#New Delve Boss Rewards - Varlamore TFD

1 messages · Page 10 of 1

last needle
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1/3.45 each scroll catdespair

young schooner
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Supply system and aesthetics of TOA (salts >>), skill ceiling of tob, high skill floor solo of cox, 1 min puzzles max

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Is roughly where id start

brisk elm
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pretty syure scrolls were rarer at the start but people complained and now they are way too common

last needle
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ngl salts are giga busted

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they are like overloads on steroids

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no hp drain, longer duration, higher statline

nocturne narwhal
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Tob is cool cuz you don’t really get one shot, you mostly get whittled down by compounding mistakes, besides glorious screwups P1/P2

brisk elm
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tbh i really dont like the "oh heres an op consumable you can only use in this raid" thing going on

last needle
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don't instantly depreciate, gives you stam

young schooner
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And it's kind of hard to appease solo players and group players from same content so I guess team aspect of tob and solo players suffer

autumn thistle
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At the very least, they said they’re going to make it more like tob where it’s a boss rush raid that doesn’t necessarily scale to solo

nocturne narwhal
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No solo scale? Lfg

last needle
reef zinc
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i dont really think thats positive honestly

young schooner
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Unless it's a near 0 def raid (or few accuracy issues) then sure

reef zinc
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i think it shows that they might not really be paying full attention

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for example

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the boss rush thing sounds good if you're currently doing a shitty puzzle or boss room

brisk elm
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overloads yea are fine. they honestly arent that much better than reg game either

reef zinc
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but at the same time some of them are actually pretty good/not bad

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like crabs or tekton

autumn thistle
brisk elm
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i think it was them just testing the waters for maingame ovls at that time

reef zinc
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so instead of learning why some of their puzzles are ass

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they're just saying no puzzles

autumn thistle
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2/3 of the raids are already basically solo-locked outside of mega scales

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Why go 3/4

young schooner
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I much prefer solo content but I agree

last needle
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tob scaling down to min 3person was a good call

reef zinc
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thats another thing

young schooner
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It's a raid/mmo

reef zinc
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solo is not inherently bad its actually a super valuable option and a lot of people play that way

young schooner
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Cox/TOA you can solo all you want

reef zinc
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they just haven't learned that its about the reward tuning

vocal nacelle
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overloads/salts are definitely not fine concerndoggo
Not only are they braindead as fuck because they're a 3-in-1, but 99% of players never use it properly.

reef zinc
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for example

last needle
vocal nacelle
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how many people do u know actively brew before the stat refresh

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I guarantee you it's basically limited to hlc and their mentees

reef zinc
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if you grind toa with 4 people vs 1 person the 4 person group takes longer to put together and will also have various reasons to take breaks dropping efficiency

autumn thistle
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If raid 4 is as soloable or slightly more soloable than tob, I think that’ll be a good spot to be in

reef zinc
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where a solo person only has to worry about themselves

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thus

vocal nacelle
brisk elm
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as long as the raid is still possible with mechanics at solo its fine

reef zinc
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the solo player should get less purples per person

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than the group does

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to make up for the burden of making a group

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and they haven't put it together yet

young schooner
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But I'm very much hoping Yama is like that

last needle
reef zinc
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its just a fact

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the solo option should be viable but noticably less efficient

autumn thistle
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Like solo tob uwu

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You can achieve that by not having the content scale to solo

young schooner
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All roads lead to Tob, got it

vocal nacelle
brisk elm
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mechanics should still work in a solo though

reef zinc
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nah solo tob is the example of how not to do it

autumn thistle
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That’s just the quickest lever

reef zinc
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like

autumn thistle
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They took a similar approach with giant boss

reef zinc
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jagex shouldn't be saying "fuck the solo players"

autumn thistle
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Not scaling down to solo

vocal nacelle
autumn thistle
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So it’s less efficient

reef zinc
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they should just be tuning it so that grouping has a place and is valuable

autumn thistle
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And doing the same with Yama

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I think that’s the best direction personally

vocal nacelle
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I hate how toa fucking mitigates mechanics

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toa removes so many mechanics

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in a solo

reef zinc
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basically toa and tob did solo vs group wrong

vocal nacelle
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dd/split for warden, baba puzzle, baba rock throw

reef zinc
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and somehow chambers got pretty close to doing it right

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despite being the first attempt

vocal nacelle
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its dumb lol

ebon lava
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I mean

I don't mind it not being garbage to solo actually

vocal nacelle
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and then went back to make it slightly easier for solo

reef zinc
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i think its honestly because they got lucky

autumn thistle
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Solo doesn’t need to be as inaccessible as tob solos are (which are significantly easier these days). But it should be the option. Easiest way is to just not scale down to solo

vocal nacelle
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nope, definitely not luck

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notice how tob is consistently soloable now

reef zinc
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i dont think they intended for solo chambers to work as well as it does

vocal nacelle
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with 1-2 minor changes

reef zinc
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we just somehow got lucky enough to be able to develop it into what it is

vocal nacelle
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this is how it should be

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remove the solo pain points AFTER setting the team expectations

reef zinc
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i mean thats not ideal because

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what happens when we're not lucky (tob)

vocal nacelle
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what do u mean

last needle
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if you ever listen to kieren talk about solo cox on any of the podcasts he's been on, iirc they made it with the possibiltiy of solo in mind

vocal nacelle
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tob is lucky

autumn thistle
last needle
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but not knowing exactly how it would be done

reef zinc
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solo tob is not the ideal result

vocal nacelle
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it is...?

autumn thistle
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And to no surprise those are 3 of the best pieces of content to date

reef zinc
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its technically possible but something that is mechanically unavailable for just about everyone who does tob

last needle
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olm my beloved

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except when he jads

vocal nacelle
autumn thistle
reef zinc
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yeah thats not really how you want your solo mode to come out

autumn thistle
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They gave verzik poison immunity, so poison doesn’t trigger the shield phase. But purple crab deals poison type damage

vocal nacelle
reef zinc
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you'd ideally intentionally get in there and come away with a result like cox where the solo player still handles the mechanics but its not like

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reserved for a handful of the best players to do the content

vocal nacelle
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it's much easier to design down than up

brisk elm
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yea purp crab mechanic is basically like a skiller using recoils for quest bosses lol

autumn thistle
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Cox wasn’t intended to be solod either

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Players just adapted

reef zinc
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yeah thats what i mean

vocal nacelle
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like them fixing cox teleport special to not launch you a 65

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is good

reef zinc
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they just lucked into solo cox coming out as solid as it did

autumn thistle
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Trying to choreograph the content as a dev only leads to more limited gameplay potential

vocal nacelle
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I wouldn't call it luck tbh

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when u force someone to do something a certain way

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or get fucked

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that's toa

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u need to give room for mechanics and strats to be figured out

last needle
reef zinc
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yeah im just saying they're just as likely to end up with a mostly non viable solo mode leaving it to chance

autumn thistle
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So if you intentionally go out of your way to make content solo accessible, you’re probably influencing the flow of the fight so much that you limit its potential

reef zinc
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ideally they would make the group raid

vocal nacelle
reef zinc
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then do another pass and say how can we have solo work when its not working

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or just leave it alone if it does work like cox

autumn thistle
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Make group raid - scale it to a min of 3 players. Let players figure out how to duo or solo

vocal nacelle
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it's like bran - the fight is so good because the time save from having a duo is significant

autumn thistle
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That’s the winning formula imo

reef zinc
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but thats something jagex is really bad at ultimately

vocal nacelle
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and it was balanced with team in mind

reef zinc
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because they basically fire and forget their updates

nocturne narwhal
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I’m really hoping for a boss that’s like bloated turned up to the extreme, tick fix simulator

brisk elm
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letting players figure out how to solo is how solo tob is how it is tho

nocturne narwhal
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where identifying the tick and using weapons of different attack speeds matter

reef zinc
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yeah like solo tob could've been cool

nocturne narwhal
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Maybe a big hit at the end

reef zinc
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they could've easily seen how people tried to figure it out then smoothed it out in a way that it was more of like

