Wilderness Worldhop is bad design for Wilderness Gameplay

[small light]

Currently, all PvP encounters in the Wilderness gravitate around gameplay centered around any player's ability to World Hop or Log Out.

If you are a PKer hunting players, you need to world hop through hundreds of worlds to find people.

If you are an "escaping" player, your most efficient form of escape is to get out of combat long enough (10 seconds normally) so that you can log out or world hop. This usually involves either running off screen far enough, or freezing the PKer and standing on them until you can log out, or playing around going up and down stairs and ladders until you break combat long enough to log out, or getting boxed by an NPC or friend long enough to X log after 60 seconds.

If you are an "escaping" player, you may also be using the "Wildernes Player Alarm Plugin" for RuneLite which, is apparently legal, and will make your screen flash bright red if another player appears in the Wilderness, allowing you to instantly logout before a PKer can possibly ever get close to you. Or if they worldhopped right next to you, you can log out before that PKer's game even finishes loading in for him to attack you.

PKers can also just worldhop directly onto your position, if they know where you are, and if they are worldhopping safespots, they are likely to naturally do so. In fact, entire clans can do this to.

It's hard to articulate but I find this dynamic of "combat being based around logging out" to be unhealthy.

Like imagine if the optimal strategy to cap in Castle Wars was to get the flag, and then go downstairs, and log in to an empty world, then run home, then hop back to the minigame world and cap.

In fact it used to be impossible to instant-hop like we can now. Have we accidentally gone backwards at some point?

In an alternate world where instant-logging or wilderness worldhop weren't a thing, players wanting to survive would focus more on being able to escape all the way back to a safe zone, and bringing the adequate supplies to do so.

In fact I believe the current system of wilderness worldhopping creates unrealistic expectations for players about how the Wilderness is supposed to work.

However if we changed how logging out in the Wilderness works, it would definitely seem a lot harder than how things are now, due to not being able to instant-log, but there would be a benefit to this even for the "mouse" players in cat-and-mouse because there would be more emphasis and design space to develop mechanics that facilitate better and more interesting ways for "mice" to escape, such as counters to being frozen or allowing them to be a little more tanky.

If gameplay were more based on your ability to survive your way to a safe zone, "funny" suggestions like from this post could become a real possibility for design space.

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1iil16l/funny_wilderness_escape_items_proposal/

[desert wyvern]

Alright, I agree with the sentiment here- but do you have any alternatives to the current system in mind?

[small light]

I do!

Or rather, my friend Danil445 came up with an interesting system.

One potential solution, is a concept called "Forinthry Gates".

They could look like this:

The premise is that there are around 5 obelisks in various places around the Wilderness.

These "Forinthry Gates" would be the ONLY places you can instantly log-out or worldhop within a 7x7 radius of them, and they have 10 seconds of spawn protection when logging in.

If you are not near one of the Forinthry Gates, then whenever you try to log-out or worldhop, your ability to do so will depend on whether or not there are other players within visible range of you.

If there is nobody nearby, you can still instant-log. However, if a player is detected within visible distance, there will be a 30 second delay before you can log-out, which will be interrupted if you enter combat.

This means if someone is nearby, you will have to focus on either fighting back, or actually fully escaping.

However this alone, I would not recommend due to other problems with the design of the Wilderness - as this would practically only be a nerf to the gameplay for "mice" players and a buff/nerf to "cat" players.

Between me and my friend though, we have been coming up with a series of solutions that work together that improve certain things, while things like wilderness worldhop are cut back on.

For this thread I just want a discussion about the wilderness worldhop gameplay though. Our other ideas I think would justify this idea a lot more, but this thread would get way too huge if I put it all here ^^

[indigo ether]

I feel the delay will be used for trolling

Just stand there and just follow someone to not let them log without X logging if they need to hop to find an open world (Like Wildly Slayer)

[strange laurel]

"If you are a PKer hunting players, you need to world hop through hundreds of worlds to find people."

i dont go near the wilderness anymore because personally pvp in my honest opinion is dead

closest comparison is gta v online used to be the best thing ever, then the oppressor mk2 came out and killed it, this is the voidwaker, you can literally die in a tick these days, xp drops let people play a lot different than the OG days where you hit and hope

i highly doubt this will change, wont ever get enough traction, the community's reps (streamers) are all the type of players that can sweat it out and see an xp drop and run in and voidwaker before you can even eat or see what's happening to the average player

and yes, player alert alarm shouldnt exist, but i could go on all day about how i think the wilderness should be based on my opinion but think the reality is, it aint gonna happen

people never ever used to "world hop" for fights, likely because you knew if you go in the wilderness and get attacked, you aren't gonna die in 2 seconds

[small light]

Oops I was posting in the wrong channel.

---

My friend Danil445 also had some other interesting concepts for items that can make "escape" gameplay more interesting and variable.

Such as boots for infinite running in the Wilderness, and wilderness imps that drop a "decoy bead" that can transmogrify you into an imp with 2 decoy clones that run away.

---

One of my own thoughts on escape gameplay design, for something like a specific location in the Wilderness, would be something like having the Yama stepping stones somewhere, which are stepping stones you can much more quickly and smoothly jump past with little or no tick-delay.

For example, they could redesign the Wilderness Agility course to include a long stretch with Yama stepping stones, and the agility obstacle could become like an escape mechanic for "mice" players.

Or near the rope-swing over a pit of spikes - there could be an option to intentionally jump down into the spikes, which at the risk of damage, could let you escape your pursuer - unless they're crazy enough to jump down with you and also take that spike damage... but also that could put them at risk of getting anti-PKed.

However this kind of change on its own, will just make already difficult to kill players even harder to kill for PKers, and wouldn't be fair. Plus the spike pit shortcut would just let people log-out instantly.

So things like all of this I feel would only work if logging out were more limited.

[indigo ether]

This is getting convuluted.

[small light]

That's a good point.

The other idea was that the window to log-out from combat in the Wilderness could be 30 seconds instead of 10 seconds.

[small light]

The problems of the wilderness, I've found, are as convoluted too. They're a big entangled mess and are not solvable by any 1 solution alone, but rather require an intricate set of solutions.

It's impossible to talk about all of the flaws of wilderness design without the topic getting extremely long imo.

I haven't even gotten into balance of risk/reward, skill gap problems, casual vs top-tier gameplay, how the polling system is anti-thetical to multiplayer PvP balancing, etc.

[strange laurel]

theres already plugins that show names, even using a morph, this wont work

& there are extended staminas that last like 8 mins or so a sip, so 1 slot could last 20 mins for 1 slot

people want max hits, the boots sound cool but i dont think many would actually choose a stamina boot for a risk area, over lets say dragon boots - again only my opinion

[grizzled pendant]

I feel like this solution is geared to help player hunters and not players trying to survive, many times if a pker is in non budget gear you have a few hits to get out or die, let alone run a quarter of the way through the wilderness

[small light]

That is exactly the point, it's a move to hunt/escape gameplay instead of logout gameplay.

But indeed I think on its own is not fair for survivor gameplay.

Though I wouldn't say just a few hits - you would want to bring an inventory of food.

[small light]

That's a good point on the imp, I suppose that won't work.

The boots I think are more for the "mouse" kind of player. But I suppose stamina potions might kinda invalidate it too? Maybe maybe not. Some PKers might not bring stams.

I do like the shield ideas from the other post though.

[strange laurel]

also maybe abusable in the spider boss in wildy too, because the webs drain stamina, boots giving infinite stam and increased regen seems a bit abuse potential

[grizzled pendant]

Most if not all players don’t want to be looted pinatas for pkers, turning the wilderness more favored towards the people hunting will make less people willing to go there to get stuff

[small light]

Well the idea isn't necessarily just making it favored towards hunters. The "mice" players would ideally get more escape options.

I believe there should be a balance between "PKer feels like it's viable to get kills" and "Survivors feel like it's viable to escape alive".

