game-update

[nocturne solstice]

facts

Barrows claws when

[hasty shard]

barrows cat upgrade

lets you hunt crypt rats

[true talon]

first we need burning dragon claws

such wasted potential with that.......

combine burning claws into dragon claws to get burn effect + 30% spec (maybe not this)

[nocturne solstice]

quite the buff there

[minor whale]

That would be absurd lmao

[true talon]

ya prob just the burn effect would be enough

[minor whale]

Just burning claws by themself are better or on par with dclaws in a ton of places

Combining them or even just making dclaws have burn would put them over every other spec in the game

[nocturne solstice]

I think the problem with all this upgradescape without wanting sidescape is that you just end up with nothing left to combine. Makes things stale instead of having to choose between what to bring.

[true talon]

so what

stop making so many items

[minor whale]

Buff this item so it's stronger than everything in the game

So what

[nocturne solstice]

sounds incredibly boring

[minor whale]

It's hard to think you're not baiting with half the stuff you say like this

[true talon]

how is it stronger than say a voidwaker on a boss thats not slash weak?

[minor whale]

"Don't add so many items, just completely change this item into something stronger than everything else"

[nocturne solstice]

Cant wait for the scythe with fang attatched so its the best weapon in the game and every future melee upgrade is just another lucky charm to upgradescape onto it

[minor whale]

Avernic Burning Osmumten's Scythe of Saeldor

[nocturne solstice]

All armor upgradescapes into crystal true

[true talon]

Personally i woulda added mega upgrades to each difficulty of the raid.

Cox CM = tbow stat increase upgrade (twisted bowstring)
HM Tob = scythe stat increase upgrade (sanguine blade)
TOA Expert 500+ = Shadow stat increase upgrade (tumenken's orb)

I dont like that end game difficult harder modes of the raid is not worth doing past cosmetics

[minor whale]

Lmao

Buffing tbow and Shadow

[nocturne solstice]

I can understand the appeal but also I dont like that

[true talon]

funny you left out scythe

[nocturne solstice]

Like, I know runescape is a grindygame, I don't want to be "forced" to keep firing on all cylinders for a 1000kc grind I have to do

I prefer taking it easy, doing some raids with friends, just chattin n shit and suddenly a few hours went by and we did a buncha raids and got a purple

[minor whale]

Scythe isn't widely regarded as absurdly overpowered
It's strong and shouldn't be buffed imo but the idea of buffing it isn't entirely absurd.
Wanting to buff tbow and Shadow is patently ridiculous though

It's like asking to buff Oathplate and Ancestral and Inquisitor
I'm not gonna balk at the Inq suggestion but I would make fun of the other 2

[true talon]

i didnt mean it as a buff, i meant pre release

i woulda had a weaker tbow/shadow/scythe an had their hard modes off a upgrade

[minor whale]

Then you'd really have people bitching about not being able to do solo hmt lmao

[nocturne solstice]

I prefer the current system. Doing hardmode is for cosmetics that tell everyone that you beat the hard content (often multiple times). Normal difficulty should have everything imo because that should be the standard and expected difficulty of the raid that you'll be grinding for loot.

[true talon]

ehh tob not being solo is a problem in its own, but it can be fixed with minor changes

[hasty shard]

hardmodes should offer incentive to do them more than literally once

one can only ego jerk so much kc

better loot incentive is a shockingly easy way to do that

[nocturne solstice]

I think that works for the other raids but CoX is weird

The scaling makes it weird so easymode can be better for points

I dont really see a solution without implementing hard caps or something

[minor whale]

I don't think making a megarare that is now locked to just the challenge mode is a very good idea

[true talon]

its not? the improved version is an it would be untradeable wep upgrade kit

so everyone who cant do it, will not have the most power similar to inferno cape

think of it like corrupted megas in dmm vs real megas

not that big a power gap but small one

[minor whale]

This seems like you just want to enable ironman mode on people for no reason except to give even more incentive for doing a challenge mode on top of it already being better gp/hr unless scaled and more common uniques and cosmetics and pet cosmetics

It just seems like a wild overreach for weapons when they've never made weapon upgrades untradeables

[true talon]

? its not enabling ironman mode on anyone, its having players who are skilled enough doing hard content to get their power spikes......

[nocturne solstice]

It does sound pretty ironman modey ngl

[hasty shard]

the hard cap is 1+99 :clueless:

[nocturne solstice]

Make the hard cap 1 and everything else is just to have a bad time

[hasty shard]

actually has someone even done a 1+99 i wonder how viable that is

[minor whale]

It'd also mean the megarares are worth way less for mains

[true talon]

thats like saying infernal cape is ironman for everyone......

[hasty shard]

like id assume you end up voiding a lot of points but hmmge

[minor whale]

Is there an upgrade to a buyable cape that completing inferno upgrades?

[true talon]

it wouldnt be worth less..... it be more powerful for those who can do the content at a high lvl

[minor whale]

Untradeables on their own aren't bad, but locking weird upgrades to content that are untradeable upgrades is bad

Bruh

The base version being less powerful

Would mean it's worth less as a whole

[nocturne solstice]

Infernal and firecape are kinda ironman modey as you're forced to get it yourself. I think some of that is fine especially quest unlocked but to make megarares? the big money makers for raids? nah

[true talon]

its motivation and incentive to be better?

it leads to progression and self improvement

just like infernal cape

[hasty shard]

this could be the megarare salamander

[true talon]

no1 gives a shit about being in white armor or dark black armor....

[nocturne solstice]

It doesnt motivate people it makes people angry, we've already seen that with the ironman community angry about MA and MA2 being wildy

[hasty shard]

honestly i wish white armor was better

[true talon]

What??????? how would it make people angry that they have to do the difficult content to get the most power? what kind of entilted bs mentality is that

[nocturne solstice]

For it to be megarare we need it bigger

a real chonkey

[nocturne solstice]

Yes people are entitled, they want their cake and eat it too

[hasty shard]

i cant use tecu on my snowflake

zero way to get herb tars

[nocturne solstice]

F

[true talon]

well tell them to get good or kick rocks

this is a game of merit not handouts

[nocturne solstice]

I would rather just explain the situation instead of being aggressive but that's just me 😅

[minor whale]

Guy who constantly begs for dragon arrows to be easy to get:

[nocturne solstice]

This is a game of economy, the people with skill get items and sell it to people without skill.

The people without skill do easy stuff to make a few bucks to buy the good items.

[true talon]

????? lmao you think d arrows is the same as asking for end game raids to offer a power spike to those who can do it?

[nocturne solstice]

The rich buy those cheapo items to save themselves time so they can grind harder content

Its a nice economy

[minor whale]

"This is a game of merit, not handouts" guy when the bis endgame ammo isn't freely given to him from skilling methods:

[dawn jackal]

they already have plenty of upgrades in this game you have to do challenging content to obtain

[true talon]

you mean the game is not giving me something im trying to obtain with ahrd work? wow shocker that you call this a handout

[minor whale]

Hard work is when no Colosseum but yes afk slayer or fishing or whatever you've suggested a dozen times

[true talon]

never suggested anything like that

I actually suggest quiver be tradeable for d arrows

so that its merit method of farming them

[dawn jackal]

maybe i'm misunderstanding the conversation but if you put the best items in the game behind CM raid completions or hard mode or whatever you call it you don't have incentive to continue raiding

[minor whale]

Oh sorry
Not fishing
It was hunter

[true talon]

not hunter, i was talking about the new monster which is going to be dropping venator fangs

Jagex came up with that method, not me

i said for them to impliment it to be a farmable source as its described and not some random 1/100 drop

[true talon]

guess you cant read? it literally says system similar to mole skins/antlers? meaning turn them in for the resource???

[minor whale]

Asking for Jagex to make this hunter method give consistent dragon arrow tips seems like exactly what I'm talking about

LOL

[true talon]

i compared it to antler??

which converts into bolts......

[dawn jackal]

not that the dragon arrow from hunter suggestion ISNT silly but i don't really see the relevance to the other conversation

other than its suggested by the same fella

[minor whale]

"there is said to be a hunter activity for this content right"

[true talon]

he went off topic

[minor whale]

And you want that to give dragon arrow tips

And you're saying I can't read?

You wrote it!

