#Escort gamemode rework

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

covert shell
#

Checkpoints

There will be some checkpoints in the path of the tank that is being escorted. The team will be given a certain time limit to push the tank to the first checkpoint.

If they fail to do so and the time runs out, the position of the two teams will be swapped (the team trying to stop the escort will no escort with the same conditions applied)

If they manage to reach the checkpoint, extra time will be added which they can use to further push the tank to the next checkpoint and so on and so forth until they reach the end

Tank retreating

If the tank is not escorted and left alone for too long, the tank starts retracing it's path to the last checkpoint.

This ensures that when the teams are not balanced, the game will end quicker just like the tdm (when there is a 25 kill difference between teams)

glass meteor
#

time is shorter for existing rounds, so if it's unbalanced the rounds are already shorter

#

For example if Team 1 takes 4 minutes and 20 seconds to escort their tank then the timer will have 3:40 to subtract from team 2's time of 8:08. This will result in Team 2 having 4:28 on the clock to escort their tank.

covert shell
#

I think my suggested rework ensures fairness for both the teams and also encourages people to push the tank

glass meteor
#

and team 2 took 8, instead of being given 4mins

#

wouldn't that just mean that team 1 still won?

#

they took it to the end sooner

#

_ _
team 1 sets the standard

#

they either get it to the end soon, meaning their team is a lot better

#

or they take most of the time, if not all the time

#

team 2 then follows up and has to be playing to the standard which team 1 set

#

if team 1 was better, team 2 will fail to push it to the end in the same time

#

round ends, unbalanced round over

covert shell
glass meteor
#

if they are fairly equal, then it's a matter of if the team can be slightly faster to make it to the end, OR to push further than team 1 did because they couldn't make it in the 8mins given

#

the distance is the same

#

there is no tie

#

it's time-based

#

if neither team can make it to the end, it gets based on distance

covert shell
#

But if team 1 takes the full time

#

And gets it to let's say 800

glass meteor
#

full time means round would fail, they would have to be a few metres short

covert shell
#

Team two should get the same time

#

To complete 800

covert shell
#

Gets it done under 8 minutes

#

And then the second team has to just try to get that done in the same time as team 1

#

The method I suggested is essentially better

glass meteor
#

Round Time

Vehicle Escort is a unique game mode that has two halves. Rather than have one team set as attackers or defenders—the approach taken by other game modes— Vehicle Escort allows each team to challenge the other with both roles. Part one will assign one team as the escorting (or attacking) side, while the opposing team plays as defenders that must stop the tank from being escorted into their territory. Upon conclusion of the first half, team roles will be swapped and the second part commenced. Each half of the match is 8 minutes long with a brief half-time to prepare players for the changing role.

Part one will start with 8:00 on the clock. At the conclusion of part one, a 10 second window is given to communicate to the players that teams are about to swap. Part two will then begin with 8:08 on the clock. This gives a maximum match time of 16 minutes and 20 seconds for a full round of Vehicle Escort. This time may be reduced if a team is successful in escorting their tank to the end. If the attackers in part one are successful then their remaining time is subtracted from the next team's total time. This forces the second attacking team to escort the tank in the same time or faster if they wish to win. If the attackers in part two are successful before the timer ends, the round will be ended at that point. Team 2 will always win if they escort the tank to the end. This is either because they escorted the tank further than Team 1 or because they escorted their tank to the end faster than the first team did.

For example if Team 1 takes 4 minutes and 20 seconds to escort their tank then the timer will have 3:40 to subtract from team 2's time of 8:08. This will result in Team 2 having 4:28 on the clock to escort their tank.

covert shell
#

There is no question about fairness as both get the same treatment

#

Plus, the players are encouraged to push the tank

glass meteor
#

I was just here to explain how the existing mode already accounts for when teams are not so balanced

#

it's not a full 16min round with no speed up like TDM

#

on the suggestion itself, I can talk about it if you'd like

#

I just came to mention that part of the reasoning for your suggestion is based on something that already existed

#

in my opinion, I would not use this method of round

#

tank retreating to a checkpoint is campable

#

it takes time for a team to make a stance against the enemies

#

if the tank is just constantly reset to a checkpoint, there is zero progress for the team

