More items to permacharge

[ember light]

Just keeping this one short and sweet, it's a list of items I wish considered alongside scythe/sang/shadow when it comes to permacharge/upkeep buff

Tomes of fire and water
Large amount of pages to fill up and never degrade

Harmo staff
Powered staves get a buff but my boy is still left to be forgotten, it's less about the charges and more about the rune usage (rune pouch can't fit 2500 casts)

Autocast in general
I dont personally feel like they will be an issue if powered staves and harmo eat less runes, but I want to keep them in mind for whatever solution comes

Dragon tier ammo (darts, bolts, arrows)
Specially for helmet people, sustaining dragon ammo is an ordeal. Talked with some homies about a quiver item we activate with a large upfront cost of ammo.

**Crystal armor **
You'd thought I'd forget it, I didn't

Barrows equipment
Less of the money and more about not having to deal with the annoyance, it was added in the early days of rs2 to not devalue dragon and now dragon and some barrows pieces are at alch value

Crystal equipment and tools
Annoyance

Rev weapons
No idea how to balance this knowing they're the pinata mechanic for pvmers. Maybe a higher upfront cost and a portion of it is lost on death? Keeping the theme of expensive convenience

Arclight
Full sending arc on slayer bosses goes through charges very quickly.

Blood fury
Priority 1 imo is making multihit attacks not eat more than 1 charge, after that I'm up for what's decided for it

[quartz elm]

i would also agree with a no for most of these, especially staffs and high end tools should have a cost bound to them and especially when runes are are cheap as they are these days, paying even for a sang is no problem at all

[autumn turret]

Oh also this seems like its basically implementing the boots theory

[winged heron]

[nimble sonnet]

Arclight is probably the only resaonable thing on this list tbh

Crystal armour.... i mean sure why not , its not like it takes a lot of charges to begin within anyway

the rest is a non issue and would just crash prices for the sake.
like why on earth would we allow unlimited arrows. Avas already gives 80% save which is huge in itself

[quartz elm]

i think this all is from the standpoint of an

[nimble sonnet]

thats fair , but just allowing unlimited everything is something you would have to offer to non irons too to avoid unfairness

which then causes economic issues long term once most end game players dont need the resources

[quartz elm]

ye agreed

i mean i own a tbow, even if i do a full day of toa runs i only spend a couple of 100 dragon arrows and ud be fine with amethyst

[nimble sonnet]

i would be okay if they proposed high level method of making these items which work with the economy ( Chisel vorkath bones for dragon arrow tips , unlimited charges in the elven signet for crystal tools)

[nimble sonnet]

yeah i think i bought 8m worth a few weeks back and probably only lost 1m of it from inferno and a bunch of toa runs

the only range item that cost a lot to use is the balista

[quartz elm]

yee dragon arrows on an iron isnt to hard either u tend to stack up quite a few just going for it

[timber loom]

IF anything personally i feel items have to go the other way. I dont like how there are permanent variants of loads of things. The cost of the upkeep is something that actively factors into the balancing of weapons & armour whilst being created and designed.
If you dont sink the items they consume then they just get cheaper and cheaper and more worthless, so the only people you're effecting are those without the permanent ones.
People who would be able to afford the perm versions of the items, for sure can also afford the upkeep.
We should be looking at the methods to obtain the charges over making permanent options in my view.

[surreal blaze]

Give some npc that repairs armour a quest. After quest make the npc able to super charge barrows armour for like 500% instead of 100%

ofc only 100% and 0% are only tradeable

[nimble sonnet]

I agree on this for range weapons things like Blowpipe / Toxic trident where the actual cost to charge isn't high enough to make people think twice about using it & there is an expectation that these weapons require ammo.

but having melee charge items that cost way to much per use or require a constant top up of a non tradable source (arclight) just leads to people avoiding those items altogether, in favour for weapons like fang/whip/lance which kind of makes their resource cheap anyway.

a perm version just lets people pay their fair share in advance and not have to worry about losing charges/money when using the upgrade. it also keeps people committed to items when you cant recoup the cost to perm it

[timber loom]

Whilst id be inclined to agree that the arclight shards are more RNG than anything to charge the weapon, i'm very much of the school of thought where if you wanna use the best stuff, you gotta accept the downside of charging it.
Most bis, if not all in my opinion should have some sort of continued cost associated to it in one way or another.

