game-update

[austere mulch]

But he 100% clarified that the avg was looking at the method as a whole

[warm epoch]

Looks like reddit

Look at the avatar

[austere mulch]

With the peaks being outliers

[ember token]

his 2nd tweet on the topic he said "Average 45k xp/hr"

[nocturne solstice]

Unfortunately as a reddit avoider I wouldnt be able to tell

[austere mulch]

Though I suppose if you had an infinite supply of alts with tons of slayer points each, you could maintain the higher rates long term

Which I guess could be problematic? Would probably need botted accounts to even make that realistic

[nocturne solstice]

Ill take your word for it though, but his fans (Not you Tiiim) earlier here have only mentioned 45k/hr so now this 70k/hr is new information to me.

Either way, gunna just wait for the whole story

[warm epoch]

Whole story would be good yeah

I think Jagex also needs to clarify some things

[austere mulch]

He shared some clips of the method(s), a lot will clear up when the whole thing is out for sure

[austere mulch]

Also they apparently only reset rendi’s slayer points. Everyone else got to keep theirs 😂

Shouldn’t be funny but it kinda has some humor to it

[dire mango]

How many bottles of rendis diet coke did jagex take for this bug abuse?

[gaunt minnow]

He’s clearly playing into it

It’s all for publicity like I said, his villain arc

Idm I enjoy his videos

[zenith python]

We need to be able to reset relics at least once per leagues,

[ashen yarrow]

relic resets not going to happen since they are too powerful selections with point caps on benefits

[gaunt minnow]

Relic resets would be too broken

Just put more than 30 seconds of planning into it

I didn’t regret any of my relics

I could see an undo option if you click the wrong one but as soon as you exit the interface it becomes broken

[minor whale]

It'd enable way too many easy methods of maxing

Could choose the best relic for every skill and then reset to solve the others

[zenith python]

Isn’t that the point of leagues for it to be broken and have the most fun with it? For and just 1 relic would be fine grimore

Was so ass compared

[ashen yarrow]

grimoire is good if you want combat power without having prayer/spellbook regions

[gaunt minnow]

People always go back to this as a justification but it’s clear you havnt put any thought into it. The people who race to dragon and rank 1 need it to be somewhat balanced

Just put more thought into the planning 👍🏼

Everyone knew Grimoire would be ass

Literally everyone

[zenith python]

I’m already done with leagues, got dragon cup and dipped but I think a relic reset would keep players playing for longer

[gaunt minnow]

While yeah that’s probably true, again, it’s too overpowered to be justified

Maybe I could see it for like the final day of leagues

[halcyon lintel]

Why does it matter if a temporary game mode has overpowered stuff?

[hasty shard]

if you want another relic you take reloaded

hope this helps

[ashen yarrow]

if they do relic resets it would come with leaderboard removal and cannot gain anymore league points after. Which would cause riots because people want free points

[gaunt minnow]

Because people have put tonnes of hours into point capping and even dragon trophy there needs to be some level of balance

(Again)

[hasty shard]

love the insinuation that turning leagues into a creative mode checklist would somehow be fun

[gaunt minnow]

Yeah that would be fine. If you wanna reset your relics you forfeit points and rank

[minor whale]

Removing all hurdles makes everything less fun

[ashen yarrow]

you are free to play league without caring about dragon rank or points or maxing. You have options to take relics that let you have fun instead of maximizing points

[zenith python]

As I said I’m done with leagues I’m this is also my first leagues and grid was more fun for myself, leagues was just main game with slightly more dps unless u went mage thorns

[gaunt minnow]

I love it when people refuse to prepare for leagues, then start playing and cry to jagex that they picked the wrong thing

[ashen yarrow]

even melee blindbag is over 2x main game dps

[zenith python]

No one’s crying lol

[gaunt minnow]

Grid was fun but was also over in 10 hours

[zenith python]

Maybe I’m comparing leagues to grid too much, but grid was just insanely op and fun,

[gaunt minnow]

You were stupidly overpowered

[ashen yarrow]

you would on purpose have to not take any damage/attack speed increases in demonic pacts and play without getting good gear to deal same or less dps than in main game

[zenith python]

I was under the impression that limited time modes were supposed to insanely op and game breaking, not be what the main game is gonna be in a couple years compared to dps. Wise lol

[gaunt minnow]

I really like how leagues is a slower pace and there’s still people playing 1 month into the league

Grid it was impossible to find a raid team mate after day 2

[ashen yarrow]

gridmaster is just a sped up version of leagues without limiting you to specific combat style

[zenith python]

Maybe it was the 130 pacts to choose from but that shit wasn’t “fun” to learn about and plan,

[gaunt minnow]

That’s your opinion

I had an incredible amount of fun planning and playing

And I got dragon + 10k and still wanted to keep going

[zenith python]

I’ll always get dragon cup and dip from now on leagues was fun, but imo hope they don’t do the pact stuff next leagues and go back to the combat system for all the other leagues

[ashen yarrow]

i guess if players have only ever experienced gridmaster then leagues will have more planning. gridmaster was same for everone, while leagues you choose your own path

[gaunt minnow]

I think the pact system and region locks are guaranteed for leagues going forward

Most people really enjoyed the pacts system and want to see it again

[zenith python]

I disagree or they wouldn’t be handing out pact resets every update if that was the case

[ashen yarrow]

also less resets for pacts probably, unless they go the version of grinding for resets. which i wouldn't like

[gaunt minnow]

I personally preferred previous ways of doing it but maybe that’s because the pacts were brand new

[zenith python]

I have 6 unused pact resets lol

[gaunt minnow]

That they’re not fully fleshed out yet

[gaunt minnow]

