stop nerfing the rifles

[eager robin]

For people who know how to use the sniper, you would understand that it is OP. If I take good peeks, there is literally nothing I can do about me unless another sniper takes good peeks as well. Rifles almost never successfully counter a good sniper, no matter the rifler. This nerf came out of the blue. No one suggested anything about nerfs before hand. Nobody wanted it to be nerfed. This just feels like the devs don't listen to the community feedback. I would actually like a rifle buff, not a nerf. Can the devs please ask us for opinions before doing things like this.

[fluid storm]

From what I understand, the nerf was implemented because people were using a single rifle for everything. Nerfing them gives less frequently-used weapons like the LMG and the SMG family more reason to be used.

[eager robin]

I'm not going to lie. The smg is not underused

[fluid storm]

SMG Family

[eager robin]

Brother

[fluid storm]

SMG

VEK

VSS

[eager robin]

Neither r underused nate

Mate

Zinc is a vek guy

Banana is a vss guy

Neither are bad at it

[eager robin]

Then buff the LMG. Don't nerf the rifles

[fluid storm]

LMG got at least 2 buffs over the past couple months

[eager robin]

If u want more people to use LMG, either buff it or nerf all the guns

[eager robin]

Ok and

Just buff it mofe

More

Plus it's meant for anti vehicle

[fluid storm]

In what way?

[eager robin]

Not an expert, but remember toppy saying something about LMG being anti vehicle

[fluid storm]

LMG got its round capacity increased to 40 from 20, then got a massive anti-vehicle damage boost, then got a reduction in recoil

[eager robin]

Yes

And if it's still bad, there isn't a problem buffing it again.

[fluid storm]

so it's very different from its original state, and with this new nerf it gets an edge over the other rifles in certain conditions

[eager robin]

Past decisions should not influence current ones in this case

[eager robin]

But rifles and LMGs r not the only guns

You have now also buffed the smgs ,shotguns, and snipers

Do u not understand what I'm saying here

[fluid storm]

why is that?

[eager robin]

Because their competitors, the rifles, got nerfed

Do u not understand what I'm saying

[fluid storm]

a nerf to one weapon ≠ a buff to another

[fluid storm]

I do not, could you explain in a different way?

[eager robin]

Brother in Christ u just said the LMG got buffed because the rifle got nerfed. The same logic can be applied to all other guns

[eager robin]

Now all guns have a larger edge over the rifles, not just the LMG

[fluid storm]

How so? At range an AK will still beat an SMG

[eager robin]

It won't

And the range got smaller

[fluid storm]

It just prevents people from using the rifles in every single possible scenario.

[eager robin]

What is wrong with that

Agent broker and joja literally uses the hunting rifle and the smg in every single map

Joja runs it on skull islabd

Should we then nerd the smg?

[fluid storm]

i.e. now using the AK in cqc will not be as successful as before

[fluid storm]

Exactly, a loadout that's optimized for short/mid range

[eager robin]

It never was hello

[long cradle]

AK was a substitute for SMG

it was a low fire rate smg, 3 headshot kill and good accuracy, the recoil could be negated close range

now it is forced to be used at a further range

[fluid storm]

Also had decent range to reach out past the damage drop of other weapons

[eager robin]

Then how come the smg still out-permorms the ak pre nerf

[long cradle]

it has a faster fire rate and is meant for close range

[fluid storm]

Higher fire rate

[eager robin]

No. The damage got nerfed, not the range, so it can't even compete in any range

[pseudo pelican]

I main SMG on every small map

[long cradle]

the ak can be used at the range the SMG fails to be used on, it simply allows for more variation

[eager robin]

No it cant

[long cradle]

are you not the person who suggested changing the meta? This forces a change to it, I'm sorry it happened to not be in your loadouts favor

[eager robin]

Because the long range guns r better now too

[pseudo pelican]

If anything the .50 cal was needed against vehicles and aircraft

And it got nerfed

[eager robin]

Yes. By buffing the bad guns, not nerfing the balanced ones. Now the sniper is the meta.just like before. They just strengthened it

[long cradle]

on the contrary, I think it may allow for more variation in loadouts, such as people using vek and lmg, or hunting and vss

i think it makes the sniper more obsolete, as now rifles will be used less, and a rifle is the perfect pair to sniper

rifles will be chosen because of their larger magazines, but now will have to compete against lmg and hunting, that do more damage, but have more recoil and less ammo

[wintry kraken]

cross posting the link to the graphs I made since it's relevant
#wb-chat message

[amber dagger]

is it really a good thing to have more variation in loadouts?

FPS games tend to be more aim oriented, not weapon loadout oriented

having meta weapons is never a bad thing

making weapons overpowered on the other hand is

but that is different than making a weapon meta

the rifles never seemed overpowered to me

the original damage dropoff was already a good way to balance the rifles with the other classes

at short range an smg or shotgun would of vourse be more viable, and at long ranges a sniper would of course be more viable

and the rifles fit their role of being medium ranged weapons

[wintry kraken]

^

thing about this change is that it really doesn't do a whole lot, except make the AK way less viable

rest of the rifles aren't affected too much

[amber dagger]

welp time to run double sniper only

[frail bane]

I agree, having meta weapons isn't a bad thing or wanting variation

In games like valorant and I assume csgo, there are weapons that everyone choses because they're just good.

Some guns are side grades and are better in some situations, but there are always guns that are just reliable.

[drowsy salmon]

The nerf is not massive. If I pick up the lowest damaging of the three rifles, the SCAR, I would still need to hit 4 head shots at minimum to kill.

The damage nerf just means that the further ranges that are considered effective still will no longer be the case. This will allow weapons like the LMG or Hunting Rifle to be considered more for a player to use which I think is great, while still allowing the rifles to act next to exactly the same as before.

The only real difference players will feel is that AK is now 4 head shots at minimum rather than the old 3.

The main benefit to that is the SMG, VEK, and VSS have further incentivised usage for the closer ranges, and AK gets pushed out to its appropriate ranges. Before this the AK could still make a decent substitute for closer ranges.

There's also possible good room for the 4th AR Joja has talked about to come in as a burst AR with a 3 head shot kill, and it would balance in nicely with how a burst vs automatic choice plays out.

[wintry kraken]

How will the two other (presumably) close range guns fit in then?

Going down this path we'll have 4 ARs and 5 SMG type weapons

That's a lot of niches to have

[drowsy salmon]

I'm not sure. I previously likened the SMG to the AR of the SMGs, and the VEK as the SCAR of the SMGs. The AK74U I can at least liken to the AK... but the MP7 I have nothing to work off for me to try guessing how it could work

[wintry kraken]

VEK is more of a mix between AK/Scar

Higher damage drop off like with the AK but smooth handling as with the scar

[drowsy salmon]

I use it as SCAR because of the faster fire rate, higher magazine, and lower recoil

[wintry kraken]

mhm

[drowsy salmon]

easier to use, but overall less DPS than the others

the AK74U I could then assume to have a higher power and higher recoil...

but it's a little more complex when we're trying to balance it all together with things focused on one range group

so I don't know what Joja has in mind for that

[wintry kraken]

less dps is only 5 lower than the smg

so not a whole lot

I just find that it's getting crammed

Valorant splits most weapon choices into 2 options

that works great

4 for each is a lot

[drowsy salmon]

I don't think it's all too bad for there to be options that are available for basically the same thing, but it does make each of them feel less unique

it's just a "choose what colour you want" sort of thing when that happens

and not a "choose a sword or a mace", each thing having a different purpose

[drowsy salmon]

I definitely agree there

[eager robin]

Wut about the ak. That one now also takes 4 shots. u used the most insignificant one as an example

[eager robin]

Nvm

[eager robin]

Precisely. We don't need so much guns

It's why I still don't like the LMG

It does not have a big niche

[drowsy salmon]

No it does, LMG is a fine weapon choice

I'll take LMG on Desert

LMG + Sniper

[eager robin]

Also another thing

Now that the rifles r nerfed

[drowsy salmon]

I used the SCAR as the example since it has the lowest damage, and we're talking about a damage drop

[eager robin]

The ak is useless compared to the ar

[drowsy salmon]

so if the lowest damaging one can still act fine, everything above in theory would too

[eager robin]

No

The ak has a slow fire rate

Post nerf it's a slower ar

With recoil

[drowsy salmon]

that's a comparison within the three rifles, rather than comparing to the other weapons in the game

[eager robin]

