Project Rebalance | NO ELEMENTAL WEAKNESSES

[quick flax]

No Elemental Weaknessess
Instead a new spellbook should be added that allows the bonuses from Hamonised Nightmare Staff. Features of this spellbook could include; burning, waterlogging (slowing enemy attacks), crushing blows (introducing a crit roll from an earth spell [hit over max hit]), and swift strikes (air spells that have a chance to attack 1 tick faster). Elemental Weaknesses aren't the answer, and revamping the true Old School systems isn't the answer in my opinion.

When it comes down to Range and Melee; as an example I think the option to use a Heavy Ballista at Gargoyles is still a good alternative. Yet, it is niche. Heavier, slower weapons are rarely used because of the chance to hit a 0 often, which was also discussed in the blog. Simply reducing the crush strength of Gargoyles as an example would be a small buff with the added change of 1-through-Max hits. While I really enjoy the theme of the idea, I don't think it'll fit quite like it's imagined. It's better to rework the Heavy Ballista's (as an example) special attack to include an additional feature and/or reduce special attack cost than to rework the combat system as a whole.

It is my belief that new weapons introduced in OSRS allow more freedom of change; but when the question starts to come in mind of changing true Old School systems, opt out.

Don't fix what ain't broken

[atomic saddle]

Why another spell book though

Just give those effects to their respective elemental spells at this point

[quick flax]

The Normal Spellbook shouldn't be touched imo

[atomic saddle]

😬

I see

[quick flax]

It's slow and clunky and stupid, but it has character. It works so well already with Mystic Smoke Staves, Tome of Fire, etc.

It's like apple pie before you put a slice of american cheese on it

[atomic saddle]

That feels more like a syndrome of powered staves not working in pvp than them actually working well

Like outside of ice demon hahahah

[quick flax]

I used to use it A LOT with Chaos Gloves, Mystic Smoke Staff, Tome of Fire when I was a broke noob

Occult Necklace being so cheap made me FEEL strong when I was using Fire Bolt

And a Brimstone Ring with the additional accuracy roll as a budget alternative ring

OSRS is a "choose how you want to play" style MMORPG. It's a single player MMORPG and not everyone does raids. Balancing around the top tier players is a mistake.

By all means, give the 0.1% more raids and content. Just don't ruin the casual experience.

Raiders are the vocal minority

If you "like balancing OSRS" just apply to work at Jagex

[quick flax]

toa and cox are raids for the masses

what are you talking about lol

[floral sentinel]

this is more power creep than the current state of the tombs

also i think theres like 3 enemies in the game that have elemental weaknesses

and 2 of them are ice demon

oh nvm theyre looking into it

[floral sentinel]

this argument can be made with your solution

[atomic saddle]

What kind of non-argument is this

The jmods in the first place instigated this rebalance project

[floral sentinel]

i fucking hate this point

cuz it aint even true

the "0.1% vocal minority" is like obliv mfs

but there are so many people who do raids

[ionic crag]

elemental damage will not be for the masses either because it will be balanced to harmo staff.

[merry needle]

Just leave the game alone

[ionic crag]

Just to beat a dead horse for fun, remember the "Upgraded" ancient sceptres?
Yeah... Jagex was given full reign to improve ancient spell effects and all Jagex could come up with was with 2 fully dead content sceptres and 2 almost dead content sceptres.

Makes me believe that Jagex can only use damage as a metric, which alligns with the idea of converting Ranged and Magic into melee, to debuff damage of certain items whenever Jagex feels like it.

Best part imo is calling it not EoC when the second thing EoC did after the ablity bars is adding elemental weaknesses AND ranged types to combat, even better is knowing that the style weaknesses don't even matter in rs3 anymore.

I'm down for talking about tomes normalizing standard spell damage (eg. wind surge dealing 24 base damage) + getting a secondary effect like Ancient spells

But then we remember 2 types of ancient spells are dead content and damage isn't normalized there either

[fresh ridge]

I don't see anything wrong with this, given how this system (Weak to a specific kind of damage) already exists in the game. Albeit probably in a slightly different manner than what Jagex is thinking, but it's there.

[desert sail]

yeah i feel like breaking down weaknesses to new categories is already in line with how we play.
it just means people are gonna have to get used to using different weapons in more places

[fresh ridge]

Literally adding "This monster is weak to Earth spells" isn't breaking or that much of a change to the Old School system

[desert sail]

kind of how you bring a ZCB to nex > tbow

[desert sail]

yhup , 100% agree.

[fresh ridge]

I remember for years, people believed Damis from DT1 was weaker to Earth spells but that has since been debunked

So it's not like this concept hasn't been in your mind of players

[desert sail]

arclight on demons , dragon hunter on vorkath/hydra/olm , fire surge on ice demon in cox , to some extent saphire bolts for muspah shield phase

people already accept the idea of certain monsters/phases having a specific weakness

[shrewd token]

and some expect water spells to be more damage on fire monsters. opal bolt e buff time?