#

when the tank stays in place, there is always progress even if that is only by 5m

#

that adds up

#

and by constantly moving, there may be better environment for the pushers to stick their feet in and push

covert shell
#

Very similar to the tank in zdc

glass meteor
#

if a tank is stuck in an area and can never move on, defenders get too high of a boost to just camp the tank in specific spots and the tank never leaves that area

covert shell
#

People play this game mode more like a 16 minute TDM

#

THAT is the problem

glass meteor
covert shell
#

So even if you let the stronger side push the tank first

glass meteor
#

aka you get killed

covert shell
#

They will be busy killing

glass meteor
#

you don't push tank

covert shell
#

Not pushing the tank

glass meteor
#

you respawn, you make way to tank

#

you die

#

tank is not pushed

#

that is not the fault of the player the tank is not pushed

#

that is the face of combat

#

in rougher rounds of vehicle escort, getting to the tank for a safe 5 - 10 seconds of pushing is important to the progress

#

I'm not even sure that vehicle escort would be possible in rougher rounds if the tank started to move backwards

#

because at the end of rounds, you are at the enemy spawn

#

it's the toughest section of the round

#

if the tank falls back as combat happens at the spawn, I highly doubt a team would ever get the tank through the spawn

#

because you're fighting players spawning AT the location, with spawn protection

#

when the tank stays still until pushed again, it keep progress and can be nudged forward bit by bit

#

and is at least possible

covert shell
glass meteor
#

so if a player that is TRYING to get to the tank to push it, is KILLED while moving to the tank

#

it is THAT player's fault the tank is not pushed

#

because they died while making their way over

#

that's not them trying to play TDM

#

that's the regular round experience of defenders stopping players from getting near the tank

covert shell
#

You are seeing it as an individual player

#

I am seeing it as a team

glass meteor
#

people who do not actually play the mode are not too common, and that's a fault with the players

#

they will not play the mode, no matter the mode

#

because they are there to just do TDM no matter the mode

#

this change doesn't stop that

#

and punishes the players who do play

glass meteor
#

you are focused on players who do not play the game by its ruleset

covert shell
#

you are focused on the one or two players that try to push the tank alone

glass meteor
#

there are then of course two things at play:

  • can we discourage and punish players who do not play the game
  • do changes we make punish people who do play
#

I'm focused on a whole team

#

in the toughest, largest matches

#

a full 16 player lobby

#

good luck getting the tank through to the end when the tank falls back

#

and at chokepoints, the defenders get the advantage

#

so enemy spawn and chokpoints the defenders hold an advantage

#

attackers are trying to get the tank through those tough sections

covert shell
glass meteor
#

if the tank falls back, good luck getting past those sections

#

yes

#

very good point

covert shell
#

It's not like implementing this will make moving the tank tough at the end

glass meteor
#

so the bad experience is experienced on both sides

covert shell
#

It already is tough

glass meteor
#

and neither side can make it through

#

correct

#

the change will make it impossible

covert shell
#

Making this change will not change a thing imo

glass meteor
#

the difference is that NOW, the tank stays where it is and will be pushed bit by bit until either time runs out or you make it to the end

covert shell
#

It will still remain tough to move the tank at the end

#

But due to the checkpoint

#

Some progress is secured

glass meteor
#

this change will mean that in a team wipe, the tank is moving back and all progress through tough sections is lost

#

completely resetting a tough section

covert shell
#

The checkpoint may be just at the beginning of those "chokepoints"

glass meteor
#

a checkpoint is not the same as staying where it is

covert shell
#

a checkpoint is securing your progress to a certain level

covert shell
#

A slight push at the timer is reset again

#

Very similar to zdc

#

You will loose progress when

  • you DONT push the tank (playing it like a tdm) --> time ends as a punishment
  • you get absolutely destroyed by the enemies (time ends and the unbalanced game is now shorter)
glass meteor
#

