#Royal Titans - First Look & Rewards

1854 messages · Page 2 of 2 (latest)

old pine
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so thats melee muspah form

prisma basalt
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Accuracy is important one above zerker builds, at the very lowest it’s kinda arguable for zerker
It doesn’t matter on pures

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“For pvp”

old pine
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we almost made it to .1 dps that time

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lmao im ngl they're crazy for making this happen more with the new prayer

cold timber
old pine
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i dont really see why they would make a move to make augury mostly relevant for pvp

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like

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i guess if they just want you to have more prayer to afk through in pvm

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and to not need an arcane prayer scroll thats good

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but like

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why would they want that

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lmao

prisma basalt
cold timber
old pine
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idk if they're even going to reply to it

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everyone just talks about chivalry and the poll questions

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for all we know they don't even realize this is what it is lol

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nobody else seems to really notice

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the obvious play for them to avoid this was

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to make augury not shit 4% is a hilarious number to pick for your top end mage prayer

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especially considering that bonus does not triple with shadow

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so its a safe place to put some strength

cold timber
old pine
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but they went with 4% and 2% making sure that between 45 and 77 there was effectively zero design space for mage prayer

prisma basalt
cold timber
old pine
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i mean yeah theres definitely room

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you could go up 2% every 5 levels to 99 from augury and it wouldn't break the game

cold timber
old pine
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its not that 1% isn't worth mentioning

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its that if the dps difference is 1% but the prayer drain rate difference is 100%

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the lower level prayer is very arguably just better

prisma basalt
cold timber
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ohh well I do agree that magic prayers doesn't seem as powerful as a boost as offensive melee or ranged does, but oh well we are going far off topic here since this is discussing a larger magic rebalancing

old pine
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the obvious play here without changing anyones dps

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is to just make augury the same drain rate

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then you use augury if you have it

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no questions asked

cold timber
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same goes for pure versus zerker

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progression, see?

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food chain

old pine
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yeah but you're breaking progression in the other part of the game

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to do this

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our level 63 prayer is now better than our level 77 one

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also much easier to obtain

cold timber
old pine
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yeah because its solving a specific problem thats afaik unique to augury and the other prayer

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if they're gonna make almost the whole difference that actually does anything with the prayer a mostly useless stat for the majority of the game

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somethings gotta give

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augury either needs a dps boost or to have its drain rate lowered

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because they're at the point of making it worse than the alternative

cold timber
old pine
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you're not following

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it has a downside

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the prayer drain is 100% larger for augury

cold timber
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more drain if you're not flicking yes

old pine
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its not all buff

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and the dps is so close

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you can easily call it worse

cold timber
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I understand what you mean, but it's wrong to call it worse, though in practice one can see how mystic vigour would be a better choice

old pine
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its not interesting gameplay or anything to say "let me just use this prayer that does the same thing for me because its half off"

cold timber
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then again there is a balance to be struck tho, I think it should be a decent option for lower drain, but shouldn't be close to identical dps of course

old pine
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if they actually did something different from each other it could be seen as variety for example

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but thats not how it is

cold timber
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then again that's magic issue again, which is a larger rework, not an issue with these prayers

old pine
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i dont really think the drain rate decision is a good one

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because the right answer, and this is why their dt2 prayers had lower drain rates, is to flick

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not to use a different prayer

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they talked about it a lot when they were designing ruinous prayers

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how they couldn't just keep going up on drain rates because players would just feel the need to flick instead of change their inventory setups

still plover
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i guess this kinda breaks down when it comes to irons who have to grind everything out themselves, but i as a main enjoy to have reasons to do a variety of stuff for unlocks

old pine
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yeah but in this case you're talking about torso being better than torva

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for an accurate comparison

cold timber
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Okay, I feel like this has gone too far off the relevant topic of discussion at this point. The takeaway here is that mystic vigour's dps difference is too low considering it has half the drainrate so it's often a better option (which is already the case for mystic might, so nothing really new here, but makes it even more of a weird progression, I think perhaps augury could have higher % damage, but I'd invite you to make a post in game-suggestions on this topic and lay it out for discussion there) 🙂

still plover
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for like 8+ years it was torso vs bandos

old pine
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yeah but at least in that scenario bandos was just better if more expensive gp wise

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your bandos didn't eat more food in your inventory

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or anything like that

cold timber
old pine
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there was no cost associated with using either in that context

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if anything

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the torso consumed more of your supplies

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so at the end of the day your bcp was low priority gear wise

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but it was never actually worse

still plover
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i guess, but it still has -8% accuracy and -1% damage, which could be important in some places

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its not objectively better or anything

old pine
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idk i think if you find a situation where you dont take damage and the difference in dps is less than two game ticks

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it would be pretty hard to say augury is better

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and thats pretty likely to happen in pvm

still plover
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its just that the shadow is incredibly accurate really, with other mage weapons i could see it being a difference maker

old pine
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even for those the accuracy is really not a factor

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its always about the max hit or not

still plover
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if youre for example doing zulrah, its probably much more worth to be using augury

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since you often noodle even with sang

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if you dont have a saturated heart, it keeps you boosted for longer too

old pine
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like this is sang for augury vs mystic might

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so here the dps difference is larger but

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put a prayer between those two

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which is what the new prayer would be

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and you're pretty much back with the same problem of like

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why would i even do this for dps

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thats the magma phase btw for zulrah

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the range phase is a much smaller gap more like .06ish because it has - magic def

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this is one of those scenarios where you can see the new prayer actually expanding on the areas where you dont care about augury lol

cold timber
old pine
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also worth noting that zulrah is capped at a max hit of 50

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so it gets worse with better weapons or higher max hits

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shortly after that sang example

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since thats hitting a 47

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yeah i think thats obviously worse

cold timber
old pine
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they're not prayers for different situations they're the same prayer with irrelevant differences for almost all of pvm

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so you just click the one that drains less prayer

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theres no reason for that kind of variety at all

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they should just make a prayer that does something else at 63 if they want things to be like

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interesting or different

cold timber
# old pine theres no reason for that kind of variety at all

But you do realize that the different prayers with different drain rates are a part of balancing and how we use the prayerbook and prayer-choices, yes? Like when I'm afking vyres I'm using the 10% strength prayer because of the low drain and that the 15% has a significantly higher drain for not that much more dps

old pine
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like come on lol "oh boy i cant wait to lose twice as many prayer points while maging once i make it to level 77"

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honestly outside of augury i dont see that as a valid gameplay decision pretty much anywhere

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i understand it but

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i care about active gameplay and the real result of that is flicking prayers more to make up for drain

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not opting for another prayer

cold timber
old pine
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you dont need a complete max setup

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theres just no reason to go through and try every combination of gear in the game to identify each and every one of them where this happens

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max is just easy because its an obvious standard to compare

still plover
# old pine

i think that if it lowers it from .25 to like .15 dps difference in most cases thats totally fine, that's just me though

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mostly because augury hasnt always been all that strong, and it incentivizes you to grind it out yourself

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the gap is also probably bigger in a mid game setup and levels

cold timber
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wouldn't that solve it tho? If it's always 1 higher max hit?

old pine
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but to get an idea of how much magic accuracy doesn't matter for stuff where people like to use magic

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the actual accuracy of your spells drops by 1.35% on zulrah range phase

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if you just unequip your ancestral top entirely

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yeah if it were 1 max hit that would fix it

cold timber
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Took a while to get through to that one ey xD

old pine
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i mean thats kinda where we started

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the gap between the prayers is just too small

still plover
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i dont think the solution is to nerf mystic might