Maybe i think this way because I've not really put my HCIM in late game PvM i dont know.

[ember light]

We should be looking at the methods to obtain the charges over making permanent options in my view.

I agree to this path, which is why I wanted to make this list so that every ammo is listed for the update

Amethyst is cool and all but bulk mining for not bis ammo it time I'd have invested somewhere else

[quartz elm]

then dont play an ironman, u made a choice my guy

[nimble sonnet]

But then there are different types of players to take into account.

you're at a stage where you probably don't really care about the short term cost since you have the funds to get and do whatever you want. People who are on that journey actively avoid items with sinks. i had no issues or concerns when i got my first scythe and was doing TOB/COX since the purples make up for it.

however whenever i thought about using it anywhere that wasnt feeding me atleast 2m/hr it just didnt seem worth and i would skip using the weapon or just not bother with that content. An option to perm charge ( or give me a discount for max charging in one go) , would atleast get people like myself to use it in more places

I guess for most irons its just a case that they prefer to do 1 big grind then move on with their upgrade. I think thats fair for melee weapons atleast

[timber loom]

Yeah the issue is solely an iron one in that respect. Irons cant just sell the items/duplicates to replace charges.
If you could sacrifice things in order to acquire charges , like duplicates ETC then you could do the content youre wanting to do in order to continue doing it.

The "youre an iron and you chose it" Was how i used to think but i think its massively ignorant and unhelpful.

I feel that's why we're opening up the discussions about rune packs etc. Working with irons to make ways that feel reasonable to all.

[ember light]

hombre that adds nothing to any debate.

dammit Roq why did you type faster than me

[timber loom]

I would rather we found solutions that require an over time sacrifice than a one off though. Cost over time i feel is better in the long run for the game too.

[ember light]

Will those solutions be a one big batch or each supply addressed at a time?

[timber loom]

although mains do not have as much of an issue to get the supplies, they still have to get rid of something to get them and use them, whether thats gold, drops etc.

[quartz elm]

yes there adressing runes with this next quality of life updates

bulk boxes of deaths and bloods i belive?

[timber loom]

We're only discussing the ones outlined in the blog right now. IF we did everything it would be an iron only focussed blog that doesnt really do much for everyone as a whole.

[ember light]

Not necessarily iron only

While for runes it makes sense, dragon darts are still expensive to maintain for ge enjoyers

[quartz elm]

well bloods rn on the market are only 200 gp each for mains so the cost for like a sang is pretty much the same as ac trident

[timber loom]

these kinds of changes are absolutely iron focussed. and in terms of Quality oif Life polls, we need to be able to address multiple things and areas at a time as the polls only come eveyr couple of months.

there is a main theme of QoL polls then we look at misc stuff for other groups and comminities too. For this one its the combat achieveemnts thats effects everyone, improving a minigame and the misc

[quartz elm]

but technically with ranged with the avas assembler i barley use any ammo as it is tho 🤔 if u get like a stack of say 5k dragon arrows thats gonna last u months off high end pvm

[ember light]

I don't think enough mains use ddarts on their bp, would lose to see data to prove me wrong

[quartz elm]

i do for toa, chambers and inferno

[ember light]

Case in point, you don't use them everywhere.
Secondly, you're one person

[timber loom]

keep it civil and dont be antagonistic

[ember light]

I like hanging out in the brazilian clan cause there are people at all stages of the game

[quartz elm]

mostly i use amethyst ammo for both tbow and blowpipe even as a main

[ember light]

And I can bet that only a small fraction of mains with blowpipes there use ddarts

[timber loom]

as far as i personally feel ranges weapons have no reason to be perm if they use ammo purely because of the avas devices.

[ember light]

avas is a huge gamechanger for ammo

holup

[quartz elm]

ud be correct its only for high end content ud use dragon

[ember light]

Has Jagex ever considered a MA2 cape upgrade to have a similar effect than avas but for magic?

