New Server Rules Discussion

[zenith hedge]

Rules Update!

This is the thread to discuss our brand new server rules, as posted about in #discord-news

Today we're launching a completely overhauled set of server rules! This comes off the back of the feedback we've gathered from you, discussions we've had across the server, and reflecting on our own experiences as Discord moderators.

**Please make sure to read and familiarise yourself with the new rules, here: #rules **

It may look complex, but what we've aimed for is to make them as clear and transparent as possible, as well as making our moderation approach transparent too. It's important to us that you know what to expect at each step of the process, whether that's dealing with minor instances in the server, or processing bans.

As part of this overhaul, our Discord moderators have a refreshed handbook with updated moderation guidelines, and our House of Appeals server has had a complete refresh to better reflect how we want our ban process to feel.

There are multiple new elements to get your head around, so please do take some time to read it all.

Please note I finish for the day at<t:1751301010:t> and while our mod team can likely answer a lot of questions, I have taken it on as my own responsibility, so anything asked after this time may not get a reply until I'm back in on Tuesday.

Looking forward to hearing what you think!

[deep wadi]

First

[fair moth]

Thank you!

[little canopy]

3

lol

[wise oxide]

Afufufu

[silk prism]

5th

[zenith hedge]

😅

[deep wadi]

I never break rules im a good boy

[brittle gate]

Thank you for the update!

[silk prism]

Jeez that's so much to read. Can't you just say ''Don't be mean''

[stiff loom]

Baiting and spamming the same messages daily are finally against the rules

Thank the Lord

[silk prism]

This includes just posts right?

And no like emojis

?

[fair moth]

I just read them

[zenith hedge]

Not so much big changes, just more clarity. But I guess one of the big changes is around bans. Any bans will now be 90-days or permanent, and all bans can request a review/clarification once before that 90-day time point

[stiff loom]

I assume it's encapsulating things like 5x a day for a week saying "when monkey room fix"

And not just an emoji being used in a response

[silk prism]

Okay that's good

[fair moth]

Honestly rlly well formatted yeah though i'm more interested how mods will be (more about their approach with things)

Im sure thats in the survey way lot more than actual rules

[zenith hedge]

In general messages, but spamming of emojis when excessive will fall under the same category. But it would be when it's clearly spam, you won't get caught out from simply responding with emojis don't worry

[fair moth]

The rules r great tho i dont think i saw those rules written till today lmao

[silk prism]

Oki that's good to know! 🙂

[jovial lotus]

I'll give them a read at work while I'm cleaning

[zenith hedge]

Glad you like the format! Hopefully the write up kinda covers the moderation approach too 🙂 We're not here to police, but we're here to keep the server safe and inclusive. I like to liken it to being a park ranger rather than a police officer haha

[fair moth]

Yeah i can see that sentiment

[proper vault]

Why is it “extreme levels of discrimination” written in the rules which to me implies some actions or statements are tolerable with respect to discrimination

[fair moth]

I was also interested w the house of appeals and im glad thats addressed too lol

[silk prism]

one that is clearly meant to be harmful

[stiff loom]

Those are the things that are instant bans

Ones that are less extreme would probably be a warn/mute, if I had to guess

[silk prism]

What i thought

[zenith hedge]

Because we should only be giving bans as a last resort, and for immediate bans the action should only be extreme. Outside of that we'd like to still approach with warnings and guidance before having to take the step of a ban. This is to help prevent any false or OTT bans. It by no means means we'll be just letting hate go.

[silk prism]

This is a good reply

[scenic lava]

why is talk about private servers a rulebreak? i havent played for ~ 9 months but back then JAGEX THEMSELFES talked about introducing private servers. what am i missing?

[fair moth]

Where are the rules in the channel list? I swear i cant find the channel even when i show all channels

[stiff loom]

Different private servers. Those were Jagex official - and now cancelled
RSPS are unofficial and have always been against TOS

[lethal hollow]

#rules

can you see that?

[mellow rapids]

...Jagex "private servers" (i assume you mean zanaris) wouldnt be rulebreaking? They are official servers by the company?

[fair moth]

Yeah i can see it but i can't find it on the channel list

[scenic lava]

oh the thing is cancelled? rip?

[lethal hollow]

it is listed in information category

[scenic lava]

i dont see it in there either tbh

[stiff loom]

Project Zanaris was "private servers" but it's owned by Jagex
Discussion about those would likely still be fine

[ornate dew]

I had a situation recently here where i tried to discuss a serious topic but a few just kept giving troll responses that didnt contribute and felt like they were trying to bait me, i blocked them but would this fall under trolling? I think it can be really annoying sometimes when person A comes with a serious thing and person B just trolls or make meme replies

[lethal hollow]

are your channels also showing to all?

[zenith hedge]

Because private servers are against RuneScape rules, and it's not on our moderators to judge when you engaged with them. Discussing them used to result in an immediate ban, we've moved away from that now and onto warnings, but honestly game TOS breaking activities shouldn't be being discussed in an official server for the game.

Zanaris was a different case, and conversation around Zanaris wouldn't be actioned

[lethal hollow]

hmm okay

[fair moth]

Think i wrote abt this in survey too

[scenic lava]

that was it. weird.

