Learning new bosses is not rewarding

[uncut silo]

I recently thought to get into doing the DT2 bosses and died a couple times, it was at that point (after 5 deaths) that I was reminded that you have to pay big sums to get your gear back, as I was unable to retrieve my gear because I had burned through my small cash stack.
This is quite harsh and disheartening for people learning content, not even Inferno or 2 out of 3 raids makes you pay to get your gear back.
I died 5 times learning Vardorvis but managed to kill it 50 times, it cost me 5x420k to get my loot back each time just because I want to give myself my best shot at killing it (mind you my gear is just bandos with whip)
This really discourages me, and from what I've gathered from the in game chat, also others from trying out new content.

Idk if the death the mechanic should be reworked or removed since dying in CoX, content that yields way more gp/h and you even can get carried in (not learning the game) doesn't punish you for dying, whilst trying to learn any solo boss does. Same for Toa, you can easily get invos above 450 without touching the hardcore invocation, you wipe twice and safely back out costing you nothing.

While solo content is heavily punished for being learned.
I urge you to think yourself how this is for new players, or players who are trying to get into harder content, they get punished heavily for attempts if they fail.

Imo this should be reworked if not removed.
Or the cost for getting these items back reduced.
But if removing isn't an option nor lowering the fee, how about that the first 100kc or whichever arbitrary amount at a boss don't make you have to pay for getting your gear back.

idk how the discord side of osrs thinks but in my clan and whilst talking with strangers around osrs they do seem to agree.

My thought was to learn the boss to earn gp, instead I was left in debt that I had to sell gear to get my gear back.
How is that a pleasant experience for anyone.

Let me know what you think.

[formal bear]

the first 5kc at dt2 bosses already drastically reduce the cost for getting your stuff back

[sacred comet]

The cost is a bit steep but that's good tbh, if anything the cost of failing game wide is too low and things like cox and toa shouldn't have 0 or opt in wipe fees.

The DT2 bosses are not new player / entry bosses. It's content designed for slightly more experienced players

[formal bear]

also, you can take down your risk massively without affecting your dps at all by using torso instead of bcp 🤷

[sacred comet]

Maybe I'm just out of touch but by the time a player has done a lot of content , 2m on death fees shouldn't be bankrupting them

[formal bear]

• bring a tab to teleport out

[uncut silo]

I don't have the time to grind a lot in this game and don't have that much GP on hand, anytime I'd put myself to learn something new in this game I always have to sell gear or supplies just to cover deaths fees, excluding pots and supplies

[uncut silo]

That's a good point, tho most of my deaths have been getting stacked out really quickly. But I do think this can already reduce some death counts

[uncut silo]

I did this by bringing torso and dragonplatelegs and a DFS to be more tanky and my killtimes doubled making me use more supplies (which isn't a death fee at least)

from the 50 ish i've done I usually manage with 1 thrall and a half. but in the budget setup I needed 3 each kc

I wanted to show the deaths but it seems you can't upload images

[formal bear]

You need a certain rank to be able to post images

[uncut silo]

Most of the gear i have is also loaned for example as I no longer have the time to grind in this game.

[uncut silo]

thank you

[formal bear]

In any case I do agree that 5kc is a little rough and it should have been more like 10kc to get the learner discount but

[uncut silo]

That's exactly why I want to get into them and the more difficult content but this discourages me from trying as I don't want to be stuck in loops of selling more and more gear to pay for death fees

[uncut silo]

I didn't know such a mechanic was already in place. it certainly wasn't noticable for me

[formal bear]

It's only if you die before 5kc

and if you go to your grave

[uncut silo]

I walked to my grave each death

I'm not good at point and click games like runescape. I'm more familiar with console and controller gaming. But I enjoy playing with my friends and want to learn bit more of this game.

But this experience is a bit off putting as the post probably conveyed. I do appreciate the tip on the 1click teleport out.

[formal bear]

1click tele out is not foolproof ofc

and i would really recommend going to your grave instead of death if you weren't already doing that

[uncut silo]

yes, I wanted to share the stacked deaths but I don't seem to have the right to post images

They were mainly axe deaths learning to weave around them and getting hit 18/29/3/3

enraged phase can get really hectic

another death was a stack of 31/34

[sacred comet]

That's fair, but the answer is to get better at the game first before throwing yourself at profitable content that's above your current ability

I get wanting to try everything, but if you can't do something consistently without dying then the answer is to improve or get more resources before learning

[uncut silo]

I recently got my own infernal cape after sending attempts on and off for 2 years. I now want to learn other content but the aformentioned issues make it disheartening

The gear i used for it was loaned to me (full crystal and bofa)

I want to get better at the challenging content the game has to offer but gp is a limiting factor for me who doesn't have the time anymore to grind hard and get gp. at most I can maybe do 1 or 2 raids if they're 30 mins each a day with friends. I don't RWT and buy BIS like torva and scythe to do said content. even just bandos is already expensive to learn content in. This is felt differently for people ofc who do have the time or resources for this

[sacred comet]

I can appreciate why that would be frustrating, but that's not really something the end game content should be balanced around?
1 hour to play and an account with almost no GP is something you need to resolve before throwing yourself at end game content

Even if its just using a few play sessions to do content like nex which will make you like 100-300m a week with limited playtime

[formal bear]

if you have decent farming a herb run can easily make 300k so enough to pay for the occasional death

[sacred comet]

Player skill progression, character stats progression and character gear/wealth progression are 3 factors that are going to impact your ability to do things. You either need to just make money before doing challenging stuff or just get a loan from friends

[uncut silo]

I don't want the point to derail too much as I agree that a death fee is fine. But not for a learning phase. It's the learning phase I'm trying to suggest a solution for. I have 3k kc at vorkath for example when i die there if i don't pay attention idm paying bc I should know better by then. But i have only 1 kc at leviathan for example and during the quest I died a lot trying it. it was also expensive. I don't dare go do that boss now as I know each failed attempt will cost me dearly.

[sacred comet]

You can die like 300 times before the ultor ring drop before you're in a loss making position

150 times for all the other bosses

[formal bear]

im confused you say that dying at leviathan during the quest was expensive

because deaths during the quest are super discounted

like i paid under 10k to get my gear back at all of the bosses

are you letting death expire your grave and fetching items from death?

because then you pay the whole fee and then some

[uncut silo]

I worded that wrong, I mean that my comming attmepts will be expensive as I died a lot during the quest trying to get the quest done. going there now will be expensive just trying to learn it

and that boss had a lot of fast deaths iirc

[uncut silo]

No i instantly walk back trying not to die to somthing stupid along the way

[sacred comet]

What I'm saying is this view is mostly coming from the fact you have a very small cash stack for your stage of the game.

If you actually had the same amount of time as other late game players doing similar content (learner or not) , then you wouldn't see the death fee as a major obstacle

[formal bear]

for the record if you die again with a grave (so not vorkath, zulrah, etc) you dont lose your shit or anything

though idk if it keeps the lowered fees

[uncut silo]

Yes, that's exactly my point. People who don't have as much time to play but want to, and want to learn get punished by this system the most.

The bots that don't die farming bosses don't pay this gold sink, it's actual players, people who pay for it. hence why I suggest that the learning phase be made less severe

I want the death mechanic to be more even across the board as you also mentioned. WHy are Cox and Toa excluded from this death fee

[uncut silo]

good to know, tho i still don't like risking dying trying to retrieve my items. had that happen once when I died at monkies bursting and on the way back i died and had to run there again and was too slow. that was my mistake back then, had to answer a urgent matter and didn't teleport out, me dying there to my own stupidity idm paying for those mistakes

[sacred comet]

Bots are irrelevant for this topic.

People only get punished heavily if they don't want to progress their bank and general ability before diving in 🤷🏿‍♂️. It's a personal choice that is honestly very easy to solve

[uncut silo]

it's only the learning aspect that i'm worried about.

[formal bear]

also for the record if you log out your timer pauses

for your grave

[sacred comet]

Cox is probably just because it's the first raid, and toa is equal to the most harsh wipe fee. If anything it's opt in option should be taken away past entry mode

If you're asking for things to be consistent then both of the raids should have gravestone fee like every other boss in the game where you die

[uncut silo]

it's weird how you agree and disagree at the same time.

It pushes people away from playing the same game we all play.

You agree yourself that ppl who do have a lot of time to play don't feel that fee as much.
But the ppl that don't do.

Saying that bots don't play into this is weird as a gold sink is made because bots bring too much gp into the game, but it's people dying that pay the death fee since bots don't die doing the content they do (except some in the wildy or badly programmed ones)

[sacred comet]

I can understand why you feel that way but also disagree if its a self inflicted issue.

You're skipping a key part of account progression that the standard learner should have done by the time they get to content thats charging 100k - 500k death fees

[uncut silo]

Consistent can also mean that no raid has a death fee. Since 2 raids don't include a death fee (toa only if you enable hardcore)
I don't feel like learning ToB because I don't have time to grind for gp, I want to play with my friends who already loaned me gear, do they now also perhaps have to pay for my mistakes learning content? the death fee again only harms learning ppl the most in the beginning.

