#The Fractured Archive - Rewards Primer

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

graceful crest
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yeah and if u make raids 4 have plenty of good loot through the table and the megarare is BIS then you'll want the megarare to chase the other items

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which is plenty of use case by it self

supple dew
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...do we know that?

graceful crest
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not 100% actually but I thought I recalled hearing it would be

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i hope it is

supple dew
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they never say what a boss is so i doubt it. prob just speculation from the community although not unreasonable

graceful crest
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and i suggested earlier make the 3rd inferno/colloseum dropping ther bis mage cape BIS for raid 4 mega

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considering just how much love synapse weapons received i think its justifiable to cater new content to crush weak

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and regardless of a new mega rare making crush op, seeker arrows + new (potential) occult upgrade at least still boosts range and mage weapon dps from what it is now

jaunty river
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How about a spec weapon instead hmm

graceful crest
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we're already getting one from maggot king

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think that area is severely bloated

jaunty river
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I mean like a mega rare spec that blows claws out of the water PAUSERS

graceful crest
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problem is bclaws are already too close to dclaws so you'd further put dclaws in the bin

supple dew
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also same problem as people complained with the Kisten, people want to see their cool mega rare in combat not just for one tick spec. Also a spec mega invalidates a ton of old weapons at the same time, a normal mega just one or two

graceful crest
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kristen as a spec is fine just wish they saved the design of the weapon for a mainhand

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its the design people wanted

jaunty river
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It could have an effect like t bow or scythe that keeps it from being op everywhere

graceful crest
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easier said than done though

jaunty river
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I dont think they should design weapons to not look cool just cuz theyre not main hand

graceful crest
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no one is saying it cant look cool

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the flail design was teased years ago and people wanted it

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and people have been wanting that specifically as a crush weapon

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either way if its not bis i dont care cause Im going to be chasing raid 4 weapon anyway

trim knot
lusty garnet
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Sorta but tbh I assume they’ll just nerf in PvP or let it be insane either way doesn’t matter to me anymore lol they already made sure it’s not something I care about anymore

nova otter
lusty garnet
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That I don’t care if it’s good in PvP or not

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They haven’t made a good PvP update in like

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lol idk that shit is dead

lusty garnet
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But yeah it’s just a thematically cooler way to do a big ballista

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Reminds me of dark souls 1 when you get to anor londo

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And they start bombing you from orbit with these giant bows lol

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It’s like shared trauma from before anyone was good at souls like games in an iconic moment of just probably getting worked and mad at a game

quaint lynx
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i guess this is where i can suggest a reward so here goes: I would like to see a wepon for each style. for melee i would like to see 2 handed daggers that would hit fast and have a little strength bonus( enough of the ham joint and swift blade its time to make a real fast hitting melee wep). these daggers would have a passive special ability that when attacking with them you would have 2 hitsplats like the melee wep from moons of peril but weaker and if both of your hits were successful then it would restore 1% special attack. for magic i would like to see a charged staff that costs one soul rune and one blood rune per charge and would hit the equivalent of a sang staff. this staff would consume damage it deals and when the special is activated would heal nearby allies within a certain distance of you for a portion of what was stored (kind of like how the horn from yama gives accuracy to allies near by). Ranged i would like to see a 2 handed bow that had no special however has 2 different forms which could be toggled between: it would have ricochet mode and barrage mode. Ricochet mode would be the same as venator bow however could bounce an additional 2 times hitting up to 5 targets or could be just a stronger 3 bounce. the barrage mode would make 3 arrows hit the same target at a time similar to how the scythe works but for ranged. and finally i would like to see an armor set that is tribrid based with only lower to mid range accuracy stats and a passive ability that increases the effectiveness of passive effects such as lightbearer, echo boots, regen bracelet. this would focus the raid around giving up something to gain something in return.{balance}

graceful crest
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holy paragraph

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tldr you want a dual handed weapon that restores spec energy

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a sang staff that heals group

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a scythe bow

graceful tinsel
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Isn't the complaint about Sunfire precisely that it comes from endgame content but isn't endgame gear? See how my idea fixes that? Lol

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Plus who's to say the raid wouldn't also release complimentary Prayer-based items designed to be used with the Mega Rare? Fits the whole Guthix/God theme.

ivory pollen
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If that’s the mega rare I willl be rioting in faladorn

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So incredibly boring

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Who cares if sunfire gear is relevant end game

graceful tinsel
ivory pollen
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Not everything needs to be relevant

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Most players like the sunlight spear when it’s a random thing you get from leagues

graceful tinsel
ivory pollen
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Not when it’s raids 4 mega rare

graceful tinsel
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Nope not true at all

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I remember when it first came out a lot of people said it would be a cool future Mega Rare with some tweaks to work better in the main game

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Which is precisely what I proposed

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Gnomonkey even said something along those lines iirc

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It would be a cool idea if Jagex fine tunes it, they can make it work well and make it make sense.

graceful crest
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gnomemonkey also said a prayer armour set reward would be extremely boring too

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gnomemonkey also said he's leaning towards no megarare which i think is asinine so

ripe meadow
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Gear that scales off prayer armor is neat, i just dont see how it can be balanceable as a BIS weapon (which is what a mega would have to be). It could be an option for a secondary item though. For a mega, to prevent a balance nightmare, we'd want the weapon to scale against some property of the monster, not against the rest of your gear (AKA Tbow design good, Shadow design bad).

graceful crest
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so easy to get good prayer gear in the game vs good melee strength in comparison

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so scaling of prayer would be awful

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and what does prayer armour actually do other than make you have closer to infinite prayer

ripe meadow
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now hold up what if prayer on the gear acted as a multiplier for the str on the gear

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inquisitor/torva would get bonuses, sunfire would not

graceful crest
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not sure what you're suggesting that wasnt clear

ripe meadow
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Lets say that the weapon gives your gear strength bonus equal to (prayer bonus*str bonus) instead of (str+prayer).

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I dont think there's currently enough gear in the game with both bonuses, pretty much just torva/inq

glass shadow
graceful crest
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stop plugging your thread

ripe meadow
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1H or 2H isnt as interesting to me as the type of effect

graceful crest
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the main issue isn't if its 3t 4t 5t or 1H, the hardest obstacle is how do you bring it into the game without making TOB dead content and TFA mega still rewarding simuiltaneously

glass shadow
# graceful crest stop plugging your thread

I am allowed to link to the thread, as long as I don't spam it excessively. What do you have against me or it so much that you want me to not share it here? (this is the most relevant channel to share it as we are literally discussing the same thing right now)

graceful crest
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nothing you've just been spamming it for sure

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thats all

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seen you called out about it already too

ripe meadow
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Idk what constitutes spam, but trust me, I've seen your thread.

glass shadow
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You both may have seen the thread, but the last 2 replies in the thread now has added something new that wasn't there before and suggests further shaping of what the megarare perhaps should or shouldn't be, which I'd be very interested to hear people's thoughts on

lusty garnet
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i mean we cant even really talk about tob being dead content or not because we dont even know what jagex is actually cooking for the special effect on the weapon

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all we know is that they wont make it compete with scythe too directly to just make scythe useless based on their word

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tbh

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outside of some randomly cool ideas like that giant str based bow for a non megarare reward they've probably already seen all they need to see

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they were just trying to figure out how people generally felt about stuff

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tbh

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the megarare is probably the least likely idea to change drastically from what they were thinking already barring way too many people just hating the idea

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its the other stuff where they really dont have many ideas if any that someone's suggestion might really go through

ripe meadow
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I am concerned that they dont actually have an idea in mind 0_o. Reward space is not easy.

lusty garnet
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also the raid without a megarare idea i think is just not a good one

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if jagex cant figure out a weapon in a future raid for a megarare its time to make one that isn't a weapon

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but a raid with no big chase item is dead content in a few years

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and something most people will complete somewhat quickly probably

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there pretty much has to be the big cool drop to chase otherwise why would groups of people who maybe already got items from the raid be there to get gp etc

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pretty much everyone is just waiting on that one crazy drop

graceful crest
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and i doubt they do

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im just saying the main priority is to design something that doens't do that, whatever tick or 1/2h the weapon is can be relevant afterwards

lusty garnet
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i mean yeah but its not just scythe they're ducking the other 2 megarares too

graceful crest
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true but easier to balance content around by making range/magic weakness etc

lusty garnet
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it will probably steal some content from all three at the end of the day but as long as its not too crazy it would be fine

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just like when we got shadow and scythe and tbow got replaced at a couple spots

graceful crest
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how do you bring at least 6 other rewards into the game right now that would all make sense

lusty garnet
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ya that one is crazy because its just some huge open ended reward space

graceful crest
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i think it's the opposite , I think there isn't much space at all

lusty garnet
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like i can come up with a piety upgrade and maybe some kind of guthix godsword spec weapon those would be pretty easy

graceful crest
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you either bring new bis or add more horizontal progression which has been exhausted out

lusty garnet
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then i'd have to come up with 1 more item and then an armor set

graceful crest
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yeah a piety upgrade would be nice

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maybe an occult upgrade

lusty garnet
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if it worked like the other raids

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one of the rewards would be a melee offhand so like a shield i guess

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bc defender went with scythe buckler went with bow and ward went with shadow

graceful crest
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tbh i think keeping the rewards all in the same format is extremely limiting

