PvP Only Membership Tier

[shut arch]

It's no secret that PvP is massively underdeveloped in comparison to the rest of the game.
The argument is that most of the player base doesn't engage with PvP so less time should be spent on development. (Which is fair and justified).

I think the best solution is to offer a discounted membership tier that restricts characters to only engage in PvP.

So if PvP only gets 10% of time investment for development then there should be a 90% discount on membership.

This would be a fair and transparent acknowledgement of the commitment to PvP.

[marsh lynx]

No.

[random sandal]

should be the other way round, lemme pay money to opt out of pvp 🙂

[shut arch]

This would also be fair.
Give PvP more time and if others want more content they can make donations for extra content

[robust raft]

Anything related to pvp will always get downvoted if you consult the masses. Often the M is silent and unless an update Benefits their ironmen - point, click, grind, gain exp and pay for mems with credit card mentality, the wilderness is simply done.

[wispy rock]

I'm interested
Maybe a DMM-only bond

[robust raft]

I mean the first response to this post says it all. Say you're a redditor without saying you're a redditor. "No"

[wispy rock]

If it locked accounts to PvP worlds it might be a funny challenge on a budget but generally people are going to have to do a little PvM like raids or skilling to get decent gear for PvP unless they get lucky with a dragon dagger spec dump and that's just rude to the other PvPers

Wait no you need Lost City to wield that

Well it's certainly not a bond to get straight out of F2P with that's for sure

[still willow]

They should make it so if you have a certain amount of mage offense, in max gear for example your tb will never splash lol

[sudden pollen]

This leans heavily into the Wildy is dead issue. Back in the day, PvPing wasn't as optimised as it is now. We didn't know what PID was. We didn't know how to tribrid. That is why it was so popular back then, it was fun for casuals.

Now, it is a sweat-fest. I am not saying that in a harsh way, its just true. The learning curve to get into PvP is so high that a lot of people just look at it and go "nope". Heck, even just learning to escape is a learning curve that a lot of PvM players don't want to waste time on.

The main aim for Wildy is to create the predator vs prey scenario. Unfortunately, no matter how much time and investment Jagex will pour into this, it will never work. PvMers will just simply keep ignoring the Wildy unless its for Achievement Diaries or Clue Steps and Quests.

A PvMer can learn how to escape so they can do the wildy bosses and not lose stuff... or they can just take 3 items and never get skulled. Or they can spend the time learning ToA and get up to 300 invo and have a much better money making method. This gets rid of the predator vs prey scenario because the prey just doesn't care. They either risk 200k and go "I can make that back and more in 15 minutes of Zulrah" or just simply never enter the Wildy unless Questing/Clue Steps.

Jagex won't ever be able to create a scenario where a prey would willingly risk millions (unless said prey can afford to lose it).

[still willow]

I do think they should stream line the qol of life more for pvp to get new players more into it. In my view, learning to switch gear , prayer, spells specs etc should be smooth and easy to pick up. Then the real skill people can enjoy learning is when to eat, when to take risks, spec and so on.

Not sure how the best way to streamline it would be, maybe things like re sizing and moving icons around your client for faster clicks lol

[robust raft]

I don't know why the wilderness isn't the go to spot for Best money making in game.
The safe methods should cap out at like 2-5m/ hr (thinking raids, nightmare, nex, alch hydra) - so that the 'Best' place to go is the wild.
Making revs singles + only helped the Bots

This would kill a lot of content and make players uninterested in said content, But it's a 'gp creep' that should get addressed

They nerf and Buff weapons consistently. Just hotfix the gp/ ph

[strange heart]

high level pvpers make fuck loads more than high level pvmers

If you added a 20m/hr wilderness method for non pvpers to do, it would 100% become botted/boosted/exploited

[robust raft]

But you can at least die. And not just pay a fee/ pickup the stone

risk is the reward

[strange heart]

i pay like 500k a death in pvm, i forgot the actual cost since its meaningless

I would risk 500k in pvp, i dont see the difference here

[robust raft]