[sacred comet]

And bots are irrelevant when talking about learner death fees. Same way people using cheat clients are irrelevant

[uncut silo]

Learning a new boss isn't a self inflicted issue.
I mentioned that I have no problem in paying a fee past a point, heck even dying to my own stupidity I have no issue with.
It's only the learning aspect I am trying to adress

[uncut silo]

It's a bit wrong to wipe them away as you'll end up with less ppl playing and more cheaters/bots if new ppl get scared this way. I made the same post on reddit and some there also admit that they don't want to tackle harder content because learning costs them much

not everyone has the time to build the best cash stack and get all the BIS gear. Do you really want to exclude ppl in that regard?

I'd rather a game be friendly to it's learners but still punish mistakes and own fault.

If i die to giant mole because I'm afking then yes that's deserved and I should pay a death fee

It's just about making a grace window for the early kc's and learning newer content that I'm trying to argue for

[sacred comet]

Death to every boss not in a raid has a cost. A stupidly high one if you don't want to run back.

Vorkath has a cost
Phosani has a cost
Tob has a cost
Hydra has a cost
Gg has a cost
Sepulchre has a cost
Hespori has a cost
Nex has a cost

Basically a majority of content in the game Has a cost to dying. Cox , toa invo and CG are the exceptions

[uncut silo]

and or that the death mecanic be more evenly applied to it's content

[sacred comet]

So learners on all the above have always had to pay death fees.

DT2 is just harder content with more late game mechanics and higher fees. But at that point you're meant to have a reasonable bank and skill level where dying 20-30 times isn't a big deal

Especially when the uniques are 80-200m

[uncut silo]

Zulrah has the first 50kc be cheaper

why isn't this applied to other content as well in the same margin

why are 5kc considered enough learning at vardorvis but zulrah, a now outdated boss with new gear since trivialising the fight gets a bigger grace window for its learners

[sacred comet]

Because they probably realised it was silly 🤷🏿‍♂️

Part of being a learner is being prepared for failure

And not being babied into 50kc

[uncut silo]

I'm not asking for the death fee to be removed. only for a rebalance and allowing learners to learn the ropes in the beginning without the steep cost just to deaths. the supply cost is for some already too much

[sacred comet]

I mean you can suggest it all you want. You just asked for thoughts.

And the thought from my pov is that learning end game content with the very best rewards shouldn't be cheap/free

You're either going to pick it up after 10-30 deaths and lose 15m on your way to a 100m+ unique

[uncut silo]

it has nothing to do with being "babied" the fight is still as hard as it is. It gives people who learn a chance to. Idk it seems this is derailing. From how you feel about it I think you have a lot of time in this game and don't have an issue, but it's quite disheartening to see that you don't care about other ppl being given a chance to learn the game in a safer way leading to more ppl doing said content and having in turn more ppl to play with.

I am interested in your thought

[sacred comet]

Or realise your not good enough and go back to easier content to improve the base skills first

[uncut silo]

I see where you come from as well, tho I'm just dissapointed how you don't seem to be interested in having learners have a grace window. So we'll end with being able to disagree

I have an infernal cape i worked for 2 years

I wouldn't say im not skilled

[sacred comet]

The grace window is the content they do prior to that point

[uncut silo]

I just don't have the time to grind as much as others do

[sacred comet]

They aren't forced into a 500k fee for everything

[uncut silo]

nothing prepares you for vardorvis except it's fight

if inferno had a death fee i would have never done it or gotten the cape

If it had a death fee i can imagine more ppl just buying it instead of learning themselves

Inferno is a learn friendly place, why should death fees not be applied there then?

[sacred comet]

It's a different skill set to learn

[uncut silo]

exactly

I am trying to learn this new skillset as vardorvis fight is nothing like any other fight

[sacred comet]

Inferno is learning how to solve waves and basic 1t alt flicking

[uncut silo]

they did a good job with the DT2 bosses

and have them be mechanically interesting, unlike previous bosses who are in comparrison more bland

[sacred comet]

Vardovis is kind of like phosani where you're reacting to the boss and making decisions based on what it shows

[uncut silo]

yes, and that skillset doesn't per se translate into any other content

[uncut silo]

And it's that initial learn phase that I want to be easier for other ppl and including myself

[sacred comet]

So when I say improve base skills, it's more the transferable ones. Doing Inferno doesn't mean you gave the skills to jump into all content with no issues

[sacred comet]

It only really translated to understanding attack timing and npc pathing is what I found. Useful when trying to figure out mechanics without a guide

[sacred comet]

Honestly, just use some play sessions to build up a bank for the challenge you want to do

[uncut silo]

I agree. but why should Inferno not have a death fee then?

[sacred comet]

Probably should have

[uncut silo]

I would if i had the time for it

[sacred comet]

You do have time for it. Just choose content that's profitable

I only really play 2-3 hours a day every other day now. But if I do something like nex prior to blorva attempts then I'm making the most of my resources

I'm not saying your experience isn't a potential issue for some. I just don't think people should expect to be doing late game content with little resources on the account

[uncut silo]

You don't know hm time i have and assume I have time for it..

[sacred comet]

i mean you said here you can do 1-2 raids a day if they're 30 mins each. thats basically you saying 1 hour a day?

1 hour a day in mass toa / 5 man nex / rev caves or even something stable like vorkath will build you up anywhere between 10-100m a week

[uncut silo]

yes, but not every day of the week. during the week its often rare. today was a rare case since i had to see the doctor and wasn't in for work

I've done vorkath for 3k kc already, doing any more of it will burn me out and make me turn away from the game.

I haven't delved into pvp related content yet, And seeing as death fees are a issue for me (and some others on the reddit post i made) I wouldn't want to go into rev caves atm

I was just surprised by how fast my cash stack dissapeard learning the boss before even 50kc

[red hound]

This content is harder, and far more profitable, than some of the other bosses with more forgiving death fees.

It's entirely reasonable for it to have high fees to offset the profit you're making later once you do learn it.

[uncut silo]

Vardorvis is only worth the grind if you do it for a long time or get lucky as the special DT2 loot mechanic rolls diffrently. Doing a "perfect kill" and getting mind runes and lava runes doesn't feel rewarding to learn the boss.

I'm not arguing that the bosses are good gp in my post, I'm arguing that the learning phase is harsh on ppl who don't have as much time to play the game and therefor grind gp.

[sacred comet]

its not harsh on people with little time though, its harsh on people with no gp

time and gp arent really the same thing.

same way inferno would have seemed harsh if you didnt get your 100m+ gear loan over 2 years

learning the late game stuff is never cheap

[terse mirage]

I dunno I feel like the Zulrah death mechanic should be global for instanced bosses. Prior to 50 KC it’s free, after 50 KC it costs you. This feels like a reasonable way to approach it, where learning the boss isn’t punishing to your cash stack, but after you’ve gotten a handful of kills under your belt you then start to suffer financially for continuing to fail.

Also most of these instanced bosses with death banks have fixed costs, depending on their theoretical tier. Zulrah, Vorkath, Hydra all cost 100k. Grotesque Guardians and Hespori on the other hand only costs 50 or 25k. You could probably argue these DT2 bosses are a step up from that first tier and should have death banks costing 200-250k?

[sacred comet]

i guess you have 2 extremes.

Corrupted gauntlet with 0 death fees , 0 run back time after dying and constant profit per kill prior to unique... or DT2 bosses which have 500k death fee , run back and little proift prior to the 30 hour unique

i agree something like CG is learner friendly and i would even say its death mecahnics should be extended to entry level stuff like sarachnis , new rat boss and maybe even the new barrows tier content coming out so that genuine pvm learners have an easier time starting off and getting a good foundation

i just dont think learning late game content should be treated the same way as learning early-mid game bosses because you are suppose to have good gear , cash and player skills going into it.

its why at the very end game they even started charging players just to attempt the kc (awakened bosses). they expect you to have the resources to do it

[red hound]

What gear are you bringing? I'm trying to figure out how you're risking 420k while not being in nearly max gear

[sacred comet]

im priced out of shit like that, but realistically i should have the resources if im going for that tier of content

[formal bear]

I think 50kc is too much and I'd be more a fan of like. 10, 15 or 20. Currently for dt2 bosses it's 5 which is too little imo

[red hound]

Like this is assuming you're not using an Ultor (don't have Berserker ring in bank and not buying one, lightbearer is same risk)
And it's only risking 230k

If you downgrade to barrows gloves + bloodfury you're risking not even 150k

You can get a crazy good setup while learning that is maybe 10% dps decrease over whatever you're currently bringing to learn in.

Genuinely just confused.

[formal bear]

oh right praying protect item will also reduce your death fee at almost no cost

[red hound]

You can get down to risking 22k in gear that's not even 10% worse than Torva/Torture/Ferocious gloves

There's plenty of ways to get around risking a ton if you aren't competent at the boss yet.

Reducing fees for the people who do want to use their max gear when learning isn't the way to go about it

Learning in less risky gear is just a common thing to do

[zenith edge]

yea…. noty

[terse mirage]

Eh I think 50 KC is a reasonable point to start charging. At those 5-10 even 20 kills a mediocre player is still often screwing up moves or prayer switches and getting killed because they’re not far enough into the rhythm of farming the boss to be used to all the typical moves you need to make.