And more dage drop off

[drowsy salmon]

the AK's fire rate has not changed

it's not a slower AR post-nerf

[eager robin]

Yes ik. But let's not deny that the ak is pointless now

[drowsy salmon]

I wouldn't say pointless

though I know what you mean

[eager robin]

Pretty sure it always was slower

[drowsy salmon]

it's about the 8 vs 8.1

[eager robin]

Lambda said it

[drowsy salmon]

yes

AK is 8

AR is 8.1

SCAR is 9.4

[eager robin]

Yeah

So now there is no reason to use ak

[drowsy salmon]

for those ranges where you would use the AK, it's really just going to be "who clicks first"

the speed benefit the AR has in time to kill is 0.005 seconds

less actually

cause I rounded the AR down to a flat decimal

[eager robin]

Still makes ak pointless

Let's not forget the dmg drop-off

And the recoil

[drowsy salmon]

0.005 seconds is pretty insignificant, it'll still be "who clicked first" when looking at who will get the kill

the drop off and recoil was always there

we always knew AK was for closer

and AR you would take for longer

[eager robin]

Now it isn't even for closer tho

[drowsy salmon]

the damage drop now means that they can't go AS long as they used to

[eager robin]

The time to kill is the same

[drowsy salmon]

which is good for other weapons

[eager robin]

Even for closer ranges

[drowsy salmon]

like the Hunting

[eager robin]

Bro

The DPS ak still wins. But time to kill is the same

[eager robin]

No. It also means the AK has worse range, recoil, and time to kill compare to AR

[drowsy salmon]

I'm talking all three rifles...

all three can't be used as far

[eager robin]

I know

[drowsy salmon]

the ranges that the AK would normally be used in slightly drops

[eager robin]

But u have yet to disprove my point that AK is useless. The nerf killed the gun

[eager robin]

My point

[drowsy salmon]

the effective range that it is active in though is still "who clicks first" compared to the AR

[wintry kraken]

A 60m drop isnt a slight one

[drowsy salmon]

AR you can use from longer

but also has a slight drop

[eager robin]

No

[drowsy salmon]

60m I do consider slight

[eager robin]

Because I would also have to control the spray more

[drowsy salmon]

considering just how heavy a range the AR especially had

[eager robin]

It's not who clicks first

It's not valorant

[drowsy salmon]

ok, that's equally true for both the AR and AK

you have to control the recoil

[eager robin]

Its not. AK has higher recoil

[eager robin]

AK is harder

[drowsy salmon]

I'm not saying I like the idea of the AK being less TTK, even by 0.005 seconds

and that I like that the AK feels like STATISTICALLY it is lesser to the AR

but practically, it won't actually matter too much

yes I feel like it means it's not going to be getting as much love

because you can now just use the AR for the AK ranges

and perform like you would with the AK

for less recoil control

I don't like that aspect

but I'm not going to pretend that 0.005 seconds and a tiny bit more mouse movement is going to stop me from using the AK and still performing against the AR in the AK's respective range

because at the end of the day, that makes little to no difference

yes I think the AK needs a slight buff now

but the overall nerf I think is good

AK just now needs some tweak to give it more of an edge to the AR

_ _
pick up the Hunting

it's a good medium weapon

[thorny perch]

Good gun

Very fun to use

[drowsy salmon]

too many players overlook those longer weapons

this 60m drop as tanks said means these weapons like Hunting will be more relevant

[eager robin]

I already do

[drowsy salmon]

I suggest a combo of SMG + Hunting for example

[eager robin]

I do that on kitchen

[drowsy salmon]

SMG + Hunting I did trials with to counter AR + Sniper and AK + Sniper sets

on Southwest

and had great results

[wintry kraken]

@eager robin Guess which smoothbrain move I pulled for the third time today
got the previous graphs wrong

anyways redid them with all new damage values, the AK no longer 3 shot kills at any range

TTK graph: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/azy0em5air
HTK graph: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/hhglfryzza

Order of tables is as follows:
Old AR, AK, Scar -> New AR, AK, Scar

(To enable graphs, click on the blank circles/check boxes, see highlights in bottom image)

[eager robin]

@wintry kraken I think u messed up the ar

its a nerf not a buff

[wintry kraken]

which y tables did you turn on

AR is 1 and 4

AK is 2 and 5

Scar is 3 and 6

1,2,3 are pre-nerf
4,5,6 are post-nerf

[eager robin]

what no thats wrong

the graph shouldn't intersect

it should be worse for all ranges

wait nvm im dumnb

jkjk

[amber dagger]

bruh so why would anyone use the AK over the AR now...

sacrifice the usage of 1 already commonly used weapon for 2 niche weapons

[drowsy salmon]

AK vs AR is currently "who clicks first" for the AK's respective range

it's more than two weapons that benefit

I simply named the LMG and Hunting as lesser used options that tend to be overlooked

overall rifle nerf - pretty beneficial all around
AK compared to AR - could use some tweaking but not broken by any means, just unfortunate

[wintry kraken]

Who clicks first only applies to 100% accuracy

[drowsy salmon]

which is often how you compare weapons

because if you miss plenty, then of course you're probably going to lose anyway

[wintry kraken]

Since the AR has better handling, it's going to come out on top in most situations

[drowsy salmon]

it probably would in the hands of someone unfamiliar with AK

it's not so big a control difference in mouse movement for closer ranges

AR typically already was better to be used at those longer ranges on the AK already

if there's a way to now make the AK top the AR properly in close ranges like it did before, that would be ideal

otherwise at the moment it's basically tied, and doing worse than AR

I like the nerf as a whole though

the rifles in the overall meta

I understand the AK vs AR thing

but people seem to be ignoring rifles as a whole in the meta

[eager robin]

really isn't

i don't know why you still think that

the numbers don't lie

yes it can outcompete it

but

2 players duel each other 100 times

the ar will win more

[drowsy salmon]

0.005 seconds advantage to the AR

I am not pretending that such a small number is big

it's still who clicks first if you control the recoil

[eager robin]

but the recoilllll

holyyyyyyy

the recoil mannnn

[drowsy salmon]

have you read what I've said?

[eager robin]

its slower andddd it is harder to control

[drowsy salmon]

I know the AK has more recoil

I know the AK seems useless to the AR

I want the AK to be buffed now

I'm just not pretending that the AR is somehow overpowered on the AK

because the difference is not large

[eager robin]

yes. Your saying that statistically it is worse, but it can still compete

[wintry kraken]

I don't think anyone claimed the AR is op now

[eager robin]

large is a vague term

[drowsy salmon]

no, not that it's op

[wintry kraken]

Just that there's no reason whatsoever to use the AK over the AR

[drowsy salmon]

but that compared to the AK...

[eager robin]

something large to me may not be to you

[wintry kraken]

And you seem to keep arguing that it doesn't matter

[eager robin]

yes. AR isn't great, its just AK is worse

[drowsy salmon]

mostly yes, it mostly does not matter on the field for the AK's respective range

the AR does have the slight advantage

[amber dagger]

i think the recoil difference is pretty significant

[wintry kraken]

This is what I'm saying

[drowsy salmon]

but it's so minute that practically for the AK range it doesn't matter all too much

[eager robin]

^

[wintry kraken]

But it does

You keep saying it doesn't

But the handling

Recoil

Spread per shot

[drowsy salmon]

maybe I find the handling easier

[wintry kraken]

All of it is worse

[drowsy salmon]

who knows

we all have opinions on the control

[wintry kraken]

The spread especially

And it isn't opinion based

[eager robin]

plok. its worse in reoil, speed, and range. These things add up. Yes i can still beat people up with it, but there isn't a reason for me to do so with the AK

[drowsy salmon]

I just don't think it's much movement on the mouse for the ranges where the AK is best used

[wintry kraken]

The AK missed way more shots standing still while I was testing the damage at farther ranges

[drowsy salmon]

the AK's range is still going to compete with the AR

[wintry kraken]

While both were standing still

[drowsy salmon]

will I pick AK vs AR?

unlikely

I will probably just take AR

[amber dagger]

it's pretty obvious that the AK recoil is worse 💀

[wintry kraken]

Then stop arguing in a roundabout way that it doesn't matter

[drowsy salmon]

because it doesn't to me

[amber dagger]

but it probably would for new players

[drowsy salmon]

0.005 seconds realistically doesn't matter

[wintry kraken]

Skull emoji x7

[drowsy salmon]

slight mouse movement to me realistically doesn't matter

[amber dagger]

would a new player use the AR or the AK now?

of course the AR!