That’s just because people have mostly quit they’re just giving resets out, and they’re new so people didn’t plan properly

Not because they think it was a failure

[zenith python]

I disagree, I think people have quit because of the pacts and unless u go thorns u playing the main game at most end game content

[gaunt minnow]

Ok well just agree to disagree then

[ashen yarrow]

i havent even touched magic or thorns and im doing solo 800 toa in 15min and colosseum in 6-8min

[gaunt minnow]

But that’s main game DPS!!!!1!111

[zenith python]

With what build lol

[ashen yarrow]

zcb, max crossbow setup

[gaunt minnow]

In fairness I kinda agree the balancing was fucked and thorns/mage is too strong. But to say any other build is main game dps is just dishonest

I do wish melee was stronger personally

Actually I’ll go back on that thorns and mage isn’t too strong, melee and bows are just too weak

Those should’ve been buffed when we calced a week before the league that they’d suck

[zenith python]

Blindbag was dogshit compared to any other build even with 3 scys it was meh, that’s the only reset I used to switch off of it,

[gaunt minnow]

Thing is we had the calcs a week before saying blindbag would suck

[ashen yarrow]

magic was fine and calc was wrong, until 2 days before launch when calc was "checked" and ended up being correct

[gaunt minnow]

So if you really wanted to be overpowered you shouldn’t have picked it

[ashen yarrow]

blindbag can reach 30dps with 2 different setups, crossbows reach 45dps, air mage 45-60 dps depending weakness

[zenith python]

Who’s we? And where do you see all this info from, I don’t watch foe or whatever his name is lol

[ashen yarrow]

main issue with blindbag is people trying to run it with halberd in melee range and it loses 10 dps

[gaunt minnow]

In the leagues discord, not foe

Leagues discord knew a week before that air mage was going to be the best and jagex kept saying ‘no no you’re wrong blindbag is the best’

Shock, blindbag sucked and air mage was by far the best

There’s multiple screenshots of husky saying blindbag is the best in game in his tests which is just completely wrong

[ashen yarrow]

bloodmoon blindbag with ranged echoes is surprisingly strong still, cannot match the top dps builds either way

[gaunt minnow]

Tbh I’m confused as to how they got it so wrong

A bunch of jobless neckbeards calced it in like 2 hours that air was by far the best

[zenith python]

lol classic jagex tbh the only thing that would make blind bag chooseable for me again if it was like a 50% chance to proc or something where it’s at now is just meh

And jagex worked with the wiki to get the dps calc up and running as well btw 😂

[ashen yarrow]

most of blindbag strenght actually comes from ranged echoes, which players refused to build and called it even worse on launch

[gaunt minnow]

That’s the confusing part. Also why release everything a week early if they have no intention whatsoever to make any changes.

These aren’t slight differences either, 6 scythes blindbag was simming at 30 dps and air mage with no megas and a few prayer items was 50-55

Compared to last league where 2t scythe was also 50 dps

[zenith python]

Well it’s a max of 3 scys in invent and using one for 2 hit splats, the 3rd one didn’t even count for blind bag opp

[gaunt minnow]

They just really messed up with the numbers this time but hopefully they fix it for next league

[ashen yarrow]

even the 2nd hitsplat on scythe wont count towards blindbag

each attack only had 1 chance to proc blindbag regardless of hitsplats

[zenith python]

I’m pretty sure the 2nd one did or there would be no point to use scy it would just be boppers and 2 hitting weapons

Pretty sure I seen a mod confirm that

[ashen yarrow]

boppers are actually the strongest setup for blind

[zenith python]

And that’s a whole dif topic lol it’s like they just said the best weapons in the game yeah your not gonna wanna use them

[gaunt minnow]

I think they said that scythe specifically only counted for 1 blindbag trigger

Cba to find it now but husky specifically said scythe

[zenith python]

I could be wrong but I swore they said it was 2 like and 1 is just crazy like why is that not 3 chances lol

[gaunt minnow]

Yeah I do think if it was 3 blindbba would’ve been much more competitive

[zenith python]

If it was 3 chances with scy then it would be up there with the other setups

And then maybe jagex saying blind bag would be bis would have been true lol

It is what it is, I got my d cup and points, back to main game iron grinding 😂

[ashen yarrow]

Blindbag is triggered once PER ATTACK, not per hitsplat. So scythe can trigger it once only

#1163395763146068008 message

[zenith python]

lol that’s crazy and no wonder it sucked ass

[ashen yarrow]

The interaction that was not covered in the calculator is that whenever a two-handed multi-hit weapon attacks and triggers ranged echoes, the maximum hit is being applied to all echoes that trigger and not the reduced multi-hit values. So for example, if your Infernal Tecpatl hits a 10-10 (20 max hit) and both hits trigger a ranged echo, these echoes actually have max hits of 20 each and not 10. This should, to the best of my knowledge, be the case for all two-handed multi-hit weapons including the scythe (although the scythes max hit is equal to it's biggest max hit, not the total of all 3, scythe code is it's own thing)

scythe also worst for ranged echoes

oh wait echoes might work fine on scythe

blindbag procs once per attack, ranged echoes proc every hitsplat and each echo max hit is weapons total max hit not the split max hit

[gleaming karma]

Please, stop doing temporary game modes.

Please.

[gaunt minnow]

But people like them?