[uncut silo]

Good tip

thanks for that

[uncut silo]

I fully agree with that reasoning

[uncut silo]

i can send you that in private i think

[uncut silo]

I can also reason with that honestly

[uncut silo]

Not having that much time is what leads to less gp

back when I had the time to play loads (when i was getting those vorkath KCs for the pet) I had no issue with each death and those deaths being fixed cost also helped. going from vorkath to vardorvis for solo boss getting 4x charged was just a shock and now when I don't have time to grind out a lot. Idk how many hours you have in the game but to give a comparison I am around 120days played and I only joined around the end of 2019 and been playing on and off. Only when i have time do i refresh my membership to play. there have been periods of me not playing for 6 months. to give an idea

[sacred comet]

and if they decide to stay instead of leaving at that point....-500k 🙂

post your first few kc you should have a decent idea of the mechanics , even if you cant do multi kill trips at that point

i just dont see why people should get a free 50 clears before having to face the consequence of wiping

[uncut silo]

some rough spawns don't happen in the first few kcs

[sacred comet]

the concepts remain the same.

[atomic forge]

if you 'dont have much gp' you should get a torso then

[uncut silo]

I have a torso

still missing the point

I'm not going into that topic again

[sacred comet]

thats a player issue then. because even if you play a few hours every few days , you can choose to do easier content that generates a lot of GP

if you choose to play few hours , and choose not to build up GP in the small time you do play , and choose not to use bonds and choose not to get a loan....

then thats not content punishing learners. thats just an account without resources due to player choice

[atomic forge]

i'm personally not a fan of the whole "i don't have the time to grind a lot", the game shouldn't be made inherently easier as a result of that

however, the part that really confuses me is how you were able to get an infernal cape but can't learn vardorvis... isn't like, wave 63 considered a fair bit harder than vardo?

[uncut silo]

I'm not asking for the boss or the game to be made easier. It's about accessibility.

[uncut silo]

they're 2 entirely different things and inferno took me over 2 years to do

[sacred comet]

DT2 bosses probably shouldnt be accessible to people with no GP and no time then. its not content for them

duke is more accessible if someone meets that criteria

harder to die there and better base drops to build your money up

[uncut silo]

A harsh stance to take to gatekeep ppl with less gp

[sacred comet]

gatekeeping is fine if the req is reasonable. standards shouldnt be dragged down for people who dont play often

[atomic forge]

confused on how you risk 420k per death, isn't this like, 40mil+ at a minimum in terms of gear being brought

[sacred comet]

all you need is 20m cash and suddenly your GP barrier is gone

[uncut silo]

the standard doesn't get lowered, the boss retains it's difficulty. The boss and fight don't become easier. Ppl get more of a chance to attempt a boss

[atomic forge]

actually technically itd be like 70mil at a minimum since you keep 3 items on death

[sacred comet]

the standard is to have enough GP to afford death fees as you learn. the cost of that depends on how good you are.

if you dont have 10-20m for the learning curve you need then you dont meet the standard. sorry. try an easier boss and build the account more

or spend £20 on bonds 🤷🏿‍♂️

[atomic forge]

pedantically speaking, only cox is excluded and it was jagex's first raid

toa is evidently not the best designed, and pointing out that it gives you free deaths is... part of that reason

[sacred comet]

or simply just teleport rather than die. idk

[atomic forge]

being able to do a 400 rl raid without risking anything isn't a positive lol

[uncut silo]

You can make the most profitable raid in the game have no death fee by just not enabling hardcore run so that argument isnt that strong

that's what I mean there's no consistency

[atomic forge]

sadly that isn't even my argument

[sacred comet]

outlier

[uncut silo]

and that's why I advocate for consistency

[sacred comet]

this is the norm

[atomic forge]

but like, most content has a cost for dying

[uncut silo]

it isn't. It should be the norm

but it isnt atm

[sacred comet]

unles we are arguing every boss that doesnt give free deaths is suddenly not accessible

[atomic forge]

it shouldn't be though

[uncut silo]

You think it shouldn't but Kingz think it should

He prefers if more things cost more on death

to incentivize a more risk reward factor if iirc

[atomic forge]

i wasn't saying "shouldn't be" in terms of "it shouldn't be the norm", i meant "it shouldn't be that content is free to learn"

if you risk nothing to learn content, why even have a risk to begin with

[uncut silo]

I'm not against that concept, I'm just not for that concept when you just start learning content

[atomic forge]

in that case dying should just let you keep all items, no questions asked

[sacred comet]

almost everything has a cost of dying. toa , CG , inferno/fight caves and cox are the exceptions. the other 50+ bosses have death fees from the go

[uncut silo]

it's the same reason why they added entry mode tob

[atomic forge]

how would you define the threshold for when someone isn't learning content anymore

[uncut silo]

or should that be removed so players can't learn it?

[atomic forge]

wasnt entry tob added for the one quest

[uncut silo]

why should DT2 not have a bit more accessible way to learn the bosses

[low ice]

if the fee of dying at a boss youre learning is too much for you to afford, you are not ready for that content

[atomic forge]

entry tob is not really that much like regular tob in terms of mechanics

[uncut silo]

It was added so people could learn the basic mechanics

[sacred comet]

thats what ive been saying lol

[atomic forge]

because dt2 is the hardest quest in the game

[sacred comet]

not all gatekeeping is bad. it just means its a tougher bit of content

[atomic forge]

and gives you rewards to re-access parts of the quest in the form of boss fights

why would it be lenient exactly

[formal bear]

honestly still not clear how you end up with 420k death fees

[sacred comet]

you have the quest boss. you cleared easy mode when you beat it

at most i would say the quest boss shouldnt have a fee

[low ice]

ironman death fees are halved. Could just make an iron

[formal bear]

it basically doesn't

first 5kc your death fees are drastically reduced at dt2 bosses

[sacred comet]

but after that point on , you got a rough idea on what to do. clear it , teleport or pay 500

[formal bear]

to the tune of <10k per death

[sacred comet]

are they?

[formal bear]

ye

tho i think it would be fair to increase it to 10kc or so

[sacred comet]

even better then. seems accessible to me.
1 easy mode from quest. 4 cheap runs to get a bit more familiar

500k per L from that point on

[atomic forge]

yea id say removing quest recovery fee entirely is fair

this reminds me of when that one guy in #game-questions was asking why they keep paying 500k per death when the boss "makes less than minimum wage" or whatever the exact quote was

[formal bear]

the only silly thing is that if your grave expires and you collect from death

[atomic forge]

and then it turned out they were in max gear

[formal bear]

the reduction doesn't apply

so you're fucked if you do that

honestly its kind of wild that death still doesnt have a way to tell you how much it'd cost to reclaim from him

[uncut silo]

after around that kc i stopped dying or maybe around 20 it's just those initial deaths when learning new content. I don't die anymore now but I've seen others confirm that they don't dare to attempt content and just don't engage with it at all bc it's too expensive to learn for them. it's a shame that ppl don't get to even try these amazing bosses they added

just because they're too broke in a game

[sacred comet]

i made that mistake once and only once. thats the only death mechanic thats BS

[uncut silo]

being broke irl is one thing but being gatekept in a game bc of gp is really sad

[atomic forge]

are you an ironman?

[low ice]

theyre not ready for the boss

[atomic forge]

if you're an ironman i can see why one would be upset at death fees

[uncut silo]

I am not an ironman

[sacred comet]

then make GP!

[atomic forge]

since yknow, ironman money making is actually quite a bit worse than on a main

[uncut silo]

I don't agree with you

[low ice]

Then pay up when you die

[uncut silo]

i don't have the time to play that much to make loads of gp anymore

[sacred comet]

you cant rock up with a whip + bandos and no cash and say the game design is at fault

[atomic forge]

one hour of muspah is like 2.5mil or so

that's 5 attempts

[sacred comet]

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Money_making_guide/Combat

[formal bear]

i just really don't get where you're getting 420k per death tbh

[sacred comet]

literally the top 25 options solves that problem

[atomic forge]

can you screenshot your risk

because i dont know where 420k comes from

[uncut silo]

if you can't bring any decent arguments to the table i'm just going to ignore you. there have been plenty ppl in here already that came with good suggestions and tips. you're just being annoying

[formal bear]

like sure add 100k to this for bcp instead of torso, 10k for dfs, but thats still only about 130k?