You're the exception in this case

80% of the game cries when they lose stuff to another player

[strange heart]

no, im asking the difference in your "risk vs reward" that warrants fuckloads of gp/hr

[robust raft]

multi revs was really the greatest example

anyone can go, risk as much or as little and make a profit

[shut arch]

This isn't true at all. The skill ceiling for getting into PvP really isn't that high. It's pretty much what you do at ToA, demonic gorillas, zulrah, etc. with slightly different mechanics

[strange heart]

and it turned into people paying 2 weeks protection to make ~4m/hr l.ong term no risk

[shut arch]

It's just fear, lack of effort, and genuine desire that holds people back

[strange heart]

Also, im i only participate in "high level" content, should I also get a discount since I dont do the "med level content" they are producing lately?

[robust raft]

But the situation now is.... "Better"?

[shut arch]

This isn't the point, just count the PvP updates in compirson to PvM.

[strange heart]

its better in some, worse than some. overall its bad, hence why im not a fan of pvp situations where pvp is not the focus of the content

[shut arch]

Also, the quality of PvM updates far exceeds that of PvP

[strange heart]

what about the count of high level pvm vs med level pvm? its around the same as pvp vs pvm

[shut arch]

The update they announced literally seems like a 5 minute brainstorm during tea break

[shut arch]

What's med level to you? Because there is a good amount of med PvM IMO

[strange heart]

high level:
tob, hmt, cm, inferno

med level or below:
everything else

should I get a 90% discount?

i dont actually believe this, just showing the sillieness in the suggestion

[robust raft]

I was never commenting for discounting mems. All i was chiming in was pvp updates need to just drop without consulting the osrs community, anymore.
19.2% voted no to sailing. For me, this represents the old, OLD school players that want the game to stay a lot of what it used to represent.
If over 80% are looking to add a new skill (yes i know diff conversation) it shows these players have 0 interest in the wild.

[shut arch]

Count all the updates in the past year that apply to you: DT2, TOA, Varlomore,

[robust raft]

Let them do other, Boring stuff

[shut arch]

A lot of truth here, the bias towards PvP is so off-putting.
I only play for PvP, if it's not even going to be taken seriously then they should advertise that on their home page

[robust raft]

I was watching the twitch stream on a osrs youtuvers stream, for the 2x speed (cant watch live) and i skippe through the whole stream to get to pvp.
What did the guy streaming do? muted the stream and played osrs as to not hear ANYTHING pvp related

[strange heart]

lmao i did the same thing

[robust raft]

There is a legit malice to anything pvp related

[robust raft]

my point.

[shut arch]

I have met far more toxic PvMers in game than PvPers.
I've had PvPers give me back my +1 when I first started Wilderness activity

[strange heart]

confirmation bias, though

[shut arch]

Multiple time

I played ToA on release day as a pure and so much hate from PvMers

Never experienced anything like that with PvP

[strange heart]

yeah because youre basically sabotaging them

[robust raft]

Lol... okay now this is just nit picking situations

[shut arch]

Objectively, my experience has been that PvM is more toxic than PvP

[strange heart]

if youre trying to pvm as a pure, youre purposely sabotaging youre team. Of course people are going to be more toxic than in pvp when youre on essentially equal grounds

[shut arch]

When was the last time you played a raid and someone gave you 13M back at the end because they out performed you in the raid and got better loot?

[robust raft]

The only solution i see is to win the lotto, Buy jagex and just do whatever i want in the wild

[strange heart]

ive had multiple people decline split because they played dogshit

myself included

[shut arch]

I had better gear, better stats, and more skill

[strange heart]

not as a pure, you didnt no

[shut arch]

Proved them wrong by the end

[strange heart]

1 def pure?

[shut arch]

Weapons, stats, but that's not the point here

[robust raft]

why u assumin he's a pure? lmao

we have mains, meds, zerks

[shut arch]

This is the point

[robust raft]

i c

[shut arch]

PvP community is not toxic, it's playful trash talk.
Where as PvM community is genuinely toxic - polling, content, community, intolerance

[strange heart]

again, confirmation bias

[shut arch]

There are so many objective examples online, it's not confirmation bias - it's the reality

The examples have nothing to do with me - just read through Reddit

[robust raft]

I'm genuinely curious why @strange heart feels the way they do avout pvp if they can have their needs met outside wild

then all pvp always should get voted yes?

