100000%
#Yama
somber tendon
sudden falcon
no one was honest that the raid was boring
somber tendon
i truly dont want to shit on anyone
sudden falcon
I played day 1 and thought it was lack later as fuck
somber tendon
but like come on, its borderline gaslighting what theyre doing
sudden falcon
i truly dont want to shit on anyone
Aatykon, mammal, Jake C
loud flicker
The facts that these systems exist to benefit casuals, is baffling
somber tendon
dont make a worse system than orbs, and then gaslight us about it
the beta testers are ass
they are in it for themselves
100%
loud flicker
Is there another English
Like how are the folks saying that this looks like orbs and they’re saying it’s not 🫣
sudden falcon
It’s like how gnomemonkey short was praising invo system on release and then finally got honest with how shit it was
somber tendon
and the people who just vehemently defend them with no facts or skill
just because they think calling out this stuff is harassment or bullying or whatever weird shit they think of
its annoying
thats detrimental to progress in this game
somber tendon
It’s like how gnomemonkey short was praising invo system on release and then fin...
idk why we listen to him tbh
like truly
dull beacon
He is the timmies endgame pvmer
somber tendon
hard agree
dull beacon
sudden falcon
I’d argue it’s better to focus on the truthful criticism than the false praise
which streamers default to the latter
If the company (not Jagex) gets upset by legitimate criticism and refuse to work with the streamer after they told the truth about a beta test, that’s just laughable
sudden falcon
"WHY are contracts just level 600 invocation Yama?"
No like seriously 😐
How did no one catch WTP 1.0
dull beacon
Seeing more than 4k hp on Yama was wild
swift lava
Typical “too stuck on this idea and unwilling to give it up because of the time I spent” issue
somber tendon
cough sailing cough
subtle canopy
Honestly going forward I think it would be good to share the vision
At least then there'd be readily available feedback on systems that work and systems that don't work
And then viable alternatives to systems that they want to use but aren't ideal (see orbs/contracts)
tbh
prime thistle
Like how are the folks saying that this looks like orbs and they’re saying it’s ...
There are plenty of English words to describe this
Like "lying"
Lmao
They were truly just saying words and gaslighting on that topic it was like someone took a bulletpoint list of what people did not like about orbs and said let's do it again
It wasn't that they didn't get feedback or misunderstood after orbs 1.0
They just totally disregarded it and thought they knew better
To the surprise of nobody they didn't
And now they've made huge change to rates like close to 20x
And nobody was happy
And they look dumb
astral gust
Honestly going forward I think it would be good to share the vision
About to jump off for the weekend but agree, think this is equal parts on me and a little on the turnaround between Runefest/release, something I screwed up on big time for sure and not a mistake I'll be making again
prime thistle
I mean I dont know if its all on you you're in a pretty unfortunate situation and people are shooting the messenger a bit
I guess that's maybe part of the job description
subtle canopy
About to jump off for the weekend but agree, think this is equal parts on me and...
you're doing a good job ❤️ always appreciate your continuing to engage the community even though its a slog
prime thistle
Like if you talk to the devs and they say they learned from orbs you're going to tell us that as an example
And then if that turns out to be questionable it looks intentional when idk what else you were supposed to say lol
astral gust
you're doing a good job ❤️ always appreciate your continuing to engage the commu...
No use only engaging when it's good innit, is just the job! Never hurts to reflect a little though
loud flicker
subtle canopy
for sure, and a lot of people are super heated up because we care about the quality and direction of the game
def hoping we can get more communication on stuff like this moving forward!
prime thistle
I've always sort of felt bad for cms anywhere even though its by design they're kind of occasionally a shield for the devs
astral gust
I've always sort of felt bad for cms anywhere even though its by design they're ...
Is a shared responsibility, would never throw anybody under the bus because it's a team effort ultimately - have never really seen myself as a shield for anything but their time. Let the smart people code, let the gremlin yap
unkempt moat
let the goblin yap etc
prime thistle
Its mostly just that you end up out here directly interacting with it when things go wrong and people will naturally say whatever and maybe even blame you for it
And realistically its obviously not you in particular that made the decision
subtle canopy
there was a guy complaining on reddit yesterday that you could disassemble oathplate
cause he already transferred his dupe over to his main 
unkempt moat
is there a chance we will see some of the contracts getting reworked still?
some of them rlly dont make sense
and the medic contract does not seem very fun either
i feel like the awakened bosses was hard, but also super fastpaced
subtle canopy
i feel like the awakened bosses was hard, but also super fastpaced
keep in mind i havent watched too much of the contracts intently, but stabilizing/recovery from making mistakes for those bosses imo was a big part of their fairness
(at least it was for me)
unkempt moat
levi in particular yea
subtle canopy
watching the severence contract
unkempt moat
idk about vard
subtle canopy
it does look a little unfair LOL
prime thistle
It basically looks like do this correctly or die instantly which works its just
unkempt moat
watching the severence contract
3k hp kephri that when u miss a swarm either heals to full, oneshots you and needs tick perfect flicking entire fight
whats not to love in that
sudden falcon
divine severance splashing on void flares is criminal 
subtle canopy
5 min phases!
loud flicker
Is a shared responsibility, would never throw anybody under the bus because it's...
Before you do leave, don’t know if you’re able to pass this but please don’t make delve 1-4 farmable like wave like 1 Colo is 🙏
unkempt moat
take me back to awakened vard, if orbs was free i would just send that boss for fun
more fun than normal vard for sure
prime thistle
I'm curious why they didn't just release these one at a time
sudden falcon
take me back to awakened vard, if orbs was free i would just send that boss for ...
idk why its not just outright bis to farm
CG is better than normal gauntlet
subtle canopy
Before you do leave, don’t know if you’re able to pass this but please don’t mak...
i feel like this will be particularly difficult because then delve 1-4 will simply not be worth doing
loud flicker
take me back to awakened vard, if orbs was free i would just send that boss for ...
Legit
subtle canopy
but they're also not scaling reg loot iirc
prime thistle
I feel like there is some dissonance with the scaling level thing of the delve and not scaling the regular loot
subtle canopy
i dont want delve 1-4 being powerfarmed, but i also dont want to waste my time with delve 1-4
if you know what i mean
unkempt moat
awakened vard absolute banger 🔥
prime thistle
I see they wouldn't want to scale loot but
There is a time and place for that kind of thing and the delve is probably it
subtle canopy
There is a time and place for that kind of thing and the delve is probably it
it also depends on the difficulty of the bossfight
iirc delve 8 is "fun for people able to complete the inferno"
i could be forgetting exactly the wording here
unkempt moat
idk lol rn im just kinda sad because i will probably have to send these to retain zuk helm next week, and looking at how the fights seem (from the eyes of a spectator) is just despair
prime thistle
Have they replied to the gm helm thing yet
People were speculating they wouldn't be included earlier
unkempt moat
no but awakened bosses was zuk req
if some amounts of these arent i would be surprised
prime thistle
And tbh they should be included what's the point right if they dont include the hardest bosses
unkempt moat
yes but at the same time
prime thistle
But some were saying any contract works for the ca
unkempt moat
sending a 540 1+3 kephri wasnt a toa req
idk ill reserve my complaints until wednesday when i actually see it
prime thistle
I kinda think they could meet in the middle a bit and change some of these contracts
They really did go with the 600 toa scaling vibe lol
unkempt moat
well one could definitely argue some of these should be duo
especially the medic one
but idk how fair that is to the day 1 doers
prime thistle
I mean
One of them was impossible and people spent hundreds of mil trying it anyways
unkempt moat
real
unkempt moat
well whatever doesnt matter
jagex call
eager to see if it gets a completion in the next 2 hours
prime thistle
Yeah I think they made the right call to buff the contracts at least
unkempt moat
yes
prime thistle
There were just some unfortunate casualties lol
prime thistle
I feel like it was all too predictable lol
I saw the rates and said no and didn't open my dossiers
I was 100% sure this was the outcome
unkempt moat
oh i did that too, but i got baited into opening them on wednesday
because i figured that was just it for a while
avg
prime thistle
I just dont know what kind of struggle was going on for jagex
unkempt moat
its pretty fun that i have 90 contracts dropped from these demons so far, but only 5 of them are forfeit breath
and im fulfilling the conditions on just about every single kill
ty jagex
prime thistle
Like if I could just see the rates and do that immediately and know lol they had to know too
prime thistle
It might be
unkempt moat
33 bloodied blows, 5 forfeit
theres just no way if its randomly chosen (assuming same amount of kills per glyph)
unkempt moat
theres just no way if its randomly chosen (assuming same amount of kills per gly...
