'Victims slow down all nearby enemies when they die' Affix - move it to Major affixes , or nerf hard

[undone portal]

https://imgur.com/a/nanN5H4 - range showcase
TLDR:
Option A(preferred) - move affix to Major pool, with same weight as +40% damage
Option B - nerf aoe, so that has 50% more radius higher than the one from the Freeze on kill affix".

There are some 'overpowered' things in this game - by overpowered, i mean clearly more powerful than the majority of other items/mutations etc. We know what I'm talking about -things like Baseball Bat or Diverse Deck (Foresight specifically). But all those things, if you think they make your game too easy, you can just ignore and not use them.
But this affix, which occurs only on 'Heavy weapon' tag, is sort of forced on you - it has weight of 80 - over 5 times higher than for example '60% damage vs bleeding targets', and if you get it on a weapon, you very drastically make your life easier in first 3/4 of the game in biomes.
This affix has basically a fullscreen aoe slow - you kill one monster, all monsters on the screen suddenly stop posing any threat to you. It is so much better than any other affix in the pool.
Even if we set aside how good this affix is - having this affix on a weapon makes the gameplay different enough (like different parry times), to justify putting it to major affixes.
What i suggest, is either moving it to major affixes pool, with let's say equal chance to '+40% damage' on items with 'heavy weapon' tag. That way, you get it relatively rarely, but the difference in gameplay while having this affix justifies the rarity.

Alternatively nerf it - reduce the aoe, so that the radius is let's say 50% higher than the one from the affix: 'Victims freeze nearby enemies (1.8 seconds) when they die'.
I prefer the first option,** because my main issue with this affix is how it alters the gameplay, and that's main reason i think it should be more rare.**

The only question is, how playing without this affix on survival weapons will affect balance between melee brutality and melee survival.

[sick sequoia]

wtf slow radius is that large??

[undone portal]

probably larger, but i can't see more cause its out of the screen

0:16, situation from screenshot

[sick sequoia]

I swear it's usually smaller

[undone portal]

all i know is, having or not having this affix on a weapon in a biome is night and day

[crude roost]

I wasn't aware of it being that large but since it is it should be nerfed

[sick sequoia]

im pretty sure it's usually a viewable circle

[undone portal]

I think you talk about the aoe freeze on kill affix

[sick sequoia]

no

[stray breach]

It's a game changer affix for slow survival.

I would honestly only reduce the range but not change it into a Major Affix

[undone portal]

even if it wasnt so good, the gameplay with or without the affix is very different. That alone should make moving the affix to Major pool justified

parry and roll timings etc

[sick sequoia]

just checked and yeah its just screenwide wth

I swear i remember it being a huge circle

[zealous ridge]

it is a circle it just goes off screen most of the time

tbh idk if I want to upvote this because it seems vehemently hateful and very long winded, plus just reducing the chance of occurrence would be a pretty bad nerf. I think we can all agree the aoe is too large...you really could have just said "this affix causes virtually the entire screen to be slowed when activated, having a much larger area of effect than every other on death affix. This makes it far too useful and generally too strong, so I propose its range be nerfed significantly to move it closer in line to other affixes when it comes to power."

[undone portal]

I prefer decreasing occurence, just because the affix makes the gameplay different, so it should imo be much rarer

[zealous ridge]

that makes zero sense

[undone portal]

How so

[zealous ridge]

how does making gameplay different necessitate rarity

a lot of things in this game make gameplay different

many are common, many rare

it's not a causal relationship

[undone portal]

Isn't it obvious? If the affix 'drastically' alters the gameplay, the affix is justified to be unique. And unique is usually something rare

[zealous ridge]

since when?

assault shield is a pretty unique shield, it's not rarer than other shields

[undone portal]

But you aren't forced to use it, unlike this affix which is forced on you in half of rerolls

[zealous ridge]

so is it too strong or do you not want it

[undone portal]

Both. I don't like playing vs enemies that are permanently slowed and unable to act. And to avoid this situation, i have to skip half of weapons/rerolls i am offered because they have this affix

[stray breach]

Arrow affixes are also forced onto you quite often, but they are somewhat balanced

[zealous ridge]

ok, sure. reduce the weight to be equal to the other on death affixes, then. but making it starred is too much

and that doesn't actually make it less op, it makes it the same amount of op slightly less often

[stray breach]

Now this is the point where you should take a step back and reconsider your suggestion. Is it something that would affect most players?

A starred affix would dilute the pool even more, making other stuff rarer. Lower weight would be balanced as long as it's not lowered too much. Smaller AoE won't have a huge impact because will you really reach the enemies on the edge during the time they are slowed?