[timber loom]

No

[ember light]

It would technically help with the upkeep of those

[quartz elm]

kodai exists for that reason

[surreal blaze]

ma2 cape that atracts random low tier runes like avas

[timber loom]

you dont use a kodai for everything where as the MA capes are bis for mage so are fequently used

i think thats the point theyre more getting at

[nimble sonnet]

it is!
you will see people throw away their banks for a tbow rebuild since it has a low operational cost. now and again you see this for shadow & TOA.
at 400m bank nobody is selling everything for a scythe rebuild because of the high cost.

[ember light]

Kodai's effect is also at the limit of being noticeable

[quartz elm]

ye but i also dont think the cost to use a trident is that rough, iron acc or main

[ember light]

But also yes, so if you're doing magic switches then you'd have to consider the ammo saving effect from the cape to it would most likely get priority over others in a tight space setup

[nimble sonnet]

i've noticed from my own habbits that the higher your bank the less you will care long term

[surreal blaze]

no one does scythe rebuilds because, ppl dont know how to tob

[nimble sonnet]

but operational cost is definitely a source of people wanting perma charges. its why you see mains corrupt the bowfa even though they can buy charges

[ember light]

I think there's some to be explored in this path tbh

[quartz elm]

i would say no, id be upp for the reverse, better gear with higher cost

better for the value of things

[timber loom]

i think the whole point for irons is it depends on what that cost is.

[quartz elm]

or more options to break down current drop into consumables

[timber loom]

its not fun gameplay to do something thats shit for 6 hours to do 30 minutes of something fun. and ultimately games are about having fun.

I think there should be some grind and upkeep to high tier items, but id be more open as to what that upkeep is. I jsut dont feel perm options are at all the way to go.

[ember light]

well depends on the item

I will die on the hill of permacharge crystal tools and armor any day

[quartz elm]

yes ofc

[ember light]

Scythe I'm willing to listen to an alternate to perma

[nimble sonnet]

yes. but TOB being the only real viable place for it since it has a high cost to use is part of why thats an issue.

From a main perspective you can do a tbow/bowfa rebuild without needing to learn cox , since avas makes it cheaper to use.
From an iron perspective people are happy to do the CG grind since once they’re done they have their bowfa to use freely , which seems to be the prefered playstyle

[ember light]

And something to increase supply of dragon darts

[timber loom]

are you implying you're unwilling to listen to the others merda?

[quartz elm]

honestly no

[ember light]

On crystal armor and tools? Only Mod Ash can change my mind

[surreal blaze]

no ppl do cg rush, because there are literally no other paths to end game on iron

[timber loom]

Ok so if yorue unwilling to discuss things with anyone but one person why are we having conversations. because that doesnt help anyone.

[surreal blaze]

rcb scaping is just horrible

[ember light]

That's not what I'm saying

[quartz elm]

ikrr toa poops em out like candy

[ember light]

What I am saying is that the arguments brought for not having crystal armor and tools are nowhere near convincing enough

[timber loom]

only Mod ash can change your mind. therefore us discussing them here would be moot.

Hence why i asked for clarification on your initial statement

doesnt have to be convincing but you just said you were not willing to discuss. thats whollly different

[ember light]

And often they're along the lines of "you chose to play ironman lmao sit"

[timber loom]

Crystal armours themselves are balanced with cost in mind. To make permenant versions of them, arguably they would have to be made worse. Which i dont think would go down so well.

[quartz elm]

i dont see either the cost of either crystal armor or tools to be an issue, the armor dosnt degrade if u dont take damage and the tools are so good they should have a cost to them

[ember light]

Its not an issue it's annoyance for minimal integrity gain

Which is why the theme of paying a large amount upfront to not deal with the annoyance, applied to blade and bowfa, should be also applied to the remaining items

[nimble sonnet]

range weapon wise?

they can still do zulrah first for BP , GWD for ACB + ZCB and i guess DHCB from COX

[surreal blaze]

all of those are horrible without bofa

[ember light]

We have Masori in the game, crystal armor lost its cool gimmick of higher prayer bonus ranged armor

[surreal blaze]

• bp is no alternative to bofa rly

[timber loom]

Crystal still has a reasonable amount of use because of the bowfa

if you want the bonus you pay the cost that is the point and part of the balance and design.
Any item that gets perm charges shoudl be made worse than the costed version. That balances it out more, but is still not ideal.