[still willow]

If you want to hear toxicity, turn on your private chat after killing a hc iron or ultimate iron

[strange heart]

one big reason is im forced into the wilderness or pvp to do what I enjoy

[robust raft]

like?

coll log? Black chins?

[strange heart]

clog, chins, clues

bis

like vw or ww

[shut arch]

Confirmation bias there

[robust raft]

Cant i say the same that im forced to get 95 slayer for alch hydra slay helm recolor, then?

wahh lower reqs?

[strange heart]

ive made no claims, just arguing the bad aspects of this post

[wispy rock]

occasionally I'll just go into the wilderness and fool around in a 3 item setup casting support spells from the lunar spellbook

I'd love to do that for less than the full membership

[shut arch]

You presented examples specific to you that confirmed your bias (exactly what I did)

[strange heart]

I didnt make a blanket statement like "pvmers are more toxic"

I made examples specific to myself, but what would have been the problem is if I made the claim

"everyone hates going into the wilderness for doing these things"

because i dont have the data to confirm that "everyone" does -- so i only referenced myself

[wispy rock]

So what was your idea for this part:

restricts characters to only engage in PvP

Do you mean like LMS, Deadman Mode, maybe restricted to PvP worlds?

[shut arch]

I mean that if PvP is not going to be developed with the same degree of quality and attention as the rest of the game then they should stop raising hopes with false promises, stop dangling the idea that PvP is taken seriously, and just clearly advertise on their homepage that PvP is not a concern.

This way everyone that plays specifically for PvP won't waste their time and money here and can move on to an alternative.

In my objective experience, PvP ideas either die to the polls or come extremely slowly. There's a lot of hate online for everything PvP related, but the opposite isn't the case. The intolerance and toxicity (that I've experienced) is from the other side of the community.

1 good well thought out PvP update a year isn't too much to ask - we're not asking for an entire raid, skill, quest line, or continent...

[wispy rock]

What would be available in the discounted membership I mean

I think it's a neat idea that would bring players into PvP spaces which would naturally bulk up the percentage of the playerbase that engages with PvP to some degree, so that we can get more viewpoints and opinions, and more importantly voters in polls

[robust raft]

and for the record that ""1 good well thought out PvP update a year"", which was wbr, is heavily botted and safespottable

Not seen any hotfixes or intent on changing it

They toss us some pittance and update it yearly

That had a lot of potential but they don't even follow up on what they give us. Look at PVPA

Genuinely, if the end result is to have players leave voluntarily, they're really doing a great job

[shut arch]

[sudden pollen]

This still wouldn't make the Wildy great again sadly.

What you have to remember is the PvM community probably make up ~95% of the game, whereas the PvP community probably make up 5%. If you start forcing PvM into PvP you'll get a lot of backlash. Its sad, but true.

I don't PvP, I am shit at it - but I certainly watch people PvP. I don't mind having to go into Wildy and risking stuff, its part of the iconic charm. But, you see it with a lot of other MMOs that PvP is just unsuccessful unless you completely separate it or make it completely optional. Having areas like the Wildy (predator vs prey) will just be dead. Preys don't like the predator vs prey aspect of it, so they will just chose to ignore it. As much as I want to see Wildy become a hub again, the time and effort is better spent in other aspects of PvP.

[tropic fox]

unbelievably based

[shut arch]

Some more confirmation bias from the weekend @strange heart
#1196501110249246741 message

[strange heart]

what would have been confirmation bias if i said "Ive seen countless people wanting to remove pvp, has to be 90% of the community"

but what I said was called a joke or personal opinion, lol

[shut arch]

Great, so no one has a confirmation bias in this chat then

[shut arch]

personal opinion

lol

[strange heart]

you made a generalized blanket statement based on personal experiences and no actual data

[shut arch]

Just cut the innocent angel stuff, face it - you're toxic

[strange heart]

that is an opinion, yes

[shut arch]

You literally contradicting yourself

[strange heart]

but then to use this experience to justify "all pvmers are toxic"

[shut arch]

Your own definitions of the terms you use describe your behaviour

[strange heart]

would be confirmation bias

youre just misusing the word its not big deal lol

[shut arch]

(I'm going to follow your method of deflection here)

I didn't say all, just PvM community

[fluid apex]

It's no secret that Pest Control is massively underdeveloped in comparison to the rest of the game.
The argument is that most of the player base doesn't engage with Pest Control so less time should be spent on development. (Which is fair and justified).