(i think the chance of getting each glyph isnt random, i feel like i get the yellow forfeit glyph 2-3 times more rare than the 2h or demonbane spell one)
but might just be bad rng no sample size
eager gust
we did this
it took them 3 times to finally change their mind on delve rewards
every blog before that was basically "we hear u but dont care"
prime thistle
The blizzard special
The best part about those situations is typically the ending where after ignoring all the feedback
eager gust
yh
goblin being here is good
but at the end of the day
the dev decides
and alot of them have too much pride and ego
to admit the idea they haev
is hot garbage
prime thistle
Some poor guy has to come out there and do gymnastics to explain how they agree that it's bad and then somehow explain away the part where everyone instantly knew it but they refused to accept it
And make it sound rational lol
eager gust
yh itll happen again im sure of it
because the people ocmmunicating with us
are not the ones who are actively making these choices
prime thistle
It depends too in game design you do need to stick to your ideas sometimes even if people say it won't work
You really need to pick your battles well though
Sometimes people really dont get it until theyre playing it
But that only applies when it's actually different and they dont understand
With contracts people already told them they dont like plenty of the concepts after playing them and they did it again anyways
Thats not great lol
eager gust
yh thats what i mean
this is just reskinned content people hated
and the end bosses of that contract is another think people hated - boosted def/hp etc
for rewards it was just crazy tbh
the delve ones
treads which prob wouldve crashed cuz of peg crystal
some weird demon wep
and mage cape which was meh
acoustic viper
What surprises me the most about delve is how the disconnect between jagex and the playerbase could have happened. How on earth did jagex hype it up as an infinite enrage boss first of its kind, true endgame, and then come up with it not being infinite enrage at all and midgame lol
Glad it's somewhat fixed
But we all had the idea it would be like telos or zammy from rs3, infinite enrage, the higher enrage you go the higher chance you get of good loot
Infinite enrage would keep the boss relevant for a long time - people would push each other to reach higher and higher enrage. Crazy showoff between top tier pvmers
Especially if you could show off the prestige in a way per x percentage enrage
swift lava
Infinite enrage would be literally the easiest way to get longevity from different player skill tiers and would be so fun to play
Balancing rewards is the hard part I guess
acoustic viper
Infinite enrage would be literally the easiest way to get longevity from differe...
Exactly
swift lava
Never played telos but have seen vids and am decently familiar with enrage mechanics, at least at fundamentally
And half the hype of delve for me was thinking it’d be that
Still am reasonably optimistic about it though. Surely it’ll be an overall improvement from Yama when looking at total delivery (drop rates, accessibility, etc)
eager gust
honestly as soon as i heard delve my heart sank
i was so excited for an enrage boss because its actual risk vs reward
and then in the blog they just completely change it
there is no risk vs reward left whatsoever
glass shoal
After contracts I dont trust this group of devs to release any good endgame content
eager gust
who in there right mind is gonna risk tread drop when tehy can leave and be back there in 30 mins
if ur design for this boss is risk vs reward
and u do this
ur just plain dumb
glass shoal
who in there right mind is gonna risk tread drop when tehy can leave and be back...
Exactly. It's gonna be colo 2.0
eager gust
u literally think for 30 seconds about the flaws of the system
and it goes against the very thing ur going to accomplish
so how o nearth did it pass multiple devs and get past into the blog and is now being pushed in the game
the rewards were so bad noone ever talked about it either
because they were just shitting on the rewards
need kieran back on this
its clear the new devs have no idea
u know the worst part
they are still advertising it as an enrage boss
basically rubbing salt in the wound
astral gust
They've outdone themselves
At least it got a 2am hotfix
sudden falcon
At least it got a 2am hotfix
loud flicker
At least it got a 2am hotfix
Respect
sudden falcon
ty goblins
mental solar
go back to bed now, goblin boy
astral gust
ty goblins
and Rice and Lenny
sudden falcon
and rice and lenny 
loud flicker
Sani tryna watch the world burn...
sudden falcon
shut up sani 
glass shoal
What am i missing
sudden falcon
sani with no corp pet be like:
glass shoal
Oh it’s the rat boy. Wws
naive mauve
When you don't have late to endgame melee equipment, or maxed melee, out DPSing the chip damage in solo is a real task
eager gust
definietly was astorm just in all the wrong ways
fkin hell it costs runes to make the armour too
really gonna force ppl to rc again
dull beacon
eager gust
479 solos t oget required catalysts
whata an absolute joke
when u thought it coudltn get worse, it gets worse
pastel swan
you can also do 15 aether contracts 
eager gust
glass shoal
Reminder that no one has beaten the pet or the oathplate contract still
In fact the pet contract may be impossible you take so much chip damage p3
wheat iron
Hello i haven't checked this Discord for a week so sorry if Its been talked about.
But has anyone completed the worms contract yet?
The 700k contract where your reward is 250 worms.
wheat iron
and Rice and Lenny
Any plans to tweak the "acquisition" contract battle? Right now it's pretty much impossible for solo with 4 full hp flares spawning on P3. I haven't seen anyone finish a single one yet. I know it's supposed to be a hard encounter but surely this is bit overboard with that?
eager gust
hard encounter where u spend more time killing the stuff it spawns than the actual boss
pulsar hearth
wish contracts were duo still ngl
sudden falcon
wish contracts were duo still ngl
and rewarding both players
pulsar hearth
im only 1/5 but id be alot more inclined to actually do them if i wasnt losing 1.3m+ a death or if they were duo and werent 10 min tedious long fights of basically, dont make a mistake whole fight
glass shoal
I’d be more inclined if roath plate didn’t look worse than the base armor too
eager gust
id be more inclined if it was better gp/hr than killing a mid lvl slayer monster too
twin gorge
how's the public beta so far?
wheat iron
No clears apart from the 1 worm success?
unkempt moat
No clears apart from the 1 worm success?
kirby got pet clear earlier
glass shoal
kirby got pet clear earlier
Really
wheat iron
I don't understand, if Jagex is at work today why do we have to wait until thursday to fix a bug that makes completing the duo-able acquisition contracts in a solo impossible? They changed it on a Friday night for the kit contract. This also has a cost of entry (higher than the kit) so it just scams players for their money and time?
Or am i misunderstanding it and it's still possible to complete them in a solo?
acoustic viper
I don't understand, if Jagex is at work today why do we have to wait until thurs...
Probably the same reason that they made oathplate helmet garbage and horn garbage too and still haven't fixed them: it takes them time to balance it properly I guess
wheat iron
But I'm not even talking about the balance of the fight itself, which is pretty overtuned difficulty wise. I'm talking about a clear bug, pretty much the same one that they fixed within hours on one of the kit contracts.
The only difference here is that there's not hundreds of players trying out the acquisition contract because we know it's bugged now and so might aswell just not do it.
It just doesn't make any sense. If you somehow don't have time to fix it then disable those acquisition contracts for the time being.
glass shoal
Or at the very least put out a tweet or announcement saying “hey psa this is broken so try it at your own risk” or something
unkempt moat
<@1170016131847831572> is the pet contract compelted once by any1 yet?
kirby completed it on stream
proper ivy
kirby completed it on stream
malgoatkirby?
unkempt moat
malgoatkirby?
yes
pulsar hearth
making p3 25% longer and 40% longer on gylphic attentuation is a choice
prime thistle
i like the way they were thinking about that at least
idk if i would've arrived at their solution but lol
like more of the fight should be p3 but like
idk if making it longer than it already was instead of just reducing the hp that you were removing from the other phases was really the right call
but
i will say i didn't actually do the math to see the real hp difference since they did reduce the overall hp at the same time
it might actually be very similar
prime thistle
ya i was going to say after just looking at it
its actually substantially more hp
like glyphing just doing mental math is like 400 more hp
rough flint
making p3 25% longer and 40% longer on gylphic attentuation is a choice
Making it 25% longer on acquisitions when no1 even complete a solo one is a choice too 
prime thistle
i guess it just depends on how much the prayer bonus thing buffs damage by and if people play for it
astral gust
Making it 25% longer on acquisitions when no1 even complete a solo one is a choi...