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a thing most players could do if they wanted to try

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but they just disappeared for years instead

last needle
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solo tob is pretty cool rn ngl

brisk elm
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solo tob is cool as a presitigious thing not as a i wanna run tob solo all the time thing

reef zinc
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yeah its cool to see on youtube or try to figure out when you have nothing left

last needle
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the qol made it a lot better

reef zinc
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its pretty ass as far as just like regular content for people

brisk elm
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its kinda like blorva imo. very few people actually wanna do awakened levi after their first kc

reef zinc
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but yeah im basically just saying jagex should value their solo raid experiences

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clearly a lot of people like those

autumn thistle
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And then the oversight was caught, it got more and more popular, and then it was eventually made more accommodating

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There’s a difference between not scaling below 3 and intentionally trying to design something to be impossible to solo

reef zinc
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yeah the difference is cox and tob

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they also said cox wasn't intended for solo

brisk elm
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and should have to tick eat like all of sote either just to be doable solo

reef zinc
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you're not wrong though

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where cox wasnt intended to be solo

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they actually tried to make sure tob wasn't which is very different intentions wise

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like even now after the changes to make it a little less horrible

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its still not something people really do

brisk elm
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also i just think they are smarter in how players will do things now vs when they made cox. prolly didnt even think running head would be a thing back then

reef zinc
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no they did know about that

autumn thistle
reef zinc
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kieren actually talked about designing olm and realizing you could manipulate where the head was facing

autumn thistle
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Like it was very intentional the way they did it

reef zinc
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he didnt know exactly what would be done but he kinda realized there was opportunity

autumn thistle
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“They’ll figure out how to deal with this” - love it

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Because that actually allows for players to engage more

brisk elm
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theres a difference between figuring it weird way to do things and just tick eating 1 shot mechanics

reef zinc
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they also showed more care in cox for solo in general than people realize at first

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unlike in toa where mechanics dont happen or tob where mechanics just attempt to delete you for daring to be alone

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things like portals just work a little different

autumn thistle
brisk elm
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yea toa mechanics not working at all is just dumb

keen lily
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But double poop in a solo is insanely difficult

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Clearly

autumn thistle
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They said over and over again, even after release, that tob would not be soloable

reef zinc
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yeah i just dont really understand their angle with trying to stop that

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like

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its obvious now that we saw the results but lol

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they have a huge audience of people that will do solo content

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and will not show up to group content

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you'd think they would value that more than they did

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maybe they really didnt know back then

autumn thistle
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They wanted to force players to play in teams bc by that point, solo cox was already at the point of being the most popular scale

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But they learned that trying to purposefully lock people out of content isn’t great

reef zinc
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yeah maybe they thought those people would just do the team raids

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and then they didnt

brisk elm
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yea i like group content an all....i just dont like making groups for the content =p

autumn thistle
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Which is why they’ve over time made tob more accommodating for solo

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But still at least stick to its original design philosophy in that if you want to solo, it’s still really inconvenient

reef zinc
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i think it was honestly too little too late basically

brisk elm
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yea how long did it take to make red crabs not scale in a solo?

reef zinc
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like if i were designing my own raid i'd just make the raid for teams and check out how people tried to solo it

autumn thistle
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It’s pretty close to the same gp/hr as efficient 4s tho, even with the increased supply cost

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Which is crazy

reef zinc
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and if it wasnt going well i'd just fix shit for them until it was working

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goal would be that team raids are efficient but solo is like

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realistic for people

autumn thistle
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Bc there would be less ground to stand on from the player side making the request

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Part of the argument was “these things already scale to solo”

brisk elm
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pretty sure only reason they did it anyway was because of hm

reef zinc
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i mean i think they recognize where tob went wrong

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look at what they did to toa

brisk elm
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toa as a whole mechanics wise is way worse tho

reef zinc
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toa didnt go so well but you can see someone realizing that the raid should be more inviting to get people into it

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they just did too much

brisk elm
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toa relys way too much on chip damage. especially if your doing it "properly"

reef zinc
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and honestly as much as we "hate" toa

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its actually really good at its job and super successful in the general sense

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it just kinda failed the super high end players

brisk elm
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its good at its job of being accessible yea

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just akkha/baba hitting 20s through melee prayer when you do nothing wrong is dumb

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and defence/hp scaling at higher invos is too much

sweet comet
reef zinc
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i think they basically just tried to get too into multiple levels of difficulty

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i mean tob entry mode doesn't do anything but help someone learn how to do mechanics

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im talking about the people who just do solo content not people who cant play the game or needed help learning

brisk elm
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tob em is good minus the parts where they change the speed of attacks imo

sweet comet
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Yeah nylo boss is dumb

reef zinc
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i mean its not really tob is proof

sweet comet
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It lets you learn the mechanics before having to play with others

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It's incredibly easy to get into tov

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Tob

reef zinc
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you can see that most of the solo raiders who genuinely do harder content solo

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just didnt go to tob

sweet comet
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Yes because social anxiety issues whatever

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That's unfixable

reef zinc
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its not that they couldn't learn in entry mode or that they cant do content

sweet comet
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Group content isn't for them

reef zinc
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they just rejected being put in groups

brisk elm
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i mean imagine tob em but without the reduced stats or bandages. that what tob solo shouldve been

sweet comet
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That sounds awful

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No thank you

brisk elm
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and nylo dumb stuff

reef zinc
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like tbh

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just getting a 4 or 5 man tob clear

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its not even hard

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they just dont do it lol

sweet comet
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Imo if you don't want to interact with others you should just not do group content (which raids falls into)

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Never seen another game where the player base DEMANDS a solo version of raids

reef zinc
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idk i just think jagex releasing their biggest content and knowing those people exist is reason enough for them to look into it

brisk elm
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its not the interacting with people....its the tediousness of making a group then 20mins goes by and you have to say +1 for a while and what not

reef zinc
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i think that what they should have learned though

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is to just not make the group content worse in pursuit of it

sweet comet
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having a solo version makes it worse

reef zinc
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idk i'll never agree that the option existing makes it worse

sweet comet
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it results in toa tier boss design

brisk elm
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having it explicitly designed to avoid solo makes it worse imo

sweet comet
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there is 0 teamwork in toa

reef zinc
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not really

sweet comet
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and the few places with marginal amount of teamwork, in solo, you just skip the mechanic Pepega

reef zinc
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the developer is the one that made toa worse its not some inherent truth to making the raid work in multiple sizes

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like they didnt have to make mechanics just not happen in solo

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they chose to do that

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they* opted for deleting them instead of figuring out how and why it should work for a solo player

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basically mod lazy took over

sweet comet
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it should just kill the solo player

autumn thistle
sweet comet
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ya

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like cox is fine too

reef zinc
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i mean it depends on how you apply your intentions

sweet comet
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youll notice that solo cox and solo tob are both a lot more involved than the team raid

reef zinc
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like i keep using the example because it works i guess but olm portals

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they didnt make them bad for teams

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they changed how it worked when the team wasn't there

sweet comet
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the reddit andies that want solo raids want the solo version to be the same difficulty

reef zinc
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instead of just getting rid of it

autumn thistle
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That is for sure to handle what happens if you’re the last in the room but worked out either way