[uncut silo]

the top 25 options all have the same mechanic

aside from cox and toa

and gauntlet

[sacred comet]

if there were not so many ways to make money in the game i would be a lot more understanding that casual players may be hit hard

but there are so many choices

[low ice]

thats a perfectly good suggestion. Either get to the point youre ready for the boss (then the fee is not a problem) or make enough gp to pay for your deaths (bonds, other money making methods etc)

[sacred comet]

not having 20m isnt a valid reason in 2024

[atomic forge]

gauntlet has no material risk, but you risk your time

[uncut silo]

everything else in the top 25 have same said mechanics, all bosses i've yet to learn because I haven't had the time for it yet

[atomic forge]

if you die in gauntlet as a learner you lose a solid portion of time

[uncut silo]

idm investing time

[formal bear]

tbh if you die in vard you also waste a bunch of time because you have to runback twice lol

[uncut silo]

so long as i can play the game its fun

[atomic forge]

is there a reason you dont mind investing time but you do mind investing time into making money supposedly

or do i not understand

[uncut silo]

but that i have to offer up the little spare time i have to grind a boss till burnout just to afford learning death fees is just sad design

[sacred comet]

not if you buy 10 rings before hand

[formal bear]

also in the top 25:

• cox
• cg
• wildy bosses (you dont risk anything)
• demonics (you cant die)

[uncut silo]

I only log on to either play with friends, do a raid or 2 on the weekends. maybe during the week if lucky

[sacred comet]

there are enough easy bosses to grind that this really doesnt hold weight

[atomic forge]

i mean i'm 0/7 still to zulrah, i'm going to come back when i'm more ready

[formal bear]

assuming you have the tablet 😔

[atomic forge]

i might not have an item recovery fee but that shit take stime to regear lol

[sacred comet]

if you dont like vorkath, do 2 hours of muspah, or do 8 man toa for a near 100% chance of a purples split

[atomic forge]

id rather pay even 500k than have to manually regear sometimes

[sacred comet]

but you cant just do nothing and claim anything gated by low amounts of GP is unfair

[uncut silo]

I haven't done muspah yet so i'd be learning that boss as well. I've only done the quest encounter

[atomic forge]

could also do herb runs to fund deaths

can you screenshot your risk

[sacred comet]

go and learn it then. its easier and lower death fees as its a mid level boss

[atomic forge]

i dont know how on earth you risk 420k

[uncut silo]

it's weird how you can be so against the first few kcs being a bit more forgiving

[sacred comet]

its probably what you should be doing before going vardovis tier

[sacred comet]

it is forgiving. you're just being cheap if im being honest

[uncut silo]

maybe I am cheap bc I don't have the gp

[sacred comet]

accessible should just mean there is not outragous entry requirment to even attempt the content

you have access to the boss. you just dont have the access you want if you keep dying and never built your bank in the last 2-3 years

[formal bear]

reposting the risk (sorry i didn't see your message req 10 minutes ago)

[atomic forge]

i see

well torso from bcp saves a bit, faceguard is not really much better than serp/regular nezzy if you're trying to save money

dont know why on earth you have an avernic

[uncut silo]

yeah those sollutions were already laid out and have been helpful

[formal bear]

berserker ring is better dps and significantly less risk due to the way it's calculated btw

[uncut silo]

I got that gifted way back

[formal bear]

over 10m cost is 100k fee, but if its over 1m and under 10m the fee is only 10k

[atomic forge]

idk about mains but uims are usually told to drop or alch ring of suffering bc its dead content in a lot of places

[uncut silo]

Someone also said elsewhere that lightbearer is a good alternative

[formal bear]

yeah either works

but so despite bring being a third of the cost it's only a 10th of the risk

[uncut silo]

yeah, those tips have been useful and i thanked them for it

[uncut silo]

is bringing dfs worth at all?

increasing your defences

[atomic forge]

its like justiciar in this case, not worth

faster boss death = less damage taken

[uncut silo]

hm.. i see.

[atomic forge]

and vardorvis has an attack accuracy roll of

73406

[uncut silo]

yeah, idk if you read it but when I went with cheaper gear and used dfs to up defence kills were twice as long

i don't have anything to compare that accuracy roll to

so that number doesn't tell me much

[atomic forge]

the player's defence roll at most is like

35k or something

which means effectively you're getting hit what like

[uncut silo]

from the tips of other ppl i've been given good information

[atomic forge]

50% of the time

[uncut silo]

I'll send you the result of their advice

[delicate crest]

Bro ain’t no way this is real

[atomic forge]

also im pretty sure d def has better defensive bonuses than dfs

[delicate crest]

The boss has drops that are worth a lot and you’re surprised there’s a death fee

[uncut silo]

i'm not surprised there's a death fee

if you're not going to read the actual post i won't be arguing with you

[delicate crest]

You want it more accessible learning wise

Surely in the 50 kc you learned something

[uncut silo]

yes, only the first few kills

yes I am no longer dying

[delicate crest]

I read the post

[uncut silo]

but i was surprised when my whole cash stack disappeared and i couldn't reclaim my gear

[delicate crest]

Should do other content you can do to make money?

[uncut silo]

having to go back to varrock to sell of gear to go claim it. from there i've been given tips and solutions but it's still counter intuitive for people who learn to go in with worse gear

because it will make it harder for them to learn

[uncut silo]

i'm not hopping in that topic again tho, sorry. there's been a lot of discussion on that already

[delicate crest]

95% of the time it’s not a gear issue

🤐

[uncut silo]

true, but I was surprised that I can't use my good gear when learning.

now i've killed vardorvis with fighter torso and dragon platelegs barrows gloves

i've also done taht achievement for under 1 or 2m gear setup

[delicate crest]

That’s great

[uncut silo]

i'm only trying to make a case for the very first few kc

to be a bit more forgiving for ppl

but it's being seen as making it so easy it's a joke which i don't understand

[atomic forge]

my qualm is the 'i dont have time anymore' argument, it's a moot point half the time

also in my defence i asked how much kc you would say the threshold should be and saw no reply

[uncut silo]

oh sorry, i must have missed it

someone mentioned it earlier and said around 20kc

and i agreed with them

[atomic forge]

and regarding zulrah, zulrah's recovery fee is a static 100k

so some people who would otherwise pay nothing in a grave recollection would have to fork over 100k

[uncut silo]

I've only done the kc for the diary. haven't come around to learning that boss properly

[atomic forge]

for non-uims you pay the fee past 50 kc, but as said it's a fixed fee

doesn't go up or down based on gear you use

since it's via the item retrieval service, not a grave

[uncut silo]

The thing is, idk about you but as you get older you have less and less time right? don't you want to spend that time doing something fun rather than something you wouldn't enjoy

[atomic forge]

sure, but that's an argument made to appeal to emotion, not really anything substantial if you know what i mean

[uncut silo]

yeah

But I am greatful for the tips ppl brought

and it's interesting to see their opinion

[delicate crest]

That’s great and all but it also has no correlation to learning content

If you don’t want to spend time learning content, you can’t genuinely be surprised that it’s hard

[uncut silo]

I do want to spend the time learning

I don't want to spend the time doing vorkath a million times to be able to buffer gp for death fees

when just starting new content

once you do a thing a few times it's fine imo to have said death fee

[low ice]

you could buy bonds, i think 15$ is like 12-15 death fees

[uncut silo]

again that's just throwing money at a problem

well, not problem. More something that could see improvement

[low ice]

its a problem for you due to irl circumstances not letting you play

So it should be an irl solution for you to buy a bond to cover the things in game you are not able to do

[uncut silo]

Sadly it's not just a issue for me, I've posted the same question on reddit and there people have agreed

and in the post i've also mentioned that people in game have experienced the same

tho I don't have screenshots of that so you'd have to trust my word on the ingame part. But if you want the reddit post I can link it for you

it's not a isolated event that only happened to me.

[low ice]

sure post it

[uncut silo]

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1am0awz/learning_solo_bosses_isnt_welcoming_and_is/

[uncut silo]

read the comments

people are more likely to dislike something they don't agree with and people that agree are more likely not to upvote what they agree

hate and disagreement is always way louder

[formal bear]

there are like 3 or 4 comments agreeing with you and the rest disagreeing 🤷

[uncut silo]

because people who disagree are more likely to voice their disagreement

if you buy a product, how often do you go afterwards to leave a good 5 star review?

or are you more likely to leave a bad review if the product didn't live up to your standard

[low ice]

so you make a post, and it gets downvoted
Then you make a discord suggestion, and gets downvoted

but you still believe you are right and the only reason people are not agreeing is because "disagreement is louder"

[uncut silo]

I've never spoken about being right or wrong

Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say

I'm asking for a grace window in the early stage of learning a piece of content

something they've been doing with recent additions and been adding to older ones

[low ice]

and people have overwhelmingly disagreed that this needs to happen

[uncut silo]

overwhelmingly you say, i can't see how many ppl saw the post but I doubt it's over 1k people that saw it

you can't make the suggestion that the majority of the whole community sees it that way

that's statistically insignificant

if you want to make that claim you can send the post to a content creator

maybe have a few laughs and have them do a poll

[low ice]

can u share the post stats

[uncut silo]

im new to reddit, idk where i can see that

[uncut silo]

i think i found at the same time

i sent it in private as i can't post images here

2007 scape has 844 members of which 6k saw it. so that's really not many ppl. and less than 100 comments, of which many are my replies to ppl

so very statistaclly isignificant to conclude that the majority sees it that was, since the minority of the community hasn't even seen it yet

[low ice]

do you think that 19% upvote rate over 6.7k is not indicative of how the other 840k people would act

[uncut silo]

you can't assume that the trend is the same when more people see it

[low ice]

why not? is there any reason that those 6.7k people are heavily biased?