Why do you get to decide

[minor whale]

They're not going to just forego temp gamemodes when it's free money for them
But they do absolutely need to space them out better and focus on main game for a long while

[analog crow]

Life hack: you don't have to play the temp mode

[scenic ibex]

Kinda hard to tell if it isn't him sweating it out legitimately (something kin to tic manipulation, mele spec transfer training, or cox chinning) or blatant abuse (what we saw with trawling xp, soulwars imbue refunds, quest xp reward dupes). The xp/h is being played down as you can get it much much higher if you have points to set it up and enough alts/ coordination (from the info released so far). I heard he was able to get a single hour even higher than this 68k xp/h over 6h photo. A detailed video showing the methods used would help clear the air. Afaik 2 or 3 of the rolled back accounts had videos made show casing the method. All accs are limited accounts in the same communities or friend groups as rendi (this is what makes the roll back feel more targeted). Rendi has had a weird past with jagex but after the dev blog accusing rendi of crashing worlds and his original accs getting banned rendi had taken some kind of action to be put into a 5 year NDA with jagex to not explain the details of how that drama all panned out. We never got the NDA description video mentioned back then but after that period rendi was able to keep all his bugged or exploited accs and achievements and those methods were passes around in small groups and the accs who benefited from them still exist to this day with 0 consequences until recently. It is obvious there is bad blood between the the 2 groups (jagex and rendi or his peers). For all the things that have been achieved on rendis acc for this to be what they rolled back is insane imo, the defender thing makes sense but is also crazy compared to hisnother achievements. Especially if the slayer is not blatant abuse and is something any account that is equivalent to his could recreate without blatant abuse (won't know that 100% until a video drops). Many of his other achievements are not possible on accounts that are identical to his anymore and they allow him to directly benefit or have an upper hand over things like hs so it is strange to see mods now claim action is for game health when previously they have never cared about game health on the hs or equality in those limited communities.

[restive storm]

Just pls update the game man

[gaunt minnow]

Wym update the game we just got sailing

[meager flame]

No thank you I’ll take personal beef for irrelevant account records instead

[restive storm]

“Just”

https://tenor.com/view/jimmy-butler-jimmy-butler-paper-confused-gif-14478007832172093541

[scenic ibex]

The cball smithing update goes hard.

[restive storm]

Wouldn’t really know tbh

[scenic ibex]

Pvp needs some update love

[restive storm]

No point to do ship combat

[meager flame]

It’s pretty ass tbf lol

The combat and the smithing still

Wouldn’t be caught dead with either unless jagex hard requires it one day

I went to finish my max trawler yesterday and got a full refresher on how bad ship combat was

Npcs literally can’t do damage to me

It’s slow and clunky

Looting is atrocious takes forever even with updates

Etc

In contention for worst content in the game

[golden sigil]

I like just sailing around and finding stuff
As well as racing around the trials
I think there are worse skill releases to be had

[meager flame]

I don’t mean the whole skill I just mean the combat

It’s bad enough that I’m still kind of stunned they released it

Idk how to even accurately describe it it’s like if you took super simple osrs combat like afking a black demon

And then just introduced delays to everything in the process

[restive storm]

I disagree - although I guess my knowledge ends at dungeoneering pre EOC, but failing I mean sailing def worst one I’ve experienced

[meager flame]

It just flat out sucks it’s crazy

[scenic ibex]

They started to messed up ship combat when they made unpolled changes to how ship facilities where polled to work originally. It has all been downhill since then imo.

[scenic ibex]

Dung was more well received overall in pre eoc imo than sailing has been now overall

[restive storm]

Yeah agreed, that was the last one I played thru and it was aight

It also had like actual useful items lol

So there was a reason to do it

[meager flame]

It’s wild that I’m saying this because back then I didn’t like dungeoneering

But I do think I would’ve rather had that skill

I think it fits modern players better

[gaunt minnow]

Dung was always fun people just love to hate on things

[scenic ibex]

Most the rewards from dung basically exist in osrs now just named different and from other areas in game.

[restive storm]

Yeah definitely

[meager flame]

Well it’s mostly because back then people were different

[restive storm]

More of a shot at there being no actual rewards from sailing

[gaunt minnow]

Only criticism I have is that it should t have been a skill as such

[meager flame]

Like I didn’t want to actively play the game to skill me and everyone else just basically played among us to afk the most

In the dg runs

But today it’s different I would like content where you go fast then fight boss like cg

Either solo or in a group

[dawn jackal]

i guess the rewards from sailing are area unlocks

[meager flame]

They are but

[gaunt minnow]

Area unlocks to do what there

[meager flame]

They didn’t include that yet

[ashen yarrow]

areas, new training methods, new resources

[dawn jackal]

yea you can argue the usefulness of the areas

[gaunt minnow]

Woodcut some random ass log to make your boat faster so you can ge to a useless area quicker

Wooo

[dawn jackal]

but like unlocking the ironwood area is useful for ppl for example

[gaunt minnow]

Obviously there will be some more useful rewards from sailing in the future

[meager flame]

Ya they just didn’t put in any compelling end game at all

[gaunt minnow]

But it does feel very pointlesss rn

[meager flame]

I think their approach is just too unbalanced

They can’t provide only low end everything and then dip until who knows when

Almost every good skill release came with at least one thing to really chase

[ashen yarrow]

where is mining end game at

[meager flame]

Mining rune at the time was insane

[gaunt minnow]

I’d say mining has more value than smithing

[dawn jackal]

gatherers are fucked for rewards now but when released they were useful

[meager flame]

Nah back when they were relatively new

They were actually good

[gaunt minnow]

Idt smithing has ever been good

[dawn jackal]

smithing for example i forgot the name of the individual but they got 90+ smithing they had a hold on the market of the game

[ashen yarrow]

sailing resources were also good when sailing released

[meager flame]

Can’t judge their initial release by today’s standards that wasn’t the game then

Yeah and we see how that lasted

That was just the rush

[dawn jackal]

bluerose or w/e their ign was

[meager flame]

Things like mining rune even though it’s a bad example spanned multiple versions of the game

[dawn jackal]

yea and cutting magics was important at a time in the game

so idk

[ashen yarrow]

yep since everyone was not power lvling like now days

[meager flame]

Ya you could do that for years

I’d say a better example would be like

[dawn jackal]

nowadays we have a lotta factors that make gatherers useless outside of capes

[meager flame]

The abyssal whip

They clearly had much more to add on with slayer over time

[dawn jackal]

games been out 100 years, monsters shit out supplies, and the resources aren't end game anymore

[meager flame]

But you had something really cool to chase from the start

[dawn jackal]

agreed with there being a lack of game wide value to sailing

[scenic ibex]

On *near release i think some rune items could only be made with smithing yea?