[fresh ridge]

Oh yeah. Forgot about bolts

Pearl bolts deal increased damage and is stronger against anything designated as "fiery"

[edgy vector]

Yeah but this is DIFFERENT and NEW and that means some certain people hate it and it means the end of the game because they can't comprehend the similarities with things that already exist

[ionic crag]

It doesn't add without taking something.
To make water surge work somewhere, it will take away the ability to use trident/sang/shadow there.

If it existed when OSRS was created, no issues.
But it didn't so to create it is to destroy one of the core of OSRS combat.

Reiterating that those will all be balanced to harmo staff + tomes, meaning that anyone not fully decked will get little benefit out of the system.

[novel hornet]

so you want osrs to be in maintenance mode? with no changes ever? im sure there are rsps like that if thats what youre after

[ionic crag]

nice strawman, mate

My point and your sentence are completely unrelated

[novel hornet]

your reasoning is exactly that though, adding things means destroying osrs as it existed in 07 and we should never destroy osrs as it existed in 07. thats exactly your point and implication here #1182825678324895814 message

[ionic crag]

Correct and to affirm that it means I want no changes ever doesn't even qualify as a leap in logic, more like a base jump in logic

Hell, probably I'm the one with the most threads started in this channel including a fully fledged out raid

[edgy vector]

You can make certain spells stronger against new enemies without making old things weaker

You can also create new entire encounters with new weaknesses so the endgame of pvm isn't the same 3 tired items everywhere

And so ice demon isn't some weird standalone "it works this way but nothing else in game does" boss where there's 0 info about it unless you wiki it

That'd be fine too, provided there's other monsters that are also like that. Which is why I think elemental weaknesses are cool, there could be more of these find it yourself style weaknesses based on scenery and monster details

Guy made of magma? Probably weak to water
Big dust bunny? Probably weak to air
Stuff like that could breathe some new life in the design of future NPCs

[shrewd token]

I like elemental weaknesses not only for those points but it also introduces more ways to balance future npcs and gear. X gear gives extra accuracy in X style without having to worry about certain weapons taking extra advantage of it (blowpipe w/ ranged str, shadow w/ mage str etc.)

[edgy vector]

Also means you could create a boss that is both weak to mage, but not weak to all mage, so it doesn't feel so samey shadowing every single boss

Shadow could remain the jack of all trades mage weapon, where it's decent pretty much everywhere, bis at some, etc.
Without entirely murdering the sang/trident/harm

[desert sail]

Elemental damage being a thing also helps them with design space for magic.

You can now make a bunch if items and equipment with elemental specific buffs

I like the thought of that a lot, could essentially split bonuses into ancients , elemental and raw % which impacts powered staffs

[copper swan]

Yeah I 100% agree that elemental weaknesses would be really cool as a way to add more varied uses for spells, rather than just "bring the highest dps you can output"

It does feel boring just casting the highest-level spells you can on whatever, and elemental weaknesses would be really handy breaking that up

Especially for slayer tasks, where the whole idea is "prepare in advance"

[chrome lava]

if it works so well with those items

why is it only used in 2 places for actual damage?

[quick flax]

I used it everywhere when I was new

My gameplay isnt about min-maxing. If I enjoy doing something then I'll do it. Chaos Bolt was strong, easily available through quests, and cheap. High level high skill raiders only play the meta because they're doing the highest level content in the game, but the game shouldn't be designed around them. They need more content, but I don't need more of their content.

And to be clear, when I say "new" I mean on my 2nd-3rd account as a fresh playthrough.

I don't want to raid yet because I don't like their community. So please keep your/their communities to themselves.

[chrome lava]

conveniently

2/3 raids can be solo'd

[chrome lava]

that's...odd, but ok, to each their own even if there are objectively better options

[quick flax]

I didn't use it because it was the best. I used it because it fit multiple catagories on my specific needs and circumstance.

[chrome lava]

High level high skill raiders only play the meta because they're doing the highest level content in the game
It doesn't take skill or raiding to be efficient/smart about gear, generally speaking. Indeed, you may not need their content, but content can satisfy both high end players and low end ones (insert tob and cox)

[quick flax]

Ok then why make every attackable NPC in the game weak instead of just raid bosses like you high end players want

They're designing a system where you won't hit 0's anymore.

[chrome lava]

what is your point here?

that's exactly something that makes everyone happy

[quick flax]

My point is that this balance "discussion" never ends. You all just get to talk numbers for the rest of your time playing. "This monster is too strong," or "this one is too weak," why not leave the game as it is, and enjoy it. What if after the changes OSRS loses 50k subs? Would that make you happy? No one is going to play a game that gives them everything for free because then they'll have everything and there's no reason to play anymore.

[edgy vector]

That's...not what they're doing

You no longer hit a 0
You can still miss

Because hitting but not hitting is stupid

[chrome lava]

"This monster is too strong," or "this one is too weak"
This CAN be valid sometimes when it actively harms the content (for example, we had the tekton changes in cox because DWH rng being bad was able to ruin runs, while also being extremely annoying). Saying "leave the game as it is" is telling us that we shouldn't want change, which, if you didn't know, is how games die by not getting metas shaked up or updated in general.