[ember light]

And we can permacharge bowfa to not worry about its charges, but not the armor. Haven't done proper math but the what? 15 shards/piece/hour also adds up

[quartz elm]

if u dont take dmg its 0 charges

[ember light]

Protection prayers dont prevent charge drain with chip damage

[timber loom]

Just because we can do something doesnt mean i necessarily agree with it. Here im talking personally, as i have iterated many times throughout my comments. IF something is for the benefit of the game it doesnt matter what one person thinks its more about the collective.

[ember light]

And more often than not we see a new post on social media asking for perm crystal armor

[quartz elm]

u know 15 chards is 1500 hits? what are u fighting?

[timber loom]

and we see just as many saying no that we shoudlnt do it.

[quartz elm]

i even think the bowfa shouldnt have an unlimted option, all ranged weapons should have a cost imo

[surreal blaze]

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Pestilent_Bloat#Normal

[quartz elm]

[timber loom]

with discussion comes education. just because a suggestion is made doesnt make it good. Its the discussion between poeple who are for and are people who are against that can come to an end result.

[quartz elm]

ye and i think once you get into some high end content @ember light ur gonna see that most ammo and most costs wont mather too much even on an iron its just the initial grind to get the ball rolling

[timber loom]

blood runes is by far an exception to that rule. hence the discussions.

[quartz elm]

most content u do tend to give u supplies to keep going

albeit, with a few added steps as an iron

@grim hearth id guess only with a shadow no?

[timber loom]

getting souls is worse than bloods.

[quartz elm]

ye true

[timber loom]

Then if you look at deaths, theyre alot more common in passive play for sure. but they would then be the only remaining rune without reasonable alternatives, so thats in there too

[quartz elm]

ye but for dragon ammo at least

cox/toa and vork etc usually gives alot

u can get up to 600 from one cox

irons usually stack up in the 10000s going for a tbow

unless they get spooned i guess

[surreal blaze]

venator bow is easy way to fix too many arrows problem

[quartz elm]

totally agree

yep

and these days with cheap bloods its only about 900k/h to use a scythe

the funniest one i saw was add a stab option for the scythe 😆

id like that

or at least 50k?

also, increse on buylimits on bloods/souls etc?

imo bloods souls should be 60k for a maxcharge of a scythe/shadow/sang

[ember light]

Toxicity in front of a mod? My guy you have no idea what content I do in this game.

[quartz elm]

[nimble sonnet]

i mean i guess i can live without using scythe in most places until i genuinely don't care about short term costs

and maybe the solution is just to have higher profit bosses available for higher costing weapons

[ember light]

Won't even bother listing my kc here, just have this be your last warning I will not put up with this low tier level of trolling.

[quartz elm]

i kinda wanna see hes kcs now

prove me wrong

[nimble sonnet]

but until thats the case if future BIS weapons are going to be given large costs to use , please just make it charges that are

1. Tradable - nobody wants to feel like an upgrade comes with chores
2. Obtainable at a comparable rate to what you're gonna use. ( Kind of what blood runes are like now @ 10k/hr)
3. Reasonably obtainable from more than 1 method. Bowfa & crystal items works since you have various activities to get shards from in the quantity that works. Zulrah scales work less effectively since its only zulrah thats effective. Scythe has issues since there is no method outside of Shops/End game RC that gives bloods in large quantities

[brisk warren]

Correct me if I'm not remembering correctly, but I believe there was an idea tossed around at one point to sacrifice tob uniques to create charges for the scythe? Whether through an npc or the blood well i don't recall, but get x charges for y item. Would this ever be something you could see being implemented for scy or other items like the shadow? Blowpipe has something similar with being able to dismantle into scales.