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just to replace it with whatever this item is

old pine
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i mean the fix is to make augury a big enough number that you can put something below it

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that also gives you a max hit if you turn it on

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and have augury still give you more damage

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they really just messed up by starting augury so low at 4%

still plover
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anything that buffs augury would buff shadow though, which wouldnt be good

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i dont think shadow is in a place where it needs a buff

old pine
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thats the best part

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shadow does not triple the bonus it gets from prayers specifically

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so you're not adding more than a max hit or whatever to shadow which is negligible

cold timber
old pine
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offhands and the magic prayers are the safest places to avoid shadow power creep

still plover
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i just dont think we need to jump through all these hoops to keep the arcane prayer scroll above 1m for another 6 months

old pine
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conceptually jagex should be asking why arcane prayer scrolls are 1m to begin with

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and a lot of this contributes to that

still plover
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dexterous prayer scrolls, the literal most op item in the game is also 12 mil though

old pine
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yeah thats kind of the perfect example though

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its showing how much of a difference an item actually being good makes

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identical drop rates etc

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as for why dex is as low as it is compared to where it usually is

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thats probably the big nono topic where you get banned if they read you out of context

still plover
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or just give mid game players an unlock that finally doesnt last them about 5 minutes in mainscape

old pine
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i mean they missed on that here but thats not fixable at lower levels

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as a main if you're 63 prayer you're like a couple hours from 77 or whatever example

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probably take you longer to get the drop than it would be to buy a scroll and bones then level up

still plover
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which is why its nice that it actually has late game uses

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like the torso and ancient sceptre

old pine
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if they want that i feel like they should've gone the other way and made something respectable to do for a higher level prayer

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kinda hard to design prayers when you know if you're not a restricted account you can basically be whatever level you want to be within reason in no time

still plover
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if it was insanely hard then it wouldnt be mid game would it

old pine
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yeah but why do you need a mid game prayer to replace your mid game prayer

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it doesn't really add up the cox prayers are already available

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the range prayer for example actually fits into iron progression nicely since you can get it earlier but its not as good as a dex

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so it flows from one to the other

still plover
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most people arent efficiency brained or want something fun to do inbetween skilling or training

old pine
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yeah thats fine im not saying delete the boss

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im just saying theres no reason to replace raid prayers with a fire giant boss for level 90s that already have the raid prayer

still plover
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if it was just your average mid game boss like hueycoatl the items wouldnt be worth grinding after week 1

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unless youre like an iron or something

old pine
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yup and thats why they shouldn't drop prayers for mains if you wanted this update to work for them

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i said it when they first put up the blog but

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that boss is 100% for pvp builds and irons

still plover
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not if the mage prayer is actually useful

old pine
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they pretty much missed anything regular main accounts would really be wanting

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yeah if you wanted a bunch of end game mains to swoop down on your med level boss

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the average guy though wont even realize

still plover
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thats the point, you wont care because youre getting the nice prayers

old pine
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idk the guy with no idea what hes doing as far as dps probably just says

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hey augury costs 1.8m

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dont need magic prayer now

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then they see rigour same thing happens

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maybe one day when they get better/smarter when it comes to the game they come back around and realize like

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hey maybe i need to go get that magic prayer for my 500 toa while i butterfly akkha

still plover
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thats fine, but just like how torso exists instead of bandos, its nice to have an option

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its also going to be better in some cases like you said

old pine
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but generally speaking

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i feel like this update is a total miss for the regular main player

still plover
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they said it was going to "respect your time" in the qna, im not exactly sure what that means but im assuming it means a low droprate

old pine
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its just gonna be a miss me with that shit while i go make money and buy generally speaking better things for little investment

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unless jagex just juices the drop tables

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you never know

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they figure out drop tables than unfigure it out for themselves pretty regularly lol

still plover
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oh yeah, also in the case of pvp accounts

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its nice that you arent forced to get 77 prayer anymore

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youll be totally fine at 74

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so thats -1 combat level i suppose

old pine
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idk why their drop tables are so erratic though

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like

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araxxor

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pretty much nailed it perfectly

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but thats sitting in the middle of a sea of crazy stuff like zombie pirates or original td drop tables

still plover
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sorta like the gwd ones

old pine
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yeah they just are weird about that like

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araxxor drops aren't super great but they're respectful like you don't get a single guam leaf

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for some reason half the time they try to do the bare bones thing its insane and actually you just get nothing lol

still plover
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i feel like they really should retroactively do that with old things if theyd like to keep inflation in check

old pine
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huey is another example where they come out so low its like

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come on they didn't think this was good before it came out lol

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probably were already typing up the hotfixed loot tables before we saw it

still plover
prisma basalt
# cold timber a zerker versus a med level both won't have it no

The “both will have it” is a pure vs pure build if they’re trying to optimize vs their own…if not it’s not a huge difference….cause of…..one deffence and all
Usually a pure vs zerk the last thing that’s a problem is what offensive prayer a zerker has……
Zerkers would also probly have the other two prayers like I said before man it’s 1-2 cb lvl for all these new prayers on any current zerker pvp build….

cold timber
# prisma basalt The “both will have it” is a pure vs pure build if they’re trying to optimize vs...

Yeah I think your first point here makes sense, tho I forgot to what the point or context of that was
When considering the balance of pures vs zerks and how new updates will affect that, I think we should look into it more closely than "ah well, the last thing that's a problem is what X a zerker has anyway.."
And yeah 1-2 cb lvls indeed, what was it you were arguing here, sorry, I can't really understand what you were trying to argue for/against here

fierce iris
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The phrasing in this poll definitely needs to be adjusted. I would like the new prayers to be introduced, but I don't want them to be untradable. Currently, I have no way to make this distinction.

slow bronze
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[[arcane prayer scroll]] [[dexterous prayer scroll]]

echo duneBOT
slow bronze
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here's your tradeable prayers

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and they're actually stronger too

cold timber
old pine
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thats not really why anyone goes torso over bcp

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you do it because you have finite gp and you're trying to buy the biggest upgrade for your money

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so the odds of something else not being a better use of your gp is really low for a long long time

neon iris
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why would them being useful for mains be a reason for untradable to be better than tradeable?
them being tradeable would give mid levels a nice drop to go for when trying to make some gp and it allows high level mains to not feel ''forced'' to do the content. If I wanted to make myself miserable for an upgrade/sidegrade I would play an ironman.

slow bronze
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you can always go back to vorkath to gpscape if fighting these bosses is going to be miserable for you

neon iris
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good job on not adressing the point i made

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but i guess that was deliberate

merry hull
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If you're a main and don't want to fight the new boss can't you just buy the rigour and augury scrolls and grind out 77 prayer in [however fast your wallet allows]?

cold timber
# neon iris why would them being useful for mains be a reason for untradable to be better th...

I'll address it:

  • It should have less of a negative impact on rigour/augury scroll prices.
  • I think it's good game design do incentivize mains to do more of a variety of content and to have useful things to grind for rather than just grind GP one place then buy everything through GE, that feels less interesting and I think that's a big reason why Ironman mode is so popular (I've played iron too for this exact reason)
  • I'd argue there are enough drops to go for to make gp in a variety of places, perhaps perilous moons may be a good option in these cases which was added not too long ago.
  • Having incentives for content isn't "forcing" people to do the content, especially if it's not the best in slot upgrade. There is a balance to strike here which I think they've striked very well in their proposal here. Does anyone feel forced to grind out quartz for the ancient sceptre, or even the ancient sceptre itself, currently? I don't think so, especially not mains, and I think it's design is good and feels rewarding to engage with all at the same time.

