Dungeoneering, Summoning and more Pre EOC content

[coarse harness]

Ill step up and say Gauntlet is Dungeoneering done right.

[lucid hamlet]

-mom I want dungeoneering.
-we already got dungeoneering at home.
dungeoneering at home: gauntlet

[vale jolt]

This

[coarse harness]

Why would you want them to put the bad version of gauntlet in the game?

[lucid hamlet]

I haven't tried gauntlet but it looks vastly inferior to dungeoneering. For one thing it's not gated by some high level, needlessly high skill quest like 70 con, agility, herblore etc. With dungeoneering you could take a level 3 with no items and start having fun. It was very rewarding at the time, best weapons in the game. Gauntlet... idk, money maker? Maybe elite combat achievements? There wasn't any need for me to do it. Dungeoneering gave great passive xp in all skills

[brazen slate]

Entire essays have been written about why Dungeoneering was a bad skill—it's not really worth rehashing here and now (though it's worth mentioning that the OSRS developers strongly and publicly agree with that sentiment). The short of it is that roguelike minigames definitely have a place in RuneScape, but a single minigame isn't and shouldn't be an entire skill. 🤷‍♂️

[rancid snow]

One of my biggest gripes with dungeoneering is that a lot of the fun of it for me comes from the idea of a group of people coming together and each bringing their own strengths to the table. That idea really doesn't mesh well with runescape since every character can max out all their stats

And it's important how rewards are presented as well. I never felt rewarded for training dungeoneering in rs3, I only felt punished for not training it.

Summoning training is just yet another bank-running skill like smithing and runecrafting, and some of the summons like pack yaks are far too game-changing imo.

[lucid hamlet]

I can agree with the fact that it's a minigame and not a skill. But we already have the foundation there, assets, ideas etc, we can take those, try to fix them and implement them in osrs. Why throw away the work?

Do you have a link for these "essays" that explain why dungeoneering is bad? I have no doubt that some people dislike it, but I want to understand why

[brazen slate]

Well, I'll start with the big one, which was the very first bullet point in the blog post where the devs asked for new skill concepts. 🤔

[lucid hamlet]

maybe you've gotten too used to modern rs3 where everyone runs around with max cape and 200m xp. But when dungeoneering came out, it did matter... some of us had high fishing, some of us had high thieving, you can't just instantly max out all your skills. It would take years. I think you're really downplaying just how extremely difficult it is to max out. The idea was for example from jagex, someone focus on mining and smithing to smith armor at start, someone can fish and cook, someone can hunt and craft leather armor.

The thing is that people are too impatient and modern dungeoneering is nothing but a combat fest and just opening doors with your skills. It didn't help the fact that jagex needlessly added complex naming conventions to everything instead of putting a (t1 novite) and (t2 bathus) plus, as good as the xp rates there are, they still should be buffed.

Plus it's not even worth it to actually skill in dungeoneering except MAYBE planting a seed for a herb to make a potion that boosts your skill to open a door. But if you start fishing or cooking, everyone will laugh at you.

[lucid hamlet]

you mean tortoise not pack yaks. I think you completely forget just how long it takes (or took me 10 years ago) to grind the charms, and gather the money to train it. Nerf some, buff others, jagex just wanted to add something good to the game and it powercreeped a bit too much with pack yak maybe. The other summons were nowhere near as useful as pack yak.

[rancid snow]

I mean in FSW I think I would really enjoy this aspect of dungeoneering but even in modern osrs I think I would still have the exact same problem.

[lucid hamlet]

fsw=? Also I gotta ask, did you happen to experience dungeoneering in the first year when it came out?

[rancid snow]

acquiring charms is generally something you do passively. Both the process of acquiring and using charms are both common points of complaints about summoning

[lucid hamlet]

I think if you add dungeoneering to osrs you should only make it as an optional minigame and do a complete rework of the rewards. Plus severely add skilling xp rates... like I said everyone goes 100% combat there and 0% skilling

[rancid snow]

fsw = fresh start worlds. And I experienced it mostly around 2015-2019

[brazen slate]

The next biggest criticism is probably just the fact that if it didn't exist, none of the content would be any different. Like, the actual skilling checks involved in dungeons involve smithing gear and fishing for food and picking locks—all pre-existing skills that could be trained and utilized inside dungeons whether Dungeoneering was a skill or not.

