Make Tribute roofs accessible with ladders

[spark hull]

I would not recommend this

Part of the fun in tribute is that all of them are accessible without kadders

It's a map for people with good mlvement.

If we add ladders there is not skill required anymore

The game should force people to get better and learn the jumps, rather than make the map easier

[candid berry]

Don't know what happened to original post, but...
Make the rooftop playing surfaces that distinguish Tribute from Cyber Tribute more obviously accessible to newer players and those whose tech lags and makes parkouring difficult by adding ladders to all the places marked by the red arrows.

(ignore this part for voting below) Also, I added the green arrow as a suggestion to make those spawning in the boxed area more difficult to trap in said spawn box.

[candid berry]

I don't disagree with the spirit of what you're saying, but I just kind of think what is the point of having two almost identical maps if most players treat them exactly the same way. The differences should be highlighted and not sort of hidden.

I want this map to be thought about differently, treated differently, to be played differently than the the Cyber version...not just by a small percentage of players, but by everyone.

And there are plenty of maps to learn to jump around and do what you describe (city point, dessert, flooded, pacific, heist, escape).

[tepid sun]

i can't even like this e.t.c XD

[spark hull]

imo, tribute is a higher movement map

and I think it should be this way

[spark hull]

I don't agree with this. The way I learned to jump is by observing the pros. I learned from infy, doki, and popsicle, and I got better. I think in almost all the games, the worse players learn by watching the better ones, We shouldn't cater the map to the worse players, because they will no longer feel the need to improve.

[spark hull]

I dare say, the gunplay in this game is actually garbage. The reason I love the game is because of the movement. I love being able to play the whole map without touching the ground,

and I want other people to experience this as well

I don't want the whole game to be just people climbing ladders

whats the point of the map if all the good spots are just handed to the players for free.

[candid berry]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying about wanting players to learn and improve their movement and parkouring and yet don't agree that this change to this single map would really hinder those things from happening. I nor you nor others would likely use the ladders as it's faster to jump. Others would still see that and could still be motivated to learn.

I just still think Tribute should be more distinct from its evil twin Cyber and that this change would improve the average gameplay on it.

Not to mention, I don't think people not parkouring is always a skill issue. Often it can be a tech issue. It can be very frustrating trying to double jump with bad connection/computer, so it isn't just that people haven't learned to jump up on surfaces, I think many can't access those areas...and given they are fundamental to that map (in contrast to Cyber), I think making them obviously accessible is better than not.

[candid berry]

These aren't "good" spots. They are fundamental to the map. They should be used predominantly. If they aren't being used and are less accessible, the map is worse.

Dessert and city point have much better examples of what I might call "good spots". Plenty of places and paths you can find to give you an edge, but on Tribute these spots are what make that map and should dominate the gameplay.

[spark hull]

They r being used

[spark hull]

They do

It's only the bottom 5 percent that dont

Like even 1550 elo players know to get on top if the green building

The movement to get to these spots make it fun

And ppl need to learn how to earn it

[tepid sun]

That green arrow doesn't make a diff much

I mean switch for conc to jump the wall

[candid berry]

I can't speak to the sample of Tribute lobbies you've played in over time, but based the set I've played in, if I had to guesstimate how many players on average ever climb up to any of those roofs (in any given match), I would say it's probably well below 50% and likely below 25%. I play plenty of matches where nobody else in the (mostly full) lobboes never climb up on a single roof for the entire match. The vast majority of matches, me and 1 or 2 more people might climb up. Very rarely do I play in matches where most players climb.

[candid berry]

It would be helpful.

I would knock that whole wall down if I could.

[spark hull]

I don't know I feel like the game shouldn't be catering to the bottom 50%

We should force people to get better or get killed

That's how everyone learns to play, and it shouldn't change

[candid berry]

IHMO, if those rooftop areas are what make Tribute a distinct map from Cyber, access shouldn't have to be earned or learned, and we should have glaringly obvious and very easy accessible ways to get to them.

[nova loom]

too much to read

just something to add, while I saw complaint of movement being put aside because you now have ladders, we mustn't forget that ladders are also limited in speed, make sound, and limit where the player can move while on it

this means that learning to move separate to the ladders still provides benefit

not so sure I could see ladders fitting in though, hard to imagine it and that may just be because I'm so used to seeing it the way it is

[tepid sun]

Also you cannot aim on them at all

[vocal lake]

i think this is good

[dreamy moon]

i think its better to make new players to learn parkour cause its really important skill in wb. They need to learn how to climb up high hills with RPG or impact grenade.

[candid berry]

People need to learn parkour in general, but there are plenty of other maps where that can be incentivized more. That goal should not be prioritized at the expense of the accessibility to what I would call fundamental areas of this one map. And there would still be the incentives to learn it on this map even with ladders. It would still be faster and more quiet to jump up instead and the ladders only get people up to these main roofs. There is still roof to roof parkouring to be learned.

