game-update

[true talon]

Chambers, nuff said

[hard axle]

If I told you to solo freeze all crabs and they guaranteed to spawn, you would leak 2 crabs every set.

[obsidian venture]

Chambers was made for teams

[minor whale]

You can solo ToB right now but it doesn't scale to solo.
Raids 4 has been confirmed as scaling down to only 2 and solo being possible but exceedingly difficult
CoX was never designed to be soloable but was figured out naturally and requires a lot more effort than teams
The only black sheep in raids is ToA being a bastardized abomination where they just flatly remove mechanics or make them easier for baby's only solo raid

[true talon]

Correct but it is soloable

[obsidian venture]

Tob is also soloable

What’s your point?

[hard axle]

Yes, tob is soloable and yet ur still scapegoating

[minor whale]

Designing something for teams and it happens to be soloable is far better than designing it to be soloable.

[hard axle]

You can soulreaper bash it and maybe even nhally

[true talon]

Really now, how many TOB players solo TOB compared to chambers players?

[obsidian venture]

It works well in solo because it scales the encounter. Notice how it was specifically made for teams first

[old shadow]

Raids shouldn’t be designed for solos at all i have no idea why this is a point of contention

It is group content and designed to be difficult group content

Toa is shit content that should’ve never been released

[minor whale]

Ironman hates having to find other people in the MMO game

[hard axle]

See, now ur arguing for the solo to be easier

[true talon]

no im not?

[old shadow]

Tob IS soloable and has been done before. There are people that regularly solo tob

[hard axle]

and that’s where we disagree

[frozen lion]

Then make good finding system of people in game. You can be in clan with cool people who don';t actually raid and you may want to raid.

[obsidian venture]

So encourage them to raid

[old shadow]

So what are you asking for

Tassili

[obsidian venture]

Communication

[minor whale]

There's worlds for finding teams that people are in loads

You have to step out of your comfort zone and try to get a team

Can't just hope some high kcs will carry you

[old shadow]

For tob or the new raid to be more accessible for solo players?

The only way to do that would be to make it easier to solo

[obsidian venture]

Bro there’s literal twitch e-girls soloing tob and they are ass at most content 😭

[minor whale]

There are loads of community discords for raids and finding teams

[old shadow]

And that’s lame

[obsidian venture]

Watching grandmas do solo tob

(They click slow but still clear)

[old shadow]

Ngl should i start sending 1 def solos

[obsidian venture]

You can

[frozen lion]

I feel like this is the reason dating is almost dead now irl. At least that type of thinking. Times change so do people's behavior.

[old shadow]

What the hell does dating have to do with anything

[minor whale]

Thank God this isn't really a discussion we need to have, JMods have repeatedly and for years now said they don't intend to change ToB to have a solo mode and they once again have confirmed they haven't changed their minds on this

[obsidian venture]

😭😭😭

[frozen lion]

Pattern

[obsidian venture]

Shoutout to goblin

[minor whale]

I met my wife irl by introducing myself to her and then dating irl and then getting married irl
Much like finding a ToB team I didn't complain about how hard it was to find someone and ask for the government to make a girlfriend finder 😭

[frozen lion]

https://tenor.com/view/b-boomer-boomer-bttv-twitch-classic-rock-gif-15991791

[old shadow]

I met my partner on tinder in like 20 minutes of using it

But im also hot look at me

[minor whale]

And a doctor!

[obsidian venture]

So true

[old shadow]

Yeah but im shit at that part so it doesnt count

[true talon]

Lets paint this out for you. What happens when you encouter this situation?

Raids 1 - jump in anytime, learn have fun solo, raid on your own time, waste no time looking for people, have the option to send with people for additional points/scaling, has the ability to scale in a 1+6 if your good enough.

Raids 2 - wait in lobbies, scout discords, find team members, raid on other peoples time, forced to find people to even do the content, has no benefit to scaling as the rewards are static, has very low ceiling in terms of doing the content as the only thing you can improve on is doing it faster.

Raids 3 - custom scaling, can make it easier by finding others, can push yourself to the absolute limit to be rewarded (this should be improved on tbh, they kinda killed it with the unique rate nerfs and no introduction of new invocations)

Which raid is better?

[obsidian venture]

But either way just learn to use words and ask for a team

[frozen lion]

Why people even care about raid being able to be soloable?

No one force you to solo it.

[old shadow]

That’s just called framing bias

[minor whale]

Lmao if I make everything in raid 1 good and everything in raid 2 bad, then say "hey what is good and bad" I can make everything look like this stupid ass analogy lmaoooooooo

[frozen lion]

You can always enjoy raids with groups.

[hard axle]

He’s so biased and yappy it’s unreal

[old shadow]

“Which sounds better?” “This SICK option or this BAD option?”

[hard axle]

I can literally write a dissertation on why toa is complete dogwater

[true talon]

so tell me what did i get wrong about tob? can you name it?

[obsidian venture]

@austere mulch sorry brozzer

[hard axle]

toa literally has close to NO benefit being in team because HP scales 90% and then 60%

So it’s technically better for 8 people to solo over teams

we do this in bingos

[true talon]

i didnt say the scaling or invocations was good, i said it had more freedom and customization.

[old shadow]

Toa is like

The shittiest raid and most unhealthy raid to be released

[true talon]

the issue with TOA is they didnt go in an add more modifers or adjust mechanics.......

[hard axle]

Bitch, you literally said this as a con for tob

[obsidian venture]

“Customization” barely

[old shadow]

And should’ve honestly been deleted like a week into release

[obsidian venture]

You either add stuff to grief your time or you don’t

Gz toa invos

[hard axle]

and I’m reflecting it onto toa

God, ur dense

[true talon]

TOA is done badly, but the system would have been good if properly done.

[old shadow]

I don’t think so

[obsidian venture]

Too many ifs

[hard axle]

If, if, if

[old shadow]

Toa is bad from the rewards and design

[obsidian venture]

If means nothing

As it’s not a thing currently

[hard axle]

Fucking Megumi Fushiguro potentialman of raids ngl

[true talon]

What TOA has some of the best rewards of any raid......

[old shadow]

Also, yes, if doesn’t mean anything

[frozen lion]

Group raid andys would to tob solo if it got actually a scaling for solo, if it was even slightly more efficient. Showing no care for group system but efficiency.

[hard axle]

rewards are not the raid itself my guy

[obsidian venture]

Rewards are good but poorly placed

[true talon]

Lucy said that TOA is bad from rewards and design

[hard axle]

If you were offered $1B for eating a pile of shit, you would

[old shadow]

They’re bad as in they hamstring a fuck ton of content

Fang shut down melee design space for like

Years post release

Shadow was busted up until ayak

And not only that

Toa shits them out

There’s like 5x more shadows than scythe and t bows combined

[frozen lion]

Imagine if they added solo scalign for TOB but group TOB would remain same. Improvement for a lot of people, no change for them if they don't want to do solo raids. But have to cry like girls about it anyway.

[old shadow]

I believe it’s more now

[true talon]

i mean 1b in real life yea, in game no lol

[minor whale]

Lmfao

Ok what's better

Raid 1 - Mechanics are removed if you're soloing because the game has to hold your hand in case it's too hard. It is the longest raid by far and the most boring raid by a mile. Team synchronization doesn't exist and there's no roles and every run is identical.

Raid 2 - You have to be good at all mechanics because the raid doesn't hold your hand. The raid is the fastest of all raids and teams are encouraged to do content together by having a robust role system that encourages coordination.

Oh also raid 1 kills your dog if you play it and raid 2 gives you 8 million dollars if you complete it in under 1 year

Which raid is better? Guys I didn't do any sort of biased framing at all please just don't dissect anything I say

[obsidian venture]

Oh ok

[old shadow]

I simply disagree with raids should be designed to be solo

Raids are designed to be difficult group content

I don’t care if you’re iron and have a hard time finding a group

Just find a clan that is willing to run with you and that’s it

[minor whale]

We don't even have to really argue
JMods also think ToB is in a good spot
And they've inferred they're making raids 4 much closer to ToB, even saying it'll be the hardest raid so far and won't scale to solo

[hard axle]

I legitimately padded the fuck out of the rewards just to make up for the fact the rewards are shit. A worse version of what Yama did imo.