[dawn jackal]

most of them yea

[ashen yarrow]

on release you could not even make rune

[meager flame]

ya some of the old old old skills came in smaller pieces because they're basically when the entire game was being created

[dawn jackal]

https://youtu.be/V41ngUrC4Co?si=k0Tj1RX7VviFr4eN

this is a really dramatic video but it outlines some of the history of smithing if you are curious

[meager flame]

im talking more about the like

[dawn jackal]

and the importance of the skill early in the games history

[meager flame]

basically skills that got added to rs2 and beyond

that you could/should actually compare to releases

[gaunt minnow]

This is why I don’t really like them adding new skills, the skills we already have are mostly usless

Would much rather those get fleshed out but that’s not as marketable as adding a big new skill

[dawn jackal]

i agree with no real need to add more skills

[meager flame]

summoning and dungeoneering are two other skills that had a better release

[scenic ibex]

A few months after but early rs is the point I'm making. Smithing and minning were viable end game at one point in rs history

[dawn jackal]

but also sailing is harmless for the most part

[meager flame]

just because they both had items for any player

[dawn jackal]

unlike summoning for example

which really warped the rest of the game

[meager flame]

sailing they really fixated on the idea of some guy thats like level 80 combat and might want to dip into the skill

with the entire approach

[gaunt minnow]

Yeah summoning and dung added huge power creep

Especially summoning

[meager flame]

so when modern players met the skill

a lot of us just instantly hit 99

[dawn jackal]

i do find it funny you can loosely replicate some of the more broken stuff that released with summoning with alt accounts now

[meager flame]

and there wasn't really anything for us to do immediately lol

like

we just put up numbers to put them there on the screen

for the max cape

[ashen yarrow]

none of the gathering methods they come up will be viable end game since more than 5 people can access them

[meager flame]

it didn't add anything to really meaningfully care about

[dawn jackal]

sailing does seem destined to just be a key to open locks for its history

[meager flame]

i t hink they dont really understand the old ways and how the game really worked though

which makes sense because its complicated and a lot of the jmods aren't old enough to have really been there

like with forestry

a lot of their pitch was talking about how wc used to be social etc

and personally i know how that really went because i had like 30m wc exp in 2005

and they're never getting it back

at least not with what they tried to do

[analog crow]

People calling out sapling orders are already up there in terms of social skilling let’s be honest

[meager flame]

ya but its not even social

like

sure people interacted but they're not having an actual conversation they dont really know each other

[analog crow]

The bar is on the floor is all I’m saying

[dawn jackal]

i'd wager people are equally social playing the game now

it's just not done through in game chat

[meager flame]

its just 9000 guys ragebaiting about trump or whatever or silently chopping in the location

[ashen yarrow]

people putting up redemption to show which root to chop for the mobile players

[analog crow]

Lmao

[meager flame]

its funny but like

[analog crow]

Yeah the ppl eager to talk aren’t ppl you want to talk to usually

[meager flame]

they're basically tripping the way you get skilling back and social the way it was back in the day

is to just make skilling something worth doing so that on every world theres just 4-5 people in the area doing it

and they naturally start to speak to each other

and see each other each day if they play on the same world which a lot of people still do

[dawn jackal]

that does run head first into the issue of bots though

[meager flame]

they'll never get it by recreating wintertodt chat

[ashen yarrow]

competing for resources is not something that brings good communication between players

[dawn jackal]

if you can pull good money from clicking chop tree you're gonna have a losing battle with bot accounts

[meager flame]

ya im just saying that's how the social situation unfolded

you just put people together in a setting that isn't hundreds of them together

its just the same few people and it turns into a whole server community over time

because you'll just keep seeing each other at various content

[dawn jackal]

but things like small team gotr and the mining activity that's not zalcano and not blast mine are good examples of social skilling

[meager flame]

like

every time jagex makes bosses instanced or gets everyone to hop to a particular world to do certain skills

they're killing that kind of interaction

and its not even all bad but that's why its dead today

[analog crow]

Instanced bosses are necessary though

The alternative is moons style

Or loot share

[dawn jackal]

i think it's just a losing battle to try and have social skilling or hell even profitable skilling

[gaunt minnow]

I think for the first 2/3 years of my iron I just straight up had my p chat off

Had no interest in being called a bot while I was skilling

[dawn jackal]

the game just functions best when skilling is good downtime activity that is used to unlock bosses or quests

and you can throw the sickos a bone and have some more active skilling methods weaved in

[meager flame]

its just crazy to me how much of a difference it makes

like back in the day i played on world 41 before they removed it and lol everyone knew everyone it was wild

[gaunt minnow]

Tbh that’s what I liked about wow

Before they added flying mounts

You’d be walking around and you’d see people you knew and would talk to and pvp with

[meager flame]

its fun too because of everything that happens after it becomes like that

[dawn jackal]

there's still some small communities like that, w365 for f2p is an dxample

[meager flame]

like when people start drama with each other everyone knows about it and a bunch of people end up getting involved its hilarious

[dawn jackal]

just that people chat on discord

same fun drama and interactions you are describing

[true talon]

Please buff CM's either more points for completing time, reduced scroll chance. literally anything to make them worth doing......