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cox doesnt follow tob or toa format

lusty garnet
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and we basically have 0 cool shield ideas so that one probably wouldn't even be too hard

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the armor set though i have no idea

graceful crest
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how do you bring a shield into the game without dropping avernic in price which is the consistent money maker for tob

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unless you make it too niche

lusty garnet
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tbh tob is basically just the scythe as is

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avernic is only 40m

graceful crest
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yeah its the dex of the raid but the purp rate is good at tob so it's not terrible money

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u dont want it dropping to like 10m with a new bis melee shield

lusty garnet
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also i have no idea what you could do with the shield maybe make it something weird like it recoils damage or like

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make it a crush bonus item or something

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or stab bonus

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so you'd use it over avernic sometimes but not always

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stab probably makes more sense

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spears usually go with shields

graceful crest
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hard to justify a shield imo seeing as avernic or defenders in general are tied to the CA rewards too

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like it could be niche i guess but it just becomes a boring drop

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like the ward

lusty garnet
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yeah but raids kinda need the boring but sometimes useful stuff

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otherwise the table would be super crazy lol

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tob fails at that one the most because its like

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two bis items and then the rest is honestly garbage

graceful crest
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its because they refuse to rework the sang or rapier

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but mage is in such a bad place in general

lusty garnet
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if they want an armor set though that one is just really hard because like

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power level wise

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it should probably be melee armor but we have infinite melee armor lol

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maybe they should just do it anyways honestly

graceful crest
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yeah torva already dropped because of oath and now if you bring another melee armor you're taking away from torva even more

lusty garnet
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idk if too many people will be sad if nex dies for raids 4

graceful crest
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and it absolutely doesn't need a 2nd armor set to attatch to it outside of bandos

lusty garnet
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a lot of people probably wouldn't mind if nex died for no reason lmao

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honestly it should probably combine with like inq due to thematics with the new mega or justi to save tob's table

graceful crest
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blood torva though

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would suck for that to be dead content

lusty garnet
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they already set that precedent which i agree is kind of sad but like

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they killed the masori assembler and the kits for zenyte stuff etc

graceful crest
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the problem is they refuse or take WAY too long to go back and fix content that needs addressing

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and when they address it they don't do enough and it takes them too many iterations over YEARS

lusty garnet
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yeah they're very slow on fixing things

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like they've been talking about tweaking the shadow for literal years

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another funny example is the absolute meme war for torag hammers

graceful crest
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ok i think the torag hammer discussion was asinine

lusty garnet
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they were useless and people kept pointing out they could be cool forever and they were just like yeah it could be but we're not doing anything

graceful crest
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i dont care about barrows equipment rework

lusty garnet
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yeah but it dragged from when barrows was bis

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for more than a decade lol

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lmao they just dont respond well to feedback that they might even agree with

graceful crest
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they are just too scared to change anything or move faster on changes

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most other games at least get balance patches way more frequently

lusty garnet
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the really funny part of that super low key

graceful crest
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a balance patch shouldnt take years

lusty garnet
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you know how they talk about how crush is underserved

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guess what attack style torag is

graceful crest
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yep

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but id rather a crush mega comes in and we get crush content in the future, then to outright not release a crush mega because the content doesn't exist yet

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it's backwards thinking

lusty garnet
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like they actually have crush items in the game they just

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wont make them good enough

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its weird

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yeah i think a crush mega would honestly have content by the time it releases

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like

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maggot king is probably crush pnm is crush new raid would be crush

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araxxor crush

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i guess all of the spider bosses are crush actually

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i think it would probably be good in cox as long as it was like

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respectable vs neutral def

ripe meadow
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plenty of crush content in game right now we just use the weak mode on scythe for it.

graceful crest
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if the rest of the loot table is rewarding then the raid alone is enough content by it self

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to justify it

lusty garnet
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yeah i just think the weapon could drop into the game today and be mostly alright

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as long as the raid comes with it

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i dont think they'd have to work too hard to make even more crush content

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would be nice obv if they kept doing some from time to time

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it would also add pnm to the actual game

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right now pnm is pretty close to just being gear to do more pnm

graceful crest
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you know how scythe is bis for 3x3, an overwhelm passive where if the enemy is 2x2 or smaller it gets a boost would not be a bad shout

ripe meadow
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Except almost all bosses are big

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so youre talking about a slayer monster weapon

graceful crest
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and u can still make large crush weak bosses

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some exist

lusty garnet
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i figure its probably going to have some kind of like additional scaling vs crush targets or like a completely unknown passive

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and just massive crush bonus on it

ripe meadow
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I am still fond of a passive wherein the weapon gets extra damage the more "unbalanced" the monster's defensive melee stats are.

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Math on it gets complicated tho

lusty garnet
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honestly they might really mail it in and put the colossal blade passive on it

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and just say its the crush scythe

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that would be funny but they probably wouldn't really do that

graceful crest
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i think balancing gets exponentially harder if you do make a complicated passive though

lusty garnet
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the complicated passive is good and bad

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its not really even about how complicated it is its that it provides a specific scenario when its good

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so then you can decide when that happens or not

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like how its really easy to make content that a tbow doesn't work on

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but its a bit harder to make a cool boss the scythe doesn't work on but you want us to melee it

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because its not very satisfying to have a small boss

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so you end up really trying to make the scythe inaccurate

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and probably take out every slash weapon in the game

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in the process

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like in toa

ripe meadow
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Going forward they can always put armour on as an anti-scythe mechanic since it hits 3x.

lusty garnet
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that also has a weird drawback where people probably dont like hitting low

graceful crest
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honestly if the weapon became BIS at nex i'd have no issue

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because tbow would still be more reclined

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but no reason fang HAS to be bis for melee

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considering its rarity

lusty garnet
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i just think its interesting that the tbow somehow despite being the first mega without any prior experience making them from jagex

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is the one that actually fits the game the most

graceful crest
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i think the scythe fits well too tbh

ripe meadow
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COX really was lightning in a bottle, has held up so well.

graceful crest
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because it raised the ceiling

lusty garnet
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its probably the easiest of the three to tune where scythe and shadow are varying degrees of weird stuff

ripe meadow
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Although i suppose it did need a rework on all the non olm stuff

graceful crest
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post cox and tob I feel like they've been too scared to raise that ceiling again

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not just in dps terms

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just general innovation

proud dirge
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it's why toa is lackluster

graceful crest
lusty garnet
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the clever thing with the tbow is that it focuses on a stat that doesn't matter too much and is mostly self contained and can be used in any gear

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so jagex can just use that tuning knob however they want to get the tbow exactly where they want it

graceful crest
lusty garnet
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without really messing with other weapons too much

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hopefully whatever the new thing is also has those traits

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so its easy for them to make it good or okay or bad when they want

glass shadow
# graceful crest the main issue isn't if its 3t 4t 5t or 1H, the hardest obstacle is how do you ...

I think I have established a solution for this in my thread, if you don't mind going there to read it. Otherwise I could copy-paste it here if you prefer that?

As it stands, my suggestion looks to be making Avernic more valuable because 1h megarare, and it also leaves Scythe BIS at most of ToB (New 1h crush megarare would look to beat Scythe and Fang on Sotetseg (when taking into account one could viably use DPS spec instead of Def reduction spec) and it would be stronger than Soulreaper axe on Verzik P3, but not quite as strong as Scythe verzik p3 (but pretty close, and in some setups like Inq instead of Torva, it could win Verz p3, but not at all for p1 or p2 tho).

It could be BIS melee for nylos as well, but I think if it ends up being a 3-tick, I think most people would be more interested to see it have the 1 dmg on first hit on successful accuracy roll, then next successful accuracy roll will roll dmg with 2x multiplier, so it has hits as high as a 6tick megarare, but attacks at 3-tick attack speed, rather than hitting 3-tick consistent 45s, people might rather want 90 on 6-tick?

graceful crest
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not a bad shout but genuinely think there's just a space where it's just really good vs crush

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if you try to shoe horn a passive in you get the shadow situation with the mage scaling

proud dirge
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idk if you updated the thread but my answer was pretty much saying there's too many "ifs"

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which isn't helpful really

lusty garnet
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they also let themselves do things more freely with tbow lmao like

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they didn't think about it too hard thematically its like

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why can it do this and they're just like

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magic bro

graceful crest
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its just a cool bow

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its iconic

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i think a ballista would suck ass

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just on vibes

lusty garnet
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yeah i liked that great bow suggestion a lot more than big ballista

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just because of vibes

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that wasn't supposed to be a megarare from that guy though

graceful crest
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tbow already seems like a great bow to me anyway

lusty garnet
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it was just a big bow from the raid like bigger than your player

graceful crest
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if you want another great bow it'd have to be like 6 or 7t

lusty garnet
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dude honestly probably just played ds1

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and got to anor londo

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its one of those bows with a bandos theme lol

ripe meadow
lusty garnet
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i think it would honestly also look cool for pvp if it ended up working that way

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guy just pulls out the biggest bow you've ever seen and kos you with a 70

graceful crest
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dark bow spec exists

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lol

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i think anything larger would start to look a bit silly

lusty garnet
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ya but the dark bow is like probably not quite half the size of the model of the thing the guy suggested

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sec i'll see if i can find it again

graceful crest
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i wonder how they'd deal with the charge situation

lusty garnet
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this was the guys suggestion

graceful crest
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probably going to have some sort of charges

