Untradeable dragon tier ammo

[red cypress]

While the discussion of chargescape came up, it got me thinking of just how bad it is for end game iron's to sustain nearly any type of end game ammo or resource as often the drop table can not contain sources like that as it completely destroys the market for normal accounts, thus dragon arrows an dragon darts are all pretty unsustainable/obtainable on an ironman account who has progressed enough to obtain a tbow or need to use d darts with blow pipe. I dont think that high end gear that takes thousands of hours to obtain should be subjected to using weaker ammo like amythst all because the player has no methods of obtaining the highest tier of ammo. mains dont suffer this issue as plenty of ammo enter's the game from bots. This problem also extends to rev weps an ether as sustaining 1500 ether a death on iron is almost an hour of orks per death, you often just rather not even use the rev wep if there is lots of pkers out.

Now the solution is obviously very simple to these problems. Make a processable untradeable dragon tier ammo.
1 of the idea's i had was sunfire arrows and darts, these would be created from sunfire splinters (these splinters will quickly lose value once corrupting quivers is completed) this opens up another use an brings replayability to fortis for irons even after they finish their quiver corruption.
Sunfire ammo would be made like normal ammo just the main part is splinters. this would tie the price to the sunfire splinter and since they are untradeable will not impact the main game eco, this also allows people willing to put the effort into processing their own ammo the ability to have cheaper dragon arrows, so if they choose to. i dont think putting in the hours to obtain a tbow or venator bow to a lessser extent, should mean your subjected to less power from the weapons all because you cant buy the ammo from the ge and not given any means to actually obtain them.

[wary scarab]

is that 1 splinter per arrow/bolt

[worn summit]

I liked the idea someone posted somewhere about breaking down dragon items.
A D chain is what 250k?
Legs skirts are 160-200?
Arrows 1200?
Bolts unf 800?
Smashing a skirt into say 100bolts/arrows would be neat.
Whisper drops upto 10 skirts in a single drop and all we can do is alch them

Edit add:
If broke down into less ammo it would raise current cost of ammo.
If broke down into more ammo it would crash current price of ammo.
Gotta keep it around alch value imo

[gusty tusk]

I feel like this Sunfire thing would be better suited to an amethyst alternative so irons don't have to grind 92 mining

Cuz Sunfire splinters are p accessible honestly

And while dragon smelting idea is definitely more interesting, it would effectively be about the same as if they just sold dragon arrow tips/dart tips/unf bolts at the ranging guild for like 1800gp each or whatever.

[worn summit]

not quite, cuz it would imply required smithing to smelt it

[gusty tusk]

Oh I guess so, didn't think about that. What smithing level do you propose? Like 85-95 to matchup with fletching level?

[worn summit]

id imagine so

for players with the weapons that can use that ammo it should be high

[red cypress]

That’s the point sunfire splinters are accessible and basically will serve no purpose making them able to be turned into untradeable ammo sinks them an removes gp from the game this gives player choice on if they want to make their own arrows or buy dragon they can balance it however they want but I just think this is a great idea to preserve mainscape arrow prices and help end game irons with end game ammo problems

[north nymph]

It breaking down into less ammo would not raise the price of ammo, it would just have no effect

It should be well under alch value to account for the fact that the price of dragon ammo can naturally fluctuate

Because putting it at exactly alch value effectively puts a ceiling on the price of dragon ammo

[gusty tusk]

Ok but right now Sunfire splinters are like half the price of dragon arrow/dart tips. It would have a really huge impact on prices of dragon ammo

You can farm Sunfire splinters starting at just like 73 hunter. I don't think that is a very reasonable gate for irons to just have all the dragon ammo they want

[deft locust]

the only non obtainable item charge for end game irons nowadays is blood furies.

D arrows/darts are kinda on the brink, but considering how you dont use pipe that much anymore the d dart situation is fine imo after toa.

D arrows from colosseum also make it so you can use d arrows somewhat liberally, but having a better way to get them and remove the guilt of using them at zulrah would be nice

but end game ironman is in no way "upkeeping charges"

[wary scarab]

Smashing a skirt into say 100bolts/arrows would be neat.

uhhhh no

that would be so stupid lol

maybe if it was like, 10 or 15 bolts sure i can see that

100 is ridiculous

and even then i dont think that's necessary

[daring osprey]

why is 100 rediculous? your still loosing out on "GP" Value on mains and dragon amour is given a purpose for late game irons to use instead of it being added to the alch tab and never processed.