[edgy vector]

Your entire point is moot because you are arguing based on something you misunderstood, m9
Making hits no longer roll 0-max but instead 1-max is such an extremely minor change that just makes it more intuitive to play like, you know, every single other dice-based game like OSRS is

[chrome lava]

I didn't even notice that mistake ngl

got a keen eye

[edgy vector]

I've seen like 3 people so far misunderstand that point of the post

Most of them are like "Wait so missing isn't possible anymore???" and when explained they go "Oooooh that makes sense"

Some people double down and are CERTAIN that Jamflex is going to ruin the game with EOC2 by removing 0s from the game!!!

[chrome lava]

yeah I've seen that sentiment thrown around not exactly from that one change

but the whole series of changes

[edgy vector]

It's fine to be wary of big changes, but so many people don't read any of it and just see they're changing a system and revolt

[quick flax]

I suggested Elemental Weaknesses/Weapon types update (not exactly, but something like it) a year or so ago. I was mocked, so I quit social media and started playing another game. You say that "games die by not having new metas" and you are a vocal minority saying that.

[chrome lava]

so you made a suggestion, got mocked, quit, then came back to say what you suggested is bad?

And that meta thing

when a meta is stale the game gets boring

[quick flax]

Like I said, vocal minority

[chrome lava]

wdym?

maybe in this game, yeah, except I wasn't talking about it as if it's an issue here

just in general

[quick flax]

Why are you talking about other games in my OSRS suggestions thread

[chrome lava]

it was theoretical

seems like you didn't catch that

[quick flax]

Stick with the context of the conversation. This is an OSRS suggestion thread not a political discussion style "use examples from all over the internet".

[chrome lava]

where did you see politics in this?

I brought up a mere possibility if what you suggested (keeping the game as is rather than changing things) happened and simply mentioned that there have been other cases (games) where this has caused them to die, or at least have a declining playerbase

[quick flax]

It's fine. I'm sure things will be fine no matter what they do. I'm asking the mods to close this thread.

[chrome lava]

Welp, guess that's it

hoped for some insight on those last claims, but oh well

[quick flax]

I typed out a lot, but it wasn't worth it to hit enter.

[floral sentinel]

acceptance

[quick flax]

It's too complicated to explain my point when I can't explain it eloquently.

[floral sentinel]

imma be honest i dont think its the way youre explaining it i think it just doesnt make much sense

and when people disagree and you say "well the people who disagree are the vocal minority" is kinda cope

[ionic crag]

You can call the dissenters a minority, but that doesn't say anything about the opposition having a valid point

In a game where half of the content in it is abandoned, why are we going for a full magic and ranged rework?

[floral sentinel]

its almost like jagex did that before and it resulted in the game dying

:fr:

[fresh ridge]

Like how Tome of Water is pretty much worthless compared to the Tome of Fire, which is just superior in every regard when it comes to damage.

And that's also even if you pretend the damage boost on the Tome of Water was 50% as well

[ionic crag]

And if all the tomes do is more damage, then for it to be good theyd have to either nerf the 1b melting stick or multiply the damage so hard it's unhealthy for the game.
It cannot give without taking.

[edgy vector]

Not all NPCs will have such staggering elemental weaknesses that ice demon becomes the norm
You know monsters can have stats that are somewhat close together defensively
Shadow will reign supreme at any place where elemental weaknesses are minor, the relevant elements will be good at places that have extreme elemental weaknesses.
I wouldn't expect Zilyana to suddenly be 500% weaker to one elemental type so Shadow will stay bis there
But something like a fire giant, a waterfiend, a dust devil etc could all have new weaknesses etc.

[ionic crag]

so the follow up question is what's the game gaining for menial creatures having elemental damage balanced to tome + harmonised staff?

There is no gain.

[desert sail]

you do understand the entire thing isnt being balanced around the harm staff...

[edgy vector]

?
What's there to gain from monsters being weak to any style, then? Variety and the game having more viable weapons than "just use tbow/bp/shadow" seems like a pretty clear gain to me.

[ionic crag]

Dodging the question

Well. more like repeating it then dodging the question

[edgy vector]

I literally answered it

[ionic crag]

What does the game benefit from EoCing ranged and mage

And so you don't forget point 1

What does the game benefit from EoCing ranged and mage in a way that it's balanced to harmo staff + tomes

[edgy vector]

Variety in what weaponry to choose instead of "just use the end game weapon everywhere for every monster" and giving everyone without those end game weapons a viable alternative

[ionic crag]

I don't know which game you play, but my clannies ENJOY being able to unlock A GOOD AMOUNT of content in the game with bp/bowfa

Variety for the sake of variety removes variety.

[edgy vector]

How do you know it's balanced to harm staff and tome? Sure, that'll be the strongest if the monster is weak to a specific element and solely that element, but not everyone is going to have one of those. This opens up viability for other content to have other methods for killing them except shadow/tbow/bp

[ionic crag]

My guy there's no way youre asking that

[edgy vector]

It's literally like asking why do melee weapons have 3 styles they can have strengths in and why do some monsters have different weaknesses there

[ionic crag]

You cannot simply believe Jagex will not balance it around 20, 25 and 50% damage multipliers

[edgy vector]

Because 1 weapon being the jack of all trades is boring a shit

[ionic crag]

Because thats what melee is in OSRS.