[zenith hedge]

Have you ticked show all channels in your server settings? Because it absolutely should be there

[muted veldt]

Mod Blossom are this the discord server rules or the runescape rules?

What u mean with any bans will now be 90days ir oermanented and all bans can request a review/clarification once before that 90 day time point?

Where can we do this request??

[zenith hedge]

Discord server rules only

[midnight willow]

I, too, have all channels selected and can't see it in the channel list. Clicking on the link in the chat does allow me to see the channel and its contents however

[fair moth]

Ah yeah i see tgat

That*

[zenith hedge]

None of this applies to in-game bans or actions

[scenic lava]

just discord things lol

[fair moth]

Though is there a way not to have that server thing ticked

[muted veldt]

Okay thank you

[fair moth]

Cus wow im seeing waaay too many channels

[stiff loom]

Does this mean there'll be slightly less leniency on certain individuals who come in every June just to hate on LGBT stuff? Since it seems specifically to be a problem every June and completely derails several channels when shit heads stir stuff up constantly, and this last year it seemed like the handling of it was very lax

[fair moth]

Should be default to have it shown without the tick on show all channels

[lethal hollow]

@fair moth was that the issue?

[fair moth]

Yeah

[lethal hollow]

oooo kk :p

[fair moth]

What i mean is it shouldnt be hidden under channels that are also usually hidden

[midnight willow]

Yeah, that fixed it for me too. Discord pls

[meager willow]

It's a default channel, but onboarding can be a little wonky

[fair moth]

Understandable

But at least its brought up

[zenith hedge]

Hopefully yes, but it's important to remember we only have so many mods who are working voluntarily across different timezones, so things do get missed. I'm sure you can understand too that it's a difficult situation to moderate. But yes our goal is to have more consistency so that should help in future.

[fair moth]

[stiff loom]

Awesome, glad to hear it 🙂

[fair moth]

Satisfied overall tho personally im cool w the mods

[fringe crescent]

Using 🫃 as reaction is instant ban now?

[muted veldt]

Can we apply somewhere to become discord mod? I am from the NL/Turkey

[zenith hedge]

No that wouldn't be an instant ban

[fair moth]

Wheres that written at hahaha

[zenith hedge]

We select users based on what we see of them in the server. As a team we identify users we think particularly go above and beyond and uphold our rules and guide and help others. Basically right now there is no application process I'm afraid.

[verbal patrol]

yeah channel was showing for me at first and now its gone

[fair moth]

Either way im glad the survey helped w the community

[hollow wadi]

No AI is very based. Wish it was 0 tolerance on hate speech though.

[feral fern]

Good work on the rules team!

[real depot]

kan vi tala svenska?

[shrewd plaza]

English only not being a hard rule is an L

"extreme levels of discrimination and hate speech"???
just bad wording

[fallen igloo]

In regards to requesting personal information what is the stance on it if someone let's say has a nick that's like a name and you ask them? Or if it's someone you know well enough to ask something of that kind? Would it all still fall under rule breaking

[hollow wadi]

The discord will allow a little discrimination and hate speech, as a treat

[noble radish]

hehe 😳

[barren juniper]

Thats not what that means

[fallen igloo]

Nice timing I low-key wanted to name you as an example cuz eve

[real depot]

Who counts as a political figure? do people become irelevant enough if they are political officials on small enough levels? long enough ago? Far away enough countries?

[barren juniper]

It means as stated above everyone should be given the chance to be warned because a ban is last minute scenario unless in extreme circumstances

[fair moth]

Those are points for instant bans

[noble radish]

i think this is a balance of common sense and just decency, there is a point where history is no longer political and the drop off is typically anything that doesnt incite immediate debate about current political topics

[remote mist]

@zenith hedge semantics issue but it should probably be stated that UK laws are what are being used as the standard, because for example, some plants are legal in some countries and states, but not in UK

[tacit temple]

IMO the language around the hate speech / discrimination should be improved to make it more immediately clear when reading that hate speech / discrimination is not tolerated, and that the response is on a sliding scale depending on the offense

just because on first reading it could be interpreted that some level of hate speech / discrimination isn't actioned

[fringe crescent]

Killing chickens in lumbridge

[real depot]

Are we allowed winston churchil profile pictues? josef stalin profile pictures? alan turing profile pictures?

[noble radish]

murder is a stretch but animal cruelty and child endangerment i can agree with

[hollow wadi]

Ty, that's how it read to me as well. Thanks for articulating it.

[remote mist]

Focused more on "illegal"

Not the examples

[noble radish]

yeah thats fair

[minor sigil]

"Include political figures or content in your Discord profile, or in a way that suggests advertising or promoting a specific political view."

Kinda crazy, moderating free expression in their profile? thats wild.

[tacit temple]

(and i mention only because people trying to find a level of hate speech that they can "get away with" is a persistent issue in this server)

[remote mist]

It isn't quantified as to which laws are being used as the standard

[brave bone]

Aren't like half the games quests about murder or animal cruelty lol

[remote mist]

It isn't illegal to kill in a game

[noble radish]

they also arent real

[zenith hedge]

Sorry also fielding chat around the mobile survey discussion

reading back through now

[noble radish]

dw

we paitent wit it

[feral fern]

Only thing I could see as a possible uproar is anyone being punished by a moderator and them arguing in one of the chats on that action.