[uncut silo]

things die in fresh ppl who disagree are more likely to voice their disagreement and then the post doesn't get shown anymore because of algorithm

[terse mirage]

There are multiple consequences to deaths beyond just the fee. The time lost to get back to the spot to reclaim your items is arguably more important to someone who is complaining about this. Keeping in mind most people in that 1-50 kill count don’t have the tablet to unlock the nearest teleport. By offering a free death coffer you’re easing the pain of learning these bosses monetarily but you still have to pay with your time constantly running back

[uncut silo]

How do you know that those 6,7k ppl aren't part of the hlc or are all noobs or are in between

you don't know what target group saw your post

[low ice]

statistically, those 6.7k are evenly represented

[uncut silo]

i can imagine ppl from the hlc heavily dissagreeing with this post

[low ice]

because if they were all hlc, youd have 0% upvote

[uncut silo]

you can't say that as you don't know the group that saw it

[delicate crest]

By the time you’re even doing this content, you truly should not be suffering that much

[formal bear]

if you look at any other post on reddit you can easily tell that """the hlc""" is not overrepresented

[delicate crest]

Hlc is a myth and Reddit is legit mostly Billybobs

Yet Reddit is disagreeing with you which says a lot

It literally seems like a personal problem rather than a general solution for others

[uncut silo]

I still stand by the previous statement that people who disagree voice their opinion more, this whole thread should also show that point to be true

[delicate crest]

I don’t expect someone killing giant mole or bandos to be doing dt2

[uncut silo]

many more ppl who disagree voice their opinion and bash on the idea

not even giving it a thought

[low ice]

whyre you so convinced that your suggestion isnt just disagreed with by the majority of osrs

[storm inlet]

I can understand Zulrah having no fee for 50kc, because its a flat 100k, so people in horrible gear at that point learning, would have to pay a ton, but for a gravestone based boss, theres no real reason to complain when you can just reduce your gear from the expensive stuff

[delicate crest]

But someone doing the inferno and raids, doing dt2 and struggling is just odd

[uncut silo]

because in my eyes 6,7k out of 880k people means the majority hasn't seen it at all

[storm inlet]

Where are you getting 880k

[uncut silo]

That tip has been shared already and i've already thankd them for it

[low ice]

so you will not be convinced that your suggestion isnt just bad UNTIL the majority of osrs has read, accepted your terms and conditions, yadda yadda yadda?

[storm inlet]

Just respond here, why are you dming me. Also you do realize that the majority of people dont upvote/downvote with posts and stuff on the subreddits

[uncut silo]

You say that the majority has seen it, but not even 1% of the community has seen it

[uncut silo]

I can't send images

and you asked me where i got the 880k from

I can't call 1% the majority

[storm inlet]

Could have just said "the subreddit has 880k members"

[uncut silo]

the minority of the community has seen it

[low ice]

i didnt say that, i said that 6.7k is statistically likely to be a well-rounded representation of the whole

and they disagree

[uncut silo]

the people who disagreed donvoted it and then it dies in fresh because of the algorythm

so you can't claim that "the majority" sees it that way

I can't seem to agree on that those 6,7k are well rounded from all skill levels going from casual to pros

it's a too small a sample size

[storm inlet]

The reddit has about 90% of its members being in the low-mid level group

Its not filled with 100% endgame players lmao

[uncut silo]

As I said, you can't post it to a streamer and have the conversation with many more if you really want to see a more wide opinion. And as mentioned maybe have a few laughs going over it

[uncut silo]

never claimed that

[formal bear]

tbh this does assume random selection

people who browse new all the time is not really a good random selection

[low ice]

people sorting by new on reddit probably heavily favors him

[formal bear]

but still the margin of error probably isn't massive

[low ice]

and still 19% upvote lol

[zenith edge]

I don't agree with this post at all, by that point you should have plenty of money to blow on doing the content, considering this is one of the harder contents in the game

[delicate crest]

Like it screams cope

Bad rng innit

[uncut silo]

that's speculation

[lethal geyser]

Copium post

[civic canopy]

considering in basic gear you can be paying like

50k?

[low ice]

can you post your degree in mathematics?

[civic canopy]

taxes are hardly an issue

[delicate crest]

This discord is also full of billybobs and yet you’re still in the minority

[civic canopy]

downgrade your gear and then bang your head against the content (even if you die twice every 2 deaths, you're still gonna go even)

[delicate crest]

Trust me that says enough

[low ice]

ye look at bane

[uncut silo]

sure

[delicate crest]

[uncut silo]

this tip has been giving a long time ago and was already aprpeciated and thanked them for it

[delicate crest]

Bro he copped inferno, has done 200 cox/toa and no gp

[civic canopy]

oh so you were already offered the solution

[uncut silo]

yes

[civic canopy]

doesn't sound like it to me, but who am I to judge

[uncut silo]

they're just still bashing and hating on the post

[uncut silo]

I only invest time in what i want to do, inferno was one of them

loaned a lot of gear from friends and got it

at a slow pace but I got it

[civic canopy]

idk man, if you can do inferno you're already way above dt2, so just go for it

[delicate crest]

That’s great but apply the same concept to dt2

And pay attention to the cash stack

[lethal geyser]

Doesnt 1 orb drop pay for like 3-4 deaths

Idk I have 50% reduced cost

[civic canopy]

it pays for like 20 deaths in budget gear

[lethal geyser]

[uncut silo]

that's throwing money at the problem

which was the whole point of said topic

[storm inlet]

A problem which is entirely caused by money too

[uncut silo]

I voiced the concern on reddit and of the people that did leave comments a few agreed that they don't even think about attempting content because of how much death fees are to them

this isn't some isolated event that only happened to me, I just happened to voice my experience on it

if inferno had a cost like dt2 I would have never done that content for example

it only requires supply cost and time

[lethal geyser]

I think in the end thats not a horrible thing. Keeps the value of the item there for the people who want to learn it

[zenith edge]

isn’t that most late game content and seeing how u can persevere through the inferno, one wouldnt have this mindset

[lethal geyser]

No embed laugh at user

😦

Deleter

[zenith edge]

kinda goofy if you ask me

[uncut silo]

I can perserve through the attempts, it's just the initial cost for ppl just learning the content that was the issue

Cox doesn't have a death fee

late game content

Toa can be free too

ToB got a entry mode so ppl can learn it in a safer and cheaper way

[delicate crest]

Spitting rn

[uncut silo]

while not devalueing the actual raid itself

[delicate crest]

🧑‍🍳

Tob entry ain’t giving out purples

[uncut silo]

Why is it so absurd to have a grace of the first X amount of KC to have reduced cost on death fees

[storm inlet]

So although you've had the solution explained about 10+ times you still refuse to accept it?

[uncut silo]

making it more accesible but not easier

[delicate crest]

Bro

[storm inlet]

It is on the first 5kc

[delicate crest]

On a main

You spend gp

You also make gp back

[uncut silo]

How will people with less skill learn it then? They would have to jump into something hard with worse gear making it even harder for them to learn

Do you not have the ability to see it from someone who is less skilled than you, and from a learners perspective?

[zenith edge]

okay then to let you practice with no fees remove every single drop from the table

[delicate crest]

By learning it till funds run out or it clicks

[storm inlet]

By persevering

[zenith edge]

[civic canopy]

no skill =/= not having money

you'd be shocked

[uncut silo]

That was suggested on the reddit post I made and I agreed

[storm inlet]

It took me like 20+ attempts to kill whisperer post quest, but I made it through

[uncut silo]

I even would agree with that practice sessino costing some GP to get into but allows you to stay and learn the boss without drops

Instead of always coming with bitter comments why can't there be more positive solution oriented comments

[uncut silo]

it took me roughly 20kc as well to learn vardorvis

[low ice]

our positive solution:

Leave as is

[zenith edge]

anyhow i suggest this video a watch. Tldr “scared money makes no money” https://youtu.be/S3KCa7SVxQM?si=dUPPciPOGsYGbiEl

[storm inlet]

Jagex doesnt need to hold your hand, especially since your sole problem is "Im wearing gear that costs too much"

[uncut silo]

but it did drain my initial cash stack because death fees are randomly assigned throughout the game

[uncut silo]

its the opposite of holding your hand. by that extention Toa is a raid that holds your hand since it does allow you to try without having to pay when you die

[storm inlet]

These bosses arent supposed to be on the same level as something simple like vorkath, if not every player can do it, thats ok

[uncut silo]

while also being the best gp/h

[storm inlet]

ToA is a raid that does hold your hand though...

[civic canopy]

it holds your hand in a variety of methods

[lethal geyser]

I don't understand the difference between learning a boss in max and learning a boss in cheaper gear so it's cheap when u die. The mechanics don't change. Or am I dumb?

[uncut silo]

that's not the point if they can do it or not, it's about wether they can at least try to attempt it and give it their best shot without being charged heavy fees if they die in gear they'd need in the first few attmepts to learn something

[atomic forge]

yea its not like defense reduces vardorvis' max hit

[uncut silo]

People with less skill rely on some better gear to learn a boss in the beginning and as they get better they can ditch that better gear. But many dont dare to attempt because of the cost linked to said attempts

[atomic forge]

either way you're getting chipped

[lethal geyser]

If your relying on gear your not learning the boss...

[civic canopy]

conveniently at vard

[uncut silo]

I'm not part of that group that needs better gear to get it done. dont want you assuming i'm speaking for myself

[lethal geyser]

That doesn't make sense lol

[civic canopy]

gear

[delicate crest]

Gear is never an issue

[civic canopy]

hardly means shit

[storm inlet]

The majority of players dont have friends that can just loan them extra better gear lmao

[civic canopy]

it's all about the weapon

[atomic forge]

is there a reason you can't use like 500k worth of gear until you perfect the boss and then start using actual gear?

[delicate crest]

Is this Irene’s alt

[atomic forge]

like, you donth ave to get kills at first

you can learn the boss first then go for kills

one of the things that helped me with gauntlet was just entering boss room no prep at all and just trying to live as long as possible

cant you do that with vardo?