JRaze just got 3% away for the pizza version, and I think his method works for the tile ragging on the oathplate/harmony ones too
Suspect people will start completing them before long
pulsar hearth
can you bring up to the team perhaps adjusting p1/p2 transition phases being more in line with how long you'd spend in p3 since its a fair bit longer now? say for example, 70 and 40% transition phase? @astral gust
glass shoal
Why were the pet contracts not really looked at? As it stands it’s still basically ragging your teammate for a rate that’s not worth the effort
glass shoal
Just make the pet contract 100% again
sudden falcon
unkempt moat
Just make the pet contract 100% again
Or like, alot more likely
And have it apply to both players
But great update anyway, just hoping divine severance void flares just gets a slight buff
glass shoal
Yh 1/10 is fine if the whole guarantee thing is too much
But 1/250 for one person is crazy talk and the fact that they didn’t touch it at all is wild
glass shoal
Nevermind I just spooned pet make it 1/2,000 who cares
prime thistle
i honestly have no idea why pet contract exists to begin with
"yo wanna come do this super hard boss fight with me and get nothing loool?"
even if they fix that part its still a little weird like the whole point of pets generally is that they're this really rare drop and you can pull them out like look at this crazy thing i got
when they do contracts or things like araxxor where you can double the rate it kinda takes away the point of even having a pet to begin with
sudden falcon
even if they fix that part its still a little weird like the whole point of pets...
They’re trying way too fucking hard when the CG/HMT/CM systems do work and don’t have an anal system of hunting items to do the harder content.
Base rate is shit, efficient rate is to do the harder difficulty version. And you can faceroll attempts as needed.
prime thistle
They’re trying way too fucking hard when the CG/HMT/CM systems do work and don’t...
ya i agree honestly
i feel like we just experiment with stuff to experiment sometimes
i get that they probably would think its boring or would rather do something different but sometimes the thing that just works is the correct choice
and im ngl i feel like that doesn't happen much
glass shoal
They’re just experimenting too much
It’s fine to try something new but we’ve been trying something new on every endgame update since 2022
naive mauve
They’re trying way too fucking hard when the CG/HMT/CM systems do work and don’t...
I think with Yama, it's more in attempt to integrate further with the game as a whole, and help prevent the Zulrah/Vorkath drop table issues, while also preventing the Nex/GWD dungeon drop table issues.
Cause the contracts can be farmed from Black Demons, giving them more Slayer usage.
They also help prop up the drop table between uniques, without just dumping straight gold into the market via alchables, or resources from straight drops. The Worms are a great way to do "resource drops" IMO.
The pizza fix would have covered it, I think, if it was like 5-10/attempt instead of 100, or a permanent unlock. I can understand needing a contract per actual attempt, but practice runs shouldn't cost much, if at all
dull beacon
100 pizzas is pretty random
At least increase shop stock on them
So every iron isn't at eachothers throats buying out worlds
sudden falcon
Also, aside from Contracts, all the CAs are braindead easy this time 
can we please put the purifying sigil into collection log
naive mauve
Do Moonlight Moths count as potions for the no drinking one?
sudden falcon
And all sigil contracts
swift lava
Fine. 100 pizzas for one attempt, 5000 pizzas for permanent unlock
dull beacon
Deal
sudden falcon
Fine. 100 pizzas for one attempt, 5000 pizzas for permanent unlock
10000
dull beacon
Shush you
swift lava
10000
One could only be so cruel 😭 (laughing @ uim pain of not being able to amass noted pizzas)
sudden falcon
One could only be so cruel 😭 (laughing @ uim pain of not being able to amass no...
I need a small loan of 60b gp
for the surge pot dream
swift lava
The thought of running 2500 pizzas deliveries, 4 at a time, on a uim is hilarious though
Dominos role play
sudden falcon
Dominos role play
Good good
peak rampart
lmao
wheat iron
JRaze is allegedly down 4b from Yama
0 Oath completions
1 Harmony
And he's probably the only person even trying
worldly bane
mods please just make the acquisition contracts untradable distraction and diversion content that's slightly more difficult than the base fight so that everyone can enjoy the content
let the sweats have the cosmetic contracts
it would be interesting if acquisition contracts were RNG, like there was only 1 acquisition contract that dropped from a dossier. so you could either drop worms, shards, runes, or whole pieces, but you run it duo with a partner just like a clue scroll
oh sweet we got a clue let's see what we get
contracts are just sitting in my bank until i can give them to death, because like 1 guy can run them in the entire game
how is that a good system
subtle canopy
why gatekeep yourself out of enjoying them
the acquisition contracts are meant for everybody to enjoy
probably more so for irons than mains because its another additional way you can access the items
well instead of hmming me i'd like to hear your reasoning as to why you cant enjoy them
worldly bane
are they like magically easier now after the patch? have a lot of people completed the oathplate contract?
subtle canopy
i dont know of anyone who has completed the oathplate acquisition contract so far
but im not following people who are doing them
worldly bane
wow everyone seems to be enjoying them
subtle canopy
i mean
its literally new content
thats difficult
the lower-tier acquisition contracts have been completed
why not aspire to work towards being able to complete them instead of asking for them to be nerfed?
sudden falcon
why not aspire to work towards being able to complete them instead of asking for...
I still think contracts should be obscenely rare but never vanish on death.
This would encourage you to be better in all examples or it sits in bank 
subtle canopy
yea that could be neat
as it is i think the intent is to shelve the upfront risk
which i also get because there is a straight material reward at the end of it
worldly bane
why not aspire to work towards being able to complete them instead of asking for...
if the best players in the world can't complete them in 2 weeks then there's no hope for me (or most people) after 10000 hrs lol
subtle canopy
i dont know if the contracts are even solved yet
im sure that smarter players will figure it out and the methods will develop to accomodate
the player base as a whole is a lot better than what it used to be
i'm sure there used to be content that you thought was impossible and then you completed it and overcame it
subtle canopy
if the best players in the world can't complete them in 2 weeks then there's no ...
i wouldnt be so quick to brush yourself off
if you play the game long enough you'll be better at the game
thats not like a sweeping generalization becausue some people don't care to be better haha
(which is fine because they can enjoy the game that they like)
pulsar hearth
Jraze is -7b
subtle canopy
Jraze is -7b
my goat
pulsar hearth
Tryna do oathpate contract
subtle canopy
how far has he gotten?
dull beacon
It's communism, take from the greedy bourgeoisie endgame pvmers, share with the proletariat early to midgame pvmers
And ge tax eats 2%
subtle canopy
i wonder how much money the top end gamers have dumped in orbs as well
be a neat statistic
worldly kettle
how far has he gotten?
117 hp, although he finished the harmony contract which is the exact same fight
i'm not even sure anyone other than jraze is attempting these, honestly. if the price genuinely craters to like 5m the risk/reward might even out, but even practicing them is ludicrously expensive as it is.
loud flicker
i wonder how much money the top end gamers have dumped in orbs as well
😬
I lost over 40% of orbs to dcs 
And a few more for learning the boss during awakened as I didn’t pot dt2 content post release
glass shoal
i'm not even sure anyone other than jraze is attempting these, honestly. if the ...