"If I wanted to make myself miserable for an upgrade/sidegrade I would play an ironman."

  • I'm sorry to hear that you feel miserable unlocking things and progressing your account and engaging with a variety of content. I don't think Jagex's game design here can be held responsible for that feeling in these cases... 🙂
neon iris
neon iris
# cold timber I'll address it: - It should have less of a negative impact on rigour/augury sc...

1: Youre right about the scroll prices, but it would negatively impact the price of the staff if more people do it for longer
2: The way I see it is that people who want to grind out their upgrades themselves (ironman or not) can always choose to do so, if the drop is made untradable the choose is removed for people who dont want to do that and prefer to do content they find more enjoyable.
3: There could also be an argument made that there are already enough untradeables to go for.
4: yea that is why i put forced in quotes, I do think the prayers will be more usfull than the quartz tough.

5: hahaha truth to be told, i enjoy clogging for the most part. I just dont do content I dont enjoy and like a dirty main i want to reap the benefits of other people's labour 😛

I could be wrong but it feels to me like they are adding more untradable rewards than they used to.

merry hull
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How do you know you won't enjoy the content?

old pine
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tbh

merry hull
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You might like it alot.

old pine
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i know they refer to this as like "mid game" content

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i feel like thats kind of an exaggeration this is really more like baby's first steps into pvm

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theres so much of this content that its probably hard to actually go do all of it and still be the level where it even makes sense for you to go out and do it

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idk its a really weird angle to shoot for the player that doesn't have piety yet is like

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in what amounts to a very brief period of their account assuming they continue playing

merry hull
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It seems to be like the boss you do after scurry

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But regardless of where exactly it fits in, the game does need an intro boss that teaches gear switching

neon iris
# merry hull You might like it alot.

I dont know and I will definingly try it out on launch
but with tradeable/untradable im not talking about just this boss but about all new content.

old pine
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i agree with that idea in concept but im not sure that the game doesn't already do that

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like there are plenty of still easy bosses where you might bring more than one combat style

neon iris
old pine
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well its not really aimed at people much beyond 100cb

merry hull
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So, I'm expecting this to be like a place to get comfortable with switches before you go to zulrah etc

old pine
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since they're going to have piety

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etc like

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if you're 110 combat you can get 77 prayer and have rigour etc

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you're well beyond the point of needing to farm a low level boss for hours to get some prayers that are already irrelevant mostly for you

merry hull
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People be talking about dying to zulrah many tens of times to get their first kc, maybe they thought the jump was too much

old pine
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zulrah is not the easiest boss with gear swapping

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things like dks for example exist

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or kq or like idk several quest bosses

merry hull
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right

old pine
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just equipping a couple of pieces of gear for another combat style when you have a reason to do so is just

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not really a big hurdle and you run into it enough that its not like some secret hidden tech to be taught by a boss

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idk i just think they might be thinking a little too hard lol

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i think the game already walks people into doing that as it is

neon iris
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While the focus is on shoring up your switches, there'll be some movement elements incorporated ) and you're naturally incentivised to swap your offensive prayers, but won't be expected to do a heavy amount of overhead Prayer switching.

fierce iris
# cold timber You may have been the first one I've seen say that you prefer tradeable versions...

As they are currently proposed, I don't feel they fit with the untradable prayer design space, this is historically reserved for quest rewards. Also, in my opinion it doesn't make logical sense to want a weaker untradable version of an already tradable best-in-slot prayer. I don't think players disliked the best combat prayers for ranged and mage to be tradable. They presumably moreso disliked the fact that they came from somewhat prohibitive content to the average player. I do agree with the sentiment someone else voiced that prayers can be a worthwhile drop to chase for mid-level players. Making it untradable would make any of those drops a one-and-done kind of deal and reduce repeatability of the boss for this reason.

indigo trench
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I think it makes sense that a weaker version of a BIS is untradable. With the exception of infernal/quiver, all BIS are tradable.

There's just enough repeatability to grind until the prayers drop, being untradable lets Jagex add dryness protection, and being tradable would cause these drops to tank more rapidly than CoX prayers while throwing off gp/hour balancing.

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I'd rather this design for midgame rewards than a repeat of the Hueycoatl drop table where the gp/hr is horrible because they added tradable uniques. But the tradable midgame uniques have such terrible drop rates ("chase unique") that they are simply not worth grinding for neglible gain (Hueycoatl hide vs god armor) or so niche that it is not useful for the hours needed to actively grind for it (Dragon hunter wand only good for metal dragons).

fierce iris
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It really irks me that they didnt add a new defense prayer of the same tier as the Deadeye / Mystic Vigour prayers. Just seems clunky. Both of these proposed prayers now give 5% defense, while steel skin gives 15%. Imo they should just remove the 5% defense boost, and create a new defense prayer that gives 20%.
That way the new prayer tier would actually be complete.

fierce iris
still plover
sacred gust
cold timber
# still plover i think theyre trying to avoid adding new prayers to the list, unless you mean a...

Yeah 15->20% steel skin upgrade prayer scroll on the same drop table would be a slap in the face to get, dead content on release, very few would be interested in grinding to get that. Imagine someone gets the range and magic ones, would they stay for the steel skin upgrade? Ehhh, no.

Also it ties in with progression actually since it bridges that gap of mystic might/eagle eye having 0% defence boost and rigour/augury having 25%. It makes perfect sense

cold timber
# fierce iris I like the design direction too, I just don't see how making them untradable mak...

I'd argue it makes good sense why these are better as untradeables:
**Let's imagine the case of a main character's game progression: **One would be considering whether to spend X (presumably less than rigour and augury's value) for these Deadeye and Mystic vigour, or spend Y amount of gp to get prayer up for 10 minutes to unlock the upgrades of Augury and Rigour (1,8m and 12m).
I don't see how it would ever be worth spending money for the scroll when that money should go to prayer exp for rigour/augury instead... Or well, it would actually be used for new account's progression in early game which could access them within first 30 minutes of their progression... (Buying on ge, get 63 prayer at altar lvl 3) - This doesn't seem like a healthy game progression... You see? It would just increase gp to win-meta, not even needing to engage in content for good gear/items/prayers doesn't seem like the best approach.

How would it not be super low price since it's just a sidegrade to progression for specific afk or niche scenarios?

fierce iris
fierce iris
# still plover i think theyre trying to avoid adding new prayers to the list, unless you mean a...

That would be the logical trajectory in terms of defense increase 15% -> 20% -> 25%. I did mean a new prayer, not an upgrade to the existing Steel Skin. It's strange to remove the defence level requirement for Chivarly, but then still give it a partial 5% Defence boost. Would make more sense to give Steel skin-like prayer a defence requirement and put the defence boost solely on those prayers. The only fully boosting prayers would still be the highest tier ones (Piety - Rigour - Augury).

fierce iris
# cold timber I'd argue it makes good sense why these are better as untradeables: **Let's imag...