I think the best solution is to offer a discounted membership tier that restricts characters to only engage in Pest Control.

So if Pest Control only gets 10% of time investment for development then there should be a 90% discount on membership.

This would be a fair and transparent acknowledgement of the commitment to Pest Control.

[wispy rock]

I actually kinda like pest control, I'd be up for that too

[broken crane]

So if PvP only gets 10% of time investment for development then there should be a 90% discount on membership.
no

even in an irl situation, this isn't really true

in a lot of cases it comes with diminishing returns

and even then this is a stupid idea lol

[analog jackal]

runescape is already cheap compared to other MMOs

and to be blunt, the pvp community votes No to any QOL change for pvp, because clicking on tiny barrage icons to avoid auto cast delays is real skill expressive

pvp and pvp communities are constantly at odds with one another despite pvping being incredibly fun when its not predator vs prey. The wildy has confusing mechanics in terms of what gear you drop vs not, multi vs non multi areas, getting smited by ancient mace clans on top of many other things that make it difficult for new players

the wildy has TONS of other problems, and a reduction on a 10-15 dollar membership aint it

[shut arch]

Most of the time it's PvPers looking for PvPers, prey with barely 500K loot or skill isn't that exciting.

[shut arch]

It's really not the same thing, I think you understand the point of my message.
To promise a commitment to PvP and then to not deliver is not honest at all.

[broken crane]

where did they promise a commitment to pvp

[shut arch]

They've actually made these claims a few times recently and acknowledged it needs work.
They've thrown ideas, but nothing comes of it

They should be clear: yes or no - is PvP going to be a valued aspect of this game or not?

[analog jackal]

Really? then why are the pvp hotspots still the wildy bosses + rev caves?

[analog jackal]

pvp is clearly still valued since they are releasing another DMM, albeit less than pvm

[shut arch]

DMM is a re-run of a temp game mode, it's not a permanent, well-thought out update

[analog jackal]

wildy bosses, adding low level pvp hot spots

BH

[shut arch]

Look at the past updates in the 2 years and compare the quality of content for everything in comparison to PvP

[shut arch]

The low level hot spot seems like a 5 minute cook-up whilst getting a coffee

[analog jackal]

what do you want? pvp raids?

[shut arch]

Compare that to all the other announcements

[analog jackal]

because bringing players into pvp is shut down constantly

[shut arch]

1 good, well-thought out PvP focused update a year isn't too much to ask

[analog jackal]

wildy bosses and BH were not pvp focused?

[shut arch]

Or atleast for every 10 updates for other content

[analog jackal]

what about locking 1 tick teleporting behind hard diaries so you can more easily kill other players that are unprepared

what kind of content do YOU consider to be "well thought out"

[shut arch]

Varlomore, ToA, ToB, CoX, Hunter Guild, Sailing, Forestry, Guardians of the Rift, Kourend & Kebos, Quest Speedrunning, Nex, DT2, and etc...

[analog jackal]

what do you consider to be a well thought out PVP update

[shut arch]

Look at PvP Arena

[analog jackal]

RWT gambling simulator?

[shut arch]

What happened to the talk about Wilderness Expansion?