[red cypress]

It doesn’t because sunfire ammo is not tradeable and the trade off is if you want the cheaper arrows then you have to make them yourself on mainscape which very few people are willing to do this is a proposal to a problem for irons without impacting d arrows for mains

[north nymph]

dragon arrows have been as high as 1700 gp in the last year alone, making it 100 per would effectively put a ceiling on their price at that point

[red cypress]

Ya but if they go with a different approach of dumping accessible dragon arrows on all tables then thst will destroy prices my proposal doesn’t impact main scape at all and bots can’t control it this will also keep sunfire splinters relevant they can go steps further by making the sunfire ammo burn on use and not saved by quiver meaning if you want to make sunfire ammo then you will have to do so in bulk and since it’s untradeable your putting your time spent processing vs the gp saves by not buying d arrows

[astral cipher]

Sunfire splinters sound miserable, last thing i want is to have to grind colo after corrupting my quiver

[red cypress]

This is false o had 21k d arrows from my entire account life time I already used 7k in a few months of obtaining a t bow by using it in cm’s nex and fortis

[vapid wigeon]

tbf untradeable ammo still affects mains, like if people choose to use it for fletching training or just a cheaper option, it will still affect demand for dragon arrows

[red cypress]

It would give no exp

It’s same as processing unfinished pots

[vapid wigeon]

Again, some people will still probably use it, like the people foolish enough to currently use less-than-dragon arrows on a tbow on a main. It will have some impact

[red cypress]

Not as large as them dumping d arrows on future tables

[deft locust]

i have 1500 cms and used 10k d arrows, 20 colosseum completions and used 1.2k ish and didnt use for nex and got 15k from cms and 2k from colosseum so

[red cypress]

I’d rather avoid thst

[vapid wigeon]

bold assumption to make they'd do it xd

[deft locust]

idek where u get 21k d arrows from

sounds like u just made those numbers up ngl

[red cypress]

Duke gauntlet Larran keys

Lots of places over my entire account life time

[vapid wigeon]

Ironman tbow owner who has shot less than 100 dragon arrows ever. This is all I have in 280 days played

I've shot more than that many amethyst arrows this calendar year

And that's with 1500 duke kc

[red cypress]

I don’t think it’s fair to own a tbow on an iron and be forced to use sub par ammo because there are no reliable sources

This is further proven as they add more range str items like quiver

[vapid wigeon]

Also I will probably never fire a dragon arrow from my venator bow for the same reason

[deft locust]

from gaunt and duke u got 7.8k from gaunt + 5k from duke if you did 100% perfect kills so again made up numbers

[red cypress]

Like cool I got a quiver so now I’m still weaker than being able to use d arrows

[red cypress]

Brother I literally have the bank screenshots

I had 21k d arrows when I got my tbow last year in October

[vapid wigeon]

5k from 1500 duke

Yes, I didn't do them all perfectly, sue me

[red cypress]

Dragon ammo is an issue on irons and fact you don’t use them everywhere with your mega rare is a problem

What’s point of having a mega rare that took 3 k hours to obtain if you can’t use its full potential

[analog mauve]

i feel like the real question is why do irons create irons and then ask for things to be easier after the fact

I feel like we could do a clinical study on this

[deft locust]

did u tbow auto nex or something? with 80% save and only shooting minions (10 shots a minion) you use 8 arrows a nex == 16k which is probably the worst place to use d arrows anyway

i agree d arrows could be improved to be more obtainable

but you 100% did not shoot 21k d arrows in 8 months

[red cypress]

It has nothing to do with easier it’s asking for viable methods of obtainment

[red cypress]

I shot 7k I never claimed to use 21k

[analog mauve]

in the last year they have like doubled the amount of places you can get arrows or arrowtips from

how much easier do you want it to be ?