[edgy vector]

I fully can

You can disagree

[ionic crag]

Ok then I have no reason talking with you.

You can choose to ignore reality as much as you want.

Once the change is out

You will live to regret your opinion

[edgy vector]

I doubt it 🙂

[quick flax]

Seems the mods didn't close the thread

[floral sentinel]

theres not a whole lot to gain or lose

theyre prolly gonna have minor but noticible changes to like minor ass enemies

they arent gonna make a random ass boss now just free because its weak to mage by 50%

ice demon is a rather extreme example to it

but the whole idea of the project is to rebalance shit so why would they make the game more op

they just wanna make some parts of the game a bit more interesting

and yeah soley focussing on harm is kinda cringe, they just wanna make it so shadow doesnt fuck literally everywhere

[ionic crag]

To the contrary, there is little to gain and much to lose.

The plan is to EoC Range and Mage, fundamentally changing how both styles behave and are approached and yet in the same sentence I'm told there would only be minor differences?
When you change fundamentals everything on top of it changes too, whether you like it or not.
Because then, why are you going through the effort of the fundamental change? Why are we burning down a forest and then doing nothing with the plot of land?

Secondly, "make some parts of the game more interesting" and to that I ask, To Who?
Brazilians in my clan are of all shapes and sizes, that's one of the reasons why chatting there doesn't get boring, and in there I can safely say that nobody there is interested in EoCing range and mage.

The ones getting on top of their grind, unlocking the first big updates are out there enjoying playing all the new content they unlocked because they just got bowfa or fang.

The ones just before that are looking forward to experiencing all the content because they got items that are generically powerful enough to play the game.

The ones at the endgame were the only ones to talk about the possibility of this, but, for the case of mage, being reminded that they would need to grind Harmo + tome + wrath runes the idea dies off very quickly.
Not much was discussed about Ranged because Mage ends up being the main topic.

You brought up Shadow as an item that "shouldnt 🪿 everywhere" and I will heavily disagree on that after playing with it.
When ToA was first announced they wanted to add the Heka. Heka wasn't fun to use, required Charlie Day meme levels of nonsense to make use of the item... to get a marginal dps increase.
Thankfully Heka was shelfed and we got the Melting Stick in place of it. The Melting Stick does 🪿 and guess what, for a megarare, that's what I expect.

[floral sentinel]

the whole point is to make the shadow a little less usefull in places

[ionic crag]

You can do that easily without EoCing ranged and magic.

[floral sentinel]

how is this different than attack style weaknesses tho

[ionic crag]

Scythe was an underwhelming mega and will remain underwhelming after the "buff", and I put it in quotation marks intentionally

Shadow was the pendulum swing back to powerful megas and the amount of new metas, learning new strats and exploring that came along with it was one of the most enjoyable experiences I've had in this game.

In OSRS, only Melee has attack types.

[floral sentinel]

i get its cool but look at the shadow longevity wise

heres an item that fucks everything

how do you go from there

[ionic crag]

You have all the right to want range and magic to be EoCd to have them, but then it's no longer oldschool

I'm sorry how do you get a Shadow? do you spawn with one?

Does the mage tutor give you one before sendign you off tutorial island?

[floral sentinel]

????

thats not what i mean

[ionic crag]

It's a hefty grind to unlock it and you should be rewarded with such.

[floral sentinel]

shadow is the most common purple in the game

already after a little over a year of being in the game

it fucks like 90% of content in the game

how are thye gonna make another item

[ionic crag]

A) you're exaggerating the first sentence really hard

[floral sentinel]

also "its no longer oldschool" isnt a very good excuse

[ionic crag]

It is the perfect excuse.

[floral sentinel]

with 3 new raids a shit load of new content

[ionic crag]

It's in the game's title.

[floral sentinel]

the game is no longer old school

chatting

w/e i can argue with you all day and its gonna go nowhere

[ionic crag]

Alright this will be fun

Why are the raids not oldschool?

[floral sentinel]

"its not oldschool" with a bow that attacks based off magic level

scythe that swings 3 times

and shadow that will triple your mage acc and damage or w/e

i forget what shadow does

would you explain to me on how thats oldschool

[ionic crag]

Where does that make it not oldschool

[floral sentinel]

dense as

jesus

[ionic crag]

You're just listing what the items do

[floral sentinel]

real

idk ur just chatting

[ionic crag]

Why is a mega rare bow from a raid not oldschool because it gets stronger with your targets mage level?

You choose thsi hill my guy

[floral sentinel]

this aint eoc

bro ur literally larping

and coping

it aint that deep

[ionic crag]

You still have not explained why a ranged weapon that hits harder based on your targets magic level is not oldschool

All I see is dodging and nameclaling

[floral sentinel]

you think they had that shit in 2007?