[frozen lion]

Yeah classic andys. Change that doesnt; have to affectt them in slightest but need to oppose it anyway.

[old shadow]

Yeah yama is shit too

[obsidian venture]

Piss boss

[old shadow]

People in osrs don’t really think about the consequences of rewards, just how good the rewards are for their account

Irons drool at the thought of oathplate drop rates

[true talon]

False, the only simularity is boss rush style, they never said it wouldnt be soloable.

[old shadow]

Oathplate should not have been that common

[obsidian venture]

They should have made Yama drops rarer, nex drops better tbf

[minor whale]

They said verbatim it won't scale to solo.

[obsidian venture]

Just in terms of balance

[hard axle]

Congrats, you just found out why rewards to pad a very boring piece of content doesn’t mean the content is good, which is ironic given how much you complained about Nex 😭

[minor whale]

ToB also isn't "not" soloable

[old shadow]

Toa weapons are fucking busted and pretty common to receive

Irons fucking love that

They don’t think how badly those weapons are designed in the long term

[obsidian venture]

They also made it Billybobs friendly

[old shadow]

They just think

[obsidian venture]

And screwed high invos

[old shadow]

“What? ToA drops are good.”

[true talon]

tob minimum scale is also 3 and none of the mechanics are adjusted correctly only stats.

[old shadow]

Good

[obsidian venture]

That’s how it should be

[old shadow]

Why should group content scale to solo?

[true talon]

and the only issue with TOB is just nylo and maiden

[obsidian venture]

Hence why it’s more of a “flex” kc compared to other raids

[minor whale]

Yeah that's a good thing.
Mechanics also shouldn't scale to solo players just because you can't be bothered to find someone else to raid with you

[frozen lion]

Because it doesn't neccessarily have to be group content.

[obsidian venture]

Nylos is skill issue

Maiden is actual just skill issue

[hard axle]

If it even was soloable, it needs to be harder, slower, less uniques per hour by at least 50%.

That’s the bare minimum to encourage teams like ToB did because solo raids are 45 minutes and harder, but duos are sub 25 every time.

[old shadow]

That’s the thing

[obsidian venture]

Freeze crabs and hit boss

Don’t get drained

[old shadow]

Raids WAS designed to be group content

[obsidian venture]

Like what else do you need

[old shadow]

Hell raids is considered group content in like

Every other mmo

[obsidian venture]

Do folks do destiny raids solo

[old shadow]

Just because some mmo are light and let people solo them doesn’t mean it’s good game design

[obsidian venture]

Or ff raids solo

[old shadow]

They’re designed to be difficult group content

[hard axle]

I’m glad you brought this up because in other MMOs, being able to solo raids was often a sign of skill.

[minor whale]

No, you don't understand, the irons want it to be easier to do and faster to complete solo or else it's punishing people for not having friends :(((

[old shadow]

In osrs? They are designed to be difficult group content

[hard axle]

It often involved cheese Strats and heal Strats to clear

I remember heal builds in 2010 MMOs lmao

legit 50% dps loss

[old shadow]

Why should raids scale to solo play when they are designed to be group content

[hard axle]

But you just had to kite the boss and heal

[true talon]

wrong, those mmo's use a holy trinity combat system. if your able to solo the raid then you are out gearing it.

[old shadow]

There’s no need to cater to solo players

[minor whale]

Pretty much every raid in every game with raids is never intended to be soloable

[old shadow]

^

[frozen lion]

Why do you even complain about raid being soloable when you can actually never go and do it solo? How does the option to solo it affect you at all?

[old shadow]

But also - every single raid in this game has been soloed

[hard axle]

Who are you to tell me what it is when I literally could solo on an non-overleveled acc

It was a mix of kiting, healing, and cc

[minor whale]

You can right now go solo ToB
It's entirely possible
You're asking for it to be made easier to solo.

[true talon]

theres no need to cater to group players actually, solo players are majority of this game......... catering to the 5% who group all day compared to the 95% who play on their own is a bad business model.

[old shadow]

?

[minor whale]

Guess Jagex devs are catering to us then lmao

[old shadow]

Less than 1% of content in this game is done in groups

[true talon]

You shouldnt cater to either, but you should design all content to be accessible by all.

[old shadow]

And that’s catering to them?

[hard axle]

we throwing out random numbers now?

[frozen lion]

Yep, they bark a lot but are actually vast minority.

[minor whale]

LOL

[old shadow]

That’s not what catering means in this context

[frozen lion]

Poll would show how big minority they are.

Easily.

[hard axle]

The problem is that it’s rarely balanced. Cox is one of the only team vs solo content that is actually balanced and people bitched endlessly about cox not being more rewarding.

[old shadow]

Catering would be to make a raid lenient for solo players when it is designed for groups to have a difficult time clearing

That’s catering

That’s what ToA did

Catering is not just

[obsidian venture]

You don’t have any numbers

There’s literally thousands of groups raids happening every day

[old shadow]

Making solo players have a hard time clearing group content lol

[obsidian venture]

What minority

[old shadow]

It’s not designed for them

[true talon]

did you not look at the TOA uniques produced by solo compared to groups?

[frozen lion]

I'm up for a global game poll PepeLaugh TeaTime

[obsidian venture]

Is toa the only raid or

[minor whale]

Solo ToA is just dumb as shit because they made it easier than group mechanics by outright removing several things

[frozen lion]

You wouldn't like the results.

[minor whale]

No shit ToA has a lot of soloers

[obsidian venture]

Toa is a solo based raid so yes you will have more purples in solos

[old shadow]

Of course a global game poll wouldn’t pass

[true talon]

what? TOA is piss easy in a group, why do you think people run 8 man's........

[old shadow]

People in this game only vote for what’s easier for them lmao

Pvp poll?

Spite vote no

[minor whale]

You make the raid easier and faster to get purples for solo players and 😲 the raid is done often in solos!

[old shadow]

Make raids easier? Overwhelming yes

[obsidian venture]

No way!

[minor whale]

What mechanics get removed in team ToA compared to solo btw?

[old shadow]

I don’t see why this is an argument

[minor whale]

The dreaded Akkha purple attack that only occurs in solos and never in Teams
Oh wait I got that mixed up sorry

[frozen lion]

Why not just make it the way it isn't really easier but actually mechanics aren't requiring to use all game bugs in the book?

[old shadow]

What do you want from raids for tassili? For it to be designed as group content that scales to solo?

[obsidian venture]

What game bugs are used?

[true talon]

the only one extra is you have to stack/split the ball and extra ahhka mechanics

[frozen lion]

Even tick eating is actually a bug.

[true talon]

yes

[old shadow]

Do you main an iron

[frozen lion]

Which is allowed to be used.

Same as prayer flicking.

[true talon]

yes, but ive been both.

[old shadow]

Yeah nvm

It tracks

[minor whale]

Hahahaha now we're calling prayer flicking and tick eating bugs

[true talon]

I dont like sitting around waiting to raid. i like to go in and send...

[minor whale]

Entirely unserious argument

[frozen lion]

They literally are?

[old shadow]

That’s awesome

Go send tob

It’s been soloed before

[true talon]

They are LMFAO

[minor whale]

When JMods design content for it it's not a bug

[obsidian venture]

No

[frozen lion]

They didn't

[obsidian venture]

They aren’t lmao

[frozen lion]

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Glitch

[true talon]

no reason, i suffered the 416/wdr

[frozen lion]

Literally have a read.

Instead of typing baseless stuff.

[old shadow]

I think this is unironically

A skill issue

Like this entire argument

[frozen lion]

Can't claim being wrong, have to gaslight

[true talon]

Tick eating, prayer flicking, clearing death ques, pretty much anything you see at the highest level of play is all bugs...... they are just acceptable ones.

[old shadow]

?

[minor whale]

Something that was a bug but is now endorsed by Jagex and requires for some content is no longer a bug

[old shadow]

Because I’m not wrong

[frozen lion]

Says you?