This is an interesting perspective, I had not considered the fact that level 3s could be getting the tier 2 prayers really easily and early on that way. The drop rate would not be a lot more forgivable though it's untradable so that it can be realistically farmed and obtained at med-level range. The prayers should be useful before your account reaches the point where the player would skip them entirely and go for Rigour and Augury anyway. You wouldn't have that problem if the reward was tradable.

cold timber
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But then again, since piety and the other tier 5 prayers do have defence level reqs for whatever reason, it could make sense for the tier 4 ones to follow suit with a 40 defence level req

cold timber
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Hence, that's not a problem in the way these have been proposed.

sacred gust
cold timber
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Sharing this comment here from the #game-update channel to show it here too:

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I would also like to note here and suggest again that I think a good optional route instead of Holy Grail could be Merlin's Crystal + One Small Favour = Unlock Knight Waves Introduction Training 0.5 of Knight Waves

This way would need no exp lamp changes, has a bit more requirements of questing putting chivalry reqs closer to mid-game, changes no legacy content except for adding a mini version of Knight Waves part 0.5 (which can have set requirements to whatever the best reasonable choice is for general account progression and account builds balance, especially balancing all legacy builds).

I think 1, 40, 45 or 50 defence reqs could be fitting, but this could be polled by Jagex if this approach would become a reality. 🙂

quiet oak
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no to buffing pures

quiet oak
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this is the reward we need from royal titans

image.png
quiet oak
wheat furnace
wheat furnace
sacred gust
cold timber
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I think this post is the answer for the way forward, please consider this proposal, Jagex ❤️

indigo trench
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I appreciate the effort you're putting in Swimz, but I don't think it's fundamentally going to change the poll results because the biggest portion of votes are more emotional than rational. That is to say, even if things were unbundled, quest lamps changed to an additional quest, def xp added, etc, like in your proposal to address some "stated reasons"... the end result is just going to be yes to a lower drain rate chivalry and no to everything else.

#

The "stated reason" is simply the most visible. You are getting a reason because the act of asking for a reason prompts a person to justify their emotion/instinctive response. (emotion informs their response)

The "real reason" is just that people don't like wildy PvP and are in an antagonistic relationship against those they see as PvPers. So seeing anything help those they perceive to be on the other side of the predator wildy PvP dynamics will provoke them to vote no (ie: spite vote or whatever you prefer to call it instead).

This is why chivalry for pures/zerkers (+3%) will continue to fail, just like how god dhide 1 def (+1 prayer) and mm1 skip xp option (+4 QP) failed.

This is also why I believe the range and mage prayers (which are more powerful than chivalry in wildy PvP) would have failed if they simply added "with no defense requirement" to the poll wording, plus you would also have people saying they need to "unbundle" the question so the no defense aspect can be polled separately.

Rationally, the mains of today's OSRS player base are not dying to pures in the wildy because pures are op. They would have died significantly faster to meds in the wildy (Rigour accounts) but the nostalgic connection of pures/zerks to PvP is stronger than that of meds, which have been the strongest wildy build for the past 7 years.

Trying to address surface-level reasons for chivalry won't change the underlying emotions against the brokenness of wildy PvP, and this discussion on chivalry for pures (and zerks) will continue to be a perpetually moving target.

#

Even if a change has no impact on PvP whatsoever, you'd still see a big number of no votes if that change perceived to only help "PvP builds" and along with a lot of farcical reasons popping up due to their anti-wildy PvP emotion.

vast burrow
#

Thats why the next poll should only have options about where chiv should come from etc.. or just force update it in.

indigo trench
#

If they forced it in (ie: "integrity"), it'd be a repeat of god chaps and mm1. Even if people forget since they don't affect that PvP experience, nothing will change about how polls affecting restricted accounts will get voted down.

#

If the goal is to change how these polls are voted down, Jagex will need to look at a wildy rework of sorts to make PvP more "fair" and "enjoyable".

vast burrow
#

I think that the problem with pvp is cheating...

indigo trench
#

Like wildycctv? Yea that definitely makes things worse

vast burrow
quiet oak
# indigo trench I appreciate the effort you're putting in Swimz, but I don't think it's fundamen...

I appreciate the effort you're putting in, but you can stop lying.
"people don't like wildy PvP" is true, but because jagex has incentivized unfair matchups.

This poll was all about furthering the capabilities of a minmaxed tier of accounts that can already punch roughly twice as hard as their level indicates through gold from their main and skewed stats.

Don't act like there's no actual issue being furthered with this poll.

indigo trench
#

but fundamentally the predator v prey is broken, a 20 level discrepancy is hard to overcome and a 30 level difference is insurmountable

bleak rose
#

Why are you only talking about wilderness when bounty hunter and pvp worlds are still a thing

indigo trench
quiet oak
quiet oak
bleak rose
#

The only item “forcing” you into wildy is ma2 capes?

#

Nothing else is

#

Its risk vs reward

indigo trench
quiet oak
indigo trench
# quiet oak 3% is more than 0%. math.

Again, "meaningful" is the key word here. Who would seriously would die from that 3% that wouldn't die to a med account or wouldn't have died anyways without that 3%?

bleak rose
#

Of what you just said, 1(arguably 2 with diaries) forces you into wildy

#

Pet farming is a choice to make, same with pvming for gold, thats part of the risk of it

#

Nothing other than ma2 and pontetionally diaries is a requirement to progressing an account

quiet oak
bleak rose
#

The danger is known

#

Its pvp

quiet oak
bleak rose
#

Progression that is not required nor does it lock you out of anything

quiet oak
#

None of these things force players into bounty hunter or a pvp world.

vast burrow
#

Tbh u aint risking bank at those wildy bosses

quiet oak
vast burrow
#

And ofc at scorpia, i dont even loot the boss because there is always maxed mains coming to get my monk robes and i just accept it and run back for the pet hunt

indigo trench
#

#1305859803981025320 message It's why I talk about how meds have been the best wildy PvP build for the past 7 years but people are still nostalgic about pures/zerks

quiet oak
#

Go away.

#

There's more players than you if all you care about is your own experience.

#

It's like calling for a drop rate nerf after you get spooned rares.

#

ffs

#

It's moronic

vast burrow
bleak rose
#

You are also falling back on personal experience lmao

quiet oak
bleak rose
#

You are not forced into wilderness

quiet oak
#

what's possible right now ingame

#

a level 80 can use ice barrage on a level 30.

bleak rose
#

In 50 wilderness

quiet oak
#

that same 80

#

can use ice barrage on a 126 skilling

bleak rose
#

Where a level 126 can hit a lvl 80

indigo trench
#

That same level 80 hitting a level 30 would kill the level 30 regardless of being a pure or not.

bleak rose
#

Skilling in wilderness is a personal choice

#

And not having gear to protect urself is a personal choice

#

Not a forced one

vast burrow
#

That has never been a problem. Just dont take ur bank into lvl 50 wildy

quiet oak
#

Again, just disregard everything that feeds into the no-vote for piety

bleak rose
#

You keep moving the bar

#

We are just adjusting to what you say?

quiet oak
#

fuck off

bleak rose
#

Ur initial reasoning for no vote was because you misread the blog and then passed it off as a sneaky poll situation

merry hull
#

Let's all take a breather

bleak rose
#

And once people disagreed, you changed ur claim

quiet oak
#

Should every jagex poll state one thing in the question, include "as described in the poll", and then do something completely different because the poll blog had details buried?

#

Poll: "Should we ban regular chat spam at the GE as described in the poll?"
->
Blog: "we would like to implement vesta's longsword available throughout the game, and add a basic repeat chat filter to grand exchange"

bleak rose
#

LOOl

indigo trench
quiet oak
#

Same as any dirty politician would.

vast burrow
#

Welcome to the real world

indigo trench
quiet oak
vast burrow
#

Thanks to eoc, we got better version of osrs

quiet oak
#

They did this one with so much malice they put up an aggro dummy right next to it to distract from it.