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Happy accident

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Minus the scaling, I think cox worked out best

reef zinc
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yeah and as long as they apply that logic to any changes they make to a raid so that solo works out

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they wouldn't be designing solo at the expense of another scale

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thats why i was saying i'd just make the raid for groups release it

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see what happens

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and then get to work on making solo make realistic sense for people

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they're just bad at that because they rarely circle back on content

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or if they do they take forever

brisk elm
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yea definetly seems like lately after 2-3 weeks they just leave the content for years even if theres unresolved issues still. even if it is minor

ebon lava
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They don't want to get trapped in the forestry part 75 loop

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but the answer there is to be responsive for a longer period, not to make a change that everyone hates or is insufficient and then slowly parcel things out over like a year of marginal shifts

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sometimes jagex is just too damn cautious

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when for new content they can absolutely be adaptable

brisk elm
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i get dont want to stay on a piece of content for ages...but needs to be more active in revisiting. and if some places may need a bit more than 3 weeks post launch

reef zinc
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ya i mean some stuff is just a real content drop honestly

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like a raid solo mode might as well look like when they release hard mode later on

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because if they wanted to do it right thats pretty much what its going to be

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see how it works then see whats wrong with it and likely need to make some pretty big changes unless you somehow get a cox

brisk elm
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colo is the one that springs to mind for recent content that just got left

and pretty sure arrax still has dead tiles

last needle
brisk elm
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oh dont worry...they said they would "revisit it soon" if people wanted it

reef zinc
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remember when they were going to make even more toa invocations and update it in the coming years

brisk elm
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lol

reef zinc
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and then they disappeared from the face of the earth after one big balancing patch

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tbh

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im surprised they dont just have a team for this now with the number of employees they have

brisk elm
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i just never trust them when they say they will come back to content anymore. osrs really needs a ninja team

reef zinc
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a lot of studios have the big team of devs everyone knows about

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and they're making new content and expansions and cool stuff

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and another team nobody knows anyone on that basically updates and maintains everything the other team failed at

autumn thistle
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Quiver still not working as polled or blogged is 10/10

brisk elm
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they need a team that looks at a piece of content 3/6mo later and see how its going

reef zinc
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lol thats sorta what happened to osrs but not in a good way right now

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all of the devs for the most part that people expect things from at jagex

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have been doing sailing

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there are some huge downsides to doing that two team thing though

brisk elm
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remember when they said with new skill they werent going to get trapped into it cause of previous investment?

reef zinc
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the major one being is that if you keep that going and the teams dont interact with each other enough

brisk elm
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forget the phrase =p

reef zinc
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one team learns to fix problems and why they happened

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and the other one just keeps making the same mistakes and not learning from it

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because they didnt fix it themselves

ebon lava
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I mean, sailing is coming out, so it's not like it's wasted dev time

but it's putting a huge strain on new content development that anyone who'd be free to deal with updating new stuff is busy elsewhere

which may be a management issue of setting everyone to work without maintaining anyone's flexibility

reef zinc
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i think part of the problem is that osrs gets new devs and they put them to work on more new content a lot of the time

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like instead of using the additional people to fix more stuff and maintain the game

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they just increase the rate of new things

brisk elm
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yea really need some devs that look at fixing/balancing old content

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and usually that content isnt even "old"

ebon lava
reef zinc
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yeah they've expanded to trying to do massive content releases

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like im fucking sick of varlamore and somehow part 3 isn't even out yet

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lmao

tight hawk
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idk how, varlamore is epic

brisk elm
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yea varla part 3 doesnt need to be boss+skilling+quests all at once

reef zinc
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i feel like the topic of varlamore has just been like

ebon lava
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I really enjoyed varlamore and think aldarin is the chillest place in the game, but it's undeniable that it's basically smothered all but one-off content updates elsewhere

reef zinc
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the only thing in this game for over a year

brisk elm
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honestly id say it makes it worse cause usually it means feedback for one thing overwhelms the rest

reef zinc
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it hasn't really been but somehow its just dominated the major updates for so long

brisk elm
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like trying to give feedback on hunterguild/mixology when colo/huey came out at the same time was just a wasted effort

ebon lava
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it's because they keep getting delayed and there's 3 months upcoming where the only content is yama at some point, and going back a bit it's only royal titans, inventory/bank qol, marginal qol elsewhere, and halfassed house cosmetics since like january

6 months with 2 bosses and scattered qol

reef zinc
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tbh

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i dont even know why they want to package the whole thing as one update

ebon lava
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go back even further and besides leagues it's 8 months with basically nothing but a quest backport since varlamore 2

reef zinc
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like they could've been doing part 3 in pieces

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and we'd probably have 2/3rds of it right now

brisk elm
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yea i get packaging p1 as a major update not part 2/3

tight hawk
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that makes literally no sense

reef zinc
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the quests the bosses the slayer cave and the other random activities and area its all going inside of

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really doesn't have to be a singular update

tight hawk
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why would they want to package the whole thing as one update
also splitting it up in to multiple updates feels like it takes over everything
also why is part 3 not just more parts instead

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like what

reef zinc
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i mean it is taking over everything

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we're just waiting longer to see it all at once

brisk elm
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odds are bosses have nothing to do with quest. no reason to release them together

reef zinc
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oh i see what you're saying

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so

tight hawk
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I think those odds are very small

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as in, it will 100% have to do with quest

reef zinc
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i think the total amount of varlamore content is way too much for me honestly

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but

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i dont know why they would do 3 big spaced out updates with large periods of time where there isn't much happening

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vs several smaller drops for the same total content

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in the same time period

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i'd rather it not be happening at all

tight hawk
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because then we just get people saying "why are we dropping the quest without the boss that was related"

reef zinc
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but it feels weird that its basically content season and content drought

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similar to other games

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where osrs typically hasn't done that

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that weekly update is a very osrs thing

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i cant really think of any other game to have ever done that

tight hawk
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i do agree that more frequent updates are the norm but also i dont really know why they would release things at different periods if related

reef zinc
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and what they're doing right now is way more similar to every other game

brisk elm
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i also miss with quests when they were basically touching up on all story lines at once instead of focusing on 1 or 2 story lines. several havent been touched since osrs came out

reef zinc
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i liked them trying to finish the mahjarrat story but

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im kind of annoyed at them spending so much time on it

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and still not finishing it and then shifting focus anyways

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kinda the worst of all worlds

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lmao

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idk we lost variety and still didn't get the finish

tight hawk
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tbh just sounds like this boils down to them being "held back" by polls

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IMO

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what you're describing has basically never existed in osrs during the era of "dont update the game, leave it as is"

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and now that its not that, the update schedule(s) are just a given

reef zinc
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playing back in the day was crazy compared to now

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like 04 to 07

brisk elm
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yea dont get me wrong love the mahjarrat/mort story lines but its all im seeing.

main reason it came to mind is picked up my old iron recently doing a bunch of quests and no update on dwarf, goblin, penguin story lines or anything.

reef zinc
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they were putting out massive amounts of everything

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and it was all over the place

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like if you actually go look

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04 to like 06ish

brisk elm
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also wish they would add new quests that werent just cause of a content update. like they did it with zeah/varla but nothing else

reef zinc
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basically built the entire game we have lmao

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they were absolutely pumping out content

vocal nacelle
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It's a formality at this point and unless it's that controversial (typically PVP), that's the only time it fails

#

They've polled quests VERY vaguely iirc

reef zinc
#

yeah like not finishing the mahjarrat questline

vocal nacelle
#

and it passes

#

We could have 19 quests in a year

reef zinc
#

that was them deciding they wanted to do something else

#

we didn't vote no or anything

vocal nacelle
#

"Would you like 19 quests associated with wrapping up open questlines?"