[drowsy salmon]

I already graphed the time to kill

my bad

[drowsy salmon]

they start with the AR

[eager robin]

ok. plague, go ask people what they prefer post nerf

[drowsy salmon]

so likely yes

[eager robin]

if an overwhelming amount say AR

then the AK is pointless

[wintry kraken]

Where'd you get your numbers for the graph?

[amber dagger]

i started with the AR, and switched the AK after recognizing the damage difference

[drowsy salmon]

you're missing my point

[eager robin]

the numbers don't lie

[drowsy salmon]

the raw data for the game

[amber dagger]

but now that that damage difference is practically gone...

[wintry kraken]

It's different than what I got from in game

[drowsy salmon]

Joja himself

the exact damage drop range for start and end

and the rate of damage decrease

[eager robin]

@drowsy salmon yes the AK can still kill. But the AR does it better in all scenarios. Even a bit is better. If I was to 1v1 myself. The AK will lose 9 times out of 10

[drowsy salmon]

that's why I don't show much labelling there, because I shouldn't disclose those numbers

other than the time in seconds on the y label

[wintry kraken]

another complaint I have about the game lol

disclose the numbers

like seriously

it helps everyone

[eager robin]

w h y a r e w e s o s e c r e t i v e

[drowsy salmon]

idk

not my choice what is and isn't okay to share

[eager robin]

the wholre reason i am so mad is cuz no one told us there was a nerf

[drowsy salmon]

I just respect the choices

[eager robin]

no one asked for one

[drowsy salmon]

hey, I only found out basically yesterday myself

[wintry kraken]

but how do you get a TTK under 4 for the AK at above 220m

[eager robin]

there aint no way joojaaaaaa we need commms

[drowsy salmon]

realistically it may not be at 4 seconds as it may be hard to land all shots

[eager robin]

plssss

[wintry kraken]

I'm talking about 100% HS accuracy

which is what your graph also appears to show

[drowsy salmon]

haven't had time to format these

[wintry kraken]

Think it's a rounding difference

[drowsy salmon]

those horizontal lines mark head shot damage ranges

currently unlabelled

so they are under the 3 line, above the 4

[wintry kraken]

I ceilinged my values, the one you posted probably didn't

[drowsy salmon]

initially

I have a ceiling and floor

[wintry kraken]

For this graph

[wintry kraken]

since I got a TTK of 4, and without the ceiling it would be 3.9

[drowsy salmon]

ttk ^

are you discounting the intitial shot?

that may be our difference

I treat the first shot at 0 seconds

[wintry kraken]

possibly

[drowsy salmon]

I also have not accounted for reloads in that

so at some point it would go up

[wintry kraken]

my TTK formula was (375/dmg)*(1/8.0)

and ceilinged that

So for the AK at 220m

Dmg=12 for a HS

[drowsy salmon]

let me try to translate the cells to a formula...

[wintry kraken]

TTK = 3.906, and ceilings to 4

[drowsy salmon]

(1/8) * Ceiling[(375 - 60)*2 / (60 * 2), 1]

AK

8 RPS

60 damage

first value is 0.375 seconds

[wintry kraken]

I get an error with that
You're using excel though right?

[drowsy salmon]

yes, was

I moved this to sheets

sheets may have converted what I had

I really hate google sheets too...

[wintry kraken]

fair

[wintry kraken]

Was the final value 0.75 here?

[drowsy salmon]

^

trying to find my csv file

so I don't have to go plug old PC in

[wintry kraken]

ok yeah

that makes sense

didn't subtract the first shot difference

which is why it's slightly higher

mb

[drowsy salmon]

yeah because I treat first shot at 0 seconds

[wintry kraken]

mhm

[drowsy salmon]

was wondering if that was the case

gives me the AR at 0.370004...

AK at 0.375

and SCAR at 0.3191...

I took it to Joja before the update went live

asked about it

I do hope we get the AK given the buff back to properly compete with the AR

[kind marsh]

SMG is generally used less these days, been replaced in many situations by the VEK particularly for indoor maps.

[eager robin]

i don't think so

I think most high level players still use SMG, like infy and doki

its cuz SMG is statiscally better but a bit harder to control

but I think smg is fine

[amber dagger]

no more people are using smg because vek got nerfed

like 3 updates ago or smthing

i think statistically smg is better now, but vek is easier to control as you said

[eager robin]

yeah

vek is kinda mid no lie

[amber dagger]

that update was honestly a good idea

vek was broken

[kind marsh]

We are just not going to agree on much today - kek. Vek tends to rule indoors - can't even remember the last time I saw Doki on Office, Space Station or Bunker. I prefer to carry the SMG, but If I do on those indoor map PPL with a VEK will kill me - might also have to do with the company I see regularly on the indoor maps - I see a lot of the top 10 VEK users daily...

[amber dagger]

hey @eager robin at least you got what you've been on your knees begging for for the past month

no idea if it applies to the browser or steam or both though

[eager robin]

if there is one I sure didnt notice it

same 720p at 70 fps

[amber dagger]

maybe just browser then

ha

L

[near apex]

heh rifle nerfs

@eager robin You said stop nerfing the rifles, so is this not the first time they do it?

[eager robin]

yes

they nerfed it when i think either lucky or beHappy started being so good at it ppl thought the were hacking

[near apex]

mhm

I will go trial these rifles if I have time

[unreal mason]

I usually go AR and sniper on outdoor maps, sometimes I take homing if there's aircraft. I've used LMG some too.

Not thrilled with AR getting nerfed, but I guess I'll have to see it in game to see how much of a difference it actually makes.

[near apex]

I use the same load out as yours

[azure forum]

indeed the smg if anything is overused

people main it

and the quick reload means people don't use any other gun

[pseudo pelican]

Additional points:

Change in Rifle Stats Do Produce Significant Differences

1. The difference between 3 headshots to kill and 4 headshots to kill for me, is huge. I have had my fair share of close calls in getting my last bullet to kill the other player, and being left with under 5hp myself when someone manages to shoot at me. What we see as tiny differences in figures must be drawn to in-game experiences. Any change in numbers will affect gameplay to a significant degree.

AK Rifle is Particularly Shortchanged

2. The recent adjustment means AR is now on top of the AK for most scenarios. However, it's hard for AK mains like myself to just switch to AR. I am used to the feel and recoil of the AK, and the way I fire and move is also tailored towards winning almost all of my fights with the rifle. What is the purpose of the AK now if it has no exceptional strong point over the other rifles? I ask that we make development decisions not just based solely on making SMG/LMG more viable, but also to consider the implications on players who prefer other weapons. I prefer to stick to the AK because it is useful at distances under 150m. SMG/LMG isn't as versatile.

Communicating Controversial Decisions

3. As someone involved in multiple capacities related to the game, I do feel there is a lot more which should be done in terms of communicating with the player base. If you are making a controversial decision, take extra effort to lay out the logical basis for doing so before implementing the change - so there will be greater understanding from everyone. Don't implement a change, wait for the community to blow up, and then communicate the thought process. This is a passionate community, but their passion for the game is not perpetual. Communicate and convince why this game is worth everyone's time.

Future of the Game

I highly doubt there will be changes, and the rifles will remain nerfed. Even if changes are reversed, I am still in great doubt that communication processes will be improved. The steps to do so are not difficult.

1. Consult the moderation team who have significant ties with the community, and know what's popular and unpopular. They are the eyes on the ground, and can provide early sensemaking on what decisions need extra care in communicating. Utilize this.

2. Elaborate on change log beyond line items. Why was this change made? What is the targeted outcome? What are the alternatives if the change is not well received? Yes, this requires more time investment, but it is worth it - especially when the community is passionate in scrutinizing every detail of what is posted.

3. Consult the community in a townhall every three months. Learn their likes and dislikes over current features, and which are the ones they would like to see - and then share whether they are plausible. This builds engagement with your community, and establishes a common thread of understanding over the state of the game.