#

Fuck every jmod involved in that poll.

vast burrow
#

But lets be honest. Does the prayers make your gameplay worse or will u benefit from em?

quiet oak
indigo trench
#

Honestly, the mage and pray are mostly geared towards ironmen who can't do cox yet and also can't just buy the rigour/augury prayers off the GE for cheap.

quiet oak
#

outside of the neutral ttk decrease in pure pvp, it will increase the griefing potency against those that don't.

indigo trench
#

3% is just a feel-good upgrade that ironmen get along the way, while PvP builds have to decide if they're worth the combat level gains.

quiet oak
#

or gold

vast burrow
#

I want the chiv just for pvm on my zerk, just as i wanted the mage and range pray. Maybe some day i start pking but thats most likely bh.

quiet oak
#

if you want the 3% feel-good, the buff should've been applied to bh.

indigo trench
vast burrow
quiet oak
#

But this won't be used in simply pure vs pure

indigo trench
#

especially when it's 3%?

quiet oak
#

you go up against a main your level with cheap gear, theres no chance already.

indigo trench
vast burrow
quiet oak
vast burrow
bleak rose
#

The standard varies on combat level

quiet oak
#

okay you're gaining 2 combat levels? for 3% damage/acc increase

#

well

#

over the previos prayers

indigo trench
quiet oak
#

what were they

bleak rose
#

Its not a 3% dmg increase

#

Its a 3% str increase

#

Which is 1 max hit depending on gear

vast burrow
#

its barely 1 max hit in a specific situations for pures

#

As i said its mostly for being 1 click melee pray

quiet oak
#

44-62

#

2 levels for 3% more power/acc

vast burrow
#

3

quiet oak
#

here's the thing

#

your 3% is on top of hitting 40s and 50s

bleak rose
#

50s?

quiet oak
#

a level 79 main will be in dragon hitting 20s

bleak rose
#

The only thing hitting 50s are special attacks and lucky bolt procs

quiet oak
#

He's ruled out pvp.

#

and you're complaining about dead pvp.

#

and ppl spite voting

bleak rose
#

Personal experience

quiet oak
#

you want to make niche accounts more potent to deter new pkers.

bleak rose
#

You cant use your personal experience and then disregard other peoples

#

Thats not how that works

quiet oak
#

if everyone in the pures circle is using these buffs

#

the only thing changing is a ttk

bleak rose
#

Not everyone pure will be using said buffs

vast burrow
#

Maybe those who already have +60 pray but most of em arent going for 60

quiet oak
#

who it really affects are those that get caught up by it and aren't equipped with the same power creep.

vast burrow
#

and those who have +60 are around 89-100cb

indigo trench
bleak rose
#

^

quiet oak
bleak rose
#

Any med between 100-112 destroys every other build

bleak rose
#

For pvm

quiet oak
#

because I've highlighted the fkn cons of it

bleak rose
#

No one wants to activate 3 seperate prayers over and over when doing bosses that require 2 or more combat styles

quiet oak
#

you're asking for "integrity" changes that naturally kill off an aspect of the game.

bleak rose
#

What aspect is it killing

indigo trench
#

And the reason I talked about why chivalry failed is to address Swimz. The guy is trying hard to get chivalry to pass (at least for zerks).

quiet oak
#

But we have god alignments coming. I'd imagine bandos would have something to cater towards zerkers.

#

That's another reason these prayers shouldn't have even been polled.

#

stop touching the standard book when a dozen other books are going to be possible, and will need tweaks like this to have a reason for existing.

bleak rose
#

Just out of curiosity, why zerks and not pures?

#

That would just bridge the dmg gap between zerks and mains and widen the gap between pures and zerks, which zerks were made to bully to begin with

quiet oak
# bleak rose Just out of curiosity, why zerks and not pures?

43 prayer offers 40% mitigation against players. 43 defense doesn't even come close to that. 99 magic provides 74 defense levels worth of magic protection. The fact that two stats other than defense actually provide better protection than defense itself turns pvp, at low levels, into an insider knowledge game, where defense can be written off as a useless stat for a decent amount of power.

A new player on their main stepping into pvp for the first time will have a low budget, balanced defense and lower prayer, literally no match for someone building a 1 def pure from the top down.

The new main steps into pvp and will see that they were hit like they may have seen in 126 pvp vids, and avoids pvp or quits entirely.

#

Accounts that haven't entirely skipped out on defense water down that desparity.

bleak rose
#

Thats only for magic though

#

40% dmg reduction from overhead prayers

#

40 defence is huge when overhead prayers only reduce the incoming dmg and not the chance of the opponent actually hitting on you

quiet oak
#

My view, is that this ever-increasing gold and knowledge gap makes quitters, not learners.

#

Primarily at low levels that might not even know ancient magic exists.

#

The problem is watered down with every defense level a tier has, that's why zerkers are not as big of a problem as pures.

bleak rose
#

Okay i see where you’re coming from with that view point

#

It makes the entry into low level pvp harder kind of

#

Low levels like 40-50 most of the time wont be above 31 prayer though

indigo trench
#

You're right about the prayer Fuji, 63 pray or even 43 pray is bad on a low level pure and most pures at the 40-50 bracket would be 1 pray. Only until lv70+ would 43+ prayer start being worth the combat level gains, and it would be closer to lv80+ if a pure decides to go 63 prayer (at which point you're getting into zerker and med wildy territory).

But knowing that requires a deeper knowledge of the pvp brackets, which goes back to the point that the "real reason" for voting no is that people don't like wildy PvP (emotional based and not rational based).

Still, it is nice and helpful that you're engaging without resorting to insults, and trying to shift opinions with information. Really, it does help.

#

The problem is that the reach of chat engagement like this is minimal, and Jagex needs to start talking about the underlying emotion (ie: talking about fixing what makes wildy PvP unfun to the prey) to really bring a shift in the number of no votes. Otherwise, Jagex is stuck with doing 'tegrity change all the time like they did with god chaps and mm1.

Without shifting those feelings, what you end up with is mostly a variety people forming a variety of justifications to that negative emotion. Trying to address all those reasons is unproductive compared to Jagex themselves putting out information about restricted accounts doing non PvP stuff while finally addressing wildy PvP dynamics.

still plover
#

im not sure why there are people who think you can pass pvp polls if you're being reasonable

#

the reality is that it will only pass if there is something in it for the people voting no, that's it.

#

it wasn't because jagex bundled 3 polls into one, it wasn't because it doesnt fit in with the lore, all you need to understand that is to go back and look at recent polls that have failed in the past, all pvp related, it's pretty obvious there's an underlying problem in spite voting and im not sure why people are acting like it's some other pointless agenda

old pine
#

it did fail because of the bundled question thing it almost passed despite it

#

if they didn't piss those people off it passed

#

theres not that many people voting on the poll that they can't mess up and lose 5%

#

you can examine the same poll to see just how much the "pvp bad" thing impacts the decision making of players

#

look at the twinflame staff vs the pages vs the other two prayers

#

you can tell it does something

#

but then you have to figure out why it was so much worse on chivalry

#

theres a couple of reasons

#

the first is that other account types can also benefit from the magic/range prayer so thats + votes despite being a larger pvp buff

#

the second is that they chose to die on a stupid hill of pissing off a couple thousand people extra people with their bundled question stuff

#

third is that chivalry is honestly irrelevant to almost everyone

#

you stack those three things together and almost pass the question anyways

#

that means a lot of people were going to allow it but jagex managed to find a way to upset just enough people to fail the question

#

honestly if their presentation and reaction to the feedback had been positive the question passed