Yes
No
Skip

reef zinc
#

they just basically went on some mahjarrat bender then stopped

vocal nacelle
#

They could completely bypass polling quest-related rewards this way too

#

Polls are never the problem with content coming out slowly imo

brisk elm
#

im honestly sick of mahjaratt at this point tbh lol...cool af storyline but its overwhelming

vocal nacelle
reef zinc
#

yeah and they made you feel like that and quit at the finish line

tight hawk
vocal nacelle
#

We're basically indirectly mahjarrat lackeys

tight hawk
#

He's effectively complaining about being too much in the loop and it's all he ever sees or hears about.

vocal nacelle
#

how many god weapons did we give them indirectly where if we didn't do shit that they wouldn't have gotten them?

tight hawk
#

If we didn't poll, that wouldn't be the case.

vocal nacelle
#

Elder Horn? Staff of Armadyl

#

Jas Stone?

reef zinc
#

besides

ebon lava
#

I enjoy the mahjarrat a lot but doing DT2 and building up to WGS and then ditching the whole thing for years to fuck around exclusively in varlamore sucks

vocal nacelle
#

3/7 fucking god weapons we enabled mahjarrats to get br0

reef zinc
#

it doesn't even actually end

brisk elm
#

tbf staff of arma you had a choice

vocal nacelle
#

he still got that shit

reef zinc
#

mahjarrat just turns back into dragonkin so its not like they'd actually be extinguishing the story

#

they'd just be wrapping up this chapter

tight hawk
#

all this said, i agree, I'll be happy when we aren't doing varlamore things anymore (soon tm)

keen lily
vocal nacelle
#

I don't mind Varlamore, but Varlamore Part 2 was dogshit

keen lily
#

Like WGS we literally did nothing but help him

reef zinc
#

thats actually kind of the point

vocal nacelle
#

Huey, Moxi are pet hunter fodder

keen lily
#

At least DT2 there’s the deception and investigation angle

reef zinc
#

assuming they dont miss the story beats anyways

vocal nacelle
#

Colosseum was underwhelming rewards

autumn thistle
#

With kourend, it released with so much unused space which was a notable point of feedback, and it seems like they took that feedback to the extreme with varlamore by instead of progressively releasing updates, they wait until they can bundle and release in packages with what feels like nothing between

reef zinc
#

all of this leads up to us watching lucien catch a big ass whooping

#

finally

autumn thistle
#

Just need to find a middle ground

brisk elm
#

tbh i like moxi. just kind of a shame its a low level fight

autumn thistle
#

And did* for a week

keen lily
#

But like WGS in particular was a mediocre quest with contrived/forced plot elements, and used the same repeated and annoying/awful trope of do all the work so the bad guy gets the relic thing, like in SotN, DT2, etc.

reef zinc
#

since they're doing their own quest basically how it ended previously

vocal nacelle
#

and we're golden

reef zinc
#

is that we're about to take another L and the dragonkin fly in instead and basically dismember the dude and he fails finally

#

i imagine something similar will happen this time

#

just with more people getting killed by then

#

them*

#

so at least originally im pretty sure you're supposed to be getting annoyed at repeatedly losing and helping them on accident etc

#

and it leads up to you finally feeling happy about what happens

ebon lava
#

I want to believe they'll have the cojones to do something seriously different this time instead of repeating the same plot beats from the original RS2 quest

#

but I don't know if I actually do believe it

keen lily
#

It’s just kinda bad writing though because like even finding the Stone before Lucien, tf were we going to do with it

#

Clearly finding the Stone first didn’t help us stop Lucien from getting it and we just solved all the puzzles for him

ebon lava
#

I think the idea is that solving the mystery is fulfilling to the character and player, but it works in DT2 because the design of the areas and the lore is great while WGS it's a mediocre item puzzle in a boring grey cave

reef zinc
#

its just hard to change it too much because

#

everything leading up to it was written with intention

#

and they're also including the dragonkin already

#

with the flashbacks and stuff

ebon lava
#

idk I feel like they have to make the hard choice to stop caring what a bunch of now-fired devs wanted in 2010

reef zinc
#

so hopefully the ending is just more satisfying

ebon lava
#

and just bite the bullet

vocal nacelle
#

I hated WGS writing and choreography BSmiley

reef zinc
#

well thats because somehow

vocal nacelle
#

those deaths were so fucking poorly animated

reef zinc
#

the osrs version of wgs is actually worse than the original

vocal nacelle
keen lily
#

I get that there’s a lot of pre-set lore from RS2 but a lot of it was going in a bad direction

reef zinc
#

idk why but they actually cut content like

#

idk it was just a bad idea

brisk elm
#

yea i dunno if its nostalgia speaking but i remember wgs being a lot more epic

reef zinc
#

they just removed npc dialogue etc so what characters did made more sense and it had more character

#

so the osrs version was just like

#

weird lacking that stuff

vocal nacelle
#

Show me the magic that turned the wilderness into a lifeless dark zone

keen lily
#

I never did wgs in rs3 but I read lore about the quest on the RS3 wiki because I was curious and I just couldn’t help but be baffled by the quest existing and going in the direction it did

#

Not to mention TWW

#

This was years ago

reef zinc
#

but for w/e reason jagex has definitely stuck to your character being the unwitting pawn and idiot causing half of this to happen in the first place

keen lily
#

Which was good in Priest in Peril

reef zinc
#

so its likely the ending is different but the same

keen lily
#

But falls pretty flat when they try to use it on serious quests

reef zinc
#

if it were me i would want the ending to be you the character actually figure it out

#

and do something that isn't stupid

#

instead of you being the idiot again and then randomly dragons come kill lucien because you couldn't

brisk elm
#

honestly with recent quests one of my issues was with the most recent vamp quest.
the monologue he does at end is way too close of a copy to thanos lol

#

kinda took me out of it a bit

reef zinc
#

honestly though they're taking a weird direction change

#

some of the key differences so far are that your character is actually more important than it was

#

like you're getting weird flashbacks and weird chosen one type vibes instead of just being some dude messing up everywhere who is irrelevant

#

which is kinda interesting because people generally didnt like when that change happened in the other rs

ebon lava
#

I don't really mind it so long as it remains confined and feels like an earned continuation of things instead of an arbitrary induction into the justice league because god died and his alien friends are invading

reef zinc
#

ya games usually struggle with making you unrealistcally irrelevant or basically gods new best friend

ebon lava
#

I've said it before but the thing I truly resent about RS3's story is that it made the fantastic feel utterly mundane and humanized the gods down to your level

I don't hate chosen one storylines as such, I just feel like it needs to not come at the expense of the rest of the setting

and ideally that it's a result of things we've actually done instead of because guthix died and said "shit, anyone in a pinch" and then 10 years later we're punching zamorak in the face

reef zinc
#

yeah people go to the extreme and dont want gods or anything at all and realistically its better writing if they do appear and things happen and someone recognizes you're pretty important to a degree

brisk elm
#

yea gods should never really be fought imo. or if we do they should absolutely shit on us

reef zinc
#

without turning it into saradomin actually moving into your poh to have a chat

#

or something

frank dagger
#

just don't make them bickering petty children

#

idc if they humanize them as long as they don't end up the same way they acted in rs3, they were annoying a lot of the time

#

seren especially, and more so in the extinction quest

random turret
#

Gods should not appear imo, and I think the story will be better if they are only visible through their followers or creations.
The closest we should get to Zamorak should be whatever first hand accounts the other mahjarrat tell about him from before he rose to godhood.

