I will try and be less critical and more formal this time. I think spawn prot should disappear after you have done a certain amount of damage. You still have a great advantage against spawn campers, cuz you get the first shot. But I think it will make spawn prot a lot less annoying. If someone stays in their spawn, they can shoot at me freely. They are basically given free map control. Make it so that they get an advantage, but still need to work for map control. I think spawns should also be smaller in some maps. A lot of spawns are very close to key points in the map. Like are 15 bunker. An example of a good spawn is in office, where fights in key points are balanced. A bad example is area 15 bunker and kitchen. In area 15 bunker. It is not good because the entire map is a spawn, so a guy can be invincible pretty much everywhere, including important key points. In kitchen, a guy in spawn does not need to risk anything to force enemies from peeking and gain map control. Yes we can just find better cover, but by doing so we give them map control and we become less useful for the team, because a guy with spawn prot has forced us behind cover, and we lost hard fought ground.
#Spawn protection should disappears once a player has done enough damage.
balmy root
@exotic patio this is kinda a continuation of our discussion a while ago. It's just more points I forgot to make, a revised suggestion, and a more respectful manner
Also. I would like to know how much damage is enough to remove spawn prot. I would say 200 or so. But this number could be tweaked
prime pumice
I would say that you should lose spawn protection instantly if you do any damage. Spawn protection should let you get first shot if you're getting spawn-camped, but once you decide you're ready to fight, you're ready to fight.
exotic patio
Is this from the attacking side?
So once a player that is attacking with spawn protection has inflicted enough damage to others, they will lose their spawn protection?
If so, 200 is too low as spawn camping is still the reason it's provided to begin with. Normally in a bad situation you have multiple enemies and losing the protection partway into one enemy is going to be dreadful. Next to pointless.
It's an even bigger issue if it's after they receive what would be 200 damage, the protection is removed.
I think we were able to deduce that we don't quite agree on Kitchen, that's fine.
Area 15 Bunker though... that issue comes down to where the spawn protection is allowed. The solution is to fix where a player loses it.
My theory is that the game is coded to remove the protection after you enter neutral ground. Area 15 Bunker does not have that, but rather has two spawns next to each other covering the entirety of the map. This means that an enemy might be able to spawn and run into the enemy spawn with spawn protection still up.
It should be added into the logic that entering enemy spawn also removes spawn protection. After that simple fix, the issues I believe are all resolved.
topaz iron
In my opinion, most maps are just fine. I agree that Area 15 bunker might need some work. But for the other maps I am more likely to say to stay out of enemy spawn if spawn protection bothers you.
balmy root
So once a player that is attacking with spawn protection has inflicted enough da...
Yes
red ibex
I think once the player with spawn starts shooting, their spawn pro. should go away
because it is meant for people to not die before they load, and to not get killed while they are not ready however if they are shooting they are clearly engaged
balmy root
In my opinion, most maps are just fine. I agree that Area 15 bunker might need s...
Ok. But here is the thing. U can be killed by a guy with spawn prot even when ur not in spawn. Why should the spawn prot do damage to people outside of spawn? And if your reason is to take cover, that means your giving up space, and ur giving up impact for the team.
exotic patio
I could argue the same to not charging into a hall with five players.
You're not pumping out the impact, but it's plain dumb to go there still.
exotic patio
because it is meant for people to not die before they load, and to not get kille...
actually it's mostly intended to guard against spawn camping
balmy root
You're not pumping out the impact, but it's plain dumb to go there still.
Ok but here is the thing. U don't know whether they have spawn prot unless u peak them
Maybe we can make so it shows who has spawn. Prot and who doesn't. So like the pink outline will show immediately after peeking
exotic patio
If you're pulling off proper peeks, you're fine. You would have likely died regardless if you really did get killed from a good peek.
balmy root
If you're pulling off proper peeks, you're fine. You would have likely died rega...
Ok. But u don't need a good peek to get a kill when you have spawn prit
exotic patio
You're not going to be peeking if you just spawned...
You'd have to be on a map where you choose where to spawn, and the spot you want is within the spawn range.
Let's say the shelf in kitchen.
Any veteran would know to watch the candles up there for any players and to be aware of spawn protection. The thing here is, if they're spawning in then they don't know where players are at yet.
They have to go looking before they can open fire.
balmy root
You're not going to be peeking if you just spawned...
No I'm talking about the attacking team
exotic patio
Exception is kill cam.
Ok. But u don't need a good peek to get a kill when you have spawn prit
Does this not describe someone who has spawned and is getting a kill?
balmy root
> Ok. But u don't need a good peek to get a kill when you have spawn prit
Does t...
I don't understand what u r saying. I was talking about where you said it was dumb to peak into 5 guys, and I said well it doesn't take 5 guys if they have spawn prot involved.
balmy root
Any veteran would know to watch the candles up there for any players and to be a...
Ok. And what would any veteran do once they see a guy up there?