Lol

[old shadow]

Are raids designed to be group content?
Yes

Do I think content designed to be complete in groups should be soloable?
No

[ashen yarrow]

there is no content where jagex is making tick eating a core mechanic

[old shadow]

Isn’t there a tick eat CA

@obsidian venture

[true talon]

Actually its bugs that have been intergrated into parts of the skill of the game....... because they ignored it for to long and it has been apart of vast parts of the game.

[obsidian venture]

Yes

[ashen yarrow]

oh which ca can only be completed by tick eating?

[grand hawk]

Why is this a 4 step process?
Linen + silk
Canvas + silk
Cotton + silk
Gem bag + everything else
Can we not just put the mole skin with the gem bag??

[obsidian venture]

Ok one second… do you think prayer flicking falls under tick manipulation? The answer here will lmk about you @frozen lion

[old shadow]

Because it is designed to be progressive? Lmao

If you do not have gem bag

[obsidian venture]

The tob sote one

[old shadow]

You can have gem pouch

[frozen lion]

No, because you can use the earlier parts without having gem bag.

It is catered also for fresh players.

[old shadow]

You can also improve this gem pouch, based on crafting levels

[minor whale]

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/A_Timely_Snack

[old shadow]

Then, at high crafting, after doing several hours of MLM and farming giant mole, you can have a gem sack

[grand hawk]

Just get the gem bag it takes 2 hours?

[old shadow]

And?

It’s designed for newer players

To progress

[grand hawk]

Its over engineered as fuck

[old shadow]

Do you think everything in this game is designed for endgame players that already have the items?

[minor whale]

Requires tick eating, endorsed by Jagex. A bug that becomes a core mechanic is no longer a bug, it's a mechanic.

[true talon]

If runescape was released today those mechanics would be discovered and quickly patched.

Dev 1 - btw i found that players can turn off the prayer to gain benefit and prevent prayer drain making our systems of prayer sustain though prayer pots an restores invalid.

Dev 2 - btw i found players can negate all incoming damage that is over their current hp if they click the food the tick the attack is registered to have done damage and invalidating our restriction of food healing and inventory management.

These would be considered very serious exploits and would be fixed pre-release.

[grand hawk]

Brother gem bag is not end game lmao

[old shadow]

Yeah but the thought process is

That’s also not what i’m saying

Lmao

[grand hawk]

?? No its not what

[obsidian venture]

It’s fully accepted and integrated into the game

[old shadow]

It’s progressive

New players can have a gem pouch or whatever

As they build towards gem sack

[obsidian venture]

It’s also very useless

[old shadow]

Yea it’s ass

[obsidian venture]

Unless you wanna min max salvage gems

[old shadow]

I still got mine though

[austere mulch]

If the conversation is on being able to solo tob, solo tob is EXTREMELY accessible these days compared to past

You don’t even need to tickeat p2 anymore at all

[true talon]

Runescape is a rare game in which incompetence managed to produce a insane outcome of skill expression and fun.

[old shadow]

I mean yeah that’s true

[minor whale]

Sorry but until Tass and Malu can do it themselves it's not easy enough

[old shadow]

But it’s now integrated into the game

And it’s good

It adds mechanics

And if this game was as simple as switch players and click, as it was in 2007

Wouldn’t that be boring?

[true talon]

I dont waste my time with it, i can just go to WDR or 416 if i wanna tob. solo has no benefit the purple rate doesnt scale.

[old shadow]

I’ll bond you for 3 years if you solo tob within this weekend on stream tass

[obsidian venture]

Folks are skill issued and need 1 click grinds

[hard axle]

Nope, not anymore

Don’t need to tick eat iirc

[frozen lion]

Great people can solo TOB and no one actually does this except for swag and liteally no other purpose. If they found it fun they would be doing it on regular basis instead of just video record it and never go back.

[old shadow]

I think that group content shouldn’t cater to solo players just because they have a hard time finding a clan or friends

[obsidian venture]

Some People stream solo tob only

People do send it for fun

[hard axle]

You can just brutforce timely snack iirc

[frozen lion]

Yeah, it is content creator thing

[true talon]

Thats actually not the reason people want it solo.

[frozen lion]

Just like most of the weird game modes

[grand hawk]

I just don't see how its worth going out of your way at 12 crafting to make a bag that holds up to 5 jade/topaz/opal

[frozen lion]

Guess what, most players are not.

[old shadow]

Idk man it’s for new players

[grand hawk]

It'd be like if there was a coal bag that held 5 coal

It's just never going to be used

[hard axle]

@obsidian venture was hmt the only one where now you get hit 75 in solo at sote or normal tob as well?

[frozen lion]

Catering 0.1% players at most is cray

[obsidian venture]

There’s no catering at tob

Which is why it’s good

[old shadow]

In what world is that catering though malutor

[obsidian venture]

And jmods have consistently supported that moreso over the last few years

[minor whale]

Catering is when we don't change mechanics that have existed since it was created to make it easy for solo players

[frozen lion]

Unaction is also catering.

[old shadow]

Okay yeah this is just a question of intelligence now

[obsidian venture]

Don’t need to cater to shitters either tbh

[old shadow]

LMAO

[obsidian venture]

Learn the content or logout

[obsidian venture]

I mean they love the bowfa so it’s already lost

[frozen lion]

Learn solo content to not even want to do it anyway?

ok

[true talon]

As a video game player, i like to jump in an do content on my own time and not sit around. there is a reason WOW guilds have scheduled raid times as it requires everyone to meet up, if someone is out you need to have a replacement. so guilds have to manage a raid team 25 people to insure that they can raid when the scheduled. wow is actually about to do flex raiding in which the content scales for 15-25 this will massively help this type of problem and it allows guilds to not need to sit people and everyone can enjoy the content.

[minor whale]

Guys why are they catering to people with functional hands and thumbs by keeping tick flicking in the game this is unfair to those of us without hands

[obsidian venture]

Imagine if they made content for folks with working fingers?

Hard ask

[minor whale]

Why are they catering to people who don't have 7 children and 6 wives by forcing us to click on our client every now and then for XP gains

[true talon]

i dont think anyone cares about prayer flicking........ ive done all content outside of awakened without every flicking anything.

[hard axle]

I don’t think anyone is advocating for time based content 💀

[frozen lion]

I wonder how many of you would like to get tob solo added to CA

[obsidian venture]

That would be fine

[hard axle]

Fucking please

[old shadow]

honestly

That’d be pretty sick

Yeah

[hard axle]

Yes fuckingplease

[minor whale]

That'd be dope as hell

[hard axle]

Do it

Do it

[obsidian venture]

Yeah like what

[minor whale]

They should also add Radiant, Blorva, etc

[hard axle]

I’m mad that it isn’t in 2026

[true talon]

If they wante dto get rid of flickin they can just buff prayer pots

[obsidian venture]

Weed out the shitters

[minor whale]

Also to clog for those things too

[true talon]

1 sip now restores all prayer

[hard axle]

dude, radiant isn’t required for full GM

[frozen lion]

Who cares about blorva when u can solo tob lol

[old shadow]

That’d be a whole fucking like

Flex

[hard axle]

Demonic cow isn’t required either

[obsidian venture]

It’s cosmetic flex

[hard axle]

It’s still difficult content?

[old shadow]

But on the subject of catering

[ashen yarrow]

every content caters to someone. people just say its fine if it is accessible to their skill level. Like if they have content which you need to prayer flick for an hour straight there will be more people saying it is not fine but some people will still say it is fine because they can do it

[minor whale]

They should be adding the pinnacle of difficult content to the gm requirements yes

[hard axle]

CAs got diluted SO much over the years

[old shadow]

Yes, designing group content to be completed in groups is not catering

[frozen lion]

So what? We can make more almost impossible achievments to do

And call everyone who can't do them shitters

Right?