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yeah i saw that

glass shadow
lusty garnet
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the main thing for me though is just the vibe i'd rather see something crazy like that than a ballista

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bc its just cool to see

graceful crest
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i think its just still too close to tbow in design, a ranged mega would have to be not a bow

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like a crossbow or some glock 19s whatever

lusty garnet
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oh yeah thats not supposed to be the mega

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its supposed to be like a fang/bowfa tier reward

ripe meadow
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Youll need to summarize for me here swimzu because as far as i can tell the effect is "if monster's crush defense < player's attack level, increase damage". Am i missing something

carmine parcel
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more guthix themed items

gg0ypwmwqbog1.png
glass shadow
# proud dirge which isn't helpful really

I think I would want Jagex to betatest both 3-tick version, 4-tick version and maybe a slower version too before lock-in poll, so community gets to test the different versions out and see how they feel about them before the deciding poll

graceful crest
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thing is on an iron you grind out bofa for that mid range progression, why would you grind a raid for another range weapon at a similar tier

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blowpipe Ddarts also exist

lusty garnet
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you probably wouldn't but

graceful crest
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i think range progression is very healthy anyway

lusty garnet
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you might skip cg and chase that instead

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somewhere in there he talked about how it would basically compete with bowfa at different points

graceful crest
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true just rock up to the hardest raid in full moon set

lusty garnet
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i also dont know what to think of them saying the hardest raid

graceful crest
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i hope that means at least a gear check

lusty garnet
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on some level that cant be true i refuse to believe they'd make a raid to appeal to fewer people than hmt as the default

graceful crest
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small one at least

lusty garnet
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or like a 600 toa

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etc

graceful crest
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its not going to be 600 toa, i dont think they'd ever use 600 toa as a bar to compare with

lusty garnet
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but maybe they mean its harder than like a normal cox or a 150 toa

graceful crest
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they are probably comparing it to a 3 or 400 toa

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i dont think HMT tob is hard either

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if you have like 300 regular kc u can start doing hm's

glass shadow
# ripe meadow I'll be honest I dont see how a weapon that always hits 1 first is exciting.

It's an attack sequence where the first attack attempts to charge-up the Guthixian energy ball of the flail.

If it rolls a 0, it will be a 0 and it doesn't get charged.
If it rolls successfull, it will be a 1 and it will make a sound effect and visual that attack is charged, the next successful attack probably 3-ticks later than unleashes the charge to hit a 2x multiplier attack which hits a 90.

Are you sure this would not be interesting gameplay and cool to play with?

graceful crest
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HM is more of a gear check

lusty garnet
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for the average random person that raid doesn't even exist but

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i think thats another issue

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i think its that people find it too hard to start tob to begin with

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and not that its like

graceful crest
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tob isnt too hard the issue is finding teams

lusty garnet
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too difficult

graceful crest
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learning tob is actually simple

proud dirge
graceful crest
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its just finding a team as a learner

lusty garnet
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yeah i think people just struggle to get started

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i think actually clearing a normal tob is fairly easy

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but people dont know that everyone assumes its like

proud dirge
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hm is just piss content because folks rush it for kits

lusty garnet
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the hardest shit in the game for some reason

proud dirge
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and barely learn tob as a decent standard

graceful crest
proud dirge
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Yeah word

lusty garnet
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i can kind of see why people struggle with getting into tob though

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like

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if they want to do cox or toa worst case scenario they can just play alone right

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and they can also practice and do stuff without the whole raid resetting on them

graceful crest
proud dirge
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tob is basically you kinda have to not be lazy to get a team

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people don't want to run with other learners is a big thing

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either princess role or wants a mentor

lusty garnet
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then when you get to tob you have to go talk to other people which is already a lot

graceful crest
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plenty of mentor raids or join a clan

lusty garnet
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then if they mess up the raid kicks you all out etc

graceful crest
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you have to go an extra mile but its worth it

proud dirge
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yeah there's plently out there but folks are lazy

lusty garnet
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its just discouraging i think for new people

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where the other raids just kinda let you suck in peace until you figure it out

ripe meadow
proud dirge
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I learned tob with other learners and we spent quite a bit wiping

graceful crest
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well they are releasing a practice mode for the new raid

proud dirge
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which is cool

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in that regard toa is better

graceful crest
proud dirge
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entry mode is ass

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unless you have kc and are just fine-tuning things

graceful crest
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i dont like the idea of 150 toas though

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they should had only make it drop the ring

proud dirge
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yeah I agree

lusty garnet
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its another one of those weird situations where low key cox kinda hit the balance better than toa or tob

graceful crest
#

cox drop rates are bad imo tho

lusty garnet
#

toa just gives you stuff for playing in baby mode and tob crushes some people

graceful crest
#

its just it has more useful drops at least

lusty garnet
#

realistically they should probably just try to make the raid appropriately difficult but do everything they can to let you try again

#

and not make it a huge hassle

graceful crest
#

i think the best things about cox were unintended from the mods anyway

#

like its a massive happy accident

#

they made toa beginner friendly and that ruined the design of the raid

#

made the content tedious to go through

#

would rather raids 4 pushes boundaries like tob did

#

it should be aspirational

#

none of the tob rooms are too hard anyway, the issue is the instant wipe mechanic

#

but they are removing wipe mechanic post release

#

so i dont think this raid will have an issue being really hard

lusty garnet
#

i just hope they understand encouraging and allowing people to freely try challenging stuff and to get better is good

graceful crest
#

they've addresed that with the practice mode

lusty garnet
#

i really hate when they try to make something super hard and then give you a million reasons to not try like losing money on contracts

graceful crest
#

think theres no excuses for people not to learn when you can individually select which boss to practice

lusty garnet
#

i'd rather it be free to enter and the content just has hands and kills you

#

yeah

glass shadow
# ripe meadow Youll need to summarize for me here swimzu because as far as i can tell the effe...

"if monster's crush defense < player's attack level, ignore 50% of targets base defence level. Damage is also increased by a percentage of the defence ignored".

I've shown some examples in the thread where and how this would play out in practice. I could copy-paste from post if u want, I guess, if that's what you're looking for?

If the weapon would be 3-tick, it could either hit up to 50 on 3-tick, or every other attack could have the 2x multiplier and hit up to 100. These hits would probably be somewhere near the cap of the highest dmg scaling tho, so usually it would average more around 45s on 3-tick or 90s every 6-tick ish.

graceful crest
#

but if you do make the hardest raid it needs a bis reward

#

nex has 60 crush defence holy

ripe meadow
# glass shadow "if monster's crush defense < player's attack level, *ignore* 50% of targets bas...

OK so you're taking something like an inverse fang effect, you need to pass multiple accuracy to do damage, but then compensating by ignoring monster defense at a certain threshold? Probably would be completely useless anywhere that you dont meet the threshold effect but there are worse balance issues (Shadow). Still feels like only hitting a 1 on the first hit defeats the point of a fast hitting weapon.

graceful crest
#

cant wait to hammer bonk nex

glass shadow
# ripe meadow The first hit hitting a 1 probably needs to change. I could see something like,...

Nylos is a very, very niche place tho, and I don't really think the megarare's design should prioritize being BIS at Nylos necessarily. It matters much more how it feels to use the weapon, how the gameplay combat loops will be and not making the attacking sequence too long or complex, which doesn't feel good for OSRS combat design systems as we've seen again and again with soulreaper axe for example.. That's why I specifically only designed this to be 1,2,1,2,1,2 for it to be very simple and intuitive and no long "wind-up or charge-up time delay"

graceful crest
#

nylos are 9hp and ham joint goes brrr

glass shadow
graceful crest
#

i just realised doom has a 60 crush defence

glass shadow
graceful crest
#

surely someone comes out with a doom melee method kekw

ripe meadow
#

FWIW i did read the thread, it read like you could waste the charge up if you missed, there was a lot of concepts flying aroudn in there.

jaunty river
#

What content would people want to see a new mega rare beat out other megas

ripe meadow
#

I do quite like the "charge up" concept, i think my quibble is with the first hit being a 1

#

if it was weaker, but still decent (rune scimmy d mace level?)

graceful crest
#

phosanis it should beat scythe

#

theres also araxor

#

maggot king should be weak to crush

#

maggot is a bug so i assume it will be

glass shadow
# ripe meadow OK so you're taking something like an inverse fang effect, you need to pass mult...

No, it's very much not an inverse fang effect. You do indeed to hit a 2nd time to do the full damage of the two attacks, but remember that this the 3-tick version of the weapon. It doesn't take more than a couple seconds to get the 2nd hit off, but the thing is, if you're hitting so many 0s in a row, you are probably using the wrong weapon tho, as it shouldn't really hit many 0s in a row unless it's against some very high crush defence which is where it's not supposed to be good anyway.

No, because the increased damage from the defence ignoring passive is quite small, I imagine the cap being up to 10-15% increased damage or something here, so it doesn't rely fully on the passive to be very scaled to do a lot of damage, but will definitely shine gigastrong where it scaled to cap.

jaunty river
#

Idk i cant see myself being excited to grind the new mega and being like “cant wait to go do nex!” Or any of those bosses

graceful crest
jaunty river
#

Feel like it should be good at something like colo or doom or raids

graceful crest
#

its already going to be bis at the new raid

#

needs more aspirational content in futre to be bis more areas

#

make the mage cape equivalent of inferno weak to crush idk

ripe meadow
#

Any particular reason why you prefer 1-2-1-2 sequence to 1-2-3? Could see (small glow -> big glow -> big hit) being a pretty satisfying sequence as well?

glass shadow
# ripe meadow OK so you're taking something like an inverse fang effect, you need to pass mult...