While there is a rule saying things are to be discussed via mod mail. From past experience telling them that escalates the situation more.

I would consider having that rule also include a part where if a user continues to debate or argue about the mod choice outside mod mail that they be punished in some way

[fallen igloo]

Ty for the survey

[real depot]

Does this mean i can have that one picture of winston churchill that looks like an interwar mobster?

[minor sigil]

guess not? thats the problem with these rules. it depends what the mod thinks, if they lean one way or another depends what you can have

[barren juniper]

Warning system should circumvent this if moderated correctly

[minor sigil]

its the same problem with "hate speech" its highly dependent on who perceives it

[noble radish]

i think the issue is any political figure incites any form of political debate and regardless if its marred in historical discussion some idiot will always plod along and give hes views on the current state of affairs, its not that "every political figure is banned" its that the very existance of them just promotes the topic of political discussion its hard to find this fine line

[tacit temple]

I'm not saying there's anything deficient with the rules, just the wording of the rules

[minor sigil]

yeah but the rule says you cant have it in your discord profile, not bring it up in chat

[real depot]

Assuming for a moment we lived in a world where winston churchill was not considered a universaly beloved war hero, it was a picture used both in support of him and in opposition of him, devoid of political context it also goes hard

[shrewd plaza]

agreed. it's poorly worded

[barren juniper]

How else would you word it?

[minor sigil]

agreed 🔥

[zenith hedge]

We do have 0 tolerance on hate speech, it's not super helpful to discuss it like you have here. We don't tolerate discrimination or hate speech, but it's always going to be a tricky line to moderate and lots of grey areas. I wish it could be really simple but it's not, so this is why we've had to list it out like this in the rules.

[shrewd plaza]

"No discrimination or hate speech"
instead of "No extreme levels of discrimation and hate speech"

[noble radish]

imagine trying to balance the ego of 100k+ middle aged gamers

im good

[remote mist]

Liking something because it's red and not blue is a form of discrimination and by that wording warrants a ban

It's not specific enough

[zenith hedge]

I also don't see how it would be fair to immediately ban someone who comes in and English isn't their first language and they use a non-English language. People should always be given the benefit of the doubt and asked to stick to English, and we will also point them to servers for other languages where we can.

[barren juniper]

I think that's fair

[shrewd plaza]

understandable. now what about the other part

[barren juniper]

I wouldnt want to be banned for Spanish

[gaunt harbor]

i am reading the entire thread and when i'm done i will have so much to say you just won't believe it

[noble radish]

i already dont

[shrewd plaza]

just get rid of "extreme levels"

[zenith hedge]

Kind of everyone who has been in politics, because we need to be unbiased, and the fairest rule is to just not have any. We're a game server, and while I know we have general chats and politics are heavy in our lives, we don't really need to be posting about political figures here

[remote mist]

This does not fix the wording issue

[zenith hedge]

I believe I addressed it in my earlier comment to Broboat but if it wasn't fully clear let me know

[gaunt harbor]

okay i finished, and here's my input: hi mod blossom

[hollow wadi]

As long as it's actually 0 tolerance, even if the rules are wonkily worded I don't care. Slurs commonly used in the discord when I'd interacted here in the past. Kind of turned me off the discord in general. But still unparalleled place to get update information so I'm still here.

[gaunt harbor]

i hope you're having a nice day

[feral fern]

If this helps navigating hate speech, generally I see if it's directed at someone or not first. If not, is it possible it applies to anyone in the server. The language used and frequency also helps to make a better choice. If it's derogatory or frequently mentioned in negative connotation then I consider it actionable.

[brave bone]

Isn't that kind of vague? How do you interpret involved in politics?

[shrewd plaza]

My issue is with the wording and inclusion of the words "extreme levels of"
I know it's not the intention, but it sounds like a little bit is okay.

[remote mist]

Mods do a pretty good job of removing slurs, however there are still many instances of baiters who know not to use the slurs but stick around to insert divisive messages to cause issues in chat

[gaunt harbor]

It's not really that vague. You kind of know it when you see it. No one's getting bent out of shape if you mention Franz Ferdinand, but talk about a current president or premier or congressperson, and, you know

[real depot]

The logical extreme of this is that you cant post pictures of caesar the roman emperor, he was a political figure. or dr seuss, he was a political cartoonist

[zenith hedge]

I'll take another look at it but it is something I spent a lot of time on. I think we need to remember that bans are a last resort, and some actions only require a warning using the strike system to begin with.

[gaunt harbor]

Just avoid stuff that's contentious

ez pz

[remote mist]

Again, removing those words would allow "discrimination" to mean things like preferential based choices, which is beyond the scope of the rule

Simply removing that isn't specific enough

[gaunt harbor]

I think "extreme" should be removed because it does imply that a little discrimination is okay.

[remote mist]

Because it is, it's contextual

It needs to be clarified as to which types are not OK

[gaunt harbor]

It makes it sound like, okay, a little bit of prejudice is okay, maybe a few off-color remarks, maybe a little trolling, but don't go too far

Which I don't think is great

[remote mist]

Blanket removal does not fix the issue you've identified

[shrewd plaza]

Everyone knows what is meant by discrimination there.
if it makes you happy then maybe "no discrimination based on race, gender, sex, sexuality, nationality, religion, etc"

[remote mist]

Yes that's exactly what I am suggesting

[zenith hedge]

Just want to stress here that it isn't down to what one moderator thinks. All moderation decisions are made as a team. We discuss at length what should and shouldn't be acted on. You are always also welcome to open a modmail if you feel something was incorrect and we will look again at it as a team.