[true talon]

who cares about cosmetic armor that give no actual benefit other than you flexing your ego on people ho dont care XD

[old shadow]

Designing group content to be completed in groups while making it lenient enough to be done solo is catering

[frozen lion]

Why not 20 awakened leviathans without leaving arena

it is possible

[obsidian venture]

No. It’s to weed out the fake gms (many)

[frozen lion]

literally there is video of it

[old shadow]

Okay

Yeah

[hard axle]

Could

[old shadow]

So this entire conversation IS a skill issue

Remember when i was told i was gaslighting for saying it’s a skill issue

[obsidian venture]

Always has been tbf

[frozen lion]

if 1 player can do something it should be CA

and call all others shitters

[minor whale]

They're literally never going to change their minds, there's no point arguing really. We can just rest easy knowing that Jagex agreed with us and not a couple of turbo shitters angry that they can't get a group going for content

Peace out 🙏

[old shadow]

Gl with the toa yall

[true talon]

Personally idc, i have a scythe lol. me going to TOB for a rapier, or justice is actually

[obsidian venture]

Make sure to use a bib when potting content

[ashen yarrow]

designing group content but scaling it based on player count is also catering. designing group content and adding mechanics that can only be passed with certain amount of players is also catering

[old shadow]

You know what’s crazy though

The content has been soloed

All of it

Hmt has been soloed too

So where’s the catering to groups?

[frozen lion]

Inferno was done without any supps too

[true talon]

Actually you just do like COX and have the group mechanics that require coordination like a teleport or something just appear on the floor.......

[frozen lion]

Let's CA it

[minor whale]

On an entirely different topic

This shit is the funniest thing I've read in a while

[old shadow]

Yea i saw that it’s fucking horrible

Funny as fuck though

[ashen yarrow]

like people throw the catering word only to down play others but ignore if the catering is done towards the things they themselves do

[frozen lion]

let's weed out all fake gmers

and leave like 5 spots in entire game

[true talon]

like at TOB if you had the green ball solo, you could bounce it between spots like the yellows. to reduce the damage, you dont have to just take a 74 because there is no way to deal with it.

[old shadow]

Malutor

[frozen lion]

while rest uses still nice vamp

[old shadow]

So you’re admitting that

[obsidian venture]

Good

[hard axle]

You can be sarcastic, but it would be fire and Jagex would never do it in 2026.

[old shadow]

You just want raids to be easier for solo completion?

[hard axle]

they’re historically been making it easier to compete GM

[frozen lion]

Accessible for solo, not easier

[old shadow]

like you want less skill to be involved?

[frozen lion]

Not fake difficulty

[obsidian venture]

There’s hundreds of gms that are legit

[old shadow]

Yeah man by making it more accessible to solo you are making it more easier

[minor whale]

Guy's really mad we said "yeah solo ToB CA would rock?" So now he's just malding lmaooo

[obsidian venture]

So it’s fine if they remove the rest

[old shadow]

All raids have been soloed

[obsidian venture]

That’s good for the game

[hard axle]

Yup lmao

People pot solos for actual loot.

[obsidian venture]

This shit was too funny

[old shadow]

Bro that would actually be a good CA too

[hard axle]

It’s not a one-time challenge or fluke

[old shadow]

It’d be a fair GM CA

[obsidian venture]

Yeah

[hard axle]

Sasquatch is like 11 solo scythes?

[old shadow]

It’s just on par with perfect doom

[frozen lion]

So frekaing what? Don't you get it is done by literally only .001% of players and raids should be accessible to majority of end game people?

[true talon]

false, they do it for a flex an then never touch it.

[old shadow]

That’s the awesome part man

[obsidian venture]

Wrong

[frozen lion]

Freaking elitists lol

[old shadow]

You don’t need to be in the top 0.001% in this game

[hard axle]

Uhh, we literally have folks potting it for gp 😭

Fuck we saying

[old shadow]

You just need to have a group that’ll take you and a desire to learn

[hard axle]

11 solo scythes my guy

[old shadow]

That’s the fun part about group content

Is that it’s designed to be completed in groups

[frozen lion]

Being able to do as literally god perfect ticker = balanced content

Great

Seriously, tired of arguing with wall

[restive siren]

https://klipy.com/gifs/gatekeep--k01KQVYDJRHJVNVTW6PR02T70RN

[old shadow]

So just say you want the next raid to be easier

[obsidian venture]

No one has to be perfect

[old shadow]

And stop with the fault pretenses

[obsidian venture]

Look at this playerbase

[hard axle]

I’m not against matchmaking systems, but being honest with you, it’s not gonna change much

[frozen lion]

Do you even know word balanced?

[obsidian venture]

90% do not have hands

[old shadow]

Yeah man

[frozen lion]

No you don't

[hard axle]

I’ve seen all types of pvmers and most of the time, it’s just poor mental

[obsidian venture]

You’re gonna make a killing on hand surgery

[frozen lion]

Group raid = 50x easier = balanced

[obsidian venture]

If you go that route

[old shadow]

LMAO

[minor whale]

There's plenty of people who pot solo ToB for loot
Each completion averaging 9m per chest
And people think it's fun
Why wouldn't they do it

[frozen lion]

No, you don't know the meaning of the word

[old shadow]

HMT is 50x easier?

Yo

Someone take me right now i need kits

[frozen lion]

than solo?

[obsidian venture]

Solo tob is comparable to trio tob gp iirc

[frozen lion]

check how much people actually do solo hm

and how much people do group

[obsidian venture]

And it’s much easier nowadays

Due to removing tick eat p2

[old shadow]

Oh my god this is literally a

[obsidian venture]

Also was made way faster

[old shadow]

“I don’t want to find friends or a clan to go with” issue

[frozen lion]

and im talking about TOB

[old shadow]

In an mmo

[obsidian venture]

Very few do solo hm sure

[frozen lion]

there are mechanics that are designed to do as group

and there is literally no balance for solo

[old shadow]

Yeah

[minor whale]

"I want to lower the skill ceiling for this content because I can't reach it" is always a shame to see

[old shadow]

That’s the point

[frozen lion]

not being easier = balanced

[obsidian venture]

Group hm is common because it’s ass content and people want the rewards

[old shadow]

Of group content

It’s designed to be done in a group

[frozen lion]

https://tenor.com/view/ah-shit-here-we-go-again-gta-sa-cj-gta-again-gif-20425950

[old shadow]

?

[obsidian venture]

That’s why it’s a flex if you can solo it

[old shadow]

But I don’t think you’ve made any point that invalidates that?

[obsidian venture]

If you scale it to solo, you’re simplifying the raid

That’s not a good thing

[old shadow]

Raids are designed to be done in a group. Why should Jagex cater make a raid designed to be complete as a group lenient enough to be done solo?

[frozen lion]

You want group content to be group content only because you want to do it as a group only

[obsidian venture]

It works well because it’s still scaled up

[frozen lion]

its you you you

[austere mulch]

Low ceiling is crazy

[minor whale]

Personally I think if you have over 5b gp in this game you should be forced to hand over all your excess gp to those without that much because it's not fair some people in a video game have grinded out harder or more than others. We must lower to top end to match the average ASAP

[old shadow]

No man

[ashen yarrow]

raid are meant to be massive, why would jagex cater to below 100 player groups

[frozen lion]

You dgaf about any other players, if you can do some content it is good

[obsidian venture]

Doing a group content solo is cool and rewards skill

[old shadow]

I want group content to be done in a group

Because

I think it’s in the fucking name

[minor whale]

I want group content done in a group because it's group content in an MMO that the devs designed to be group content from the ground up

[frozen lion]

And once again what the fuck do you care if someone does it solo?

[minor whale]

You can do it solo

[old shadow]

Because it invalidates the design of group content?

[minor whale]

We have no qualms with people soloing ToB

[obsidian venture]

We don’t care if people do it solo

[minor whale]

We have qualms with making it easier

[obsidian venture]

We care if you scale it to solo

[old shadow]

^

[true talon]

TOB is low ceiling, there is nothing you can do it to make it harder only make it faster. the biggest gap is reducing player count but even then you have a static purple rate, like you cant do a 1+3 tob an get extra unique chance compared to cox.

[minor whale]

So that it's designed to be soloed and thus way easier

[obsidian venture]

Because it invalidates the difficulty concept

[frozen lion]

And what it changes for you?