Yeah, I am unsure to how the hitting of 1 every first hit will feel in practice, I would like to playtest it, hopefully we'd get to test these kinds of ideas in some kind of open beta world before lock-in polls.
If the 1 into 2x multiplier hit design isn't great, then it would be fine as a regular 3-tick weapon too I think. I'm also open to it being 4-tick attack speed too tho, however I think 3-tick looks most interesting, and there are two options for 3-tick I'd like to get opinion polls on: 1: With the 1, then 2x hit design or 2: Regular 1x hits every hit.

ripe meadow
#

What about 0.75,0.75,1.5? Or 0.5, 1.5, or 0.5,0.5, 2. 1 is just a little extreme!

glass shadow
glass shadow
# ripe meadow I do quite like the "charge up" concept, i think my quibble is with the first hi...

I concluded a 1 would be the best for this, as it provides a consistent exp drop that you always will know is the charge-up attack (unless the unleash attack rolled a 1, unlikely enough, lol, maybe the 2nd "unleash" attack should have a minimum hit of 2 just so they are always consistently distinguishes both in hitsplats and exp-drops tho).

I think 1 is kind of really cool as it kind of is a reference to the basics of computing, where everything is a 0=no or 1=yes, like binary, you know?

If the first attack had more damage, then it would have to take that damage from the 2nd attack tho, but ye I mean I'm also open to see what players are interested in about that, like a 0.25 multiplier on first hit, then 2nd instead of 2x could be 1.75x potentially, yeah

glass shadow
# jaunty river Idk i cant see myself being excited to grind the new mega and being like “cant w...

I think you're gonna be excited to try the new megarare and use it alongside a Scythe in many places you'd usually use Scythe or SRA (Vardorvis).

The cool thing about 3-tick design is that it very likely will reward players quite a bit DPS wise by switching to Scythe for the "last-hit" before one is running to a mechanic, like if you need to run to the other side of the room the portal special attack by Olm (bad example cuz usually skipping specials, but there are many mechanics and scenarios you won't be able to constantly be attacking without wasting attack ticks between bosses' special attacks etc.)

So I find it really cool if the 1h megarare and Scythe can sometimes also compliment each other in usage.. 😄

glass shadow
graceful crest
#

Switch scape is not fun

glass shadow
# ripe meadow Any particular reason why you prefer 1-2-1-2 sequence to 1-2-3? Could see (smal...

I think the longer the sequence is, the more the complexity of the usage of the weapon is exponentially increasing. 3x attacks sequence is at least 50% more complex than a 2x sequence in practice, as you gotta think about how many ticks it takes to finish the sequnce of attacks, then how many ticks do you want players to be needing to count to in order to plan or estimate ahead whether or not they'll be able to finish this attack cycle or be better off switching for 1x scythe hit instead.

Also we must not forget that a lot of gameplay and skill expression in OSRS combat comes not from how the weapons themselves function, it also comes through how players are utilizing many different weapons that may be simple in design, but they can be used in different ways, combined with different movement and different timings etc., so it's very easy for the weapon to become "overengineered" and it will negatively affect the other parts of combat that isn't just the weapon itself.

glass shadow
# graceful crest Switch scape is not fun

I'm not saying that it's needed to do that at all, I'm saying there are situational moments where it could be rewarding to do that. The more the attack speeds differ, the more extra DPS one could gain by correct timing and plays. But these are not necessary if you don't want to at all, we're talking now high-end tactics that will shave 10-15 seconds off a 20 minutes ToB or something, it's not like you need to switch at all if you don't prefer minmaxing your DPS however you can and want

ripe meadow
#

Might just be me, but 1,2,3 just feels more natural for a sequence than 1,2

glass shadow
graceful crest
#

They didn’t design the heka and changed it to shadow because the alternating speed of 2 to 4 tick was too complicated apparently

#

I don’t think your sequence suggestion would ever get the time of day respectfully

ripe meadow
#

I thought the reason heka was rejected was b/c it was too "weak"

glass shadow
graceful crest
#

If that was the only reason they could have just buffed the numbers

#

Either way they want a mega rare bis to be easy to use and your suggestion in its design is going against that philosophy

#

A 3t weapon could
Be a reward but I doubt it becomes the mega rare

#

Probably in a fang tier at best

lusty garnet
#

the thing about it is that it was confusing and didn't "feel" strong because the hits weren't big

glass shadow
# graceful crest Either way they want a mega rare bis to be easy to use and your suggestion in it...
  1. A 3-tick weapon can be easy to use (just higher skill-ceiling to perfect not wasting attack ticks)
  2. Where in the blog post did you interpret them saying "easy to use" or "simple" to attack with? I didn't see anything about such a philosphy?

Anyway, let me be clear, my suggestion at it's core is not this 3-tick 0,1 cycle. That's just an optional design if players want it to be 3-tick, and if they want to hit high numbers instead of consistently fast medium-size numbers.
My suggestion of mainhand crush wep with the kind of passive we've been designing is open to be 3-tick, 4-tick or 5-tick or whatever. I think most likely 3-tick or 4-tick are the best options, but 5-tick is possible too (it's up to the players, what gets most upvoted in the end), but I really think 4-tick is a lot better than 5-tick for this mega.

glass shadow
nova otter
nova otter
nova otter
graceful tinsel
# nova otter 5t weapons are boring

They're also the standard for Mega Rares and it would be very difficult to go away from that and make it feel good. The typical Mega Rare experience is "slower 5t attack hit big number dopamine receptor go brrr".

#

People have a lot unique and creative ideas but a lot of them kinda come across as awkward or weird like the Heka, and we don't need a Heka.

#

I'm not against going away from the 5t power weapon formula, but I'm just saying it's a very safe and easy to understand formula for a weapon that everyone can vibe with, and whatever they go away with it for better be cool and worthwhile.

#

It's also simple to balance, you figure out what the max hit is going to be, figure out the max accuracy roll, and you can balance that around a static 5t hit. If you start deviating from that and doing weird stuff, well then balancing becomes tricky. That's also why I think my Prayer spear idea is cool because it does both. It's doing something weird and unique, but it's still a static 5t weapon that will have a very discernable maximum damage scale that you can balance around. You figure out how high the Prayer bonus will scale the damage/accuracy and you balance based on that, easy.

glass shadow
glass shadow
# nova otter 5t weapons are boring

No only that, having most of the best arsenal all being the same attack speed is very bad variety on these end-game weapons, and now there's also the 5t SRA, Nox Hally and Fang in the endgame meta as well, we definitely need 3t or 4t option on the next megarare...

graceful tinsel
#

Like I said I'm open to something else, but I don't necessarily think it can be 3t. 3t is so fast that the weapons usually have to be rather weak or else you end up with something just disgustingly broken like the Ayak, but even then you have to make them weaker than existing Mega Rares otherwise that would just be way too fast for a powerful weapon or be so weak that it's just a Nylo room weapon.

I think 4t could work but doesn't really feel "Mega Rare". Like if we get a new T85 Rapier or Longsword or Mace, well that's just some random new standard melee weapon and could come from anything from a Slayer boss to being a standard purple from a raid, but not really Mega Rare tier imo

I have seen some cool ideas for like a chain that's kind of like a ranged melee weapon, see below: https://x.com/Huntosrs/status/2031321307690807314?s=20

dusty forge
#

that chain idea is prob the coolest idea ive seen yet ngl

glass shadow
# graceful tinsel Like I said I'm open to something else, but I don't necessarily think it can be ...

Did you see the discussion above or in my suggestion how I suggested a 3-tick can work whilst very high hits like a 6tick wep? What you're saying here implies that you haven't seen how that's quite easily designable, but it wouldn't work well for nylo room in my suggestion for how a hard-hitting 3-tick would work tho..

I think we can be confident they wouldn't powercreep the T90 Megarare with a T85 rapier/longsword/mace....Even if it's 4-tick speed, that doesn't make a difference.