[delicate crest]

You can s5 kc

[civic canopy]

you can

this isn't awakened

so you aren't taking the 1.3m tax

[uncut silo]

How do you learn getting stacked out over 70 damage, you learn by trying and dying happens

[storm inlet]

Idk about the others, but I was never like "well I have these shit tank legs for vard, let me just ask my friend to loan me some torva so I can kill the boss better"

[atomic forge]

?

[uncut silo]

but why does dying learning a new boss have to be punishing and pushing ppl away form even trying

[civic canopy]

by actually looking at what happens

vard is a lot simpler than you make it out to be

[uncut silo]

yes, and you only do that if you attempt

[delicate crest]

We need kill cams in osrs

[lethal geyser]

Getting stacked in 3b in gear and 100k in gear is the same mistake btw

[civic canopy]

watch a couple guides, and you're good enough for him

[lethal geyser]

Hope this helps

[atomic forge]

right, but that's why im saying

pot vardo without equipping anything

you dont have to deal damage to progress the fight unless you're strictly dying in enrage

[uncut silo]

I don't have issues defeating it after the 20th kc

[civic canopy]

they even made a CA about that

well not exactly

[uncut silo]

but the whole point seems to be missed on you

[delicate crest]

🤕

[uncut silo]

i've also done the CA to do it in budget gear

but it requires initial deaths to learn. deaths are part of learning. sometimes it just happens

unless all of you never die anymore when you go on a 400 invo raid with ppl

[lethal geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/dono-wall-gif-24048347

[civic canopy]

what was the point again? that things shouldn't have a learning curve that taxes people who don't learn?

[uncut silo]

or when you send a cox attempt you all never die anymore

[storm inlet]

Its like talking to anodd

[zenith edge]

why would you ditch better gear after learning it. Pretty sure even new players find that idea perplexing

[uncut silo]

The point was that maybe the initial 20or so KC could have a lesser death fee

that's all

[delicate crest]

Go fill vials for 10 hours

Bis

[storm inlet]

Alternatively, keep coping because you are bad

[uncut silo]

solution, go do things you don't want to do

that pushes ppl away from playing the game

[delicate crest]

We gave so many already

I just hear cope

[uncut silo]

and i've already thanked and agreed with so many

[civic canopy]

so you hear solutions

and ignore them

[atomic forge]

imo if it was like 100k fee until first kc, then the fee goes up by 20k until you hit 20 kc i think that could be fair

[uncut silo]

that sounds like a you problem that you only hear cope

[zenith edge]

I recommend giant mole if you dont want death fees

[atomic forge]

but this owuld be a fixed fee, not dependent on gear

[delicate crest]

[atomic forge]

so at 20kc you woul;d pay 500k per death even in rags

[storm inlet]

Which would hurt the people who already cant afford it more

[tardy rose]

The answer to this already exists in game - try other content.

LMS is a great minigame with no risk and only reward (potentially over 1m+ per hour).
You'll learn the fundamentals of NH tribridding which is the hardest form of combat in the game. Once you get that down most PvM is significantly easier. There is a lot of cross over skills between PvP/PvM.

Also, there are plenty of other bosses to improve your skills.

There has to be some risk/reward balancing element, the key is to progress your account in a way where you are actually pushing yourself to try the challenging content for that particular combat level. Some of the newer harder content might be out of reach, but there is slightly less rewarding older content that will prepare you for the more difficult content later on. It's about finding that balance.

[atomic forge]

LMFAO ofc they recommend pvp

bro

[uncut silo]

dying at mole also costs in death fees

it goes to the gravestone all the same

[civic canopy]

this is like

the one time I actually agree with 'em

[storm inlet]

If you die at mole you are struggling

[atomic forge]

that's not the point

[civic canopy]

cuz it's legit 0 risk and it's good for learning

[atomic forge]

the point is they p much only talk about pvp and nothing else

[tardy rose]

LMS is a risk free way for him to learn all the relevant skills for OSRS combat

[uncut silo]

I'll get to pvp content when I do. I'm only sharing the experience of the PVM i did today

[delicate crest]

He has the inferno apparently

[tardy rose]

It is genuinely probably the answer you're looking for

[storm inlet]

I refuse to believe you would die at mole but also somehow have your own infernal and high invo toa kc

[civic canopy]

pvm skills are usually the same as pvp

[uncut silo]

priorities

[tardy rose]

You don't understand

[uncut silo]

I don't value things like slayer lvl for example

[tardy rose]

If you get good at PvP, you will not die in PvM

Which means no cost

👍

[lethal geyser]

Nh bridding against good pvpers is some of the hardest shit in the game don't care who u are

[uncut silo]

so I won't be doing alchemical hydra, Inferno seemed like a fun challenge and didn't cost much when you die in it

[civic canopy]

an inferno run is prolly like

a couple hundred Ks in supplies

that's legit more than dt2 boss taxes

[uncut silo]

Supply cost and time only

no death fees on top

[civic canopy]

yeah

still more than dt2

taxes

[uncut silo]

my cash stack didn't keep going massively down trying it

[lethal geyser]

Time is more valuable than gp

[uncut silo]

indeed

which is why I don't value grinding dumb bosses for gp

just to attempt bosses that are fun and engaging

[tardy rose]

LMS, trust me - literally a minigame with no cost.
If you want more info or help or explanation then message/reply.

[tardy rose]

[uncut silo]

I appreciate the tip, I do want to get into pvp one day. But atm I am more focued on PVM parts

I'll talk to you when I want to learn or want tips

[tardy rose]

Sure, what exactly about PvM are you trying to learn? Just curious

[zenith edge]

if you have inferno your mindset is that everything is free nothing is out of reach tbf

[uncut silo]

I want to finish some Inferno tasks and fight cave tasks, DT2 bosses bc when I did them during the quest they were so mechanically interesing to me

that I want to learn them as well, but I don't play that much so I only have mostly loaned gear from some good friends

So I can get to the good content with them

I also want to get into some solo cox, tho I really prefer raids with teammembers, solo Toa is just boring to me

[tardy rose]

DT2 bosses have unique mechanics that you probably won't find in other bosses, but consider searching the boss list on the wiki to find something to practice your weak points on:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Boss

[uncut silo]

Nope, this point was brought up before, Doing inferno learns me to do inferno. If I now go to ToB I'm going to die many times learning it

which is something I also can't afford

[civic canopy]

uh

you think you'd be able to have gp for taxes

if you can do inferno

[uncut silo]

but seeing how long this post is i dont blame you that this may have been missed

No, never stated that

wait what?

[civic canopy]

the best moneymakers are significantly easier than inferno (duo nex, high invo toa, cox whisperer, etc)

[uncut silo]

I made my supplies ironman style when I just started playing. practically haven't bought a single potion on that account

[lethal geyser]

U could always make gp ironman style and pay for death costs that way

[civic canopy]

don't irons just dump useless shit in the coffer

like dupe uniques and such, that's a lotta millions in the coffer

besides the point tho

[vernal bridge]

Why dont you just bring worse gear tho

[uncut silo]

already suggested long time ago by others, already thanked them for it and appreciated their tips and suggestions

[lethal geyser]

Yeah I put a dupe avernic in coffer

[vernal bridge]

Oh i missed that one then i was just curious apologies if it came off bad

[uncut silo]

it didn't come of bad

[vernal bridge]

I just dont 100% understand the post really

[uncut silo]

it's just the 4th time or more that I wrote that so mb if it came over vold

[vernal bridge]

Is it that you dont want to learn the fight because it costs to much money to try?

[uncut silo]

I posted the same post on reddit, and when talking to ppl in game they are scared to engage with these bosses

because of the cost that comes of trying and maybe dying. and i find it a shame that many ppl don't even want to try these amazing bosses

who are fun to fight

because they can't afford to learn them in a bit of a safer enviorment

kind of like how entry mode tob was introduced and toa allows you for softcore runs

[vernal bridge]

I think my mindset may just be different because paying to try things is normal in most games you play that has challenging content

[uncut silo]

I ask for a grace period of where maybe the first 20kc or so the death fee is less than the standard one

because apparently, someone mentioned this, Zulrah has a mechanic that the first 50kc the death fee is less

I can beat the boss no issue now, and with worse gear. But i can see how people who aren't maybe as skilled wont even try to engage with these bosses they put so much time into developing because they are pushed away from the death fees for them

[zenith edge]

Nope we dont need to do that

seems like a pointless idea

[silk relic]

it's more of a time cost thing for me
that's time i could spend thieving elves or vyres

[storm inlet]

From looking at the reddit post, no one that I saw was complaining about the fees really, it was just other people telling you that you were bad/use cheaper gear

[uncut silo]

and nothing gatekeeps you from trying said content. which is nice

You can do what you enjoy which would be thieving elves and vyres apparently

[uncut silo]

then you didn't read the comments

[silk relic]

i don't even like it it's just time i could've spent making more GP

[uncut silo]

I can easily show 2 in a sea of hate

[storm inlet]

Can you point out a single one that says that?