[small light]

Hmm, abusable for fighting the boss, or abusable in terms of player to player interactions near the boss?

[grizzled pendant]

Well, all your proposition brought up was how to make it harder to escape

[small light]

Well I posted ideas for escape gameplay too

[strange laurel]

both, for pking, anti pking, or somebody just getting ganked at the boss trying to get a first kc - and against the boss, aranea boots make scerachnis however its spelt a joke of a fight ignoring the webs

[grizzled pendant]

Infinite stamina boots would be used by the pkers as well, any tool you give for people to run away will be used by the people hunting players as well

[small light]

Exactly

[grizzled pendant]

So what advantage does someone have if all their escape tools aren’t gaining them an advantage

[small light]

Well, I can concede that one might not be as interesting - waddya think about the shields though from the reddit post?

[grizzled pendant]

What Reddit post

[small light]

#1484768111633760337 message

My take on those:

Vine Shield - pretty alright as-is

Void Shield - needs only teleport the player to a tile they can walk to

Gas Shield - this could be a smoke bomb item and is great for both an "escaping" player and PKers, it would be an alternative to mithril seeds and quite strong for everyone

---

The other stuff: Funny, I'm kinda indifferent.

[grizzled pendant]

Entangle shield is just the entangle spell, smoke shield just locks you in place making you have to play “Winston bubble”, teleport shield is just rng

The rest of the proposed items in the Reddit post aren’t advantages since they can all be used by both players

[small light]

I see a lot of potential that smoke cloud concept.

Let's say if you use it, it keeps you in combat. And you can just deploy it whenever with a 2 minute cooldown.

But you could use it to counter a freeze or counter being DD'd as you try to escape. Essentially it's a 20 second stall and can let you wait-out whatever is going on for a bit, giving yourself time to react - though also giving the opponent time to prepare.

As a DD counter it's an alternative to mithril seeds.

Or if you're the PKer, you can do that 'Winston' bubble thing or have a moment of technically being able to DD anywhere for a little bit, which I'm personally fond of because I used to do that in Stealing Creation which literally had this mechanic.

However doing that as the PKer wouldn't matter if they're just chasing someone down.

[grizzled pendant]

In the end, most of these just favor the pker while not providing anything of value to the person being targeted

[broken nova]

i dont think u want ppl spawning smoke everywhere tho this would become obnoxious fast

[small light]

oh if a clan does it that would be crazy, that's a very good point too

[strange laurel]

or bots, all using it, simultaniously to get a quick logout

[small light]

they wouldn't be able to logout because it keeps the person who used it in combat

and forinthry gates

[broken nova]

long cooldowns are also just a lame way to balance anything imo

[small light]

Vengeance, special attacks, tb, ice barrage, isn't OSRS PvP already centered around long cooldowns and drawn out fights?

[strange laurel]

yeah but this is where you add in extra steps, currently its like 5 seconds
when youve got 50 bots all at wildy agil, all spamming a smoke thing (not read what you mean but i assume like a smoke grenade) to stop the attacker see where they are, its enough to distract to get to the ladder, wait 5 sec and log

[broken nova]

u dont want more and more mechanics that revolve around pressing some OP button every so often

vengeance being spammed on cd to get free dmg is the most boring use of it

[small light]

people use it to combo with specs. there's timing and reading your opponent and countering their spec with it

not something you just use randomly every time

[broken nova]

yeah i know but ppl also just use it for free dmg everytime its up

[small light]

well they're not doing as good in PvP probably then xD

[small light]

yea I suppose smoke bombs don't scale well, maybe save that idea for a silly minigame

[broken nova]

tb/ice barrage isnt what i mean by cooldowns

[small light]

fairy 'nuff

The only other solution ideas I have are simple in execution but I would have to write a book to explain them so I won't get into it right now.

But here's my question:

Maybe even though there doesn't seem to be quite a great obvious solution to the problem I bring up in the original post - what do you guys think about the sentiment there?

[minor widget]

Yeah I basically agree with the sentiment that logging out is a very antisocial way to engage with other players. At least when we had boxing there was an added barrier that you had to find a monster to box, then x-log

That being said, adding barriers to this type of interaction seems to be the solution. Yeah it makes it harder to escape, but I think that a more dangerous wilderness is a more fun wilderness

[jovial socket]

If I am being honest, it really seems like every suggestion you are adding here works in favor of Pkers. Not everyone is good at PKing, and that's not a bad thing. Someone like Gnomonkey can be PvM god but that doesn't mean he's any better at PvP than an average PKer.
The Wilderness is already unfavorable for most pvmer and skillers. Adding more restrictions will only make it even more disliked. Players engage in Wilderness PvM because they feel they have a somewhat fair chance of escaping rather than always being a free loot for pker.
During DMM, the logout timer existed and it was very annoying for general use. Your suggestion of using obelisks for instant logout feels irrelevant. Obelisks already exist to provide players with easier travel around the Wilderness while still including a delay that benefits pker.
Overall, I think everything is fine the way it is. If a pvmer manages to escape from you using a binding spell or freeze, then you should question your PvP skill rather than the system.

[minor widget]

The wilderness isn’t for pvmers and skillers; it’s first and foremost for people who want to murder each other.

[jovial socket]

Yah so what's your point here? why don't you just ignore the pvmer and fight people who actually willing to put up a fight? If the wildy isn't for pvmers then I wonder why a pker would wanna bother going to the wildy? Having pvmer in the wildy what gives pker a reason to start pking.

Like fr? why would you wanna go to wildy? Having pvmer in the wildy keeps it healthy and active. You aren't fighting pker all the time

[minor widget]

It’s about the order of priorities. Last time I hopped rev caves looking for fights with pkers I hopped for like an hour, found 2 and they just freeze logged.

[jovial socket]

If you're actually looking to some pvp then PvP world literally exists. There's peoples actually looking to fight not someone just freeze and run

[broken nova]

thats not really an argument its like saying why does pvp world exist when wildy already exists

[jovial socket]

I'm not the one saying wildy just for pker and not for pvmer

[broken nova]

wildy is a specific zone that is tailored for risk and reward gameplay. pvp world is not really structured in anyway besides having a flat 15 cmb lvl bracket system.

[jovial socket]

uh have you tried going to the wildy in pvp world?

[broken nova]

its not at all for pvmers, anyone who steps into the wildy is able to pvp. skulling is optional but it doesnt stop u from taking fights.

[agile notch]

Hold on, which part is this topic aimed at? Logging out or the huge amount of worlds? If its the logging out (as a form of escape) couldn't we just log out at any given time back in the day? Or did we have a delay of 10 sec or something similar too? If it is the latter, then I dont see a problem here.

[jovial socket]

yes and not everyone looking to/can fight back. They're entering wildy to get some lucrative ways to make profit and you have the option to get it from them

[broken nova]

saying pvp worlds exist doesnt make a point. DMM also exists, an entirely separate account and gamemode. that doesnt mean wildy shouldnt also exist

[jovial socket]

you are the one said you wanted fight a pker so you hopped world in rev cave.

[broken nova]

if you choose not to fight back and die as a result, that is entirely ur own fault

[minor widget]

All of RuneScape play area used to be pvp zone until they introduced the wilderness as the area for it. It’s a unique zone made for pvp. It’s for people looking to fight and die.

[jovial socket]

and I'm not even arguing about that in any way. That's what I keep saying, people enter wildy knowing the risk because they have somewhat fair chance of escaping. If the wilderness heavily restricted for pvmer then there will no point in entering wildy for pvmers. There will be far better method to earn gp in main world.

[jovial socket]

yes I'm aware of that. It's a unique zone for pvp and jagex could just keep it that way instead of adding lucrative skilling and pvming methods

[broken nova]

it wouldnt matter if there was few ppl in the wildy if u didnt have to spam world hops to find ppl

theres pvp games with <1000 pop and have constant pvp because they arent split across hundreds of worlds

[jovial socket]

so the op's suggest of adding obelisk for instant logout seems fair? how's that gonna help with your situation of hopping world.

