Team Balancing potential fix

[viral sluice]

A reason why team balancing is hard is because many people leave game mid-way. Ice bear has complained many times about this. Last night, me, wolf, ice and VorteX was playing, and VorteX went offline after the game starts. This forced ice into a 1v2 against me and wolf, and so he lost pretty bad. I think the game needs to do a better job encouraging people to stay for an entire game. The only punishment for leaving game is losing games elo, something no one cares about. We can fix this by maybe displaying both the kills and the games elo on the scoreboard to put more emphasis on games elo, so people are more encouraged to stay for a game.

[rose plume]

A lot of players won't even know that the game even tracks elo - much less one for games and one for kills. Making it much more visible by default would be a good thing.

[covert hill]

They will have to know what elo is first

[sterile jacinth]

you could have a time out for leaving games. like they can't join another server for 30 minutes if they leave a game.

[signal tartan]

I don’t like this at all

As a streamer and as a player the ability to change the gamemode to my situation is what i love about war brokers

And If I only get a five second chance to change game mode or get banned for 30 minutes is just ridiculous

[sterile jacinth]

but when you start a game and then switch it screws the game for the other players that remain. its brutal on kill elo for those that remain

[signal tartan]

To compensate they added a timer speed up if they are really losing significantly enough

But its someone’s choice to play with you or with anyone else

When you start forcing people to play with each other it just causes problems

Valorant I don’t play anymore because it requires a hour of time commitment that I can’t make

[sterile jacinth]

i get that too, so maybe if a plus 1700 player leaves a game, then ELO should be frozen

then you can play the game without elo consequence or you can quit without elo consequence, but when you carry a 1700 elo your starting and quitting carries a lot more weight than when a newb does it. especially if you are playing with a friend like you do from time to time and if they go with you and were on your team, it has major consequences for that game. there just needs to be something that entices people to stay.

[signal tartan]

I still think that is unnecessary

[sterile jacinth]

yeah it doesn't matter that much to me either, i enjoy chasing elo, but i think the potential problems might be worse than their solution. so im not really advocating to change anything, im just spitballin, but it would be nice if pros would stay in a server and not hop, i hate cqb with pros cause they slaughter me so bad, but i do my part to play through the game even though its not my favorite map, im willing to eat the elo drop to make the game more fun for others and then hope for a wider map next go round

[signal tartan]

The game is about having fun

If your fun is tied directly to your ELO then you are probably focusing on the wrong thing

[sterile jacinth]

agreed. but it's no fun for one guy to play against two pros and i think that's the heart of the suggestion.

[signal tartan]

If a game is so skewed maybe a pop up on the right side for both teams that everyone can vote for that says
-Rebalance teams?-
F1 yes
F2 no

If the amount of yes’s are greater then 50% of players from both teams then the words
-rebalancing teams-
Appears in the middle of the screen (maybe it starts the game at five minutes and equal score ) and everyone on each team after rebalanced appears in spawn

But only for the more extreme situations 🫤

[steady grotto]

Aight I just read the suggestion, I disagree adding more stuff to an already congested UI without a rework. Not to mention if people care about stats more than having fun then why play a game, it gets more boring and frustrating when you hit a ceiling of ELO you can't pass if that's all you play for. I used to play for Stats and let me tell you it's NOT fun. Which is why I switched. I do think there should be a rework in how teams balance, maybe do it how Battlefield 4 does it, but use ELO. Halfway through the match you balance the teams based on ELO, so when you die and the system selects you to change teams to balance out you switch to the other team.

[sterile jacinth]

i think playing for stats is a normal progression of the game. i am playing for elo right now, and still find it fun. i am a 1625 player at best right now. i played for missions, then played br like crazy, then played classic til i got decent skills and i find watching my elo to be a challenge, maybe when i get as good as you guys i'll not care about elo, but i think it's a part of a players development in the game to play for elo and stats

[viral sluice]

Naw man. 30 mins is wild

[viral sluice]

This is also very true. Many people dip because they don't like some maps. But they can't dip in time. Because it for some reason takes a while for the game to recognize the people left. @vital vale can we make it so the time between rounds is longer?