[dawn jackal]

its very ok for irons not to have convenient access to everything in the game

thats kinda the point

the upgraded mega rare from raids is pants on heads stupid though

[minor whale]

He quite literally said "people can't expect handouts" and he's suggested ironman handouts constantly and asks for free dragon arrow tips every month

[dawn jackal]

i would like to keep beating that horse

[minor whale]

I'm making fun of the juxtaposition of it

[dawn jackal]

its really important for raids to have a large community of people motivated to do 100s of them

otherwise the raid will die very quick and will be solo only content

and by gating the best gear in the game behind a skill check you would kill the raid

[minor whale]

If 10% of people can complete the harder content for an untradeable upgrade then the base item is going to be remarkably cheaper

[true talon]

its not handouts you are an idiot

anyways, if you cant do hard content just say so

[dawn jackal]

hmm

[nocturne solstice]

Lets not go in that direction and just stick with his arguments

[minor whale]

🤨

[true talon]

i went to far on that yes

[nocturne solstice]

If you think he's wrong about comparing your opinions of

• Dragon ammo should be easier to farm
• Players shouldn't expect handouts

Then just explain why they're different 👍

If he wont listen then thats on him

[dawn jackal]

i think having hard mode / aspirational content doesn't really work in this game to begin with

[true talon]

wrong it does, but it being cosmetics or gate kept does not

if you think inferno is not aspirtation or quiver then i dunno what to tell you

[dawn jackal]

its just really hard to balance loot tables and the challenge level

[tender harness]

mfw brutus slippers

[dawn jackal]

there isn't a hard mode inferno

you have 1 piece of content

[sacred oracle]

Calling people idiots is not only a poor way to have a discussion but is also not very nice and not in keeping with the rules of the server

[nocturne solstice]

I think the entry-normal-hard is a good system 😅

[dawn jackal]

i think the problem is hard is either worth doing or not

and then it becomes the default method or its ignored

[nocturne solstice]

Lets inexperienced players try the content, get familiar, then really challenge them for cosmetics. And with the cosmetics other people know you're more experience so they're more willing to raid with you.

[dawn jackal]

i think that works well for irons actually

[nocturne solstice]

Its an MMO so social rewards make sense imo

[dawn jackal]

but for main accounts easy - normal - hard is not super effective

[nocturne solstice]

I think hard being just for cosmetic flex or a bit of a better drop rate is fine. Changing everything around is a bit much.

[dawn jackal]

agree there

if you want a hard mode putting some cool cosmetics that are easily identifiable is fine

[true talon]

cosmetics do not do this lol

infernal cape is both cosmetic and power spike thats how end game apsirtational content should be.......

[dawn jackal]

again, infernal isn't really aspirational content in this sense

[true talon]

what? yes it is

[dawn jackal]

there's not a hard mode infernal

that gives you the infernal + cape

[nocturne solstice]

I would say raids arent endgame and the hardmode/CM are tacked on so they should be just that, tacked on.

[true talon]

Infernal was peak aspirational content......

Everyone aspired to complete the inferno

[nocturne solstice]

This is of course, also completely ignoring how scaling with actual players in a party affects drop rates and stuff.

[true talon]

its not as hard as it used to be, but its still difficult

[dawn jackal]

i fear you are missing the forest through the trees

[nocturne solstice]

And how the raid experience would feel if your party member got a purple, oh its an untradeable tbow upgrade, good for you man.

[minor whale]

Tradeable endgame difficulty stuff is always what the endgame community is asking for, not even more untradeable stuff

[dawn jackal]

your original point was that hard mode content should give you a tbow +

[minor whale]

Making something good but also untradeable also kills it for mains

[dawn jackal]

i suppose i should use another word other than aspirational

[minor whale]

Once you get the raid mega upgrade why ever do it again?

Get a dupe and can't even sell it?

[dawn jackal]

yea thats the issue

and for a raid to survive you need people to want to do 100+ raids

[true talon]

it wouldnt be a dupe drop system, it be 1 time drop upgrade and once you attach it no longer drops. or maybe it has alch value, like the fang kit. there is plenty of ways.

[chrome lantern]

I do think that Yama actually has a big flaw by being “locked” behind a specific gear, honestly, there’s not really any other content in the entire game that does that and I would call that a major shortcoming. I don’t think that “do you have (a) synapse(s)” meaningfully adds difficulty to the encounter, and we don’t see this anywhere else

[minor whale]

So...why would you ever do it again except for fun?
We're back to the cms being not worth doing lmao

[round lintel]

Doom

[nocturne solstice]

What if you lose it then from pk or accidentally sell it to the general store? This is all getting overly complicated imo.

[chrome lantern]

Nope! You can do it without even if it’s not as good

[round lintel]

you can do yama with ahrim staff so

[nocturne solstice]

If the same thing happens with infernal cape or fire cape its just "You suffer, go get it again" but when its a random drop item from a raid not a guarantee? man thats suffering.

[true talon]

prob just fang kit approach, its alchable and can be reclaimed by redoing the raid, if you lost a mega from being pked then you got bigger problems lol

[chrome lantern]

Yeah it’s nice to have a scorching bow but by no means required

[nocturne solstice]

Fang kit is guaranteed then and your solution doesn't work anymore right? You do it once and no more incentive to do CMs.

[chrome lantern]

The dps difference is significantly more at Yama because Scorching bow scales a lot less than arc/emberlight. But yeah honestly I guess you “could” use just arclight if you had infinite charges

[true talon]

i didnt fully flesh it out, that was just the concept of an idea to make doing raids at highest lvl.

[nocturne solstice]

yeah all good, still in the ideation stage n all

I just think as a whole, the hard mode giving bigger dps unlocks works for singleplayer games but less so in MMOs 🤔

[dawn jackal]

its just ironman thinking to ignore the economy

[true talon]

this is more of a single player game than mmo

[nocturne solstice]

Cmon now saying stuff like that is just being dishonest

[true talon]

it doesnt ignore the economy.....

[dawn jackal]

if you put the untradable scythe + upgrade item behind hard mode TOB it just kills the raid on the spot

people do not have incentive to grind the raid 100s of times then

[minor whale]

The raid already is encouraged by being better gp/hr, this doesn't actually fix it because people would just 1t quit the second they got the item just like with kits now

Very very very few people do hmt for funsies

[true talon]

thats because its bad and getting teams for it s bad

plenty of people do cms and expert toa

[nocturne solstice]

Expert toa is kinda easymode too tbh

We'd have to be discussing like, 450+ at a minimum to even compare imo

realistically probably 500s

[true talon]

TOA can be fixed, readjust the bosses stats. add mechanics stop making everything be so damn tanky.

do away with majority of the invos as they dont do anything

invo's should be base to the bosses mechanics

but also properly balanced

[nocturne solstice]

Everything can be adjusted. If it's a fix or makes it worse though... might be a matter of opinions 😅

Like, you're suggesting changes to the bosses. I think a lot of other people would rather focus on droptable changes and say that's why ToA is shit. Then complain about baba puzzle room

[tacit wharf]

im just glade the fixed the unreasonable chip damage in a few rooms

[true talon]

whats wrong with drop tables? TOA is shit because the bosses suck and puzzles suck. drops is pretty much fine

[nocturne solstice]

I dunno how you can say that when drop tables was the primary complaint since day one and echoed by everyone here in the server and youtubers

The drop rates for purples were too high too much supply crashed the prices

[true talon]

oh you mean the white loot is bad

i agree its mostly seeds

[nocturne solstice]

no i said purples

[true talon]

500 was 1/7

tob is 1/9

cm is 1/13 i think

[nocturne solstice]

The point was that what is considered a "fix" is subjective and this is the fix the vast vast vast majority wanted with you disagree with

So yeah, adjustments are easy but a fix is super subjective

[true talon]

vast majority wanted better purple rates?

[nocturne solstice]

No

Reduced, significantly

[true talon]

why? the only problem was 8 mans popping a 1/1.5 rate

[nocturne solstice]

I already said why 😅

maybe that didnt send

[winged mantle]

You could do a 6 person 420 and basically hit purple cap

[true talon]

wasnt the supply, it didnt have any sinks either

[winged mantle]

That's crazy

[nocturne solstice]

what does sinks matter? Tbow and scythe doesnt have sinks

whats the sink for ancestral?

[true talon]

yes they do

[narrow folio]

I'd rather the rates not get touched more than they already have at this point.

[nocturne solstice]

They all have the same sink, GE

Whats the sink for Tbow and scythe?

[true talon]

GE tax is used to buy raid uniques

[narrow folio]

Nerfed purple rates just turned it even more unmotivating and prices havent climbed enough to make it worth it so its just a lose lose

[nocturne solstice]

Okay so the same sinks, they're the same.

If we even call that a sink

[true talon]

shadow is cheaper, because its vastly worst as a stand alone item

[nocturne solstice]

I think that's objectively false

It's more accurate and versatile than tbow (at a higher cost)

That was a big problem with shadow, it was too good and too cheap.

