#Have shadow roll off Verzik's mage level

141 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

obtuse laurel
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With all the new Yama and Delve rewards shadow will now be 10% better than scythe on P2 verzik. This has always been a point of contention in the TOB community, and the solution is incredibly simple. Shadow acts differently for Verzik than literally every monster in the game sans Ice Demon, it rolls it's hit off Verzik's base defense and not her Mage level. If this was adjusted so shadow acted the same at Verzik as 99.999% of every other monster it would be a complete non issue. Have shadow roll off verzik's mage level.

remote granite
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Why is magic being better than scythe bad in this one circumstance bad exactly?

naive current
obtuse laurel
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Shadow p2 negates the actual mechanics of P2. Also it's 10% today and that only increases exponentially with new mage items due to shadow's scaling

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There is a precedent for raid items to excel in the raid they are dropped in and shadow has been slowly becoming the ubiquitous item. At this point shadow is better than tbow at Cox

potent widget
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Its already a really bad thing how the wilderness has speciel rules compared to the rest of the game, lets not start adding more special rules. Rather start reducing the amount of special rules

obtuse laurel
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this suggestion is literally just asking them to make shadow treat verzik like every other npc in the game

potent widget
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By adding a special a new one?

obtuse laurel
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Did you read my post

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Shadow rolls off mage level for every npc in the game

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except verzik and ice demon

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so get rid of those 2 special circumstances

remote granite
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Don't get me wrong, shadow completely outperforms all other types of magic and i think its vastly too mandatory, but changing this mechanic would impact all types of magic not just shadow

obtuse laurel
remote granite
eager atlasBOT
obtuse laurel
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Then change it for other styles of mage. I don't see how ice barrage's effectiveness on verzik is relevant in any way

remote granite
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No it means the premise of your thread misunderstood what was happening. All magic rolls off her base defence level. Your issue is with shadow being too powerful yes but this is not something shadow only "uniquely" has. Every magic weapon does this on this fight.

obtuse laurel
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But it literally only matters for shadow

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No one in the history of the game has ever used a sang on p2....

remote granite
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I don't care if you think it only matters for shadow, the way it's designed is for every weapon. Not just shadow.

obtuse laurel
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Then change it for every mage weapon

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Because its irrelevent

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Its not a feature of the fight

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I'm 95% confident the only reason it does this is because they reused ice demon code for the cabbages since ice demon shoots out snowballs and this got carried over

half panther
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I think they made mage accuracy calc off defense because of P1 verzik, and just left it like that for P2 and P3.

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That's in addition to dawnbringer being 100% accurate so mage defense didn't actually matter for P1 but Jagex just did both for some reason.

mortal turtle
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regardless of why i think people would prefer that scythe be bis here not shadow

mortal turtle
mortal turtle
potent widget
mortal turtle
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verzik is one of like 2 mobs in the game whose defense calculation for mage works differently than everything else

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if you change verzik to calculate mage damage normally, shadow would not be as good

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this is in fact why it took so long for people to realize shadow is dps good at p2 - we did not know it had a different calculation

obtuse laurel
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It’s making shadow not work because it doesn’t work for anything else in the game except ice demon

mortal turtle
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to be clear the calc is for all mage weps not just shadow so this would really be changing it for all mage weps. none o f the other ones r remotely viable here

remote granite
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The issue you have is
1). Shadow is outperforming scythe on this fight.

The solution you recommend is
2). Eliminate all magic from being used on this fight.

Those are not equivalent exactly.

mortal turtle
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No other magic is being used on this fight.

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It is all garbage, and shadow would be too if the calc is normal

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Show ToB KC

obtuse laurel
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A dragon scimmy with blood moon is way better dps than a sang in max mage

remote granite
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oh can't link dps here because automod, nice

obtuse laurel
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Your statement “these are not equivalent” is stupid and pedantic

remote granite
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Sang is kinda decent, not as good as the ultrarares but definitely better than D-cimi in blood moon.

image.png
obtuse laurel
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They are functionally equivalent

mortal turtle
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💀

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so sang beats scim in rags

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im not even sure that calc is right tbh

obtuse laurel
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Ya I doubt it is

remote granite
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i cant link it

mortal turtle
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its basically the same in torva ig but like

image.png
obtuse laurel
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I’m sorry for all 0 players who were sanging p2

mortal turtle
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its not like youre bringing full ancestral with ward for sang p2

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torva d scim is unironically less stupid than sanging p2

remote granite
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is that scim in torva, lmao

obtuse laurel
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It’s more realistic than bringing full mage and sang into tob

remote granite
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sang p2 would actually be far more viable post update with the new gloves

mortal turtle
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anyone who sangs p2 is straight to the ignore list

remote granite
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+8% accuracy or something, pretty significant

mortal turtle
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i have seen people bring a lot of stupid inefficient shit

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but never seen the sang p2

obtuse laurel
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You’re just being pedantic at this point. Changing it for all mage functionally only effects shadow

mortal turtle
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people dont really want to see mage at this boss anyhow

remote granite
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Maybe they'll add an elemental weakness to

mortal turtle
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b/c it skips the bosses mechanics

obtuse laurel
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Lmfaoooooo

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Ya man fire surge Verzik

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They’ll for sure do that

mortal turtle
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yea gonna brin gthe harm

obtuse laurel
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“Maybe they’ll add elemental weakness”

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I’m actually cracking up

remote granite
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when she's flying make her weak to air

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thanks jagex

mortal turtle
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flying?

