SMG balance shuffle

[wind shore]

OUTDATED, REFER TO: #1432707758548975658 message

The Issue

VEK SMG and Sub-Machine Gun have both been around a while and their differences are fairly miniscule when it comes down to it. AK SMG complicates things more and because of its range it is making people think it is possibly the best weapon in the game and complain it is OP... whether or not that is actually true. What matters is that there is a perception there and the weapons are not exactly clear. The gap between VEK SMG and AK SMG in particular could be increased to help emphasize more differences in the family.

Solution

-# If there is a potential issue here, it is that I want to bring VSS back up to its old 69 damage and this may make it too powerful, maybe not. It has the bullet speed which makes it play different, and it's not so easy to use hipfire like the SMGs are. For these reasons, I still believe in a direct 1v1 that the SMGs would win and so I feel like the VSS is safe to buff in damage.

• Slightly nerf **AK SMG ** fire rate so that the tied time to kill of the VEK SMG and AK SMG is removed, making the CQC area a clearer difference. The AK SMG is going to have range, so hopefully the difference will be felt enough. I think this would keep a good balance and really help player perception.
• To make room for MP7, change ranges a bit on older models and make **MP7 **a higher capacity powerhouse with limited range. This would still beat AK SMG within 30m.
• Make VSS better at range. Reduce damage drop and increase damage to old values.

The above data is ROUNDED (e.g. 30m = 30.48m).
The above image shows a pale red if there is a nerf, and a pale green if there is a buff.

Graphs below use the proposed values. They will cut off if the values are extreme (such as the head shots needed for the SMG and VEK SMG so you will need to refer to the above table if you want to see the ending values.

The **MP7 ** is set to use the standard 40 mag available to it (out of the 20, 30, and 40-round options). It is a proposal for how it could work within the environment set out.
-# As an example, it is not perfect on its actual balance (its minimum damage is a bit questionable, but it should be dropping at roughly the rate it is at right now... just ideally not being THAT good past 100m even if it's not amazing past 100m. I feel like the AK SMG should be the limit of the range the SMG family has for damage that far out).

Here is damage (y axis) dropping over distance in metres (x axis):

Here are the number of head shots (y axis) needed. It is flipped so that more shots are lower (lower line = worse) to make it easier to see good vs bad.

Here is the time to kill in seconds (y axis) if you only shoot head shots and do not miss:

Note that the MP7 is the best within 15m (almost sidearm area) and then falls off to be worse than VEK until at 29m into 30m it drops below the AK SMG. From 50m out the AK SMG is the clear winner of all the SMGs like it is currently at the range, while the MP7 has just kept dropping harshly. It is designed to be higher capacity and fast with a low recoil, but does not handle range as well as its 'MP5/MP5k' or whatever SMG brother.
-# See earlier note about its minimum damage being on the high side.

VSS maintains a good range that approaches on AK Rifle like it used to but it now has a lower minimum damage and isn't a water pistol at longer ranges. 10 head shots isn't too slow but nothing to drool over. This could make it more fun to use as a "sniper" as it kind of is meant to be, but isn't so powerful as to actually pose an issue to the AR family of weapons or beyond.

 
Suggestion over, discussion below
 

Technical, yes

hope the graphs help visualise

TTK will be the most-important one for people to understand which weapon kills fastest

[pale sleet]

Is there a known adjustment factor for the VSS's TTK given the atypical bullet speed?

[wind shore]

that is a can of worms that also introduces travel time for the other weapons

this is just a perfect scenario

where you just take the smallest and simplest time

the time between bullets hitting

bullet 1 to bullet 2 to bullet 3 is the same

travel time only impacts clicking until bullet 1 makes impact

[tawdry dagger]

I like the AKS having slower rpm but with vehicle damage.

Just from a "realism" front.

It's nice when things make sense, as rare as that is

Why is the .30-06 LMG outclassed by a cheeki breeki

Wait so @wind shore is the MP7 gunna be a "VEK on steroids"?

Am I right on that? Absolutely jacked close range TTK but god awful drop?

[dim fossil]

I want this mainly bc it gives the vek some place in the SMG niche

[unreal wolf]

Sort of unthrilled by this. You want to nerf the SMG significantly BC some ppl think the AKSMG is OP? Not sure it makes sense based on rounds/ energy. Will certainly effect the utility of an SMG as a main line BR, skull... Part of the problem with this analysis is assumes the accuracy is the same. So the VEK is now better than SMG at longer ranges? I think you should be buffing the close range of the VEK to compete with the MP7. And how do you propose to rebalance vehicle damage within the class. Existing is a bit whacked with SMG being the only thing that won't damage any vehicle, and the VEK will.... Flip that at a minimum.