Something like "Avatar of Zamorak" would be fair game imo. The fragment of Seren could perhaps be thought of as an avatar.

thorny birch
#

i hope they leave the gods alone and focus on zaros only

#

rs3 is a mess with its god story

quick jackal
north star
#

When this update comes out?

tight hawk
distant summit
#

Raids 4 1-100 scaling

lyric gyro
#

They removed the spade entirely? 💀

#

Now we're gonna get an enrage boss with only 3 uniques

stray panther
#

3 seems fine

lyric gyro
#

Idk, I would've liked to see one more

#

Nex has 5 uniques after all

#

Also 4 of them are bis

#

Tbh I liked the demonbane shield, it's OK for a boss to have one unique that's not a chase item

keen lily
#

Nex has way too many uniques imo

#

Also 6 at Nex

stray panther
#

4 at nex if you don't count all the torva as separate

sweet comet
#

All 3 uniques here are really strong

#

I think it's fine

reef zinc
#

yeah i mean idk how many times jagex has to mention it but

#

the nex and cox drop table sizes are a mistake they wont be repeating

#

lmao its actually crazy how many people point to nex and are like why dont they do this after they've said they won't ever

frank ravine
#

While i think 3 uniques is enough, i'd still like them to add some other original reward. Apart from armor and horn, Yama is also getting an upgrade to DC, secondary for a new potion and a new combination rune. Delve doesn't have any of that.

random turret
#

Gauntlets are unique enough, don't you think? Passives like that is a good way to have variety in gear beyond just boosted stats.

reef zinc
#

those are actually kind of not great to have

#

like

#

they can be interesting but you're then obligated to create more options for the same slot and mathematically make sure future upgrades are actually better

#

otherwise they just hang around and are bis kinda forever

frank ravine
#

I have no idea what it could be but was expecting them to come up with something

#

But I'm fine with how it is right now too 🙂

peak comet
#

I really hate the " we will fix it later"cop out. Nothing that ever gets pushed back ever gets revisited. Just off the top of my head: Dragon hunter wand never got the attachment to make it actually useful, imbued heart drop rate never got touched, end game/boss slayer, boss defences, venom immunity for noxious halberd, and repolling updates that failed by less than 5%. At a minimum there needs to be some kind of tracker so they cant just memory hole all these things

frank ravine
#

They don't have a great track record on tweaking existing content beyond the first 2 weeks after they add it

peak comet
#

yeah and honestly a lot of the content would never have passed polling if they werent telling people they were going to update it

autumn thistle
nocturne narwhal
#

Upgrade magic by making magic support spells better 🔥

runic haven
#

Like Venge others: bosses
buffing up bosses to mess with players

quick jackal
#

Venge will no longer proc on 15 or below damage

random turret
#

Venge other the boss and the the ruby bolt procs

frank ravine
#

Y'all remember the "group venge" from 2011 or something

#

From Livid Farm

nocturne narwhal
#

Yeah it would nuke a player casting barrage in a clan war, was sick

elder fulcrum
#

Hope when they finish the lunar questline they bring back group venge and group heal

keen lily
polar steppeBOT
near hollow
#

[[rsw:repair rune pouch]] [[rsw:vengeance group]] [[rsw:borrowed power]]

polar steppeBOT
near hollow
#

these 3 spells on the lunar spellbook would do a lot to make the lunar spellbook more relevant, borrowed power especially

#

we have all the other relevant livid farm spells in some other form

#

south falador and north ardougne teleport already exist with the explorers ring and ardy cloak, we have geomancy on the arceuus spellbook instead of remote farm, make leather is from the fremmy diary, trollheim farm teleport is rocky basalt

sweet comet
#

I don't understand borrowed power

#

Isn't it just more limited sbs

near hollow
#

it's more limited sbs without needing to cast sbs every time

#

set borrowed power to fire wave and you can attack with fire wave like normal on lunars

#

spellbook swap to standard, you can cast fire wave once before you have to swap again

vocal nacelle
#

it's stronger sbs in most cases imo since most of the time u sbs for 1 spell anyway MonkaChrist

near hollow
#

it's balanced out by being limited in the options for spells you can use with it

vocal nacelle
#

I see

#

knowing jagex people will ask for the classics like thralls/dc lmao

near hollow
#

these are the options in rs3

image.png
nocturne narwhal
#

That’s interesting enough, kinda kills the standard book outside of needing multiple elements

quick jackal
#

Normal spellbook is also kinda dead after midgame anyways

elder fulcrum
#

If group venge is limited to a 1 minute cool down time and borrowed power is limited to just these spells and only the standard spellbook it would keep within balance

#

Still need to be on standard for surge spells and teleblock then

daring granite
#

tbh maybe standards should just die

#

would it be terribly bad if lunars ends up being an objective upgrade

#

worth noting ancients has sbs on rs3 too

quick jackal
#

We had the same argument about prayers too

#

Would it really be so bad if the base prayer book died?

#

Inserts the slop of compromise no one was happy with

daring granite
#

the goblins were frog !

#

I want to say ruinous powers fell through because a) it punishes you in some factors which just isn't really fun (nor does it make the standard book at all relevant), and b) god alignments are a far cooler concept

quick jackal
#

"We don't want curses to replace normal prayers"

brisk elm
#

honestly never got why it couldnt replace and had to be a sidegrade

reef zinc
#

Devs

#

The extremely common random person feedback was essentially curses without a broken soulsplit

#

They just did absolutely everything to drive the conversation away from it and flopped

last needle
#

was curious about if there was more info on delve boss and apparently they have some concept art for it

#

it was on the wiki but i wasnt aware of it until just looking for it now

#

just wanted to post incase others didnt catch it either

near hollow
#

yeah i think this was revealed at runefest

last needle
#

I remember seeing the trailer for it but I never end up catching the concept art

#

Maybe I'm just super ie

sweet comet
#

dang its ugloy

distant summit
#

I forgot this channel existed lol

north star
#

Why don't they make something similar with the neck like they are with the boots?

#

Combining all 3 into one

runic haven
#

That would be insanely strong

#

All the boots are very low impact, the amulets are some of the higest power besides weapons

vocal nacelle
#

boots were 0 impact outside of prims until they added 1% to eternals

#

most locations u didn't bring anything but prims for the longest time

#

prayer was better option for the longest time DLaugh

distant summit
sweet comet
#

Doubt

distant summit
#

I’m 20 years well have 1 tribrid protect prayer, stat boost, wep, gear and just left click the monster till it dies

last needle
#

thankfully 202x scape will be out by then

stray kernel
#

Hope for the full Tribrid armor and salamander will be bis

north star
#

It would be very similar to the boots most likely

#

2% increased magic dmg almost as much as one piece ancestral

#

3 ranged strength the same as ava assembler max

#

Boots is already a massive boost

runic haven
north star
#

Neck would fall in the similar lines

runic haven
#

and thats without adding any buffs to this "new" amulet, like the boot has added a buff compared to old boots

north star
#

They could do something similar like they did with boots on amulet while reducing a bit of its dmg in return

#

It would balance out the power spike of the new items I guess

autumn thistle
#

Problem is with relevant max hit thresholds. If the bonuses on the individual necklaces aren’t substantial enough to separate them into the next relevant max hit (eg. 2-3 maxes due to tbow scaling, 2-3 scy maxes etc), then you’d always just opt for the Tribrid necklace because it’d be better

#

And if they release something like that, it’ll basically just be a fury 2.0 but with no healing properties from the blood shard

vocal nacelle
#

Not only do they tend to get more max hits per update

#

But they are significantly less impacted by DWH reliance

viral sluice
#

170m for both oath top/legs

#

plz dont make the same mistake u did for yama by making it so accessible to the point items are pretty much worthless and crash everything else with it

runic haven
#

Good old, if regular people can farm something, its going to destroy the economy

viral sluice
#

its kinda common sense if more ppl do smth the supply increases

runic haven
#

Indeed, but that is kinda how the game has to be designed then.
Either you make the content not available for the common people, and its good gp for botters and high end players
Or you give people the ability to farm it during the time they get off from their 2 jobs, 3 wives and 7 kids, which then makes the item not worth it for the high level players to grind

viral sluice
#

plenty of us have jobs and we can learn high level content just fine

#

im not asking for stuff on the level of awakened bosses

#

but if something is said to be end game, it should be reflected as such

#

otherwise it just completely destroys the economy

#

oathplate crashing doesnt just affect oathplate

#

torva is crashing with it

young schooner
#

eh you're just asking for really rare drop rates at that point

viral sluice
#

no because that doesnt have a huge impact

#

look at oathplate again...

