโ๏ธ
subtle pasture
Nah... even at 30% APR, borrowing a few hundred ain't gonna hurt.
You miss the study where the average American household could not come up with the money for an unexpected $400 expense?
deft pewter
Buying something on credit that you couldn't afford to pay cash for just means you couldn't afford it in the first place.
noble pivot
Starter card that's super easy to fuck up because of the high interest rate? Lov...
On the other hand you dont need to have the money already to get "credit". For monst people they need creadit because they dont have the money, if they did they would just spend that in the first place.
subtle pasture
On the other hand you dont need to have the money already to get "credit". For m...
Credit when you don't have money sounds like a recipe for disaster and debt...
deft pewter
And yet people still go on shopping sprees for things they don't need with money they don't have.
noble pivot
But that exactly what credit is!
lapis cipher
saving can be hard, paying the bill is a must so one could think it as enforced saving-after ๐
noble pivot
Saving "after the event" is even harder!!
deft pewter
As soon as you're paying interest, it's not saving ๐
subtle pasture
But that exactly what credit is!
Sounds like gambling if you don't know for sure if you can make the next payment
noble pivot
Servicing the debt is differnt to needing credit in the first place.
I had to use credit to buy my house cos I didnt have the cash but I can servie the debt just fine.
deft pewter
Well yes... mortgages are a little different to buying a bunch of clothes on a credit card.
noble pivot
thats true
subtle pasture
Yeah, still rubs me the wrong way that the interest on that house will add tens of thousands of dollars (or more) to the final cost.
It's expensive not having cash up front...
noble pivot
Well thats true but I look at it as mostly paying to my own pocket. If I was renting for what the interest is costing me I would have a very small house.
deft pewter
Rent money is just burnt money. At least you get something for your mortgage payments.
subtle pasture
This assumes you got a reasonable interest rate. Lol
lapis cipher
Exactly that. The feeling is also whole different when its "yours" even if bank would own 99% of it still. Another way of thinking this is, you rented a house from the bank BUT you can state your rent yourself (well, negotiate with the bank but usually they are flexible)
subtle pasture
Rent money is just burnt money. At least you get something for your mortgage pay...
This is true. It makes more sense to pay into a mortgage if the alternative is to pay rent
deft pewter
Well for the vast majority of people, the only two options are renting or mortgaging. Not many are born into the kinda of money that gets you a house in cash.
subtle pasture
Well, unless there's a disaster or something that trashes the place... Then it's not your problem. Lol
deft pewter
I know some countries have a culture of renting for life but that's strange.
subtle pasture
In mean, if you don't want the liability of ownership...
I could see it
Pay a service fee for the whole thing to be someone else's problem. That said, there are other economic factors that would need to align for this to make sense
deft pewter
I think it's more common where you get a reasonable state pension and don't have to rush to pay off your mortgage before you retire.
UK state pension is lame... ๐
The full basic State Pension is ยฃ134.25 per week.
noble pivot
Ohhhhh, dont spend it all at once will you !!
subtle pasture
I suppose the other situation where rent makes sense is if it's literally impossible to pay off the house...
Then it's all liability
lapis cipher
hope its paid each friday just in time for the pub tour ๐
deft pewter
I suppose the other situation where rent makes sense is if it's literally imposs...
I was about to say that's stupid but then I remembered there's a whole load of people here with 'interest-only mortgages'. They get to retirement age and realise they don't own a thing.
noble pivot
Then it's all liability
Unless it apreciated in the mean time, leaving you better off overall.
subtle pasture
Yup, my parents are in that EXACT situation right now. They purchased a home with an interest only mortgage, where the terms changed automatically after 5 years...
They're now hopelessly upside down on what was only a $350,000 home
noble pivot
Its fair to say, lots of options and diff things suit diff people.
Cant remember what those interest only things were called
subtle pasture
My dad's income basically had to go up faster than the interest rate to make any progress on the loan
And the stupid boomer refused to declare bankruptcy to fix it...
noble pivot
They came with some kind of investment plan that was MEANT to pay of the debt at the end.
deft pewter
Oh, the ones here didn't. People went into them knowing that they wouldn't own a single brick... ๐คฆโโ๏ธ
I'll save money before the end to pay it off
Yeah, right
subtle pasture
If he'd declared bankruptcy a decade ago, he'd be so much richer now... As-is, he's still paying into the money pit
He could have trashed AND recovered his credit by now. Lol
I might take renting over... That...
subtle pasture
Oh, the ones here didn't. People went into them knowing that they wouldn't own a...
Or they intended to flip the homes before shit hit the fan
Sell quick enough and it's not a problem
Until the housing bubble bursts, and leaves you holding the check
deft pewter
Nah. Like I said, this is people hitting retirement age after doing nothing about it for 30 years.