[deft locust]

ah so you have 14k left lmao i got 1500 cm completions in 2/3rds of that

you have fuck loads left

[red cypress]

Name one place that will give you more than 600 arrows an hour without rng checks involved

[vapid wigeon]

I already used 7k in a few months of obtaining a t bow

is what he said

[analog mauve]

thats really specific and a completely useless statement

[red cypress]

Sorry I don’t wanna spend 100 hours at duke with hopes of getting ammo to use my tbow for a few hours

[analog mauve]

welcome to ironman mode

you always have the choice to deiron

[red cypress]

I shouldn’t have to do that though

[analog mauve]

literally on a post from a day ago: "There is a separate issue that x kinda really suck to get on irons, so it would be nice if there was something to help with that"

[vapid wigeon]

I feel like the main sticking point is the contrast between the dragon ammo and other megarare weapons. Like you get way more than enough vials of blood from ToB to sustain, and the shadow uses runes

[analog mauve]

replace x with literally anything on an iron and you're right

its because you chose to create an account with restrictions

[red cypress]

Ya enjoy your bot ran economy

[analog mauve]

oou buuurn

[vapid wigeon]

To be fair a completely rational answer to that is "I do" or "I will"

[analog mauve]

good one

[red cypress]

You’d be singing a dif tune if they made bis charges or ammo untradeable an after you spent 1.7b on a tbow you’d have to grind 100 hours of goblins to use it

[vapid wigeon]

(But he doesn't)

Is his point

[analog mauve]

but I don't have to

because I'm not an Iron

because I had a choice when creating my account

[wary scarab]

i mean they added amethyst bc irons complained about not enough ways to get dragon ammunition

[analog mauve]

as did you, and as you still do

[wary scarab]

if you want that +2 str or whatever tiny amount it is

put in the time lol

100 bolts per d skirt is absurd

[vapid wigeon]

+5

[wary scarab]

ok if you want the 1 max hit put the time in

lol

[vapid wigeon]

It's pretty significant

[wary scarab]

or de-iron

[red cypress]

It’s +6 str over amyethyst and max hit loss is increased greatly as they add more range str

[vapid wigeon]

It's several maxhits with tbow

[red cypress]

It’s almost 5 max hits now maybe more

[vapid wigeon]

I don't think that's true in my gear but I think it was 3 or 4 for me

Which is max minus masori chaps and quiver

[red cypress]

I have max everything

Even without Masori helm ven ring an zar vambs my max on manticore goes from a 77 to a 73

If I use amy arrows over dragon

Using Amy arrows over dragon is = more loss than having no anguish

[vapid wigeon]

It's actually the same str difference

[wary scarab]

the average player who wishes to greenlog duke outside of pet will take 4,000 kc to do so, of which is 13,280 dragon arrows on-odds, or 20k if you get perfect kills

[vapid wigeon]

There's 3 other dt2 bosses to get virtus from

[deft locust]

tbf thats due to virtus which u get from all bosses

[wary scarab]

right but only duke drops dragon arrowtips

[red cypress]

Ok so 13k arrows for 4000 kills and that will last what few months?

[analog mauve]

welcome to [[ironman mode]]

[next kettle]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Ironman_Mode

[deft locust]

1.3 years actually for your numbers

[red cypress]

4k kills takes 400 hours

[vapid wigeon]

Yes but you're going to get virtus from other places which is going to drastically drive down the kc for green

Since that's the limiting factor there

[red cypress]

Get a tbow and use it how it’s meant to be and then come back and say there is not an ammo problem

[vapid wigeon]

Ok to be fair

[analog mauve]

I have

lol

[vapid wigeon]

Ironman is not "how it's meant to be"

[wary scarab]

ok then 930 kc which is still 4650 dragon arrows

if you exclude virtus and pet

[vapid wigeon]

That's a very small number

[wary scarab]

assembler/quiver/head+ranging or max cape makes that 5x

[analog mauve]

since you've made your IM, they've included more ways to get what you want. It's egregious to think Jagex will allow dragon items to be broken down for hundereds of ammo mats

[vapid wigeon]

I'm aware.