[floral sentinel]

youre literally just talking based on ego

like youre saying your opinion is fact

im nto saying that mines factual either

but im saying the game isnt how it was on release

[ionic crag]

You made a point I am waiting on your explanation on it

[floral sentinel]

games have to change

eoc was unironically for the better

[ionic crag]

"because it wasn't there in 2007" so by that logic we can affirm that GOTR isn't oldschool

Which isn't true at all

GOTR sticks to the fundamentals of RC and puts it in a modern shell

[floral sentinel]

ok and how does that apply to the tbow

[ionic crag]

A more engaging way to train the skill

Tbow sticks to the fundamental of ranged combat and puts it in a modern shell

[floral sentinel]

can you explain to me how tbow is oldschool?

[ionic crag]

A more powerful ranged weapon to kill magic enemies

[floral sentinel]

and how hitting 80s is oldschool

and how the premise of the inferno is oldschool

[ionic crag]

Did you know Dharok set was there before the backup, we would hit 90s back then

[floral sentinel]

ok at 1hp

[ionic crag]

Or let me even be cheeky here

Soul's bane was there since the backup

And people would lose their minds when hitting 140s

[floral sentinel]

thats completely different

[ionic crag]

Then why is that different

[floral sentinel]

because thats a quest npc

that you do once

like i said dh requires 1hp

tbow just hits always

[ionic crag]

Dharok requiring 1hp sticks to OSRS combat rules, too

In fact it connects the dots

1hp means you die to any one hit, making you use overheads to stay alive, another pillar of combat

[floral sentinel]

yeah thats fine

dh is fine

but why does that same thing apply to tbow and shadow

[ionic crag]

So dharok requires you to know a fundamental mechanic of oldschool combat

Another fundamental mechanic of oldschool combat (although much less relevant in modern age) is the combat triangle

[floral sentinel]

i understand the combat system

[ionic crag]

Ideally you use melee to tank and kill a ranged enemy, and ranged to tank and kill a magic enemy

[floral sentinel]

you dont need to talk to me like im 7

but how are these items with consistant crazy hits with 0 tradeoffs oldschool

[ionic crag]

So we're adding a weapon that starts unuseable against targets that don1t have magic levels

[floral sentinel]

im asking a simple question

[ionic crag]

And becomes very powerful against targets that have magic levels

[floral sentinel]

and how is that oldschool

[ionic crag]

And it's not easy to get this weapon either, it's a long grind to get it or to buy it

[floral sentinel]

i get the premise of the weapon

[ionic crag]

Iunno man ive been telling you it follows the rules of ranged combat

[floral sentinel]

but like

[ionic crag]

If Tbow would only kill melee based targets Id be sitting in the weirdchamping team

[floral sentinel]

how are the ideas of the raids and crazy ass megarares that are released considered oldschool

if you want old school go play a private server man

[ionic crag]

Raiding is fun

[floral sentinel]

real

[ionic crag]

I want oldschool in the game called oldschool

And the idea that oldschool means "2007 locked" is a fallacy

[floral sentinel]

youre describing it like that?

[ionic crag]

And a tiring copypasta

You did

3 times

[floral sentinel]

the combat system has been played with for years

so adding elemental weaknesses like melee seems fine

i dont see how thats "EoCing" it

[ionic crag]

Because that's what EoC did to ranged and mage

cmon I thought that was on page 1 of the briefing

[floral sentinel]

ok they also added abilities

[ionic crag]

That's also on page 1 of the briefing

[floral sentinel]

waht was the main concern

yeah

theyre just adding elemental weaknesses

how is that different than melee styles

its just melee styles but for spells

lmao

[ionic crag]

Abilities, adrenaline, autoattacking, attack types for ranged and mage and hp changed to another scale of 10s

So we do agree on that!

It's just melee but for magic

[floral sentinel]

yeah

it aint a very complex concept

its already in the game

[ionic crag]

And we do agree that was on page 1 of the EoC briefing

Therefore...

[floral sentinel]

what briefing wht

[ionic crag]

Have you never looked into eoC like once? not even out of curiosity?

[floral sentinel]

true

[ionic crag]

Or went to rs3 to try the Necromancy combat skill, cause it doesn't have attack types either

Even though Ranged and magic do there

[floral sentinel]

do you not see an issue with ice demon then

the only people who surge are people trying to go remotely fast

and its the same premise for other njpcs

[ionic crag]

I have 1600 CM kc wtihout dust I have issues with everything thats bad about that raid.

[floral sentinel]

you dont need to attack iwth that if you dont want

[ionic crag]

And Ice demon is bad, but it's its badness starts and ends in that room

We're tlaking about expand that badness to everywhere

[floral sentinel]

why is ice demon bad tho

[ionic crag]

2+ invy spaces requires to go through that romo quickly

because it has a hard damage multiplier for fire and nonfire

Ill let you in on a secret

That's what it will be everywhere else too

Water spell? +50%. Nonwater spell? -50%

[floral sentinel]

i mean draco actualyl does like

a shit load of pvm

i feel like his insight is useful

hes doing max eff shit

[ionic crag]

Want to do this content? Oh Im sorry you dont have the right color of wrath rune spell, feel free to take 20x longer

Meanwhile, for melee....