And I don't think that utility weapon that could attack up to 3 tiles fits as a megarare.

glass shadow
#

Here is the passive I am eluding to above for those who don't have X/Twitter, design credits to DrunkenMonkArt:

  • Ignores a flat amount of an enemy's crush defence based on your crush accuracy bonus. If this flat reduction puts the enemy's crush defence below 0, gain bonus minimum hits based on how far into the negatives it is
knotty pond
#

imo a mrare is something that has good potential existing use cases that are desriable and dps of item is high. tbh idt they can really create something as insane as tbow or shadow scy even if they tried

#

unless they are willing to creep over them

#

any item they create is gona compete with scy or shadow or bow. theres nothing close imo to introducing a mega to a cmb style for the first time

#

so imo the powerlvl/expectations of the next mega should be weaker/lower in power

sage pier
#

A new idea for a shield mega rare could be piggybacked off of the it improves your main hand via crush or damage inflicted to you then goes into your minimum hit etc, there’s a lot of special effects, but for a special attack option it would be really nice to be able to take on an actual tank role and immediately get focused in content, obviously this means more content needing to be meant for this eventually and we have the goading potions but no one’s gonna rock that into a raid for example

graceful crest
#

dins already exists as a tank shield

graceful crest
#

if it's going to be hardest raid in the game it deserves to be better

#

even if marginal

#

highest dps possible should be slightly above the highest dps possible for scythe

#

and then you seperate them between use cases

knotty pond
#

right but how do you do that when scythe exists? do you just release scythe 2 and make tob pointless?.if ur having to split use cases I think thats weaker then what scy was on release. ive seen some strong suggestions but unless ur willing to creep over existing mrares I dont see how next mrare can feel insanely strong

graceful crest
#

one is a crush weap

#

one is a slash weap

#

slash bosses exist

#

bring more crush bosses

knotty pond
#

so u have to wait for crush bosses to come into game for it to be good? to an extent thats fine but I wouldint say thats a strongest mrare wouldint say thats better then scythe in terms of power.

graceful crest
#

you could use it at nex PNM, new raid, and potentially maggot king

#

thats 4 areas already

#

with room for more

#

scythe wasnt in a good area until they released vard and duke as well

knotty pond
#

nex is weak to stab u need something crazy to make crush better then fanging

graceful crest
#

it has 60 crush def

#

a mega can beat it at stab

#

if u make the other rewarsd good the raid it self is a giant use case for the weapon

knotty pond
#

scy when it released was bis crush and slash weapon. tob/cox 2/2 raids when nm was worth doing for money scy was bis. it wasint as busted as tbow but its better then a generic crush mrare imo. anyways if thats the levle of power ur refering to then i think we can introduce a lot of things and they feel "strong"

graceful crest
#

not sure what the argument is

jaunty river
#

u want a side grade to scythe not a mega rare i think is what he's getting at

#

whats the next best thing to any of the mega rares, look at the gap in dps

#

you cant get that from scythe to what ever the crush mega will be

knotty pond
#

im saying crush mrare without more details isint really that strong. ud need a lot of context for people to care about it over a scy in terms of progression

graceful crest
#

what details are lacking, do you mean in where to use it

#

or what the passive/scaling is

jaunty river
#

you're basically saying you want a weapon thats a little bit better at crush weak bosses than scythe but not too much better or else it will devalue scythe

graceful crest
#

its going to tread on scythe either way

#

in one form or another

#

whether its a sidegrade or not

#

maybe it does need more use cases but it would make more sense to plan around future content then to only plan around what's in the game already

#

but in that last point I mean don't not release a weapon, because that would massively take away from the new raid

#

so you either trample a bit on the scythe or you trample entirely on the new raid it self

graceful crest
#

you don't not go for a fang because scythe exists and vice versa etc

knotty pond
# graceful crest what details are lacking, do you mean in where to use it

both idt this mrare is gona drop and ppl are going to care about it more then scy. but there are a lot of hidden use cases like it being better at nex is due to its mrare status. rather then nex being weak to crush. or neutral npcs like olm hand. but its also competeing with scy and i think there will be pushback on some encounters "This is scy content!"

graceful crest
#

if it out performs fang at nex by a decent margin that's a pretty strong use case imo

#

but like I said, if the other rewards at raids 4 are worthwhile, and the megarare is bis for that raid, it gives you access to the bis money making in the game

#

that alone is a giant use case

knotty pond
#

i agree but those things are harder to advertise till it comes into game/theres more context

#

most ppl would need time to understand crush mrare ye its gona be bis at nex

graceful crest
#

nex, pnm, maggot king(?), raids 4

#

and there are no details yet

#

so there could be more use cases

knotty pond
#

vardorvis is another one and maybe kephri at toa but they arent weak to crush just close enough for mrare to win

graceful crest
#

yeah annoyingly the str and crush defence is close at vard

#

i dont think there's a world where every box can be ticked, the compromise is in who do you piss off or what do you powercreep

jaunty river
#

if they devalue scythe can they at least make the other tob drops useful xd

graceful crest
#

yeah so that's a problem with the tob rewards rather than the scythe it self

jaunty river
#

yeah scythe is fine i dont think anyones arguing that

graceful crest
#

another scenario i could see is scythe remains bis for low defense and crush weapon works better when monster has some defence

#

sort of like fang

#

i dont really care if fang is devalued cause it was never meant to be a mega

jaunty river
#

fang was a massive mistake

graceful crest
#

rather than an extra accuracy roll, could have something where it scales with crush defence

#

so the max hit goes higher but obvs the higher and higher the crush defence is you're not really hitting

#

so it doesn't just break the game

#

could be small scaling so at low crush defence its still very strong

#

nah idk

#

every idea of how to make this work steps on scythe in one way or another

glass shadow
# graceful crest another scenario i could see is scythe remains bis for low defense and crush wea...

This is exactly what my suggestion is designed to aim for, where I think it should be able to powercreep past Fang at Nex and whatnot. (Details here: https://discord.com/channels/324132423636090880/1479324340565835806). This seems definitely doable to design.

Also, I think that DrunkenMonkArt's idea is really interesting and could work really well as well, which is:

  • Ignores a flat amount of an enemy's crush defence based on your crush accuracy bonus. If this flat reduction puts the enemy's crush defence below 0, gain bonus minimum hits based on how far into the negatives it is.

One could modify this a bit and change the "minimum hit" to instead do an increased damage multiplier, so that it would see a similar passive to Twisted bow when it's strong and scales then both on strength bonus and crush accuracy, which I find a really neat design as it makes crush accuracy really relevant for scaling the DPS with the weapon. This further leans into wielding the correct/best armour for the weapon and not just any general high str amour etc. making players' choice of armour (oathplate vs torva vs inquisitor) even more impactful.

trim knot
hard swallow
#

Heavy machine gun that shoots ballistas at 2t jagex please

nova otter
#

Shoots ballistae, not javelins

hard swallow
#

Of course

#

Lmao whoops

graceful crest
#

akimbo model shotguns

lusty garnet
#

Tbf I think it would be quite easy for jagex to support scythe and crush weapon without everyone just ignoring one of them

#

I think that people worried about that are kind of in chicken little mode

#

You’d simply make one really good at crush npcs and bad at slash npcs make sure neither one is just insanely better when it’s a neutral situation and delete crush from scythe

#

There’s obviously gonna be a passive that we don’t know about from the crush weapon that helps separate scythe and it on npcs where def is roughly equal so some things are better for one or the other

#

But there’s miles of space to work on all of this

#

Scythe is currently used at like 44% of all bosses lol

tepid saddle
#

I feel like if they add a crush weapon as a reward it wont be a megarare. it will be just a normal rare

glass shadow
lusty garnet
#

i would be a little surprised if they backed off of crush

#

their logic/setup with the maggot king boss going into raids 4 seems pretty locked in overall barring tons and tons of people just really hating the idea

#

but it seems like most people are discussing how to make the crush weapon instead of if it should be crush

#

so its probably happening

#

tbh the crush spec weapon from the maggot king only really makes sense in the context of raids 4 being a crush raid

#

it would be a pretty honestly useless item without that happening lol

tepid saddle
#

I just dont really feel like there is space for a second melee megarare,
I'm just think it makes more sense for the crush weapon to be in the same boat as fang

lusty garnet
#

did you know the scythe currently gets used at almost twice as many bosses as the tbow

tepid saddle
#

blame the shadow for that

#

shadow took over most of tbows use cases

lusty garnet
#

its also used at substantially more places than the shadow

#

scythe is very close to actually being used more than shadow and tbow combined lol

#

tldr there is plenty of space for a second melee weapon

tepid saddle
#

there is no way tbow is used more than shadow

lusty garnet
#

no im saying the scythe is used more than shadow

#

the scythe is close to being used for half of the total bosses in the game

#

its pretty insane lol

#

although tbf i think maybe we should somehow get a list of like

#

filtered bosses for each weapon

#

instead of just counting everything on the hiscores

#

because i dont think any of us really care about the ideal weapon for bryo

#

etc

tepid saddle
#

scythe also excels at early mode bosses because they all have no particular weakness and low defence

graceful tinsel
glass shadow
#

#1481340966781587456 message

tepid saddle
#

my question is how much do you want to encroach on scythe?

glass shadow
glass shadow
#

And to clarify, I think also Scythe should remain BIS on low defence 3x3 or larger monsters where slash and crush def are equal, or when the monster is Elder Mauled down to 0 def like Maiden and Xarpus etc. Obviously if slash defence is lower than crush defence on a monster, Scythe wins too, that goes without saying.

But I think the ideal design would have the crush megarare to not be too far behind Scythe on 3x3+ size monsters with 0def or very low def, then I think it should be around Soulreaper Axe at 5 stacks constantly or just above that. 🙂

hard swallow
#

Im the current meta, scythe def feels like the best megarare in the game.

Shadow is in a weird spot where if you love toa go for it but otherwise its not like insane anywhere else. Tbow has doom and it clears inferno and collo, good but doesnt dominate cox and tob.