[true talon]

shadow is not good unless you have the several hundred million worth of support gear

[nocturne solstice]

That was true, now it's not since the mage gear rework iirc

[true talon]

thats still true, its even more true

[nocturne solstice]

nah not really its not a ridiculous difference

In the grand scheme of things

Like im not denying having BiS makes a difference

but it's not so bad to the point shadow is unuseable

This is on giant mole (was thinking of a mob both shadow and tbow is used at)

[final frigate]

i don't think the gear issue matters too much when the mega itself is cheap enough anyway

even when shadow was 1+b max mage was on par or cheaper than budget tbow/scy

[nocturne solstice]

True, even if the shadow needs a couple million in gear. The tbow is 1.585b rn and the shadow is 861m, that's almost half price.

[final frigate]

and you always want good gear for your weapon it's not like just because you can dhide tbow doesn't mean you want to

[nocturne solstice]

You have hundreds of mill difference that will absolutely cover the bis mage gear

[final frigate]

also it's only really anc that's notably expensive, virtus is very chill and decent

[old shadow]

Just to clarify, you think that the supply of shadow has nothing to do with its price?

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah virtus is really good too and you can camp it for a long time. Covers slayer bursting/barraging too

[old shadow]

And you think that it is cheaper because it is a weaker stand alone item?

Because that is objectively incredibly untrue

It is a weaker stand alone item, that part is correct

But shadow’s fall from 1.4 -> ~1.1 -> 1.0 had nothing to do whether the item was good or not

Nothing different was introduced

Nothing meta changed

That drop occurred pre ayak and was due to the introduction of ToA bots being released to the public

The further decrease in shadow’s price had to do with it not being sunk for a while, ayak being introduced, scythe’s newfound dominance in pvm, elemental rebalance cope and other shit

[narrow folio]

Shadow isnt even that dominant nowadays

[old shadow]

But the initial hard decrease in price was

The supply

Keep in mind this was at the time when shadow was just kind of shitting on everything content wise because there was no real melee option

And there was no ayak

[final frigate]

it's still too common in lower raid levels imo

[old shadow]

Yeah it is

[final frigate]

because they reduced more % the higher the raid level

[old shadow]

There were 5x shadows in the game than t bows and scythes combined years ago when i did calcs

I’m pretty sure that number has gone up

[final frigate]

so the 300-400s which is some of the most commonly farmed bracket is less affected

[old shadow]

It’s the supply and to think it isn’t the supply is very foolish

Actually i’ll reword that

It’s not foolish since one can just not know the osrs market, but it is ignorant of just how common shadow is and just how much supply affect an items’ price point

[final frigate]

they hit 400/low 400s which was good but they were significant anomalies to start with

so even if they're nerfed to "normal levels" they're still too high imo

duo 300s higher purp than solo 500 is just not right

[old shadow]

I think shadows shouldn’t’ve dropped pre 300 to begin with. No reason why simple content should reward a mega rare. Effort in 150s does not warrant a 800m drop, much less a 1.4b when it was floating around there

[final frigate]

even with the weight scaling at 500 it's just so much purps being printed at low raid levels

[true talon]

thats like saying normal tob and cox shouldny drop their megas either

[old shadow]

?

No it is not the same?

[final frigate]

entry tob doesn't drop purps

as it should

[true talon]

entry tob is also a failure

[old shadow]

Cox and tob are both harder than 300 toas

[final frigate]

entry tob is fantastic

[old shadow]

Shadow shouldn’t drop pre 300 toas

[final frigate]

it's what <300 toa should be

[old shadow]

I think that rewards should be associated with complexity and difficulty of content

My other opinion you’d probably disagree with is that delves shouldnt reward shitters for clearing 1-7

And drops should be locked to 8+

[tacit wharf]

well thats a bit harsh

[final frigate]

i think 6 7 8 is fair

or 7 8 9

ayak being the earliest one

[old shadow]

789 would be perfect

[true talon]

ye thats the mentality they go with loool

[tacit wharf]

considering most of the players are worse then me

[old shadow]

Is it wrong to disagree with drops becoming more and more common and easily accessible rather than a reward from challenging content

ie yama drops, delve drops, toa drops

[true talon]

everytime its brought up to try an improve content, they cry its to easy, should only drop rewards at highest lvl, people learning it shouldnt be rewarded with anything. even at the rarity the lower tier content provides

[tacit wharf]

and i find it challaging to clear 6+

[final frigate]

doom drops literal endgame bis

[tacit wharf]

means that even an above avg player like myself, is thus considered as a "shitter"

[final frigate]

that you don't even need until you have billions in bank

[old shadow]

People would still get rewarded for learning content lmao

That part is so disingenuous

You learn content when you clear it

[final frigate]

also the price of doom uniques would go up multiple x if they're locked behind 7+

[old shadow]

A literal early game player that beat jad can clear wave 2 of delve

And get an endgame item

[final frigate]

since it filters out majority of casual players

[tacit wharf]

im not saying they shouldnt go up

im saying yr "going up" is skewed

[old shadow]

789?

7 can be cleared by an average midgame player (assuming definition is pre-cg, pre-pnm, post-qpc), 8 is hard, consistent 8+ is very hard

I think that’s fair

[final frigate]

people need to stop thinking that they should be able to clear all content and obtain all rewards no matter what

if you want to do difficult content then learn and practice it

[tacit wharf]

lets look at actual numbers

[final frigate]

nobody spawns perfect at everything

[tacit wharf]

3.6%

that is the number of players that have cleared wave 8 doom

[final frigate]

most of them haven't even bothered

or tried like 2 minutes and gave up

same as inferno colo

precisely because rewards are too free

[tacit wharf]

less cuz hcim and alts

[old shadow]

Do you think that number would go up or down if rewards were locked to 7,8,9

Logically it’d go up, right?

You don’t have to spam money 1-7s for a free 12m/hr

You’re forced to learn 8 and 8+ for good gp/hr

[tacit wharf]

well if yr already spamming 1-7's u already doing 1-8's

[old shadow]

7 and 8 are incredibly different in difficulty

[final frigate]

also most people aren't doing 1-7 anyway

[old shadow]

Like it’s a super massive jump it’s not even funny

[final frigate]

1-6 way more common

cause of speed increase on 7

[old shadow]

It’s kind of like 0 effort until wave 7 where you’re like damn this shit is kinda just as hard as vard

[final frigate]

like imagine you suggested instead of full inferno you could do 1-35 only and each run gives you half a cape

[old shadow]

Then you hit wave 8 and you get railed pretty quick in first attempts

[final frigate]

inferno completion would be fucking 0.1%

just do 1-35 twice and you have cape

[old shadow]

Exactly yeah

I don’t understand why players want content to be so overwhelmingly accessible

Well the truth is i do know why

Ironman mode

But that’s a whole different discussion

[tacit wharf]

im sorry i just cant take you serious when u say something like this

[old shadow]

??????

[final frigate]

do 1-20 for quarter cape 1-35 for half cape combine pieces for full cape gg

[old shadow]

I think delve 7 is the same difficulty as like an enraged leviathan that has 500hp ish

Which is pretty not bad at all

I think most players can handle that, no?

[final frigate]

probably easier cause doom is in bursts

[nocturne solstice]

i would say no 😅

I think most players dont even have quest cape

[old shadow]

Yeah then let me rephrase

Most people that regularly engage in pvm content

Could absolutely just glide past that

[nocturne solstice]

I would still say no cause those guys are probably camping like, vorky, zulrah, muspah, huey, royal titans.

[tacit wharf]

sorry just think your a bit outta touch with what an actual player can/cant do

[final frigate]

someone consistently farming dt2 could do lv7 doom consistently

imo

[old shadow]

Idk man i consider myself shit at the game and 1-7s are pretty mid game feeling

[nocturne solstice]

A lot of people are just not that good, Jagex knows that which is why we had the mid game era for a while to get those players up to speed

[tacit wharf]

u find 1-7's a no-brainer and you consider yrself shit

i believe yr in a need of a reality check

[old shadow]

Yeah i just don’t like how they’re approaching midgame

[final frigate]

it's a common sentiment because there's not much talent required in majority of osrs

[old shadow]

Yama drops are super common with dry protection

[final frigate]

you just go in and die and practice

anyone can learn

[old shadow]

ToA shits out loot regularly for being relatively easy content

[final frigate]

again same for things like inferno and colo

[old shadow]

Delve shouldn’t’ve given rewards in early waves

[final frigate]

most people never attempt it more than 30 minutes and call it impossible for the next 5 years

[old shadow]

It just feels like jagex has shifted from

[thick beacon]

imo it should just be 15-20% better rates to get bow its far to rare if u arent doing mscales. esp if they are considering buffing a grind as fast as cg. idt anyone would argue tbow being rarest mrare by far and cox having most problems with its rarity/drop table

[old shadow]

“This is difficult content, let’s give it difficult rewards” to

[nocturne solstice]

I think delve woulda felt better if the number of waves to ramp up was halved and things just got to "8+" at w4

[old shadow]

“Let’s make these rewards accessible to more people”

[nocturne solstice]

to me w1-6 does feel like filler

[old shadow]

Which is fine if they weren’t fucking endgame gear and scaled better towards the midgame players doing the content

They did propose that wave 1-3 skip item

Would’ve been nice to have

[final frigate]

Would rather they just condense it so it's more like 3 5 7 8 or something

[minor whale]

To be fair to Jagex, it was the players that called that idea shit

[nocturne solstice]

like it coulda been w1 same
w2 = 3 projectiles + easy car
w3 = 3 projectiles fast + fast cars
w4 = w8 difficulty with 6 projectiles and fast cars

[minor whale]

It would have been significantly better to have now, but like everyone was crying about it

[final frigate]

Yeah

[old shadow]

Colosseum rewards are absolute shit

But you can get an 88m drop at a HIGH drop rate from yama for arguably one of the easiest mid game bosses?