Tagging the key participants of the thread in case there's interest to continue on the responses, thanks.
@eager robin @amber dagger @long cradle @drowsy salmon @wintry kraken

[drowsy salmon]

Appreciate being tagged

townhall idea I think is a great idea

higher level of communication as a whole is greatly beneficial for everyone

and as I have stated above, I too am in favour of tweaks to buff the AK from where it is

my opinion only differs to the level at which I feel the changes have had an effect on

65 > 60 has meant 3 HS to 4HS which breaks the proper balance AK did have to the AR, and I think that is the best way the game could have handled it

while I don't mind a damage drop, I would not dare to let the AK drop from 3 HS range

which would mean you couldn't go lower than 63

_ _
I think if Joja is looking to change up the ranges of these weapons, a better approach may be the damage drop rather than the base damage

make the weapons start damage drop earlier

that's an alternative that provides a similar end result

_ _
I disagree on the statement on your doubt to changes

I think Joja will note the changes' effects on the community and either simply revert the changes, or tweak it to improve balance

he's previously shown he is capable of listening to feedback and undone things in the past that caused a massive uproar

primary examples being the tweaks to the grenade throwing, and some of the vehicle changes

Let’s give it a try. It is trivial to change weapons back. Sometimes it is good to try new things. People get used to one set thing and it can be uncomfortable to try change. If the community does not like it we can change it back.

• Joja15
  #wb-chat message

[pseudo pelican]

I disagree on this on the basis that there isn't evidence of a concrete plan; it resembles more of a very rudimentary "wait and see" which I think is dangerous of slipping into forgetting about the issue altogether. The grenade tweak was extremely broken, to the point that grenades did not feel usable. This isn't the case for rifles, they are still usable so I'm not sure of the scale for comparison. That said, I do hope that if changes are made, they are made as quickly as what we saw for grenades.

[pseudo pelican]

This response is exactly what I am concerned of; it's a "let's wait and see" without any further elaboration - and suggests that there isn't a plan.

What is the plan here?

"I will assess the community's interaction after a week, and gather everyone's opinions. I will then see if the move was popular and if people's gameplay experiences have been improved or weakened because of this change. Thereafter, I will decide on whether I should reverse or keep the change."

Now this is a concrete plan which will give folks faith that there is a real commitment to listening and taking action on feedback. This will be more comforting.

[drowsy salmon]

I would perhaps suggest that Joja—who currently makes these remarks currently in the #wb-chat—bring it to the wider view of the community through the #📢announcements/#📋changelog so that everyone is aware rather than the few people online and reading at that given time.

It's a bit like the #faq but more of a live update thing. If there are common concerns, announce for everyone to see so that it is covered for everyone.

This is me talking about communication after the fact, rather than a warning ahead of time.

[eager robin]

@rustic shard if u r confused on how to improve comms here is some pointers to help u get started

[thorny perch]

I enjoyed the community town halls where the devs would host it and we would listen. Occasionally they would have us come up one by one and ask a question and go into it in depth. I think we need another one of those about future changes and content drops coming to WB so then we as the community can better voice our views and opinions on that direction.

[rustic shard]

Not to make the SMG more used but to make the Hunting Rifle/LMG more relevant.

[rustic shard]

Some people use the sniper, I use the Hunting Rifle. For close range I use the SMG.

[long trench]

All rifles should be put back the way they were

SCAR could even use a very slight buff

[fervent trout]

I AGREE

[amber mortar]

Vek kinda sucks, and the vss I think is technically a sniper.

[long trench]

No

Mid-range

But sniper scope

[quick radish]

yes

[unreal mason]

One issue is that we have a lot of different guns, and it's very hard to make them all have their own niche while keeping them all balanced. So long as community opinions are taken on board, some level of experimentation isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[near apex]

We don't have that many different situations on maps for every gun to show their best advantage, especially when we're talking about winning every other guns

[fading turtle]

IRL the VSS is a sniper, in game its better than the other SMGs for longer ranges

[fading turtle]

can we call it the BAR plz? also i feel like no matter what u do the BAR won't b used, id say its one of thew best universal weapons in the game, but nobody uses it everyone goes AK

why? idk, mb the actual feel of the BAR doesn't have the same punch if u know what i mean

[maiden otter]

I don't like the scope, but the biggest reason I don't like it is because I have to click shoot so much. It's annoying,

There's too much recoil to use it on auto, and it's weak enough that you have to click too many individual shots.

[grand tinsel]

Yea

[fading turtle]

3 headshot kill, has a bipod so recoil doesn't exist

[maiden otter]

Maybe recoil isn't the right word. Too much jumping with every shot...and it's possible my aim is crap because the scope is not good.

[pseudo pelican]

It doesn't even have a scope either just a dot 🙁

[maiden otter]

I mean the scope view, with the gun blocking out your view below the dot and that jumping up and getting in the way of your target's view with each shot.

[kind marsh]

Best part - rid'em cowboy🤠

Want a real Thompson with strong recoil and big damage.

Having some fun trying Auto sniper as my run'n gun - Auto pistol, Auto Sniper, Sniper is fun. Auto sniper paired with mini gun or homing can work well on SW.

[kind marsh]

yeah, a bit

AR takes a decent pull down on Auto, LMG just a bit more 🙂

[maiden otter]

I really like the auto sniper.

Auto sniper, auto pistol and RPG for when there's APCs around.

[rustic shard]

Where you crouched in that recording? If you crouch the recoil/jump is almost non-existent. I actually want to increase the ammo to 100 rounds. I think it would be good as filling the role a fixed MG would have. More of a suppression weapon.

[long trench]

@rustic shard I think 100 is much too excessive for the gun. 40 seems to fit fine; if it really must be increased, 50 - 60 would suffice.

[pseudo pelican]

If it's 100 ... please kindly increase the reload time to the same duration of the minigun

[fluid storm]

Or just allow 100 rd mags in BR/DEC and keep it as is right now?

[near apex]

100 is a bit.. ridiculous

[fluid storm]

Not for a weapon that's supposed to be providing suppressive fire...

[pseudo pelican]

This doesn't say anything

Say why it's good, which area it excels in

Provide valuable inputs

[grand tinsel]

LMG is a good midranged gun. Deals good damage and is easy enough to get a kill with you if can handle the recoil, which isn’t very hard. It is very good at killing enemy veichles and I think that 100 round would be better, but if it were to be increased to 100 there should be less damage per round.

[pseudo pelican]

💯

[kind marsh]

If you give it a 100 round clip, plz fix the anemic damage the Heli2 dishes out.

[rustic shard]

I agree at 100 rounds the damage may need to be reduced. Same goes for damage via vehicles.

[fading turtle]

AHH

AHH

please no! don't butcher that poor gun!

its ot the wrong name, the wrong mag model too that isn't even supposed to be used by a standing man on his own!

don't make it even worse! please!

[fading turtle]

crouch, also it doesn't remove the actualk aiming dot so no biggie

AHH

[fading turtle]

40 round mag with instant reload and no recoil sin't gud enough?

are we tryin to kill the effiectiveness of the minigun XD you can't do this!

[fading turtle]

its a lready a supressive highly versatile weapon that is probs gunna actually see use now as a rifle, suppresive fire was its purpose, but then ur kinda jsut throwing the entire idea of the BAR out the window, it technically isn't even a LMG, more like HCAR/SAW, if ur want a actual, proper, thru and thru suppresive fire LMG, add a 70 round M249 with a special amin feature desighnerd for it instead of making the BAR a second minigun for some reason

[maiden otter]

I don't crouch. Not moving is how you die in this game. I probably just suck with that gun. I find it too hard to be accurate with it. Too many better options from my perspective anyways. No loss.

[fading turtle]

hmm not anymore, the BAR is desighned for walking suppresive fire

its ok when not crouched either, a toned down hunting rifle 3 shots to the head

also u can speed crouch too

[fading turtle]

jump, crouch, smoke a guy, then move on, if hes too close for that then go hipfire or the AP

[grand tinsel]

Yes. That would be good

[fading turtle]

WHY??

the minigun! the minigun!

[maiden otter]

Like i said, too many better options. Use it if you want. I'm just expressing why I personally don't like it.

[grand tinsel]

IF the Lmg had 100 rounds. IF

[fading turtle]

im a wartime gun fanatic and this entire convos is litterally triggering me so hard RN

[grand tinsel]

why?

[fading turtle]

physically shaking in pure rage of this illogical!

AHH

[grand tinsel]

Also I don’t know anything about guns

IRL

[fading turtle]

why 100 rounds? theres no need! WHY! AHH

[maiden otter]

I don't care about guns nor how realistic the ones in the game are. It's about gameplay for me.

[fading turtle]

one of my favorite wartime guns is being butchered by my favorite game!

[grand tinsel]

Unfortunate lol. Also it’s not sure yet

[fading turtle]

its not that i liek the BAR, its just, theres no point, ur gonna make it useless

[grand tinsel]

Same. That counts the most for me rn too.