[candid berry]

The set of ladders I proposed give access to all the roofs people use, but do not cover all the existing parkouring paths to get to them, so these would be additional remaining incentives and opportunities to learn to parkour.

I have thought about these changes for a long time. Maybe years at this point. I have also thought about placing crates/dumpsters/objects instead of ladders to simply facilitate jumping up...but the reason I chose ladders is that they indicate a path (for new players) and make the playing surfaces and those paths to them known immediately instead of something that will take time (I suspect a long long time) to discover.

[candid berry]

Vote for ladder at green arrow.

[spark hull]

people just need to learn to get good. No one starts off good at the game, you have to figure out the maps and the mechanics, I don't understand why we want to make people start off good

take valorant for example, I have a friend who is Immo 3 to 2k i think. He started in silver 1. He learned to get good. the game didn't hand him free wins.

no good game ever tried to make everything easy to figure out

[vocal lake]

Yeah but ladders would open up a whole new fighting space

[spark hull]

No it would not the buildings the dmthe devs want us to access r accessible. And in matches with competent players, they r already a fighting space. Again. Why r we catering to the people who just started the game??? If u want people to actually get on buildings. Play with good players like yourselves. Of course it's not fun when playing against low elo players, not because they can't get to where they want, but because they r BAD. They just started. Why do we keep pushing things out that encourage people to stop being good?

[vocal lake]

Ok

[spark hull]

It's like saying. The sniper rifle is hard to use, so we nerf it. When in reality, it just takes time to get use to.

[spark hull]

What does this mean. U can't just say a point, and not back it up?

[spark hull]

Yes.

Finally

[vocal lake]

I see your logic

[spark hull]

Alright gamers

It's me wolf hunter aka maniac on tundra account

I just heard a discussion about my favorite map so I had to check it out

I see a lot of good points on either sides, but imma have to agree with tundra here not cuz he is my brother but bc of many reasons

(BTW I didn't read everything so bear with me)

Why is tribute fun? It's a combination of movement and gun playing. No player can win by simply out aiming, and no player can win by simply moving

There r a lot of off angles to play with. The higher points r more exposed, but y can occasionally get kills there bc not everyone expects ppl up top

Same with the lower points

The best players r not the ppl who can jump on high buildings. No. It's the players who can utilize positioning well, which sometimes include jumping high

Bc of this, tribute is not only fun for high level players, but also a good starting map. It introduces players to wht sets this game apart from other games, the movement aspect

Yes, there r maps like desert where park our is useful as well, but the park our in desert is much harder and is less rewarding. The incentive to learn parkour will be significantly decreased

Tribute is also small, making things less confusing, and its close enough quarters enough that spraying and praying can warrant kills, tho not a lot

Ppl not enjoying the game will very rarely be bc they can't get up top in tribute or wut not. That is more likely to happen in colone or smth

In sum, I think tribute is a great starting map and a nutshell of wut the game is abt, movement combined with aim. It isn't too complicated, and the lack of movement will not warrant constant beat downs but rather minor disadvantages

Adding ladders will simply remove the fun movement mechanics of this game in that map. Who would learn to do the fast jumps when u can climb ladders? It only saves like a second

That's about all I have to say. Peace

[vocal lake]

[spark hull]

Lmho valid imput

Wut do u think?

[vocal lake]

Lemme finish reading

[spark hull]

Also

[vocal lake]

I completely agree with your summary and with all your points. Very well thought about. And honestly you’ve made me change sides lol. I love the movement and postion parts of this game so I think that tribute should be kept as it is

[spark hull]

Final thing to add. Why should we make tribute like desert if we already have desert? We DONT want to make maps similar. This is mainly for u @candid berry

[vocal lake]

👍

[tepid sun]

wispers in AS noises

[candid berry]

I stand by my arguments. I still think it is better to have obvious paths that immediately guide all players to these surfaces as these surfaces are ("Rooftops") Tribute (in contrast to Cyber). The vast majority of people treating and playing the map exactly like Cyber until they figure out where to go and how to get there is the problem I am trying to solve with this suggestion. I don't deny that there are some downside tradeoffs that have been mentioned to doing this, but I don't think any of those downsides are fundamentally important, and I still think it would be better to make the change, add the ladders and make those surfaces more accessible and more used.

[spark hull]

Redrum. If we hand everything to the new players they will get boted so fast. We already have desert. What's the point of making desert 2?

[candid berry]

This is not "everything". It is changes to a single map to distinguish it from another almost identical map.

[spark hull]

How r the downsides not fundamentally important? It is the only map where u can access all the buildings without a ladder. It is unique. If u want easier maps go play the easier maps. We can't make all the maps

[candid berry]

Tribute is not dessert. The rooftops on this map should be most of the game.