Summary of my views against this:
Tank Retreating

  • Chokepoints and late-game give defenders advantage to stop the tank from making progress; can be for quite some time
  • A tank moving backwards at such points would greatly hurt the attacking side by resetting any and all progress
  • Roughly matched rounds can rely on bumping the tank forward a little bit at a time through tough stretches
  • The end-game stretch near enemy team has defenders spawn on top of the tank and with spawn protection; good luck getting near tank to begin with
  • Complete wipe of any progress back to a checkpoint would result in never making it through to the end
  • Tank NEEDS to save its position so that attackers can slowly bump it forward bit by bit to ever successfully push to end
  • Rounds are likely to end quickly with no hope of winning; OR if timer is reset when touching tank like ZDC, full 16min rounds

Players that don't push being punished

  • Players that don't push and aim to play TDM in modes like Vehicle/Missile/Bomb don't follow a ruleset, they are an oddity and not the typical player
  • These players are not going to play the round even if the changes proposed are made, they aren't interested in the mode
  • These players accompany others, they are not the only players so the rest of the team is still pushing even if those playing TDM are not helping; timer may not concern them because round carries on without their input (typically hurting balance though)
  • Pure TDM teams means round would end naturally in current state and move on with little to worry about
  • The proposed changes appear to impact these players who are not sportsmanlike very little, while adding things that hurt the regular player (mentioned above)
#

Changes should be made with all players in mind

  • The regular player that isn't good, the good players, and the players who care not for the modes and their rules are all different; focus on one and ignoring the others can result in hurting others
  • With part of the reason of the changes based on unbalanced teams and ending rounds, part of the suggestion appears to be based under the assumption nothing currently exists;
  • Rounds are already shortened to however long it takes teams to escort the tank
  • If part 1 the first team was stronger, the time they took (e.g. 3mins) is the same time given for part 2 (meaning a total of 6mins in this example)
  • If part 2 the first team was much weaker, the full 8mins have passed as the team tried to play and part 2 ends as soon as this stronger team finishes (e.g. 3 mins for a total of 11mins)
  • Where in some very unlikely case every single player of one team is playing TDM, then if they are escorting the defence easily can ignore tank; if they are defending then they are either killing you at the tank like players would when playing normally (so no room for complaints), or they are off somewhere and you can push with ease to win the part currently played
  • All frustration comes from when someone on your OWN team is playing TDM instead of helping, to which the teams are unbalanced and the round ends based on the above examples
#

Alternative idea for what appears to be core concern

  • If core concern is on players that do not play the game according to rules, then change the "feeling of reward" rather than the rules which these players ignore anyway
  • K/D is on display and round results show leaderboard with that in mind, so change the K/D display to something else like "distance pushed" so that while playing these players have no visual cue for their kills and players feel more inclined to push
  • Stats can be removed from the mode, or separated in some form so that people aren't K/D farming in general for stats site appeal or for highest kills per round, etc.

What it boils down to

  • Part of reasoning for suggestion focuses on players who will not play by the rules is somewhat invalid/ignorable; the change will not really impact those players
  • It all falls down then on how it impacts the average player, and the suggested changes appear to worsen the experience by removing all hope of attackers making it to the end, making it a case of "who had their tank slightly in front of the last checkpoint more" and probably a lot of room for tied distances
  • So it doesn't really solve any problem, and it potentially ruins the experience in a game mode for players—all of this pointing me to be quite against this change to Vehicle Escort
covert shell
#

okay ig

#

But I stand by my point

inner scroll
#

pepe_what what are those alternatives

#

Pointing all the fingers at stats is a lazy as excuse for a "broken" mode

#

makes a shooter game
point of the game is to kill others
creates a mode that doesn't focus on killing players
complain that players don't play the mode when the aim is to kill the others
instead of creating a separate mode for TDM (grouping it up in classic is too broad) blame it on stats
remove stats for the mode completely

#

That is not how you should be thinking about the issue. Other games have separate categories for whatever mode their gameplay is. When people click on "Classic", they expect a mode that allows them to kill others. Obviously, they aren't going to follow the objectives for that reason. The mode depends on a voting scheme, sure, but it's not completely one-sided if the vote wins. Some wanted TDM but got vehicle escort but have no intention of leaving the game. For AUS, that is always the case due to the low player count. That's fine. It's not like killing all the enemies and not pushing the tank is detrimental for your team, it's quite the opposite. Make the game flexible for everybody. People play for the win, people play for stats, people play for kills. I guess you can start suspending players for not completing objectives but the player count for the game is low at the moment. Unless you want a dead server every time vehicle escort comes up, don't change it. Don't fix what's not broken.

pale moat
# inner scroll That is not how you should be thinking about the issue. Other games have separat...