[gaunt minnow]

Yes yes make the most popular content in the game even better!

Great idea

Meanwhile leave half the content in the game no one does to rot

[dawn jackal]

the amount of people upset about the delay in gull CAs dropping was an eye opener for me

[gaunt minnow]

People gonna complain about literally anything

See me complaining about people complaining right now

[true talon]

not really its better pph to do like a 1+2 full scale

or mega scales

CM's are not that good

[stoic oracle]

Tekton still broken after ydays update it seems
status page mentions nothing

[gaunt minnow]

Who cares?

[chrome lantern]

I hate how people complain about people complaining

[gaunt minnow]

People are literally doing thousands of CMs every day

Why are we changing them

[chrome lantern]

:^)

[gaunt minnow]

Why don’t we change content that literally no one interacts with

And leave the popular content alone

[true talon]

why cant we do both?

[gaunt minnow]

Jagex can barely release a cow boss in 6 months

How you think they got the time to change cox

[true talon]

what lol reduced scrolls is already in leagues

[gaunt minnow]

You’re still not understanding

Why would they be changing content that is very very popular

Literally the main thing people do

Whe they could use the resources to change something that no one does

It’s illogical

Add something new or update dead content > minor tweaks to existing popular content

[chrome lantern]

I don’t think CMs are nearly as popular as you think they are

[gaunt minnow]

They definitely are

Very popular

Compared to trouble brewing

[chrome lantern]

That seems like a very weird standard

You should be comparing it to the other raids and to the base raid, not to clogger content

[hollow pumice]

it's like a 10 second clip with no real explanation

[gaunt minnow]

Disagree

[chrome lantern]

Like I wouldn’t say HMT is super popular either

[dawn jackal]

i believe it's ok for some content to die

[gaunt minnow]

So we should be changing hmt?

[chrome lantern]

I wouldn’t say 500s are popular

[gaunt minnow]

XD

Where are you going with this

[true talon]

i would hope raid content is more popular than some niche garbage lol

[chrome lantern]

I do think HMT should be changed in some ways considering that the vast majority of people will only ever get anywhere near it for kits and then never again, if you bring it up

[minor whale]

He also was killing Tzhaar
Which isn't even a possible task for level 3s

So the extent of his bug abuse is a bit more than he lets on

[gaunt minnow]

Making things accessible turns into what we have with Toa

Content no one end game wants to touch

[hollow pumice]

isn't it possible since he has fire cape

[hard axle]

waiting for small layout in regular cox to be 5 rooms only, put 6 room layouts with large layouts

[chrome lantern]

I haven’t done enough HMT personally to say how it should be changed but it should be concerning that even the top end of players don’t actually usually do HMT for enjoyment

Because they cba

[gaunt minnow]

I don’t think you have any idea what end game wants to do

[minor whale]

Tzhaar as a task aren't assignable by any masters accessible by a level e

3*

[gaunt minnow]

If you think they don’t wanna pot hmt

In fact hmt and cm is pretty much all anyone in my clan looks for

[hard axle]

2k hmt here

shit is ass

[chrome lantern]

The vast majority of endgame players I know, including people that ran in Oblivion, hated HMT and only did it for cosmetics

[hard axle]

let me explain

[hollow pumice]

that's some partner slayer jank innit

[gaunt minnow]

We’ve had totallly different experiences then

[chrome lantern]

There are people that like it, sure

But it’s far from the majority of people that can reliably do the content

[gaunt minnow]

Most end game players I know love hmt

[minor whale]

Chaeldar, Nieve, Duradel are the only masters and they have combat requirements or 99 requirement

So he absolutely was bug abusing

To be able to even get that as a task

[chrome lantern]

So overall to me that just indicates that even people that can do it well don’t typically prefer the more challenging version

[hollow pumice]

iirc you can punch up with partner slayer as long as you meet the 15 available task req

[dawn jackal]

is this a problem

i'm not sure it is

[gaunt minnow]

That’s your perspective and not my reality at all

So we’ll agree to disagree

[hollow pumice]

idk how he got cave kraken though that should have been fully impossible

[chrome lantern]

I would say it depends but overall in this specific case yes. For something like Awakened Leviathan I don’t think even if orbs didn’t exist that most people would choose to grind that

[hard axle]

The problem with HMT is that the moment u are done with it, you have ZERO reason to go back.

The higher purple drop rate is a lie because the moment you die 2 or more times as a team, ur drop rate is not only worse than normal tob from purely a drop rate perspective, but also slower completion time per run. And deaths are normal because HMT has more mechanics that can send you to the shadow realm.

The way you fix it is to make HMT more rewarding or just not count deaths towards purple rate, which gives you an incentive to pot it after kit/dust.

[minor whale]

He shouldn't have been able to get Tzhaar at all

[hard axle]

And the fact that HMT is by default slower than normal tob, which eats into the purple per hour if you want to calc it, even if deathless

[dawn jackal]

not arguing here just trying to get more information as i don't really participate in end game pvm - what is the difference with hmt vs the awakened fights (orbs aside)

[gaunt minnow]

I personally think the only raid that could use some rework is Toa because it’s so incredibly boring and they focused too much on accessibility

[hard axle]

oh boy, don't get it started about orbs

[hard axle]

toa is a problem of its own making

[dawn jackal]

yea orbs are ass no need to go into that

[hard axle]

yes

[gaunt minnow]

But overall I think all the raids are in a good enough spot

[hollow pumice]

oh ic

[gaunt minnow]

That they don’t need to be changed

[hollow pumice]

i could have sworn that was bugged

[true talon]

wrong, chambers is just as accessible as toa

[gaunt minnow]

That’s a flat out lie

[true talon]

how so?