[minor whale]

This has gotta be bait

[obsidian venture]

Look at how jagex loves talking about solo cox

[frozen lion]

CAs are still required to do it in group

not like you can cheese it

[old shadow]

Sorry I give a shit about the design of the game

[minor whale]

ToB low ceiling might be one of the funniest things I've ever read

Compared to ToA

[obsidian venture]

It’s complex because it was made for teams. Solos had to figure out concepts to solve the same raid

[minor whale]

Are we REALLY falling for this bait

[frozen lion]

It doesn't even affec you

[old shadow]

It does though

[frozen lion]

No it does not

[old shadow]

I merch bro all my gp depends on game design

[hard axle]

You know what this reminds me of? People who were demanding Perfect ToB to fail only if u failed it 😭

[obsidian venture]

It’s quite literally what Jagex loves about emergent gameplay

[true talon]

it does have a low ceiling? name one thing you can do in tob (besides solo it) to make it more difficult?

[austere mulch]

Are you talking about ceiling as in scaling or as in skill ceiling

[obsidian venture]

If you don’t understand that just don’t talk Malutor

[frozen lion]

That's why tumeken is still almost 1b while being "shit raid so easy etc."?

[austere mulch]

Because the skill ceiling across raids couldn’t be more drastic

[obsidian venture]

1b is ass

[old shadow]

1b is low for how busted the fuck shadow is

[frozen lion]

My line, ty

[obsidian venture]

Toa is so shit that a mega is below 1b

[hard axle]

you know they’ve been actively sinking shadows right?

[true talon]

scaling ceiling.....

[old shadow]

You wanna know why it’s that low

[minor whale]

Shadow is expensive because it's overturned to absolute fuck

[old shadow]

It’s because they made it easy as fuck to obtain

By solo players

[minor whale]

It's got like 10x as many Shadows in game as Tbows and Scythes

[old shadow]

So yes

It does affect me

[minor whale]

Because they fucked up loot by making solos so easy that it just prints them

[hard axle]

someone find the data that they broke down how they used Ge tax to sink toa uniques

[frozen lion]

Damn 850m is low

[old shadow]

I’d like my gp to not be based on shitters that can’t do content

Yes 850m is low it’s a fucking mega rare

[hard axle]

Iirc, it was far more toa uniques

[frozen lion]

what other solo content gives you anything even close to 800m?

[obsidian venture]

Cox?

[minor whale]

Imagine how expensive it would be without the shitters pumping them into the game

[old shadow]

Cox yeah

[obsidian venture]

Almost double

[frozen lion]

Cox is raid

next?

[hard axle]

Which is bad because it turns them to pseudo high alchs

[obsidian venture]

Toa is a raid

Next

[frozen lion]

You call it shit being scaled to solo

[austere mulch]

No real benefit in doing 1+7 500s either so not sure what the critique is here

[old shadow]

Yes, it is shit

Wanna know why shadow is so fucking cheap

[frozen lion]

Then next argument

[old shadow]

Compared to t bow and scythe

[frozen lion]

instead of CoX

[old shadow]

Because it’s easily soloable

[frozen lion]

So is ToA

ToB*

[old shadow]

easily brother

[frozen lion]

ok now need to edit lul

[austere mulch]

Tob has far more skill expression than cox and toa, which is part of why it’s as beloved as it is

[obsidian venture]

You can farm solo scythes yes

What’s next

[old shadow]

Bro can’t you shitters just find friends

[hard axle]

Again, like I asked Tass, would you record yourself eating shit for $1B? Content can be shit and still rewarding because you overload it.

[obsidian venture]

They might be blind

[minor whale]

Guys guys guys we gotta recognize the real enemy here

Raids themselves are only done by the 1% of elitist gamers, megas need to be moved to the respective Dag King. It's unfair that the 1% are being catered to and the average gamer can't get one of these items.

[frozen lion]

sure, then give half of it on charity and be called saint

[hard axle]

Tob is mechanical ceiling, cox is procedural ceiling

[frozen lion]

your point?

[obsidian venture]

Talking with Billybobs leads to this sadly 🙁

[old shadow]

Fuck it move scythe to muspah

[true talon]

Lets compare a EXPERT TOB player to a EXPERT COX player.

EXPERT TOB player can adjust their raid and improve their skills in it, make it faster and difficulty comes from reducing players. no added benefit, longer raid if solo compared to trio/duo.

EXPERT COX player can adjust their raid, improve their times, make it faster, can increase the difficulty by adding players improving the reward chance at the cost of time/proper mechanical management.

Thus the only thing that can be changed in TOB is increased difficulty by reducing player count for no additional reward, adds time to raid itself. this is bad in comparison to COX.

[ashen yarrow]

content is bad because i dont like that mentality is going hard here

[obsidian venture]

This is such a good copy pasta

[austere mulch]

Also people always talk about solo cox like you just go in and learn it solo first thing.

That is almost never the profession because of olm, and would be an awful experience

Progression is teams > solos

Which you can also do in tob now

The turnaround time may be different, but the process is the same

[frozen lion]

literally so shit claims

[old shadow]

No I think ToA content is bad because it is bad

[hard axle]

You just proved it, that it doesn’t matter how bad a content is as long as you get enough out of it.

[old shadow]

Rewards hamstringed the fuck out of design space

[austere mulch]

Even aSara is soloing tob in 2026

[old shadow]

On top of being incredibly easy to solo

On top of being incredibly common

[frozen lion]

Your statements are garbage

[old shadow]

Yes I’d much rather have a more tob-like raid

[true talon]

there is no benefit to solo tob compared to solo cox

[obsidian venture]

Says the person who doesn’t understand content

😭

[frozen lion]

Because if that situation came to be offered to you irl you would eat it before even replying

[austere mulch]

Ok also just to be clear

[minor whale]

Brother saw EVscape do a 100 man cm one time and went "this is truly the pinnacle of skill, solo ToB is a snooze fest" and it shows

[frozen lion]

Guy gaslights claim that would literally refer to himself

xDDDD

[austere mulch]

1+2 cox is no harder/easier than 1+14

It’s the exact same thing, but you’re hitting a meat sack for longer

[old shadow]

But I don’t get it why do you guys want content designed to be complete in groups to be easily accessible to solo players

[true talon]

TOB difficulty comes from removing players for no added benefit.
COX difficult comes from adding players for additional rewards.
Not hard to see why cox is better.

[old shadow]

I still haven’t had a single answer to that question

[austere mulch]

Actually jk 1+14 is easier because you don’t cripple hand

[old shadow]

And i’ve asked like

6 times

Like why do you want that

[austere mulch]

So I think your assessment of “difficulty” is skewed

[obsidian venture]

Dunno

He runs 17m tobs

So it is cooked

[austere mulch]

Same way how 500 toa isn’t really “harder” than 400

It’s just slower

[old shadow]

Can someone answer though

[true talon]

Werid that people compare fast to difficulty.

[obsidian venture]

545s were actual chiller toas

Because you didn’t spec as much

[hard axle]

What they don’t know is that Toa literally has no reason to be done in team outside of bingos and fun because the reward and raid structure actually penalizes you for potting in teams 😔

[obsidian venture]

300s have more apm than a 500

[austere mulch]

Efficient 300s way harder than 500s

[old shadow]

Tbh toa is better solo yeah

[austere mulch]

Akka

[hard axle]

speed 300s are legitimately the only fun part 😭

[obsidian venture]

Akkha is insane in a 300

[hard axle]

cuz ur ZOOMING

[old shadow]

This is why i don’t really like jagex catering to players just because players want things to be easier

[frozen lion]

So you just do it because it is easier.

[old shadow]

Bro actually yes i do toa solo because it’s easier

And less chance of splitting gp

I still think toa is a shit raid and badly designed entirely

[true talon]

Invo system was done poorly. they could revamp TOA to be like COX and just remove invo's and bake them into the mechanics of the boss with drastic changes.

[frozen lion]

I thought you don;'t want such kind of content

[ashen yarrow]

so for tob removing players from max team = have to do more and slower = more skill expression. For other raids it is somehow less skill expression if players have to do more and is slower because you hate the other raids

[old shadow]

I don’t

[frozen lion]

Stop playing content you don't like?