#

I would tend to agree though a crush dps weapon doesnt really make a ton of sense as a megarare. Rarity to set it around 100-500m would feel more appropriate for use cases

tepid saddle
#

I don't think any other equipment slot feels like it could fit a mega rare besides maybe jewelry, but I don't know if that's the path they want to go down
Personally I'm leaning more towards something consumable like prayer scrolls but that introduces other issues like not being resellable

graceful crest
#

jewelry is boring af though

#

for it to be a "mega"

#

why pay 2b if you cant show off a big shiny stick

#

and a scroll shouldn't be a mega either

lusty garnet
#

you would say that about all of the megarares if their raids weren't content for them

#

and by you i mean pretty much everyone

#

they're all useful in their own raids then pick and choose from some other content but the big deal is always the raid giving them their biggest use case

#

and if this thing releases it comes with its raid

#

it would be in a very comparable situation to the current megas

#

like the truth if it released would be that it would have its own raid for a big niche then obvious stuff like pnm and maggot king

#

theres basically no way it wouldn't be included as a swap in tob and cox

#

then you'd have to figure out the less important stuff and maybe a few more important bosses like it might be good at nex

#

you'd get all your spider bosses etc

#

tldr it would have a niche

#

and it would not be small

hard swallow
#

Shadow made sense, by the time that came out it was obvious

#

Scythe really had a problem of content not existing for it

#

Idk hard to say with tbow. But it was one of 3 "megarares" just happened to be the one that mattered down the road

#

Kodai at the time was bis

lusty garnet
#

tbow was the only actual megarare in the raid

#

from day 1 the tuning for it was insane on paper and even more crazy in game lol

#

idk why they put maul and kodai on the same drop rate

#

they weren't even intended to be comparable

#

they actually hotfixed bosses to make the tbow not melt them

#

oh and theres a decent chance its a good colo weapon as well

#

obviously depending on exactly how the effect on whatever crush weapon works but npcs in that place afaik usually just have neutral def stats

#

like manticores are all +0s and sol is only +30 crush def and +5 slash

#

so theres a solid chance that while it probably wouldn't beat scythe that it could still be like the second best weapon for it

hard swallow
#

For sure, just were in a trickier spot with tobs loot and a crush mega could hit that hard

#

Anything scythe or shadow displaced besides tbow was like... Whatever, but tob has so much value tied up in scythe. We need to upgradescape sang or justi, or rapier or something.

graceful crest
#

so the problem is if the new weapon beat or is comparable to scy in a lot of places tob becomes dead content

#

but the problem is in the loot table of tob it self

#

so rather than band aid fixing by making raids 4 worse

#

the mods need to do a giant integrity change of the existing 3 raid drops as it is

#

TOA is proabably in a healthy state now finally but there is absolutely no reason they can't update COX and TOB to be improved with the release of raids 4

hard kite
#

no, they need to lean into resistances and weakness more

#

and stop with this stupid, well this other style is just a little bit worse

graceful crest
#

well i've argued they should lean into the slash and crush weakness anyway and if it doesn't exist in enough places already it can in the future

#

but there's no reason the tob rewards can't be improved and COX table can't be improved

#

aka with tob give rapier and sang an actual use and with cox rework the scroll drop rates for CMs

#

on the shit roadmap they've announced for this year there's another summer sweep up they've left blank

#

they should absolutely address the current raids before the release of raids 4

graceful tinsel
#

I think there's a very good argument to be made against a crush Mega Rare for the simple fact that there technically is already one, and it's called the Elder Maul. Before the changes that turned it into a spec weapon that's exactly what it was, a niche 2h slow crush weapon, it wasn't use for much but it did have its uses, although it was mainly replaced by the Scythe having a crush option, if the Scythe never had a crush option the Elder Maul would've been much more usable historically. What we're truly missing is a stab Mega Rare.

graceful crest
#

outside of rarity its not a mega rare

graceful tinsel
graceful crest
#

and if it is its a spec weapon

graceful tinsel
#

The term Mega Rare originates from the Mega Rare Drop Table at CoX

#

Which hosts the Tbow, Kodai, and Elder Maul

graceful crest
#

yes if you want to use the literal term for it

graceful tinsel
graceful crest
#

and it was hot garbage for 7 years too

graceful tinsel
#

It was precisely what you would envision is a Mega Rare.

graceful crest
#

no i wasnt

hard kite
#

that ship sailed when they gave it the better dwarhammer spec

graceful tinsel
#

A slow hard-hitting 2h weapon that specializes is a specific style.

graceful crest
#

it was the most useless piece of content in the game

#

there was a reason it was 5m

graceful tinsel
#

Thanks the Scythe's fault

#

Not the Maul's fault.

graceful crest
#

no it was just bad

graceful tinsel
graceful tinsel
#

Unfortunately the Scythe on Crush was usually just better

#

The Maul is still objectively, by the original definition of Mega Rare, a Mega Rare. You can cope and execute the necessary mental gymnastics to say otherwise or whatever, but this is just simply factual lol

graceful crest
#

its not cope

#

and i said outside of rarity, no one actually considers it in the same tier of the actual 3 mega rare weapons

#

which are in their own bracket

graceful tinsel
#

Except for the OSRS Wiki lol

graceful crest
#

you're not getting the point

graceful tinsel
#

No no, you're not getting the point, that's kinda my point.

graceful crest
#

no

graceful tinsel
#

We have a crush Mega Rare and it is, at this point, very useful.

#

Technically two if you count the Scythe lol

graceful crest
#

you're making an argument about pedantics of what technically is or isn't classified as a megarare in teh wiki

#

no one cares if elder maul is considered a mega rare or not its a fucking spec weapon

graceful tinsel
#

It's not technically it is the literal birth of the term "Mega Rare".

#

It refers to the rarest unique roll from a raid

#

CoX has 3 the others have 1

#

As shown in the screenshot

graceful crest
#

so when 99% of people refer to there being 3 megarares in the game

#

you're telling them they are wrong because of pedantics

#

is that your argument

graceful tinsel
#

Technically there is a separate term that refers to those

#

Players often refer to those as the Power Weapons

#

They've just kinda blended the two terms together

hard kite
graceful crest
#

yes its pedantics

graceful tinsel
#

Mega Rares, Power Weapons, same shit basically.

graceful tinsel
hard kite
#

not saying that

graceful tinsel
#

What do you think "Mega Rare" means?

#

Like what do those words mean

hard kite
#

saying the type of mega, switched

graceful crest
#

🤦‍♂️

graceful tinsel
#

Yes it is a spec weapon, correct, we all knew that.

#

But some people are even suggesting new Mega Rares to have specs

#

So how is that different from what the Maul currently is?

hard kite
#

mega's shouldnt have spec, unless specially a spec only use

graceful crest
#

to have specs yes, not be a spec weapon

#

primarily

graceful tinsel
#

The only reason it was so cheap was because it was so niche most people didn't have a reason to own one.

#

Supply and demand.

#

It's rarity was still that of a Mega Rare by literal definition.

graceful crest
#

and the demand was absolutely minimal

graceful tinsel
#

Why are you repeating what I'm saying lol

#

I just said that, like literally

graceful crest
#

so yes you are right it's technically a megarare but no one considered it a megarare in terms of power

#

idk you're hard arguing for the sake of pedantics

graceful tinsel
#

It doesn't matter what players consider or not, Mega Rare literally means "more rare than rare" or "super rare".

#

It is on the mega rare table, so it's a mega rare.

graceful crest
#

👏

graceful tinsel
#

Jagex has obviously shifted their raid designs more recently to only house one super powerful weapon in the mega rare table.

#

But the Elder Maul and Kodai are still Mega Rares by being on the Mega Rare table.

#

So to ask for a crush Mega Rare doesn't feel right when we technically have two already.

#

The Maul AND the Scythe, both can use crush so both are by definition crush Mega Rares.

#

Now if you want to make the argument the Scythe should lose its crush style then sure that's fine.

graceful crest
#
  1. people are asking for a crush main weapon not a spec weapon
  2. people are asking for crush to be removed from scythe
graceful tinsel
#

But we'd still have 1 crush mega rare, 1 slash mega rare, and zero stab mega rare.

#

We need a stab mega rare first before it feels right to do another crush mega rare.

graceful tinsel
#

"Take the Scythe's crush niche away, and then add a new weapon that just replaces that."

lusty garnet
graceful tinsel
#

When you could do SO much more.

lusty garnet
#

if it actually took half of the scythes niche the scythe would merely be as useful as the tbow

#

and honestly theres no way it takes half

graceful tinsel
#

There is literally a wide open reward space for a stab Mega Rare that wouldn't encroach on any current Mega Rares literally at all.

lusty garnet
#

not really

graceful tinsel
#

It would bench the Fang at a lot of places but that's fine, the Fang isn't a Mega Rare anyways.

hard kite
#

how do we proceed though past the fang?

lusty garnet
#

if you released any new megarare that didnt encroach on any of the current megarares

graceful crest
#

fang can be powercrept

graceful tinsel
lusty garnet
#

it would have like two pieces of relevant content

graceful tinsel
#

The Fang isn't Mega Rare tier, power wise, not even close.

lusty garnet
#

it would be the toa and new raid pole

graceful tinsel
#

And Nex potentially

#

There's other content you use stab at

hard kite
#

i dont mind either

graceful crest
#

where are we using the new stab weapon

#

not arguing against it

#

i just want your examples

graceful tinsel
#

Corp

graceful crest
#

corp and toa

#

what else

graceful tinsel
#

Nex and TFA

#

Sire if it beats Emberlight, cuz atm Emberlight just barely beats Fang.

hard kite
#

but them actually give resistances/weaknesses a clear cut, this or that, would help define what weapon to use and which places

graceful crest
#

so crush could literally have almost the same use cases if not more

lusty garnet
#

you kinda need new megas to take over some niches just not too many

#

otherwise it would be like

#

a second tier mega

#

like in a perfect world if you have four it splits everything with each weapon getting about 25% usage

#

if they miss and its like 15% they'll have to make more content for it

#

if they really mess up and its like 5%

#

we're just pissed

graceful tinsel
#

So 4 or 5 relevant places where a mega rare spear would be instantly usable and probably BiS, that's pretty good tbh

graceful crest
#

and why would crush be a bad option instead?

graceful tinsel
#

Cuz it steps on the Scythe at a lot of places and technically by definition we have two Mega Rares that can crush already.

graceful crest
#

if i were to mention nex, PNM, raids 4, maggot king(?) at a minimum

graceful tinsel
#

I'm not against a mainhand crush Mega Rare, I just think it's too soon for one.