[broken nova]

mage bank and the ardy/edge lever are basically your ways to leave in the deep wildy

[jovial socket]

your suggestion seems unreasonable and unhealthy for the wilderness. If you want the wildy to die out then this is probably the best method i can think of

[broken nova]

obelisks? not my suggestion

[jovial socket]

I said OP's

[broken nova]

it wouldnt work at all, the problem of there being so many worlds would still exist

[jovial socket]

So without having pointless argument, why dont you just write all the things in one message you think gonna help with the current wildy condition. Cause I'm confused exactly what's your solution atm

[broken nova]

probably what i would do is have separate wilderness worlds that only contain players who are in the wildy

and to logout/hop u have to stand still for so long

[jovial socket]

Hm so we could just remove wilderness itself from every worlds and only way to access wilderness is through the pvp world. that's what ur basically saying

[broken nova]

pvp world doesnt have anything to do with wildy

[jovial socket]

it doesn't but what would be the difference between a normal world and a wilderness specific world? A world where only wilderness exist?
From what I understand you're not liking the fact that all the pvmer and pker spread around hundreds of worlds. You want there to be less world where wildy accessible so you dont have to hop around world to world. Did I get anything wrong?

[broken nova]

just because pvp exists in both pvp worlds and wilderness does not make them the same thing bro

[small light]

Don't worry, I have other suggestions for 'mouse' players. This is definitely the more PKer and 'dangerous wilderness' oriented one.

Those other ideas are for another day for me to post around though.

[small light]

Both tbh.

I think the restriction back then was more in instant world hopping. Yea you could instant log back then too, then you'd take a while to be able to switch worlds.

[jovial socket]

And I'm not even saying they're the same. If you're specifically looking for a small amount of worlds where wildy accessible and make a small amount of wilderness world more active then you could possibly mean

• there would be like 10 wilderness specific world and wilderness will be inaccessible from other worlds.

[small light]

Here @broken nova @jovial socket you guys might like to read my friend's original post where he proposed the Forinthry Gates.

I am pretty much signal boosting his idea and looking for more feedback on the concept and the problem.

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/wnnk66/reimagining_the_wilderness_experience_a_holistic/

[jovial socket]

tell me if that's not what u meant

So basically remove wilderness from every other worlds and only keep like 10 of the world accessible.

[small light]

Also I want to say the Wilderness and PvP worlds are not the same thing nor are they intended to be the same kind of gameplay.

PvP Worlds and Bounty Hunter are good options for strictly player fighting another player with risk gameplay.

The wilderness is different - it's a huge resource/PvM area with the risk of PvP with a big emphasis on risk vs reward gameplay, and with that whole idea of predator prey.

I wrote about my thoughts on predator prey gameplay and here that is if you'd like to read:

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1rh1s8m/why_throwing_more_minigames_at_the_problem_wont/o81d1g3/?context=3

[jovial socket]

You missed a lot of the conversation. you should read it from here

[small light]

I did read that actually

I disagree that the wilderness should only be about players fighting players who fight back - there is also "escape" gameplay

I have a separate suggestion that was intended to help with worldhop problems. It's an alternative to the suggestion to "restrict the wilderness to only a few worlds".

If the world hop list showed wilderness activity in all worlds as 0-3 flames as a heat map, would this positively or negatively affect different types of players in the Wildy?

Like

W123 🔥
W111
W133 🔥🔥🔥
W135 🔥🔥
W141
W142
W143 🔥

The premise is that some players will go to populated worlds to find people, so it benefits PvPers

Some players will go to unpopulated worlds to hide, so it benefits PvMers

But also some players will go to unpopulated worlds to find the people who are hiding, so there's still danger

This way would scale with the increasing number of worlds Jagex adds as the OSRS community grows, whereas limiting Wilderness to a few worlds only does not scale and only limits it.

[jovial socket]

So you should be aware that my entire point there was,

• wilderness exist for both pvp and pvmer.
• If he's specifically looking for pvp fight the pvp world literally exists.
• Heavily restricting the survival chance for pvmer isn't good for the wilderness health.
• An Ironman can't lose nor risk big amount of supply everytime they enter wildy.
• If you want to lower the amount of worlds where wildy accessible then just remove wildy from all world and only allow in pvm world as wildy works same in both normal and pvp world.

[small light]

Yea your point got confusing because your second point contradicts the first one.

If he wants to find someone to fight he can go to either the Wilderness or a PvP world. If someone is skilling/PvM in the Wilderness, they should expect that someone is going to attack them.

This post was not just about restricting survival chance for PvMer, as I did also discuss things to help PvMers have more options to escape and there is more to it than that.

Jagex wants to add blighted saradomin brews in addition to the other blighted supplies - surely that should help irons too.

I don't agree with restricting the wilderness to only a few worlds in favor of the Wilderness Activity Listing suggestion.

[upper narwhal]

Hopscape is absolutely dogwater and could be fixed in a multitutde of ways. The healthiest imo is restricting how many worlds one can go into the wilderness on. We do not need 300+ worlds of bloat.
Pvmers have had it too good for too long and its time to cut it down.

[small light]

Ye also whether or not PvMer or PKer has the advantage is an endless discussion tbh, I'm not trying to just make things worse for one side

[agile notch]

Yea, then this is a non-issue comparatively regarding the logging out - and let it be that way.

[broken nova]

the wildy is about pvp as much as a pvp world

[small light]

I think the other thing Danil445 wanted to tackle with Forinthry Gates was scouting. His original version of it makes that way harder, but I have different ideas about that myself.

[small light]

That is a fair point!

[upper narwhal]

this doesnt just make it worse for one side. That's demeaning to the point. We do not need 300 worlds of hopscape.

[jovial socket]

my 2nd point was because he said wildy only exist for pker not pvmer. And he was looking for pker to fight with in rev cave. So i just pointed him out that pvp world literally exists for pvp enthusiasts. Dw my replies was for him not your suggestions.

[agile notch]

I mean I see no point you brought this up yourself lol. The only difference is the world-hopping which was through the browser but that has nothing to do with the logging out escape.

[broken nova]

more active wildy just means more chances for pkers to kill other pkers, the wildy being dead doesnt make it healthier for anybody

the game doesnt revolve around ironman mode and really the entire point of ironman is that its harder to play. its also never going to be fully fleshed out unless they made it a separate gamemode with its own ruleset, as is it only exists as a restricted account that is entirely ur own choice to play and all the problems that come with it

[small light]

Ironman mode is a separate gamemode with its own ruleset

Ironmen are also around 30% of the playerbase, this is a non-negligible portion for the 70% polls.

[broken nova]

asking for PVP to revolve around ironman whose entire premise is not interacting with other players is completely absurd

[small light]

I am not asking for PvP to revolve around them. Rather who even mentioned irons in this conversation? I feel like you kinda just randomly mentioned that.

[jovial socket]

So I simply said, just remove wilderness from every worlds and add like 10 worlds. As there's already around 10 world where pvp accessible throughout the world and specifically meant for pvp activity then just simply remove the wilderness from normal worlds and keep things as they are. If anyone looking to access wildy just hop to any pvp world that's it. Instead if adding 10 extra worlds.

[broken nova]

the wildy and pvp worlds arent the same thing

[jovial socket]

what makes them different? maybe I'm missing something

[small light]

I explained here ^

[broken nova]

the wildy is an area of the map about risk and reward. pvp worlds are just worlds that randomly have pvp enabled for no particular reason

[jovial socket]

yah not that I disagree

[small light]

On the other hand, wouldn't wilderness in a PvP world still work the same as normal wilderness

It's just the same usual suggestion of restricting wildy to a few worlds, Crimson is just saying to use the PvP worlds for that

[agile notch]

So they released BH and PvP world to take away the PvP element from the wildy, haha got you

In #1395240261147164792 I suggested to have no wildy behind the ditch, but that was a stretch.