[hollow pumice]

we already got a rework and it killed the content

[gaunt minnow]

Chambers you literally have to be taught

[hollow pumice]

leave it alone

[gaunt minnow]

Toa you can go in solo and complete the raid

[obsidian venture]

Hmt is pdf content in endgame mate. Legit most folks potting it are absolute dogshit

[dawn jackal]

i would say that you are not giving any credit to the benefits of toa being accessible (not that you're wrong about issues caused by it)

[hollow pumice]

that's a little disingenuous

fully blind toa is hardee than cox

[hard axle]

The problem with toa is that it was entirely designed with 5 + B = 10 mentality.

There is very little to no flexibility in the mechanics - If you do it wrong, you eat a 40.

Cox and tob are not like that for majority of their mechanics.

[gaunt minnow]

I think there’s very little benefit to a raid being accessible

[meager flame]

fully blind toa is not harder than cox

[hollow pumice]

you can throw urself at olm infinite times are brute force a kc

[meager flame]

because toa visually shows you what to do

you dont even need guides you just need eyes

[gaunt minnow]

Facts

[dawn jackal]

i'm sure you've answered infinity questions from like 1100 total accounts asking what bosses they can do if you've been in this discord for any amount of time

[hard axle]

the average players don't have that

[obsidian venture]

Toa is very visual yes

[dawn merlin]

u can brute force cox with 0 mechs

[gaunt minnow]

Look at my messages in we do raids lol it’s like 10k+

[minor whale]

ToA is very visual with 0 hidden mechanics or optimization outside of hit boss harder

[dawn jackal]

having a raid that is accessible for the newer players is valuable for player retention no doubt

[true talon]

? you can go die to olm endlessly an make unlimited supplies......

[meager flame]

tbh i think the visual thing is good but it does mean that its easier to understand and execute

its not like cox where stuff is just happening for seemingly no reason

[obsidian venture]

Most good tobbers hate hmt as well btw

[gaunt minnow]

Bro go put a new player in cox and a new player in Toa and give them a timer to see who ends the raid first

[hollow pumice]

warden p1/p2/p4 or akkha fully blind throws ppl off, & you have to restart from full boss hp whenever u die

[gaunt minnow]

I can bet my life savings it’s Toa

[obsidian venture]

Yeah if doing low invo

[hollow pumice]

100% hardee than brute forcing olm

[obsidian venture]

But what’s the standard

Youd have to send them blind on a 300 at the minimum if comparing

[meager flame]

sure but brute forcing olm isn't a success

thats a failure

[true talon]

you can brute force olm, you cant brute force toa

[obsidian venture]

But no one bothers to test something so useless

[meager flame]

it means you got 0 points and left sad

[gaunt minnow]

That’s not how most people learn Toa

They’ll learn at 0 invo with maybe a buddy or a guide then work up slowly

[chrome lantern]

Like I said it’s more situational and not really even tied to “awakened boss” in general. I picked Leviathan because while it is more challenging content, it takes a LOT longer using traditional methods to kill it, even considering increased unique rates from awakened bosses, and the fact that the final enrage is a massive intensity and difficulty spike that makes it way less consistent to clear easily, consume way more supplies for mistakes or just kills you, and overall just is of such an intensity that it would likely lead to “cba” grinding it out for actual drops. On the other hand, as mentioned above, there’s not really a reason to do HMT after finishing the cosmetics.

This kinda started with tangenting from talking about Leagues CM scroll distribution, and overall I think that HMT is probably, relative to the other raids, in a good spot for its challenging mode, but I do think there are things that could be improved about the larger context of the content

[true talon]

A blind player probably wont make it past zebak

[gaunt minnow]

Not jump into a 300 and just brute force it

[obsidian venture]

Yes but if comparing it to solo cox

Which again you learn in teams first

[hollow pumice]

you get the kc

[meager flame]

so what though

[hollow pumice]

cox has no fail state since u can just reprep

[obsidian venture]

You learn team cox and then transition into solos

Toa you can insta solo

[hollow pumice]

toa you can run out of supplies and have the raid be impossible to complete

[gaunt minnow]

Doesn’t that say enough about how much more accessible Toa is?

[true talon]

or you die due to miss clicking redemption and 1 star logout XD

[gaunt minnow]

You literally can learn it solo

[obsidian venture]

If doing low invos, death invos won’t be on tbf

[gaunt minnow]

How many people learn cox blind solo

[hollow pumice]

raw accessibility for brute forcing a blind kc cox is easier

[dawn jackal]

i would argue it's very valuable for the game to have TOA be the way it is with accessibility

[obsidian venture]

Yes

[dawn merlin]

theyre all accessible for people that actually want to learn

[gaunt minnow]

That’s just disingenuous

[hollow pumice]

true

[obsidian venture]

The whole point is that it is accessible

[gaunt minnow]

Not even remotely true

[hollow pumice]

objectively just true

[dawn jackal]

yea but you must understand the new player just wants to pot shit with their friends right

[dawn merlin]

we got entry mode tob but i dont really see people grinding that, they want carry in normal mode

then complain its ahrd to find teams

[obsidian venture]

Due to no purples. Toa should have followed suit

[gaunt minnow]

I’d love to see how long it would take a new player to brute force solo cox vs solo Toa

I bet cox would be literal days

[hollow pumice]

?