They run for cover
Instantly decreasing team impact
exotic patio
A veteran is already situated in a good spot, or is in the process of travel.
balmy root
Cuz now there is a guy up their taking half the map. We just lost a big chunk of map control
exotic patio
You might make a pot shot as you travel, but you're not leaving yourself open like that.
exotic patio
They have to go looking before they can open fire.
^
balmy root
A veteran is already situated in a good spot, or is in the process of travel.
Ok. If a veteran is situated in a good spot. And they see someone on the minimap. They make a good peek. That find the dude has spawn prot. The dude knows how to shoot a sniper. Bam. Half the health gone. Even if u would have hit ur shot, u still take an L. Now you gotta crouch to heal
exotic patio
You lost me at "half the health gone"... if you made a good peek and they've just spawned in, they don't know where you are yet. The first they can learn of you being where you are is following the peek.
If you're losing half your health, you were in the open too long.
This is where I think we may differ in opinion. Playstyle options.
I get the feeling from what you put forward that you are all about fast-paced action to pump out numbers, and that anything that slows you sown and results in you having to lie low and disengage is bad.
To me, it is an integral part of a player's arsenal to be able to make the tactical decisions on when to engage and when to disengage. It's what can allow you to still get a kill on a full health enemy on 34 health left.
It's a minor slow down to let a group pass through, to get a better end result on the other end
balmy root
You lost me at "half the health gone"... if you made a good peek and they've jus...
Bro. How do u know they just spawned in. Spawn prot is 10 sec
balmy root
You lost me at "half the health gone"... if you made a good peek and they've jus...
Snipers can do half the damage
balmy root
You don't clearly, that's why you made the shot.
Wdym
exotic patio
Bro. How do u know they just spawned in. Spawn prot is 10 sec
responding to this
I'm saying you don't know. You wouldn't be shooting if you knew they had it.
balmy root
Then after you shoot, you see it.
And they shoot back. If the guy is good. They can take a good chunk
exotic patio
They also don't know where you are though. What you end up with in the worst situation I can imagine is that you make a good peek, you see them, shoot, find out they have spawn protection. They now know where you are because they saw your peek. You wait out the spawn protection and maybe change position, maybe not. You both know your positions and it's down to any normal encounter where you both know each other's position.
balmy root
Here is the thing. Spawn protection should protect people from being peeked. Not to give them an advantage in fights. if I knew the guy had spawn prot. I would have peeked. Maybe making the spawn prot more obvious will do the same thing. Either way the dude doesn't die
exotic patio
I don't think it has ever given an actual unfair advantage. The only advantage they have is minor and correlates to defending their spawn. The sole exception is the issue with AR15 Bunker and having spawn protection in enemy spawn. Unintended.
balmy root
They also don't know where you are though. What you end up with in the worst sit...
Minimap bro. A good player knows where I am. From kill cam to minimap. I have done this before. Where I just hold the guy the second I spawn in
So they know where I am. I know wheret they are
exotic patio
Minimap doesn't give the y level.
balmy root
Minimap doesn't give the y level.
Kill cam
exotic patio
It gives a general idea, not very precise.
exotic patio
Exception is kill cam.
^
If you think that you are going to be safe in a spot by staying there, I would call the person silly.
balmy root
It gives a general idea, not very precise.
Yes. And any good player can flick immediately on the head. We just need to know the general direction
exotic patio
If a sniper is in a tower in Escape and kills five players, where is the first place those killed players are looking?
The tower.
If I killed five players from a tower, you better hope I'm changing position.
If I die, I know I was asking for it.
balmy root
If I killed five players from a tower, you better hope I'm changing position.
If u kill me. I'll will preaim that. Even if u only get 1 kill
exotic patio
Yes. And any good player can flick immediately on the head. We just need to know...
Show me one clip anywhere where a player is able to keep up a level of play where they can rapidly lock onto a player they haven't died to on kill cam, they got peeked on, and are able to pull off the kill within the time of that peek. From general direction to the specific spot of the head.
balmy root
And if even a tiny bit of ur head sticks out. I will roll u with a sniper
exotic patio
I never had that happen, even against BMB players.
balmy root
Show me one clip anywhere where a player is able to keep up a level of play wher...
In school rn. But I will come home and show u later today
exotic patio
I've peeked in front of Hori before. I don't think I have ever seen sniping that is literal aim bot level.
balmy root
Ok. But even if it doesn't show the y level. We can still take a guess.
And it still gives us a good chance that we preaimed to the right y level
exotic patio
Then let's run a situation through, just so I'm getting what you're saying.
Let's say you are on the minimap.
Player has spawned in with spawn protection, and they know your general location.
They have a rough idea of where you could show up.
balmy root
Yes
exotic patio
They are pre-aiming and ready to make a shot on you.
Now... let's remove spawn protection from the equation.
Aren't you still likely to die?
balmy root
Aren't you still likely to die?