That was proposed as endgame

For whatever the fuck

[final frigate]

Purging staff afk mage camp boss

[old shadow]

Yeah it’s so bad

[minor whale]

I don't know if that's entirely fair, I mean Inferno doesn't have any drops and Colo was the bis moneymaker for quite a long time
It sucks the uniques are down but it was in a good spot for a while

Yama is just WAY overtuned for how quick drops are

[old shadow]

And toa, and delve

It just feels like jagex is designing endgame reward space in mid game areas

[nocturne solstice]

Im not surprised, it makes sense from like, a business perspective.

Majority of players are mid game, make the stuff midgame difficulty wise

if people cant beat it, they wont play the game, less membership

[old shadow]

My issue is the rewards being geared towards endgame players though

Rather than appropriately scaled to content difficulty

For instance: bowfa from cg is something i find perfectly placed. It is hard content but nothing i would call endgame

Why do treads drop from wave 6 doom

It just doesn’t make sense

[nocturne solstice]

It's all a bit complicated tbh. It's just a buncha reasons all a mess

[final frigate]

Literal dragon boots is enough until you have like 5b bank but give treads to a 100m bank scobower

Pog

[thick beacon]

do mains delay treads? i guess its always mrare>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[final frigate]

Yeah

At the very very least 2 megas

[true talon]

Feel like these fall under cerb boot upgrade path. you get them as a last item to complete your gear

if you need cheap tribrid boots araena is very good

[hard axle]

did they change how scroll boxes work?

Noticing them dropping clue boxes even though I'm capped now

[bronze kernel]

I noticed this for beginners and it's kind of annoying when I Turael skip

[meager flame]

this stuff isn't a real problem

like

people are operating out of some fictional universe where the best gear used to drop from mega difficult end game rewarding activites

before doom we went to the pinnacle of pve

cerberus

and before that it was the deadly spiritual mages medium clues and mta

like lmao

its WAY better than it ever was in terms of rewarding people for doing moderately challenging content

not that i think people couldn't ask for end game stuff its just basically

they've done that twice in the history of the game

and we're all here so lol

[round lintel]

I dont know full story of this conversation but im not up for nerfing oathplate but I do wish they buff Torva

Maybe give some stab bonuses

[vivid ruin]

I think torva is fine as the best str bonus set. We could use a seperate stab set to fill that hole

[hard axle]

It used to be beginners only, but now it’s expanded to other clues too

[bronze kernel]

JAGEX!

[weary stag]

Oh nice there is a plug in to recolour the new fish/hunter meat to back to what they were

Did a strong majority of players use the plug in to change them to the colour they are now or some shit

[chrome lantern]

I don’t think a majority of players have even used any of the newer foods. I certainly haven’t

[weary stag]

An excellent point

Did a strong majority of the minority of players that used the yadda yadda yadda xD

[chrome lantern]

:p

[modern temple]

Why they did walk back on pirate encounters
Is the only reward going to be that useless sacred groove?(And why is even an altar there)

[ashen yarrow]

there was a lot of negative feedback about the pirate encounters and it would have been hard to make them invade your ship with meaningful mechanics

[winged mantle]

Plus the ship is already cramped. If it was us boarding their boats it might have been a hit

[minor whale]

Irons unironically asking for access to a shop version of the GE is so funny

"Make all shops infinite stock who cares nobody will abuse it lol"

[steel linden]

Some shops could certainly do with being infinite, like rune shops

[ashen yarrow]

they added scar extract as option to skip shopscape for runes

[vivid ruin]

I keep saying that they need to make an area where we can man a ship (similar to the traders ships) as a group. Where we can control our own cannons, someone drives the ship. And we can customize it or something. Make fire arrows useful, add a flamethrower of a sort, etc etc

[scenic ibex]

Scar ore mines when?

[modern temple]

Even without the boarding it would have been cool tbh

[modern temple]

At least 3-4 tiles were available ☝🏻

[humble heath]

folly doesnt need a buff jagex what are you smoking

[narrow folio]

Maybe to make it equal to zaxe

[humble heath]

lets devalue rapier/fang even more

thats all itll do

[narrow folio]

Personally idc if folly gets a buff or not and tbh it doesnt fill any useful niche. But rapier and fang would still be way better

[minor whale]

I don't see how a worse option than either rapier or fang, a significantly worse option at that, would devalue either of those items

[ashen yarrow]

the main buff could be reducing defensive stats/hp on boss or allowing to kill it off task. Item stats are good

[ashen yarrow]

its pretty impossible to make folly a best options since dual macuahuitl are so strong. One handed options current folly is slightly worse than zamorakian hasta

[obsidian venture]

Was this from a blog or something

[earnest light]

I liked bluefins quite a bit, they made them look more raw than the raw version now, used this a lot at kq, kbd, etc
Moonlight antelope looks like cancerous goop now, used this a lot at grotesque guardians, sire, yama
Marlin looked cooked before but now looks more raw again? Used marlin rarely due to price, basically only one in a wildy triple eat
Halibut looks like piss now, i liked it blackened. Bluefin snowy knight halibut on enrage phase of leviathan and dont even prayer swap just heal damage and do damage
Whisperer kinda same thing, just do massive heal that helps w/ prayer too

[meager flame]

Ya they said they were considering buffing it

Truth is though it fills no useful niche so all they’ll do is take away from other existing weapons or make it easier to go obtain so you can do nothing of note with it

Dudes are just finding out that you can’t actually add a niche for everything at every tier because the game just simply has nothing to do with it lol

I do think making it easier to obtain would help but I’m not sure if it would really be worth the time anyways

The thing the zombie axe does so well is that while it’s actually not very good it is very easy to get for how powerful it is

So it slides into a progression slot for a lot of people

If it took forever to get it would just be some bs like a bludgeon nobody will ever care about

[true talon]

Ehh some shops are just hop and shop, don’t see a harm in unlimited stock. Ofc there is problems on some shops like the gem ones. But again you already hop worlds for these.

Majority of shops can be unlimited stock and it wouldn’t matter

[hard axle]

I've made this joke since 2018, but irons would immediately accept a potions shop with price changes since so many of them legitimately hate skilling.

There's a guy on Twitter who was being clowned on for not being able to handle snaps/ranarrs without wanting to quit.

Same for every item. Majority legitimately are better off beintg bronzemains

[compact flicker]

Then buff rapier ktnx

[meager flame]

i used the plugin to change the colors of meats but

im pretty sure its different than what jagex decided to do

[true talon]

not really. i think prep phases are one of the best parts of being an iron

Its why im mad that d arrows is not party of mine 🙁

[hard axle]

Make a refundable spec like purging staff and add a min hit, congrats rapier is now the Voidwaker inverse

[true talon]

You come off a grind and then your out of supplies, so you spend a week farming, gathering 2nds, preparing for the next grind. really is awesome. good way to mix up your gameplay.

over sending pvm all day everyday

[hard axle]

And yet, supplies and prep are a big complaint

[true talon]

whiners tbh

[hard axle]

correct, they’re like ticks in a forest

[true talon]

Only prep i dislike is CG, ironman chores is key part of ironman, ironman prep is ok.

[obsidian venture]

Prep is generally liked in cg

[true talon]

They could remove all raw food from boss tables and make irons go do traweling for hard food or karambwans and that would be ok.