Ya I don’t think anyone else is doing them
It’s more 1nd awakeners content tbh. Your enjoyment of this update is exponentially better if you pretend the contract versions never exist
sharp nacelle
so glad only 1 contract is on gm lol
pastel swan
itd be nice if they made contracts also give drops
i swear they literally said it would even 😭
like idk man they just have a nicer cycle lol
id assume they're faster even (for solo) cause of the judge speed
eager gust
Jraze is -7b
"will be a better system than awakeners orbs"
pulsar hearth
Shoulda allowed you to do them over n over after youve completed it
Bloodied was enjoyable but im not tryna pay over a mill an attempt again
sudden falcon
so glad only 1 contract is on gm lol
I hate the contracts, but I also hate that they're refusing to add CAs simply because "its too hard" 
sharp nacelle
Is that actually the reason
sudden falcon
There's no good reason why DT2 has all 4 awakeneds and this one only has 1/8
sharp nacelle
I wouldn’t care if they were all on there if there wasn’t a system to spoonfeed midgame Timmy’s
sudden falcon
It's the same reason why Blorva Kit and Radiant Kit aren't on clog either
sudden falcon
I wouldn’t care if they were all on there if there wasn’t a system to spoonfeed ...
The one thing I would MASSIVELY prefer is if the contracts were super rare
but they did not vanish on death/consumed on entry
only on completion
sharp nacelle
Blorva shouldn’t be on there either 🤷🏿♂️
sharp nacelle
It's the same reason why Blorva Kit and Radiant Kit aren't on clog either
Never even realized this, that’s funny
sudden falcon
kinda defeats the purpose of having a log of all uniques if they're not going to include all the uniques 
same for CAs
prime thistle
i mean its mostly just embarassing for them
like
the reason they dont all have a CA for gm etc
is that they know the quality level of the boss fights just isn't there
so they dont want to ask players to do it
off the top of my head im pretty sure its the only jagex intended difficult boss fight that isn't included in getting gm
pretty much everything else thats excluded is a player created difficulty like trying to do a solo tob
they simply didn't have enough confidence to ask people to do each of these and they weren't even wrong for that but
you'd like to think they could just do a better job
sudden falcon
pretty much everything else thats excluded is a player created difficulty like t...
I wouldn’t even mind this as a CA now because it’ll absolutely encourage some low cost strats like guthans down the line.
dull beacon
With the chip damage changes, i actually wonder how viable dharoking bloodied blows is now
On release it's trolling, but if you lack a scythe
sudden falcon
they simply didn't have enough confidence to ask people to do each of these and ...
Remember when people were moaning about 500 toa as a task? Even though Jagex made it the equivalent of 450 pre-buff.
pastel swan
kinda defeats the purpose of having a log of all uniques if they're not going to...
we need comp cape for this tbh
radiant+blorva+2k kc capes etc.
glass shoal
they simply didn't have enough confidence to ask people to do each of these and ...
Imagine if they put the oathplate contract on gm lol
sudden falcon
And they should
Arbitrarily choosing not to add something to CAs or collection log is wtf when that’s supposed to be their purpose
pastel swan
And they should
im literally just assuming every zuk helm is bought if they do
subtle canopy
xd
graceful heath
pet contract only affects the drop rate of the person using it right?
maiden roost
LOOOL
sudden falcon
off the top of my head im pretty sure its the only jagex intended difficult boss...
4/5 since yesterday night 
Sensory clouding got mega buffed though with the changes.
I think the CA should be all 5 pieces ngl
prime thistle
They probably feel like they can't fix it
What are you going to do nerf the rates so its shit for people doing the boss
Make shards untradable and delete their precious mining method
wheat iron
Make shards untradable and delete their precious mining method
that would be a good step
prime thistle
Yeah but that would imply theyre willing to give up on bad ideas
And idk if that's actually true
They seem like theyre in deep with several extremely unpopular ideas and just went in with them regardless
Like its pretty obvious that the shards should not be tradable but are they willing to let go of their skilling method tie in
They should be because it's holding the loot table back but idk
dull beacon
30% of armor is being shoved into the economy because of those shards being tradeable
And 0 armor of it is the helmet
dull beacon
It's funny, they tried the tradeable shard system to avoid pumping the common loot table up with good stuff people want
And all it really did was nuke the longterm profitability from orbit
Just about every single kill contributes to the lowered price of oathplate
sudden falcon
And all it really did was nuke the longterm profitability from orbit
And once figured out, contracts provided a secondary shock even though it at most makes up like 5% of total gear.
Too many coming into the game in a short period = temporary glut = price goes down, but doesn't recover
Welcome to the markets 
sudden falcon
They probably feel like they can't fix it
"We thought shards were a good idea, but evidently too many are being made. We will revert the shard nerf from 450 back down to 350 (or even 300), but make it untradeable so they suit their actual purpose".
Yama has a decent amount of base drops and doesn't need more if it's providing BIS chase items lol
swift lava
Give Torva a set effect that gives an additional 2 str bonus with full set
glass shoal
Now that I have roathplate I’d like it to be good to wear the full set
Shit is clean
pulsar hearth
helm is the sickest part of the set
espc the blue eyes
it looks so good
and it never gets use
so stupid
PLEASE just give treads 7 str
quasi ether
That would make it so oath is almost never used (with scythe) no? Or still not 52 max?
worldly bane
wheat iron
Ye you're right let's just go through the fang situation again in a year or two
swift lava
That would make it so oath is almost never used (with scythe) no? Or still not 5...
Would still be an additional 2 str away from Torva 52
With scb
7 on boots gives oath 50 max with set, bout it
quasi ether
Dang
sudden falcon
7 on boots gives oath 50 max with set, bout it
yeah, which isn't great, but still good 
It's lowkey annoying how ranged gets 3 str and melee gets nothing when ranged has more hyperscaling weapons
melee scales the slowest out of all three styles
swift lava
More I think about it, the more I think Torva should just have 2 more str bonus, that way (outside of random max hit thresholds where you need 5 str instead of 4), it’s always 2 base max hits over oath
Bc then you actually end up at a place where you’re almost always choosing either full oath or full torva, and there would 100% be places for both
Instead of oath being 3-7% better on def and <1% worse on no def, it’d be like 3-5% better on def and 3-5% worse on 0 def
ez W
sharp nacelle
how do u achieve good marketplace for oathplate thats not just nerfing drop rate by about 50%
untradeable shards are a given
but its farmable asf as is. You'd have to make it pretty rare
sudden falcon
untradeable shards are a given
66-75% shards needed to build an item, but untradeable
that's honestly pretty fair tradeoff
I've been saying for a long time how they can cut torva grind time in half just by subbing it out with torva bars
and it wouldn't impact the prices
glass shoal
how do u achieve good marketplace for oathplate thats not just nerfing drop rate...
They should also ban Gnomonkey
Unrelated but just ban him
sudden falcon
well, it would have a 2-5%
benefit
since he's one of maybe 20 people that are doing oatplate contrcts
market prices is often vibes influenced 
glass shoal
Osrs without gnome and a cold one
sudden falcon
swift lava
Half the problem with oath is that it basically outperforms Torva in most relevant content, with how easy it is to get, it crashes all other melee gear with it
Give Torva 2 more str bonus and then, 1 to each the chest and legs, and then oath actually does fit in as a side grade instead of a replacement 90% of the time
sudden falcon
Give Torva 2 more str bonus and then, 1 to each the chest and legs, and then oat...
Torva was always insane weak for how many hours it takes to get
And widening the gap does give it more space if they want to fit something like Oathplate in
The alternative is buff Torva so its not used in 10% of previous cases, or buff its drop rate, which also negatively impacts the price as well
And I'd rather buff Torva by 2-6 more str bonus
pastel swan
I just do not know why the shards aren't untradeable. If they were, so much more people would be inclined to buy infernal shale to offload it.
currently it just reads like an ironman only method that they randomly added as a result
opal kite
People complain so much, asking for free str bonus is absurd, we still haven't had any new prayers when piety is a 18year old bis we need that first.
Oathplate is already too strong it needs it's defence nerfed if you want torva to be more then marginally better.
quasi ether
+2 torva set bonus
opal kite
Torva should only get buffed if we nerf piety to 20%
pulsar hearth
idk if itll be the mega rare per say
but id be very surprised if they didnt release new prayers for raids 4 above current piety/rigour/augury
especially meelee
prime thistle
they probably wont replace rigour like ever honestly
at least not until they cave and allow a prayer expansion to actually just be better
the struggle of trying to 5head some new prayers when people were asking them for upgrades the last time was bad enough lol i dont think they'll make it through another one of those without just doing it
dull beacon
I honestly think we just have to accept some decent power creep if they ever touch prayers again
I hope they do, for me curses were pretty iconic
And gave such a good reason to grind 90+
I'd like to see high level prayers
Fuck muh powercreep
Trying to make them tradeoffs was a really weird way to approach it
glass shoal
If they make new prayers though it has to be turmoil and it has to have the same animation
That’s what made it so sick was shooting lightning out your hands
swift lava
People complain so much, asking for free str bonus is absurd, we still haven't ...