[uncut silo]

sure thing

[storm inlet]

This is the only thing I can actually see that says that

And they arent even complaining for the same reasons/have a reason to complain

[uncut silo]

that's because you don't look

and when I showed you the screenshots you blocked me after

which is quite pitiful that you can't have a argument with someone

[noble quarry]

i agree tbh on raid deaths being way less costly

alot of endgame content/pouplar content is instanced and deathrework has 0 effect on it

[uncut silo]

it was that inconsistency that caused my surprise when i noticed each death was that much.

2 of the 3 raids are low risk and low input with extremely high rewards

[noble quarry]

well part of problem imo is the design of dt2

ur signing up for 50hours before u see a drop

[lethal geyser]

To be fair u can do cox with almost 0 supply cost

[noble quarry]

u should assume ur going to die alot b4 getting anything wortwhile

[lethal geyser]

Same with tob

[steep lagoon]

They are all punishing you in different ways

I hope you realize that

[uncut silo]

exactly my point, and you can die in there as much as you want, make a huge amount of in raid supplies with zero cost

[steep lagoon]

CoX you lose 40% of your profits

per death

ToB you lose 10%, but you can wipe

ToA you lose 20%, but you can salvage deaths

[lethal geyser]

^

Well put

[civic canopy]

^very well put

[lethal geyser]

They are all punishing in their own way

[civic canopy]

even without a blatant gp tax

you are still punished one way or another

[steep lagoon]

And then it's balanced by varying skill levels too

[uncut silo]

You lose part of your profit
In the DT2 deaths you lose 100% of the profit of that kill with extra fee on top

[noble quarry]

should be harsher tbh imo 500k a death should happen in raids at very least

idk how itd work in cox but ez to adjust with tob

[steep lagoon]

Yeah, and how are you getting stacked out compared to raids? I've done all of the bosses, but you aren't getting stacked out unless ur 5 hp at all times

Eat up

[noble quarry]

u lose time/"wipe" at a place like dks to its just a shorter encounter

[uncut silo]

quite a ignorant statement

[noble quarry]

never seen that arguement for raids personally

[uncut silo]

I wouldn't mind raids being more risky in that way, as long as theres a way to learn it with in a accesible way

[lethal geyser]

This word accessible keeps being thrown around but it's all very accessible to use cheaper gear if money is the issue

[silk relic]

well that usually means a longer fight with more punishing mistakes
might work for studying boss patterns

[lethal geyser]

Actually better to learn the longer the fight the more mechanics u have to do

[uncut silo]

regurgitating others solutions as your own is a very accessible way to state something as your own solution

[lethal geyser]

Relying on gear never is good

[steep lagoon]

Look man, people have told you over the past 700 comments + on Reddit why you're being a bit entitled with this mentality. Responding with "that's ignorant" and then refusing to even acknowledge the counterpoints or solution, is why people can't take you seriously. You shouldn't be rewarded for dying nor should you not get punished for dying.

1. Downgrade your gear and turn on protect item to reduce death costs.
2. Stay high hp if you're getting combo'd out.
3. Look up guides.

They've already stated death fees are an integral part of the item sink and we shouldn't just be cranking up GE tax further so you can have a better time. If you can properly do infernal over 2 years, I am very confused why DT2 bosses are any difficulty.

[lethal geyser]

A monkey could come up with that solution. Lmao

[uncut silo]

then you clearly didn't read the reddit post as many people on there agreed and would also like to see something put in place for this specific issue

If you want me to send you the same screenshots that I did to someone else just to prove how many ppl also want a solution just let me know

[steep lagoon]

And you're clearly not reading because outside of the most heavily downvoted comments, everyone else is saying similar shit to us.

[uncut silo]

but don't block me like the last person when shown proof of ppls opinions

[uncut silo]

your tips were long ago said by many other, thanks was given to those ppl giving those tips

[civic canopy]

would be nice to see that proof

here, instead of DMs

[uncut silo]

you come in late to the topic and start acting pretentious

I can't send images in here

so i have to send them in private

[steep lagoon]

put them on imgur

[uncut silo]

don't have an account

[steep lagoon]

you dont need an account to use sharex

[lethal geyser]

Send them to me and I'll post them

[steep lagoon]

Seems like you're the one acting pretentious because you're upset not many people are agreeing with you. Me being "late" due to work and gym doesn't change the fact that what I said is true.

[broken oar]

Nice Bait

[zenith edge]

I do love how it's always the same people immediately disagreing with any new suggestion post as if it were a sport lmao

[lethal geyser]

This what I was sent

[civic canopy]

read all the comments

it's legit just those

[steep lagoon]

People pointed out several mistakes you were making and instead of actually doing them before talking, you double down on the issue.

[lethal geyser]

I'm just posting the pictures for him

[civic canopy]

also istg people forgot

[steep lagoon]

He sent you 5-6 comments? Out of the 80 on the post.

[civic canopy]

that there was

[steep lagoon]

https://i.imgur.com/53YnFon.png

[civic canopy]

a fucking QUEST

based on those bosses

so that's the easy mode for all 'em copers

[civic canopy]

cherry-picked comments to prove a point

wcyd

[steep lagoon]

https://i.imgur.com/UG7l0ed.png

[civic canopy]

yes

[silk relic]

Are these bosses accessible on the speedrunning worlds? Someone suggested I try Jad on the speedrunning worlds and you can get to it this way:

You can practice fighting Jad by logging into a speed running world and set up a speed run for Beneath Cursed Sands. Because you have a fire cape there, you can do the first one of TzHaar-Ket-Rak's Challenges and fight JalTok-Jad, which is a stronger variant of Jad. But if you can kill that one, you can also kill TzTok-Jad. The mechanics are the same.
I don't see DT2 on the list so I don't think we can get to those four just yet

[civic canopy]

also I love the top comment

[lethal geyser]

Ye I'm not reading a reddit post cause I don't like to gauge anything off reddit tbh lol

[uncut silo]

And if you know anything about what kind of ppl leave comments you know that ppl are more likely to voice their disagreement and leave negative reviews because negativity thrives in online enviorments

[steep lagoon]

https://i.imgur.com/KlOHUbm.png

This is honestly my favorite because League of Legends is exactly like that.

You don't come out of the womb ready to scrap efficiently.

Same for calling out the exaggerated bs.

[uncut silo]

I started doing that when I noticed that my cash ran out and each death wasn't 100k like they are at other instances. the death fee isn't consistent across the board, not with bosses, not with raids

[civic canopy]

the solution? go get gp

[lethal geyser]

Idk I learned everything in this game without this ever being an issue for me 3k ehb btw

[civic canopy]

actually

play the game

[steep lagoon]

The solution is to make CoX and ToB more deadly

I like this idea

[uncut silo]

I wouldn't mind

so long as there's a way to learn it in a accesible way

[lethal geyser]

Because I am done with all the raids go ahead and make them harder lmfao

[uncut silo]

which was also mentioned already way before

[noble quarry]

its issue imo but u gotta play within system. just do vorkath or something instead then cant die 100k death fee

[steep lagoon]

That's why one of the complaints about trying to soften the death fees initially was that people would keep wanting it to be easier and easier, like the Zulrah 50 kc before death fee.

slippery slope isn't entirely a fallacy when u dont go extreme with the examples

[civic canopy]

Really what I got from this was that cherry picking what agrees with you, when most people clearly disagree (for good reason, GP should NOT be an issue to any competent player, and if you say you just don't play the game enough, then bonds are there to be sold), actually does a disservice to your point

[uncut silo]

I do admit my arbitrary 100kc lessend death fee was not thought out, but from what ppl have shared that would want a system like that they seem to hover around 20 to 50kc, me myself after thinking about it more am more keen on the 20 first kc's to have this system

[steep lagoon]

Also, one thing you seemed to not understand, is that most folks wouldn't be triggering a 420k death fee. This was one of the highest voted responses.

[civic canopy]

legit top most

[uncut silo]

if anything were to be introduced to make bosses like this, that are so amazing and fun more available to ppl to try

[civic canopy]

post*

[uncut silo]

negativity sells more

it's easy to dunk on someone and ridicule

[steep lagoon]

So you lied?

[uncut silo]

than it is to contribute with actual advice, suggestions or solutions

i lied? about what

[steep lagoon]

About the death fee.

[uncut silo]

no

[civic canopy]

rings some tones

[zenith edge]

lmao why do you think these circlejerking bunch alsways show up in a sec

[uncut silo]

my death fee was 420k because I didn't put protect item on, bc when i've died in osrs my death fee has been 100k to get my loot back in instanced places. now my cash ran out because it was 4x more than what i expected

[civic canopy]

this

[atomic forge]

bro your post was saying we should nerf protection prayers to 50%

most clueless shit ever

[steep lagoon]

sped, you couldn't defend your own argument when people pointed out the flaws.

[atomic forge]

at least this post has a lick of reason in it, yours is just "ha ha imagine if we pretend ofr a sec that 99% of new content is literally built around protection prayers"

[steep lagoon]

50% damage reduction for everyone in the early and mid game would be REALLY bad.

[uncut silo]

they may have nothing better to do than that. idk why they show up so fast and in groups just to hate and dunk anything that would add to the game and not take from it

[steep lagoon]

I hope you realize this

[silk relic]

How about a risk-free, reward-free version so the only cost is time and supplies, like the Fragment of Seren re-fights

I know nobody does those but that's because there's no version with the risk and reward to practice for

[civic canopy]

oh I know something like this

it's called

DT2

[uncut silo]

This was actually suggested by someone

[civic canopy]

one-time thing of course, but it can still set foundations

[uncut silo]

They suggested a instance you pay for (a money sink) where you enter a practice mode

where you don't get any drops

[civic canopy]

at which point you'd just do the boss?