[old shadow]

But i’ll take advantage of it because why not?

[frozen lion]

Hypocrisy at its finest

[old shadow]

?

That’s not hypocrisy LMAO

[hard axle]

We don’t, and we’ve asked Jagex to buff teams repeatedly

[obsidian venture]

No

[hard axle]

They said no

I’m not gonna blacklist myself from pet hunting because I disagree with how it’s balanced

[true talon]

They cooked that invo system up from some poe type game or something lol

[frozen lion]

@old shadow if you don't like people driving on sidewalks but you drive on them because it benefits you in time saved etc. yes it is hypocrisy

[minor whale]

Hypocrisy is when I do things I don't prefer because the devs designed it that way to be the most efficient

[old shadow]

Are you dense

[austere mulch]

Removing players from tob changes how you do the rooms, it doesn’t just make them the same room but slower

[minor whale]

That might be
Unironically
The dumbest analogy I've ever read

[old shadow]

Yeah they’re not bright

[austere mulch]

Unless you’re a burger

[obsidian venture]

Removing players from Tob specifically leads to solving the room different. Leads to different inventories and strats. It’s completely different from the other two raids.
In cox it’s literally just olm that changes

[true talon]

INVO's was meant to be customzation for your raid to make it as difficult or easy as you want, but they added a invo cap and then made invos that do nothing but add health an defense.

like if you can scale your TOA to 1000 that adds like awakened boss mechanics over increasing health/defense

[minor whale]

"You don't like broccoli but you eat it because it's healthy for you? You fucking hypocrite"

[austere mulch]

Toa had a great concept, but the execution was polar opposite

[true talon]

I think if it was re-done today. they could really save it.

[minor whale]

I mean yeah you won't catch me saying invos are at all good, they ABSOLUTELY suck ass in a major way

[ashen yarrow]

yes, in other raids you can also change inventory and strat based on players to maximize efficiency

[minor whale]

There's a LOT of ways ToA could be made better

[frozen lion]

It is perfect already.

[obsidian venture]

They barely change

[minor whale]

LOL

[frozen lion]

Jagex did good job with ToA.

[austere mulch]

Toa team speeds are basically just 5 players soloing wym

[ashen yarrow]

like 2 man and 100 man cox you do completely differently. if you only look at solo cox with scaling added then yes there is less changes on how you do things

[hard axle]

Yeah, he’s just malding from us wanting perfect tob on CAs and is just being an anti

[austere mulch]

2man 100 scale you do the exact same as 2man 15 scale

It’s just slower

[obsidian venture]

No

[minor whale]

Bro even the most stringent ToA defenders think they failed massively with invos, scaling of def and HP, and entirely forgetting they promised to update and add more invos consistently

[obsidian venture]

Scaling doesn’t affect much besides time and damage taken

Only solo changes how you do stuff at olm

[hard axle]

Jagex mentioned invos were poorly done and that’s the one of the few things Tass and I both agree on 😭

[obsidian venture]

Yeah like they legit binned it for future content

Please tell me again how good they were 😂😂

[minor whale]

Instead Jagex decided to do the dumbest series of Reddit changes of all time by removing mechanics from Baba, making monkey room afk, removing half the orbs at Akkha, making Akkha only need 2 styles, etc etc etc

[obsidian venture]

“We learned that this system sucks and we won’t do it again”

[minor whale]

Yeah for real Jagex themselves said ToA invos are bad lmaooo

And they aren't going to do them again

[obsidian venture]

I would love Toa to be fun

[austere mulch]

They’re so bad that they completely binned the idea of adding new iterations of invos with future dev, which was a huge talking point pre release

[obsidian venture]

Sadly it won’t be the case

Yeah like I feel as if you don’t listen to what jagex says

[true talon]

i mean they werent bad changes. removing the chip from baba was good, the ahhka changes was also good as all people were doing is running around in circles stalling the mechanics as long as they could.

[obsidian venture]

Most things we have said so far is something a current j mod has echoed in recent times

[hard axle]

The hp scaling and defense scaling as “difficulty” were the worst parts of 500+ toa.

The difficulty should’ve been from the actual invos, not the raid level.

[obsidian venture]

So arguing against that is hilarious

[hard axle]

which I know you also mentioned as well

[minor whale]

But it's perfect and Jagex did fantastic 💔

[hard axle]

Insanity 2, Insanity 3, Insnaity 4

[minor whale]

They could have at very least amped up orb damage

[obsidian venture]

However feel free to complain as everyone is entitled to that

[minor whale]

If you want to make orbs have any risk at least make them hit like a truck

[hard axle]

one of the biggest let downs was the fact that both wardens didn’t fight you at the same time

that should’ve been an invo

[minor whale]

They took half away and did nothing to replace that missing difficulty lever

[ashen yarrow]

they are bad because players want to use extra methods to skip mechanics to make it easier instead of doing mechanics with reduced damage

[minor whale]

Just flatly taking away a mechanic's difficulty curve and adding nothing to rebalance it is just wild

[frozen lion]

Of course that only if at p3 you have 4 bosses throwing shit at you

[austere mulch]

I remember everyone was so hyped and labbing/theorycrafting ideas on release week and legit halfway through, there was a point where people were like “so… this is it?”

[hard axle]

You randomize which one throws shit at you or off-tick it

[minor whale]

I mean Jagex flat out lied about several of the bosses and then just swept it under the rug

[hard axle]

they’ve been able to force off-tick for years atp

last one was TD

[minor whale]

They said it'd be 2 wardens and a fight against 2 enemies at once
You're not fighting any more than one. You can't even interact with anything but the single activated warden.

That's not a fight against multiple enemies

[frozen lion]

you have 2 duos at p3, making it actually all 4

[hard axle]

Yes, are you reading what I’m saying

[minor whale]

Verzik spawning tornadoes doesn't mean it's now got multiple enemies to fight

[austere mulch]

Don’t forget crabs!

[minor whale]

You can't say unattackable NPCs shooting attacks at you is somehow "fighting multiple enemies at once"

That's absolutely no different to if the warden shot them themself

[hard axle]

Being able to disrupt the phantoms would’ve been lit tbh

[old shadow]

ToA had such potential idk

[minor whale]

Literally anything would have been dope

[hard axle]

they way u could either play it safe or play it fast

[old shadow]

Too bad they made it easy as fuck and too accessible for solo with excessively forgiving drop rates

[minor whale]

They just over promised and under delivered

Again

Just like Huey and Colo and and and

[old shadow]

Yama

[hard axle]

The problem is they refused to take away or replace invos and add the easy ones to the base mechanics

[old shadow]

I can forgive sailing, since it is a new skill

[hard axle]

this happened repeatedly

during the adjustments

[austere mulch]

Huey is so funny because it was pitched as this mountain climb of battle where you’re slowing taking out more and more of the boss, and then get to the big finale at the top

[hard axle]

Like SP to QP was a massive buff lmao

to loot

[austere mulch]

And the “mountain climb” aspect of the fight is legit turning 1 corner

[hard axle]

Free 20 invo for no impact

[minor whale]

Nothing will ever disappoint me more than the day I climbed Proudspire and didn't find Huey

Looked East and saw a tiny hill

And went oh no

[hard axle]

You too lmao?

I went there the first time

[minor whale]

Please don't let that be the "giant mountain"

Yup

[hard axle]

My ass did not read the patch notes

I just saw mountain and walked there

[old shadow]

I wonder why they didn’t put huey in proudspire

[minor whale]

I was pumped, thought there would be a quest or something to access it, then turns out it's on a hill as high as a Barrows mound

[old shadow]

I feel like the only really good content we’ve received in a while is like

Moons of peril

[minor whale]

Moons is designed very well

You can tell all the love went to that

[old shadow]

Yeah it’s phenomenal

[minor whale]

Colo was missing like any design at all

It's SO ugly

[old shadow]

I remember moons being released with colo

[hard axle]

yeah colosseum was the middle child of Varlamore p1

[old shadow]

And being like

Yo wtf happened

[hard axle]

water strike shamans

https://tenor.com/view/tortuga-scream-gif-16944571246409172204

[noble vortex]

Issa meeee

[minor whale]

Remember when they said Sol would be fighting against a moving locked in arena and then that just didn't happen 😭

Remember the phalanxes that were supposed to be mobile pillars

Remember the endless mode

[true talon]

that hit 30s

[minor whale]

No gotta ignore that we need to add 3 more butterfly spawns to Neypotzli

[old shadow]

Lmao endless colosseum

I just kind of think they always focus on one thing and make everything else subpar

[true talon]

enrage delves...... which just turned into how many floors you can do in 6h lmao.