[shut arch]

No, there's no rewards for it

[analog jackal]

you mean a system that got so bad

that jagex HAD to act

or they were gonna get into trouble legally?

also, they are reworking many parts of the wildy

the high alch area, the resource arena

wildy bosses got revamped and brought lots of people in

[shut arch]

We heard the same thing during the last roadmap reveal

[analog jackal]

what are you talking about

[shut arch]

My point stands, a lot of objective evidence. If you disagree then fine

[broken crane]

ok but where is the promised commitment

[shut arch]

Just expressing my concerns

[analog jackal]

^ you mean the wildy bosses

that did get added

the deadman that DID get added

what promise to create a wildy expansion similar to valmore occured

[strange heart]

poll 80

[shut arch]

Wildy bosses are such a minor rework in comparison to everything alse being added to the game

Think about the scope of Kourend & Kebos, the raids, Varlomore, sailing,

DMM and Leagues are equivalent so ignore those

[strange heart]

they didnt promise it to be that big

just buff deep wild shit

[broken crane]

putting an update idea in the same pool as other update ideas doesn';t mean they'll be the same magnitude or depth lol

[analog jackal]

they legit said rebalance rogues chest and change the lava dragons?

[strange heart]

and scorpia

[analog jackal]

yeahhhhh

thats not exactly a wildy expansion

so not sure where you got that idea from

[strange heart]

it wasnt an area expansion, but a decent number of changes

[shut arch]

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/yjovl1/wilderness_expansion_project_by_mod_soffan/

This would have been a high quality update

I've made my point, there's no point in us continuing to argue because we fundamentally disagree and some people have inherent hatred towards anything PvP related

[analog jackal]

I just think this would be dead content or need to be braindead easy

because how can you have complex mechanics at a boss when someone can come in randomly and freeze you

[shut arch]

Why would it need to be braindead easy?

[analog jackal]

you fundamentally cant have anything like COX or TOB when someon can grief you

also, then you have predator vs prey mechanics

[shut arch]

Because it's not always about farming bosses, sometimes the experience of the activity in itself is fun enough - there doesn't have to be some GP p/h attached or BIS

[analog jackal]

where people would not want to risk high loot,

just to be clan man moded and lose 600m

[analog jackal]

Fully agree back in 2007, but player atitudes have shifted and most content with 0 or limited rewards is dead

like the wildy world boss

[shut arch]

Ok, then make the best money maker in the game in Wilderness, but make it difficult too so even though theoretically it is the best, realistically it can't be sustained for a long period of time. Makes sense as it's a risky place to be

My point was that it's combat mechanics, spells, weapons, prayers, add in some PvE too that all makes PvP exciting

That could be expanded significantly

PvP is about skill, most PvPers aren't hunting prey for loot, some just love the challenge of a good NH fight - there is no PvM equivalent because PvM is all predictable

[marsh lynx]

playful trash talk yet pvpers still land perm mutes all the time for them to whine about

[bleak latch]

interesting idea for limited events like leagues and deadman mode, they could sell a membership that lasts the entire length of the event for cheaper but you can only play the limited event on that membership plan

[bleak latch]

at the moment, the Wilderness has numerous very good moneymakers that are also pretty simple and "easy". Revenants are easy, all the wildy bosses are easy, etc, and all the risk is from someone attempting to PK you. Nothing in the wilderness can or should be ever a greater money maker than raids, because it's either gonna be overpowered and print too much money for the effort required, or it's gonna be difficult and/or longer content that will feel awful to get interrupted by a PKer every 2 minutes because you need to bring better gear for the content and PKers will be constantly there looking for kills because the content is such a good moneymaker

[bleak latch]

the majority doesn't PvP though, they PK, because those are different things. PvPers are looking for actual fights and they're hanging out fighting each other on PvP worlds, while PKers are hunting people who are generally undergeared for PVP to try and kill them and get their loot. There's definitely many more PKers than PvPers

[fluid apex]

You are intentionally missing the point of my retort, and I think you know this. There are a huge number of people that log into this game to do one or few things that they like, and hardly ever touch the rest. This doesn't entitle any category of player to discounted membership fees, irrespective of their numbers or passion for the specific content they're here for. I think if your priority is PvP, and you as a consumer aren't feeling that your choice to pay and play is being respected, you only have a few options; request meaningful change and be willing to wait for it an indefinite amount of time patiently, or stop paying to play a game that no longer prioritizes your concerns. I don't think that their attempts at placating the PvP community are so infrequent or so poor that reacting that way is necessary, but that's subjective and it's up to you to decide where you draw the line.

