#Awakened DT2 Bosses should be worth repeating beyond "aspirational reasons"

115 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

dull pivot
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To preface this: If you are against Awakened DT2 being more rewarding than normal DT2 bosses on an hourly basis, then you are fundamentally against ToA, Corrupt Gauntlet, Hard Mode ToB, Colosseum, and CoX Challenge Mode rewarding as good or better at higher difficulty.

Currently, Awakened DT2 bosses are only done for Blorva (a cosmetic) or if you're Noobtype/Port Khazard making a 27+ Awakened Leviathan video in a row.

This is because the Awakened versions have more HP and the drop rate increase is less than how much the HP increases. At the same time, you cannot reduce the defense of Awakened bosses, meaning the expected time to see any unique is worse than just doing the non-Awakened versions.

Currently, it is 2x - 3.5x the HP of the boss and only 3x the drop rate. 2x is Awakened Vardorvis, but due to his defense draining mechanics, it is easily 3x the HP due to his heals + his passive defense drain is slower due to more HP.

It is silly to make a piece of content that can be easily adjusted to be repeatable by those who are qualified, while also fixing a decently long grind if you are skilled enough to do so.

Imagine if you had to do 2000 normal difficulty Gauntlets for 1 Bowfa.

dull pivot
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Alternatively, and I know @delicate anvil will agree with this:

Make Awakened Bosses completely free to access, but if you sacrifice an Awakener Orb, drops go from 3x for 2-3.5x the hp to 7.5-10x for 2-3.5x the hp (including pets).

This way, it acts more like a buyable Dark Totem/skill-based lottery ticket and will always retain value (cloggers, pet hunters, etc.)

delicate anvil
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100%. Game should reward skill and not just be 1nd content

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Makes no sense to penalize players with the current system. Negative gp/hr for a harder version even if you pull uniques

wind moat
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Wholeheartedly agreed!
A hard mode should be more rewarding than the normal mode, for it is how you balance the content.
There have been plenty of ideas, such as refunding orbs on kills or making awakened bosses free past 1kc. However, sacrificing the orb itself for significantly better rewards is easily the best suggestion I've heard, as it achieves two important things:
-keeps the value of orbs in check (reminder: their entire existence is to be an economical aid for the people farming the normal dt2 bosses, but that failed after many got their blorva cosmetic)
-makes awakened bosses have an appeal beyond the blorva flex, something that would liven up the end-game scene (personally, would love to see them optimised)

dull pivot
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It's like if CG's pet and unique chance was the same as normal Gaunlet's 1/2k pet and unique chance, or if Infernal only gave a +4 STR cape (same as Fire Cape).

I don't like the idea of Jagex wasting time making 1nd content that could easily be made repeatable, even if a limited number of people would be doing it.

They understood this for Colosseum, hence why they added non-quiver rewards.

delicate anvil
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@buoyant wraith Any reason as to why you’re opposed?

buoyant wraith
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You when I disagree and refuse to elaborate:

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delicate anvil
dull pivot
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I still think Inferno should copy Colo and scale better in terms of loot, or at least let you sacrifice Inferno Capes for 600k Tokkul, similar to Quiver.

delicate anvil
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That’d be nice

wind moat
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suddenly onyxes become 2 gp masorihmm

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it definitely could work though

delicate anvil
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Truly would be money infernos

dull pivot
wind moat
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oh, right

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I always forget chaos runes

surreal venture
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I’d support this if the awakened bosses don’t require orbs for every attempt

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Only thing stopping me from trying awakened bosses is the steep attempt cost and a general lack of meaningful rewards

buoyant wraith
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The primary and really the main argument against this is that it would almost certainly squash the value of the uniques from these bosses. It's already prohibitively difficult content, and expensive for the amount of attempts it takes most players to complete even one kill. That means that the group that stands to benefit the most from it is botters. The amount of damage a handful of bots could do to the lifetime value of the uniques in a handful of hours (under the proposed conditions) would be borderline irreparable. I know that doesn't really matter to irons that much, but until botting is more reliably catchable/stoppable in a short time frame, this is just not a great idea.

delicate anvil
# buoyant wraith The primary and really the main argument against this is that it would almost ce...