obtuse laurel
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I’m in tears

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Make her weak to dragonbane

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She flys

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The Huey wand becomes BIS

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surely jagex would want that

mortal turtle
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i jus twant to know if this person who is very opinionated on mage being viable on p2 verzik has fought a verzik

obtuse laurel
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Ya he did night at the theater (he paid for a carry)

mortal turtle
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cuz i notice a trend that like a very significant amount of ppl who are against stuff like this r in zero mutual servers other than this one

obtuse laurel
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We can’t eliminate future air surge Verzik metas

mortal turtle
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bhut like this sani guy is in 5 mutuals

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part of the problem is also that jagex is handing out max hits to shadow like candy

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like mage gets 4% mage str from this update but melee gets 1 str that doesnt even give a max hit in soul or torva

obtuse laurel
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That’s because 1% magic damage gives shadow like 3 max hits

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Meanwhile with scythe we need 4 years 9 pieces of content and the sacrifice of our firstborn child to get 3 max hits

remote granite
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I mean shadow is broken in general

mortal turtle
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the problem is once shadow passes scythe theres no coming back

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because its trending upward much faster

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once again asking if you have killed a verzik

obtuse laurel
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Shadow is broken correct. A good way to make sure it doesn’t pass scythe in tob is to have magic roll off maybe level at Verzik.

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Single, easy solution. Shadow probably will require further balancing as we get more mage upgrades but this will solve the issue for now since it will take another 2 years for jagex to rebalance shadow

still basin
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This is way too niche of a solution. They should just nerf the shadow like it should've been before it was even released

fresh totem
limpid condor
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They need to rebalance mage and fix the shadow. Your issue isn't with p2 versik - would be a bandaid fix to the core issue.

weary steppe
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No freaking way anybody brings shadow and full mage switch just for p2 verzik. Bring shadow switch to tob and you’ll get flamed like crazy

viral swan
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Scythe is getting soul armor. Bringing full mage and heart or forgotten brew is not practical in most cases, and you forgot about the rest of the raid. I don't care if shadow becomes better dps on paper because it's not practical.

limpid condor
versed rampart
viral swan
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Shadow has its own downsides too. It's fine lol, I think the shadow hate is too much

limpid condor
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Oh that and pures

versed rampart
viral swan
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Nah I'd rather them just poll it. It's a rare high endgame drop.

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Far from easy to get

versed rampart
odd crow
blazing saffron
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Shadows got 1 boss sense release of TOA lol

stuck rune
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no

odd crow
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they spent 4 years abandoning it as well

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ill say this is more than fair

dusk chasm
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Considering shadowq requires a 9 way to be better than the scythe and it's harder to use than the drag mech I think it's actually quite balanced.

near ginkgo
# dusk chasm Considering shadowq requires a 9 way to be better than the scythe and it's harde...

Few things here:

Drag still exists for shadow bc you can (and should) hit from max range to get deeper procs into reds. Crabs are also solved with shadow (credit to Duckwax) and shadow only requires 7 way to be technically better to camp. 7 way when using it on what would be a 6t scythe is notably better than camping one or the other.

The biggest drawback to shadow currently is it generally, outside of duos or speedruns, isn’t worth bringing because of what you need to forfeit to make it good. With treads being a 0-inventory magic dmg slot, gloves getting additional damage and accuracy (and double roll that you can pre-load during reds, otherwise get after a miss), it becomes a different story.

Personally, I don’t think 10% is that big of an issue because it’s been 10% in the past, though I’d definitely prefer it to be smaller or worse. It’s more so the other mentioned items that makes things a bit off putting.

Then you have random things like people who see others using it so they use it too, but the forfeits they give up/how they use it is in a way that’s less beneficial or not beneficial at all (trolling) and makes the raiding experience potentially worse for the people in their party. Those would be my main talk points, not necessarily the dps side

dusk chasm
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Bro if ur max distancing with shadow ur tanking 50 zaps

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And fucking up any team mates who are scything

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Or are you saying for only the auto b4 reds ?

near ginkgo
dusk chasm
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I did some shadow p2s but was mostly before I had scythe as I went dry asf on scythe it was fun but not worth the risk in a money raid and I don't know anyone to speed run tob so I didn't do use it too much

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Thats actually kinda sick

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Makes skipping more reliable

near ginkgo
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Also there’s a crab popping pattern that you follow that handles all spawns, similar to Boak

dusk chasm
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Not worth the 5 plus invo slots prob still but cool tech

near ginkgo
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It’s worth in current rec attempts all scales, but generally for money raids it’s not

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There’s also a really good case to take at least 2 max shadows in trios assuming all poll questions pass, since you won’t be playing for the 1down reds anyways - you’ll be playing for the 20sec p1 and then as much dps as possible p2

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Which I’m impartial on personally, but there are a lot of people that don’t like it at all

dusk chasm
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I feel like most people don't like the idea of shadow out dpsing scythe at tob but also never tried it or even been in a raid where someone did it. Because it is actually quite balanced in my opinion it does definitely have the potential to troll and rag your teammates though assuming your using it on a money tob

near ginkgo
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Yeah imo the 10% increased dps isn’t necessarily the problem because it’s been there before (it’s actually like 12% if all passes but w/e). it’s the idea that with treads, it’s now easier to make usable bc it’s one less slot into the raid and one less switch at verz, so there’s a bit more justification to it

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Could go either way and I’d be fine tho personally. But I definitely understand why ppl would prefer it not to be functionally bis, not just on paper bis

unborn pecan
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I don't understand how someone can say this is a "niche solution"
It's making Verzik the same as every other monster in the game.

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That's just fixing some weird old code

icy vine
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I'll use the same argument as those above - Why does it keeping Shadow relevant at ToB matter when "not many people do it anyway"?

There's no meta use of magic prior to Shadow that would be hurt by this change either.

mortal turtle
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It would change some high end speeds so not nothing

still basin
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Oh I misread the post, you mean it currently rolls off regular defense and not mage level like everything else does? That sounds like a bug and should be fixed

mortal turtle
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Yes