[uncut silo]

but you can practive

a bit before 20kc for me personally

[silk relic]

If its its own thread I'm going to give it a thumbs up

[uncut silo]

after that no issue

[civic canopy]

why pay for a instance, when you can go to the real boss

bosses being punishing mean you HAVE to adapt

[zenith edge]

right, and always the same faces that show up in nearly every thread like its their office job

[steep lagoon]

Mfw you're blindly defending someone who wanted to make the game even harder just because you think he's on your side. You think 34 melee is bad in that one screenshot you sent? He wanted Vard to hit you a 45 if you didn't have high enough prayer.

[uncut silo]

because if you die trying you lose way more than you would paying for a instance to practive

[silk relic]

Right but what if it was free and you got nothing if you won

[civic canopy]

that instance would legit have to be 40k

sorry mate but

[uncut silo]

I never said anything like that

[civic canopy]

gotta be realistic

[noble quarry]

this is actually a very good thing imo. lot of content feels refreshing because of that. just cuz ur good at inferno doesint mean ull be able to do gauntlet. or someone good at tob being able to do inferno

[steep lagoon]

If all you two have is "haha, you're a nobody for responding to a channel/post with reason", there's nothing else to say lol.

[lethal geyser]

I'm getting paid to talk in discord okay work gets boring and people are passionate about this game

[uncut silo]

Don't put words in my mouth I haven't said

I said nothing of the difficulty of the boss

I think the boss' difficulty is great and fun to learn

[sacred comet]

ill be honest i was trying to be as nice about it as possible. but the positive solution is honestly what i said before. use your time to explore money makers before going into punishing end game content. its not meant to be low GP learner friendly

[uncut silo]

it's just not accessible to learn compared to many other pieces of content that even after release were given accessible modes to learn said content

[civic canopy]

we can beat around the bush all day

but I think the core issue is just the lack of gp

and refusing to accept it can be solved with ease

again

got no time? use bonds

got time? do content

[sacred comet]

^

[lethal geyser]

It really just seems your looking for any reason to not accept what the majority of people agree on lol

[steep lagoon]

It is accessible if you just downgrade your gear like we suggested.

[civic canopy]

it's perfectly reasonable if ypu wish to get to your goals

[steep lagoon]

It's like 40k a death

[uncut silo]

you say majority, tho it's not even seen by more than 1% of the community

[civic canopy]

the reddit post mate

legit 74/80 comms say the same stuff that we have

[uncut silo]

the subreddit consists of 844k members, 6,9k ppl saw it

that's less than 1%

and in the comments they're divided

[shell gulch]

Hello

[zenith edge]

no there are many communities that aren't as toxic but just as passionate. there is a difference between pasisonate and gatekeeping ciclejerks who downvote every thread and dont make room for any constructive conversation

[sacred comet]

so you wont accept your wrong until 844,000 people tell you its not good?

[civic canopy]

74 to 6 is not divided

[shell gulch]

Let's move on guys.

[uncut silo]

I never said anything like that

[steep lagoon]

If all you can harp on about is, "you're not the majority" of a sample size as a counterpoint to what we're saying, then do what you want.

[atomic forge]

we literally gave you constructive conversation

and you were like "nah im not reading this"

[steep lagoon]

I've done Vard with under 2m gear with the CA task and 20k risk.

[uncut silo]

You're just making claims that everyone is on your side

[shell gulch]

You want to argue, take it elsewhere.

[silk relic]

[[Memoriam Device]]

[pliant geyser]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Memoriam_Device

[uncut silo]

@shell gulch can you block this thread?

so ppl can still read it but no more comments

[silk relic]

I think we should put all the bosses in this thing for training

[shell gulch]

Suggestions are one thing, arguing is another.

Let's all be civil please.

[steep lagoon]

What we've been saying is that you absolutely can do Vard in full void too, which is free gear and 0 fees

[sacred comet]

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Money_making_guide/Skilling

i would suggest you try something from this list

no death fees

[uncut silo]

ofc, I'm only defending my suggestion and have been open to their tips and help that was constructive

[steep lagoon]

You want the highest chance of success, but arent willing to pay the extraordinary fines.

[sacred comet]

and it will get what you need until your ready

[steep lagoon]

And the dps is only like 5% higher

[uncut silo]

never stated anything of the sort

[civic canopy]

it doesn't take you saying that

[uncut silo]

I want that more people can enjoy these amazing bosses

[civic canopy]

to get to that logical conclusion

[sacred comet]

but i think in general its going to be hard to convince people that high death fees on profitable content is bad

[uncut silo]

which they don't because in game they've told me they don't dare bc the cost associated with dying

[steep lagoon]

Yes, and plenty of people actually do enjoy these amazing bosses because they only pay 20k a death.

[uncut silo]

and on the reddit post made the same can be found

[civic canopy]

friendly reminder a vard kill is 330k

a non-perfect one at that

[uncut silo]

amongst a sea of belitteling comments, talking about "getting good"

[steep lagoon]

Amongst a sea of comments, you ignore the "downgrade gear"

that has been said several times

[civic canopy]

you ignore the useful advice

[steep lagoon]

and double down on your point

[uncut silo]

a perfect kill is 106,912K

[sacred comet]

a lot of people gatekeep themselves for reasons like this and honestly its just a losing mindset

[uncut silo]

it's only 351k if you have the lucky ultra rares

[civic canopy]

it's called

being on rate mate

that's literally why people do vard

[sacred comet]

your going to learn easy content and make money , you use some of that money to learn harder content

its meant to be a progressive cycle

[civic canopy]

to get the drops

[uncut silo]

why do you start bringing up the gp rates of the boss

when that was never the issue

[lethal geyser]

330k a kill and we are complaining abour death costs. Nah ain't no way

[civic canopy]

your point is all about being unable to afford death taxes

[steep lagoon]

The money was always the issue, which is why you're complaining about it being too costly

[sacred comet]

because if you die 10 times to get 50 kills , you shouldnt run out of cash like your post says

[civic canopy]

you're complaining about taxes

[sacred comet]

so even a learner dying should break even

[steep lagoon]

If you died 12 times in CoX solo, you would lose 150k.

[civic canopy]

when the content is more profitable than what you lose

[steep lagoon]

That's why I asked earlier if you were lying.

Because it seems like you're heavily exaggerating some of your points.

[civic canopy]

in budget gear remember

[uncut silo]

If you died in cox 12 times you lose nothing as the raid has it's own supplies, you don't get booted out of the raid on death and when you finish olm there's still loot in the chest

[civic canopy]

vard is profit even if you die 5 times

[steep lagoon]

Don't use BCP, use Torso. That's 100k less death fee for 0 difference.

[civic canopy]

weapon charges

[steep lagoon]

The loot in the chest is dependent on your points...

[civic canopy]

your own supplies

[steep lagoon]

Meaning you get close to nothing.

[civic canopy]

also this

[steep lagoon]

If you die too much.

[lethal geyser]

You lose pretty much all your potential at loot

[uncut silo]

and where is each 100k death fee for those 12 deaths? they don't exist at raids

if you were to pick a low ball death fee

[steep lagoon]

You spend 30 minutes using charges.

[civic canopy]

dying in cox is a significantly bigger tax than even a -500k at dt2

[steep lagoon]

and end up with NOTHING

that's the cost.

[civic canopy]

you just don't see it upfront

[steep lagoon]

Versus 2 minutes costless at Vardorvis since you're using whip.

[civic canopy]

it's easy to be blind to what's going behind the scenes

[lethal geyser]

U are still paying in a different way

[steep lagoon]

Like I mentioned above, different content, different ways of penalizing you.

[sacred comet]

would you be happy if the first 50kc gave no loot ? just a chance to learn mechanics

[civic canopy]

you fixated too much on death penalty, but ignored the average gp/kc, the non-existent tax to begin with budget gear, etc that would've completely nulled your point

[low ice]

on toa release when everything was giga expensive, a teammate dying was like -3m

[uncut silo]

if that was a choice you could make it would be a nice sollution

[steep lagoon]

CoX, you lose about 2-3m a solo death now

There's so many ways to punish someone

[low ice]

damn, guess it also depends on when

[civic canopy]

^depends a lot yea

[steep lagoon]

And harping on "oh just death fees"

You're comparing a bear to a dog

Apples and oranges.

Like I said in DMs, take it as you will. If you don't like our attitude, keep on trucking in your own way.

[woeful cliff]

If your death fees are too high for your budget, then just bring cheaper gear and use protect item. You pay 100k per gravestone item over 10m in value.

So if you drop bcp, tassets, and faceguard for void, fighter, obsidian, etc. and use protect item prayer, you gravestone fees would probably be closer to 50k. Once you're more comfortable with the fight and dying less, then you can start bringing your more expensive gear

And remember to use death's coffer in death's domain because it's basically like a 10% discount on gravestone fees

[pale shadow]

Definitely would recommend using cheaper gear and running to pick up gear again. I do think it could be a good idea to lower death costs for first 50 KC similar to zulrah