I don’t think it was tank the uniques at all. To make a bot script to fight these perfectly would be interesting but we shouldn’t really have that as an argument for content. The fact that you mentioned the attempts you take to kill this boss is something to take note of. It would raise the price of orbs and in turn give a fun challenge to those that can do it. Most mistakes you make will 1 shot you

delicate anvil
surreal venture
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I’d farm awaken whisperer all day if that was a thing

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After doing 2K normal whisperer, I watched the awakened fight and it doesn’t look hard at all

buoyant wraith
# delicate anvil I don’t think it was tank the uniques at all. To make a bot script to fight thes...

There are definitely already bot scripts for awakened bosses. The reason that it's not exploited is because the reward is cosmetic. While having the price of orbs skyrocket would be nice, it would be nearly negligible amounts of GP traded in turn for literal billions of value produced on a hourly basis depending on the size of the bot farm. I know nobody likes to hear "it will be botted" as an argument because everything gets botted, but it has serious knock-on effects that impact every legitimate player of the game, no matter the account type.

delicate anvil
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To counter that tbh I’d say Jagex has been bot nuking content moreso lately as you can tell by certain boss hi scores

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My zulrah rank went up by a couple thousand which was in general pretty stagnant for years

buoyant wraith
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Yes, they're making excellent strides, but until they have full client control back, they won't be "winning the fight", so to speak.

delicate anvil
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I believe they’d monitor it as it is aspirational content

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Some stuff would kinda be easy to tell

buoyant wraith
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The only issue with that is that with rates like the rates proposed, early detection becomes more difficult because average the number of kills required to see a unique would be in the double digits. How many ill gotten uniques would trickle through? It's just not worth it to benefit a relative handful of presumably already rich/geared players.

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Like, I'm definitely not opposed to the suggestion thematically, logically. It seems right given the difficulty and circumstances, but at this point in time the abuse factor is just not ignorable, at least to me.

radiant storm
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i remember talking to draco about this and i believe it was duke (?) which was "technically" (slightly) more time efficient (albeit a massive gp dump) to do awakened over regular

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Make Awakened Bosses completely free to access
i think if blorva is obtained i agree 100%, since you've already proven yourself effectively

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regarding bots and reducing the value of uniques

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i wonder if you'd agree with something like

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let's say 5x rate for pet (not going by 7.5-10x since awakened already currently doesn't do that for tertiary loot), and uniques instead roll their currently 3x rate, but avoids duplicates.

so for example, if let's say you went giga dry and did awakened whisperer with 0 uniques, you'd have an effective 3/64 roll to hit the unique table, then weighted 1, 1, 1, 3, 9, 9 for virtus pieces, siren's staff, vestige roll, ingot (respectively) - meaning for example getting a virtus piece would be 3/64 x 1/24 = 1/512

if let's say somewhere down the line you farmed whisp and got ingot, and 1 piece of virtus - doing an awakened kc would mean 3/64 roll to hit the unique table, then 1, 1, 3, 9 for each of the 2 remaining virtus pieces, siren's staff, vestige roll - meaning getting one of the remaining two virtus pieces would be 3/64 x 1/14 = 1/298.67

and then let's say if you literally only have 1 piece of virtus left in collection log, then rolling the unique table would hit that remaining piece guaranteed

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in other words dupe protection, but only given to the awakened variant, and would maintain the 3x rate (as opposed to 7.5-10x) for unique table roll alongside a 5x rate for tertiary drops

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i would say, given that most cloggers end up farming dt2 bosses quite a bit, that it would feel nicer for the player to have dupe protection for collection log slots specifically via the awakened variants, than to simply 3x the current multiplier on unique table rolls on awakened

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since if you only have virtus left but you have all of the other uniques for that designated boss, you would effectively guarantee a roll for virtus, where three rolls would finish your clog (excl pet ofc, since that rolls in tertiary)

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@dull pivot how do you feel about this

toxic bramble
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In regards to concerns about abuse or excessive farming, perhaps a daily limit could be established for the amount of Orbs used. It would be per Boss, and only make sense in the scenario that the base awaken encounter was made free/unlimited.

dull pivot
# radiant storm <@774023187205587004> how do you feel about this

I think uniques should also be better because Virtus pieces are pretty rare and this would help with that. I would also prefer 5 separate rolls because that would be hilarious to see a person get a 1 kc Vestige because it happened to triple roll Vestige 3 out of 5 times in a single kill kekw

dull pivot
toxic bramble
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Sorry, I was basing that off your proposed alternate scenario where the Orbs give you an increased drop rate but you could still do the encounter without using an orb which would be sufficient for blorva

radiant storm
dull pivot
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Could be free to access after 1st kc though, yes.