[maiden otter]

The only value in it I see right now is versus vehicles.

[fading turtle]

the reload is fine now with 40 rounds along with the DMG and general userbility, why make it useless?

100 rounds with nerfed DMG would jsut b so bad, ud have to b in the line of fire, crouched, constantly firing at a guy with chip damange!

[fading turtle]

id say the minigun wouldf b ur best bet, the animation can never get in the way XD

[grand tinsel]

If they were to change to 100 rounds it would be counterbalancing to lower dmg

[grand tinsel]

Mini gun has so much more recoil then Lmg tho

[fading turtle]

but theres no need to change it?

[fading turtle]

balance lad cmon boi, you can't have the best DPS gun in the game b liek the BAR XD

[grand tinsel]

Idk why I’m even talking about this I was just giving my opinion on a gun that I like

Il be back in a bit

[fading turtle]

i don't understand why theres any need for a low dmg 100 round gun

[maiden otter]

Like I wrote earlier. If there are vehicles, I prefer auto sniper+ auto pistol+ RPG. Mini gun is too heavy. Being slow is also how you die.

[grand tinsel]

Agreed

Lmg is like a better minigun. The mini is practically obsolete rn

It’s a heavy slow gun

[fading turtle]

hard for a minigun not to b in a way

id like it more if it was liek a TF2 minigun ngl

then thatd b the oppresive fire option with 100 round that people seemingly want

[grand tinsel]

Lmg could become new turret type thing which I like as long as it doesn’t get heavier

[fading turtle]

without also making the BAR obselete

[grand tinsel]

?

[maiden otter]

I'm not contributing to any thing constructive here, so I'm out. Good luck with the LMG. If you make it better in a way I like, maybe I'll use it.

[grand tinsel]

Sounds good. Cya red

[fading turtle]

it already is a turret when crouched

and the reload is so minimal it barely exists

like the VSS reload e.t.c.

[maiden otter]

Was not crouching. I only crouch to heal.

[rustic shard]

The recoil crouched is much better.

[grand tinsel]

But even without crouching the recoil really isn’t very bad

[near apex]

yea

though I'm not very used to its recoil

[grand tinsel]

Yeah. But if you play it for a while you get used to jt quick

Although maybe I’m just good with recoil

[gritty sail]

Recoil in this game is really low

[grand tinsel]

For some

[maiden otter]

I know I said I was out and am commenting again, but I find it hard to accurately track a moving target everytime to gun jumps up and blocks it.

[grand tinsel]

For others not true

[grand tinsel]

Fair enough. I find it no problem but I have a high sense I think

[near apex]

It's not that it's low, it's because it's a straight line

like almost an up and down straight line

[grand tinsel]

Yes

[gritty sail]

yeah true but i think in general its quite low

depends on the weapon though

[near apex]

I've heard my friends who plays other fps games saying that too

[gritty sail]

Yeah i am used to PUBG recoil

[grand tinsel]

I find it extremely low too.

I play krunker and warbrokers as my only two fps games really.

[near apex]

I only play wb and still can't handle it

[grand tinsel]

In wb I find it remarkably easy to control. But I have good fps and play on good sense that I’m used to so I think it’s just me that can handle it and has gotten used to it

[gritty sail]

but tbh i think the weapon sway is way too much

[grand tinsel]

Yeah. But I think it’s good. Weapon sway is helpful at times.

[gritty sail]

for example?

[grand tinsel]

Sniper

[near apex]

You practice controlling the sway, use it to make the bullet fly in the direction you want it to go

[grand tinsel]

Idk. I just find sway nice to have.

It’s all about practice

I’ve pretty much got the sway down on the guns I play

[gritty sail]

Yeah i can handle it but it just annoys me if im being honest

[grand tinsel]

Lol. Yeah it annoys most sometimes

[amber dagger]

the sway is annoying but it is the perfect way to balance the sniper in this game

gotta make the gun difficult in some way when there is no movement inaccuracy, no jumping inaccuracy, and the sniper is 1 shot head shot

[gritty sail]

I havent used the sniper in a while i mostly use the 50 cal to snipe

[amber dagger]

respect

++++

[gritty sail]

Its so satisfying

[amber dagger]

fr

[maiden otter]

The sniper isn't balanced. It's just hard to learn. Once you learn it, it is OOOP. Especially you peaking around corners.

[amber dagger]

i think the sniper mechanics are pretty balanced

you aren't going to hit a majority of your shots

maybe they could slow the movement speed with sniper

but otherwise in medium and close range a sniper can easily lose to a rifle

[grand tinsel]

[gritty sail]

I prefer the 50 cal because its behaviour is quite familiar for me because it has no scope. I trained with snipers without scopes in PUBG and i just cant use the sniper to quickscope in cqc due to its heavy weapon sway

[grand tinsel]

I used to use it. Then I got out of practice

[gritty sail]

Same for me with the sniper xD back in the day i could hit everything

[grand tinsel]

Now I use smg and Lmg. Thoses r my true calling

[grand tinsel]

Same lol

Now I’ve realised that the only thing I’m accually ok at is smg and Lmg

[amber dagger]

if anything this recent update just made sniper a bit more OP lol

[grand tinsel]

True lol

[gritty sail]

I think in general the TTK for the AR's is way too high

[amber dagger]

in all ranges?

[gritty sail]

on mid to long range definitely

[grand tinsel]

Ttk ?

[amber dagger]

time to kill

[grand tinsel]

h ok

[amber dagger]

i think on long range it's fair since it encourages the use of long ranged weapons

but yes after the new update at least for the AK mid range ttk is one headshot too slow lol

[gritty sail]

yeah but i think like 10 headshots and more is quite much

I am mostly underwelmed from the M4 and the AKM because i am used to them being really strong

[amber dagger]

pubg player lol

honestly yeah if WB is looking to any other games for inspiration for gun mechanics, it should be PUBG

or COD

[eager robin]

And NOT cs-go

[gritty sail]

yeah😅

[amber dagger]

this game aint going in the direction of csgo mechanics-wise lol

[eager robin]

Deagle

[gritty sail]

you can ads in WB

[amber dagger]

mechanics are not the same as csgo deagle at all

[gritty sail]

PUBG has Deagle too

[amber dagger]

only the recoil is the same

[gritty sail]

yeah the recoil is crazy

[amber dagger]

if joja was trying to make this game like csgo he would not have nerfed the AR and AK

[gritty sail]

Fast clicking with the Deagle is like MK14 spraying with 8x XD

But i think the deagle is quite bad for its heavy recoil

[eager robin]

And tbh, it sounds like the whole intent of the nerfs is to make the LMG more popular, so why don't we just buff the LMG?

The smgs aren't underused

The shotguns are fine

[maiden otter]

That's fair. But on a lot of maps if the user is good enough with it and nobody on the other team is, it can keep everyone from getting close

[eager robin]

Why don't we just buff the LMG

Instead of nerfing the rifles

[eager robin]

The only buff the shotgun needs is to get the bug fixed

[amber dagger]

tis an issue of skill / lack of teamwork then

but i guess it is true that it is unlikely that people will work together just to take down one sniper in a casual game like this lol

[grand tinsel]

Teamwork is very nice in game. Hard to accomplish alot of the time but when it happens worth it usually

[grand tinsel]

Yea. Good idea

[gritty sail]

It would be cool if you could get prone and have fun with your LMG

then it would also make sense to add like a M249 or a MG3 or something

but i heard that there are problems with animations for those weapons

[grand tinsel]

Prône would be nice

[eager robin]

Tis an issue of thou's skill department

[grand tinsel]

Yes

[eager robin]

Pretty sure you are part of the reason why the rifles got nerfed. You 80% of your kills r AR

But I do agree with u

The only counter to a compy sniper is another sniper

[gritty sail]

or a cracked DMR player

[maiden otter]

😆 I had the most kills with the AR before I learned to snipe or use almost any other weapon. There's no undoing the past. But it's very useful.

I think I played for at least a year before figuring out how to get to the menu to change from the AR and the other default weapons. I thought they needed to be purchased or unlocked somehow.

[amber dagger]

LOL

[gritty sail]

It took me like 2h to find it out xD

[grand tinsel]

Yo

[grand tinsel]

Lol

[maiden otter]

This was the first FPS I ever played more than a few times. Quickly addicted.