Nerfing the def bonuses won’t do anything impactful
But having a separation of 2 base max hits between oath and Torva instead of 1 and sometimes 2 would actually position oath to be the sidegrade it’s supposed to be
And yes, that can likely be achieved with a higher multiplier prayer
2 str on Torva would do the same
dull beacon
Make helm a colossal 10 and we got a deal
And make the mixed clown suit meta live forever
swift lava
swift lava
If they didn’t skimp out on melee bonuses all the time, there’d be more meaningful divide between sets
Inq bandos moons torso and soul all having the same str bonus is good jokes
dull beacon
Legacy of the "1 max hit is too much!" Era of osrs balancing
Saledor rapier and mace kinda got fucked too by that
swift lava
Fr they did
Project rebalance 2.0 pls
The whole oath thing, I just think it’s way too common. And because it is so much better than pretty much anything else, it tanks all other melee gear
So the options are:
- Ignore and accept
- Nerf oath drop rates again (either direct nerf, untradeable shards, etc)
- Nerf oathplate
- Slight buff to Torva so that it fits equally in content to oath, instead of usually being replaced
In order, I’d prefer Torva buff > drop rate nerf > ignore > oathplate nerf
dull beacon
Given just how much of a pain in the ass torva is to get i could reasonably agree to making it get a bit more damage to keep up
People have been crying for +2strength since those delve boots became a topic
Just throw torva a bone, let it be worth the time it takes to grind
prime thistle
im ngl in a lot of ways
its not even a real problem
they can just make stab and crush content and weapons and oathplate will solve itself
swift lava
they can just make stab and crush content and weapons and oathplate will solve i...
These feeds into scythe complainers tho, so just moves from one problem to another 😭
prime thistle
yeah but its that or just accept melee is scythe only forever
which is a way bigger problem in the end
swift lava
And that’s either complaining that scythe isn’t being useful for new relevant content or complaining that scythe shouldn’t be good for crush
prime thistle
people are just seeking some kind of immediate resolution to oathplate but if we get it
it'll probably just mean oathplate sucks in the future
the only reason its so good atm is because jagex was playing favorites with scythe
in no particular order they should make a crush weapon thats good delete crush from scythe create stab and crush content
and torva would be the default while also sharing some space with inquisitor
people are just kind of freaking out for the moment because jagex went full brain off made nothing but slash content and then for some reason
topped that off with slash armor lol
so of course people see that as their primary set atm
dull beacon
Slash armor that's less cancer to grind on an iron
Even if every future boss is stab or crush, slash armor is still strong enough for what it does currently
prime thistle
Yeah its supposed to be good when you want slash
Youre not supposed to wear torva in that situation that's why it exists
They just forgot to actually make the other combat styles relevant
dull beacon
It doesn't help that they were gonna release a crush demonbane weapon
prime thistle
Realistically they should've done all of that other stuff before ever making oathplate
dull beacon
And that got shot from the sky
swift lava
Crush demonbane prob would’ve passed if their messaging wasn’t god awful lmao
prime thistle
Since the order of updates here makes no sense how theyre currently rolling
swift lava
“Everyone’s been asking for it, so we’re filling in the crush-demonbane niche with this exciting new weapon”
Who tf asked for that niche to be filled
prime thistle
I just dunno why they trap themselves
Like they created the entire oathplate situation as it is without a single break
Over the course of like a year
dull beacon
Both delve and yama have been weird
prime thistle
Like Jesus lol they buffed scythe made all scythe content then they were like
Im finna drop a slash armor set too
Like damn take a break for a second and fill in the rest of melee and maybe you dont create this problem
swift lava
My perspective is that even in slash-dominated melee content, if the difference between oath and Torva was 2 max hits base, then there would be almost equal places where you’d use each set
Which is something they should’ve thought about when designing and proposing the set
Bc that’s either accomplished by giving the helm the same str as inq helm, or giving Torva more str
prime thistle
Idk if they really would want to make that set
In theory you could tune them both so well that you cant even tell which one is better when slashing content
Idk if that's very satisfying for the people playing juggling around gear sets and giving them extremely minor differences
Usually niche design works because niches feel good and are significantly better in their niche
Obviously they kinda blew it by making the niche the default state of the game though
That just all loops back around into the insane saga of updates though
Buffs content changes content additions and then just adding a whole armor set on top is just the most hilarious amount of overkill ever
Maybe they can get a scythe piety next to round it all out
5% extra when using a scythe
swift lava
Yeah from on overview, they’ve definitely locked themselves in by putting all their eggs in one basket
Which is ironic bc they sort of did that with tbow, and then slowly worked their way out of it to a degree, and then repeated with a shadow and now it’s coming to light that it’s also been the same with scythe
Or not even scythe, but slash. Scythe is just at the head
prime thistle
Yeah the rest of melee just has like
Real alternatives like a blade doesn't just automatically delete the need for other weapons
Scythe though kinda just got crowned the default melee weapon unless they make a very very specific kind of boss in a couple of ways
Shadow has that issue but its because other items dont exist
Melee just has a terrible selection
sudden falcon
Real alternatives like a blade doesn't just automatically delete the need for ot...
mace was basically dead content until inq gave it a set bonus + rancour happened to hit that threshold where it's cheaper/equal to scythe at nm
opal kite
Realisticy they should nerf Piety & Rigour's 23% str to 20% then retroactively add +1 str bonus and +1 range str bonus to all top and legs accordingly if they deserve it.
Armadyl can even get some range str bonus then too
swift lava
Crazy take ngl. Not only would that probably just be an outright nerf across the board for melee in particular, but also with a different multiplier, you adjust the breakpoints for str bonuses to translate to max hits
The whole “4 str = max hit”
- Only applies, consistently, at 99str with piety and a super combat (Ovl is close enough in bonus that it usually applies here too)
- Isn’t even true. Because even in an isolated space (scb, 99str, piety), there are rounding points that don’t fall in line with this. We just recently passed a breakpoint where it isn’t, being the gap from 49 to 50 max (135 and 140 str bonus respectively, with piety and scb)
- Other multipliers like salve, void, etc also impacted in a similar vein where void is more negatively impacted because it doesn’t have a str bonus
Only time it really makes sense to redistribute where power comes from, while having the same net impact, is if you both agree that current power is in a good place and that future power would not be
Which would be a tough argument to make
sudden falcon
Nerfing piety when melee is still the weakest and more restricted style is nonsense lmao.
opal kite
Not crazy at all when piety is literally so over powered and broken when it's free, it's the biggest upgrade by far
Gives them more space to add better prayers too that are actually end game rewards yeH
+1 was an example they can obvs give more strength bonus if needed it just balance things better
Example:
Make piety 20%/20%/25%
Then give Elite Void Melee 2.5% extra dmg
Torva helm +9 str
Torva body +7 str
Torva legs +6 str
Wouldn't that make things similar but better for balancing.
Wouldn't take long to actually sit down and do numbers @swift lava obvs things aren't going to be the same and perfect but that's fine
opal kite
Super piety? You mean a future turmoil that's could cost slot and require 90+ prayer? Very reasonable
opal kite
That's fair they can do what they like haha I personally just think it's better for the game if they give piety a tiny nerf then give the spare strength bonus to body's and legs we have in the game.
Tassets being +2 str whilst we have rings and gloves that give +12 always felt wrong
sudden falcon
Tassets being +2 str whilst we have rings and gloves that give +12 always felt w...
That’s why we wanted Torva to get more str
Having 4-5 pieces at +4 is so dumb
Melee armor in general having no accuracy is ass too
opal kite
Exactly so just take some from piety and disrepute them to the body's and legs.