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And first kc still requires orbs.

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Whatever gets the job done and orbs keep sinking.

lavish wyvern
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tbh i think orbs should be required for each kill, keeps it in line with more risk more reward nature of the awakened bosses, if you remove the need of the orb, the improved droprate of uniques should be lower, the awakened versions imo were made as a stepping stone for Inferno and Col since you improve mechanically as a player without having to commit 30+ mins in a run for a real try (30+ for Col and 1h+ for inferno)

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on that note, it would be nice to have an option to pay upfront X amount of orbs to a specific npc for each boss, with the option of toggling between the versions

dull pivot
# lavish wyvern tbh i think orbs should be required for each kill, keeps it in line with more ri...

It's more that the 3x drop rates for 3x HP and no defense reduction makes it worse than normal for pet/uniques. It definitely doesn't need to be nerfed.

At the same time, Colosseum and even Inferno is more noob-friendly because you aren't paying 1.3m each time you fail (800k orb + 500k death fee).

We can discuss having a perma option, but for now, I think bosses being free to access after 1 kc, and orbs being a better drop roll multiplier is good for long-term.

lavish wyvern
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but in your reasoning, it defeats the purpose of the orb thus tanking its value, its a harder content alright but if you're someone that can farm awakened bosses then the GP shouldn't really be an issue, you don't necessarily need to have faster kills/meta on the awakened bosses, it should be an optional way to improve your chances and be mechanically better with low downtime between each real attempt, i do believe that time investment have more value than raw gp when you're going for content learning so i do not believe that Col and Inferno are more noob-friendly than DT2 Awake bosses

dull pivot
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By not improving the drop rates sufficiently, people don't have a reason to repeat Awakeneds, hence the point of the suggestion.

Jagex knew they had to peg at least 3x and chose the most conservative amount, but it wasn't sufficient.

That's why in my second paragraph I specifically called this out, where people only do this boss after at most 3 kc are Noobtype/Port Khazard; everyone else is get Blood Torva (double death 1-2 times so no kit, hence 3 kc at most) and get out.

lavish wyvern
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i agree with the aspect of better rate for uniques on the harder bosses, what i don't think is right it's for it to be free of charge (gp-wise) since there is almost 0 downtime for attempts, again, this is a hard content, most people will never farm these bosses, and those that can shouldn't have issues with spending 800k or more for attempts to farm, maybe a compromise would be to use an orb for each deathless session, in which you must only use orbs if you die, so if you constantly farm with no deaths, there is no cost

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consider my suggestion above with a npc with a toggle option between normal and awakened, in which you can store X amount of orbs and one will be reduce in each death for example

surreal venture
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Would be nice to get an orb refund if you get the kill.

dull pivot
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Well, it won't necessarily be "free of charge" because if you die, you still lose 800k for the orb and 500k for the death fee.

The 5-10x rewards are contingent on using the Orb and you still need to burn orbs for the first kc. And in every death, you would still be paying 500k each death.

lavish wyvern
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yes, but at the same time, if you don't die you have a better droprate and 0 cost, so basically its risk x reward, i think that you will not be farming awakened bosses if you die every single time

dull pivot
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I see it like CG vs Normal Gauntlet: 1.5-2x longer time-wise per KC, but the drop rate of bowfa multiplies by 5x, armor seed by 2.4x, and the pet drop by 2.5x.

Even without discussing the difficulty increase, which absolutely should be factored in to further increase the drop rate, you might not be able to clear every KC as a new player, but you will damn well try because the rewards make it worthwhile to do so.

mellow pendant
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I like having to use orbs to access it, it keeps the orb in value.

I do agree awakeaned bosses should be high on gp/h.

What if you try and balance the orb around 1m and balance the loot at 10m/h

I don’t think the uniques should be affected, but maybe you get a blorva piece and be able to trade it in for 100 onyxbolt etc

radiant storm
dull pivot
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Idk how I feel about 10m/h with majority of that being common loot tbh.

shrewd palm
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Your opening statement is disingenuous. Awakened DT2 bosses are not the same as CG or hard-mode raids. To say so is to disregard the design philosophy and intention behind them. The awakened bosses are not supposed to be farmed repeatedly because that's not how they were designed. That's not the point of the content. The point of the content is to be so exponentially difficult that a single kill is an aspirational goal with its own reward. Therefore, whether or not farming them indefinitely is actually enjoyable was not a priority for the designers. They only have to be fun once.