Are you doing kq with Scythe? Alright, what's your armor? Ok for this one you use slash for that one you use crush

But you should really go get the blue parmesan because it will be better

[floral sentinel]

ok if you come in with the wrong runes

shadow will still fuck

[ionic crag]

For melee thing's aren't A then B, but for elemental damage thigns ARE A or B

[floral sentinel]

and also you werent prepared for the raid

like

or the boss etc

[ionic crag]

And that's the second part of why EoCing ranged and Mage aren't oldschool.

[floral sentinel]

i really fail to see your logic

[ionic crag]

But you got mad when I explained it step by step

[floral sentinel]

im not mad

i just dont understand your points

[ionic crag]

Thought we could speed up to get to the point quicker

Then I recommend you to check the long post I made about a Raid called Ragnarok, and how "keeping it oldschool in a modern age" was taken into account in every encounter there

Or scroll up and be sure you didnt miss any messages, cause my point is clear and follows the same line of thought

[floral sentinel]

nahhh

man imma just got continue on my projects

i cba wasting more time

[edgy vector]

That's just Merdapura for you

[prisma cave]

Here's the problem with magic in it's current state:
Powered staves or nothing.

[floral sentinel]

should just delete magic

[prisma cave]

?

instead of that, how about diversifying magic: There doesn't need to be a total overhaul of complexity by adding yet more layers of abstraction through elemental weaknesses. Instead, you polish the less appealing aspects. Magic is the most expensive style to use because of rune costs, and there are only three ways to mitigate this

1. hit harder
2. use a less powerful spell
3. staff of the dead/kodai's builtin rune saving

obviously hitting harder is the obvious approach, both because powered staves just outright scale harder, but they also often cost less, hit 25% faster, and don't have the stupid delay when attacking.
Occult getting heat only exists because there is not many options for mage damage, and the fact that shadow runs away with the max hit - 10% ain't that much brother

the tomes are a good direction to go with magic, however they could add more books to cater to different needs: Mage's book could implement the rune saving ability, book of the dead could not be a requirement and instead offer the standard duration of thralls, while casting without yields a much shorter duration

[floral sentinel]

nah

just delete it

get it out of here

no fuckin witchcraft in my game

[ionic crag]

What if I told you that's already what's ingame?

[prisma cave]

which part?

[ionic crag]

Powered staves offer single target damage,
Ancients offer Aoe/utility

Arceuus flopped hard to deliver alternatives because both combat spells there were balanced to 4t yet harmo can't autocast them

And the Standard book is the introduction

[prisma cave]

I've tried to get arceuus spells to work, I really have

[ionic crag]

Did you know demonbane spells don't work on Sire vents?

[prisma cave]

Yep, nor the spawns until they mature into abby demons. Already talked to ashe about those

thankfully, they did buff it so that you don't need to cast mark of darkness on your target, it's a self cast now

[ionic crag]

And that brings up my point.
Jagex failed to make what's currently ingame work to "diversify" magic when given all the tools and time.
But now they want to do that at the cost of EoCing magic behind it

[prisma cave]

but the fact that it has the casting delay means you can't realistically use this at any boss where you have to move. And guess what, the only two bosses this could potentially be used at, you gotta move alot

[ionic crag]

fun fact about those demonbane spells

[prisma cave]

magic just has so many shortcomings, not just in the damage department, but in the usability

[ionic crag]

They try to mimic god spells "charge".
god spells are unlocked at T60, Charge is unlocked at T80, working as a way to juice up the T60 slepp to T80

MoD is T59 and Dark Demonbane is T82

Why does a higher level spell need a lower level spell to work? (when it does work)

[prisma cave]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

they really lowballed the arceuus spellbook, which I'm kinda glad, because it means that we got thralls and death charge

but basically every other combat spell in that book is 👎

aint' it, chief

[ionic crag]

So that brings up the point on why magic EoC is a bad idea

They couldn't even make a demonbane spell that was better than sang staff at sire

If Jagex couldnt do that homework why do we expect them to ask for full permission to do a grad project?

[prisma cave]

they don't bother fixing spellbook spells because it's either
a. powered staves for single target
b. ancients for multi

nothing else really matters

[ionic crag]

Attempts were made with nightmare, but they aged horribly

(why not fix the dead content boss before considering EoCing magic is another topic)

[prisma cave]

nightmare staff solves one of the issues with spellbook spells

[ionic crag]

Harmo is identity crisis in item form

Trying its best to be a powered staff, getting all the downsides of being an autocast item

IMO they shouldve made it be an AoE focused staff with the extra benefit of a fire surge staff when needed

[prisma cave]

but the fact that fire spells need 50% increased damage to even compete with other styles really shows that it's been neglected

[ionic crag]

Last AoE staff upgrade was Kodai

Correction: Last nonwild AoE staff upgrade

[prisma cave]

kodai ain't even that bad, it just ain't a powered staff

-25% damage right out the door

[ionic crag]

Not an issue, its focus is being AoE

with a secondary perk of autocasting other stuff

[prisma cave]

yeah but if you're gonna say that, then it's just an overpriced ancient sceptre

[ionic crag]

Jagex can't make good weapons that aren't single target magic weapons up to the point they want to EoC magic just to do more single target magic weapons

Kodai is the go to for autocasting, free water runes (less relevant with divine rune pouch) and saves runes on cast

In situations on which you're short on invy space, you take eldritch for the spec since it has the same stats but different effects (variety!)