#

even after the nerf its crashed back down to where it was

#

because there are just that many completions

young schooner
#

you can run CM masses w/o knowing any mechs but running olm head and get access to that whole drop table

#

150 toas drop shadow

viral sluice
#

toa is just as bad

#

fang crashed rapier

young schooner
#

yama harder than reg dt2 imo and people farm them easily

viral sluice
#

yh i agree

#

but that sohuldnt be the case if its advertised to be "end game"

#

if ur releasing "end game" content and it has 4m completions in just a few days, thats very worrying

#

because as nice as it would be to let everyone enjoy the content

young schooner
#

it probably is endgame if u can make argument vardorvis is early endgame

viral sluice
#

it just isnt healthy for the economy

#

end game as in skill level

young schooner
#

difference between endgame vs endgame aspirational challenges

viral sluice
#

end game i see stuff like inferno/coll/tob

#

but when u look at that

#

tob

#

u can learn it in 50m gear

#

but its classed as end game because of teh difficulty it poses

young schooner
#

yea I wouldnt put norm tob over like a 400 solo toa tbh

viral sluice
#

everyone is using min 100m+ setup at yama, does that make it more end game than tob

#

no

young schooner
#

kind of in the same boat

#

I just can't really think of endgame gear that is really gatekept by skill other than inferno/quiver/, could argue inq but reg nm is a thing lol

viral sluice
#

i think more stuff should be skill

#

so it encourages people to get better

#

i mean look at yama

#

everyone is just afking in mage

#

if they were forced to melee cuz mage sucked ass

#

the playerbase would not only get better but it would also keep prices healthy

#

tho i would say it needs mor than just melee anyway

#

more duo focused mechanics to test coordination

young schooner
#

just gotta wait and see how it shakes out when the hype dies down in a month

viral sluice
#

i mean yh definitely

young schooner
#

eventually there will be plenty of oathplate in the game

#

prices back to normal

viral sluice
#

but yama has other issues regardless

#

which releases on friday

#

guaranteed oathplate is just stupid

#

bots gonna be running into a gold mine

young schooner
#

risking 100m contract to earn 10m woohoo

viral sluice
#

it wont stay 100m

#

hmm nvm ig it can

#

shits like 1/3k

young schooner
#

if people are farming guaranteed oathplate contracts then oath just wont keep its value, so contracts could go down

#

doesnt need to be thousands of people either, 10s or a 100 is enough

viral sluice
#

ppl will die ofc

#

but bots wont die anywhere near as much

#

more worried abotu them

nocturne narwhal
#

Oathplate from contracts such a mistake, even if it’s all 4 awakened bosses in a row difficulty

autumn thistle
#

It doesn’t progress from mid game to end game

#

It’s early mid late and end game

#

Vard is comfortably late game, just above votkath which is also late game (both in large part because the quest requirement)

#

End game is inferno, Colo, tob(largely due to accessibility), PNM(still a meme tho lol), awakened bosses

#

But calling vard end game to use as a comparison would be like also calling vorkath end game when it’s just not. Vorkath has more mechanics, even

young schooner
#

If vard is late game and Yama a step above, it can be argued its early endgame then no

autumn thistle
#

No, because vork is also late game

#

And that doesn’t make vard end game

#

Yama is comfortably late game

young schooner
#

I’d say it’s inferno/colo from skill perspective, tob would be almost exclusively from the accessibility then which is kind of a myth, learners just don’t want to go with learners. But it’s in line with the other raids

autumn thistle
#

Tob is definitely a step up from toa and cox

#

Difficulty wise

#

Not speaking on the cap, speaking on the entry requirements

young schooner
#

Unfair to compare a 150 toa to a 4 man tent whip tob though

autumn thistle
#

300 toa is way easier than tob

young schooner
#

And also a solo norm cox , let alone solo CM

autumn thistle
#

And that’s Jagex’s criteria for “expert” or “hard mode”

autumn thistle
young schooner
#

Which is why I used 400

autumn thistle
#

You can’t just use arbitrary restrictions

#

400s are also easier wym

#

Also CM isn’t cox

#

And HMT isn’t tob

young schooner
#

The content is scaled down to trio max in tob, it can scale down to solo for the other raids

autumn thistle
#

Talking about different things here

#

Scaling down to solo doesn’t mean solo was the intended space for it

#

Players just better than devs

young schooner
# autumn thistle 400s are also easier wym

I disagree but that’s fine, it’s a little nitpicky but won’t make a fuss if tob is considered endgame or not. My main point was endgame gear isn’t locked to very hard content from skill perspective. That’s reserved for infernal cape and just recently quiver

autumn thistle
#

Difficulty placement is based on required skill to consistently clear + accessibility

#

IMO

#

Yama is accessibly and isn’t difficult to clear in a consistent and reasonably timely manner

#

But it has a fair bit of skill expression available

#

To help position it

young schooner
#

Tobs accessibility is moreso people with social anxiety and won’t pot with other learners, after a handful of kc, 4 tent whippers in void is pretty consistent

#

There is skill but I think it’s more of the team component at play

autumn thistle
#

Not being able to reasonably solo as a learner is part of that too

#

You can learn toa, Yama, etc solo and have no problem

young schooner
#

Yes team play

autumn thistle
#

Because it’s effectively the same

#

But yeah tldr Yama definitely not mid game content people say it is

#

But it’s also not befitting of end game. At least not in the intended space, being duo

#

Is my opinion ^

young schooner
#

It could be if contracts are duo

autumn thistle
#

I wish lol

sweet comet
#

I feel like contracts being solo is such a curve ball and they delayed mentioning it for too long

#

I do think regardless that jagex did a better job of not overcooking Yama compared to past releases

nocturne narwhal
#

When contracts were revealed to be solo only the immediate concern was how limited regular duos must be

#

If it was possible for the solo encounter to be enhanced for contracts, the duo couldn’t be that hard

#

And that’s mostly how things played out

sweet comet
#

Yeah pretty much it's a fundamental design flaw

#

The contracts should have been focused on duo teamwork

#

And maybe you simply just don't lose the contract if you fail or something.

autumn thistle
#

The current team makes good/fun fights, or at least has gotten better at it. They just haven’t figured out how to make content that isn’t easily grindable by mid level iron accounts with average mid level Ironman gear

nocturne narwhal
#

They also committed for some reason to contracts being for crazy things like pet and uniques

#

That’s also a major design flaw

autumn thistle
#

And that’s a problem 💀

sweet comet
#

With the contract rates, not losing the contract on failure is actually a real possibility anyway

nocturne narwhal
#

Because that’s how you end up with their whole “toxic environment” thing

sweet comet
#

Otherwise I can't see who is going to do them besides port khazard

autumn thistle
#

Contracts are lost on failure

sweet comet
#

At 70m an attempt

autumn thistle
#

Goblin said so

nocturne narwhal
#

If contracts were common, they could’ve been duo

sweet comet
#

Who is this content for then

#

Maybe some of them are only marginally harder idk

nocturne narwhal
#

We’ll have to see cuz it’s coming, but everything we were afraid of is playing out exactly as expected

#

So i have less faith every day

autumn thistle
#

There are a lot of really good players

#

I’d be surprised if they someone managed to make a fight that’s only reasonably for people like port or xzaxt to do cosistsntly

#

I legit don’t think they have it in them to do so

nocturne narwhal
#

And why would they

#

Like if even port has odds to fail an oathplate contract, what’re we doing

sweet comet
#

The issue is that unless someone makes a Yama contract sim the cost to learn an awakened style fight at 100m/attempt is unreasonable

nocturne narwhal
#

Yeah for sure, almost no one can justify that learning cost

autumn thistle
#

That’s true, yeah

sweet comet
#

You need to be good enough to figure it out within a few tries and then make back the bit of loss by making huge money off the contracts

nocturne narwhal
#

Also, if someone does want to risk it, doesn’t that mean the content is really enjoyable and fun?