[meager flame]

nah theres a limit to what is like okay or even enjoyable gameplay wise

theres really nothing wrong with food and potions right now but

haemostatic dressing for example is just fucked up

its pretty simple to figure out though when its going wrong

because you can just tell someone has to like for example perpetually kill narwhals in max to even keep planting cotton seeds

or they run into something insane like coconut milk

[compact flicker]

Anything that's a buff on what it currently is I'll take it

[hard axle]

The anti-nyloest weapon of them all

[hard axle]

They will add more sources after 4 more temp game modes

you know this is true

[tender harness]

rare fossils my beloved will they ever get a use

[obsidian venture]

No

People have brought it up multiple times so maybe a chance during rebalance

[ember token]

erm ackshually they do have a use

prayer experience

[obsidian venture]

Prayer in 2026 🗣️

[tender harness]

I still like how they proposed a fix for sailing cape that isnt actually a fix to make it good

[ember token]

all they have to do is remove the dialogue saying to hold onto rare fossils because they might be useful eventually

and if theyre feeling generous they could add a display that uses them to the empty part of the museum

[tender harness]

rag and bone man 4
the fossil collector

[hard axle]

Legit, just fucking give us a xp lamp

They are rarer than a Dark Relic and Dark Relics work out to about 2-3k/hr for select skills in CMs and 4-5k/hr in regular cox

[tender harness]

cowards wont nerf sailors amulet either

[ember token]

theyre buffing it this week

[tender harness]

the amulet? why

its already absurdly broken for how early you get it

[ember token]

red reef quest is coming out this week and I believe [[red rock]] has one of the sailor's mark thingies that you can use with the amulet to unlock another teleport

[ornate wolf]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Red_Rock

[tender harness]

they need to nerf that fucking neck

[ember token]

red rock is right in the center of a whole bunch of islands

and im sure there will probably be something at least slightly useful at red rock itself

[tender harness]

its basically a pseudo parking spot for strykewyrms unless you park directly there

it doesnt replace how useful deepfin is but like

shut up bot. why did they put all this utility into a neck

and not the cape

[true talon]

no they dont

[chrome lantern]

They really do

[tender harness]

???
Takes no time to get
Is one of the best utility necks in the game
Yes they do

[chrome lantern]

It’s absurdly powerful for something with near zero rarity or upkeep and a very very low level unlock

[true talon]

so what? xeric talisman is another one....

[chrome lantern]

And is worse

By a lot

[true talon]

whats so broken about sailor ammulet?

[chrome lantern]

It has a teleport that’s 1 tick further from a bank than the crafting cape and only requires 67 sailing and 20 gp per tele

[true talon]

so what

[tender harness]

Youre power creeping a skill cape with a low effort item

Is what

[restive siren]

it wont ever get nerfed idk why people need to have this discussion weekly. tps will powercreep just as any other thing in this game

[ember token]

it would still be really good if the bank chest wasnt there because it's also right next to charter ships and a furnace

[chrome lantern]

It’s not even the fact that it’s a skillcape specifically but it just is way too easy to get for what it does

[true talon]

again so waht?

[chrome lantern]

Compare it to other stuff like Drakan’s medallion and see how they specifically put it further from a bank

[tender harness]

The utility that it has should be tied to something that makes sense

It doesnt on the neck

The effort required for that much utility is non existant with the neck

[chrome lantern]

The “so what” is that the item has an effect disproportionate to its source, rarity, and cost

It removes design space to make an item unlocked that easily when you could have realistically made something with an actual balance behind it to achieve that effect, and there’s not really a good reason it’s as strong as it is without at least requiring something other than 67 sailing

[true talon]

dont really care its a teleport, get over it

its impact is extremely minor and niche as it should

[true talon]

thats like saying duel rings shouldnt teleport you to banks or a place you can restore your stats?

[chrome lantern]

What

[true talon]

duel rings are vastly more op than any shitty sailing necklace

[chrome lantern]

It’s better than a dueling ring for a bank tele

lmao

[true talon]

by 1 tile?

[chrome lantern]

And by not having 8 charges max

[true talon]

like why do you care so much about quick banking as if it matters?

[chrome lantern]

???

Ok surely you’re trolling/baiting

[tender harness]

It doesnt mention dragon arrows so tass disapproved

[ember token]

see now if the amulet let you get blood shards or dragon arrows faster, then it would be actually good

[true talon]

D arrows are tied to player power at the end game, they are relevent and needs actual sources to grind them like amythst has.
A teleport that saves you 1 tile to a bank is not relevent.

[tender harness]

You have amethyst use them

[true talon]

i do?

Seeker arrows will just make the problem worst, because then you gonna need seeker dragon, seeker amyethst

im actually using my d arrows in chamber scales, because dps is very important

[idle rapids]

Seers village teleport is superior to craft cape and has fairly low reqs

[chrome lantern]

Wha

It’s worse and requires you to be on the standard spellbook

Or make tablets which is even worse

[true talon]

jagex make x and X menus in general are to op, we need to go back to a time 1 click action per to fletch you gotta click the knife on every log and every string on every bow

[hard axle]

reminder that a lot of don't really care about balance, just that stuff gets easier and easier to get

explaining to folks why replacing something 1:1 with lower reqs and even if it's 1-2 tiles better is a brick wall

[true talon]

im all for balance were it matters

but a teleport is not one of them

[hard axle]

yeah, we know u pick and choose

[minor whale]

Seer's tele is superior to craft cape what am I reading

[true talon]

everything cant be balanced

[minor whale]

Also yeah the fact an amulet you get in a couple hours just entirely makes a 99 crafting cape somewhat pointless is super silly

[true talon]

no such thing as perfect balance

[hard axle]

and ur saying even if it can be balanced, let's not do that

[minor whale]

We can try to make things not stupidly balanced

[hard axle]

that's the problem

[minor whale]

Just saying hey it's unbalanced let's leave it is silly

[vernal valve]

seer's village is a nice, lakefront property, crafting guild is a backwater filled with pollution, the choice is obvious smh

[true talon]

what would you change to make it balanced? because its already balanced.

[hard axle]

look, the cow shit has to go somewhere

[hard axle]

tp delay or farther away from bank chest. tping to the actual sailors marker would be more tiles

[minor whale]

Literally just a couple tiles further is fine

[true talon]

so make it more annoying not balanced

[minor whale]

???

[true talon]

it being 1 tile from a bank or 2 does not matter

[minor whale]

Yes, it does
That's how you balance teleport items

[true talon]

guess we need to nerf temple of the eye neck as well

[hard axle]

temple of eye is worse as well

it defeats the purpose to get crafting cape besides maxing and maxing is not a requirement by any means

Like I said, the problem with picking and choosing is that people can call u out on it

[true talon]

who cares crafting cape is useless trash anyways

[hard axle]

who cares dragon arrows is not required for anything

see how this goes?

[minor whale]

"Guess we need to nerf this thing that's balanced by being exactly the type of tile difference we're asking for"

It's fucking 28 tiles away

[hard axle]

at some point, ur opinions need some basis behind it or it's just "whatever i feel like it"

[minor whale]

It's useless trash because shit powecrept it

[true talon]

crying to be crying is all your doing basically over a teleport

[minor whale]

I refuse to believe Tassilo is a real person

[true talon]

"wahh its to op, it moves me 1 tile closer to a bank!!!! jagex i am severally inconvienced and should be moved 5 tiles back not 1!"

[hard axle]

yes and ur crying about dragon arrows in an optional game mode

like, don't die on this hill

[minor whale]

Game balance is when things are easier, always - Tassili

[true talon]

difference is im asking for a method to obtain them, not crying the arrows are op an need to be nerfed

[hard axle]

there's more of an argument to add dragon arrowtips than defend sailor amulet 2 extra tiles away that most people will not notice, but still holds balance

[true talon]

pretty big difference

[minor whale]

Yeah and there's a way to obtain a good close tele item to bank

Get 99 crafting

[hard axle]

not really, u can say that dragon arrows are that rarity because they're strong

and then every arrow below it was only as common because of bad balancing

im gonna be honest with you, LMS should've never given out that many arrows en masse

same for cox, etc.

[tacit wharf]

i mean at a minimum, the teleport should have its rune cost increased, no reason your getting 10 teleports for 1 law

[minor whale]

They threw all semblance of balanced teleports that had existed for years just to give sailing a "please do me for a few minutes to get this item" button

The alternative to crafting cape before this was achievement diary cape which has FAR longer grinds and it was also worse than crafting cape still lmao

[hard axle]

Same reason why I think Shadow using Chaos Runes was so stupid

Same reason why Ayak using Death/Chaos or 1 Demon Tear is so stupid

[minor whale]

I can't believe I've read 2 takes as dumb as "Seer's is just as good" and "Amulet of the Eye tele is just as good" you guys know there's a wiki for this stuff right lmao

[hard axle]

all examples of balance that people similarly dismiss as "it doesn't matter"

and it compounds on each other into future updates

Never getting a single mage weapon that uses Wrath, Blood, Death Runes without also using an absurdly low amount of low tier runes either.