[remote mist]

"everyone knows" never would hold up

[shrewd plaza]

unfortunate

[fringe crescent]

If you say you will only raid with people who have bis gear, that's discrimination ay?

[remote mist]

Correct

[gaunt harbor]

Instead of erring on making the rules sound like you punish extreme acts, just put

Discrimination or hate speech, offensive language directed at another user or staff member, or persistent harassment.
Then you leave for yourselves very clearly to decide what you consider bad enough to ban for, instead of using "extreme"

[remote mist]

The literal interpretation is important

[fringe crescent]

So ban for that? XD

[gaunt harbor]

You'll do the same thing either way, but I think this wording is better for people who will be reading the rules

[noble radish]

me looking for the tiniest loopholes just so i have something to complain about

[remote mist]

By that wording, yes lol

[gaunt harbor]

That is my two cents

[noble radish]

https://tenor.com/4nsR.gif

[zenith hedge]

This feels a little OTT, I think it's honestly clear what discrimination covers

[feral fern]

also mod mail has been very fast getting back to me which is nice!

[fair moth]

Eh i see what Acid is saying

And it does make the wording way more concise

[shrewd plaza]

anyone pretending to not know what is meant by discrimination in that sentence is just being dense

[remote mist]

If you don't want issues in the future with the semantics, now is the time to refine your wording

You're leaving gray areas

[brave bone]

Except that it doesn't.

[remote mist]

There's nothing wrong with being concise

[fair moth]

I can argue we dont need rules since rules are basically common sense

[fallen igloo]

Also while at it what about convos related to piracy? What about pservers of other games? How's all that handled

[fringe crescent]

There are discrimination stuff that are literally ok, like to only want to have their own country people in a clan.

[fair moth]

😂

[noble radish]

ban all dog whistle users 🗣️

[shrewd plaza]

fr

[remote mist]

If only if only

[zenith hedge]

It's to differentiate between an immediate ban and a warning, that's all. None of it is ok, but we will lean towards warnings where we can. But persistent activity that breaks the same rule will still then lead to a ban.

[gaunt harbor]

For me, it's not about gray areas, it's about how I feel when I read "extreme discrimination or hate speech," which makes me feel like mods will only act if it's way over the top

That is probably not the case, or I hope it's not

[tacit temple]

thanks, FWIW i think the rules in their entirety read completely fine, my only concern came from I guess that you need to read several sections to understand the full context that hate speech is actioned on a sliding scale which could be confusing on first reading, and that there may be instead some concise way to express the full thought at the beginning before getting into the breakdown of actions. Just my personal reading anyway

[gaunt harbor]

But that's how I would feel reading it, and I don't think I'm alone in that

Easy enough to get rid of that issue by simply changing the language imo

[remote mist]

This is also a concern with it in its current state yes

[olive cape]

Extreme = perma ban on sight

Normal = follow strike system

[remote mist]

Agree with this 100%

[olive cape]

It's not that complicated

[pearl wigeon]

I too have an issue with the wording on hate speech, and having seen the "grey areas" that are being allowed to exist and how the trolls/phobes skirt around the rules in general, the Mod North travesty amongst other issues as of late, it seems to indicate that some levels of hate speech will be overlooked alongwith any dogwhistliing

[shrewd plaza]

discrimination and hate speech should simply be ban on sight regardless

[noble radish]

the very issue with dogwhistles is they are designed to skirt the rules of most online spaces

[remote mist]

Oddly enough this statement is discriminatory

[pearl wigeon]

Yes, having a pride logo and then not moderating discrimination is an oxymoron

[fringe crescent]

Hate speech yes, discrimination is too various

[remote mist]

If you see what I'm saying

[noble radish]

you cant really punish them without proactively pulling the trigger

[zenith hedge]

There will always be grey areas, and I feel like we're getting a little nitpicky with the wording now. We needed a way to differentiate between what results in an immediate ban with no warning, and a warning, this was the best way I could see fit.

[shrewd plaza]

discriminate this

[pearl wigeon]

Where does it state hate speech will merit at least a warning?

[remote mist]

Yes, nitpicky is my specialty

[olive cape]

I think it should also be clarified whether stuff like pride is a political issue or not because it has in-game stuff and is typically considered political and is also responsible for like half the time the chat goes completely off the wire

[remote mist]

Semantics are important

[zenith hedge]

Believe that's covered in the rules 🙂

[pearl wigeon]

These are rules of a massive server, it warrants nit picky

[real depot]

are tripple parenthises banned?

[remote mist]

It's not a negative nitpick, it's constructive criticism

[shrewd plaza]

it's not political btw

[tacit temple]

how is pride "typically considered political"??