[viral sluice]

The players who drastically affect team balancing r the skillful players who know what elo is

[signal tartan]

you don't know why people "dip" so don;t put that as a reason and flame the people that work so hard to make this game at the same time!

[viral sluice]

When did I flame anyone

[viral sluice]

So fax

[viral sluice]

This is another good idea. Can u submit that?

[viral sluice]

Yes. I don't play for stats. But for the people who do, emphasizing games elo can help team balancing. However I also agree that the UI needs a rework for that to happen

[viral sluice]

Elo isn't a measurement of skill. If u watch it too much. U end up just baiting ur teammates and hard targeting the people with high elo..ruining the game for both the guy u bait and the guy u target

[signal tartan]

"the maps are garbage"

they worked hard to make and release those

[viral sluice]

Ur right

Fixed it

[viral sluice]

But like. Do u agree with the extended.time part

[signal tartan]

no

[viral sluice]

Why not?

[signal tartan]

why add any time at all

you and wolf play extremally competitive and this is a chill place for people to hang and have fun

that FORCES people to stay

its not encouragement its discipline

Stay or be punished

[viral sluice]

But I thought I didn't care about the game's elo?

[signal tartan]

I don't

but i want to play the game

[viral sluice]

I was talking about the extended time between rounds

[signal tartan]

extending the round isn't really a good option

why can't people leave at anytime

[viral sluice]

No extending the time between rounds

[signal tartan]

you are taking a freedom that everyone EVERYONE uses and saying extending the time between* rounds will fix it

and it won't

[viral sluice]

Because it ruins the game for the other 7 guys on ur team

[signal tartan]

it doesn't

[viral sluice]

And why does it not?

[signal tartan]

just because you say something doesn't mean its true, if the people in charge did a poll of that situation how often it happens and whether people are actually bothered by it then i would take that

but YOU can't say that with out having proof

and Fixing ONE round that sometimes happens at the expense of a Freedom that EVERYONE uses is just unreasonable

[viral sluice]

I try not to leave game midway because I know it'll screw up the team

[signal tartan]

Man im going to step back from this, I don't wanna get to heated in this

[viral sluice]

Ice bear uninstalled because the team balancing issue caused him to lost terribly to me and wolf. Even though he is clearly the better player

[signal tartan]

I just think this is a bad idea

[signal tartan]

again flaming Ice bear

not needed

doesn't help

[viral sluice]

No that is the proof

He was clearly fustrated

[signal tartan]

you don't have proof

you can guess but there is ZERO proof

[viral sluice]

Because Vortex had to leave. But the game kicked him out after the round started. Even though he left in between

[signal tartan]

again lost terribly to me and wolf

why would you add that

seems more like you are trying to brag

then fix the problem

[viral sluice]

To show that a 2000 elo player is good. But can't carry alone.

If he didn't lose then I wouldn't be making this suggestion

[signal tartan]

"Ice bear uninstalled because the team balancing"

this is a guess

[viral sluice]

No

[signal tartan]

you can't prove this happened

only guess

[viral sluice]

This is not

He stated that in the AI server

[signal tartan]

do you have a photo?

can you PROVE it

and if he did, did he explain why

or are you guessing his intentions also

either way

im out

take this up with someone else

[viral sluice]

I did not get screen shots of him complaining about the team balancing in the WB in game chat

[viral sluice]

Why would u make arguments, but no bother waiting to see my side? Isn't that not really fair?

@wheat horizon we're u not frustrated by team balancing?

[viral sluice]

Again. I wouldn't have made this suggestion if he didn't get frustrated. If he didn't lose why would this be important? Why do u assume my intentions while u accuse me of assuming other?