Believe it or not, I always assume I'm wearing an ava's when I think about the quantity of arrows

[red cypress]

Let’s not forget how awful dt2 bosses are for irons when it comes to dupes

[vapid wigeon]

wym

[red cypress]

Dupe vestiges needing 3 ingots and an additional seers ring just to even get deaths coffer

Dupe axe pieces needing all 4 bosses

[vapid wigeon]

That's not really an issue, death coffer is whatever

[analog mauve]

it really doesnt sound like you enjoy being an iron

[wary scarab]

average person gets all 3 ingots and vestige before rate for 1 roll btw

[red cypress]

Ya it’s not but it’s bad if you stay at a green logged boss

[vapid wigeon]

Not really it doesn't affect the loot to your account at all

In terms of actual useful drops

[red cypress]

I do but I don’t enjoy end game because if I have to think of using my bis is worth it then that’s an issue I don’t question using my scythe or shadow like tbow with d arrows

Personally I think tbow shouldn’t be able to use any arrows but dragon and reason it’s not like that is because dragon arrows aren’t accessible to irons

[vapid wigeon]

I mean if you're dumb enough to fire an adamant arrow from the bow you deserve it

[red cypress]

And amyethyst was created to bridge the gap but the gap has widened as they add more range str

It went from 1 max hit dif to up to 5 now and the gap keeps increasing

[deft locust]

the reason tbow can fire something other than dragon is because d arrows arent accessible to irons? thats 100% wrong

[vapid wigeon]

It's a bow

[wary scarab]

i asked someone with a much more stacked account than me for their thoughts

[vapid wigeon]

I agree that is in fact how it currently stands. This post is discussing whether you should have enough dragon arrows to do more than like gm speedrun time attempts

[red cypress]

I agree Colo helped but the arrow tips rarely show in much later waves

I have 70 claims/completions and I only got 800 tips out of it

[deft locust]

you have 9 kc

so those 61 could be wave 1-3

[red cypress]

That’s why I said claims

[deft locust]

youre just skewing the narritive by saying "claims" and relating it to your d arrow output

[red cypress]

Regardless it’s a problem

Content creators who play for a living like rice cup has to spend months doing post 99 slayer konar for brimstone keys

To maybe get some tips

On top of the time it takes to process the arrows itself

[deft locust]

takes like a few hours to process the arrows its nothing, and unless ur using d arrows at zulrah (where max hit means less) youre not doing brimmy keys for d arrows

you get plenty passively

[red cypress]

L tell rice cup that in his toa prep video

[deft locust]

pre toa like before dt2 and colosseum?

[wary scarab]

this is misleading

because the real rate is ```
|Output21 = Dragon arrowtips
|Output21num = 79.09130706691681

per kc

9 kc would therefore be ~ 711.8217636022513 arrowtips

[red cypress]

79 tips per clear on average so 79 per 30 mins or 160 per hour

[wary scarab]

so actually you were a tiny bit lucky

[gusty tusk]

Staying on topic here, Sunfire splinters are not the solution to this problem

[daring osprey]

Ok, how is having a cap on the value of an item a bad thing when high alchemy exists. That is an entirely arbitrary number that gets attached to items that then sets it's price if it has no other use cases. All this suggestion does is move this arbitrary value of an item into a valuable resource that is needed for pvm.

[north nymph]

high alchemy is a floor on the price of an item

pretty different thing

why not remove the GE and just let everyone turn gold directly into whatever item they want so irons can have the exact same gameplay as mains while keeping their precious helms?

[gusty tusk]

While I do think this problem deserves a solution, I think it's in a weird spot because tbow only uses 20% of the "charges" that the other megarares do

[north nymph]

why should the price of dragon arrows be arbitrarily capped in mainscape just because endgame irons don't like their supply situation

[north nymph]

tbf I don't feel like thats entirely relevant for dragon ammo, because dragon ammo only drops from bosses anyway. you can "fix" it by making it 5x as rare as it would be if assembler didnt exist

[north nymph]

and I mean im not even opposed to giving irons better access to dragon ammo im just pointing out that some proposed solutions here would significantly affect mainscape for no reason. Whats the point of having an mmo economy if jagex constantly adds caps and floors because of people who don't participate in that economy? Its silly.

[gusty tusk]

Yeah it's just, I want to make dragon ammo more accessible to irons, but if it takes just as much time to make blood runes for 1h of scythe as it does to get arrows for 1h of tbow, then things are going p well I think

The main difference is that you can just buy tons of bloods, souls, and chaos runes for the other megarares if you don't want to grind them out. But dragon arrows are a lot more limited

Nothing stopping an endgame iron from just burning 50m on shadow charges and not runecrafting at all

Absolutely is the case for tbow tho

[red cypress]

Its funny you think there is a mmo eco when its entirely ran by bots the reason there is a floor/ceiling is because of how many bots can farm it into that state.