[grand tinsel]

Yes lol

First fps for me was krunker. I got kranked at smg there then carried over that skill to wb

although it’s extremely different cause no fast movement like bhoping

[amber dagger]

Source Engine-style bhopping in WB when

[gritty sail]

at the beginning I played bot Krunker and WB, but like a year ago i switched over to pubg, now when i play i bring my pubg skill to wb

[grand tinsel]

Tank behoping when?

[amber dagger]

i played a lot of krunker but it wasnt even my primary game lol

i have some decent skins in that game

[grand tinsel]

I did

Too

I play sooooooo much

I had amazing stuff

Then got scammed

3 times

But don’t need good stuff to make my enemies fear me

[amber dagger]

oh i was scammed a dye once

since i didnt know at the time that dyes were really good

[grand tinsel]

I got a brown dye

I had a full set up

Then got scammed

[amber dagger]

literally all i care about in that game is a good karambit and a good sniper skin

[grand tinsel]

Yessir

My friend played it

Was accually the best shotgun player in world

Beat aflack

I doubt you know who that is tho

[fading turtle]

but if you knoe where the target is going then can't u trace them? it doesn't actually hide the aiming reticle by that much

[amber mortar]

Can it just be reverted ? It takes a tiny bit longer for me to beam people in kitchen and somme. Also hunting rifle and sniper in moonbase is best combo, the hunting IS relevant.

[grand tinsel]

Just get used to it. Try it out. This is maybe temporary maybe not

[frail bane]

Why should we get used to a change that the vast majority of people don’t like? Why shouldn’t it be reverted?

[thorny perch]

Is there a reason why this change was made to the rifles??

[azure forum]

personally i think its the smg that needs the nerf

but i kinda think that the nerf was needed i can't lie

maybe I'm biased seeing as I'm an LMG user

[grand tinsel]

… LOL

I play smg and Lmg both. There both as easy to kill with pretty much. Smg does not need any nerfing. Before the rifles were nerfed it was balanced now it’s just a tiny bit better

[eager robin]

From what I've seen. No

I have not seen an increase in LMG usage. Just smg, a already balanced weapon

[grand tinsel]

Agreed

[thorny perch]

Then why did this happen, why did they change the rifles?

[grand tinsel]

Joja wanted to try it out

[thorny perch]

Ah so it's let's see what happens sort of thing, alrighty

[grand tinsel]

Yes

[thorny perch]

:/

[eager robin]

Cuz they thought it would increase the usage of the LMG. Unfortunately, it didn

Didnt

[thorny perch]

Yeah can't say I agree with this decision

[grand tinsel]

Same. I’m getting killed by ak more

[azure forum]

fair enough

i love lmg anyway so i hope it doesn't get nerfed at all

is its hip fire accuracy rubbish or is it just me that finds it way harder to hit shots hip firing with LMG than other weapons

[grand tinsel]

What’s hipfire

[thorny perch]

Firing your weapon without ADSing

Or as the kids back in 2009 used to say,

"NO SCOPE!"

[grand tinsel]

Oh ok

It’s not very bad in cqc

[kind marsh]

Except the part where it does not damage vehicles, but the VEK and VSS do....(least last I checked)

[eager robin]

oh no, vehicles

bro wether or not a gun does damage to a vehicle barely matters. Joja already killed the vehicles

[eager robin]

wait then why u still downvoting this

[kind marsh]

Matters in BR, Matters on maps with vehicles on them - lot of times in kitchen you are up against a half dead vehicle, u just need to take it down 110 Hp load out is auto pistol, SMG, sniper ... APC remains highly lethal to foot soldier via drive over.....

[eager robin]

hmmmm, kinda disagree. From what I can tell from my own playstyle and my friends, all of us just avoid the vehicles. We don't really try and kill them, as it wastes time, and makes you vulnerable from others.

[eager robin]

you forgot the bgm

and airstrike

keep in mind there is eight per team

The only map that actually has a ton of vehicles is are 15 base

and in that case many people just use an rpg

[grand tinsel]

15 and kitchen

[eager robin]

other maps like desert only have 1 apc, and lets be honest, the apcs cant climb up buildings or go between them

[grand tinsel]

yeah

[eager robin]

same thing. most of the time, everyone is on a structure

[grand tinsel]

they shohuld be able to.

[eager robin]

apcs do nothing

[grand tinsel]

climb buildings

[eager robin]

i think i just got a heart attack

and lost braincells

[grand tinsel]

lol

my bad

[eager robin]

all good

wolf revived me

[grand tinsel]

good

[fading turtle]

bit dumb on their part ngl, the High RPM low recoil will ALWAYS be favored

the LMG isn't too gud as a substitute rifle, the SMG handles better at those adverage ranges, then a sniper will pick off the rest

the LMG is a gud gun, but usless pretty much

[frigid salmon]

Which grenade tweak was that?

[frigid salmon]

Was it that grenade bug where any throwables just launch upwards upon left-clicking?

[drowsy salmon]

that was a bug, not update

the update removed a player's velocity from the grenade's

so you could no longer throw as far

[frigid salmon]

Yeah, kinda thought it was that bug, didn't seem like any other thing other than that.

[maiden otter]

I think the auto-sniper has made the hunting rifle pretty redundant. If you have a feel for the sniper bullet drop, there seems no reason to use the HR anymore.

[fluid storm]

HR is still much quicker in short-mid range...

[maiden otter]

What? The time between firing?

[fluid storm]

Yes.

It's honestly closer to a slow-firing Assault Rifle than a sniper

[maiden otter]

The only time I'd prefer the HR now, is if I got caught in a situation right up close with someone, but I'd avoid that with both anyways. Mid-range I'd still prefer the AS, and mid-close, I'd be indifferent.

[maiden otter]

I actually can't tell which one you're describing.

I'd almost say that's true of both, but the AS has a much better range.

[maiden otter]

The HR is noticeably faster, but you only need 2 to 3 hit with the AS, so at medium and mid-short range the AS is fast enough that it doesn't matter much.

[drowsy salmon]

Hunting and Auto Sniper will both need 2 headshots

Hunting has 4 RPS

Auto has 2 RPS

for those medium ranges the Hunting is just too fast for the Auto

[eager robin]

Disagree

[eager robin]

Because the auto does so much damage, it's really affective against players like me who are rarely full health. Cuz I'm too impatient to heal. I have been trolled by this gun many times and it think it is balanced. However I still prefer the hunting rifle because it's kill time is a faster. Bottom line is in clan wars I would use auto-snjper and in regular I would use hunting

[rustic shard]

Is that crouched or standing?

[eager robin]

Standing

There is no crouch icon

[eager robin]

Both r good have have their niche. Good balancing.

[rustic shard]

Sorry wasnt checking. Sometimes people do cropped videos.

[maiden otter]

2 players equally good with them and equally exposed with full health within the HR's range, sure the faster fire rate is going to win.

[maiden otter]

yes. Standing.

The much greater upsides to the auto sniper at longer ranges means I'm pretty much always going to choose it though.

Because the difference at medium ranges is marginal and situations are rarely as equal as what I described above.

[maiden otter]

Fair enough if you think they are.
I'm only about 1000 kills behind Joja with the HR, and the only reason I haven't passed him is because he introduced the AS and I pretty much always use it now instead.

[frigid salmon]

Hunting can be an effective weapon if a user is consistent with their recoil control and tracking. The auto sniper can be deadly in the hands of a user that knows the bullet drop, and can handle the heavier recoil, and also can track.

[drowsy salmon]

actually the auto sniper's recoil was updated and is quite the opposite of heavy

[frigid salmon]

Oh?

Hmm I'll make a mental note of that for next time when I'm playing.

[young plover]

My counterpoint opinion.
Rifles needed the 5 dmg nerf, since they (as others have said) have become the universal weapon. Other weapons basically are never used. The smg and vector should see play on smaller maps, although something likely needs to be done to up shotgun usage for CQC.
To your other point, Sniper probably should get a scope-in time nerf, since its being currently used where the 50 cal should be: as a close/mid range hand cannon. It fills the long range role nicely (great scope magnif, one shot headshot) but its usage in CQC is a bit heinous. I personally think it should play more like an AWP, where you either hit a nasty counter-strafe + crouch no scope (which takes a good deal of practice and skill, and is punishing for a miss), or are hard scoped into an angle/need to hit a great flick. The hard scoped angles also would see counterplay via smokes or flashes (or other forms of displacement).

[drowsy salmon]

While most of what you say there is indeed a good part of the nerf, it does miss the main point of concern which is the balance between the AK and AR.