#

they just egoed themselves

#

i guess its debatable if jagex should try to manage the narrative around questions and the player sentiment or just let it be what it is but

#

they could've influenced the poll enough to pass it

#

the main thing though is that almost all of the pvp updates we have in the game passed a poll

#

some were integrity changes but its not true to say that people won't vote in pvp content

merry hull
#

Yeah if they split it up it would have passed I think.
When they poll eg leagues rewards they have one question for each individual cosmetic so it’s not like it’s an unreasonable request. They just had a very specific package they insisted on rolling out and if you disagree with any one of the three things in the bundle, or disagree with the bundling itself, you’re likely to vote no.

old pine
#

and tbh im afraid for them now with this topic in general

#

because now its just going to be the "fuck off we keep saying no" type of thing

#

where people wont even read future adjustments

#

and just say no so it goes away

merry hull
#

Yeah the “no means no” mentality takes over.

old pine
#

tbh that was also probably a factor this time

#

idk they really just played the situation poorly

still plover
#

if they split it out the part where it was a buff to pures would have just failed

old pine
#

you have to manage people better than this if you know its gonna be close to begin with

#

like

merry hull
old pine
#

i bet if you took the exact question that failed this time

#

and polled it before they tried the zombie pirate saga

#

i bet it passed

#

they're just doing too many things to collect various no votes on something thats going to be pretty close to begin with

#

you'd think they would realize you have to be really careful with anything involving any sort of restricted account or pvp

still plover
old pine
#

and not trip all over themselves

#

im sure its just standard question breakdown like

#

should we change the prayers stats should it come from a different quest and should we change that quests other rewards

#

because they are three different topics at the end of the day

merry hull
still plover
#

ok, so the last part would fail and it would still be a garbage prayer

#

i don't see why they should do that

merry hull
#

I don’t think it would fail actually

old pine
#

idk it wouldn't be garbage but it would have some

#

unfortunate consequences for some accounts

merry hull
#

Lamps from quests is completely standard nowadays

old pine
#

and of course it wouldn't be for 1 def

still plover
#

letting pures use blessed dhide chaps when it was a 1 prayer bonus buff of black dhide chaps failed with a 30% yes vote

#

this is way bigger than that

#

people havent magically changed their minds

#

theyve gotten even worse actually

old pine
#

idk if you look back players vote yes to things like

#

bounty hunter existing

#

and thats only for pvp

#

so people can be persuaded jagex just has to not do a terrible job

still plover
#

pretty sure the bounty hunter rework wasnt a poll

old pine
#

i just mean the original bh targeting etc

#

lms is another one

merry hull
#

I also don’t think people hate PvP, they just hate getting merced in the wilderness.

old pine
#

but idk

#

if players don't think chivalry should be for 1 def thats a choice

#

ultimately it doesn't matter

still plover
old pine
#

what it would really suck for would be the zerks that could probably fit it in but they quested before any of this happened

#

meaning they need a new account

still plover
#

also the pvp arena poll

#

literally everything failed and we got the most barebones minigame of all time

old pine
#

that's pretty understandable because they tried the same thing actually

#

"hey should these rewards come from pvp instead so people can skip the quests and have different builds?"

#

people apparently dont think so

#

which is fine but idk

#

they just gave up on the pvp arena

still plover
#

they would be pvp only, literally affecting nobody else

#

and the people who are voting no have no intentions of engaging with pvp outside of clues

#

which is what im talking about the whole time, its just spite voting

merry hull
#

PvP arena…
Like I’ve said elsewhere just copy the lms rewards to the PvP arena shop and it would be fine.

old pine
#

yeah but ultimately if you're going to be in pvp to get attacked doing stuff like bosses or prayer or whatever i mean

#

they get a say too

#

its easy to fix that issue as well but

#

jagex refuses to talk about it

still plover
#

so they would be using things they already are using anyways

#

just gained from pvp

old pine
#

sometimes other times depending on the levels and situations they might be stronger than normal

#

makes sense that blue team votes no to buffing red team conceptually

still plover
#

i think the new void robes were slightly stronger

still plover
old pine
#

the trick that jagex tries so hard to not acknowledge is that if you put up pvp content that is good and it doesn't pull in unwilling participants

#

it seems to pass every time

#

they just really hate that

still plover
#

if you put up pvp content where pvmers have something in it you mean

old pine
#

yeah

#

it makes sense that they're gonna say no or not want to buff the guys killing them etc

still plover
#

which makes it pointless to try and poll anything thats a change for pvp builds alone

old pine
#

because they dont even want to be involved to begin with

still plover
#

since there is nothing in it for pvmers

old pine
#

they should just start by releasing all of the pvmers from ever wanting to or needing to be involved in any of it to begin with

#

and then they'll be fine

merry hull
still plover
#

they won't be fine

old pine
#

like the bh stuff

#

jagex did a great job not putting it on the collection log

#

they dodged a ton of boosting and complaints

still plover
#

wilderness is also as optional as it gets currently

old pine
#

nope

#

one of the best spec weapons in the game and the unquestionably best prayer method is not optional

#

you've locked in a shit load of irons voting no forever

cold timber
old pine
#

with just those two

still plover
#

you can buy a voidwaker from ge

old pine
#

yeah and they're gonna say no and they're gonna be included in the polls because it impacts their gameplay

merry hull
old pine
#

if jagex doesn't disarm that situation

#

its just gonna keep happening like this

cold timber
still plover
#

all those things except the miniquest is optional

#

which is a quick miniquest

old pine
#

idk you'd think they would recognize what is happening

still plover
#

the spite voting? i agree

merry hull
old pine
#

there is a reason most games just have pvp and pve fully divorced from each other

#

you just create friction by combining those two groups

still plover
#

they had a time around 3 years ago where they added pvp updates as integrity changes which was going well, i dont see anybody complaining about pures getting blessed dhide chaps

#

but then after that for some reason they started polling things again, which believe it or not just brings back the original issue of spite voting

old pine
#

i just wish they'd accept that these dudes shouldn't be lumped together

#

like if they stopped putting pvmers into pvp content they could stop allowing them to vote on those questions

still plover
#

there is a wall that warns you from going into the pvp zone

cold timber
# old pine you just create friction by combining those two groups

my favorite osrs content combines the two, where I can pvm or skill while also ccompeting for those resources with other players and whoever tries to kill med while doing it, it's like playing 4D chess instead of 2D or 3D when it comes to the variables of how to optimize your gameplay and setups and how to play etc.

still plover
#

maybe people should learn to read

old pine
#

its not that they can't read

#

or anything like that

#

its just that they get so heavily rewarded that they go do content that they don't really like

#

so when jagex suggests more

#

what do you think they say

still plover
#

they feel entitled to all the reward without wanting to be subject to any of the risk?

old pine
#

no they say no to the rewards and content existing to begin with

#

so they dont get put in that situation again

merry hull
#

If this is gonna turn into the “if you don’t like it, don’t go to the wilderness “ and “entitlement “ arguments then I’m done, that argument has no end.

old pine
#

its super obvious jagex just

#

really doesn't want to let go of it

#

so the battle continues

#

they're basically running an experiment to see exactly where the tolerance level is of content people don't exactly like that much but will find it rewarding enough to go do

#

and people who really like pvp are just getting shit on because of it lol

still plover
#

that was happening way before they made wilderness this rewarding

#

im not sure if you guys remember or not

#

even the og revenants rewards a bunch of things failed

old pine
#

the easiest way to see thats whats really going on

#

is go look at the lms rewards that didn't pass

#

people didn't even want to see cosmetics that made their normal gear look cooler come from a pvp minigame because they wanted to make sure