[undone portal]

I would agree with moving it to major ones, and having same occurence as +40% damage

[sick sequoia]

I wouldn't mind either way

[undone portal]

ok i edited suggestion so occurence is same as +40% dmg from major ones

[cyan hatch]

is it really even strong enough to justify a nerf at all

when i get it on a weapon i more just find that it makes the game play differently rather than being easier

the best use i get out of it besides slowdown damage self synergy is just helping those slower weapons get to later stages of their combo

[sick sequoia]

slow slows so it's strong

[zealous ridge]

it really is strong

but not as strong as this suggestion makes it out to be

[undone portal]

That is why advocate for making it more rare without even nerfing it, cause as you just said, affix alters the gameplay in a significant way

The idea of unique modifiers / special versions of items (basically legendaries) with low rarity, that change the way how you play is very popular in roguelikes and arpgs, i don't know why with this particular modifier it should be different

[latent lion]

Just nerf the radius a little, it isn’t game breaking and it isn’t on par with other major affixes

[zealous ridge]

yes

[sick sequoia]

id argue it is on par with major afixes

[zealous ridge]

if you're counting, like, movement speed on crit

[undone portal]

Its not on par with other major affixes? Name one that is better than this

its not on par with other major affixes, cause it is better than any major affix, sure i would agree with that

[sick sequoia]

yeah

[latent lion]

• +15% damage
• +40% damage
• leech
• double damage
• quad damage
• bleed on hit
• poison cloud on hit
• bleed propagation
• stun on hit
• fire bullet
• poison bullet
• shots pierce all enemies
• oil and fire on use
• run speed on kill
• global shield on use
• counter attack

Just to name a few

[undone portal]

yes, better than all of those and its not even close

[latent lion]

Nope

[undone portal]

yes

[latent lion]

How tf is 1.5 seconds of slow better than stunning enemies you hit?

[undone portal]

Its not even a point of discussion here wether the affix is too strong, we all agree it is, except you. It's the way of dealing with the problem

[latent lion]

Yea

Nerf the radius

That’s all you have to do

[sick sequoia]

either one works

[latent lion]

It is, even in its current state, worse then 3/4 of the major affixes

[undone portal]

Sorry, if you think that +40% damage affix is somehow in a different league of power than slowing whole screen of enemies to the point they stop posing any significant threat to you in biomes, then i don't know what to tell you

[undone portal]

i prefer gameplay altering affixes to be rare, cause i dont wanna see it in half of my rerolls

[latent lion]

You do realize that the affix is only on heavy weapons right? By the time you’ve reached the enemy and started your attack windup the slow is already over.

Also, it does jack shit against bosses because there are no enemies to be killed

[undone portal]

did you play 5bc?

[latent lion]

I did

I beat it

[undone portal]

so what is that question

i know that its only on heavy weapon tag

i know what are the main dangers in 5bc

and fullscreen slow every time you kill any enemy is both making your life so incredibly easier and changes the way how you play

[latent lion]

How does it change the way you play? You still just walk up to the enemy and smack them, now you just have to worry a little less about them smacking you back

[undone portal]

and i dont mind super good affixes, could even say overpowered, being in this game, i just don't like the fact that it is being offered me and forced in half of the rerolls

[undone portal]

different parry and roll timings, completely different approach to biome clear, where being super aggresive with slow weapons pays off really well instead of planning your every attack

[latent lion]

Ok, but actually making the affix balanced is better than making it rare because it feels like shit when the only reason you won a run is due to luck in a very skill based game

[undone portal]

if you got colorless foresight according to this, you also won due to luck. If you got legendary flint you also won due to luck. If you got like 10 other things that are really really good you also won due to luck

i am fine super good things being rare

and its not like this game is pure skill either, its not chess or starcraft

i will be fine with just nerfing the affix, i just don't like aoe slow being a really high weight affix, cause slow is game alterning mechanic mainly due to roll and parry timings

[latent lion]

Ik, but those are items, where you can control the rng with custom mode, and I am fine with some amount of rng, it’s a damn rougelike, it’s just that you are suggesting that instead of actually balancing an affix, we just make it rare as kind of a bandaid fix

[undone portal]

i presented two options, i'm fine with second one, and its debatable what kind of nerf should be done. It's just, moving affix to Major ones costs less development time and is imo better in general as i was trying to prove

[latent lion]

Maybe nerf the radius and decrease the weight without making it a major affix, as it is part of the series of “nearby enemies suffer X status on kill” affixes which are all minor affixes and it wouldn’t make a lot of sense if just the slow version of the affix was moved to major affixes

[undone portal]

honestly im fine with whatever nerf that leads to less rarity and less power level

[sharp basin]

just talking about parry times, can enemy sounds be slowed down too to help all maboys who parry using audio queues ???

okay that is unrelated but still

[undone portal]

i don't know, i didn't pay close attention to this

90 comments, 2 votes

lol

only issue is that slow weapons depend very much on this affix, just like speedycookie said, so it will make them much les viable

[stray breach]

It's a game changer affix for slow survival.

I would honestly only reduce the range but not change it into a Major Affix

Though after thinking about it, turning it into a major affix would nerf survival quite a bit but it would make sense as slow on kill is quite an impactful affix