It's not like killing all the enemies and not pushing the tank is detrimental for your team, it's quite the opposite. Not actually - since the teams are formed based on some measure of killing skill - you get high powered players doing their own thing running up high kill counts and losing. Poor gaming experience for most others - not exactly how you grow the base. You do not have to be great to win VE, just willing to take 10-15 deaths - remember one of several matches where a high level player ran up 50+kills and lost. I have had one of my better squad mates go 31/3 dropping on me all match no matter where the vehicle and action were - completely ignored the tank and lost. Tad toxic, not great for the user-base.... Finding ways to make the experience good for most should sort of be the goal, if you want WB to thrive a bit.

thorn valve
#

As has been said, VE, Missile Launch and Capture Points should be in a different mode category from the predominant TDM...but player base is probably too small (maybe-as I think TDM servers would not lose too much activity, so it might be more the cost of adding additional servers for another mode). If player base could get up past a critical mass, so many of the game's persistent problems would be easily solved/minimized. Not a constructive comment, but...

inner scroll
# pale moat It's not like killing all the enemies and not pushing the tank is detrimental fo...

Then you aren't doing right because kills ELO is used to matchmake you on your ability to kill. Obviously it doesn't work for modes like vehicle escort so the distribution is going to assume that higher ELO players do their thing to kill and the lower to push the tank. That is why I recommended a complete separation on the mode and use a different matchmaking system for it instead of grouping it up in classic where we get guys like you complaining about people who want to do TDM but had to do vehicle escort. Due to the low player count, this isn't going to work unless you want empty servers (seen in the low activity of AUS).

Continuing on how the mode actually works
This game mode relies on a user getting high kills to protect the tank while the other users who is not as good in killing to push it, hence the ELO system. If you are correct in saying that you can drop 10-15 deaths and still win, then matchmaking should be randomised and player to player interaction isn't important. Let's see how it will go (it wouldn't be good). This is where you question the matchmaking instead of questioning the players who drops high kills but don't push the tank (this is why you don't use ELO for all modes). They are still accomplishing the objective in their own way. If the high kill user has to kill and push the tank, then something is wrong with the matchmaking because ELO and the monte something simulation should've considered it. You need both types of players to win the game. If you play me, you will never see me push the tank yet I win almost every game because I take out all the enemies for my team to push the tank. Whether I cover my teammates from behind or go out in front to clear the way, these are different ways to play the game.

#

It's not as detrimental as you think it does if you play the game right. Of course if you had everybody doing TDM on escort, then it’d be an issue (separate problem to solve). But you are making it sound like one player getting high kills and not pushing the tank is the reason for the team not winning.

pale moat
# inner scroll It's not as detrimental as you think it does if you play the game right. Of cour...

I am just saying that if they engaged in the mode they would have gotten the win, but chose not to. Look, I am not that hot a player, but I do have 15k+ classic wins and do quite well on mission matches - I know how to win those matches and think I am a reasonable source to say "I have gotten my share of wins I should not have because the best players on the other team did not really engage in the mode" Yes killing the enemy is useful, a bit more so on bomb and missile launch than VE (imo). Too often on VE they are chasing kills away from the tank on big maps. I look hard at the lobby before deciding to commit to a VE match. At this point I sort of know if a lobby is worth the effort on VE. i do not mind losing a match if its competitive. Competitive matches are fun- which perhaps I wrongly assume is good for growing the userbase. And it is not that I think someone getting high kills is a problem, just saying it sometime is not particularly helpful to the team - they dominate for an L- makes their day a little better, but pretty disappointing for other teammates. it is one thing if they are creating a choke point, but it often does not go like that. Maybe there is a second server for the EU and NA - not so sure about traffic on Asia classic, I can hardly play on it. Me, I would just like fuller servers. And yep, I can be a bit unpleasant when my team is not supporting getting a Win on a mission match. " So nobody on our team wants a Win?" is a common entry in chat from me on mission matches if I feel like nobody else is interested. Sometimes they pick it up, and sometimes not- then I bail. None of which is great.