[hard axle]

[old shadow]

Tbh delve is pretty cool

It’s more so like

Delve and yama were being developed at the same time

[minor whale]

Delve is cool but it's very different from what they pitched

[true talon]

Delves coulda been better if you can bank like in rs3

[old shadow]

Delve? Fucking sick, good content

[minor whale]

I think the wave skip should have come into the game

[old shadow]

Yama? The “endgame duo boss?” Is arguably afk

[hard axle]

Idk how they could make enrage better tbh.

More hp? More mechanics?

[true talon]

Not real enrage content if your limited by the space and logout timer

[old shadow]

same with moons of peril / colosseum

Moons? BEAUTIFUL and really well designed content

Colosseum? Fuck it just make it hard and sent it out

[hard axle]

My ass was facetanking during donofly and that laziness did fuck me when it came to radiant

had to break the bad habit

[true talon]

Remove grubs, they are a pretty big limiting factor, maybe just remove the melee grubs.

[hard axle]

[old shadow]

??

[hard axle]

That makes it easier

Not harder

Enrage should be harder

[true talon]

melee grubs is an rng check not difficulty

[old shadow]

Delve hitting a 80 on you instead of a 12 on you is rng

Everything this game is, is rng

[true talon]

Random spawns, guess the grubs will go path though a sea of acid and go into the boss while your in your 1 remaining sq

[old shadow]

The way it’s designed is to have a way to deal with them

That is what draws the line between the skill checks

I don’t like making the game more easier for players that want to have hard content to complete

[true talon]

Actually someone who gets 0 melee grubs and more mage/range grubs has a much better time delving as they are skillfully dealing with things using ranged over the guy chasing melee grubs though acid

[old shadow]

Who gets 0 melee grubs

[true talon]

You confuse difficult with tedious

[minor whale]

I think handling rng is a skill in itself

[restive sapphire]

^

[frozen lion]

Still raids aside, BA should have matchmaking option, wouldn't hurt and only make grouping smoother.

[minor whale]

Adapting to any situation is absolutely a skillful expression

[hard axle]

This still make it easier if no melee grubs because you never pop grubs far from boss anyway

[ashen yarrow]

it does have matchmaking system, arrow room. No one just uses it

[minor whale]

Yeah it's one of the pieces of content with an actual matchmaking room

[old shadow]

I think there’s kind of a subset of players that want things just spoonfed to them and other players that want to engage with difficulty

[true talon]

its just a bad mecchanic if you cant control their spawns and you cant control were the acid goes.

[hard axle]

Can confirm, everyone just meets room 1 and they can’t move the room cuz it’s bugged

[restive sapphire]

i enjoy the casual ba community
very little downtime once i knew the peopl

[minor whale]

BA is good content

[hard axle]

Again, we were talking about how to make enrage more enrage, not baby like

[frozen lion]

Does it allow to choose specific role or it chooses itself?

[minor whale]

Asks for suggestions on how to fix content
Look inside
"Make this easier"

[hard axle]

DHBA for pet hunters

[ashen yarrow]

can select role you want or any role if you want random role

[true talon]

I think there is a subset of players who think tedious really stupid mechanics that add no value are confused as difficulty. Does you running across the room though a pool of acid to hit a melee grub seem more skillful or tedious? what if there was no melee grubs but the grubs came from multiple directions, so you had to focus your clicks across the room on mage/range grubs. there is several ways to add skill without adding bull shit rng tedious things like melee grubs

[old shadow]

Yes, dealing with rng and adapting is skillful

[true talon]

Its not

[restive sapphire]

imma agree
making most of a bad situation is a skill
making connections for group content is a skill
you will not die irl if ur delve streak is cut short by bad rng

[hard axle]

Tbh, you can say anything is “tedious” and say it deserves to be removed.

For example, Medic.

[ashen yarrow]

The main downside about the arrow room is that the matchmaking only works with other players inside the arrow room

[hard axle]

It’s not a great argument, especially if you actively benefit from it.

[old shadow]

That’s the issue though

[frozen lion]

Maybe if it had some settings like minimum combat lvl etc. would be actually good. And all should be in main lobby instead of separating.

[old shadow]

Players want content to be designed for them in particular, so if they don’t agree with it then they argue against it

[hard axle]

All grubs are “tedious”, but you shoot them because they do 100 damage on the shield lmao

[old shadow]

Raids are designed for groups? Let me complain that i can’t solo them

[hard axle]

That’s why you aren’t advocating for mage/range grubs to be removed

[minor whale]

It's absurd to say it's not skillful to plot a route through acid to attack a grub up close

Versus just standing still and swapping weapons which is what just ranged and mage grubs would be

[frozen lion]

Wasn't god wars also designed as group content?

[minor whale]

Doesn't matter where they're coming from, they're slow as shit regardless and removing melees would make grubs sooooo free

[old shadow]

Are you comparing god wars to raids

[restive sapphire]

i think the soloability of cox is perfect but lightning in a bottle
completely changes how you need to approach the fight without being particularly tedious

[frozen lion]

Answer question

Group content is groupc ontent

[minor whale]

You mean the content that doesn't scale down to solo players?

[old shadow]

Yeah, in 2006, when BiS was fucking dharoks

What is your point

[minor whale]

Do you want gwd bosses to have reduced health and mechanics if you enter solo?

Because that's what you're asking

[true talon]

yes i got my first bando's hilt by massing bandos with dark bows

[old shadow]

I actually don’t even understand the comparison

[ashen yarrow]

all early bosses were designed as group content and they get easier to solo when gear slowly gets powercrept. Tob is exactly same

[minor whale]

Yup

[old shadow]

That might’ve been the dumbest comment in this discussion so far, the god wars analogy

[minor whale]

ToB in 10 years will be easily soloable

[old shadow]

Correct yeah

[true talon]

god wars was indeed meant to be group content. their limitation was they couldnt go past 255hp so they jacked their defenses to the fucking moon and added lots of chip damage.

[frozen lion]

They added solo CAs and solo private instances for them. Wouldn't that be against group designed content?

[minor whale]

The longer the discussion goes on the worse the takes from him are becoming

[restive sapphire]

when is tob harderest mode

[old shadow]

Solo CAs? The ones they added after years of gear progression that allows you to solo a boss within 20 seconds?

[true talon]

They didnt break out of 255hp bars untill corp

[old shadow]

What on earth is your point

[minor whale]

When we said they could add solo ToB CA you got piss mad about that
Choose a side bro lmao

They don't scale down

You can enter ToB solo too

[frozen lion]

Question: is it okay they did that?

[true talon]

solo TOB CA would be fucking hilarious, because the amount of GM's would drop drastically.

[austere mulch]

Melee grubs are not nearly as big an issue as you’re making them out to be lol

[old shadow]

Is it okay that they added solo CAs? Yeah

[true talon]

they arent, but they are a factor in deep delveing and a limiting one.

[ashen yarrow]

as long as they dont add some weird mechanic to prevent soloing like something that deletes you if certain amount of players are not standing in correct spots i am fine with raids being mainly made for group content.

[hard axle]

Yes? Because solo GWD is harder than teams and doesn’t make the boss any easier.

The problem with scaling raids down to solo is that you’re asking them to make it easier.

[old shadow]

But what the fuck is the point

[austere mulch]

Hardly. Assuming you clean like a human

I think solo tob would be a good ca tbh

[old shadow]

It’s GWD, content designed for a group when BiS was karils and dharoks

[minor whale]

That they added a solo ca and made it able to be entered solo, but didn't scale down any mechanics or HP values to make it easier for a solo?