Similar to what they did with the occult
sudden falcon
occult was semi-warranted because shadow was way too toxic with it
Piety to melee/scythe was nowhere near occult to shadow imo
opal kite
Would also incentivise more risk in PvP and avoids the crazy max hits you can get from piety alone
waxen flame
to balance things out, you should lose any prayers you've unlocked if you die to another player in the wilderness
you can go back to the knights training grounds to get piety again each death
swift lava
Wouldn't take long to actually sit down and do numbers <@391752500426047490> ob...
You’re still heavily nerfing everything that’s not bis, but also this doesn’t necessarily address the point I was trying to make. With lower multiplier, you’re going to need greater str bonus between maxes on avg
But also, and mainly, the only reason you’d take an approach like this is if you think current melee is appropriately strong and future state melee is not
What’s the difference between nerfing piety, buffing str bonus, and adding a stronger prayer vs keeping piety and giving a stronger (but not needing to be as strong as otherwise) prayer without touching str bonus
Kieren already said that they’re likely to add single, higher level prayers as opposed to going down the path of alignments
Wouldn’t be surprised to see new bis melee, range, and magic prayers with raids 4
And I’d also love to see Gambit on that list
swift lava
Exactly so just take some from piety and disrepute them to the body's and legs. ...
Magic gear scales differently though, since it’s uniform % across the board. Only exception is shadow 3x your magic equipment % but not your prayer %
Eg. 4% prayer is the same as 2% top and bottom
But 4% str is not the same as whatever top-end equivalent melee max hit str bonus comes out to be
Bc then you mess with all lesser and future thresholds
If melee dmg bonus was % based, it’d be a lot easier to redistribute things like that without causing potential issues. But there’s also no real issue with the state of melee currently. Piety being a quest reward, sure you can maybe make that argument, but even if it were moved to a raid drop, it wouldn’t change the landscape of melee combat at all
Unless the content it came from is somehow inaccessible to any accounts able to use it currently
opal kite
piety should be nerfed regardless because of how free and early you get it in the game with only 70 prayer, its too strong for it's place. giving str bonus to all armours tops and legs with this nerfs keeps it more even that is all and stops the hinderenace of future end game prayers whilst also stoping the crazy free max hits in PvP with minimal gear that piety does.
swift lava
If they release a replacement prayer in the future, it’s just going to be the same problem as far as PvP goes
Saying it’s too strong for where it comes from is fair tho
In general tho, I don’t think its too strong to where it needs to be replaced
There’s also a counter argument that piety requires some game interaction and skilling via quests
Where you can just buy rigour with none of that
opal kite
its not because the upgraded prayer will cost more and require a higher prayer level and can also add counter prayers at the same time
opal kite
also 95prayer costs alot of bones
swift lava
Rigour costs me just as much to use as steel skin
ATP why not just release a t95 prayer
Without touching other prayers
opal kite
the whole point is if we want to give more torva strength bonus we can do that by tweaking piety and giving it a little nerf to compensate, just generally gives more room to work with then if torva body is +8
alot of armous currently are +2-+4 strength bonus all stacked up on each tother, fighter torso, moons armour, bandos, inq, oathplate, obsidian
swift lava
Ye ig what I’m trying to say really is that I don’t need there needs to be compensation for Torva to get 2 more total str bonus
opal kite
2 is just an example, nerf peity more and make torva body +12 im not saying numbers exactly
what ever lines up the best
if 23% piety to 20% piety is around 6 str bonus then disresupte it evenly
swift lava
Ye I get what you mean. I meant more so leaving piety as is and giving Torva 2 str bonus, with whatever distribution that ends up being (unless it’s 2 more on helm lol) isn’t an issue bc it would put the Torva set roughly on equal footing with the full oath set
Either way tho, I’d love to see 27% str 28% attack prayer
27% range str 28% range attack
And 8% magic dmg 28% attack prayers as raid 4 rewards
Or something along those lines 
opal kite
thats the problem 27% range would break the game lmao
swift lava
To push higher prayer progression
Ehh I think that’s a bit dramatic personally, bc it’s relative to other combat styles at the end of the day
For the most part
So if all increase proportially, as long as it’s not something like 35% lol, it’s generally ok
opal kite
if they added a prayer that was base 23% like rigour that ramped up to 27% after say 10 ticks it would work
would stop flicking and help with balance
swift lava
Not to say that melee and range str% are 1:1 per se
But just generally that as long as it’s proportional, it’s usually ok
opal kite
ye ofc im just giving ball park figoures
just think in general nerfing rig/piety a tiny bit to 20% would give more room to spread str bonus across armours and give more room for future stronger prayers
a 27% str prayer currently makes the AGS hit like 92 in max
opal kite
barely,
it happened with magic
you could just main occult and dks in tank gear
itll all be marginal and better for the long term health
sudden falcon
Hear me out, delete chivalry, move piety down to 60 prayer
and then add piety 2.0 to cox
or tob
since tob is lacking as fuck nowaday
opal kite
wouldnt that just be simplier to delete piety and re add it to raids lol
sudden falcon
people hate losing damage
can't outright remove it
especially not when melee is already inherently weak
opal kite
yeah people are gready, got use to the over powered piety
sudden falcon
wouldnt say piety is overpowered by any means tbh
opal kite
armadyl would feel more of an upgrade if it had +range str bonus too which this system could do
opal kite
wouldnt say piety is overpowered by any means tbh
it really is, go back to ultimate strength and you'll see, you lose like 5 max hits on the void waker just from a free prayer
going from naked skin to full torva doesnt even give 5 max hits i swear
sudden falcon
so you just happened chose the weapon that happens to have a 1.5x max hit scaling
pretty sure EE -> Rigour is even more than ulti strength -> Piety
opal kite
AGS scales just as much
opal kite
ye thats why they should be 20% imo, rigour was only given 23% cause piety already was given 23% to make them look the same
sudden falcon
do you know the difference between ranged/melee
and why ranged should never be more base dps than melee
quasi ether
Its not marginal when people are forced to bring even more swaps
quasi ether
Release better prayers but we shouldnt be nerfing current ones
opal kite
im not saying nerf piety and dont nerf rigour, do both obvs
opal kite
i think you have just got use to them they are by far the biggest upgrade you can get in pvp and in pvm probably just short of mega rares
sudden falcon
Yes, prayers have always been a big step up
try no offensive prayers vs offensive prayers dps difference
opal kite
ye and they shouldnt be as theres 0 risk involved with them and also they only have 70prayer req the power level of them should be 85+ prayer like mega rares
the difference between 23% and 15% is huge enough nevermind 0 prayers
sudden falcon
again, you don't need to nerf them because shit like Eagle Eye vs no prayer is larger than some megas over 2nd bis
swift lava
it really is, go back to ultimate strength and you'll see, you lose like 5 max h...
Should compare it to chivalry since it’s the next best thing
Similarly rigour vs titans prayer
opal kite
again, you don't need to nerf them because shit like Eagle Eye vs no prayer is l...
but thats different and way to late from that as using no prayers is impossible when you unlock the 15% and the much needed overhead protect prayers after like 100 dragon bones
sudden falcon
it's only "different" because you pvp and you want ti easily accessible 
could make all the prayers 70 defense + 70-99 prayer requirement and it justifies it right away
opal kite
the differnt from ult str then chiv is 1 max hit then it jumps to like 4 max hits with piety
sudden falcon
but you wouldn't like that
sudden falcon
Should compare it to chivalry since it’s the next best thing
Piety could be 50% strength and melee still wouldn't be better than shadow/tbow
that's how underwhelming that shit is if you can't reduce to 0 
melee is so easy to balance against it's ridiculous
opal kite
i dont want anything easy accesible wdym, pvpers would do 100 infernos if it ment they could get the upper hand its not about that
sudden falcon
+16 str infernal cape to justify the difficulty 
opal kite
nerfing piety to 20% is actually better for people who are against pvp as less max hits in no risk gear
sudden falcon
and maxed combat requirement to use infernal cape
opal kite
the fact is the power level of piety/rig is around 85 prayer imo
swift lava
Piety as a prayer needs to be nerfed = disagree
Piety is too easy to get in account progression = sure
sudden falcon
i'd rather they raise the prayer level than nerf it lol
opal kite
Piety could be 50% strength and melee still wouldn't be better than shadow/tbow
thats just because the way they made shadow/tbow, if they nerfed piety and give scythe +25str and +100slash it would be the same lol
sudden falcon
piety is nowhere near rig level and that's largely because of the ranged advantage
swift lava
But on another hand, it’s faster to get 95 prayer than it is to get and complete all quest and stat requirements for piety
The only time it’s not faster or easier to get a higher prayer level than it is to get piety is when you’re an Ironman
opal kite
getting off topic now but its more the fact the prayers require 0 risk and this allows more str bonus for armour which will increase risk if you want to get the same dps back
swift lava
Yeah but if you’re just going to add a piety equivalent or better at a higher prayer level later, then you’re back in the same spot lol
Prayer will always be zero risk in PvP
opal kite
not exactly cause thats in the future and could work way different, 95prayer, ramp up effects even could have charges if they really want to add risk to it
quasi ether
This prayer stuff is making something out of nothing
sudden falcon
Yeah, like, it makes to talk about buffing Torva because of Oathplate being too close 
.