[jovial socket]

exactly. 2 bird in a shot you might say

there's literally nothing difference in mechanic between pvp and normal world wilderness. People who looking to engage in pvp they can fight both in wildy and main world. And pvmer who looking to access wildy do it as they would in normal worlds. Makes no difference here.

[agile notch]

You can find both PKers and PvMers in a PvP world as well as regular wildy

[jovial socket]

yes

[small light]

Waaaait that's a big difference. If PvMer can go to the wildy in normal worlds without risk of PvP, then that is a huuuuuge difference.

Suddenly they get access to all the OP rewards of the wilderness with ZERO risk. People could get the Wildy boss pets with zero risk.

[broken nova]

there is a difference between pvp worlds and the wildy

[small light]

that's not what he's saying, he's talking about the wilderness in a normal world and the wilderness in a pvp world

both wildernesses are the same

[broken nova]

they arent the same

[jovial socket]

You TOTALLY missed what I said earlier. I literally said 100 times remove wilderness from all worlds if you wanna lower the wilderness world count. make it completely inaccessible

[small light]

what's different then?

[broken nova]

ones a pvp world the other isnt, read the pvp world wiki page for details

[small light]

You literally just said "And pvmer who looking to access wildy do it as they would in normal worlds."

That is different.

[small light]

Does pvp world remove wilderness levels in the wilderness?

[agile notch]

It adds onto it

[jovial socket]

What I meant by that is,
There's no different method or restrictions you have to go through in order to access wilderness in pvp world. You can enter wilderness in a pvp world just like you do in a normal world

[small light]

ahhh

[small light]

I think we're just getting confused english tbh

Well as mentioned just now, pvp worlds add +15 levels to the wildy levels, so that does change it a bit tho

[agile notch]

Little impact, you can still freely go and do your PvM stuff. Not mention worthy.

[small light]

@craggy lion I am absolutely butchering your original suggestion lol

It really is hard to pitch any of these ideas in isolation huh

[jovial socket]

does it though? i thought wilderness works differently as soon as u enter. Why don't I just check out myself

[small light]

beats me :D I'm in varlamore

I'm predating upon the money held in the pockets of poor, defenseless loot pinata prey citizens

[jovial socket]

yes it do work the same way as you stated. the level gap starts at 15 from level 1 wildy.

[agile notch]

If you want to centralise pkers you have to cramp them into one space. Removing wildy in the humongous amount of worlds we have, remove PvP worlds, remove BH. OR only have wildy in the PvP world or in BH as unreal as it sounds.

World 345 is what non-world-345s need

[jovial socket]

Maybe keep things as they are. BH, high risk world, normal pvp world they adds interesting mechanics

[small light]

My goals are more based in being able to make PvP into an activity that grows as the runescape community itself grows, rather than seeing the PvP community continually declining.

No this thread is not one of the solutions more based in achieving that

[agile notch]

I know, and your argument is stable. It does draw actual players to them. Meaning other areas such as wildy (we speaking about wildy here) will have fewer left -> big win for PvMers.

[small light]

yea the whole reason I started doing some wildy things more is because it's so dead now I'm mostly uncontested

and you can do alot of things with almost no risk even if you get PKed

[jovial socket]

Honestly maybe add the same mechanic as dmm. If you press logout you have to wait 10 seconds. But for normal worlds it only applies if you were in pvp activity in recent 5min.

[agile notch]

-and if you were skulled

[small light]

Didn't you mention earlier people found it annoying? Would it be more reasonable if it were a wilderness-only thing?

[jovial socket]

I said it will be annoying but only if it's a permanent thingy. But if the timer only applies to recent pvp not pvm activity then makes it more reasonable

[small light]

need jagex to 'beta test' more things in DMM :)

[jovial socket]

Basically what I'm saying is,
you can logout at any time assuming you weren't in pvm activity for 10 seconds. But if you were in pvp activity either attacker or defender you have to wait additional 10 seconds to be able to logout. The timer stacks with the timer where you have to avoid combat for 10 seconds. That should give pker enough time to get out of binding spell

in total You have to avoid being in combat for 10 seconds and then wait additional 10 seconds to logout if you were in pvp

[agile notch]

I don't really care what kind of solution will be added to skulled people, as long as non skull remains the same behaviour.

[jovial socket]

that obviously a must have

[small light]

We should give skulled players an AK-47

[pliant pumice]

this wont really fix anything, not being able to escape does not mean pvmers will start risking 10m+ to maybe kill bad pker and always die to decent pker. All it does is incentivize bringing 0 risk into wilderness even more if you are not looking to kill other players. best chance at getting pvmers to risk more is still allowing chance to escape while preventing instant tele (deep wildy) and insta log out (cannot kill bosses while out of combat) would also have to be in singles since most pvmers would not risk if chance of team or clan killing them in multi which removes all escapes. Even pkers will hate 0% chance to escape other pkers, not to mention this change would bring singles clans back to kill anyone since no chance to escape and log out timer is long enough for someone else to jump on you

[small light]

So Danil445's original idea with Forinthry Gates was you could not log out AT ALL if you weren't near one

That way clans couldn't just log onto someone, for example, you'd see them running in from the distance and you could see it and prepare to run. It also reduces the viability of scouting.

That left the question though: What happens if you force log while not near a gate? Would we just get teleported to the closest Forinthry Gate? Or maybe wake up in the Ferox Enclave? Or something else?

[jovial socket]

So the obelisk works similar to the current obelisk but without the teleport delay and allows you instant logout regardless of combat timer?

[small light]

heeeere...

I was trying to iterate on the idea when I first mentioned it many posts ago, so I paraphrased and changed some details, but maybe that doesn't do it justice

[small light]

Hmm what do you think about the thing above ^

@agile notch @broken nova does the full version of the original idea feel any different to you?

The part I changed was saying people could log out anywhere, it's just slower / not while players are around, but let's scrap that for a moment

[broken nova]

it might be overkill cos we probably dont need worldhopping gutted, rather just make worldhopping unnecessary by making roaming just as or more effective to finding ppl

[small light]

yea making roaming more effective is part of the goal, this is a good point

theoretically, if PvP became more popular, that would be the case

like multi revs, it was popular enough you didn't need to world hop to find anyone

[broken nova]

not being able to logout at all is probably something more for a very high stakes mode like DMM to explore

[small light]

true I'd love to see it tried in DMM

For X-logging or force logging, I'm not against the idea that it teleports the player to certain "extraction points", like the Ferox Enclave, or Edgeville, or the Mage Bank

[jovial socket]

pressing log out will automatically teleport the player to the nearest obelisk but isn't it the same as things currently are? You have to be out of combat and logout. Only annoyance it adds is the free will of logging out at any place.
You might wanna logout for some reason but everytime you do you have to redo everything and go back to your previous spot.
Doesn't it just add annoyance for both pvper and pvmer without giving the solution for current problem? They're able to logout at any place of the wilderness regardless. basically you're teleporting out to ferox

[small light]

Well that isn't the same as it currently is, logging out doesn't teleport you anywhere right now.

The main difference though, is currently you just need 10 seconds to log out, or you have to get below 30 wildy to teleport out instantly.

However with the new system, you can't logout normally, or you have to X-log which takes 60 seconds and you're not gonna know what's going on if you do that, plus it puts you somewhere else, so the emphasis is to get to a safe zone or teleport out or forinthry gate.

Hmmmm

I think Danil445 was thinking more about how that prevents clans from just jumping onto someone.

If I'm a clan though, maybe I will guard the forinthry gates. But then the team that is bossing would just run south instead. Hmmmmm

[upper narwhal]

no

[jovial socket]

Don't get me wrong, your idea sounds intriguing but I'm just clearing out some of my negative pov for the ideas. So this should also prevent players from teleporting below 30 wilderness right? or are we just specifically talking about level 30+ wilderness.