It's not, however, okay to request that you should have a specialized pass to play this game monetarily cheaper than anyone else because of the slight, imagined or not.

[shut arch]

Agreed, wait or leave.

[shut arch]

It is completely acceptable to request a membership that only permits PvP. It's a completely valid suggestion, regardless of how you feel about it

[marsh lynx]

still only think it would be abused by RWTers and DMers

[random sandal]

im confused about how this would be implemented, is if going to be a separate server where its only pvp like DMM (where u can still PvM), or is it simply gonna be like how f2p is rn where if u attempt to interact with PvM content it just tells u no? what if that PvM content is in the wildy and u cant get items (Mage Arena 2 cape) because it isnt locked behind PvP.

[wispy rock]

A DMM-only membership would be neat but -90% is incredibly low
I'd go -40~60%

[sudden pollen]

After giving it some more thought, this gets my full support if its separate PvP-only servers (no PvM) and they remove PvP from the wildy on all the other servers.

[broken crane]

i would only support removing pvp from the wildy

if they also remove the chaos altar, all wildy bosses

resource area

basically wildy should be completely barren and empty with nothing to do in it

[wispy rock]

They could replace it with a humongous (and very dangerous) multi-skill with a focus on Construction minigame where everyone on the server attempts to reconstruct Forinthry while the bandits and bosses fight back to keep it lawless

Like Tai Bwo Wannai Cleanup

Might make this its own suggestion

[sudden pollen]

ehhh - yes and no - you can still have that stuff in wildy... you just change the focus from PvP/PKing to PvM, so just make all the xp rates in-line with everything else

[broken crane]

no

the sole reason chaos altar is even remotely balanced is bc of pking

if pvp is removed, remove the chaos altar entirely

[sudden pollen]

I think you're missing what I am saying. Keeping Chaos Alter is fine. However, put the xp back in line with offering bones to any other alter.

ah, just checked and you can't use bones on any non-poh alter... which means it just sits there as the chaos temple since for it to be in-line with other xp rates, means it must get 0 xp

[wispy rock]

well my house has a gilded altar in it and it'd beg to differ if it had sentience

[sudden pollen]

edited

[iron tartan]

To be honest, I wouldn't mind if you could offer bones at non-POH altars for Prayer exp, with a slight boost for doing so.

But I think that's deviating from the original topic.

[spice geode]

You want a discount because you pay for a game and choose to ignore everything but pvp?

That's like late game pvmers asking for a 90% discount since a majority of the updates aren't for us.

[shut arch]

No that's not why I suggested a discounted rate, I explained my thinking above

It's not the same at all

[spice geode]

i would simply encourage you to keep track of the pvp discord

[shut arch]

Cool, will do

Lets leave this thread here, it's not worth arguing this into eternity - nothing constructive is going to come from this anymore

[spice geode]

i cba to read everything thats been said in here , but the pvp team have been making positive changes

the poll 80 delay for wilderness things are BS

but the pvp discord kind of sheds light on there focus for 2024

and we kind of saw SOME of that in 2023 with WBR , voidwaker , bounty hunter , new take on DMM , poll 80 unpolled changes to improve things, manked being hired to take lead on pvp....etc

so i fully get where your coming from , i just responded to the bait title

[shut arch]

[spice geode]

an example of what im talking about. Goblin and especially manked are super active with the people in there now in terms of potential upcoming things

so give it a bit of time i guess

they made a focus shift to make the wilderness for people who want to be there , and its been all positive so far. hopefully this year keeps it going

[shut arch]

Hopefully 👍

[still willow]

i wouldnt want this tbh, if it combines range and super combat, it just means people bring 1 more brew with them to outlast fights, which will make it more annoying to secure kills

the rev farmers will prob have an extra brew with them too

unless it was just an overload for either range, mage or melee, then that sounds better

[tropic fox]

thats pretty insane

itd totally suck if the potion was like 500k each tho..

[spice geode]

if its a unique from scorpia and not common then it probably would be