Yes? What the fuck is your point of asking this
We've said that's fine for ToB too as long as it doesn't scale down lmao

Like legitimately

[old shadow]

It’s not only that it doesn’t scale

[minor whale]

Are you arguing just to argue

[old shadow]

It’s literally that like

[hard axle]

Solo GWD CAs being added is more support for Solo ToB to be added as a CA since both are viable now due to powercreep.

[austere mulch]

Solo tob is far more achievable than most people realize just because they’ve never given it an attempt

[true talon]

ehh i think group design with scale to solo is best design.

[old shadow]

It has been so fucking powercrept that it’s not considered group content anymore

[austere mulch]

• you can very much brute force a lot of it these days

[obsidian venture]

That’s fine to think but it hasn’t worked out

[minor whale]

If they made it scale without making solo the defacto best thing to do it'd be fine

[true talon]

name one example how it hasnt worked out?

[old shadow]

It did not work out for ToA in terms of game health. It worked out for your account

[minor whale]

But Jagex fails at that

[obsidian venture]

And is why Jagex continues to talk highly about cox/tob difficulty

[minor whale]

Really really bad

[old shadow]

ToA? Wtf

[austere mulch]

Toa

[obsidian venture]

Yeah literally toa

[hard axle]

Yama

[old shadow]

Why do you think the devs are moving away from ToA? Lmao

[hard axle]

Base Yama is shit man

[minor whale]

Any time solo becomes intended, solo becomes the best method by a huge margin

[true talon]

Was toa group designed an scaled to solo? or was it designed in a way that allowed customzation based around your skill level.

[austere mulch]

Toa and Yama were both designed with solo in mind, and as a result the team version is just more players doing a solo together

[obsidian venture]

It was designed for solo

With scaling

[hard axle]

Started off as solo

[old shadow]

It was designed for solo yeah

[restive sapphire]

you barely play toa differently if you are solo or a group

[hard axle]

Teams were an afterthought

[minor whale]

It was designed for solo and they said it was designed for solo

[obsidian venture]

But in teams you only need 1 person to do stuff

[true talon]

correct so thats reverse as to what i said

[minor whale]

And it's bad

[true talon]

i said designed for group an scaled to solo

like cox

[obsidian venture]

That’s why there’s no customization

[minor whale]

CoX is good yes

[obsidian venture]

There’s not really any team strats that’s different

[true talon]

while TOB is designed for group and scaled to 3

[old shadow]

Which is good

[minor whale]

It's designed for teams and solos are possible
ToB is also in this category

[old shadow]

ToA is bad for a multitude of reasons

[austere mulch]

And duo tob is one of the most loved scales

[restive sapphire]

they need to double their iq to bring other cox

[obsidian venture]

Only thing would be ladder dd at akkha but who tf runs those invos anymore

[austere mulch]

Even tho it scales to 3

Funny how that works

[obsidian venture]

Was common in 545s

[old shadow]

Also yeah yama

[obsidian venture]

But they effectively killed high invo toa

[old shadow]

My hot take is that jagex needs to stop catering to irons entirely

And design the game exclusively around mains

[austere mulch]

Also, saying tob doesn’t scale to 2 or 1 isn’t entirely true either

Because there are parts of the raid that do

[ashen yarrow]

toa is clearly designed to be soloable since soloing straight up removes some mechanics they have in group. Like cox hp/stats scale to 1 but mechanics still stay same as in group, imagine if olm teleport special just gets removed in solo because there is no other player to link with

[obsidian venture]

You do realize that they specifically mentioned how the new raid will follow a tob like format?

[austere mulch]

Tob stats are scaled to 3, but the raid does accommodate solo and duo

Which is good imo. Could it be more accommodating? That’s up to anyone’s opinion

[old shadow]

I don’t think group content should be accommodating to solo players

[true talon]

yes it will be duo with boss rush style like tob

[old shadow]

I think ToA was a terrible mistake in several ways

[obsidian venture]

Scaled to 2*

[true talon]

they said it would be soloable, but harder.

[obsidian venture]

Yes

[true talon]

thats literally the same as yama

[old shadow]

I like the direction jagex says that the raid is going to perform like

[obsidian venture]

Why would they implement something similar to tob if they didn’t like it?

[minor whale]

That's also literally the same as ToB

[true talon]

meaning they wont make a mechanic that wont be only done by 2 people

[old shadow]

They might introduce tick eats as an official mechanic to complete a solo

[obsidian venture]

If toa was truly successful (numbers wise it is) then every raid going forward would follow suit

But instead they went backwards and said you know what, tob system is back

[ashen yarrow]

it depends on how you understand the meaning. it could be either like yama where you can do all the mechanics solo easily or tob where you have to do a lot more solo compared to team to complete the mechanics

[old shadow]

And they’re right for that

[frozen lion]

Then ToB wasn't successful as they released ToA?

[obsidian venture]

Because they recognize themselves that making a group base content that doesn’t scale to solo, means the solo is more rewarding

[obsidian venture]

It wasn’t on release no

[hard axle]

Do you know if sote death ball reduces to 75 damage in normal mode if you’re only one in room like in hmt?

[minor whale]

Yup
Lots of play count doesn't mean the devs are happy with it
The most common dividend isn't the thing to shoot for lmao

[hard axle]

Yeah, toa had more long-term problems so more completions doesn’t mean much

[obsidian venture]

But after years it stood the test of time and it’s something jmods looked at to be more successful in retaining players and promoting skillful gameplay

[true talon]

TOA was very successful, the system they tried to do failed. they tried to bring it back with colo and it also kind of failed there as well.

[obsidian venture]

Yes my point

[old shadow]

How do you measure success?

[minor whale]

Then cox wasn't successful because they released ToB?

No, but when you go back to a style of raid after trying 3 it's a pretty good signal they think as devs that's the one to emulate

[hard axle]

it’s also way simpler to implement

[obsidian venture]

Long term

Short term toa was by far the most engaged

[minor whale]

And they literally openly said that the invo system they'll never do again

[true talon]

subs gained, player engagement, raids completed, player retention.

[frozen lion]

As long as they will keep continuing that onward, I guess so.

[old shadow]

You know

[obsidian venture]

Long term it’s fallen flat, doesn’t engage end game players, and items are in the bin price wise

[old shadow]

If they make a raid that’s just as easy as like

DT2

That’d be successful to you by your definition

[true talon]

TOA items still better than TOB (outside of 1)

[obsidian venture]

That’s fine yes

[hard axle]

and that’s with a bigger chunk of ge tax being sunk on toa uniques over cox/tob

[obsidian venture]

I’d only disagree how accessible it actually should be

[hard axle]

It leads to more inflation

[obsidian venture]

Because shadow shouldn’t drop at 150s but alas

[old shadow]

ToA should’ve been as difficult as tob

[ashen yarrow]

all content can be considered both success or failure at the same time, just depends on what you use as measurement

[hard axle]

How many balance changes have they done to toa drop wise? 6?

[old shadow]

Shadow shouldn’t’ve dropped beneath 450

[obsidian venture]

Lost count

[minor whale]

A lot of irons don't do tob not because they want it solo but because the rewards are from a time where powercreep was the world's biggest Boogeyman and 1 out of 8 rewards are useful

[hard axle]

6 fucking reworks is abysmal

[true talon]

there is barely any shadows coming from 150 and i do agree it should have been bumped to 300. but then youd say tbow shouldnt come from chambers unless CM or scythe should only come from HM tob.

[austere mulch]

They can make mechanics that are far more punishing with 1, like sote ball

And hopefully they do

[obsidian venture]

No because Toa specifically uses a invocation system

[austere mulch]

Solo should be a challenge that the players solve, not a design the devs build

[obsidian venture]

Hence its not ideal to compare that to base modes with harder components

[hard axle]

Depends on baseline difficult.

Normal mode toa 150s is not the same as normal cox or tob in terms of difficulty.

[obsidian venture]

The term “emergent gameplay” is key in understanding what most of us in this chat are arguing

[hard axle]

Toa 150s feels closer to entry mode tob ngl

[obsidian venture]

Ye

[austere mulch]

Idr tbh, it’s been a few years since I tried for solo hmt and I don’t watch the content either