Taking strength away from Piety and handing it to Torva doesn't make sense because it doesn't solve the issue at hand
opal kite
if the new future bis prayer was 25% str and required 95prayer, whilst ramping up to 28% after say 12 ticks it would help balance because youd lose dps in your other style temp ramping it up, and they can further add risk by adding charges and extra gp costs there no limit to it, but thats all for the future and this is a tiny example
would make pvm more strategic too as wouldnt want to flick or change styles for maxium dps so adds more elements
opal kite
Taking strength away from Piety and handing it to Torva doesn't make sense becau...
i mean you would add it to all armours that have a decent cost to them but you would balance it out to make sure torva is a good chunk ahead, just gives more room in general for spots at the lower end aswell
moons armour giving the same strength bonus as inq and bandos and oathplate like what
sudden falcon
If the goal is to make armors individually worth it, then taking it away from a prayer when the style or prayer isn't even disproportionate to begin with isn't going to solve the issue.
I still think Torva Body should be +8 and Oathplate could be 5-6
Moons shouldn't have been +4/+2
sudden falcon
sure, except ranged is in a much better spot regardless
opal kite
black d hide top is 5k and gives only like 3 range attack bonus less them armadyl top 50m wdym lol
thats a pair of snakeskin boots
sudden falcon
even without slapping on +1 ranged str to arma, ranged as a whole style has always been viable since blowpipe
opal kite
difference
armadyl would feel like an upgrade tho if it had range str on it
it might be more then +1, just what ever the difference is when reducing rig from 23% to 20%
swift lava
Asking for prayers that are specifically inline with PvP and at the same time suggesting to effectively nerf or complicate pvm in some way is never gonna go over well
Would have more success asking nerf piety in PvP
opal kite
not really a nerf more of a adjust, its a bigger nerf to pvp actually
its an adjustment for PvM and a nerf for PvP, there okay on board now
swift lava
It’s a nerf bc it requires more switches for the same result
Just have to accept that it’s difficult to have something that is equally functional for both
opal kite
which is much needed like the occult did
swift lava
Easiest way to move forward is just have PvP specific adjustments or rules
Bp being 3t etc
swift lava
Certainly isn’t needed
opal kite
thats simple very straight foreward just like the maigc rebalance
swift lava
It’s not simple bc then you have to look at literally every piece of melee gear, require more switches at content where you may otherwise not have for the same result, and adjust the expected “4 str = 1 max” concept (which again, isn’t always true anyways lol)
All for what?
opal kite
most people woont even realise the difference only dps calc math nerds
swift lava
What is the end result of that work
opal kite
the same as the casual andys still using there abby whips on gargoyles when they made them more weak to crush and more resistant to slash
swift lava
If you want something more balanced for PvP, it’s significantly easier and more appropriate to adjust how it works in PvP rather than adjust literally everything else related to that combat style in addition to that prayer
opal kite
It’s not simple bc then you have to look at literally every piece of melee gear,...
its never going to be a perfect exact same dps, but the magic rebalance wasnt just have to get it as close as possible
opal kite
If you want something more balanced for PvP, it’s significantly easier and more ...
its not everything tho, the magic rebalance and monster weakness rebalance was a much bigger job then literally just changing the numbers on piety and then about 5 pieces of melee gear
swift lava
its not everything tho, the magic rebalance and monster weakness rebalance was a...
Armors aren’t the only items you’d look at for redistributing those bonuses
opal kite
Armors aren’t the only items you’d look at for redistributing those bonuses
they are, all the available left over str bonus available would go solely on the armours
can eve give justicar +1 str bonus if theres room
sudden falcon
melee needs an outright buff before any talk about redistribution, which is what we're trying to say
opal kite
can get redistributed then buffed with an actual end game melee prayers not 18year old piety bis, oldest bis in the game
sudden falcon
????
frail hazel
opal kite
i mean you could nerf piety and give torva +15 str bonus if melee really needs a buff lmao
swift lava
they are, all the available left over str bonus available would go solely on the...
No, it absolutely wouldn’t lol. Requiring more switches for the same result otherwise being a direct nerf means much of that would likely go into weapons
opal kite
theres many ways to go about things if you think melee needs a buff
swift lava
I don’t think melee needs a buff
opal kite
but taking off the current bis prayers is needed anyway imo
swift lava
I think oath is a replacement for Torva rather than a sidegrade
And if there is a separation of 2 maxed (base) between oath and Torva, then there are equal places where you’d use both
Aka oath is a sidegrade
opal kite
No, it absolutely wouldn’t lol. Requiring more switches for the same result othe...
like i said it happened to magic we got use to it, if you dont want to do full switches youll lose a tiny bit, very marginal that unless you are a tick dps calc nerd you wont even notice, you lose more dps typing in discord then ever playing the game
swift lava
Again, you’re asking for a huge undertaking for the end result of piety being less strong in PvP
opal kite
and also giving armours more value
swift lava
Armors values won’t change when max hits are relatively the same, so that comes across as not entirely genuine
opal kite
the value of actually going out your way to get them would be, and actually using them would be
for irons and pvp
swift lava
It wouldn’t be any different for irons bc the max hits would be relatively the same
opal kite
irons dont go out there way to get armadyl but if armadyl had some range str bonus they more likely would
do irons even go to bandos anymore, no reason to now apart from bgs
they only would now after they already have masori and torva
quasi ether
They'd still go to toa first because crystal armor carries for a long time
opal kite
either way it still helps bring some gap there instead of a 100% skip giving value to armours more
quasi ether
It has value to fortify masori
swift lava
We’re talking about piety lol
opal kite
It has value to fortify masori
yeah which you would get after already owning masori
opal kite
We’re talking about piety lol
im talking about both, same can be said if we gave bcp +6 and torva platebody +10
would you then actually go for them over sticking at +4moons and fighter torso
swift lava
im talking about both, same can be said if we gave bcp +6 and torva platebody +1...
“It wouldn’t be any different for irons bc the max hits would be relatively the same”
Value doesn’t change
opal kite
just alot more space to work with, kills 2 birds with 1 stone nerfing piety and buffing armours, anyway going bed gn lol
swift lava
Melee max hits stay the same, relative
End result is piety nerf in PvP with zero benefit to progression outside of PvP and the added drawback of needing additional switches for the same result
How is that a more appropriate solution than just nerfing piety in PvP
Which really seems to be what you’re asking for
opal kite
piety is already too strong in progression anyway imo its like going from a rune scim to a whip for free. these changes would all be very marginal and not noticeable to the average public and the dps loss or changes would be so minor that like i said you lose more of that just not playing the game and typing on disc instead, but overall itll make you need to risk more in pvp to get the same max hits and also gives more space in progression for armours spreading out the strength bonus accordling.
it also future proofs true end game prayers as not as limited in what can give them as currently piety is bordering the limit
keen cedar
piety is already too strong in progression anyway imo its like going from a rune...
isn't 70 prayer literally more expensive than a whip
if you use dragon bones i think it's over 10 mil
swift lava
Piety isn’t too strong. Where it comes from is perhaps too easy, sure.