[small light]

It does not relate to the teleportation rules

[pliant pumice]

main issue with that is the clans in singles in deep wildy will always be able to kill anyone they see. No chance to escape if you need to tank 5-10minutes to under lvl30 wildy and then get tbed for 2.5-5minutes

[upper narwhal]

bots auto teleport the moment their wildy play alarm goes off at anywhere sub 30 wilderness. We need to stop the teles or at least ban the plugin.

[small light]

Our other solution to clans is wildy teams and team combat zones where it's only 5v5 or 6v6 at most

[jovial socket]

so I'd assume we're talking about changes being made in 30+ wildy.

[upper narwhal]

L idea go to clan wars if you want small team activities forced onto people.

[small light]

I'd refer to the map where the gates are posted a few posts ago

[pliant pumice]

yes but there will still be teams/clans who will hunt in singles if you prevent player from escaping via logout when you get freeze on 1 of the players.

[small light]

Ah well wildy teams is a whole nother suggestion thread and conversation tbh there's a lot of details about that too

[broken nova]

team caps are impossible to put in open world pvp

[small light]

That seems kinda outta nowhere. If Jagex can cap combat to 1v1, why can't they do 6v6?

Singleway combat is a team cap of 1

[upper narwhal]

Just completely go ahead and destroy clanning since you're at it.

[small light]

I never said to get rid of multi completely

[upper narwhal]

Completely destroy big fish dynamic of wilderness multi is laughable.

[small light]

I never said to get rid of multi completely

[broken nova]

singles isnt team caps thats y it works

[upper narwhal]

Keep the caps out of the wilderness and in minigames.

[jovial socket]

Okay I get that. So we're talking about removing logging out entirely throughout the wilderness. Only way to logout is X-logging. But at the same time we can logout and get automatically teleported to the obelisk? So we have to x-log everytime we wanna logout or we have to walk all the way to obelisk and hope to see some pker waiting to bang up on me.

[small light]

Yea I was thinking people guarding those makes it even worse than it sounded originally

[upper narwhal]

Just completely kills wilderness scouting of any areas. No obelisks anywhere underground like wildy godwars or slayer caves. Can't get behind it.

[small light]

It was intended to nerf scouting in terms of like the wildy cc hopping stuff

[jovial socket]

it just makes it more tedious to safely walk out of the wilderness. Specially when you have anything urgent came up irl and have to walk 2min to get out of wildy

[small light]

yea true tbh

so I suppose the takeaway is we like instant logouts and hops anywhere more than the idea of limiting logouts in any kinda way

[upper narwhal]

You never mentioned a slightly delayed logout whatsoever. Only a 2 min+ logout or instant. And there are other situations.

[jovial socket]

Also you have to take into account pker pov. What happens if you couldn't find anyone inside the slayer dungeon? you can't just world hop though. You have to walk back to obelisk everytime you wanna world hop.

[upper narwhal]

yeah im extremely against this. Ill just quit playing if thats how the game moves lol

[small light]

It's a long thread, there were different versions of the idea mentioned

[upper narwhal]

you just typed this though? LOL

[small light]

okay, and that's very vague and I didn't write 2 min+ logout anywhere?

[upper narwhal]

Lets not be dense on purpose that hurts the discussion.

[small light]

What bro. If you weren't following the conversation don't put words in my mouth.

[jovial socket]

the best countermeasure I can think of is,
just keep things as they are with slight change.
So if i get it correctly the entire problem surrounding people being able to bind and then logout as the binding time longer than the combat timer. Maybe just add a bit more delay to the combat time only if you were engaged in pvp recently.

[pliant pumice]

Only way to prevent freeze logging is to add over 20 sec delay to log out and that on its own will run into multiple issues from other parts like pj timer only being 12sec

[broken nova]

starting logout timer unfreezes everybody u froze

[pliant pumice]

pj timer was on purpose set to longer than log out timer so players could log out before next person gets on you

[agile notch]

Not being able to log out and in when and where you want? No.

[jovial socket]

same

[agile notch]

So what, are we still getting 100 worlds but those obelisks instead?

[small light]

Nah, the conversation moved to maybe scrap this idea and live with what we got instead

[agile notch]

Oh man, disadvantage of the suggestion section in here.. Having to go through tons of messages just to see the OP changed 3 times throughout

[small light]

yep lol, but also the advantage is the idea progressed and we explored the problems of this alternate reality

[agile notch]

True, I think you'll have to create a new one with the refined idea - I read in another post.

[small light]

which version of it was the refined idea to you? ahaha

[agile notch]

Idk you @ me somewhere and I replied with this ^

[cerulean sail]

Having to run X distance to get to the spot I would’ve already been hopping at before the update you are proposing
Then having to run back X distance.
Sounds awful. NGL

[small light]

oh yea the actual original suggestion with the nice image formats

nah I've decided against that too

[jovial socket]

you're late on the fun.

[cerulean sail]

I just read it all, yes.. all.
Just needed to drop the fact that it doesn’t matter what we attempt to change in the wildy, the “vote no for PVP” dorks will always prevail because sadly there are more of them then people who truly love PVP.
People forget it was the pkers that brought back 2007 scape and now they spit on us 🙂

[small light]

Well, I love PvP, but I vote no on most Wilderness change ideas because they are not addressing the core problems of the wilderness and most are just more loot pinata updates.

[jovial socket]

Damn u actually, seriously read all?? Seriously I could never bother to go through near 200 message

[cerulean sail]

It was a good read tbh, most of it.
Bad and good takes

I personally think player indicator should be unsupported by Jagex I said this a long ass time ago

[small light]

I think we all agree on that with the flashy screen thing

[jovial socket]

this is something 100% agree and always had been

[upper narwhal]

Calling pvmers loot pinatas is probably where you're disconnected.
The only people that think anyone is a loot pinata are someone whos happened upon a pvmer who completely is just dogass and lets you kill them for free.

[agile notch]

The same 200 messages you can read in other PvP related topics too 😄

Does it actually flash while the player and/or the dot on the minimap is not visible? I never tested

[cerulean sail]

Weird take

Let people who have 100 hours in the wildy
Whether it be bosses or PVP vote on PVP related things.
I’ll die on that hill:)
don’t need little Billy who “died twice to greifing pkers” voting no on something he really has no info on.

[cerulean sail]

Yes

[jovial socket]

But I don't think the sentiment is people hates pvp in whole. I think most player wanna be good at pvp and engage in pvp. But pvp comes with understanding the combat mechanics in a way very different from pvm. And for average players it becomes hard to get started without breaking bank. You need to risk atleast 100k-300k to put up a fight and as a starter you'll always be losing to other pker. Mainly that's what keeping new players from engaging with pvp. Last man standing etc good for no cost practice but even that gets annoying with bots and good pker.

[agile notch]

No

[small light]

iirc they at least have to be rendered

[cerulean sail]

Brother, these people are lazy.
They don’t want to learn, I’ve legit seen people call pkers Greifers.
Like… what?

You literally get a warning saying you can die from the doomsayer unless you turned it off.

People legit hate PVP and hate those who participate in PVP. It’s weird.
Imagine if we just downvoted all PVM content

[agile notch]

1 tile away

[small light]

I mean a lot of PvPers do not help their own image by being toxic.

[upper narwhal]

yes it does right outside of render distance its incredibly broken and makes tb'ing in most cases just simply impossible. Its completely broken

[cerulean sail]

Believe me when I say this, there is a VAST amount of nontoxic players. There are more toxic people in the PVM community than PVP. Does that mean you should never PVM and always vote no?

[small light]

Fairy 'nuff

I think the real reason people vote no to PvP updates though is that Jagex never is actually addressing the core problems, and a lot of the time the proposals do have legitimate flaws

(and probably some do spite vote)

[upper narwhal]

oh its not a probably. People put on their reddit badges with pride about how much they hate the wilderness.

[small light]

tru

[cerulean sail]

I think you are the .001% that votes like that, all the people o have heard vote no on. PVP thing was simply “PVPers don’t need any more reasons to kill us or more ways to kill us”

Had a entire argument with a dude because “he’s a UIM and pkers just grief the time he has on OSRS and it’s limited etc”

People just don’t understand the game to its core.