[pearl wigeon]

I'm talking about the obvious ones from persistent members who clearly do so

[olive cape]

The fact that you think something shouldn't be political is not the same as it not being political

[remote mist]

#rules are like the laws for a server, and the way laws are worded irl are vital to determining court cases, so I see no difference in discord rules

[fallen igloo]

I'm stoopid then I'm not sure which one it is
I mainly asked cuz I wanted to know how pservers that are allowed/tolerated by the original Dev for a game that's not officially supported anymore are handled

[noble radish]

probably not, dog whistles are active in evolving and to ask any moderation staff to proactively keep up with them is akin to asking them to expose themselves to bigotry almost daily

you literally couldnt pay them enough to do this

[brave bone]

But that's something they literally signed up to do? If they don't want to moderate. Then don't.

[feral fern]

A list of topics that identify as common discrimination could be useful to help understand what could be perceived as extreme or not. With other topics being case by case, and still can result in the same punishment.

[real depot]

i knew about them when i was a teenager, i thought they were common knowledge

[noble radish]

well it reverts back to the point of dogwhistles, they are designed to be deniable in a sense, thats why they are so vague and speculative so you can say "oh no i didnt mean thtat haha"

[pearl wigeon]

That's just OSRS not other games

[remote mist]

The same in reverse, just because you think it is, doesn't make that the reality

[pearl wigeon]

That's what warnings are for, if it happens multiple times from one person then it becomes clear what they're doing

[zenith hedge]

okay, I'll go back and look at the wording on the extreme hate speech point, would be good to hear if there are thoughts on any other areas rather than rehashing the same point 🙂

[olive cape]

I never said I think it is either. The line isn't clear to me as to why some things are allowed or not

[noble radish]

i could agree with this sentiment

[fallen igloo]

Yeah that's just about rsps I'm asking about piracy in general

Also the bit about dead games... Krafton or whatever let's a tera pserver after the game shut down stay up do I wondered if that'd count cuz I like talkin about it

[remote mist]

I'll look again but that was a standout

[fallen igloo]

Unless I'm being blind again

[fringe crescent]

So RS3 breaking rules stuff is ok?

[barren juniper]

I feel like you should start with saying something along the lines of we have a 0 tolerance policy for discrimination and hate speech and this hasn't changed. We believe in fair judgement and second chances. This rule will be moderated according to a staff members judgement, and thus the reason the warning system is in place to correct this behavior. However in circumstances of extreme discrimination or hate speech, you will be banned. or whatever. Work around that warning system if thats what you wanna do.

[fringe crescent]

Just not OSRS?

[noble radish]

what

[zenith hedge]

I'm honestly not sure on this then haha

[noble radish]

dude if u got nothing to contribute just

zip it

[real depot]

What else could tripple parenthesis they even mean?

[zenith hedge]

Obviously no 😂

[pearl wigeon]

It's literally just about OSRS so according to the rules you can talk piracy on other things just fine

[olive cape]

Piracy would surely fall under illegal categories regardless of osrs related

[noble radish]

afaik it was an old command used to embed links into older versions of vbulletin boards

[fallen igloo]

Just yeah a tad bit of it flies around and sometimes I'm told it's not allowed to talk about piracy in general just and often times its ignored then I want to know what should be said or not ig lol and then tera is the weird thing where it's unofficial but allowed ig

[noble radish]

it could be an oldhead making a funny oldhead referance for all we know

[remote mist]

Honestly other than the mentioned one, and the part I mentioned about UK laws being used for what is considered "illegal" it looks good to me

[fallen igloo]

True but an insta ban off the rip for it might be a lil excessive in comparison

[fringe crescent]

Illegal where? It is country based.

[fallen igloo]

Yeah the UK law part is good too

[real depot]

Huh, neat, i still dont think someone who marches in complaining about gay people is using it for that though

[olive cape]

Use common sense

[noble radish]

you definatly are not wrong

the problem is proving that

[olive cape]

This isn't the kind of server to talk about piracy in

[fringe crescent]

Says who?

[remote mist]

The only reason I mention this is because Canadians have a plant that isn't legal in England and people can't talk about it even though for them, it's legal

[pearl wigeon]

I love Johnny Depp though

[fallen igloo]

Yeah but people go ham on it so

[remote mist]

So the distinction as to which laws matters

[noble radish]

thats johnny deep bro

[fallen igloo]

It's just a safe clarification in general ig

[noble radish]

the general safe bet is if its illegal in the UK chances are they dont want it here

🤷‍♀️

[zenith hedge]

So I considered putting UK but I wasn't sure it needed to be that specific, but we can consider putting it back in, or at least looking at the wording for clarity

[pearl wigeon]

Loads of people argue over the UK bit so yes

[real depot]

Is the glorification of alcohol banned in here now? tobacco?

[fair moth]

That kinda plant talk is something that shouldnt be discussed

[noble radish]

honestly it would help clarify yeah

[fair moth]

I think lol

[fallen igloo]

It'd be ideal just to avoid ifs and buts

[noble radish]

ive been arguing the fact that runescape doesnt abide by the bill of rights for nearly a decade now

because thatd be fucking stupid

[remote mist]

It's an example of something that's legal in one place and not in another, and sheds light on the issue of legality based on geolocation

[fallen igloo]

Else I can go I'm greek what laws omegalule and that's not good for anyone

[fair moth]

Doesnt matter if legal or not i just think it shouldnt belong in a community chat

[fringe crescent]

Rules should be very clear and not interpreted through "common sense"

[tacit temple]

IMO 99% of the stuff that's being brought up can be solved by saying something like "for all these grey areas, moderator discretion" and then if you don't like the action you can modmail

[noble radish]

yeah sadly not all of us have the capacity to use our brains

despite having them

[remote mist]

It's already in there

[fallen igloo]

I mean they did with the second warning no?