[minor whale]

The teles that are better than crafting cape are balanced by being ridiculously annoying upkeep (HS crystals) or being very rng for irons or expensive per use for mains

[vernal valve]

HS Crystals also can't be equipped, which is not an irrelevant downside

[true talon]

Balanced should be reserved to gear/activities that matter, trying to change bunch of things you deem op like a teleport is beyond silly, its just changing stuff that literally doesn't matter. just makes the game worst as people who had access to the teleport lose its functionality, if the devs think its op you fix it before release.

[hard axle]

they don't remember because a lot of devs are new and even the old ones struggle to remember it

that's why we're here to remind them

[vernal valve]

Something like a bank teleport is an item that singularly impacts more activities than basically any other individual item in the game

[true talon]

faster bank teleport has no impact on anything. besides minor time saves.

you travel 1 tile further congratz

[hard axle]

lmao

[vernal valve]

The whole game is minor time saves.

[meager flame]

so it has no impact on anything except for doing almost everything got it

[vernal valve]

Are you under the illusion Dragon Arrow DPS is functionally anything else?

😭

[nocturne solstice]

I think everything matters, everything is important. OSRS is a game of efficiency and every little thing contributes to the X/hr whether it be xp/hr, gp/hr, or kc/hr.

[hard axle]

**there's a reason why there's no bank chest in POH **

it's not just a "8 tile save"

[tender harness]

Tass has a tbow that he wont use because of dragon arrows

[minor whale]

You just KNOW he's gonna say that dragon arrows also fall into the camp of "pointless annoying grinds"

[meager flame]

nah but really idk its not like the amulet or any of those teleports are that big of a deal these days

[true talon]

its not a game of efficincy its a game

[minor whale]

"Guys dragon arrows are such a tiny time save why can't I have them infinitely"

[true talon]

efficency does not matter

[meager flame]

you can get access to a great bank tele on any account and its been that way for a long time

[hard axle]

💀

[minor whale]

Then why do you care about dragon arrows so much

[nocturne solstice]

Games have themes and this game is about efficiency, factorio is another example of a game of efficiency.

[minor whale]

It's just a game, you don't have to be efficient

[meager flame]

so i wouldn't be too worried about this one

[tender harness]

Factorio reminds me why I like trains

[true talon]

because i am an end game player and i want the best??? the game dont offer me a method to obtain it, so i advocate for a method using my skills?

[nocturne solstice]

Trains are cool

[meager flame]

it was different when there were very few good bank teles and you had to work for them

[minor whale]

Just accept you only care about making things easier on yourself

[meager flame]

but its been a long time since that was the case

[nocturne solstice]

Jagex, dwarf quest update plz, add more trains.

[minor whale]

The game does offer you a method to obtain it via skills. Your skill at completing Colosseum 🙂

[nocturne solstice]

I know its crazy and will never happen but god I wish we had a stupid train trip in OSRS like maplestory had from Ellinia to Orbis

[vernal valve]

idk I think the sailor's amulet is notably better and it's one of those annoying ways the game subtly creeps 'minor' things and eats away at actually interesting but non-obvious progression.

But I do also think it's not thaaaat big a deal overall, and more importantly, there is literally 0 chance it gets nerfed anyway so wcyd

[true talon]

i dont think ever asked for a easy way to get arrows? i asked for a method. you seem to confuse the two that i want them for a personal reason?

[nocturne solstice]

It'll never happen but man, riding a train with the bros and just doing some random shit like those minigames like runedoku and connect 5 that no one plays at bars would be so fun

[vernal valve]

With Sailing in the game Charter Ships should be this now.

[meager flame]

ya im just saying it already got crept to the point that you're just splitting hairs now

when it comes to that amulet

[nocturne solstice]

true true

[meager flame]

would be different if it was like

crafting cape or die

but they got rid of that version of the game a long time ago

[tender harness]

Enough people make noise about the amulet
Surely it gets nerfed

But then reddit will whine

[true talon]

You think i care about d arrows for a personal reason?? lmao

[nocturne solstice]

My thoughts are just like, if its already added to the game then whatever. Just grab it and use it yourself.

[vernal valve]

buddy eat a swordfish or smth ur lookin pale

[nocturne solstice]

But more thought before it gets added would be good

[true talon]

im outside olm lol

[hard axle]

I've said this before, but supplies should be expensive

don't mind if Anglers or Marlins are 30k each

[tender harness]

Double the cost for irons

[hard axle]

I'll just downgrade if too broke

[meager flame]

idk if that really improves the game

like

[true talon]

supplies is extreme expensive for irons lol

[hard axle]

It does if it means other people can profit from the skilling

[narrow folio]

Theyre trying to buff sailing and a nerf would have too much backlash

Correct

[meager flame]

if getting supplies was actually interesting gameplay and something that you might genuinely like doing

it would be different i think

[hard axle]

Like, take a look at Salvaging

[meager flame]

but its like

[hard axle]

how many people actually bank the loot?

Almost none

[tender harness]

Salvaging was a mistake

Hot take

[meager flame]

do i think we should trade bossing and having fun for more afk time getting anglers

no i dont

[true talon]

marlins are cool, i like going an deep sea fishing for 600p/h of raw food

[narrow folio]

Side note I wish haddocks overheal wasnt capped

[vernal valve]

idk i think the 'profit from skilling' thing is semi-problematic with how skilling is fundamentally being designed in the game rn

[narrow folio]

It would still be worse than anglers

But itd have more of a cool niche

What do we think

[tender harness]

Oh was wondering who blocked messages was its plinxy 😭

[bronze kernel]

Still on the camp Sailing would have been better as a minigame

[meager flame]

i think that jagex should try to make skilling something people actually have fun doing

[vernal valve]

A lot of people who want to 'profit from skilling' want to profit from like, cutting Yews. But any activity on that level either fundamentally wouldn't be profitable since it'll get overfarmed or would be based on alch/raw gp and generate way too much gold in the game

[bronze kernel]

And bots

Which will just tank the price more

[vernal valve]

A big issue is that a lot of skilling has extremely lax requirements to effectively farm compared to the inputs needed for PVM

Accessibility is a gigantic profit killer, ultimately

[meager flame]

i think they kind of operate in a weird situation where i dont feel like they genuinly try to make skilling content fun and worth doing for the sake of enjoyment

somehow even though its a video game

thats probably what is really wrong deep down lol

[vernal valve]

Also true, but if they make it fun, that'll make it overfarmed and thus devalued

[bronze kernel]

It's possible if they add enough variety

[ember token]

only real response there is that we wouldn't have gotten anything close to what we did if it was gonna be a minigame - there's no world where we got Sailing on the scale that we did with it not being a skill

[narrow folio]

No haddock enjoyers I see 🙁

[tender harness]

Huh like dungeoneering

[quiet plank]

It's hard cuz a big part of pvm being fun is getting gear upgrades, and with how the game is currently adding gear upgrades for skilling is hard

[vernal valve]

Part of the issue is that "activity people actually want to do a lot" and "activity that makes money" negatively impact each other

[nocturne solstice]

There's so much in sailing rn i dont see how it could possibly be a minigame

[ember token]

a minigame wouldve been some instanced thing where you sail around with less bad version of the controls from bone voyage

[meager flame]

ya i think they need to break out of that mindset entirely like

it doesn't need to maintain peak value if people just enjoy themselves playing

[bronze kernel]

I have drawn those comparisons myself before

[nocturne solstice]

like... what would the minigame even be? Each individual sailing activity is a minigame?

[bronze kernel]

Too much filler content right now

[vernal valve]

I agree with this ye

I think "make skilling profitable" is cooked

Just make skilling fun idk

[tender harness]

Dungeoneering isnt a skill. People want it but its not a skill

[vernal valve]

If it ends making some cash, that's okay

[ember token]

sailing islands = resource dungeons

[meager flame]

like how cool would it be if we went fishing because it was fun and then instead of going to the ge and spending your gp

[vernal valve]

I think they're running into this with trawling

[meager flame]

you just had food to do other fun stuff naturally

because it just happened by having fun playing the video game

[vernal valve]

They want it to be more popular, but want it to maintain value as a moneymaker

but like...

if it becomes more popular, it will inherently lose value as a moneymaker

These goals just aren't aligned

[meager flame]

they do this weird thing that wow also did for a long time where the developer really tries to create this situation where like

[tender harness]

You cant
Look at fishing
Low exp high profit i.e. sharks
Gets botted into the ground
And high exp ends up being like 50k an hour

[meager flame]

you have to do chores before you're allowed to have fun

[quiet plank]

They can make fun skilling items and add rare powerful drops to them. It'd be just like pvm, it could maintain value

[meager flame]

and it can work to some extent to extend playtime

[bronze kernel]

My biggest issue with most of the Sailing islands is they are nothing more than filler content with nothing on them

Isle of Bones sounds like it would be a cool place

[tender harness]

Fundamentally skilling for profit is cooked until they figure it out

[bronze kernel]

But naaaaah

[meager flame]

but ultimately its also what eventually burns people out of games

when it keeps adding up

[ember token]

yeah none of the islands are very interesting

[bronze kernel]

5 low level skeletons and a weather troll

[vernal valve]

ye a lot of the food drop table nerfs kinda made me roll my eyes pretty hard for this reason

shark lure my beloathed

[bronze kernel]

That's what pissed me off about the islands

They are almost non-content

[vernal valve]

like yeah man that's why fishing sharks was bad, bc of zulrah drops 😭

[nocturne solstice]

Methinks the design philosophy for most of the islands are like, sightseeing and not content.