It's sad because everywhere you look ingame you find more evidence that Jagex had the tools to do what they claim they wanted to do but without Eocing magic

[amber coral]

yep pretty much this

in a lot of cases, when you want something to change, you need to give people a reason to go through with that change

you can probably just shadow the ice demon if you really wanted to, but are you going to? probably not

[prisma cave]

2/3rds of 66 is only 5 less than max fire surge, fully kitted out. Why bother bringing fire surge when shadow does basically the same thing

[floral sentinel]

that’s the point

it really doesn’t affect anyone other than people trying to do shit faster

[noble thistle]

I don't know if it has been said or not, but my opinion is one of the main pushing factors for the elemental weakness (and the range weakness) changes is it allows Jagex to continue to bring out Raids and Bosses with megarare gear and weapons without devaluing the current ones.

Yes, a lot of it just makes sense (Fire Giants weak to Water Spells) and it will help revive a lot of dead content (Javelins). But this is just a way of selling it. The real push would be what I stated above.

We already have t80-85 weapons for each style. We're only missing t80 armour for Magic, everything else has both armour and weapons in the t80-85 range. Currently, the next logical progression would be t90-95 gear and weapons, but then we'd hit a roadblock since the way to pass that would be to increase combat skill levels to 120/126. Doing these changes navigates the current way to pass this, which only helps the future content have better rewards.

[ionic crag]

It's not necessary for new megarares that dont devlue existing ones

#1151341461330219138 message

It's creating a problem to sell a solution.

[noble thistle]

so what problem is being created?

[ionic crag]

its in tthe thread's name buddy

[noble thistle]

okay, looking at the thread's name, it says "Project Rebalance | NO ELEMENTAL WEAKNESSES"... So how is this creating a problem and also a solution to sell?

[edgy vector]

Merdapura thinks that Jagex changing something that's been 'as is' for years is clearly an attempt to ruin OSRS and turn it into RS3 2

Despite every single person on the planet saying "Hey mage kinda sucks and is super unbalanced because nothing scales except staves" for as long as powered staves have existed

He thinks that introducing elemental weaknesses is giving a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and that because they've made this solution, they'll obviously have to create problems for it to solve.

When the problems it's solving have existed since OSRS existed

People have asked for a rework for how mage works since 2007 because it was always insanely weak

Similarly, range has always been too strong in OSRS because the "every monster weak to ranged is weak to all ranged" problem just exacerbates how insanely strong bp/zcb/tbow is

[noble thistle]

I have a fang and it should keep its slash and bonuses on slash 😠

just in case /s

[desert sail]

also because for the most part melee + range work against the same defence stats

while mage has different factos for accuracy

[edgy vector]

Yep
It's so many things that make mage god-awful

And reworking that before they try to introduce Shadow 2 Electric Boogaloo is something that's probably top priority

[noble thistle]

I am definitely for all these Mage and Range changes - not because it just makes sense, but for my reason that the game will struggle with powercreep soon, if not it has already. And eventually, we'll run out of spaces within combat skills without moving the level cap to 120/126

it is, its a temporary solution to a problem

this is too

but it has the chance to last longer whilst also keeping the 99s

eventually, if the game can last that long, they'd have to increase the level

[edgy vector]

Keeping many things viable is the only way to keep people from not getting burnt the fuck out on "Hey just use these 3 items everywhere and never touch any other weapon because it sucks lol"

it's SO boring never having to change gear setups for practically anything

[noble thistle]

it also means they can introduce phases into bosses more easily by forcing switches without it being "this is weak to range, this is weak to range"... now you could have a boss that is only weak to mage, but phases for each element

[edgy vector]

9 downvotes and 15 poop emojis

[noble thistle]

man, next year is stacked... project rebalance which means old content will be fun again, varlamore, and sailing

sailing will probably get pushed to 2025... its already a "maybe end of 2024" any way

project rebalance will but a huge change with just the range and mage changes alone

and even then, more people are happy with this because new skill

each boss is a problem to be solved

each raid is a problem to be solved

minigames are a problem to be solved

to be fair though, chopping wood isn't a problem to be solved

maybe we should make certain trees weaker to certain axes

[ionic crag]

Ironic you to use trees as an example

In a thread about EoCing mage and ranged

[noble thistle]

I'm memeing

in case you didn't notice

🙂

[ionic crag]

When Jagex just dropped Forestry, the most RS3 nonsense this game's seen

[noble thistle]

this is the EoC that people want

I've seen nothing but love for all of project rebalance on socials and in-game

granted there are people who are skeptical about it, which is 100% fair - but I've seen barely a handful of people hard-against it

[ionic crag]

So because people want it, it should be done?

[edgy vector]

So because Merdapura doesn't want it, it shouldn't be done?