But it’s also easier and faster to get 95 prayer than it is to get all the quest requirements and complete all the quests for piety
So changing that does nothing but move the goalpost at the perceived benefit to PvP with no benefit elsewhere
opal kite
piety is too strong in the sense its the last unlock so soon, so quick and so good
if you got a scythe after killing your first sarachnis then what would u do with weapons
opal kite
So changing that does nothing but move the goalpost at the perceived benefit to ...
the benefit is giving more armours value, there's no benefit in pvp as now you need more risk
sudden falcon
nerfing piety isnt the solution, locking it behind a scroll works
sudden falcon
but what you keep not understanding is that
melee doesn't have hyperscaling weapons
ranged benefits from +1/2/3
shadow certianly does from 1/2/3%
opal kite
thats on jagex for making the t bow and shadow the way they are
sudden falcon
3-5 gear sitting at +4 str is a problem BECAUSE torva is only +6 str
ur asking for redistribution of relatively modular units that are also small and can't be made smaller
opal kite
they could easily just full change the scythe to make them the same but thats completely different
sudden falcon
all because you don't like it in pvp
there's a reason why melee is basically spec-only in wildy and it's basic design flaw
opal kite
nox halberd slaps wdym
sudden falcon
screaming redistribute from piety to armor doesn't fucking fix the problem
there's a reason why nox is good. nox is a ranged melee weapon 
the need to be in melee distance to actually hit is just one reason why melee is so ass
leagues 4 proved this
and going back to oathplate vs torva
torva needs str bonus because oathplate is too damn close with its 38 accuracy
loud flicker
Sidegrade 
opal kite
redistribute from piety to armour does fix the problem tho thats the point lol, it gives more room to work with, these modular units, allows torva platebody to be more then +6 str bonus lmao it could be +12 bonus if done right which then gives room further down for the shitter armours to actually have str bonus
sudden falcon
you know what this logic reminds me of?
screaming redistribute occult before shadow was a thing.
almost no one was saying this because the style was too weak.
sudden falcon
redistribute from piety to armour does fix the problem tho thats the point lol, ...
No it doesnt lmao
the entire problem is that the ceiling is only +6 for body
leave piety alone and just buff it
swift lava
the benefit is giving more armours value, there's no benefit in pvp as now you n...
It doesn’t give the armors more value when the max hits relative to the sets you wear remains the same
Legit does 0
sudden falcon
if you did pvm, you'd know that melee is basically needed to be catered to in order for it ot be viable 
it's so weak
outside of situations that you straight up reduce to 0 defense
opal kite
torva legs are literally +4, thats a crazy ceiling. how do we fix that ceiling without just giving a free buff? we take a tiny bit from piety and give torva legs the str bonus duh, torva legs could be +10 if the numbers line up
swift lava
torva legs are literally +4, thats a crazy ceiling. how do we fix that ceiling w...
So effectively… in the end… the max hits remain the same
Aka value is unchanged
opal kite
if the ceiling is higher its easier to make torva noticeable better then oathplate.
sudden falcon
it's this idiotic logic why people just say fuck pvp
sudden falcon
you don't even solve the problem with redistribution because melee was never that strong to begin with
occult redistribution was literally only because of shadow.
swift lava
if the ceiling is higher its easier to make torva noticeable better then oathpla...
This is achieved just by having a difference of 2 base max hits between the sets. It’s as simple as that
How you achieve that doesn’t matter
As long as that’s the end result
opal kite
or they could do both, instead of just giving torva a buff then leaving the ceiling tiny else where
bandos should be better then moons armour
sudden falcon
yes, and you can do that WITHOUT nerfing fucking piety
swift lava
^
sudden falcon
Jagex literally created the fucking problem
why nerf piety when the problem with literal fucking blood moon is that it's 90% of bcp while having a really strong passive
opal kite
well its too late for that, id rather they have the ability to actually give decent str bonus numbers on armours like they have on rings, amulets and gloves
swift lava
It’s not too late for that lol
It’s too late for that but not too late to nerf piety is crazy work
sudden falcon
it's like im talking to someone who literally has 2 years of play time
opal kite
??
sudden falcon
they nerfed blowpipe 5 years AFTER release
swift lava
Yeah
sudden falcon
they nerfed occult 10 years after release
swift lava
You can make it 2 and 1 or 3 and 1
sudden falcon
you cant get any lower with moons armours
yes you can
+2/+1
and did you know that it doesn't actually affect blood moon marachas that badly?
loud flicker
Idk how they released midgame armour that's faster to get than bandos
when bandos and fighter torso both exist
opal kite
thats a completely different discussion to randomly nerfing moons armour and keeping the modular units so small when we have things like rings and gloves and amulets with +12
loud flicker
It's not a problem they can't solve. They're fixing stuff after 3+ years with the current summer sweep up
sudden falcon
you're acting like blood moon doesn't have a passive that amps up its damage as well
sudden falcon
thats a completely different discussion to randomly nerfing moons armour and kee...
and none of those are problematic because they don't cause what occult did with shadow
loud flicker
They can change the prayers effectiveness soley in the wildy if that's your concern
sudden falcon
please fucking understand this
loud flicker
occult was so dumb
opal kite
no i just hate how bandos is incredibley bad when piety is incredibly strong
sudden falcon
so fucking buff bandos
loud flicker
bandos has always been bad lmao
opal kite
a strength amulet is 5x better then tassets like what
sudden falcon
you dense mfer 
loud flicker
melee armor in general has always been shit
loud flicker
torva literally does fuck all for dps
sudden falcon
and instead of abandoning the fucking piety hate bias, you won't just say buff them appropriately
loud flicker
but that's an issue they compounded on
sudden falcon
in terms of bodies, bcp should be +4, oath should be +5-6, torva should be +8
opal kite
melee armor in general has always been shit
exactly! thats my point lmao redisruption is the way! take from the place that has the more free power which is piety duh.
loud flicker
They can scale bm to +1, torso to +2, bcp can remain as is, if you want some progression
sudden falcon
exactly! thats my point lmao redisruption is the way! take from the place that h...
redistribute fucking what
loud flicker
Touching prayers doesn't solve the armor thing
loud flicker
Then you're gonna wait a few more years for melee maxes to bring it up to the same point
opal kite
yall so defencive over a free upgrade lmao
loud flicker
Which is backwards
sudden falcon
god, im normally pro pvp, but some mfers are just dumb af
loud flicker
It's moreso that your logic just lowers dps for what
sudden falcon
what free upgrade??
sudden falcon
i've already said lock piety away behind a prayer scroll
opal kite
you are literally dumb wanting to keep 98% of the power coming from piety and 2% coming from tassets
loud flicker
prayers are a different thing
opal kite
theres no dps lowering at all;
loud flicker
Prayers could change if they introduce something new
But armor is an armor issue
They aren't going to touch prayers till they themselves think of how to expand the prayerbook
opal kite
we fixed the magic armour issue by taking damage from the occult.
we fix the melee armour issue by taking damage from piety
loud flicker
they were going to do it via god alignments or whatever
sudden falcon
magic literally didn't have an issue until shadow
swift lava
You can just… buff melee armor without touching piety
loud flicker
occult is gear
swift lava
And it’d be perfectly fine
opal kite
its barely even a change aswell its like 3%
swift lava
💀
sudden falcon
occult was fine for 8 years until shadow came out
loud flicker
they changed gear to affect gear
opal kite
y'all are going crazy
loud flicker
mate
sudden falcon
and you dont have a brain
loud flicker
they changed a to a for magic, you're suggesting a to b
opal kite
You can just… buff melee armor without touching piety
so we let the AGS HIT 95 max hit ye?
sudden falcon
yes
loud flicker
for melee armor
sudden falcon
why the fuck not
who the fuck is going to bring 1.2b in melee to wildy
and if they do
let them hit 95
ridiculous
opal kite
it wont 1.2b after future prayers tho thats the thing
swift lava
Add 1 str to each Torva piece
Buff inq helm to be 6 str and remove negs
Remove 1 str from moons top and bottom
loud flicker
Idc if piety gets changed, but I'd want an update to prayer as a whole