[timber loom]

I personally wouldnt have an issue with such things myself no. Unsure as to whether its an actual option being discussed though.

[vestal vessel]

These were the proposed options right? From the reddit post

[timber loom]

bvlood runes themselves are already in the bin lol so price is more irrelevant than ever IMO packs will sink IM gold like nothing else but i personally feel thats just boring.

im not sure what that really has to do with this discussion topic.

[vestal vessel]

More questions.. what is your preferred solution out of those @timber loom ?

[timber loom]

personally id rather people create the runes themselves. but realistically thats just not fun, engaging or enjoyable in any sort. But then again neither is buying rune packs. 🤷
Packs solves the issue the fastest and most convenient, but i think its just lame, but i feel that'll be what people want the most.

that sentence structure was awful.

TLDR, I would rather they were crafted, I feel like people will want packs.

crafting runes will never be better than shjop scape. the effect on mains would be horriffic. which is unfortunate. cause mains wont be buying rune packs.

It is what it is, but i woudlnt be surprised if packs are the end result with maybe one or two other things that benefit elsewhere

[vestal vessel]

How would you even "improve skilling methods further" though? We already have GoTR, RC outfit.. maybe more things like blood essence?

[timber loom]

cries in 250k bloods crafted

[vestal vessel]

Can you do something weird like "take the staff to the altar & charge it there to get a 25% bonus on charges"?

[timber loom]

anything ins theoretically possible.

most irons wouldnt sink dupes. because they have a main they xfer it to for bond money a dupe shadow is god knows how many bonds

scythe would likely be the only one people would be willing to sink its where the biggest problem lies

youd have to consider how the charging well works though

cause then youre alllowing scythes to be converted to vials of blood and blood runes

(that might be acceptable im not sure)

[brisk warren]

Make one of the 4 wells special would be easiest i imagine. Others remain as normal where can reverse but cant sink items.

Special one lets you sink dupes upon upgrade with hmt drop but cant get charges out. Make the drop a one time like slepe tablet/xeric tablet with guaranteed drop after x kc to upgrade the well. Special verzik acid maybe for lore reasons that eats away at the items?

[timber loom]

its not that simple. youd need to create a whole new set of scythe items as well and tie them into everywhere the original scythe is.

[brisk warren]

Im not a dev or know anything about coding. So I cant say I understand what you mean. I was imagining ->put avernic/justi/other tob unique into well->well gains x charges that can be added to scy

[timber loom]

i know what you mean. its just not as simple as typing the sentence 😛

[brisk warren]

Never is easy, devs are computer magicians afaik. Damn if I know what is/isnt possible

[surreal blaze]

wdym this discord is not a wishing well, where we cast our dreams and they just become reality?

[scenic vector]

reason we dont permacharge most stuff is to create a sink

zulrah scales with bp etc

i feel like scythe is in a wierd spot rn but mostly due to lack of content making it good

dragon ammo stuff seems very ironman esqhe idk id rather they just create a way to give irons darrows

like toa with ddarts

[ember light]

oh speaking of zulrah, forgot to say serp helm

[burnt thistle]

What about things like making runes worth more charges for scythe and shadow with high RC? Or when you charge it at a rune altar?

[white otter]

agreed 100%. The only exception to this rule should be crystal armor. The elven crystal equipment has an affinity for becoming more efficient with more use, and already has a few items that can be corrupted, permanently aligning it with the user. Why not armor? Why not armor?

[ember light]

Gonna be fun when chip damage protection prayers make crystal armor lose 2 or 3x charges depending on slayer task because the damage stops being fully blocked

[vestal vessel]

I think bonus at altars sounds kinda cool

[real bronze]

IMO, out of those listed, I feel corrupted Crystal Armor and tools are perfectly fine. Although maybe instead of corrupting crystal armor, you let one out of charges just not have the crystal weapon bonus. And just let it stay as a stat stick. Much like how the tools are still usable as dragon tier when out of charges.

The others, I can understand, especially from an Ironman standpoint. But some feel like it would just destroy the purpose.

Tomes, I personally feel a permacharged version isn't the worse idea.

As with the Arclight