[obsidian venture]

On avg people learn solo toa first

[hollow pumice]

what do you think happens in cox bruh

😭

[obsidian venture]

Idk what this discussion is trying to push but it seems very ie

But tryna gauge who brute forces what is pointless

[gaunt minnow]

He’s saying cox is just as accessible as Toa

Which is just a flat out lie

[obsidian venture]

Sure you can send it but on avg you will get a toa kc first

[gaunt minnow]

Considering most people have to be literally taught cox

[hollow pumice]

The worst thing that happens in a blind cox is u reset tekton or heal olm hand

[dawn jackal]

why would your target be one kc

in this discussion

i think that's the issue

[obsidian venture]

Progression wise

[true talon]

only raid not accessible is tob, because it requires a team (if you dont include entry mode)

[hollow pumice]

people get taught toa too

[obsidian venture]

Sure

[gaunt minnow]

Sorry but this is a 2d brain moment

[dawn jackal]

of course the mechanics of cox make it so you can just send your corpse 200 times and get a kc

[gaunt minnow]

0 critical thinking about the new player experience at all

[hollow pumice]

video vs live teacher doesn't matter ur still being taught

[obsidian venture]

But more folks send toa before cox

[dawn jackal]

but there's no point in discussing that

[gaunt minnow]

Assuming a new player would even get far enough through olm for the melee hand to heal

[obsidian venture]

It’s just somewhat the natural prog

Toa into whatever the fuck else

[hollow pumice]

I think this is just influenced by the raid's popularity no?

[dawn jackal]

almost everyone goes into toa to learn first

for raid prog

[hollow pumice]

everyone calls it the beginner raid

[obsidian venture]

And accessibility

Yes

The whole point is to draw newer pvmers

[dawn jackal]

its community driven and much more accessible content

[hollow pumice]

how would they not

[dawn jackal]

if you ask in here what raid to do first one loser will respond tob then everyone will say toa

[obsidian venture]

So you will get a toa kc on avg faster than you would with a random ass solo cox

[gaunt minnow]

You’re just vastly overestimating the understanding of cox for a new player

It would take them an hour + just to figure out Tekton

[obsidian venture]

Well if they’re going to be taught then it doesn’t matter. But if it’s for solo, toa will be the best option

[hollow pumice]

how stupid do you think people are

[obsidian venture]

Very

[hollow pumice]

also tekton isn't mandatory

[dawn jackal]

people are really stupid

[obsidian venture]

Cmon now

[gaunt minnow]

Very stupid

[true talon]

hahaha

[obsidian venture]

This playerbase is fucking cooked

[gaunt minnow]

You thinks brand new player would know that?

[dawn jackal]

never under estimate someone's ability to be stupid

[gaunt minnow]

Dude are you just here for an argument or can you think critically?

[true talon]

Two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity

[stoic oracle]

speaking of tekotn, are they aware of tekton bug atm since ydays update?

[dawn jackal]

this whole conversation really is just an excuse for an argument to be fair to all involved

[hollow pumice]

a brand new player is going to take whatever scout they get, it could be vasa/vang or shaman/mystic

[dawn jackal]

ain't no one is grabbing a wow player hooking them up with an acct and sending them into toa and cox

[hollow pumice]

cox has 0 failstate vs toa u can actually be forced to reset

[gaunt minnow]

I wanna watch that lol

[hollow pumice]

didn't the wow streamers brute force a cox before a toa

[dawn jackal]

i would too

i love the blind player content out there it's fascinating

and provides great insight to how a new player interacts with the game

[gaunt minnow]

When even was the first fully solo cox? Probably not for like a week right

Whereas people were soloing Toa day 1

[dawn jackal]

not sure, i would believe you but again why is the goal post in this conversation one kc

it should be the ability to reliably complete the raid

[meager flame]

tbf you dont even need to like theorize about wow players and cox or whatever

[dawn jackal]

which TOA just totally clears cox everyone should agree

[meager flame]

i was a much better wow raider than any of those streamers that i know of before i raided on osrs lol

its just gamers in general will figure it out and play the game

i even did cox with other wow raiders like me at the time lmao

we didn't brute force it exactly but we did do cox as like

god intended

no head turning intentionally to skip or whatever

you can figure it out but its pretty brutal compared to doing the real strats

[hollow pumice]

the initial statement was u can go into toa blind and get the kc, vs needing to be taught for cox

[dawn jackal]

laughing at god up there on their chair just malding at the skips people do for cox

[obsidian venture]

The avg player learning solo cox, even with infinite supplies, generally will ragequit at olm because it’s extremely cancer at first, especially if you don’t understand what’s happening. This is common when talking to folks that rush solo cox.

Toa on the other hand is better off for a solo player as it’s visually easy to understand. Folks on avg are able to complete a solo Toa well before stepping into cox.

[meager flame]

people underestimate how scary olm actually is if you aren't skipping and turning the head

he puts up numbers on your hp bar

[dawn jackal]

sure i just think it's kinda a dead end conversation due to as you've stated the reset mechanics in the raid

so i don't see value in the discussion

[vivid ruin]

Tbf p2 warden is fairly intimidating at first as well

[obsidian venture]

For sure

[vivid ruin]

P2*

[obsidian venture]

But it’s not as much as what olm is doing to you

There isn’t an argument here

[vivid ruin]

True

[obsidian venture]

Literally chat with learners daily

And folks get stage 4 kank when bum rushing solo olm

Whereas solo toa may have some mishaps but it’s doable

[meager flame]

ya i remember my first cox ever it was actually solo where i just died to olm trying to figure out anything lol

it did die eventually because the hp doesn't reset but like

it was pretty crazy lol

[vivid ruin]