I would disagree that the Sniper imposes on the .50 Cal or that the Shotgun needs more usage. I would not change either shotgun as they both work well, some bugs to fix aside.

The addition of the third shotgun, our double barrel, should get players interested in shotguns for a while when it releases.

[frigid salmon]

too bad no one else main the two existing shotguns in cqc maps like me

[eager robin]

I disagree. 1. There is nothing wrong with meta weapons. 2. The smgs and shotguns r underused but not bad. Many just don't know how to use them. Just like at plague. Man is a deamon with that thing. Smgs are also not underused. They are literally the crutch weapon in cqc, the range they r designed for. They fit their niche. There is no need for them to fill other niches. I also don't think the .50 cal is unfair. Look at zinc. He's good with it. I don't think the rifles were at any point op. I think more people used it because they r easy to learn. Once people learn the shotgun, hunting, smg or sniper, they will realize that rifles are always kind of mid. The rifles are always more generic, while the other guns have complicated mechanics

[eager robin]

Responding to this btw

[pseudo pelican]

Thanks for giving your two cents!

1. Some of your points are exaggerated. Each category of weapons retains significant use depending on the map. On smaller maps, as you pointed out, SMG and Vector is used often. Medium maps would lead to the deployment of the assault rifles (and long range weapons start to be used at this stage), whereas sniper/hunting are even more common on bigger maps.

2. Your suggestion for a sniper nerf isn't logical. It isn't used often as a hand cannon, neither among regiestered players nor guests. Limited observations as it being used as a hand cannon do not warrant a significant downgrade which will impact all sniper users.

3, As Plague pointed out, a serious issue in the development update is the imbalance between AK and AR rifles, such that the AK no longer maintains any significant edge over the AR. This points to questionable planning when the rifles were nerfed. Hopefully, there is a re-look into the planning process of the nerf, and actions to rectify it.

[young plover]

I acknowledge your point, but I believe you misunderstood what I wrote. Which is fine.

[young plover]

3. No disagreement there, or real opinion there to be honest. Not sure this is even for me. Why there is no bullet drop on the rifles is beyond me, but thats just my personal gripe and not really worth much.

4. I disagree, but see the value of your stance. I was not suggesting a massive scope in time nerf, just a pinch longer. Maybe the lobbies Ive seen Zinc and a few others use it with great success were flukes,
   so granted. However, as a player, you feel cheated going for a peek in close range with a rifle only to get quick scoped by the Sniper.

5. To be honest it doesnt seem like what I put down is being picked up. Might be on me, tbf. I am defending the rifle nerf, to a degree. They should not outclass SMGs or Vectors in CQC maps. We seem to agree on this.
   I am not declaring that Snipers are prevalent at all on smaller maps. Obviously this is not the case: I am concerned with what the quick scope Sniper can do against weapons that should "beat" it (in a fast and loose sense) . 100% accuracy on a fast scope in means players with amazing aim can ego everything at pretty much all ranges. And maybe that is what people want from the game.

But I appreciate the thoughtful response, and again, I can understand where you are coming from. I think some bits are misunderstood, and for others I merely respectfully disagree. Not a big deal: this is my opinion.

[pseudo pelican]

Agreed with almost all your follow up points, thanks!

[young plover]

Having given it some careful thought, I actually have to agree with you on 2. (Re; downgrade). My concern in 2 is a necessary evil. As you mention, nerfs prevent the Sniper from fulfilling the roles it is designed for, even for things as small as bloom/scope speed.

[rustic shard]

Can I get a TLDR on what people want with the rifles?

My original intention was to move the AR's out of the zone where saw the LMG/Hunting Rifle would be allowed to shine. Right now starting from close to far you have SHOTGUN->SMG->AR->Hunting->Sniper. At least that is what I am trying to achieve.

I do agree that the change made the AK/AR differentiation gone.

[eager robin]

Personally. I wouldn't suggest you try and force guns into distance niches. I would say the sniper rifle will beat the hunting at all ranges. But. I do think that hunting rifle is broader and much easier to use, but a sniper is better if players now how to position themselves. In general. I would say that maybe instead of trying to balance them by distance, you can also consider usability. Like the auto-snjper. I would say it's bad, but in my experience it seems to be used even more then regular sniper. That is cuz it's easier to learn. This applies to the hunting rifle too. It is worse then a sniper rifle when both r used to it's full potential. But it's easier to reach that full potential for the hunting rifle.

[pseudo pelican]

The best tl;dr which could be given is for the change to be reversed.

[long trench]

Personally, I’m just looking for the rifles to be returned to their original damage, with the SCAR actually receiving a slight buff (either through like 1 or 2 more damage per shot, no speed debuff, better accuracy etc.)

SCAR is too underused ATM

[pseudo pelican]

Perhaps your intention is for weapons to be used at various distances. Distances are however, dynamic, and what players look for is a versatile weapon which can operate efficiently at most ranges.

As much as there is an interest to nudge players into moving to hunting rifle and SMG, these weapons are not appropriate for every instance.

Maybe, leave players to decide which weapon they would like to use for each occasion - rather than make these changes?

[young plover]

If the rifles are getting reverted, can there maybe be consideration for either very small bloom (tied to RoF) or ballistics?
The first would mean that the rifles could still deal reasonable damage at far range, but would require burst or tap fire. (For the outer mid, and long ranges respectively)
The second would mean that the rifles would require more skill other than "point at the target no matter where on the map they are". Also gives you an extra axis to work with when balancing each of the rifles wrt each other.

Thats just an offhand suggestion though. Neither of those may be wise.

[pseudo pelican]

I don’t see why there’s a need to nerf rifles. Rifles aren’t overpowered to the point that anyone who uses them is instantly good; there is still a wide skill spectrum - just like what we observe from other weapons. That’s why I find it incredibly hard to like your suggestions to complicate the ease of using rifles.

If there are complaints about hunting rifles/SMG being underused, then perhaps have them be the default weapon each new player starts with. It is currently AR and shotgun if I’m not mistaken. It doesn’t provide a guarantee in increasing weapon take up rate, but it makes a lot more sense than degrade the playing experiences of a large segment of the player base who enjoyed the rifles before the nerf.

[grand tinsel]

I agree with this last post by ice bear a lot, I feel like if any weapon is underused, maybe there should be a rotation of default weapons every once in a while. It would expose people to new weapons

[drowsy salmon]

I actually think that a similar result of the nerf could have been achieved by instead changing the distance for damage drop. Instead of a damage reduction on the base damage, just have it fall off earlier. The end result is still that it can't be used as far, but it doesn't hurt the closer ranges; specifically the niche between the AK and AR.

[eager robin]

people thinking that the shotguns are underpowered has never seen Turkey, VorteX or plague play. I use to think they are underpowerd too. and then i started using it myself and found that if used correctly it is ridiculous

This can be said about guns like hunting rifles too

DeciseV is a hunting rifle god

I don't see him yelling for a rifle nerf

[eager robin]

^

[grand tinsel]

HR is insanely good fun if use properly agreed. I’ve had some nice times with it

[drowsy salmon]

Sometimes it's just a matter of a player trying a new weapon and learning it. Often we stick to what we know works because it's safe for us.

[frigid salmon]

See someone gets it.

Underrated weapons are typically not that much used by the larger majority of the playerbase, so some of their potential gameplay performance go under the radar.

[drowsy salmon]

It's where we can communicate to others some of our findings on weapons with good synergy, and maps they work well for.

I very often tell people to consider dropping the AK/Sniper on Southwest and to instead try SMG/Hunting

SMG/Hunting can allow you to use the rocky formations to force closer combat where the SMG wins, and you can use the Hunting to outperform the further fights

and you can work your way around the formations to attack snipers on the outcrops or "pillars" out at each spawn

[frigid salmon]

Ayy glad to see someone else use that loadout.

[white walrus]

too be honest i just want the Ar back to how it was, it might have been overpowered to some but its a good all round weapon, long range where you can just lasers, i prefer the Normal Ar/sniper load out bc both weapons r good but you cant just use sniper to laser someone you cant use it close range but the ar can if u can hip-fire it right.
id just like to see it back to how it was, bc i dont like using it anymore, bc i cant bare the recoil on the Ak, so either i just need to move on or i just dont play.

[frail bane]

shotguns are one of those things that are really OP in certain situations, (because they're shotugns), but quickly fall off after the distance between you and your target increase. I do think the tactical shotgun should be nerfed. Having 12 shots you can spam at somebody is quite strong.