You can still access the rooftops with the ladders by parkouring beside them.

I'm still going to be parkouring beside the ladders.

I won't use them.

[spark hull]

The movement is the only fun part. This map allows people to learn the movement and the mechanics. If we add ladders to everything. They would stop learning

[candid berry]

You assume they will stop learning. That is not so clear to me. Getting them up on the rooftops faster earllier might make them want to mimic those skipping the ladders and jumping up.

[spark hull]

It is distinguished. If u just stopped playing against bots, you would see that. Again, why do we cater everything to worse players? If we hand them everything, they will bet bored in 2 weeks. It's like saying the sniper is too hard to use, so we should get rid of scop swing

[spark hull]

U don't understand. People are naturally lazy. They will learn. But much slower. No one wants to learn if they have a worse but easier option

[spark hull]

Kind of a word analogy, but communist countries fail because no one wants to work if they get money regardless. Same thing here. No one would want to work if we give them ladders

[tepid sun]

Path of least resistance will ALWAYS be used by the majority

No exceptions

[spark hull]

Exactly. They will NOT learn

[tepid sun]

Even I would use the ladders XD

Remove the invisible walls

Don't put ladders

Problem sorted

[spark hull]

@candid berry name me 1 game that bases their decision for the bottom 20%

It's not the end that is fun, but the journey and the learning experience

Don't take it away

Please

[candid berry]

That sounds like a strong argument for the ladders. It implied most people won't climb up to the roofs if the ladders are not there.

[candid berry]

This suggestion is based on the bottom 75% not 20%.

[tepid sun]

So why not just add smt like a instant win button? Skill? Pfft we don't need that

[spark hull]

No. It does not imply that. It implies that most people will use the easier option if presented one

[tepid sun]

We don't need to learn movements

[candid berry]

This suggestion is not about skill. It about guidance. Marking a path....

[spark hull]

Because of how bad the game js optimized, the bottom 75% gets 30 fps.

We should not cater to them

No matter what we do

They will still be bad. This will stay true until we optimize the game

[tepid sun]

Which doesn't actually push players into learning movement, let's not mention how everyone would just spawncamp the ladder with mines e.t.c

[tepid sun]

Which is near impossible unless we go the krunker route, and that's a lotta work

[spark hull]

Unfortunately, if u show it too them too clearly, they will not learn the actual skill

[tepid sun]

For out like 0.5 working devs

[candid berry]

I appreciate your arguments and feel free to put any more you have here to argue against the idea for the sake of the discussion, but you aren't going to change my mind.

[tepid sun]

Too stubborn?

[candid berry]

No. I think the change is for the better and your reasons don't convince me it isn't.

[tepid sun]

So giving everyone is a gud idea?

[spark hull]

This is just stubbornness. And logical fallacies at this point. The term " u am entitles to my own opinion" is a logical fallacy. Just because ur entitled to the opinion don't make u right

[candid berry]

communism? :/

[gloomy seal]

Guys

[tepid sun]

So giving everyone stuff for free*

[gloomy seal]

No attacking people please

[tepid sun]

God I love communism

[spark hull]

No one is attacking anyone. I used communism as a analogy

[tepid sun]

Me? I was just asking a simple question hehe

[gloomy seal]

I didn’t say you were I said please keep it civil

[tepid sun]

XP

[gloomy seal]

If you feel it was pointed at you that might show something 😏

[spark hull]

@candid berry I fully support adding arrows to mark the path, but ladders? No.

[gloomy seal]

Otherwise attacking other people doesn’t help

[candid berry]

I understand that some, maybe many, people will not like this suggestion. I am okay with that. It is good to have your points here for people to read.

[tepid sun]

Well duh I'm the biggest douche here

[spark hull]

Volk u provided no help. No one is attacking anyone. Stop blowing things out of proportion. R u a mod? Do u think I hate redrum because of this? Do u think he hates me?

[tepid sun]

A debate my man

A debate

Aggressive? Slightly but we aren't throwing insults left right and center

[candid berry]

Something like that (marking the paths in some way) would be a so-so compromise for me, but I still think ladders would be better.

Some of the jumping paths are very finicky and are very difficult on bad computers/connections.

[candid berry]

There is no "right" or "wrong" opinion here. I am prioritizing the playability of this map as a "rooftop" map for the entire playerbase and really distinguishing it from the Cyber version. Ladders should improve it by guiding and facilitating paths to those places which (I think) should be main playing surfaces.

You seem to be prioritizing the learning demands of the map. I appreciate that, but I believe (1) the cost of that priority to the playability of the map is too high, and (2) the incentive to learn that you think will be lost here are present on other maps and other parts of the game. I don't disagree that something would be lost, I just think it is not a major loss and so the tradeoff of putting ladders is positive.