30 years of burying theirs heads in the sand...
cedar chasm
the sand is warm and comfy
deft pewter
And then, of course, it's someone else's responsibility to make sure they have a roof over their heads when the bank repossess the house they didn't pay for.
subtle pasture
Oof
deft pewter
I have mixed feelings about welfare. There should always be a safety net... but people shouldn't be allowed to make bad decisions their entire lives and then count on taxpayers bailing them out.
noble pivot
I have mixed feelings about welfare. There should always be a safety net... but ...
Oh if only there were an easy answer the THAT one !!
deft pewter
Is there?
cedar chasm
Well, keeping them off the streets stops them from joining up with other malcontents
deft pewter
Yes, the 60+ year old malcontents ๐
cedar chasm
I wouldn't want to meet them in an alley
noble pivot
And who is judging what a "bad decision" is though I think I prob agree with you
subtle pasture
Yeah, providing a minimum standard of living is actually a good thing for everyone... Even if that means providing food and housing to lifelong fuckups
deft pewter
You don't think it feels bad to know that you're paying more taxes and social security than necessary just because someone else wants to live on welfare?
cedar chasm
Nahh
subtle pasture
Id rather they be on welfare than be on the street, or turning to crime
deft pewter
The last year has shown just how much support is needed when stuff genuinely hits the fan, and that was no-one's fault.
When it's someone's own fault? Meh.
noble pivot
You don't think it feels bad to know that you're paying more taxes and social se...
If it means they are not robbing your house or stealing from you kids in the street i'm ok with that !!
subtle pasture
This ^
cedar chasm
Well, until we all grow the stomach for a proper soylent green program, we'll just have to make do
subtle pasture
If their basic human needs are meet, it benefits EVERYONE around them
lapis cipher
That is a "problem" of welfare states, the opposite would be that you pay for everything yourself, starting with education and healthcare and that'll end bad for many
deft pewter
Just how basic are we talking? We have a whole lot of people in housing paid for by the state... and it's never enough for them. A lot of them still turn to crime ๐คทโโ๏ธ
subtle pasture
If their basic needs aren't met and they have to rob store to avoid starving, and they go to prison, our tax dollars pay for them ANYWAY
cedar chasm
Not to mention: when there is no welfare state, those that step in to fill the void could be a lot worse than a bloated civil sector
subtle pasture
So if that's the alternative, YES, allow them welfare!
deft pewter
That is a "problem" of welfare states, the opposite would be that you pay for ev...
This is where I'm for state-supported programs. Everyone should get healthcare and education for free. But those too lazy to work? I think we're too soft on them.
You can literally go your whole life in the UK without working a single day and still have someone pay all your bills.
subtle pasture
Except you don't just catch those who are "too lazy to work" when you cast that net
deft pewter
Yeah, it's hard to distinguish
They changed the rules for who's eligible for disability benefits a while back. A lot of people that were previously eligible missed out... on the other hand, a lot of people who were eligible probably could've worked all along.
My mum was eligible under the old rules. There was nothing wrong with her that would've prevented her working, she just wanted an easy ride.
And yes, I judge her harshly for that. She wasn't a great role model.
clever mortar
Yeah, I know folks who were on disability and shouldn't have been, and others who should have been, but weren't (typically because they missed a single threshold somewhere)
deft pewter
It's hard to get right ๐คทโโ๏ธ 'invisible' disabilities didn't get much attention until recent years. No-one cared about mental health.
clever mortar
I think it's impossible to get "right" without enabling folks to abuse it
subtle pasture
The entire ADA could use an overhaul... I was able to get a handicap placard for anxiety
clever mortar
If you enable enough flexibility to allow everybody who should then folks will game it. If you make it rigid then folks miss out
cedar chasm
Smother them all with benefits and let dog sort them out
clever mortar
Trouble is, with things that come and go, and "invisible" disabilities, measuring those both objectively and compassionately .... not gonna work
I had a friend with a condition that'd come and go. On most days they were 100% fit and healthy, and then it'd strike and they'd be barely able to do anything. That'd last for any length of time - a few hours to a few months - and then it'd be gone for an unknown amount of time
It took them years to be sensibly assessed
subtle pasture
Smother them all with benefits and let dog sort them out
Or install a universal basic income ๐
cedar chasm
Or install a universal basic income ๐
I'd be very interested to see if that actually happens!
I'm sort of an automation dystopian, so I think maybe it has to
or I refer you back to Soylent Green
subtle pasture
Yup... Same
I absolutely see the next jobs crisis being "we automated so many jobs away that finding employment is literally impossible for many"
noble pivot
Rushes of to become an "automator"