Just so the ocean wont feel empty

[bronze kernel]

And even those with some content is "Why would you ever bother to sail here for this"

[ember token]

I remember back when sailing launched, seeing that they added all the models for all the summoning creatures into the game files, and knowing that there's an island called Minotaur's Rest with a dungeon on it

[meager flame]

i dont even think there was design intent behind most islands besides like

[vernal valve]

yeah that seems pretty clear

[meager flame]

man theres nothing but blue tiles out here

[bronze kernel]

It's like they specifically made the skill for Snowflake Ironman

[nocturne solstice]

I'm not too concerned with every single island on launch having a designated purpose and being BiS at content

[vernal valve]

i mean they were never going to fill all the release oceans with Real Content before release

[tender harness]

Which seems like a double edged approach

[vernal valve]

it just wasn't gonna happen

[ember token]

and I was thinking wow I bet they'll use the summoning minotaurs as higher level minotaurs you can kill for drops

[meager flame]

i think they were just working to meet a deadline at any cost when i think about sailing as a whole

[nocturne solstice]

I kinda agree but also its like, they can just add stuff later so it doesnt matter. There's that prison island a bit SW of the tempo barracuda trials that does nothing rn.

Future quest probably, people just impatient.

[ember token]

later I unlock the island and travel there for the first time to find that there's a cave that's empty except for a few non-interactable colosseum minotaurs

[ember token]

[[rocking out]]

[ornate wolf]

Wiki links found:
https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Rocking_Out

[nocturne solstice]

[bronze kernel]

The Onyx Crest and the whatever island full of Krakens at the mooring point

[meager flame]

its kinda crazy too because now they're in community limbo where the idea of "well just flesh it out later" is not working too great

[bronze kernel]

Feel those could be involved in the pirate quest or something adjacent

[meager flame]

they suggest stuff and everyone revolts and they're like yeah maybe we wont do content like that

[tender harness]

Barracuda trial being delayed by a year 😭

[meager flame]

and now they're just not really getting anything done

[ember token]

to be fair we dont really need another barracuda trial right now

[meager flame]

yeah i mean who even needs to do laps somewhere else

[nocturne solstice]

I think its just not working out because you got multiple groups all demanding different things.
Sailing sucks! Okay we'll update it
WTF half a year and only content we get is sailing? Okay we'll do blood moon
WTF only one quest? where's PVP content? Okay we'll work on that
WTF where is late game content?

[meager flame]

we need actual interesting things to do and for me sailing on my boat to have a point

[nocturne solstice]

It's just neverending

[meager flame]

and honestly

[tender harness]

I mean the 72 - 99 sailing is literally
Gwen or salvage
The 90 - 99 bracket of sailing has nothing

[meager flame]

they should've made the point already

[narrow folio]

Making the next trial worth doing would be such a significant xp jump I don't know if they can do it. They closed off the design space so much with glide.

[nocturne solstice]

You also get a lot of dishonesty where people say
"Why hasn't X gotten any updates?"
"Okay but that doesn't count, I don't count that"

[meager flame]

because they're now trapped in a situation where varying factions of players have different ideas of what it could be or should be

[vernal valve]

Port tasks are gonna be weird after the buffs too, tbh

[meager flame]

and its because jagex basically stepped back and didn't really go for it

[tender harness]

I have waking nightmares from how bad Gwen was but like high end sailing leveling needs something that isnt Gwen

[narrow folio]

At this point you cant please everyone

[meager flame]

they had the chance when designing the entire thing

[nocturne solstice]

true, but more viable

[vernal valve]

top end they're gonna be tickling Glide rates while also having actual rewards and also being piss easy

[meager flame]

and opted out

[nocturne solstice]

i wasnt sure if I was gunna vote yes or not on that one, feels weird but I can see it being a good change

[tender harness]

Casually power creep glide with brain off tasks 😭

[vernal valve]

my scorching hot take is that they're already very viable, if anything, slightly overtuned. They aren't popular for a ton of reasons that aren't exclusively how good they are

[meager flame]

honestly port tasks are probably more investment to do optimally than glide is

[narrow folio]

I just wanted some cool uniques and maybe raw gp or something

The xp was already fine

[tender harness]

We dont need more slayer tasks being meta for skilling

Shit is boring

[meager flame]

its pretty easy to go in the same circle repeatedly rather than be present enough to actually think about where you're going next

[nocturne solstice]

I thought they were pretty viable for XP too but the loot was ass

[narrow folio]

Theres basically no loot

Good pet rate too

[meager flame]

pretty sure sweaty port tasks are going to be a lot harder to pull off than the glide exp rates

once people really get into it

[vernal valve]

i mean yeah but glide isn't exactly giving out loot either

[vernal valve]

idk port tasks were just super easy

[nocturne solstice]

yeah so that puts it in a weird spot to me. If you want afk you go salvage, for intense best xp go barracuda, so it was in a weird spot to do port tasks

[vernal valve]

they just have upfront learning but they're really not hard at all

[meager flame]

they're easy to do but hard to do perfectly

in both scenarios you're trying to essentially be tick perfect

but only one of them has you think

[nocturne solstice]

i really really like the port task update to bounties though

[vernal valve]

I just don't agree they're anywhere near as 'hard' to do for high end rates as trials are, they're just asking for a different skill set

[nocturne solstice]

so you can always get a task for specific mobs at specific docks

[vernal valve]

This is, to some extent, one of the issues, yeah. Port tasks I think are pretty easy, but doing them optimally basically requires understanding them and actually looking up a guide or two, since the optimal methods are entirely opaque to the average player. And the type of person to do that is also the type of person likely to do other high investment methods like trials.

I also think the game straight up trains players to think of port tasks as shitty low level chores, tbh

The way it's introduced as your training method super early on actually kind of negatively biases the average player against them

It feels less like the game introducing you to a primary training method and more like being given the bad chore method you have to do before you're allowed to do the "fun" parts of the skill, even though the devs intend port tasks to be like, a 'main' training method

[meager flame]

i think the biggest reason for that is the reward structure

they teach you that doing it takes awhile and then the game gives you 200gp and you're like

okay fuck me i guess

[tender harness]

Port tasks are not the same intensity as trials
And shouldn't be touching the same rates as trials

[vernal valve]

ye absolutely. I also think the flavor just fucking sucks too

Like.

You're just delivering stuff.

You're a literal delivery boy.

It's not exactly gripping from like, a fantasy perspective for most people.

Unless you like Eve Online, the idea probably just feels like a chore.

[meager flame]

i just dont even really know how they got to where they are with it

[tender harness]

Port tasks are bis pet rate tho

[vernal valve]

Delievering stuff for pennies at a time, especially when you're 'forced' to do it at low level when the rates are hilariously low makes it feel horrendeous

[meager flame]

because if you had never done sailing and you looked at like the entire design of sailing

[vernal valve]

And that terrible first impression never really leaves.

[tender harness]

You literally get the best pet rate from Port tasks which is the trade off

[meager flame]

you would probably heavily gravitate towards making port tasks reward you with the things you're delivering on some level

like

[vernal valve]

ehhhhh

[meager flame]

you'd just think you would be getting cannonballs nails planks etc

[vernal valve]

optimal port tasks aren't thaaaat crazy for pet

optimal pet grinding is terrible xp/hr

[meager flame]

you probably wouldn't think of it as like a top end exp method

[vernal valve]

bc you're just going back and forth between 2 super close ports

[meager flame]

but it fits into the game really well as something to generate an assortment of helpful loot

kind of like hunter rumor sacks

[vernal valve]

I also don't genuinely think port tasks were balanced around soup rate anyway tbh

[meager flame]

or seed rewards from doing contracts is another good example

its basically that type of design all the way through and then they got to the point to implement it

and gave you some gp

and buffed xp

idk how lol

[vernal valve]

yeah I agree that design makes the most sense

it also better places it at a midpoint

more loot/exp than salvage, more effort, but still a good amount away from trials

now it's gonna be basically trials rates but with loot

idk

[tender harness]

They actually are though lol

[vernal valve]

I mean, optimal port tasks for exp aren't that crazy for pet. Yeah, optimizing port tasks for pet is by far the best way to get it.