Don’t go in wildy
Won’t die to player

How hard is it

[upper narwhal]

Its the ironman mentality and has been for years on end. They believe they're entitlted to every item within the game as a restricted account.
Their inclusiveness and pushy nature has garnered the bulk of jagex's attention and updates are nonstop pruned to be to their exact specifications on 90% of things.

Ironmen are the reason things are the way they are im js.

[small light]

Sure

So how do we revive the Wilderness taking into account that it's difficult for PvP things to pass polls?

Or do we just give up and let it die?

[upper narwhal]

Integrity updates should be a thing. They only are when it benefits ironmen though so whatever

[small light]

Yea I agree game balance, including in PvP, is integrity.

However Jagex could also integrity the totally wrong things in, like PJ timer.

And then ignore it for 3 years :(

[upper narwhal]

Pj timer is perfectly fine for singles imho.

[small light]

that PvP arena tho

DOA and then ignored 2 years

[jovial socket]

yah that's the downside of people not profiting from pvp. Yah Ig I should agree players hate pvp. Can't speak for everyone but why don't i give an example of myself. I always wanted to try out pvp. But Kept losing my shits everytime I went for some bot kills. The risk may had been small but quickly added up. Managed to kill some pvmer here and there but mostly I was running around looking for pvmer but couldn't find a soul. I was making more gp doing pvm than 2h of running around to kill pvmer. So got demotivated and went back to pvm

[upper narwhal]

yeah noone wanted pvp arena whatsoever lol. complete waste of time.

[upper narwhal]

You aren't going to be brand new and come in and kill rev cave bots from nothing. you need to find smaller fish to practice on. They are out there in other locations. Albeit scarcely

[outer pivot]

Try not to derail fella.

I agree that we should continue pushing these ideas. What’s frustrating is, you could put up all these suggestions & in return radio silence.
I think the gate idea is cool on paper, but we kind of have that design in certain pk hotspots already simply because of how ass cancer it is to hop there. For example: Zombie pirates
You gotta be 2 minimaps away to hop in that area & it makes it so tedious. Same with the wildy bosses. You have to be right next to the cave near Callisto & vennenatis or you just get ragged by the npc’s there. We have “designated” log out spots simply because of the mechanics that exist already.
I agree 100% that the wildy player alarm is broken as hell & needs removal, I’m just not sure the middle ground to give to PVMers to sway them to a compromise

[upper narwhal]

Why do they deserve a compromise over a broken plugin thats ran for years and literally gave them free access to the wilderness though.

[small light]

(btw we are derailed as we kinda all concluded the gates maybe aren't the way to go ahaha, then we went into usual conversation about "the value of PvP" and such)

[outer pivot]

That’s fair, it was the Ironman hate that I was saying may derail us

I agree with both of you. The only reason I say compromise is because it’s technically legal. & I couldn’t see jaggy removing it

[jovial socket]

tbh you guys should highly push jagex for the player indicator plugin removal first before making any other changes to improve the wildy

[outer pivot]

Player indicators are fine. It’s the wildy alarm that sucks

[upper narwhal]

the plugin is essentially a free membership. Maybe that would push them to fix it as we all know monetary value is the only thing the company is after.

a free lil acc just outside your view distance to tell you if bad man is coming lol. So cringe tbh

[outer pivot]

I just had a 2.5 hour war last night & I like to hear my leader say “pile feetpics28” & I just have to look for it & then bolt

[upper narwhal]

its 2026 we have party hub plugin. just ping the pile.

[jovial socket]

There's mobile users doing wildy content for years with no indicator . Idk pc users seems lost without runelite

[jovial socket]

it's 2026 we have glamour plugin to make osrs rs3

[outer pivot]

Idk if wildy content where it’s just a guy in slayer caves pvming is the same as finding a pile in a sea of 100 people but you are right! Have you seen these pvmer ppl who need their range gear highlighted green so they know they have the right gear on lol?

[upper narwhal]

it dont affect pvp so idc tbh

[pliant pumice]

wilderness alarm alts really only exist on the wilderness bosses that were moved into caves. technically they dont even matter if player is paying attention inside the singles caves, main purpose is to make pkers not even bother going inside

[outer pivot]

They’re pretty prevalent in slayer caves too, no? I don’t rlly hunt those caves for pvmers but I would imagine it’s not fun patrolling in there.

[jovial socket]

if someone going their way to spend another $15 bucks to avoid pker then let em have it lol.

[pliant pumice]

i havent gone into wilderness slayer caves in ages but when i was there no one used alts at least

[jovial socket]

nope they bring like 200 cannonball that's it.

[outer pivot]

It’s not about an alt lol. In the slayer caves most ppl are hopping in the common areas to scout multiple areas. By the time you run into an area with someone doing slayer, their screen is flashing & all they have to do is 1 click tele before you can cast TB.

[upper narwhal]

its been that way for a long time brother...

[jovial socket]

So bottom line is, force jagex to take action against the wilderness player indicator plugin. Should solve a lot of problem

[upper narwhal]

itd solve 1 subsect of many problems yes. Its entirely way to op for a plugin to be.

[jovial socket]

Also the glamour plugin it makes me cringe for some reason

[onyx spindle]

there would be a benefit to this even for the "mouse" players in cat-and-mouse

I mean, yes, but only because it makes hopping to find targets more annoying and might therefore mean less people are around, period.

Like all of the suggestions along these lines, I really just don't see a reason why non-pkers would want to make it easier to die!

[broken nova]

because if the wildy wasnt dangerous it would not have any excuse to be higher reward. risk and reward gameplay is what the wildy is about.

[upper narwhal]

theres not even higher reward in 2026 tbh.

[agile notch]

It didnt flash for me, see my 2 screenshots

[broken nova]

its not even an argument exclusive to pvp. its like saying why shouldnt we vote for easyscape changes to all content. just make everything super easy and require no thought.

[upper narwhal]

i saw and it did in one of the screenshots you posted 🤔

[agile notch]

Huh? It started flashing when I came into the vision of my other acc (same for the minimap)

[upper narwhal]

Are you set to 30?

[jovial socket]

they can make argument about the plugins being completely optional to use but at this point they aren't far from using Autoclicker

[agile notch]

draw distance?

[upper narwhal]

alarm radius. under the plugin.

[agile notch]

Oh, 15. Should increase and retest?

[upper narwhal]

set to 30

[agile notch]

@upper narwhal no change, behaves the same as in the pics

[upper narwhal]

and i take it you're using gpu max draw distance yes?

[agile notch]

GPU -> Draw Distance -> 178 (I dont remember why it was at this value inb4 you wonder).

Extended map loading: 5.

[onyx spindle]

I mean, okay? That's a non-sequitur. The point I'm making is that there is 0 reason for anyone to want to die more easily if they aren't there for the pk/pvp gameplay in the first place, and it's silly to pretend that that population doesn't exist, is irrelevant, or will simply be ignored.

This is from a dev team averse enough to critique that when multiple places exploded because sailing combat went from being bad to being bad, they put out an immediate apology and tried to do a damage control stream. What would possibly make people think they can actually get jagex to ignore the larger contingent in the wilderness, regardless of whether or not they're in the right philosophically?

[upper narwhal]

yeah no should work right. weird oh well. Regardless plugin still stupid fucking op

[agile notch]

How else would bots know you're in distance, what do they see we can not LMFAO. They just react super fast, that is how they are coded.

[upper narwhal]

nah something 100% shows you out of render i just gotta figure out what. ive chalked it up to that for a long time though ngl.

[agile notch]

Curious, do let me know it could be useful for my F2P pking.

[broken nova]

they can just not care what people think and do integrity changes. thats what most game devs do

[upper narwhal]

ive hopped a lot of weird locations right outside of render and the amount of people that just insta tele before i can even see them is mad disheartening. Actively see mobs fighting then just poof they're gone XD

[onyx spindle]

Well, good luck with that, I guess. I suspect you'll be waiting forever.