It's kind of an extension of the first criticism, but it really boils down to the fact that it's nothing at all like the other skills. The other skills are (mostly) self-explanatory staples of MMOs, and have intuitive progressions and unlocks. Contrastingly, every activity one might associate with Dungeoneering is just a different, pre-existing skill. 🤔

[rancid snow]

i definitely meant pack yaks, but any beast of burden is still a huge powercreep imo

like the amount of work you have to put in to get an extremely specialized form of inventory expansion, like herb sack, rune pouch+upgrade, coal bag, etc, feels so wrong when BoBs exist

[lucid hamlet]

in 2010-2011 when i experienced dungeoneering almost nobody was maxed out, so we always said somehing like "86 thieving ggs, group gatestone" so whoever had 86 thieving would open it. And since we all had different stats, nobody was maxed, and the dungeon was always tailored to our stats, it did work with the concept of some people being able to open certain doors, others not being able to.

But the way dungeoneering worked was, doors that required over level 99 to open were very rare. So if you were 99 thieving, you'd almost never have problems with thieving doors. But if you were a very low thieving level, you'd almost always have problems opening them even in solo dungeons.

The common problem for all of us were, of course, the runecrafting doors... we'd always try to have a runecrafting pot ready. Maybe even 2.

But you just don't see that in 2023 rs3 because everyone is maxed.

[brazen slate]

The one place where I think Dungeoneering could exist as a skill is if it was much broader in scope, like an 'Exploration' skill that covered the best parts of sailing to new islands, meeting and gaining favour with new NPCs, solving puzzles and reading cryptic maps, finding buried treasure, and, of course, gaining access to dungeons. Even then, I think it's a bit of a stretch and would require a lot of content to fill it up--much more than I've listed here. 🤔

[lucid hamlet]

yes. So... don't make dungeoneering a skill, make it a minigame, and the problem is fixed, right?

[brazen slate]

Yeah, The Gauntlet is already an example of basically a stripped-down version of Dungeoneering in OSRS. 🤔

[rancid snow]

as for summoning and dungeoneering, i would 100% rather the dev resources go toward other projects. Even if dungeoneering is a minigame.

[brazen slate]

Also, fun fact: this was almost a skill--back before even the first RuneScape beta at the turn of the century. Ultimately, it just became the quest point system, which obviously unlocks new quests and guilds, and therefore new regions and dungeons and bosses.

[lucid hamlet]

except the gauntlet looks like shit, just 1 dull color, gated only to high level players, and the only rewards (That I see) are gp. I'm not an ironman so I don't need to know the details, do I?

Dungeoneering had best in slow 1 hand slash weapon, 1hand stab weapon, a "Herbicide" similar to bone crusher but for herblore xp, I don't know what else it has now. But like I said, dungeoneering in osrs needs entire rewards reworked. I got no reason why I'd bother with gauntlet. And the 1 single boss doesn't seem welcoming... what is he like 800 combat? Dungeoneering had a vast array of fairly simple bosses, easy to figure out solo, almost no death penalty and was a lot more colorful.

[brazen slate]

The Gauntlet actually gives some incredibly powerful unique combat gear including the strongest non-raid ranged and melee weapons. That being said, The Gauntlet isn't even remotely comparable to Dungeoneering as an entire skill--it's a pretty simple minigame, all things considered, which was released in the same update as a lot of other content, including the entire city of Prifddinas. 🤔

And still, for content released in 2019, it's proven to remain very popular and very relevant to the broader economy. 🤔

[rancid snow]

It's only corrupted gauntlet that's gated by stats. You can probably do regular gauntlet with like 75 combat tbh

[tall pebble]

we got rigour and augury cox and cg take inspiration from dung I think we will continue to see more aspects of pre eoc in osrs

nex legit pre eoc

nm inspired pre eoc dpick

osrs is legit a mesh of all eras of rs imo

oh ye runious powers legit pre eoc inspiration

[vale jolt]

Dungeoneering better than gauntlet in my opinion

But thats just my personal opinion

[tall pebble]

it is i agree unironically i think dg has more content then majority of existing skills combined but then again alot of skills are designed in early 2000s

[vale jolt]

The excuse for Dungeoneering and Summoning to not get into the game was that they dont need another skill on osrs

But now they are going to add a new skill anyways

[tall pebble]

only reason i want to see dg is the gameplay loop was so good imo was one of the most unique and fun skills to train imo

[vale jolt]

I liked everything about it, the different range of bosses and enemies, floor ambient and thematic, progressive difficulty

Ost

[rancid snow]

If you check the picture posted earlier, it also says very specifically they don't want to add a skill that is confined to its own space separate from the rest of the game

and I wouldn't really count the dungeons you unlock across the world as part of that, since that's basically just what task-only areas are in osrs

[vale jolt]

For the new skill yes