[noble thistle]

we are a game that literally goes by what people want

[ionic crag]

Last I checked, Maduro was elected into power, venezuela must be flying in all that oil money

would be a lot easier if my wishes were granted without question, for sure

But that's not how things work

Which is why I use rationale to support my claims

[edgy vector]

People saying Mage and Range have been issues since the game came out and Jagex proposing a solution to those issues = corrupt government

???????

[ionic crag]

Great you're missing the point

[desert sail]

im pretty sure its the point of dev design

[ionic crag]

I like when you blatantly skip the connecting dots

Is it because you have no point?

[desert sail]

every new boss introduces a problem to be solved. future weapons can be used to help solve things better

[edgy vector]

Merda you don't use rationale for anything lmfao you bumble around like a Runescape Nostradamus making bullshit predictions and claims out your ass 24/7

[ionic crag]

"people want magic and ranged eoc"
"people wanted Maduro into power"

people wanting something doesnt qualify it.

That's the point you overlooked for whatever reason.

[noble thistle]

but if the majority vote for it, that means people want it, no?

[ionic crag]

That doesn't qualify it.

[edgy vector]

The cool thing is that when Jagex and the community both think something is a problem, they work on that problem! 🙂

It's like it's part of the charter of OSRS

This isn't the game from 2008

[ionic crag]

Oh you wanna get pedantic

Fine.. fine...

https://runescape.wiki/w/Evolution_of_Combat#Weaknesses

Two can play that game.

[noble thistle]

lmao

[edgy vector]

HAHAHA

[noble thistle]

that wasn't even the issue with eoc

[desert sail]

did he even read the first line

[ionic crag]

It's part of

But again

Read it

[edgy vector]

Nobody who hates EoC hated it because it introduced elemental weaknesses lmfao

[noble thistle]

the issue was eoc changed runescape from a point-and-click game to a wow clone

[ionic crag]

Oh really, and your claim of that comes... from?

Source: trust me bro

[desert sail]

a complete rework of RuneScape's combat system, released on 20 November 2012. Described as "one of the largest content updates in RuneScape's history," the evolution brought a variety of new content, including powerful abilities,

[ionic crag]

EoC is a package

[noble thistle]

people actually liked dual wielding, people actually like ele weakness

[ionic crag]

Not A or B

[edgy vector]

Except you can add 'parts' of something without adding the whole thing

[ionic crag]

Source: Trust me bro

[edgy vector]

You fucking dunce

You can add something without adding the whole of it??

[ionic crag]

You're not ready for a debate, lets just get a chatmod here to tell you to pipe down

[desert sail]

so literally every new bit of gear we got in the game = EOC?

[noble thistle]

trust me bro - I was around runescape during eoc days

[edgy vector]

I've been having a completely fine debate with people that actually bring up points that aren't "Jagex is just like the Venezuelan government tbh"

[desert sail]

EOC is quite literally the overhaul of the combat system

[edgy vector]

Is Ice Demon EoC?

Is Guardians EoC?

[desert sail]

making monsters weak to specific types of weapons is just expanding the exisiting system

making me press 1-9 to use prayers/spells is EOC

[edgy vector]

No bro no don't bring up opal bolts bro they've been around since 2007 that means despite having features of EoC they can't be EoC because despite me saying that any EoC is all EoC that part doesn't count bro

[ionic crag]

How do you choose to spread lies like that?

[ionic crag]

Like legit, Ive explained the point twice in a row

[noble thistle]

don't get us wrong - you're allowed an opinion, you're allowed to have views - but we can criticise them too

[ionic crag]

And you choose to skip the point because you think its wrong

Yet you have nothign to sya against it

[edgy vector]

Nah I choose to make fun of shit points lmao

[ionic crag]

You got lucky the modmail command isnt working

[edgy vector]

I'm quaking in my boots man you've got my timbers all shivered

[desert sail]

5 more correct points from joining his ban list. be careful

[edgy vector]

I remember yesterday he said "I have no point conversing with you anymore in the future" I thought I was already in the clear

[desert sail]

i understand not everyone will like the elemental change

OP atleast voiced reasonable concerns

[edgy vector]

Yeah that's fine to not want it

But crying "It's EOC you'll live to regret your decision!!!!" is just so hilariously alarmist

[noble thistle]

either way - before EOC, gimme sof 😠

[edgy vector]

Like when people bring up "Bro they're making it so you can't miss anymore bro they're removing 0s from combat dude" which just shows they didn't read the blog

[desert sail]

like re-reading it they basically suggested to do what we did to arceuss spellbook where you upgrade it to a more useful version

i disagree, but its an opinion that atleast makes sense

but shouting EOC for any changes to mechanics is just 😪

[desert sail]

most people dont read blogs. they get a tldr from a thread and go with it

[slender glen]

Lets keep this on topic and not name call anyone

If you have issues with users please block them/ignore them

[desert sail]

simple system with weekly updates for 10 years is gonna run into that issue

Eventually you need to go back and ammend something

[edgy vector]

Sure thing, apologies.

[slender glen]

you arent exactly innocent either

[desert sail]

Only becomes a problem if its forced onto everything woth no other viable option.
But gotta wait for the beta