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We, as a community, need to be okay with reward scaling having a cap. Just because something is difficult, rare, or aspirational, does not mean it needs to be the best possible way to make money or deal damage.

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We also need to be okay with the developers adding rewards other than gp and damage.

radiant storm
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The point of the content is to be so exponentially difficult that a single kill is an aspirational goal with its own reward.
i don't think it's "exponentially" difficult judging by the responses to the content

shrewd palm
radiant storm
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as a whole

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you're saying they're not supposed to be farmed repeatedly because that's not how they were designed

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except that's not true, because they could easily just block you from doing more than 1 kc for example

shrewd palm
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I'm sure if I tried hard enough I could find a developer interview talking about how they were free to do stuff they would normally never do specifically because they didn't have to worry about whether or not it was going to be enjoyable to kill more than once

radiant storm
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also design choices =/= permanent

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toa for example sucks both on a design level and implementation level

shrewd palm
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You can kill the awakened bosses more than once. No one's stopping you

radiant storm
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there isn't anything in the design philosophy they have implemented which would make awakened dt2 bosses infeasible to farm

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the point is to make it viable

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that's the suggestion

shrewd palm
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The design philosophy was that they didn't try and make the bosses fun to farm

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That's the point

radiant storm
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i don't think you understand what i mean

shrewd palm
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I don't think you understand what I mean

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I understand that you can farm the awakened bosses

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You can also solo Nex

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Or exclusively do 500 invocation dolo raids

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But the developers weren't trying to make those specific encounters enjoyable

radiant storm
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there's nothing in awakened dt2 which implies an active choice to make something less enjoyable

shrewd palm
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No, you're misunderstanding

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No one is saying they tried to make the bosses unfun

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I'm saying they didn't actively try and make 1000 awakened kills an enjoyable experience

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If they had tried to do that, they would be different fights than what they are

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Allowing the developers to create content that isn't supposed to be farmed indefinitely allows them to explore a design space outside of the norm

radiant storm
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based on what though? nothing changes for enjoyment between awakened and regular, so saying they didn't actively try to make awakened enjoyable implies not making their regular variants enjoyable

shrewd palm
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Have you killed the awakened bosses 1000 times?

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Because I don't think it's reasonable to say that the awakened bosses are the same experience as the normal ones in terms of enjoyment when one of them has a 1/3000 unique drop and the other has a grandmaster achievement just for a single kill.

radiant storm
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no, because there's no point, but that's not a mark of enjoyability

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drop rate vs combat achievement isn't relevant

shrewd palm
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But how can you sit there and say that grinding out a thousand awakened kc is just as fun as doing a thousand normal kc if you haven't done it?

radiant storm
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i have not played a swampletics account but i can say that completing a medium clue scroll with old clue rules is definitely not fun

shrewd palm
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Besides: that's not the point, anyway. The point is that it's healthy to allow the developers to make content that is designed with intentions other than endlessly farming it

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If we say we don't want anything that can't be viable to farm indefinitely, then all we're doing is restricting their creative freedom

radiant storm
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and it's also healthy to allow the players who have the skill level to do so, to farm said bosses if they would prefer a more skill-based approach to e.g. greenlogging

delicate anvil
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The whole suggestion was to change the way droprates worked with the awakened. Jagex needs to stop making aspirational 1nd content. The whole challenge should be moreso rewarding for its challenge, regardless of enjoyment

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Jagex didn’t think folks were going to go past 300 invo anytime soon but it was beaten within 3 hours of release. 500 Toa was 1nd content and yet team money 500s or solo 540s are farmed

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It’s good to have a consistent challenge in this game and there’s a playerbase that yearns for that feeling

shrewd palm
dull pivot
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Normal Gauntlet to CG are also good examples of why harder versions are typically rewarded more.

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Even though HMT isn't better rates than ToB on an hourly basis, it's also still repeatable and something I also wish they would buff.

toxic bramble
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Yeah I think bottom line is it would be nice for them to have a purpose past getting blorva. There's no logical incentive to do these Bosses for loot, relative to their normal variants

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I think OSRS is all about maximum efficiency alot of the time, so if we can't make an argument for the efficiency of doing them then it's unlikely to be done.

toxic bramble
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So I'm sure there are lots of ways to achieve the core goal of making this content worth repeating, but finding consensus is often difficult in this community.