#

they had no reason to ever do it

#

despite fully voting for lms existing

#

they dont hate pvp content they hate being included in it lol

still plover
#

atleast all the bounty hunter kits passed

#

and they all look really cool

old pine
#

but you can tell in that example that people just dread doing it themselves for any reason

#

if it were just spite they'd say no to lms to begin with

still plover
#

it may have been because jagex polled VLS earlier in that poll and everyone voted no to that

still plover
old pine
#

idr exactly when the poll was i just remember some lms cosmetics and stuff getting shot down

#

even though people said yes to lms

#

when stuff like that happens it really makes it clear what people actually think about it

still plover
#

was lms rework even polled

#

they dont poll reworks

#

those were all the biggest wilderness updates, LMS rework, ferox enclave, wilderness bosses, revenants rework

old pine
#

pvp arena was the same type of deal

still plover
#

all unpolled because they were just reworks

old pine
#

"sure pvp update is fine leave me out of it though"

#

is basically what those results mean

#

and jagex cant stand it

#

they always try and add in a little something so people who don't pvp might want to play lol which makes sense

#

but thats how you lose poll questions and content

#

and that really is a hard situation to be in tbf

still plover
#

if that was the case then polls that were small changes or qol for pvp accounts would also pass

#

like the blessed dhide chaps poll that failed with 30% yes votes

old pine
#

the people who feel basically that it would be an advantage for people who are killing them are gonna say no when they see those

#

thats why i was saying the first step should be getting those people out of the wild/pvp/whatever

still plover
#

which jagex has done their best to do by making most items optional

old pine
#

ya they just need to finish the mission

#

im sure this is why they actually wanted to nerf vw

#

they just didnt say it out loud

still plover
#

there are other options for voidwaker too believe it or not, youd just be slightly worse off, which makes sense if you want to be excluded from content

old pine
#

but that failed since people like their vw

#

and yeah ik i have claws and vw you have to use a dps calc to figure out which is better

#

on any given boss

still plover
#

im not sure why enjoying both pvm and pvp is this crazy thing to pvmers

old pine
#

i mean it happens for a lot of people like i was a maxed pure back in the day and i spend most of my time in pvm now

#

i dont really hate pvp anything but

#

a lot of people aren't like that and just slay dragons

#

and apparently lose their mind if they die at the chaos altar

#

i've also played other mmos to witness basically

#

the exact same reaction in wow for example when they had to win a couple of regular bgs for a pve questline

#

people went crazy and complained endlessly

#

something about some people and pvp goes really wrong and its best to just not get them involved at all

still plover
#

jagex should double down and just ignore those people

#

thats what i think

#

just like any other changes they've made to pvp unpolled, its mostly just forgotten about but is a great change for pvp

old pine
#

stuff like that though is why if you ever play wow

#

you'll notice pvp is 100% a separate game

#

you just login with the same ui

#

lol

#

and the only mixing of those two things is like

#

irrelevant world pvp thats entirely opt in

#

they basically realized that you can't make both groups happy and they're both big enough that you dont really want to upset either

#

so they just split them apart

still plover
#

i honestly wouldnt mind if they limited wilderness worlds

#

but make like half of them a barebones verision of wilderness without any teleports, or uniques, with garbage loot

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so people could be referred to that if they have an objections

old pine
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i guarantee you if you could do wilderness bosses with 50% of the normal drop rates

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those worlds would be absolutely packed

still plover
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yes because they would still be busted if there was no risk

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even with 50% loot

old pine
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i mean for just the bosses not really because the meta for those is using another account

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and never being at risk to begin with

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since you can teleport before they enter the boss room

still plover
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i know the perfect loot table for the content in the safe wilderness, sarachnis

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they should make the loot basically the same as that

old pine
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like my irons vw for example

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when i went for that

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i had 0 deaths

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you cant beat the second account outside scouting

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obv jagex is pretending they've never seen this in their lives though since it got them a second membership payment

still plover
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yes, but you have to pay attention, and its a good measure against bots since people looking to farm them just ignore scouts and hop to the worlds without them

old pine
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tbh i would fix that if i were just trying to make the wild better pvp wise

still plover
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even with 50% loot, the bosses would still be insane money with low reqs

old pine
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its super fucked up that the scout is just 100% protection if you aren't sleeping

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lmao pkers should be allowed to login inside of the caves or something

still plover
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the only issue i have with that is the boss ganging up on you alongside the pker while youre frozen

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if it was like revenants where the boss just gets off of you

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itd be good risk/reward

old pine
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on other accounts thats actually been helpful though

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like i've killed several people with an anti because spindel kills them for me if they protect against me

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its kinda random though since depending on the boss

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you dont really know who the boss is gonna try to kill

still plover
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artio seems to jump on the nearest player a lot more or something

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its just really annoying honestly

old pine
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i mean yeah if im gonna pvp i'd rather it just be like

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bh or a pvp world

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i dont think its super fun to try and anti some guy with a partial inventory meant for killing a spider or whatever

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makes sense though since originally

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i would pk in edge or whatever a million years ago

still plover
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i agree with that, but it still like to see some more gear come from wilderness, the wrathmaw rewards seemed great

vast burrow
old pine
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i sort of kind of hate that bh/pvp worlds killed all of that

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although if you tried to do edge today it wouldn't really be the same

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you'd have to like

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make bh rules apply to the first 10 or so levels of the wild

still plover
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i love damions crater personally

old pine
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for it to be more accurate to how it was back then

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since people didn't really nh much

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tbh now that i said that im almost surprised

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i've never seen them suggest something like that lol

still plover
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you mean the no freezes thing?

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and no overheads

old pine
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yeah and overheads

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tbh the overheads thing is probably enough

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some people did barrage back in the day but if you tried to like

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pray melee or something

still plover
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that sounds like itd be annoying, since people at zombie pirates only have to escape for 3 levels

old pine
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dudes would just leave and not even fight you

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i get why they did bh though

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it would just be more confusing stuff for people if the first x levels of wild worked that way

still plover
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i still dont understand why that rule with anglerfish overhealing is there

old pine
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they're probably just trying to make it more likely that people actually die

still plover
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if youre overhealing with anglerfish youd still be at a disadvantage since youre eating hard food instead of brewing

old pine
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yeah i think they just didnt really think about it too much and just said it doesn't work

cold timber
cold timber
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I present; 'Rivalry' to fill Chivalry's slot until unlocking and upgrading it to Chivalry after the classic unlock path 🙂 (See details in the #1022203837265756231 post I linked to above^

IMG_9869.png
cold timber
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I hope this message reaches Jagex's attention some way or another:
Please see all the proposed options from the community for Chivalry going forward that have been discussed in the last week (since the Chivalry Rework proposed in the Royal Titans poll failed) in the OSRS Official Discord in the #1022203837265756231 channel:
https://discord.com/channels/324132423636090880/1312269466369003570
https://discord.com/channels/324132423636090880/1306794223294484541
https://discord.com/channels/324132423636090880/1305875483673497650
https://discord.com/channels/324132423636090880/1312298556295614534
https://discord.com/channels/324132423636090880/1317752564204179456

Please let me know if I missed any and I'll add them to the list.