[upper narwhal]

could be cheat plugins im not aware of tbf as i dont engage in those communities.

Regardless a big red flashing OMG a person button is peak victim gameplay. Just sets a bad precedence lol

[agile notch]

Yeah agreed, if you play you play, if you're (semi-)afk well too bad.

I used it to find white dots rather quicker during multilogging than otherwise @upper narwhal 😄

[outer pivot]

I for one don’t think it’s possible. I think we’ll be beating a dead horse until something drastic is done (again) to compromise the wilderness.
I think a lot of ppl just focus on PvP being someone hunting a loot piñata. Clans that fight each other exist, we’d like to have something worth fighting over. That has nothing to do with Tommy & his slayer xp or him feeling “forced” to get a voidwaker.
But it’s hard to articulate suggestions when the immediate reaction by a player is “I hate the wildy omg wtf it shouldn’t exist”.

Clearly, the wildy shouldn’t cater to those people? But unfortunately it would take an act of God for that to be a reality

[jovial socket]

throw an up https://discord.com/channels/324132423636090880/1484896989664514198

[outer pivot]

.

[jovial socket]

nah i already mentioned it at the bottom

[outer pivot]

Will edit my comment sry

[onyx spindle]

I mean, yeah, the wildy obviously should have been designed as world pvpve from the ground up instead of Jagex functionally (or in Manked's recent case, literally!) pleading with people who don't want to be there to go.

They can't resolve it by removing pvp and washing their hands of things, because that's a violation of the entire conceit of the game being a fairly faithful-if-more-elaborate continuation of what it was in 2007. They can't resolve it by reverting all changes making it safer, because they have 10 years of content packed into the zone all designed and polled with this rickety, unwelcome balance in mind. No one wants to deal with the blowback from making, say, the chaos altar or the voidwaker or wildy clues or whatever else other unique stuff is present significantly less accessible to most of the playerbase.

These suggestions feel kinda pointless to me because like...how do you convince people that pvp can be fun when the only time they encounter it is being interrupted while doing something else, and many of them just don't wanna do it at all? The wildy hasn't really been designed for only the people who want to be there to go for years now, so it feels impossible to wrestle it back to that without running into the problem of the large number of non-pvp enjoyers/tolerators who're there now even though they realistically never should have been present in the first place!

[upper narwhal]

People wanted to go there when there was incentive. This arguement is in bad faith and only as of recent does it show any truth. Try this same arguement when we had multi revs which actually provided those incentives.

[broken nova]

atleast come up with something original if you are gonna be bad faith, we have heard the same "we cant have pvp updates because non-pvpers will complain to spite pvpers for no reason" a million times

[outer pivot]

Idk, I wouldn’t wanna be limited to logging in & out in designated zones 5 minimaps away from where I’m actually pking. It does make it more tedious for anyone involved whether veteran or noob

[broken nova]

saying we cant revert changes, when that does happen, and infact this entire game only exists because they reverted to a 2007 version of the game

[agile notch]

One good thing: purchasing leaks with RS GP or irl money in enemy clans would be devalued. Now you can only share their worlds and still have to run a mile. Till then the opposite clan would have also gained the equal intel, if lucky, and run to an obelisk to 'dodge'.

[outer pivot]

Oh dear Bibi, if we bring leaks to the light of day we may get pvp removed tomorrow lol

[agile notch]

Knew I would get a reaction out of you 🙂

Still lets not act it does not happen and if we are going to make changes it plays a role.

[upper narwhal]

we gonna make changes to people buying gold while we're at it.

[outer pivot]

Agree

[agile notch]

I don't want to go very off-topic, but if the amount of worlds were reduced where wildy is accessible and/or the wildy cramped, bumping into others would be more likely.

[spice locust]

Agree, this update would push more people away from the wildy not bring them in.

[modern lily]

If the goal is to encourage actual escape gamleplay over freezelog I think a simpler solution is to get rid of the DDing and possibly have some freeze immunity after freeze end.

The log-zones is an interesting concept though. I think if hopping was made more tedious, that would make scouting less effective, which could possibly draw more non-pkers to wildy, which could in turn make roaming somewhat more effective.

Idk how good/bad it would turn out to be, but definetly interesting.

[pliant pumice]

i wonder why people think freeze logging is not valid escape method. like are you meant to tank to below 30 wildy instead every time when in deep wildy. Yes it does make escaping easier if player trying to escape knows mechanics but unless they hide behind a nearby object pkers still have chance to prevent the freeze log with things like adamant seeds and they can also reduce chance of player getting freeze log timing

[spice locust]

What was the argument for why we should remove freeze logging? Kind of feels like if we implemented escape areas people would only fight around the escape area similar to how in BH majority fight closer to the middle.

[upper narwhal]

they already wont give us spell resizing in pvp, anything to take away from skill expression is frowned upon thus dd'ing is too stay. just based on precedence.

[pliant pumice]

freeze log doesnt really remove dding, it removes dding for escape which is also done by pkers in pvp fight. but escaping fight should also be considered skill

[minor widget]

Because leaving the game/quitting/logging out as an “escape”, is antisocial

[spice locust]

Seeds exist and can counter this depending on your ability vs opponents

[minor widget]

It’s like you’re wrestling with your brother and run to your mom

[pliant pumice]

so everyone has to fight to death even the pkers who are outgeared. just donate your inventory since no escaping allowed

[minor widget]

Yeah, unless you can escape

That’s why people fight/fought at lvl 1 wilderness and levers

[upper narwhal]

the 1 tactic we have to fight ahk demons. And you're planning on taking it away 😭

[modern lily]

So the thought experiment here:

If you're unable to logout in wilderness outside of the designated zones, that would mean the hunters would also need to go there for hopping = hopping is much less efficient.

If these zones are also safezones, then they effectively become the target for a lot of escapes.
If the zones are not safe, that means you'll have pkers camping them ready to take on hoppers, I assume this would cause most pvmers to use safezones for hopping, and only those actively hunting to hop in the hopzones.

Either way, I think this would cause pvmers encounters with pvpers less frequent, which would then possibly make wildy content worth while for more players, which means more targets to find for the hunters.

[upper narwhal]

wildy being worthwhile isnt based via wildy altercations its based via theoretical gp/hr from the content there is to do.

[spice locust]

Would force people to give up on fights too early

[modern lily]

Pkers dislike freezelogging, everyone else dislikes DDing(which is ironically what makes freezelogging possible currently).

Remove DDing (i.e. unfreeze on dd) would remove a big pain point for players who are tired of the supersweats, making fighting back a bit more viable. It would also require you to actually escape before logging. Imo that is actually a win-win.

[spice locust]

No we don't?

[minor widget]

Not necessarily, it all depends on where you are fighting, like lvl 1 or levers

[small light]

It's certainly an argument that comes up a lot on both sides

[upper narwhal]

DD is just another point of skill expression.
It shouldn't be disallowed just because johnny isn't good enough to fight back.

[spice locust]

Right but where are all the pkers who want every fight to be a death match.

[small light]

yea this is true

[modern lily]

DDing(in combination with some other factors) comes up time and time again as a major reason for why many casual players avoid wildy.

[small light]

They are in PvP worlds and BH :D

[upper narwhal]

3/4 of mains in bh spec tab. They dont just want to fight to the death thats incredibly off base my friend.

[pliant pumice]

pkers dont want death matches they want pvmers to not have escape option so they have to fight back or just die

[modern lily]

You can disagree, fair, but the result is what we have now; pvp community complaining about wildy being dead and others complaining about pvpers being overpowered.

[small light]

They want the other person to die but they don't wanna die :D just like edge pking

[spice locust]

Just because a vocal minority says something over and over again doesn't mean they speak for the majority

[modern lily]

The silent majority simply avoids wildy...