Ya

[remote mist]

But that doesn't fix the issues

It just moves them to Modmail

[tacit temple]

ah right sorry missed that, then yeah it's already solved

[remote mist]

It's not

[tacit temple]

these are problems solved by humans with brains

[fair moth]

I mean just the fact that its "arbitrary" means itll just spark unnecessary arguments

[fringe crescent]

There is a reason why there are markings on bleaches n sort to not drink them.

[noble radish]

its so if a child drinks it they can hold it in a court of law as evidence

[tacit temple]

the solution to the argument is that it's their discord server

[noble radish]

not because they care

[pearl wigeon]

I thought the whole point of this was to remove moderator discretion and add consistency

[remote mist]

Too much ambiguity for consistency rn

[fair moth]

[tacit temple]

I might be missing that in the post, I don't see that anywhere

[remote mist]

It's nearly there tho

[fair moth]

Like i said earlier, im way more interested in seeing how the mod actions have changed

[fringe crescent]

Still there are less and more intelligent people playing OSRS and rules should be clearly understandable to whole community.

(no discrimination)

[fair moth]

Yea i agree w some of the wording being more ambiguous though

[zenith hedge]

OK help me out here, I need a list of what exactly I need to go back and look at:

• look at the wording around hate speech and "extreme"
• Specify UK laws
• Add into Should Nots line about discrimination that will result in a warning

What else?

[fallen igloo]

Also while not fully directly rules related @zenith hedge I think there need to be chat moderators for the EU working ours. From pretty much every mess I've seen that has happened during those hours it could very well take an hour+ for it to be addressed

Ofc volunteers and everything but there are huge blind spots for people to just go absolute apenuts

[zenith hedge]

There is always going to be some level of ambiguity because I can't write out a like 20 page manifesto giving the minute details of each point 😦

[noble radish]

just make jagrian a mod tbh

[remote mist]

No opinion on the rest of it semantics wise, any other issue I'd have with it would be personal lol

[fallen igloo]

I am not supposed to be able to actually

[fair moth]

Thats okay its more like the wording is confusing

But yeah those bulletpoints are good so far

[fallen igloo]

Either way during eu working around people can just barge in and spam filth for even 2 hours straight... There's a big scary blind spot there

[fair moth]

Prolly unhiding the rules channel to show without showing all channels should be added there

[zenith hedge]

We try, it's not as easy as just getting them though 😦

[remote mist]

That's a discord issue not this server specifically

[zenith hedge]

It SHOULD be, but we only have so much level of control over Discord 😦

[fair moth]

Ya could it be adjusted by tweaking some settings

Idk

[fallen igloo]

Definitely I just needed to let you know... There were many cases where people rule broke hard for hours on end cuz the time frame just has absolutely 0 coverage

[zenith hedge]

We've tried, trust me

[remote mist]

Your settings

[fallen igloo]

Even as far as posting some very... Bad gifs

[remote mist]

Not server

[zenith hedge]

Yeah I'm very aware of it

[fair moth]

😭

[remote mist]

It's a UI thing

[fallen igloo]

Not doubting you D: just really had to mention it this is v important

[remote mist]

It annoys me too lol

[fair moth]

Is that default for new joiners

That is so buns

[noble radish]

you tried so hard and got so far?

[fallen igloo]

Tbh lower tolerance rules are what I thrive on

[tacit temple]

imo that's all, it's v good

[fallen igloo]

Do that's a funny timing thing

[noble radish]

the council has deemed this thread a success

[remote mist]

As long as there's consistency I'm good with it

[hollow wadi]

Last note on this, earlier you mentioned that it's stated in the rules that hate speech or discrimination will result in a warning.

I do not actually see that in the rules. I only see it in the red section with the phrasing "extreme cases", it's not in the orange section stating warning will be issued.

I don't know if it was intended to be in both places? I wanted to make sure I reread the rules before I commented again. It could just be an oversight.

I understand the intention: immediate ban for egregious behavior, warning for something like calling someone an r-slur once. Right?

Sorry to go back to it, I know it's annoying getting all the questions and comments.

[fair moth]

Oh also, are there any stops to letting people react to voice access (eg. Discord account's age, levels, etc.)

I remember last time channels were filled up by newly made discord accs to hold a room for certain ppl

Was like a long while ago though

[zenith hedge]

OK actually you're rightm and this might be the root cause of the issue - not sure how it got missed off the Should Not list. I did A LOT of writing and reading at the time so I think I just thought I had it in that section too, thank you will add it to the list to get fixed asap.

But yep, the intention you described there is exactly what we're going for

[hollow wadi]

Okay, I think that'll probably clear things up for people

[feral fern]

good catch @hollow wadi

[pearl wigeon]

There's a good few people I could think of.