[wheat horizon]

Jeez what’s going here

Pls calm down you two

You both are cool folks

Make friends

[viral sluice]

He said I'm bragging cuz I brought up the night when u uninstalled

Because Vortex left and ur team sucksd

And apparently I'm bragging rather then fixing problems

Cuz that's my only source of self worth amirite?

[wheat horizon]

Ah that was a joke, I didn’t actually uninstall. I do agree however, that the team balancing wasn’t pleasant. What I lack here is a solution, because the game rightly attributed me to one side (higher ELO), and you both to the other side (relatively lower ELO).

[viral sluice]

Why should I even put suggestions and bring up evidence when everyone is gonna flame me for bragging at the slightest turn

[viral sluice]

I the reason why the balancing was off is because the game loaded in VorteX, even though he already left

[signal tartan]

Bottom line, I agree team balancing is a problem, I think the suggestion as a potential fix is not what we need

[wheat horizon]

Yeah but Vortex prob had some thing irl, I personally don’t blame anyone for leaving as much as it makes my game more difficult to play

[viral sluice]

So maybe we extent the time between rounds

[wheat horizon]

Then I’ll die even more to you both

[viral sluice]

No. Because the team balancing would have been different

[wheat horizon]

Hmmm like if people join in during the round?

[viral sluice]

No. More time between rounds so the game can recognize people leaving

[signal tartan]

Panzer had a Good idea

[faint bridge]

Might be worth making a separate suggestion for this...

[viral sluice]

I filled up my quota

Maybe u do it if u agree with jt

[coarse sequoia]

Ok, it shouldn't do that but there needs to be an incentive to stay in the game. People leaving mid match is probably the thing ruining those other gamemodes other than TDM.

[signal tartan]

There doesn’t HAVE to be an incentive to play the game

And again if your incentive to get people to play the game

By disciplining them

Thats not a huge incentive

I agree that team balancing needs to be done and it will be a big challenge

But for a chill game that is non toxic and low competitive

i think trying to add a punishment is the wrong way to make people play more

[rose plume]

Way too extreme. A high-rating player leaving the game can upset the balance and be annoying, but it's not a serious crime.

And adding more time between rounds slows things down for people who just want to play. We have 20 seconds.

[coarse sequoia]

Ok. Team balancing should be done, and don't get me wrong, it should not be done by punishing others. What I meant by incentive is to have a reward for staying.

[rose plume]

Usually a carrot is better than a stick. Perhaps give some kind of reliability rating for staying in rounds without quitting mid-round, and maybe give bonus skins for people who keep that high enough.

[signal tartan]

skins or broker bucks is a no

that is a place of income

[rose plume]

The other option is simply allow people to vote on rebalancing if it gets sufficiently unbalanced and rebalancing would improve it. (of course, if you have one really good player online, it may not be possible to have a balanced team)

[signal tartan]

giving that Away for playing the game is just no

I think panzer made a good point and need another look at

[rose plume]

I'm thinking a single piece of equipment which could have various tiers - visible to show off your reliability, but not enough that you don't want the other stuff.

[signal tartan]

huh

gonna need someone in charge to make THAT choice but i think that could work

[rose plume]

For example, if you could have a special hat, with various tiers, you're still gonna want all the other skin options in the shop.

Maybe a hat isn't the best example, but something like that.

[sterile jacinth]

are games balanced by kill elo or game elo

[viral sluice]

Kills

[green cove]

first thing I think of is when I have a lag spike and get disconnected briefly

now what happens is when I have a brief downtime, I am restricted from playing for 30 mins

completely out of my control

_ _
there are two sides to the same coin in what you are suggesting

one is to punish people for leaving

the other is to reward people for staying

they are effectively the same thing, but have a slightly different focus

not saying this is how it should be done, but let's say you get a coin for every round you sit through fully

players now have something that incentivises them to stay

but they still have the freedom to leave without being punished for it

[covert hill]

I would agree with that
I was just a bit concerned that it would turn out a 4v8 situation or smth

[rose plume]

I was in a round on Cologne yesterday and we got spawn-camped so hard. I could get out and get some kills, but the rest of the team was getting squashed, and I had a lot of deaths too. By the end, it was something like 4v8 because people on my team gave up and quit.