#

For raids 5 sure let's send a crush wep

#

But for raids 4 there's such easy free reward space for stab

graceful crest
#

raids 5 isn't coming until 2031 at this rate

graceful tinsel
#

Cuz there are precisely 0 stab mega rares

lusty garnet
#

i honestly dont think you'll get back to back melee megas like that either

graceful crest
#

yeah you wont

graceful tinsel
#

Fair point

graceful crest
#

could be 2040 by the time we get it

graceful tinsel
#

Raids 5 will probably be Range

#

If you follow my Elder Maul logic, Mage technically has two as well.

#

So Raids 5 would give us the 2nd Range Mega

#

And then we'd have 2 of each style

lusty garnet
#

yeah but nobody really considers those megarares

graceful tinsel
#

Doesn't matter

lusty garnet
#

they're just shitty items with high drop rates

graceful tinsel
#

They still are Mega Rares.

graceful crest
#

it does matter

#

just because it is in the wiki

#

doesnt mean thats how the players treat them as weapons in game

graceful tinsel
#

No because there is a separate term for the weapons you want to refer to

#

A lot of the community calls them Power Weapons

#

As in, the best weapon of each raid/for each combat style.

lusty garnet
#

i haven't called anything a power weapon since getting rockets in halo 3

graceful crest
#

ive never heard the use ofterm power weapon before you mentioned it

graceful tinsel
#

Then you don't watch a lot of YT ig

graceful crest
#

yes i do

graceful tinsel
#

Cuz a lot of YouTubers used that term until recently when the topic of Mega Rares became hot.

graceful crest
#

and most people say there are 3 megas in the game

#

nearly all

graceful tinsel
#

Now that raids 4 is on the horizon people have started to use Mega Rares.

graceful crest
#

even if in literal terms that isnt the case

graceful tinsel
graceful crest
#

yes you're right for the sake of pedantics ONLY

lusty garnet
#

the only time i've heard megarare stretched to other stuff recently would be for ely

graceful tinsel
#

But it's relevant to at least mention the other two weapons

lusty garnet
#

and i dont really agree with it but i get why they said that

graceful tinsel
#

Because the Elder Maul IS a Mega Rare and IS a crush weapon.

lusty garnet
#

and in the distant past they did say that about maul and kodai

#

but that was when we only had 1 raid

graceful tinsel
#

So do we really need a 3rd melee crush weapon mega rare?

lusty garnet
#

and it was the megarare table

graceful tinsel
graceful crest
#

you're looking too deep into the term it self

graceful tinsel
#

The term "Mega Rare" was coined referring to the rarest unique table at CoX and that term has continued for each raid where that roll only has 1 weapon now.

#

Which I imagine will continue, although Gnomonkey said he'd like to see them go back to 3 lol

lusty garnet
#

but like today if someone says megarare

#

they mean scythe tbow shadow

graceful tinsel
#

But have like 3 "mini" mega rares instead of 1 super OP mega rare.

graceful tinsel
graceful crest
graceful tinsel
#

Did you guys see his recent appearance on Flomple's channel?

graceful crest
#

are you basing all of your opinions off of gnomemonkey

#

and yes i did

graceful tinsel
#

He said something to the effect of "I'd like to see them do something more like CoX where there's 3 Mega Rares technically but they're not like Tbow Megas they're more like Maul/Kodai Megas"

graceful tinsel
#

I can't stand most of what he says lmfao

#

But I'm only saying it for the context of making my point

#

There are other players who remember the other Mega Rares.

lusty garnet
#

yeah so he was awkwardly referring to the actual megarare table

graceful tinsel
#

I don't even agree with his take of doing 3 megas

#

I hate that idea

#

But I'm bringing it up because he recognizes that those 2 are also Mega Rares, which proves my point.

graceful crest
#

he also suggested not having a mega at all so you're looking too into it

graceful tinsel
#

That was his original take from a video like a week ago

#

He has since changed his take to the current one

lusty garnet
#

i see what he's saying but i think its a bad play long term

graceful tinsel
#

Where he wants to see 3 "minor" Mega Rares that are more like the Maul/Kodai and less like a Tbow/Scythe/Shadow.

#

I think it's a shit take, but it's relevant to the discusion that it's important to recognize that those ARE still Mega Rares.

lusty garnet
#

the only way that works is if the whole raid's table is like good/useful/bis

#

so people keep going back to it

graceful crest
#

you hate the guy can we stop quoting gnomemonkey anyway

graceful tinsel
lusty garnet
#

but that wipes out a ton of reward space from ever being allowed to be replaced

graceful tinsel
#

It's Gnomonkey not Gnomemonkey

graceful crest
#

bro

graceful tinsel
#

If ur gonna flame him do it properly

graceful crest
#

🤦‍♂️

lusty garnet
#

because then they'd be in a situation where a bunch of collectively good items were holding up raids 4

graceful crest
#

this is such an asinine conversation

lusty garnet
#

and they couldn't chip away at them

#

where honestly

graceful tinsel
graceful crest
#

sure

lusty garnet
#

jagex could let tob rot and everything but the scythe can be replaced and suck forever

#

and tob will live

#

because of the scythe

graceful tinsel
#

I'm a top tier ragebaiter I can't help it bro, sorry

graceful tinsel
#

Give it a use

#

Pls

#

Gagec

graceful crest
#

im not even mad you've just been talking shit it is what it is lol

lusty garnet
#

thats the real strength of megarares i think

#

they can basically hold down the content forever in exchange for jagex not really being allowed to replace that one slot

graceful tinsel
#

Yeah but eventually all BiS will be surpassed.

lusty garnet
#

i actually think its almost questionable that they chose to do that with weapons

graceful tinsel
#

There will come a time when Scythe is no longer BiS slash for example.

#

Maybe it'll still have some niche uses for like specced down bosses

lusty garnet
#

like if they had just given you an insane necklace at each raid it could've done the same thing without basically disabling weapon ideas in the future

graceful crest
#

there wont come a time because if raids 4 won't creep on the current 3 power weapons why would raids 5 or 6

graceful tinsel
#

But like, we'll eventually have T90 longsword or scimitar/saeldor-equivalent that beats it in a lot of scenarios.

lusty garnet
#

i think theres room to play with like

graceful tinsel
#

There's only so many niche and sidegrade options.

lusty garnet
#

you can add more megarares and divide the game up even more between them as long as they each get their slice

graceful crest
#

there's already too many niche sidegrade options

graceful tinsel
#

At some point they have no choice but to just, you know, release better shit lol

lusty garnet
#

but its going to eventually become kind of impossible once we have like

#

8 megas instead of 4

graceful tinsel
#

Scythe will still have a couple uses but it won't be the "BiS" melee Mega Rare one day.

lusty garnet
#

scythe should always be like

#

the big slash weapon probably

#

you cant make it too niche

#

but it doesn't have to just be like

#

the only melee weapon

graceful tinsel
#

There will come a day where we have something that's stronger than a Saeldor or SRA for slash

#

And Scythe's only niche will be for 3x3 or bigger slash

#

And even then depending on the def lvl

#

Scythe could be worse

lusty garnet
#

the 3x3 niche isn't even a niche

graceful tinsel
#

Like Scythe could be relegated to "use this on low def 3x3"

lusty garnet
#

the niche is not being a 3x3 boss

graceful tinsel
#

Not just "use this on 3x3"

lusty garnet
#

almost everything is large because like

graceful tinsel
#

Yea no shit lol

#

You're missing my point

lusty garnet
#

how do you make a cool visually satisfying boss that isn't that big

graceful crest
graceful tinsel
#

Absolutely.

#

Things can't stay BiS forever

#

That's how you get a stagnant game and things become boring.

#

Now it will certainly take a long time to get there and they might ruin the game again before then, but assuming the game continues as its been doing, yes.

#

Now if we get EoC2 before then and then OSRS Classic then maybe you'll be right and we won't get there lmao

graceful crest
#

so you're saying don't release a crush weapon because it removes some scythe use cases but eventually a slash weapon will also release and potentially devalue scythe anyway

graceful tinsel
#

Yeah like 10-20 years from now.

#

I'm not even against a crush weapon

#

I said I'd be totally fine with that from one of the next raids.

#

I just think it overlaps too much with existing Mega Rares.

#

Whereas a stab Mega Rare doesn't at all.