[fallen igloo]

@zenith hedge can I mention one more suggestion like the previous one rq or should it be a desperate thread? Well it's more so curiousity than a suggestion ig

[zenith hedge]

If it's relating to the new rules, here's the best place 🙂

[fallen igloo]

ig it's way more on enforcement so nvm I'll mby make a suggestion if I ever can get myself to bother to turn on the punctuation part of my brain

[brittle gate]

Overall I think everything looks good

[brittle gate]

Also just my 2 cents after rereading , would you / the team be open to making it bannable for glorifying / promoting self harm?
Not sure from a community standpoint that that should be something that constitutes a minimum of 1 hour timeout. To me this sounds more of a serious offense.

Perhaps 🤔 add at this bottom this aswell. (Take from another server.)

🧠 Use the "3 Second Rule" before posting: Ask yourself “Is this helpful, kind, or constructive?" If not, reconsider posting it.

🙋‍♂️ Reach out to mods early: If you’re unsure if something is okay, contact staff before doing it proactive communication helps prevent issues.

[zenith hedge]

Not immediately bannable no. I believe users should receive warnings first for this. If something is extreme and graphic then it would fall into the must nots rule, but for example someone saying "shut up and kys", for me a first instance it'd be a warning.

[brittle gate]

Ok fair yes 👍🏽

I was thinking of a more direct and threatening statement from someone but ok that is definitely more clear and sounds fair .

Thank you 🙏🏽

[haughty oyster]

Reform 😭

[verbal patrol]

Thank you for restricting AI posts; it seems the subreddit hasn't caught on yet.
This is a hint

[grand oyster]

Hai

[amber cypress]

I think the no AI should be expanded to include AI suggestions/text posts as well, instead of just images. Its not beneficial to the server when users just spam AI slop, when it is very clearly not thought out or anything

[olive cape]

you didnt like the osumemtens bow that buffs lightbearer?

[amber cypress]

Not particularly

[real depot]

Discourage AI profile pictures

[amber cypress]

Eh, thats harder to police, and they already are banning political pfps, which I think is plenty

[upbeat crater]

No sir, we need ai, we dont otherwise have any other means of communicating with paul776 effectively we need all the computational power we can get

[fair moth]

@zenith hedge

[verbal patrol]

ranked vcs could also be nice

[zenith hedge]

I'm not sure this is a restriction we can put on with the way we have voice access set up now I'm afraid.

[zenith hedge]

Appreciate the feedback on this, we're working on some wording that makes it a little clearer, but it's also unrealistic to expect our team of volunteer mods to track down and correctly identify every AI post. For suggestion posts it would fall under the clarification bullet point of if it's deemed disruptive, spammy or not in a way that correctly communicates the intended discussion point, then it may get removed. In an ideal world we wouldn't see people communicating via AI posts, but we also have to be realistic with our capeabilities. And right now our priority is on protecting the creative spaces in our server, like irl-art for example.

[zenith hedge]

We won't be acting on AI profile pictures or banners unless it breaches one of our other rules.

[brittle gate]

I think it’s great we are trying to protect the art / creative space for those who do use that channel.

I also don’t think we can expect our mods here to police every aspect of the community. This definitely is a good addition. New set of rules definitely helps with the clarity and break down.

The one question I had , I remember seeing something about multiple accounts on the server . Are we doing anything about ban-evasion as well as just having multiple accounts in the server? I may have missed this but don’t see anything.( I know it’s hard to track, just curious)

[haughty oyster]

That's a wild take

[remote mist]

@zenith hedge so what do we do when there are clear instances of the new rules being broken (instant ban rule), mods being notified, and the message being deleted while the person remains chatting and causing issues in the chat? What recourse do we have in these situations to get more eyes on the situation? Because I've tried Modmail in the past but with all of the changes, I was just curious about what to do

[crisp timber]

If a life is in danger, hang up and call your local emergency services

[zenith hedge]

So I'd encourage moving away from the idea of "what recourse do we have" and trying to police our moderators. I understand that right now there is a lack of trust towards the team, and this new work is in the hopes to repair some of this. If you see a "must not" rule has been broken and feel it hasn't been acted on, open a ModMail and include specifics of the incident and which rule it breaks. I want to encourage allowing the team time to act, we're spread across timezones and the team are doing this in their own time, so we aren't always as quick to act as might be seen as ideal. We also take bans very seriously, so discussions and decisions may be happening behind the scenes that take some time. However in most cases if we believe the user to have broken a must-not they will be put in a time out if there's any deliberation needed, so you shouldn't still see them chatting.

TLDR is that our moderation team act to their best abilities following their guidelines. Things take time and human error does also happen. Please bear with the team but do flag to modmail if you're not seeing a result you'd expect.

[remote mist]

I can't post the link to the infringing comment anymore as it was deleted, yet the chatter is still causing issues, I'll do my next best thing and copy the link to the comment where I @ the chat mods and refer them to the deleted comment it replied to

[crisp timber]

I agree with Blossom @remote mist, they try their best and it is just Discord, always remember that :)

Uh, ok, sorry

[zenith hedge]

Appreciate that Acid, just any details you can give help, even like a general time period and the name of the user, because mods can then check logs and things and still find what the issue was

[remote mist]

I sent in the info I had, thanks for clarifying what I should do, I figured that's what I should do but I wanted to ask

[zenith hedge]

Also please just let people chat and contribute in here as they want

[haughty oyster]

I understand the the mods have a google doc with any slight infraction any user has done, I believe this is used by mods to bank 'rule breaks' so they can support a ban/timeout for a much weaker offense should they choose to later on

I'd like transparency with this doc, and will the doc be wiped now that there's a new rule system in place?