[red cypress]

it takes dastically longer to get 1hour of d arrows vs 1 hour of scythe charges

[gusty tusk]

I mean sure, 3-4x longer is drastic but colosseum gets you 240 in under 2h

It's just cuz there's not any way to farm just dragon arrows like there is for runes.

[red cypress]

240 arrows in 2 hours l0l

[north nymph]

yeah well and iron is pointless because everyone just buys services so why change anything 🤷

[vapid wigeon]

"Everyone"

[north nymph]

All irons use services, just like bots run the entire mainscape economy 🙂

[red cypress]

im a strong believer that cox mega scales and boosting irons in that manner is bug abuse and should be bannable.
Along with any other boosting.

However only people i seen actually do it is content creators who want to rush end game to milk a hcim series or something.

[gusty tusk]

I mean, 1 hour of soul rune crafting gets you about enough to use shadow for 1 hour, and that doesn't include the chaos runes. Maybe like 30-50 minutes to make the blood runes to use 1h of scythe, but that doesn't include vials of blood

So 1h of tbow costing 1.5-2h of grind isn't even that weird

But scythe is great for tob, which gets you lots of vials of blood. Similar to tbow being good for cox, which gets you lots of dragon arrows.

[wary scarab]

i think that's fine

[astral cipher]

biggest load of bs ive heard lol

[red cypress]

Revisting this after seeing a 250 col quiver loot tab it only including 9100 arrows means that arrows are still not sustainable on iron

[wary scarab]

i don't think they're supposed to be, honestly

[flint fox]

Time to introduce Dragon Dragons. A tier above rune dragons. They drop dragon stuff at higher rates.

[red cypress]

Then thats a design problem, because mega rares are balanced around having their max potential, being unable to use strongest ammo all because there is no reasonable methods to obtain for normal players is a problem(this issue dont exist for mains because of bots). the two items which are supplied by bots that have awful obtainment methods is blood shards and dragon ammo. everything else is pretty reasonable.

Amythest was made to combat the lack of d arrows and darts for irons, but as they add more an more range str its now noticeably a big dps loss over not having dragon arrows. it wasnt that big many years ago but now its 4-5 max hits or more depending on the content.

Blood shards for example ive been afk at the vyres for up to 16 hours a day now and my last drop was Wes, i worked 12 hours wes/thurs/friday and afked during my raid on wow at night which was another 4 hours and i got 1 blood shard which means ive now commited about 50 hours to trying to get a nother blood shard

[red cypress]

We dont need anything like this, they can simply make dragon bones breakable into d arrows that are untradeable. this sinks bones and also opens up the ability to reliably farm d arrows on an iron.

Untradeable dragon tier ammo similar to how broad arrows are made

It doesnt impact the main market, and if mains want cheaper arrows they can go though the trouble of processing them themself which is several hours.

[flint fox]

Eh I dunno farming green dragons for best in slot twisted bow ammo feels sort of off.

[red cypress]

Would prob be limited to high tier bones, like superior/hydra

I suggested the sunfire ammo to sink sunfire shards and keep colo relevent for ironmen

[flint fox]

Eh that’s one way I suppose. I will say though for mains the twisted bow is the strongest of the mega rares and it has the lowest upkeep cost by far. Shadow is like 950k and Scythe is 725k per hour. Tbow is not even 300k per hour. I know this is an issue and solution focused on ironmen, but I do think TBow should have some more costly form of charging or ammo to bring its use per hour more in line with the others.

[red cypress]

Reason it dont is because of irons, if tbow was only usable with d arrows it would be an uproar for methods to obtain arrows. they can make the cost to use similar to other mega rares, but untill they give a way to reasonably obtain said charges they wont.

scythe faced the same problem and they made it better an more useable, because getting blood runes was 100s of hours of hoping worlds. scar ess fixed the blood rune issue which fixed the scythe sustainment issue.

[regal prairie]

Didn't read everything but there are plenty of good ideas are in here that I believe give options to fix the concern.

Definitely support.