#

What a waste of an encounter then

#

Just the most bizarre design decision, I really don’t know how it got past pitches

vocal nacelle
#

I dont think shards are necessary if the rates are common-ish

sweet comet
#

Shards make more sense if you like halve the rates of the pieces from where they are now, yeah

autumn thistle
#

The real issue with that isn’t even the learning costs, because the economy will correct that to some extent. Eg. Prices initially drop bc too hard. Increase as people figure it out.

The real issue is the people that figure it out first are incentivized to keep the solves private to take advantage of the market and/or boosting

sweet comet
#

That also prices out people who learn the content later

#

Like inevitably the price of an oathplate contract will go to the expected value of the oathplate drops

#

(which funnily enough probably means you lose money if you get a helmet lmao)

nocturne narwhal
#

Awkward that someone wouldn’t want to reveal the vod of first clear cuz they want 10 more

sweet comet
#

Yeah

nocturne narwhal
#

They aren’t unlocking contracts until Friday right?

#

I really think just not doing this makes sense but idk how you deal with people who bought them already

sweet comet
#

I assumed it would be the normal update day

nocturne narwhal
#

If contracts were supplies and such that’d be cool

#

Imagine them like 1/10 or even 1/5 and they’re a little added bonus to cash in once competent enough to send

vocal nacelle
nocturne narwhal
#

But whatever wasn’t the vision, hopefully I’m just wrong and it works, or we learn our lesson and never do this again and they make the next team content team focused

#

🤞 this debacle is saving raids 4

viral sluice
#

raids 4 is screwed lol

#

they clearly care more about accesssibilty over the games health

reef zinc
#

i mean the tradable shards really was the big thing they messed up

#

they tried so hard to make the mining activity worthwhile that they messed up the rates on uniques over it

#

it would be like if you could trade your rolls on the vestige tables at dt2 bosses instead of them being invisible

#

supply would skyrocket

viral sluice
#

wonder if theyll do anything

#

after that nerf its clear they dont exactly like how cheap oathplate was

#

and its even cheaper now lol

reef zinc
#

i think they just weren't very clear on what they were trying to accomplish with oathplate shards and tried to loop in too many ideas

#

the point generally for items like that is that a player who sits there long enough to really go dry eventually comes away with something and that's fine

#

but they also let their desire for the mining activity to be profitable and for people to get smaller worthwhile drops get in the way

#

and thats why its tradable and theres like 10 trillion oathplate items instantly

#

when really it should be untradable and just something for people that really stick with the boss

#

so that they can't be too unlucky

last needle
#

and the armor is already sub400m

#

slash bis coming from midgame boss wcyd

vocal nacelle
last needle
#

intended 60 hours completion

vocal nacelle
#

Dumbest fucking mistake on the planet

last needle
#

being bumped to 75 as if that's a significant enough difference

#

honestly they should rip the bandaid off and just adjust it again

#

but i doubt they will

vocal nacelle
#

Redditors completely disregarded shards being a major source of oathplate pieces is wild

last needle
#

obviously first iteration solution didnt change a thing

#

redditors would be pissed if they could read what you wrote

reef zinc
#

its just funny because the 60-75 hour thing doesn't even matter

#

its the fact that everyone that plays the game could kill yama almost and they could all contribute partial credit instantly towards items existing

#

so jagex just manufactured a situation where you could crowd source bad luck protection

#

so not only did you get the spooned items that you're gonna see on average but you also

#

stacked the bad luck protection items instantly

last needle
#

untradeable should've been the way

#

but alas

last needle
#

like if SRA pieces were tradeable

#

sra would be worth nothing

reef zinc
#

yeah the thing about all of those systems and why they're okay and really work is that frankly

#

most people give up before they can actually make use of them

#

lol and i guess they found out last wed what happens when you can actually realize those drop rates 100%

last needle
#

hopefully they have the sense to change things again 🤞

vocal nacelle
#

this is the shit I always respond with when i see some dumbasses say shit like "why arent sra pieces tradeable"

#

to preserve their value

#

if ur an iron, it doesn't matter either way

#

so they never complain about it

nocturne narwhal
#

it's a reward for continuing to kill the boss

#

idk why they undid that

vocal nacelle
#

give me 10 days to list off balance changes and I'll fix up this game kermit

viral sluice
#

wonder if theyll even acknowledge that mistake

#

prob not

vocal nacelle
#

the starting price matters a lot too

autumn thistle
#

50 people do 15 kills each

#

That’s guaranteed oathplate item in game

#

And since helmet is useless

#

EVERYONE is going to make chest/legs

viral sluice
#

the good thing is

#

itll eventually get powercreeped atleast by torva

#

lets be honest jagex aint gonna do shit

autumn thistle
#

Only at specific thresholds for scy maxes and even then, their love for def floors on NPCs always gonna favor oath

viral sluice
#

true ig

autumn thistle
#

You’ll need like

#

A set that has, either through set effect or raw bonus, the equivalent of 10 str bonus over oathplate for the max hits to generally be more valuable than the accuracy on anything with over like… 150 def

#

Also

#

With oath being so cheap because how attainable it is

#

Sure would be nice to get that extra +1 on treads to give path more value

#

🤣🤣

reef zinc
#

honestly they blew it lol

#

they need to make non slash weapons and bosses like asap

#

to fix this

autumn thistle
#

Ripping a bandaid off twice is almost as bad as ripping it off late

#

So they’ve really put themselves in a tough spot yeah

sweet comet
#

But I don't get what they expected

#

Like even disregarding shards the boss rates were always going to make the armor much less rare than Torva

#

They're even targeting a much lower hours to completion

autumn thistle
#

Too late to delete/make untradeable now too bc the people that bought/sold

#

Hard to believe they thought that was a good idea

sweet comet
#

I think jagex is stuck trying to figure out a solution for dry rate protection that people actually like

#

I think they should just like

#

Give up on dry rate protection

#

Lol

#

The dt2 implementation was largely the only version of it that really works but people are so upset about not knowing if they are 2/3