[long trench]

I wouldn’t say nerfed, just overhauled

Less spread, slightly more range and slightly less damage in exchange for 8 shots over 12

[young plover]

Here I would have to flat disagree. A skill differential with a rifle has nothing to do with how the weapon operates and everything to do with the users aim and positioning. Every weapon has a "skill differential" for someone with poor aim to someone with good aim. Same goes for map knowledge.

Its functionally hitscan, almost no recoil (especially not with good breath management and counterstrafe), a 30 round magazine, no bullet drop, and an uncluttered scope. It even used to have way less damage drop off, which could be reverted if ballistics and bloom were introduced.
Good players know to counterstrafe, position, and schmove regardless of what the weapon is.

The HR can be nice. I dont mind it, but it has 10 rounds. For basically all fights, Id rather be packing a Sniper and a Rifle for ranges where the HR makes sense. The sniper one shots and means you risk your life less when peeking. In closer ranges, the rifle is both more forgiving and offers greater 1vX potential since its close range and midrange fighting ability are amazing. Hip firing an HR is an iffy business.

The gun is definitely underused; a weapon rotation would be a good idea. That I agree with. However, IMO the HR is too punishing for too little reward compared to what options exist.

I will caveat this (before I get burned at the stake again for disagreeing with someone) by saying that my opinion is based on playing with and against opponents who are not playing like chickens with their heads cut off.
Against players that are my ELO or higher
-> Good players tend to dip behind cover with Snipers and resurface when their shot is up. The range where the HR might be "good" on Skull Island it is instead unplayable
-> the same goes for much longer maps. There, probably the HR is less reasonable though.
-> It is much rarer for good players to just waddle out of cover so you can take their head off (twice, in the case of an HR). You are bound to miss. For that Id rather have a rifle.

-> Plague makes a good (indirect) point. The positioning makes the weapon good or bad, more or less. The rifle is simply more flexible at nearly all ranges, and the Sniper beats out the longer ranged options for nearly all ranges. (I personally find the DMR to be very satisfying, if still poor against a Sniper). If someone is pushing an SMG or is waltzing into the open to get domed by an HR (or more likely, a Sniper) thats on them, and not really a boon from the weapon. Ive played against that style a bit, and like most of this...you just hold your ground. Take space.

[pseudo pelican]

I disagree with you, time for some burning at the stakes. Which pitch fork should I use?

On a serious note, let me read and write something

[young plover]

Thats fine if you disagree. It seems like every time Ive expressed a different opinion the reaction has been needlessly hostile, so this is nice.
Nice rototiller-rake, by the way

[frigid salmon]

Yes.

[pseudo pelican]

Ah it's not mine, I took it from the pitch emporium subreddit. It's meant to mock those who love lynching people for expressing a different opinion

[young plover]

Gotcha. Yeah the middle one there is really tough to use. Anyways. Have at it.

[frigid salmon]

ooooh. . .umm i would like to retract that statement

[long cradle]

I've had a fair amount of experience in the game, I find rifles to be a powerful weapon, but have seen players do just as well or better with other weapons. While the hunting does take 2 shots to kill, compared to the snipers one shot, I find that a good hunting player is just as good as a good sniper player. I don't mean to brag or say more about myself than I ought, but people have said that I am one of the better sniper players, and I miss many shots, where a good hunting player may not. The auto sniper is now becoming a formidable weapon as well. Not to be hostile, and I hope it is not taken that way, but I think that all the weapons are fairly balanced. I have argued and will continue to do so that the hunting is the best all around weapon. I think no loadout could be better than the hunting and smg if you can master them both, but the hunting is much more difficult to use than the sniper or a rifle, so it is less used

[pseudo pelican]

Thoughts:

1. I get what you're saying about skill differential. No comments from me; it's a valid point.

2. I have my disagreement for the 2nd para. The current rifles differ in attributes like recoil and magazine, while balanced against the damage output. This differentiation is enough for me to not be too comfortable with your position which claims that rifles almost have no recoil. That's the case for the SCAR, and perhaps arguably for the AR. For the AK, there's the feeling of significantly more recoil for inexperienced players. Honestly, I don't feel much recoil from it - but I attribute that to my familiarity of how the weapon feels. I am very comfortable in handling the AK, but there's an unfamiliar feeling when I use the AR, which affects my performance.

3. For the HR, it's a nice weapon. In fact, I used it for quite a few months until I joined Polar, since APOE insisted I use the sniper instead. The sniper produces a great reward by far, but folks like JoJa give us good examples for why the HR is still a very competent weapon. The lack of reduced damage at further distances can elevate the weapon to be as competitive as a player familiar with the sniper rifle. Since this weapon, imo, has always been capable in dealing a punch to other players, I think it's more about marketing HR, rather than degrading other weapons around it.

4. I read the caveat. I hope when players disagree with you, they express their disagreement in cordial and logical manners. Anyone who is rude should have action taken against them promptly.

5. For good players, I find that you can still categorize them into different playing styles. Some as you pointed out, love hiding behind cover and shooting at the right moments. You also get a fair selection of players who play more aggressively. The HR works great on them. I do agree that it is less effective on longer maps, but it's a fair trade off for the lack of fall off damage.

6. Ty for sharing, as always!

[young plover]

Ty to both @long cradle and @pseudo pelican for the responses. Not to worry, disagreement doesnt come across as hostile 😅 I appreciate the politeness.

2. Fair point. The AK is funny in that it feels really bad compared to the AR, and then you learn how to stabilize it where it feels fine.

3. This actually isnt something I thought about, and a really good point. Perhaps in that regard, I should step out of my personal playstyle and give the HR a chance again.

Thanks again for the responses!

[long trench]

All of them. One for each arm.

[eager robin]

I disagree with ur point in the hr. I play it in moonbase a lot. I think you haven't given the gun a fair shot

[rustic shard]

The HR has a high skill ceiling but once you learn it, it is fairly powerful with its two tap head shot.

[amber dagger]

an actually intellectual suggestions thread

crazy

[eager robin]

With u here it's no longer so intellectual

Jk

[young plover]

Rational discussion? Not on my watch! Grenades need to be buffed to kill through walls, you get 15, and deal 6000 damage. This is because I havent ever been able to win a game with only nades. Bad design -420/69

[rustic shard]

I am going to put the rifle damage back to how it was and change the max damage drop off distance to 50 meters less then it was for the AR/AK/SCAR. Damage drop off works such that you have a start distance, and an end distance. The fall off is linear between the start and end distance. Once the end distance is reached the bullet keeps its damage value. So for example say at max distance damage is 20%. If the weapon does 10 damage normally at max distance or greater it will do 2 damage.

[pseudo pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/clap-yay-happy-gif-24565961

[frigid salmon]

Grenades need to be buffed to kill through walls, you get 15, and deal 6000 damage. This is because I havent ever been able to win a game with only nades.
Milky Way Galaxy sized skill issue, but I definitely wouldn't mind a 250% Grenade buff.

[young plover]

Have people actually found good utility from the Implosion over the Frag or Concuss? I havent seen any extra spicy rat spots of late.

[grand tinsel]

I haven’t played so ofc you haven’t seen anything

[young plover]

Kekw

[frigid salmon]

People? I wouldn't really know. As for me, I have so far, but am currently still experimenting more of it and weighing multiple variables and factors between the three of them.

[young plover]

It was an at large "hey, what do you guys think" lol. Noted. I havent had the time to mess around with it is why I ask, and I havent seen it used in matches much

[amber dagger]

@young plover just wondering what other games do you play?

[young plover]

Broodwar, pinches of League and Valo. Terrible at valo. Used to jam Apex.
Honestly dont have much dedicated time to game nowadays, its easier to hop into WB.
(Obviously, theres a bit of Tarkiov, Rust, blah blah blah the usual culprits that most people above 25 have tried at one point or another)

[grand tinsel]

So many games… all I play is rain world Minecraft wb and doom

[amber dagger]

cool

i see where the counterstrafing stuff is coming from now lol

[grand tinsel]

Lol

I used to play krunker

[young plover]

The point firing is in my blood, its too late for me!

[frail bane]

Somebody say VALORANT???

[amber dagger]

no

[frail bane]

oh

[white walrus]

Valorant

[young plover]

Watch this

[frail bane]

Get out of my way!

Ok we should keep this on topic lol

[rustic shard]

FYI, The rifle change should be going live.

[eager robin]

les goo

[distant frost]

well we got our damage back but lost our damage ranges