[zenith hedge]

I'm not really sure where you've got this idea as there is nothing in place like this

[haughty oyster]

There absolutely is

[zenith hedge]

I can categorically tell you there is no google doc with any slight infraction noted down or info on users

we keep no information outside of the discord server itself

[pallid hill]

I hope not…

[haughty oyster]

I've heard from multiple trustworthy sources that there is

[forest heron]

There's not. That would take an insane amount of upkeep, and we are volunteers

[pallid hill]

How would you guys be able to keep up with infractions over all the years we’ve been around in the community contributing to messages around the chatrooms

[crisp timber]

We really got OScord conspiracy theories before GTA VI

[remote mist]

Have also heard this, although not specifically a Google doc, but I did hear talk of a naughty list

Obviously cannot confirm

[pallid hill]

This is equivalent to the Mountain mystery theories on Grand Theft Auto V

It’s huge

[zenith hedge]

I'm going to ask you to please not risk creating panic with this line of thinking. There's no google doc, or any form of note taking done outside of the server. We are able to pull up previous modmails, reports and actions via bot functionality to track historical actions taken. There isn't a "naughty list".

[brittle gate]

Think we can take Mod Blossoms word for it as an admin.

[remote mist]

It both makes sense that tabs would be kept on troublemakers, and also that it'd be too cumbersome to do so

Especially when you have a community this size, it's not feasible

Plus all the ppl who ban evade

Yeesh

[crisp timber]

Anyway, I think the rules look good, good work team :)

not sure what happened with the UK laws stuff but can obviously get tetchy around some things legal in the US and not here etc

(Here being the UK lol)

[upbeat crater]

That’d really be the only feasible way to do it anyway to have it compiled

Lets not get into conspiracy theories though for the integrity of the game

[pallid hill]

Lmfao

Big ups liquid richard

[zenith hedge]

We updated the rules following the feedback yesterday including the wording around UK law and adding in the point about hate that had been missed off the should nots, we're also adding some clarification to the AI point 🙂

I really appreciate all the feedback from you guys and helping me to really get these into the best spot they can be

[remote mist]

Honestly appreciate the opportunity to be a part of the process

[haughty oyster]

So, when users are banned/timed out, and message modmail to see what's up, how is it that mods can often come back with quite a few reasons spanning months? I seriously doubt they're trawling through user message history off of the back of a modmail (and it's not like you can search the mod logs, as usually these messages haven't been deleted), and honestly I think a question needs to be raised as to whether they should be going through message history to justify a timeout/ban, and given that it does happen, why does it not happen consistently?

If there's no document with all of these things written down, anywhere, at all, how is going back through a user's message history to try to find evidence to justify a punishment anything more than a witch hunt?

[upbeat crater]

this man spittin🔥

[fair moth]

dang that's a bummer. i think it's kind of needed usually community servers are restricted some way in the vc section through verification/account age/etc.

[versed walrus]

I can attest that there is a list of some sort somewhere. I've had a timeout where past messages were brought up and they were not deleted so no mod.logs. you don't have time a/or are volunteers but you went through my post history to find specific things I said? And then piled them together to increase a ban time?

[stiff loom]

It's really not hard to go find prior evidence without keeping a Google doc of evidence. My clan uses a ban list and a kick log, it's a pretty simple task if someone is being bad on Discord to search if anyone has mentioned them being a problem.

[versed walrus]

How big is your clan tho?

My guess is not 50k members

[remote mist]

If messages are not deleted it takes half a second to search someone's message history for keywords and phrases known to cause issues. It's something we do in Facebook groups I moderate to check if someone is having a bad day, or is regularly causing issues within the group. (biggest group I mod is ~130k members)

It's even easier to search discord for messages on pc client compared to Facebook

[versed walrus]

I find it pretty hard to believe that the same people whose go to response to anything is "we volunteer and don't put in that much effort" are doing any of that

[remote mist]

But the people reporting the issues may

I can't speak for how things are done here, but user reports are very helpful in moderating groups at scale

I try to check the new posts I see in my groups, but even still with like 8 mods and 3 admins things do slip through

[rain badge]

Not exactly sure how improved support is planned to work, but a way to directly reach out to jmods in special circumstances would be an extremely much appreciated option. I was falsely banned back in January and my appeal was denied. I know the go-to thought is that I was definitely botting, but I wasn't-- and getting over that initial hurdle of convincing people puts the entire rest of the discussion on hold. If there is clearly something wrong with the bot detection system that it is flagging accounts, then it would be advantageous to be able to provide info to the anticheat team to have it fixed and to prevent other legit players from going through the same thing I have. It's been six months of submitting support tickets (which are automatically closed silently, btw), submitting emails to the tipoff mailbox, and trying to reach jmods on Twitter and other socials just for complete silence. It's not a good feeling to have been playing this game for my entire life and to be treated like I don't matter as much as large content creators. Hours of my life and progress on a game that I love have just been taken away and at the moment there is absolutely nothing I can do about it except scream into the void. Thanks for reading my spiel.

[remote mist]

That is game support, not server support and goes beyond the scope of this channel, as it's for discussing discord server rule changes

It's essentially like saying "give us a place to appeal our subreddit bans" when it's a completely separate platform