[meager flame]

i think maybe they just didn't have a good perspective on how skills and items work in the overall scheme of an account long term

which is weird because i know at least one of them plays an iron and should get it

where i could forgive someone that plays a main and is maybe a more modern rs player for not entirely getting how it all comes together

but basically everything thats designed well in the game is a huge interconnected web of drops and rewards and direct sources

that you come into contact with naturally by just playing through the game

[vernal valve]

I do genuinely wonder what their internal assessment was of port tasks was before release tbh

[meager flame]

and sailing economically suffers heavily because its mega incomplete in that regard

so if you just play the game normally theres a good chance you just like

never or almost never come across a lot of items

and you have to stop and go directly do something kind of weird that you wouldn't naturally like to be doing

[bronze kernel]

Biggest hurdle though is 1-30 Sailing

[nocturne solstice]

im sure that'll be solved in time 😅

[bronze kernel]

Since it's probably the worst part

[tacit wharf]

1-30 is easy

[bronze kernel]

Port tasks are genuinely not rewarding at all.

[ember token]

1-30 was always easy and then they buffed it to make it even quicker

[bronze kernel]

That is unless you skip it by spamming charting

[vernal valve]

I think 1-30 is absolutely miserable but it really isn't that bad after being buffed so hard tbh

[ember token]

lot of players just werent used to training a skill from level 1

[bronze kernel]

And to be honest, a port tasks suck.

[vernal valve]

idk man i don't agree i think it's just boring

[tacit wharf]

i mean, what people expect, no1 had a dem idea wtf they were doing

[bronze kernel]

Until you unlock the Western Ocean

[ember token]

taking a few hours to get 30 levels was somehow unbearable

[tender harness]

Not anymore

[chrome lantern]

1-30 wasn't even a problem on release, I just charted before it even got buffed

[ember token]

it's the least boring out of all the skills that dont have a quest that skip all the early levels

[tender harness]

The most boring part of sailing is still 72-99

[meager flame]

i dont even know what i did i was just blasting through levels and trying to click on the nearest thing to me that gave me exp

[vernal valve]

This I just fundamenetally disagree with, lol

[meager flame]

i mean im sure it was port tasks and charting but like

[bronze kernel]

I'm probably one of the few people who doesn't mind higher level port tasks

[meager flame]

it was over pretty quick

[bronze kernel]

And prefer it over Trials

[tender harness]

I didnt mind trials if they weren't buggy as sin

But they were broken half the time

[meager flame]

tbh the worst part of sailing to me outside of the very start when your boat is just too slow to be fun

[tender harness]

And soured me on sailing

[ember token]

idk how you can think early sailing is boring when the alternative which applies to most other skills is dealing with super annoying low success rates

[meager flame]

was probably when i hit the highest level salvage as a possibility and i'd already been doing trials to get to that level

and i basically had to decide if i wanted dragon cannons or to do the same laps i'd already been doing

thats when the skill just falls apart imo

thats also the only reason i think a new trial is halfway reasonable if they had included a reason to do sailing i'd be all for it

just because more variety would be good

[vernal valve]

I don't think it's as bad now, but on release, charting exp felt pretty abysmal (was bugged + buffed pretty massively like day 2), and low level port tasks are just entirely unenjoyable imo. I really just don't have much issue with the 'most other skills' you're talking about?

[bronze kernel]

Another big issue is also how ludicrously expensive a sloop is to upgrade. They want to encourage multiple boats but the cost is quite prohibitive and unappealing for that

[meager flame]

but since they filled out no sailing reward space and made no islands worth talking about

they should probably work on that instead

[bronze kernel]

That's like saying you must pay for multiple houses for different rooms

[vernal valve]

Like low success rate on gatherers and firemaking like... whatever? It just isn't irritating to me in the same way early Sailing was, and never has been, tbh

[narrow folio]

The effort to reward ratio for xp wasnt there and I ended up doing salvaging asap and stayed there

[meager flame]

the craziest thing about sailing is that i can remember the day skills like hunter farming or con released more clearly than the day sailing came out

[vernal valve]

Pickpocketing sucks bad ig but even that feels pretty fast

[ember token]

yeah idk what to tell you if 30 levels in 2 hours is abysmal xp rates and repeatedly failing early actions in other skills is fun to you, it sounds more like you just dont like Sailing at all which fair enough

[meager flame]

i think it might be because sailing had such information overload for like years leading up to it

that it felt old before it was new

[vernal valve]

I genuinely don't even see what early action fails in other skills I'd be bothered by, like, I honestly don't understand what you're referring to that I even would care about 😭

[narrow folio]

Dudes making things up loo

[vernal valve]

Literally the only thing I can think of is like, early hunter is annoying, but not specifically bc of fail rates. Thieving pickpocketing too, which I mentioned?

Firemaking failing to light a log like 7 times is hilarious but whatever

idk man

[ember token]

pickpocketing, taking ages to chop a single log or mine a rock or catch a fish, failing to light a log, etc

[meager flame]

the biggest thing about those examples though outside of thieving

is that you kinda get over that by the time you're level 10

[vernal valve]

^

Logs/Fish catching are kind of close your eyes content too

[narrow folio]

Early sailings just boring and slow

[ember token]

idk i just dont see how thats fun but early sailing, exploring and charting and doing port tasks on the way for 2 hours is boring

[meager flame]

like the first few logs can be painful but thats like 5 minutes of your life being really generous

[bronze kernel]

You know, anyone feel like we should outright retire moving fishing spots?

[meager flame]

tbh i think the worst part about the start of sailing is the speed

[vernal valve]

Idk how else to convey this without writing 5 paragraphs about my specific experience, but effectively, none of that really felt rewarding

[meager flame]

i bet if i could go into the future they will have changed that

[vernal valve]

Most of the things I did immediately felt like 'oh this sucks' as opposed to anything else

[meager flame]

or you'll just like

do a quest to hit 45 sailing or something

and never see it

[vernal valve]

Click on some things to chart? Oh, like 15 exp drop. This kinda sucks.

Do the port task? Oh, that was it? That kinda sucked.

Try exploring? Oh, the Tempor water hurts me. Okay.

[narrow folio]

100% there will be early sailing quest to skip lvls later

If sailing doesnt get abandoned

[jagged marsh]

idk I'm doing port tasks and getting like 11k xp drops, feels good

[vernal valve]

Something something 'skill issue' or whatever, but most things I tried felt like I was doing something 'wrong', without any obvious feedback about what the 'right' thing was.

[ember token]

there already IS early sailing quests to skip levels

[narrow folio]

And people are going to talk about how great it is because no one liked early sailing anyway

[ember token]

i almost forgot lol

[meager flame]

i just dont know how they decided the baseline for moving a ship should be watching paint dry lmao

[narrow folio]

Not to the extent other skills have (yet)

[vernal valve]

yeah and base ship is just a tad too slow

[meager flame]

especially after going through years and years of feedback telling them early agility and thus run energy were trash

[vernal valve]

yeah i said earlier i actually think high level port tasks are arguably overtuned, and they're about to get giga buffed, lol

[narrow folio]

But theyre unpopular

[vernal valve]

Correct

I think there's a lot of reasons they're unpopular that isn't just them being bad

I think they have design issues

But wcyd

[narrow folio]

Its an overwhelming learning curve thats what put me off

[vernal valve]

Yeah, that's a big one, I agree

[ember token]

my issue is that they put all the uniques behind salvaging and it took me way past 99 sailing to even get them all in the first place, so I ended up mostly salvaging to 99 simply because of the lack of incentive to do the other activities

[meager flame]

yup

[vernal valve]

yeah salvaging is a HUUUUGE issue

[meager flame]

i sat there getting cannons from the lowest level you could until post 99

[vernal valve]

I have no idea what they thought they were cooking there

[winged mantle]

Coughboat paints

[meager flame]

the funniest thing about sailing is now that its out and theres like the biggest content gap ever to fill

they should basically put absolutely everything new and interesting on an island

lmao

for awhile

just so it seems normal and actually something intended to be in the game

they should also probably rework a bunch of drop tables to include random sailing stuff

[ember token]

if they didnt launch salvaging overtuned and then try to change it too late (and ultimately do a 180 and BUFF salvaging further) then maybe i would've ended up finishing salvaging before like, 20m sailing xp or however extraordinary long it took me

ive done the bare minimum of trials and the bare minimum of port tasks

[meager flame]

even little weird stuff like

seed packs should give you the seeds that released with sailing

[ember token]

i have done a fair amount of trawling and i like it

[meager flame]

pretty much all sailing stuff right now is weirdly kind of cut off from the rest of the game

[vernal valve]

it was sort of hilarious when even pre-release a jmod was like "yeah salvaging might be overtuned, lol"