#

Dt2 is basically a curve that approaches 3x the intended drop rate as you go further dry

reef zinc
#

i mean the shards were a good idea

#

then they tried to do more with it and made it a really not good idea

#

if they were untradable its honestly fine

nocturne narwhal
#

yeah without shards, oath pieces are just more common

#

you just move the drop rate around to achieve a time to set they expect

#

but tradable shards make no sense and should be undone asap

vocal nacelle
#

7m kills is 7m shards iirc

#

which is... 20k oathplate bodies or legs

#

@autumn thistle @viral sluice

#

and that's not counting the oathplate drops by themselves

maiden crag
#

Or oath helm is gona be 25m in 2 weeks time

distant summit
autumn thistle
#

And that’s current

#

Not even a week in and with a 30% rate nerf

distant summit
#

I saw torva helm was 230m an rising actually close to passing the leg and plate lol

autumn thistle
#

Yeah Torva helm superiority these days lol

distant summit
#

Biggest issue with oathplate is its ugly as fuck and worst when mix and matched lol

runic haven
#

shiny oathplate looks very nice though

#

red one, not so much

stray kernel
#

oathplate is also not part of the topic of this thread

grim sierra
#

Yama might be one of the bosses where shadow sees more use because all this mage %

#

Gets mage camp dps a good bit closer to melee kills

distant summit
#

Wouldn’t the bonus be better for demonbane than shadow

#

Rember the double accuracy roll on 1 hand spells

#

Nvm it’s only 4 tick

#

Jagex make demonbane 4 tick

#

Or wait it was changed to be all 1 hands

grim sierra
#

The 10% dps buff to shadow will probably outway the gloves passive effect

daring granite
#

so demonbane still gets the buff

grim sierra
#

Do we think gear that adds proper mage str (not percent, not multiplied by shadow) would "solve" alot of this shadow ish?

#

Ranged for example, already has this between void and masori. If virtus had just added max hits, it would still have buffed ancients more than it buffed shadow and would be better for the eye with its faster attack speed.

undone talon
#

Imo, a % multiplier is overall a more healthy design compared to "str" that are flat additions to max. Being affected by attack speed is a big reason why slower weapons (both ranged and melee).

#

Shadow multiplier is a separate issue - it is a multiplier in the same way Scythe triple hit is a multiplier of melee str, and Tbow mage scaling is a multiplier of range str.

#

But the Shadow gear multiplier suppresses mage gear everywhere else

grim sierra
#

Yeah, a potential 8 tick dps melee weapon for example, would need to scale with strength 2x or have another passive that keeps it from breaking pvp as a finisher

#

However i think both % and flat have their place in game design, and design space in this game

undone talon
#

I agree, they both have their place. But flat hit is specifically better for faster weapons and I feel that's a narrower design space than just % increase. Which is why I feel % is better as the default while flat would be better as the special case.
(And Shadow is a different issue that tends to distract from this)

distant summit
grim sierra
distant summit
grim sierra
#

Ancestral is what you already wear with shadow by design??

distant summit
#

if you had mage str on virtus you would lose 27% compared to now.

grim sierra
#

I suppose in this hypothetical virtus could stay 2% or be made 1% with enough "mage str" to be equiv with shadow to current virtus dps

distant summit
#

Dont fix the issue, the problem is with shadows multiplicative scaling. it needs to be drastically reduced to basically 0 and more damage moved to the staff.

grim sierra
#

Thats an awful solution

distant summit
#

The multiplicative scaling is there to enforce shadows domiance inside its own raid

#

but that enroaches on mage gear hard

vocal nacelle
grim sierra
#

Shadow not requiring 8/9 ways defeats the point

vocal nacelle
#

Lower the cap to 80% outside raid and next 2% increase we get, it’s capped, so shadow is less of an encroachment

#

It’s almost like I should be a dev erm

distant summit
grim sierra
distant summit
#

Shadow needs to lose its multiplicative scaling or else it will never be balanced.

vocal nacelle
vocal nacelle
#

u still need 8-9 way to hit 80%

#

until much later

#

can make it 1:1 after 80%

distant summit
#

Because you cant add any mage% damage without it being super impactful to shadow and non existent for other styles

grim sierra
#

But you could add mage str to benefit a 3tick wand more than shadow peepognomeblush

distant summit
grim sierra
#

2 tick more extreme than 3tick and isnt even a problem

#

Twisted bow scales off range strength nearly as much as blowpipe does

distant summit
#

oh i agree, tbow is also a problem. but they tend to not care if megas are an issue, because they megas.

#

it only becomes a problem when mid game items (blowpipe) are at the power of a mega

#

But tbow has the tuning nobs of just not adding mage lvl to the npc or beefing its ranged defense.

#

shadow dont got any tuning levers outside of just making the boss immune to magic lol

grim sierra
#

Luckily blowpipe is not accurate anymore 🙂

There is a 0% chance jagex goes with mage str as a concept, but i think itd work pretty well. Fairly certain jagex just keeps pushing elemental and "bane" stuff. I doubt shadows passive even gets changed at this rate.

undone talon
#

Relative to other megas, shadow's tuning lever is reducing the boss's defences so scythe or tbow can hit on the boss

distant summit
grim sierra
#

Shadows lever is just give elemental or demon/dragon status, and make boss bad to 5tick cycle attack.

distant summit
#

the confliction gauntlets was a wake up call that it is a problem

grim sierra
#

The gauntlets did not need a passive if they were going to give us a mage bowfa anyways, now they are giving us 2 "gap fillers"

#

And honestly the gauntlets making everything accurate just doubles down on limiting what design space they have later. Because now every mage weapon a passive to negate accuracy checks.

undone talon
#

Mage in max gear has lower raw dps than melee with a whip, so accuracy being mage's niche is fine imo.

#

The less there are tanky defense bosses, the better. Experience-wise, I prefer bosses designed with higher hp over higher def.

grim sierra
#

I can agree with that, especially considering mages role (outside of shadow) is often freezing or blood barrage heals, both of which are very frustrating to have inaccurate.

autumn thistle
#

More hp & less def = zcb, my beloved

#

110 feels good on the aorta

grim sierra
#

Zcb coolest ranged weapon dont at me

undone talon
#

Kinda sad zcb spec hasn't been so useful on the past few new bosses (excluding titans).

#

Zcb spec/Elder Maul into scythe is probably my favorite "design" of a boss. As long as it is all consistent hits.

#

(with some gear switches sprinkled in to break up the pattern)

grim sierra
#

It will always have its place for speed CAs feelsgoodman

viral sluice
#

zcb isnt even that cool lol

#

guarnatees bolt spec whats so special about that

#

imagine if there was smth like sgb or ecb

grim sierra
#

SGB spec would be pretty interesting, might need content designed for it

viral sluice
#

i guess sure

#

sgb in my mind would work with smite

#

and ur forced to keep smite on, cant flick it

#

any prayer u smite would be dealt as additional damage

#

so cant use it everywhere essentially

grim sierra
#

Smite in general could see more use in pvm. They were cooking with muspah.

autumn thistle
#

What if raid 4 has new tier of spec weps, one for each combat style

#

would work for not binning bow scy or shadow

grim sierra
#

That feels like the obvious choice imo, just needs to be giga powerful and not good in pvp

#

Sgb in multi pvp would be comical though

viral sluice
#

l0l

grim sierra
#

Although besides spec weapons, jagex seems to be holding out for prayer rewards over rigour etc

autumn thistle
#

Idek what sgb is ngl

#

Oh seren godbow

undone talon
#

I could see a raids 4 for the finale rs gods questline.

#

God prayers, megarare jewelry like emperor (zaros) ring, etc

#

Just gotta add unique effects so it isn't just pure damage creep

remote mica
rancid ruin
#

nah mate

#

fourth combat style necromancy mega rare

reef zinc
#

i mean honestly its gotta just be damage creep

#

lol that sounds boring but like

#

nobody really wants the osrs devs to flip everything upside down and change the way we actually interact with pve

#

so all they can really do is creep on whatever lane the items they make occupy

grim sierra
#

2t/3t melee weapon could be fun, all the megas are 5t, any change from that would shake stuff up

vocal nacelle
#

attack timer could fully reset on kill

#

or ramp-up like blood moon set