No cuz I also know where they are. I don't peek random places. I peek at places where I know there is a dude
exotic patio
I'm just struggling to see the issue, that's all. I'm trying to walk through ideas until I can kind of see what you're trying to put forward, or until we've reached some kind of mutual understanding.
balmy root
And plus. Even if I don't. Likely to die is different from 100 percent death
exotic patio
No cuz I also know where they are. I don't peek random places. I peek at places ...
So then how do you learn where someone is in the first place?
exotic patio
And plus. Even if I don't. Likely to die is different from 100 percent death
I wouldn't call it 100% in either situation.
The only difference is that you don't have the option of landing a shot, which may have been a faster shot and landed on them.
But they have JUST spawned, so I don't know why you're going to know they are there and be ready to peek on them.
balmy root
I wouldn't call it 100% in either situation.
But which one am I more likely to win. The one where I can do damage. Or the one where I cant
balmy root
So then how do you learn where someone is in the first place?
Cuz they r on the map
Someone on the team saw them
balmy root
But they have JUST spawned, so I don't know why you're going to know they are th...
So they have spawn for 10 sec
balmy root
Nah bro I gotta go to chem.
exotic patio
ah alright
was going to ask about your playstyle
separate from this issue at hand
your style I'm hearing revolves around letting the team spot, and then you come in to kill the spotted enemies
you'll have to tell me if that's me hearing it right or wrong, or somewhere in between
topaz iron
Ok. But here is the thing. U can be killed by a guy with spawn prot even when ur...
Most maps are fine in my opinion. If you have enough experience then you know that how closer you get to the enemy spawn, the higher the risk that you will get in a situation like that. (again, area 15 bunker is an exception.). If you are close to the enemy spawn, you know the risk and maybe you should not keep pushing if you are alone (or camping near enemy spawn). You can just simple avoid those situations.
exotic patio
His issues lie with maps that are more open, like Kitchen.
I see no issue, he sees issue.
topaz iron
But isn't that the same? If you know the situation, you have to anticipate..
exotic patio
We previously explored it. We both know that we're going to see it different, and that happens.
topaz iron
If I see someone with protection, I will just avoid the player.
exotic patio
But isn't that the same? If you know the situation, you have to anticipate..
That's how I see it. I have never had issues with the map and spawn protection.
There are patterns to where players spawn, and I know what to look out for.
topaz iron
Me neither.. I can only agree with 15 base
exotic patio
Bunker?
topaz iron
yeah, sorry
exotic patio
heh
I don't think anyone can look at someone coming into your spawn being fair
I thought Joja was going to fix that though...
topaz iron
I never got fully bothered by it, cuz the protection never last long.. But yeah, it still happen sometimes.
exotic patio
I may have to record someone running in I suppose. That should get something going.
I love bunker.
It's a minor inconvenience when it does happen, but it's a low occurrence.
It's nothing like GL on Tribute was.
topaz iron
Well, there is a spawn, lets call it the outer ring... and 1 spot, is pretty close to the center spawn.. And that's the only one that I know it might happen sometimes
lemme see if i can point it out
I think it's this one... iirc
topaz iron
yeah
exotic patio
it's pretty simple to just be careful
normally because I'm looking down the hall
but that also means I tend to be more ready if a guy has come into my spawn
topaz iron
So maybe that part of the spawn should be wiped. There are plenty of other spots to spawn.
exotic patio
I just think the logic should be there to strip spawn protection in an enemy spawn. I see no issue in adding it as there is 0 reason to have protection in an enemy spawn.
topaz iron
just as soon as you leave yours.. but I though it was already like that.
exotic patio
It is. For neutral ground.
Issue is Bunker has none. It's all spawn.
So there's never neutral ground to touch and remove it from you.
topaz iron
Maybe there should be added a neutral ring around the center
just something like this
exotic patio
seems reasonable enough to me
topaz iron
At least will it remove the spaw protection as soon as you get in or out the center
balmy root
Most maps are fine in my opinion. If you have enough experience then you know th...
Ik. U can always just take cover. But by doing so you u lose ground. So ur team loses spaces, and gets less map control
balmy root
But isn't that the same? If you know the situation, you have to anticipate..
How do u know the situation? How do u know if a guy has spawn prot without peeking him
balmy root
If I see someone with protection, I will just avoid the player.
Again. Once u see them. U could be dead
Sry for all the pings
topaz iron
I usually don't peek like that. I prefer to secure an area than keep pushing them back in their spawn. If I know I am close to the enemy spawn, then I know I might face the issue that they have protection, so why should I take that risk? I avoid that risk and just secure areas and let them come to me instead. Cuz if they come to me, they are out of spawn and I can kill them, and I have time to think how I going to deal with the enemy approaching me.
And believe me, you wont lose space if you secure locations and protect them
balmy root
And believe me, you wont lose space if you secure locations and protect them
U secure the counter in kitchen. U get nay nayed
topaz iron
Everyone plays different. Lets keep it like that.