Jagex, please go through and consider these options against one another **and if they are all good options, perhaps poll them all against each other as alternatives then implement the one that wins with highest amount of votes? **

(Considering a tier 4 melee prayer is a part of integrity for game balancing reasons, especially for PvP brackets to fill help gap of the tier 5 prayers that all have 70 def req and has made a big imbalance for years - this is well known in the PvP community - and balancing changes don't need to be polled in the first place, so without exp lamp changes it shouldn't be necessary to poll this Chivalry/T4 melee prayer further)

stray shale
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idk if this has been brought up or is already in the blog

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but i feel like these bosses should drop tome of fire/water

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imo its really wierd for skilling bosses to be only source of it. and its quite rare to

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if goal is to make elemental spells more pouplar in progression then making them drop tome of fire/water is important imo

stark remnant
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When is this supposed to release?

sacred gust
# stark remnant When is this supposed to release?

February I reckon, just hope they give us some update about the prayer situation before then, if they are adjusting the Hill & Moss giants key system to be included with this update could take a little longer.

torn crypt
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Those prayers..... Finally, after years, we have a solution........ praise

clever aspen
cold timber
stark remnant
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What stats do you want for these guys? I have 70/77/65 melees and 60 magic/ranged but my gim duo partner has like 50s

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He's much more of a skiller lol

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He just finished grinding out 82 fishing for sharks

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I couldn't see anything about recommended stats in the blog so do you think he could do the boss with like 60s?

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NVM saw it said 90 to 110 combat

cold timber
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Jagex, will you address/discuss or propose a solution for a tier 4 melee prayer on the release of the Royal Titans next Wednesday?
Or have you already decided on a solution to implement along with the update?

It's been 3 months since the Official OSRS Twitter/X account tweeted: "We will discuss Chivalry in the near future as we delve deeper into the poll results..." and we have heard nothing of it since then..

Here is another link to see all the suggestions and discussions on T4 melee prayer/chivalry by the community since the Royal Titans poll launched: #1305859803981025320 message

spice dagger
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Hope they didnt keep the loot only one boss per kill if your solo, because thats dog

stark remnant
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they want it to be done in duos so it probably will be suboptimal to do it solo at the very least

indigo trench
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Like with other group content, you could solo and charge one other player to leech.

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But I think Jagex is actually secretly trying hard to force players to make friends. I mean, 2 dudes in a dungeon, anything could happen.

vast burrow
spice dagger
stark remnant
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i mean you could just not do a duo locked boss on ironman if thats how you feel

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i think most ironmen do group content but nobodies forcing them to

vast burrow
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As a midgame boss it will be soloable for sure

copper nova
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Do we know if slayer tasks/helm work on the giants?

slow bronze
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they probably do

stray shale
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ye i think they said tasks were gona work but not 100% sure

stark remnant
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What's this new staff going to be good for? Anywhere it's better than ibans/warped Sceptre?

covert prairie
foggy nacelle
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zulrah

stray shale
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zulrah and nex spirtual mages are only 2 places imo with salts/ovls/just power of trident/thralls i doubt its gona have use case outside of that

foggy nacelle
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hey it's not a bad thing at all to have a strong stepping stone staff to farm a boss that gives a stronger staff at least

stray shale
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at barrows its worse still 6t weapon on low magic def prob not ideal either

image.png
foggy nacelle
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perfectly fine for a early/mid game boss, unlike wand from huey where it's useful at basically nothing atm

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plus it's more like a bonus, they prayers are way more substantial of an upgrade

stray shale
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better rewards then delve mokhaKEKW

foggy nacelle
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lmfao for the tier of content they definitely seem better relatively

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wonder how the common loot will look like on titans though

covert prairie
spice dagger
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Wish the staff auto casted normal spells without being on normal spellnbook

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that woulda been a sick niche

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it just auto casts at anything with elemental weakness

indigo trench
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It’s still straight up worse than using fire surge with smoke battlestaff on anything with elemental weakness

cold timber
cold timber
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^I’m really disappointed Jagex didn’t even mention the promised chivalry discussion in todays update blog.
It's been almost 3 months now they said "in the near future" and no mention of it since...

copper nova
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Probably can calc for dps, according to wiki 100 def lvl +12 stab/slash def no crush def

woven oak
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You can get dupe Giantsoul amulets but they're untradeable and dont break down into anything - maybe a dismantle option for big bones or dessicated pages?

frozen gazelle
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What's the new staff price rn anyway? Is anyone interested ina 6 tick mage wep?

indigo trench
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It's a mostly a cosmetic, 10m and dropping

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Smoke battlestaff is better than Twinflame once you can cast Fire Surge.

foggy nacelle
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loot

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pages is for dessicated pages to convert to any elemental tome page

flat karma
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Hey Jagex, the new prayers move around the ones on mobile and it's really off-putting. I'm so used to the muscle memory of how it was. Could we maybe get prayer reordering on mobile similar to how we can on Runelite?

spice dagger
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Glad this update is not for my account type

image.png
vast burrow
cold timber
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I feel like it would make sense for them to be guaranteed drop at like 100 kc

vast burrow
cold timber
vast burrow
storm aurora
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The rarity on the scrolls is hella annoying, it'd be one thing if they were at least tradeable so the people who want the Prayers could pay big money to the people actually grinding the content for them, but to be this rare and untradeable is crazy work by Jagex. No consistency at all, prior prayer scrolls are tradeable.

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And also why are we able to get dupe Ammys that can't do anything lol

indigo trench
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I think they are going to do something for dupe ammys, like charging.

cold timber
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Yeah they'll definitely find a solution for the dupe ammy's at this rate, I'd expect them to have a solution for that on next week's update on wednesday, mark my words

cold timber
stray shale
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1/125 is pretty low especially with how fast they are to kill

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its more for irons

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if ur a main account u can prob make gp faster for rigour/augury then grinding these prayers

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or just as fast

spice dagger
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prayers are not for mains really unless your a pure/zerker

cold timber
storm aurora
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Or if you're like me and go past rate everywhere, you can be over 300 kc with no scrolls like I am on my Zerker

storm aurora
stray shale
storm aurora
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There's no way that's right lol

stray shale
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zulrah has same thing

storm aurora
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When you get an amulet it replaces both drops

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I'm assuming a prayer scroll does the same

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Then again I'm 300 kc no scroll so what the fuck do I know about it kekw

stray shale
storm aurora
stray shale
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rng is a factor

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theres gona be outliers but in general ive seen most ppl get scrolls pretty quickly

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like atleast one

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there might be other factors though ppl are considering

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like dmg contribution if ur giga leeching u might have worse odds we dont know if thats a thing

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cuz nex has that sort of thing

storm aurora
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Yeah but that's cuz Nex gives loot to up to 60 ppl

stray shale
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ye but its split by contribution

storm aurora
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Either way such a variable doesn't affect me since me and my duo are easily running sub 50 second PBs

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Scythe ZCB etc

stray shale
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like if u do 10% of dmg ur gona have a very small chance compared to someone that does 50% dmg in like nex 4man

storm aurora
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I know how Nex works brother

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I literally own NexFFA

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😆

stray shale
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but ye basically what im saying is rate is true but it may not be true for you if ur dps is hella scuffed

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but its not even confirmed if it works that way

storm aurora
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It's not true for me cuz Jagex has my shit shadow banned

stray shale
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u could simply just be unlucky

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rates in general are kinda of a lie

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afaik hitting rate only nets u like 65% chance of recieving drop

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and going 2x is like 80-85% approx

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but we base alot on rates and odds u should have it unless there is dmg contribution mechanics and ur getting out dpsed by main on pure

spice dagger
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Rates are fake, its 50-50

livid moth
#

You’re missing a pet :)

spice dagger
gilded raptor
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Looks like i know where i'm destined to go 5x the rate

merry hull
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gz ammy spoon