That opinion is, of course, subjective...

[pine sigil]

You are free to debate. You don't need to debate so aggressively.

[pine sigil]

I would like to see either one to be implemented

Both ideas sound good to me

[candid berry]

I'm not sure just marking the paths goes far enough, but like I said, it would be an okay compromise towards what I would like to accomplish with the suggestion.

It would be uglier and more out of place looking to have a bunch of arrows vs ladders though and be less effective.

[nova loom]

I've not read much, but an edit log has pointed me here...

there is indeed no right or wrong opinion, everyone is welcome to put forward their ideas

I believe this was about making Tribute more distinguished against Silk's (Cyber) by putting deliberate emphasis on the rooftop access

interestingly... how much of that access though is intended

we've already had some kill boxes added in some places after all

_ _
I personally don't think ladders will hurt parkour on the map or the ability for players to learn it. It will just give players a deliberate emphasis on the ability to scale some of these heights, while the absence of them on Cyber would visually help many players recognise that you are not meant to go high up without needing to first bump into the invisible walls.

I see benefits to it.

I however personally don't see it fitting. Not something I can imagine in the map, and I think I've actually already said something about this and how it's probably just because I'm so used to the map over the years.

[spark hull]

I would agree on that actually

I do agree with u that there aren't enough good players to show beginners the moves

So we could either do that

Or have like a training course when someone logs in for the first time.

[nova loom]

naturally, a training ground or similar concept would be the best case for a player to learn things in

[spark hull]

I just don't want ladders so that there is a lazy option for people to get good at the game without actually learning the mechanics

[nova loom]

I'm not so sure the ladders would make a player good all of a sudden

[spark hull]

Mhm. It took me an wolf almost a month to discover that the bullet is affected by gravity for the sniper

[nova loom]

oh dear

[spark hull]

Zip it

[nova loom]

in my first week

pretty much my first time on Flooded

I discovered the god step as people called it

[spark hull]

What God step

[nova loom]

aka the extra midair jump

jump recovery

[spark hull]

Oh

Yeah

I love midair jump

[nova loom]

sad that it got patched

[spark hull]

Big sadge

[nova loom]

I always ran along those building tops holding space at the bumps

got those long jumps in

was a good fun thing to learn

never explained anywhere how to do it or that it was there

didn't even have someone to watch do it

if it were still around, this is the kind of thing the training ground map could greatly benefit from

showing off a feature and allowing it to be practised

[spark hull]

Yeah

Unfortunately

We don't have the time or the budget

[nova loom]

but on this, just because a player can reach a spot without needing parkour doesn't mean they're a good player or that they can pull an effective flank

parkour would still get these players off guard

[spark hull]

True, but they will have a big advantage

[nova loom]

perhaps even more in some cases because they actually have a spot to watch (the ladder) that they think you have to come from

[spark hull]

We just need to make sure they learn properly and not just climb ladders

[nova loom]

as opposed to currently where they may just know you could kind of be anywhere along a building since they keep dying to you up there

[spark hull]

Well hopefully if they see me can't up there 24/7 they would learn. Idk bro. I just don't want everything to be freely handed out. They should prolly work for these spots no?

[nova loom]

They wouldn't have access to every spot... nor would they be able to effectively use the spots a ladder grants to them.

I don't want ladders on the map, but I do see a reason for them

[spark hull]

Same

[candid berry]

As far as I know, this set of ladders would give everyone access to every usable rooftop spot. It would not cover all the different paths to all those spots though. Parkouring would still give you an edge, but it would no longer give exclusive access to these important parts of the map.

[candid berry]

I don't think these rooftops were originally intended to be used, and before the addition of Cyber tribute, it was fine that they were more secrets to be discovered. But now that there is a twin map where they are blocked off, they are what make this map distinct from Cyber. I'm pretty sure they are the reason Tribute was kept after the introduction of the Cyber version, and I think it would be an improvement to emphasize them.

I think Cyber Tribute (with rooftops blocked) is designed to be what Tribute was originally intended to be before Tribute's rooftop play was discovered and adopted, and so (I think) Tribute should now really and overtly become "Rooftops" Tribute. I admit it would be major change to the character of the map which is why I suspected there would be some strong resistance to it

[arctic raven]

I find half of the skill of this map is the game-IQ involved to get to the otherwise unreachable places, like the DEC wall.

I find with ladders those sought after spots will become overused and otherwise non special.

[tepid sun]

Like that bugged hitbox that means u can stand high on that outer side of the spawn hehe

[candid berry]

That is the goal of my suggestion. To change them from sought after spots/unknown spots and make them central to the gameplay on the map.

[candid berry]

In the rare lobbies that are full of good experienced players, everyone can and does go on some roofs...and that is not a problem. Quite the opposite, that is what makes those games good.