[small light]

there's also pvpers complaining about pvmers being overpowered in tanking

[upper narwhal]

So you think dd killed wilderness? Surely it wasn't the lack of updates or the taking away of the one incentive hotspot we had for years because of a few bad apples that were blew out of proportion by lifelong reddit browsers.

[small light]

Everyone who is vocal is a minority

[small light]

Yea it's the big neglect by Jagex and not hitting the core problems with their attempted updates that killed wildy

[modern lily]

Not alone, but seems like it's a part of it. It sure is an effective gatekeeper for casual players currently.

[upper narwhal]

when even was the last actual wilderness update would be a good part to start.

[spice locust]

I spend the majority of my play time NHing or multi pking. I don't want dding removed and I don't want freeze logging removed. If someone can get an escape on me they deserve to get away. If someone starts dding me I seed out and freeze them as well or focus on my overheads until my timer runs out

[minor widget]

It works the same on all levels, doesn’t matter who is fighting who.

[upper narwhal]

So is it an effective gatekeeper for theatre of blood to? Its simple movement lmao.

[modern lily]

Can't see how tob is relevant to why people dislike pvp mechanics...

[modern lily]

That's fair, using the mechanics as is. But if the goal is to get more activity then something probably needs to be changed. If you're fine with the status quo then that's fine too.

[spice locust]

What is suggested here makes it worse not better

[modern lily]

In some ways it would make it worse for pkers (and efficient pvmers). But I think it might have some long-term potential for increased overall activity, that's where I find it somewhat interesting.

[upper narwhal]

Because of movement. Soteseg maze for example you are meant to follow the path on the ground your teammates follow to get through without damaging one another.
DD is an example of movement as well, you step under correctly via a few select ways, right clicking, clicking past from 2 tiles away, or force walking under from one tile away via clicking past once again.
This is just movement tech that provides an advantage. This is skill gap quite honestly. Get good.

[pliant pumice]

the biggest benefit from it for pvmers would be pkers stop hopping certain spots far away from the totems because they have to run back there after every single world hop. If pker got on you in deep wildy you would have less chance to escape as pvmer

[modern lily]

So "get good" is your solution for attracting more people?

[small light]

For DD freeze log counter I like the whole smoke bomb thing more, but that has its own different problems :)

[upper narwhal]

I don't like catering to self imposed restrictions or incompetence quite honestly.

[spice locust]

That's the great comparable to tob lol. Try finding a group to take you as a learner without 50+ kc

[modern lily]

Idk what your goal/wish is, but like I said before, if you're fine with the status quo, then fine no need to change. But it seems like big parts of the pvp community feels like the scene atm is dead.

[upper narwhal]

Its not because of being able to dd in a fight. Either way seems like a discussion for #pvp-discussion

[modern lily]

But if the goal is to actually attract more people, then some compromises probably needs to be made. The obvious target then imo should be "how can we get more casual players to engange with content X".

[upper narwhal]

Incentive.

[modern lily]

That's what has been done for the last 10 years... People still not happy.

[upper narwhal]

Name 1 piece of viable endgame incentive the wilderness offers that better is not found elsewhere.

[spice locust]

No one would be fine with making Hard mode TOB easier to get more casuals to engage. They instead add content in the game to improve the pvm progression and introduce mechanics at mid game bosses

That is the approach we should take with PvP. Don't make it easier but instead bring people's abilities up to be able to participate with reward incentives to engage

[modern lily]

Not saying either of you are wrong, but history tells us that's not realistic.

[spice locust]

I lived through that history it can be done but requires developer support from jagex

[modern lily]

Think of it as a "long con". Currently the pvp community is small and largely disliked (fair or unfair), leading to pretty much all pvp improvements being blocked by voting.

Solution: Increase the pvp community.

[upper narwhal]

I think we're all on board for that but perhaps in different directions.

[spice locust]

The PvP community being largely disliked is a can of worms I won't open in this game suggestion lol. I want to grow the PvP community but respectfully don't think this game suggestion achieves that and would only serve to push existing participants away.

[minor widget]

You should dislike the bandits and rogues - the people that want to murder you, but it’s part of the RPG

[small light]

This game suggestion is one of the weaker ones for PvP growth

To catch you up with our conclusion, most of us ruled out this idea already

[minor widget]

But because people don’t get that positive aspect of having a villain, it’ll die without executive decisions by devs

[zenith delta]

Just go to a pvp world, you can pk all you want, thats what its for.

[jovial socket]

why didn't I think of that. That's genius!

[craggy lion]

my main motivation behind this idea was actually to make it harder for "mice" to be piled by groups/clans who scout and insta-hop on top of them. something like the forinthry gates would force a more organic, one could say "oldschool" interaction where, as a mouse, you see groups of PKers run towards you from the edge of your screen. this gives you time to respond and requires the group/clan to strategize around potential escape routes more meaningfully than "just log in all over the place". along with the sheer travel times from forinthry gate to PKing hotspot, it will be way more difficult and significantly less worthwhile for groups/clans to dominate hotspots over multiple worlds - instead, they'll have to make do with what they encounter while running around the wilderness on one world (ideally speaking, of course).

as @small light mentioned, this idea would not work in a vacuum. the wildy needs wayyy more changes to become a healthy pvp area. but most importantly for this idea, putting a limit on hopping and logging would be terrible without some way to ensure there ARE actually players within the wildy on the world you're in. limited wildy worlds, a wildy activity meter on the world list, or an item/spell that tells you how many players are within a large radius of you are some examples of possible approaches.

I do think that, with the right implementation (which this may or may not be), revamping the way logging out works within the wilderness could drastically improve the experience for everyone engaging in wilderness content. it would add a LOT of design space for healthy wilderness content, and paves the way for more interesting/branched escape routes to make the chase a more fair, fun and engaging experience for everyone involved.

[small light]

aye you get the message, next I will be working on Wilderness Agility

I have some further thoughts on it - but maybe yea it really depends on something like wildy activity meter

(heh I think you've been catching on to some of my posts)

[small light]

Wait I just realized you're the same Daniel I've been messaging, I misread your name as someone elses lol

[small light]

I think the biggest "weakness" of forinthry gates I can think of though, is that there will be people who will just guard the forinthry gates.

Those would become hotspots as locations players are passing through, but unlike the teleport lever for mage bank or deserted keep, you cannot escape combat at a forinthry gate, right?

Or was the area near them a full safe zone?

The other weakness is inconvenient worldhopping and getting back to your location, which is kinda the point of it tho.

[pliant pumice]

osrs itself has built-in system for that ::renderself which hides own character. I guess plugin does let you give your character borders

[astral yew]

I didn't know about this until you mentioned it so the average noob isn't going to know that either

IMO in PvP zones, rendering priority should be put onto other players before yours, especially when they're on top of you.

But yeah I think log out mechanics do need reworking in the wilderness. At the very least logging out should put you outside of any dungeon/boss lair you're currently in. Getting crashed by world hoppers when barraging jellies isn't fun.

I think I conceptualized the idea of adding several safe zones near the wildy obelisks a while back where when you log out, you log back in in the nearest safe zone instead of wherever you were.

I don't remember if I made it a full-blown suggestion or not

[small light]

Come to think of it

Aren't there some areas that function as a mini version of the forinthry gate concept due to monsters keeping players in combat?

Thus forcing people to make their way through some caves and have to worldhop further out

@fallen ibex maybe you will know better than I do, I haven't done most new wildy pvm

@craggy lion this is something to consider as a way to apply the concept in isolation instead of the entire wilderness

[astral yew]

There are, the pirates in the pirate hide out and the magic axes in that one shed in deep wildy come to mind

But any mob in singles probably works

[small light]

Iirc people use the axes to x log

Are there monsters littering the boss escape caves?

Do the revs in the cave prevent people from worldhopping directly inside the cave?

Those are two places I have yet to visit as they're new content to me lol

[astral yew]

Boss escape caves are multi so people can still attack you, and revs are non-aggressive if you're wearing a charged bracelet of etherium