[wind shore]

• Didn't say I wanted to nerf the SMG because of the AK SMG
• The main nerf here is to the AK SMG
• SMG gets a buff on initial range and a nerf on far range to balance out the buff
  • Idea is to keep it focused closer, but have it stand out more in range on the close end so it's the "best SMG" for CQC
• VEK SMG is meant to be like a SCAR equivalent. It is MEANT to be slightly worse than the SMG but has more rounds and shoots faster with less recoil, making it more flexible. If you miss a shot, the VEK SMG is going to clean up faster.

Overall the SMG is actually buffed because you are using it in closer ranges to begin with. All I suggested to it was to delay when it starts and make it drop off steeper from the extended point.

So the VEK is now better than SMG at longer ranges?

No. The end points of the weapons have not changed. As seen here in the original message, you need many more head shots with the VEK SMG. Because it takes so long, they are not visible on the graph.

I cut off at that point, because it's a focus on the higher points where CQC happens and a little beyond.

If I extend it to include the bottom, they come alllllll the way down here and the SMG is still better if for some reason it really mattered which of the two were faster at 100m or whatever you use it at, cause both of them are needing more than a whole magazine.

Honestly wouldn't care which one is better at that point, but the SMG is still best THAT far out.
Unless you want to get pedantic on "oh but it's better at 80m" then... I mean be my guest, be the guy that knows the SMG meta so well that you use the VEK SMG at 80m where it's taking much longer to kill enemies than if you'd just swapped to a different weapon by this point. People can play how they want and if they find fun in enjoying a brief window where the VEK SMG has an advantage only against the SMG and ignores the other SMG weapons or other weapon categories, then hey all the more power to them.

...how do you propose to rebalance vehicle damage within the class.
I don't

That is a can of worms I wish to address for all weapons separately.

[wind shore]

Uhhh, it's like a SUPER CQC SMG option that is the best right in their face, but also you're in shotgun range so it's some competition there...
BUT then it is still useful within basically 30m above the AK SMG so that it keeps the idea of AK SMG is only better with range... but of course no longer is as good as the SMG or VEK SMG and then just starts to quickly fall off and be worse and worse.

It makes it competitive, because it's still useful within the same rough ranges, but it just does not like range so much and falls off fast. So it's good, but really limited.

An aggressive playstyle alternative to a more flexible SMG. This is also part of why I suggested buffing the SMG range to go a bit longer so it can hold more against the MP7.

[tawdry dagger]

AP moment

[wind shore]

kind of, but the Auto Pistol needs 4 head shots and is 10 RPS

which makes it worse than all main weapon SMGs

but stupidly can tie with the VSS currently at that range

but that's for what, 6m?

maybe 8m to drop enough to be 5 head shots

[tawdry dagger]

Can we get VSS with no DMG falloff please 🙏

Totally not OP

Very DMR. Very 9x39

[lime sonnet]

Perhaps the MP7 could be released soon. 🤔

[tawdry dagger]

Anyways what are we betting?

[lime sonnet]

As to the actual suggestion I'm impartial. I like some aspects and dislike others.

[tawdry dagger]

Another incredibly powerful, controversial, possibly a bit OP SMG?

Or "meh"?

[dim fossil]

If the trend of “releasing a gun every other update” continues then its very possible we may see the a new gun this update

[tawdry dagger]

Has been a year since the last one lol

AKS 2023

[pale sleet]

G3

[tawdry dagger]

. . .

How did I forget that

Genuinely

Christ its over for me

[unreal wolf]

Yep shreds at close range, beats VSS at long distances.... SMH - Is there gonna be a homing variant of it?

[tawdry dagger]

Beats the VSS????

Dear god

[unreal wolf]

My grump with the suggestion is no BR lens on light vs. rifle ammo

[tawdry dagger]

Like.... Do they not realize its literally a DMR lol

I know WB is a far cry from realism and real world counterparts... But cmon...

[tawdry dagger]

I see the bets are on the former

[unreal wolf]

hmm think its gonna be a: cut-down M60, Titanium-build, electric-gyro-stabilized, AI-assisted, backpack-fed, "Light" Personal Defense System

[tawdry dagger]

Nah USAS-12 with slugs.

The auto shotty niche shall be fulfilled

Actually forget that it'll be one of these

[jovial vector]

solution: give vss max bullet velocity