#

No Mega Rare, not even the CoX pseudo-Mega Rares, has a stab attack style.

#

That's wide open reward space.

#

People make the argument that the Fang is like borderline Mega Rare-tier but that's not true imo, the Fang is more like a melee Bowfa than a melee Tbow, it hits consistently but it doesn't hit particularly high.

graceful crest
#

im not against a stab mega either, im 100% against not bringing out a new "power" weapon and keeping tbow/shadow/scythe as the trifecta forever

#

crush or stab is fine

graceful tinsel
#

We can get stab spear for raids 4, heavy ammo ballista for raids 5, and then a crush mega rare for raids 6, deal?

#

And then some niche for Mage for raids 7.

#

The Harm2 for elemental spells lmao idk

graceful crest
#

WW3 will probably start before we even get to raids 5

graceful tinsel
#

Depending on who you ask

#

One can make the argument WW3 already started.

graceful crest
#

yes or even before raids 4

graceful tinsel
#

But that's a completely off-topic discussion

graceful crest
#

but the way jagex has been drip feeding content into the game

#

in comparison to the years when cox and tob released

#

i hate the idea of planning for stuff 5 years down the line

graceful tinsel
#

Here's another issue I have with making a crush mega rare right now. To make a crush weapon be better than the Scythe on crush for 3x3 and larger monsters, you'd have to make it VERY good, even full Inq with the mace in max crush gear doesn't beat the Scythe in a majority of use cases they have in common, at PNM it comes very close but Scythe is still better.

#

Wheras with stab, all you have to do is make it be just better than a Fang, you don't have to scale it against the Scythe.

graceful crest
#

whats the issue with making it very good in that use case

graceful tinsel
#

That you're taking away like half of the Scythe's usability and introducing an incredibly broken weapon?

#

Whereas with stab the weapon can be more balanced and reasonable and still be BiS for its intended use cases.

graceful crest
#

one thing to note is that if you don't remove crush from scy it still remains a mega you can use for crush AND slash content, and the new weapon might only be bis at crush but no where else

graceful tinsel
#

Because all you have to beat is a Fang and that's not hard to do.

graceful tinsel
graceful crest
#

i dont think using it at nex is an issue in fact that was one of my arguments for a use case for it

graceful tinsel
#

And there’s a lot of places like that where crush isn’t technically “the best” thing to use, but it could be if you released a mega rare even more OP than the Scythe.

#

I don’t like it

graceful crest
#

well the healthiest thing to do is to keep them in similar dps and lean into weaknesses as mentioned

graceful tinsel
#

Nex is a stab and range boss and should stay that way

graceful crest
#

it doesnt HAVE to be a stab boss

graceful tinsel
#

I don’t even like the fact that it is a stab boss lol

#

I prefer range setups at Nex

graceful crest
#

range is reclined vs melee so I dont see a disadvantage of melee being better dps

graceful tinsel
#

Thankfully with the new range necklace and arrows that will for the most part kill melee methods

graceful crest
#

at nex

graceful tinsel
#

They’re pretty close in actual DPS as I do a lot of mixed teams and MvP over meleers on a consistent basis

#

But if you make a crush mega rare even better than say, post-Blood Moon Rises Range

#

I have an issue with that

graceful crest
#

yeah they are close because fang is not crazy strong

graceful tinsel
#

Correct

#

A stab mega rare would definitely become the meta for Nex though I think

graceful crest
#

i dont see raids 4 being a stab raid anyway

#

considering TOA melee is purely stab

#

it wouldn't make sense for it to release a stab mega rare if its not a stab raid either

#

tob exists as a slash raid and cox is in its own world

#

tbh a world can exist where in raids 4 you don't primarily use crush in every room

#

and bringing both scythe and the new weapon is optimal or etc

#

e.g if there are 7 bosses, crush/stab is bis for 5 rooms and slash for 2

#

can retain some uses for scythe

glass shadow
glass shadow
#

New suggestion, I really think this ☝️ is it. The old one was pretty good, but I think this is way better 🔥 💯

lusty garnet
#

tbh i think our current megas kind of are going to be bis forever

#

i just think the specific range of what they're bis for is going to change over time

#

i do think one day they're gonna have a weird situation where its like

#

they're sort of capped on what they can do and to raise the ceiling they'll have to produce some way to upgrade megarares

#

so that space exists again

hard kite
#

but we can have 3 melee, 3 range, and like 3 magic bis mega's

graceful crest
#

if you ever introduce upgrades to the current 3 mega's it better not come from a raid

lusty garnet
#

i dont think it would be a raid upgrading other raid megarares though

graceful crest
#

yeah that would be awful

lusty garnet
#

it would probably be a random one off boss that like lets you dip your scythe into some kind of blood or posion or whatever and now its a little stronger

graceful crest
#

it would have to be a doom type level of content

#

or difficulty

proven minnow
#

I think the existing megarares have to be powercreeped eventually. I mean if the games running for say another 20 years we can't still have the same bis weapons.

graceful crest
#

not type of content in terms of waves

proven minnow
#

Although who knows if the game will last that long

graceful crest
lusty garnet
#

yeah thats why it would probably end up being some way of upgrading those items

graceful crest
#

but i hate moving the goal posts constantly saying "one day but not today"

lusty garnet
#

then they could make a new t85 slash weapon because we raised the ceiling on scythe by pushing it to t90 or whatever

#

but thats awhile away

graceful crest
#

the tiers aren't really relevant

lusty garnet
#

thats the kind of move you make when you actually just cant add anything extra anymore

#

without replacing tob as worthwhile content

#

because thats really what this is all about

#

the megarares support the whole ecosystem of how osrs players can find value and enjoy doing content for years and years

graceful crest
#

if the idea is to get to raids 6 one day it's going to be near impossible to make all 6 raids as relevant as each other

lusty garnet
#

so you cant replace them without making the game less

#

since you'd lose some of the most replayed content in the game in the process

graceful crest
#

but you also hamper the game by not moving it forward and limiting the ceiling

lusty garnet
#

yeah thats why they'll eventually make some kind of move to buff them to get reward space back for new content

#

without deleting the other stuff

#

its the same reason they figured out how to do masori and treads

#

raids are just like

#

the most important content in the game

#

at least as far as killing bosses

#

so they're gonna do crazy shit to keep them alive eventually

graceful crest
#

yeah but if raids 1-3 are always going to be BIS only then any new raid is always going to feel subpar in rewards or niche

lusty garnet
#

oh im sure the new raids are also going to be bis

#

thats why this is going to get interesting

#

because they're totally going to try and juggle them all

#

and its going to look crazier each time we add another raid

#

they're probably good until like raids 9

graceful crest
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if you release 3 new mega rares and now you have 6 mainhand weapons and all 6 are equally as strong that still diminishes each individual weapon

lusty garnet
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maybe the game will die before it turns into a big problem

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yeah but as long as they're all useful enough to hold down their own niche and it sees enough gameplay its fine

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we already run that type of thinking as it is between the current 3

graceful crest
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then they become too niche and dont have a lot of use cases

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and their price goes down significantly

lusty garnet
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yeah thats when you start hitting diminishing returns one day i dont think we're really there yet

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but there will be a point where there are actually too many

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hopefully they'll have decided on non weapon megarares before they go that far

graceful crest
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i honestly think we're already too far into niche scape

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ultimately there is no solution that doesnt' cause problems

lusty garnet
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i think they'll probably stop at 6 for weapon megarares personally

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i think it would be really hard to not kind of neglect one of them too much beyond that

graceful crest
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you either start the mega rare 2.0 cycle now or it never happens realistically

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another big issue i have is that they're not really innovative with the types of content that come into the game

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inferno, cox and tob massively raised the ceiling for what a pvm encounter is

lusty garnet
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the interesting thing to me is that they are trying to do more than 3

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like i think another 3 can fit but honestly

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i didn't really think they would even start down that path

graceful crest
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how about a mega raid or something new

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like post raids 4

lusty garnet
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i expected like a spec weapon or for them to finally just

graceful crest
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i dont even know what that looks like

lusty garnet
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put something real in the blessing slot

graceful crest
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that can still exist

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i think a blessing upgrade is for sure coming

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my predictions are:
Mega rare melee weapon
blessing
piety upgrade
mage amulet upgrade
3 armor pieces

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thats 7 rewards

lusty garnet
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i also thought of something random a long time ago

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if they want to one day

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they could add a way to unlock specs for your megarares

graceful crest
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that would devalue a whole list of spec weapons unfortunately

lusty garnet
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yeah but just imagine some idiotic spec for the scythe where you're just like

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using bladestorm from wow or some other nonsense

graceful crest
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sounds like eoc lol

lusty garnet
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it would be hilarious

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they should put something like that in a league

graceful crest
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true

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in terms of innovation i know mod arcane loves roguelikes and pathof exile and wants to introduce some rogue like mode

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so imagine a raid where it's a rogue like

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but you take your gear in ofcourse

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but bosses are random and so are power ups

lusty garnet
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thats sort of cox

graceful crest
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cox isnt a roguelike at all

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it just has random beginer rooms

lusty garnet
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if you dont do cms you get the rooms/bosses in random orders

graceful crest
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and you can choose your own layout

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yeah but you still choose your layout

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or scout

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and this encounter could have power up options with the debuffs

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not just pure debuffs like colosseum