I don't know what the balance was like at the start, but by the end it was really bad.

[signal tartan]

look at what panzer said yall

he made a great idea so look at that

[sterile jacinth]

i meant 3 minutes, not 30 minutes, but i didn't correct myself because it was buried so far back in the convo i didn't think it would matter, but 3 minute delay still seems reasonable for chronic game hoppers. maybe one freebie then 3 minute delay or something. still i think panzer had a good idea, and i really like the one coin for every completed game idea you had, there needs to be a way to earn some more coins anyways, one coin loyalty incentive is an awesome idea

[green cove]

some people hop between a few servers looking for a server to play in

they look for a decently populated server with what looks like a good selection of players

this would hurt the people who check a few servers before settling

[sterile jacinth]

i assumed they were balanced by kill elo, what if they were balanced by game elo? game elo gets penalized for leaving early anyways. switching game balancing to game elo instead of kill elo might be a super easy fix, then you could tweak the penalty for leaving even harder against game elo without upsetting kill elo. and it would actually be a legit metric.

[green cove]

I believe it was

then it switched to kills ELO

[green cove]

there are issues with team swaps mid-round

[frozen walrus]

The game elo suggestion is a really good idea. It would encourage people to stay in rounds and play for the win instead of farming kills in vehicle escort.

[rose plume]

Actually, kills elo probably shouldn't be adjusted in game modes such as vehicle escort where the objective is incompatible with going for a good kill ratio.

I get a lot of cheap kills when the other side is escorting, and then a ton of deaths when I'm escorting. These kills and deaths aren't really reflective of my skill in terms of getting kills and avoiding being killed, since the game mode forced everyone to behave in a way that makes one side or the other easier to kill.

[hearty swallow]

Good suggestion. ELO needs to be recognised a bit more for the comp scene to actually start working again

[vital vale]

Should we make one ELO that factors in kills and games ELO or make Games ELo the displayed ELO? Making games ELO more important would definitely make people try to win and finish out a complete match.

[vital vale]

Hrmm, will need to think about this some more. I guess technically if you leave matches mid game your games elo would go down if the team ends up losing without you there.

[frozen walrus]

I think displaying your current games elo at the end of a match would incentivize players to finish the round out. A large number of people would naturally compete to have the highest games elo and would possibly work towards winning rather than playing solely for kills.

[rose plume]

Why not display both prominently?

BTW, you probably shouldn't get an adjustment to your games elo unless you were in the game for more than 60 seconds. It's not really fair to penalise you - or reward you - if you join at the end of a match that's already decided.

[green cove]

it doesn't change if you join at the end of a match

MJD took in player's concerns back in the day

both for players who like to swap between servers when looking for one to settle in, and for players who join late

(MJD is the dev who implemented the ELO system in WB)

you can verify that your games ELO doesn't change through the POMP's Mod setting

you'll need to play a whole round to have any changes

_ _
At the very least, games ELO on modes that aren't TDM makes sense. I have seen people type in chat to vote for modes like tank so they can get more kills. Players are treating other modes like TDM. These modes shouldn't have the focus on kills rather than completing the objective.

[rose plume]

I just made a suggestion that should fix that.

If kills elo isn't adjusted in those game modes, cheap kills won't boost your elo. Then the only thing you have to go for is games elo, which means you actually have an incentive to play in a way that helps the team, rather than going for cheap kills that may or may not help the team. You also have an incentive to play both halves of the escort battle.

[viral sluice]

make games elo the displayed one.

[viral sluice]

wut a chad