100 deaths to kill olm once

[dawn jackal]

i like that jagex attempted to make a more beginner raid with scalable difficulty that's a good concept imo (for one single raid in the game not every raid) but the execution didn't really land

[meager flame]

tbh i think toa executed perfectly and then they over developed it

like

[dawn jackal]

so toa being the easy raid to funnel newer players into is cool and good

[meager flame]

if they had just given the standard 350 as like the idk

not intro experience

and left it there

[obsidian venture]

Toa is just shit at the top end is all

[dawn merlin]

i just think its abit long as a new raider

[meager flame]

probably excellently recieved

[obsidian venture]

Barely changes from 150-400

[meager flame]

its just when we all do our 500+ and we realize that it sucks at that point

but we can do it and the loot chance it worth it

we just punish ourselves with bad content at that point

less would've been more with toa basically

[dawn jackal]

i wouldn't want any future raid to be scalable

just set a difficulty and that's what it is it's fine for raids to be harder or easier than others

[meager flame]

i think set difficulty has really big benefits too because its like

the same thing each time so you can work out new ways to do it faster

and you create difficulty

rather than the hp just going up

[dawn jackal]

yea for sure

i bet jagex would state they wish they had static difficulty on toa at this point

[minor whale]

It is WAY too long for a raid at the "base" level

And just goes up as you go

[dawn jackal]

given all the challenges with the invo system

[austere mulch]

accessibility is a bottle neck for difficulty and I just hope they really take that into account raid waid 4

[minor whale]

They've said Raids 4 will be their hardest raid yet so I'm hopeful they aren't gonna fuck it

It'll be a boss rush style

So ToB-like

[dawn jackal]

tob 2 babeeeeee

[minor whale]

I personally can't wait for Justiciar 2

It's Justiciar but green

[dawn jackal]

i think jagex gets the benefit of the doubt at this point designing pvm

[austere mulch]

doom was also supposed to be enrage boss so theres some skepticism there

[dawn jackal]

some of the side stuff has flopped hard like invos orbs contracts

but the fights themselves are very high quality

so i'm excited for raids 4

[meager flame]

tbh they're making some really questionable plays with raids 4 already

like how they want the raid to reset on wipe but only for x amount of time

and then they want to change it

like

i feel like that requires some level of dissonance they either think its better one way or the other but they're pandering

thus doing both

i dont really like seeing logic like that

[dawn jackal]

they just want two days of streams right?

or am i misinterpreting

[meager flame]

yeah but that imo is crazy

[dawn jackal]

idk that's kinda harmless

[austere mulch]

the entry mode concept where you can choose the boss fight is good at least

[meager flame]

they're sacrificing a bunch of people's first impression for stream content when they clearly think its actually better to not be that way for most people

i think the motivation there is kinda messed up and probably leaks into their game design

[dawn jackal]

i don't see an issue with advertising the first clear race

[austere mulch]

ive got my reserves because afaik its being led by the same dev(s) that spearheaded hmt, which was a bust, toa - also a bust if you ask around the end game community, yama contracts/orbs, and colo invos

[meager flame]

like regardless of the actual direction they choose

[dawn jackal]

everyone has fun watching release day pvm content

[austere mulch]

there are some good highlights from those pieces of content too ofc, but id say its still 50/50 atp

[meager flame]

i just want to see them be consistent and really try to make it the best it can be from their pov

[dawn jackal]

and after a week no one will care it was changed

[meager flame]

instead of trying to bend in every direction

[dawn jackal]

it's such a small concession though who cares

[meager flame]

yeah but its also just the smallest amount of info that we even have

and we already see them doing it

[dawn jackal]

people really like the world first race stuff

[meager flame]

it just tells me they maybe haven't learned from their more recent adventures lol

[agile cipher]

hopefully they wont ruin it again by buffing drop rates because a streamer went 3 300s dry

[meager flame]

a lot of their more recent failings when it comes to bosses or raids are rooted in their desperation to appeal to everyone at once

[obsidian venture]

Then not doing a blanket nerf is the biggest miss

Well whole other topic

Nerfed endgame folks

Gave power for Billybobs to do a faster raid with the qol changes with basically the same rates. But it did lead to an increased gp/hr

[dawn jackal]

i don't see how making the world first race better by resetting the raid is catering to everyone

[meager flame]

its not its an example of them having a clear idea of how the raid should work for most of their players but also trying to do backflips for stream content at the same time

[dawn jackal]

backflips is a bit dramatic isn't it

[meager flame]

it doesn't always have to be between those two opposing views on how the content should work

its just the fact that jagex is trying to do both yet again

even though they keep tripping when presented with those situations

[dawn jackal]

i think in this instance it's totally fine

and honestly a good solution

[meager flame]

it tells me that they're probably going to try and once again

[obsidian venture]

They need to simply not cater stuff to all, and they’ll have much more successful pieces of content

[meager flame]

appeal to everyone and probably just brick content for some group out there in the process

no idea who will be the loser this time its just

they keep doing it

[dawn jackal]

largely speaking i agree that catering content to the larger playerbase leads to poor design

[obsidian venture]

Ideally you appeal to endgame as it’s good to have folks progress but alas playerbase would cry

[dawn jackal]

i don't see how a few days of raid resets to make the world first clear race more compelling is poor design

[analog crow]

Hot take
Design content for players, not streamers

[meager flame]

i think ideally for raids

you would just have a normal mode raid aimed at, well, normal players and then a hard mode or challenge mode whatever they want to call it

[dawn jackal]

this stinks of complaining for complaining sake to me

[meager flame]

thats actually well designed and probably in another update

meant for the really hardcore players

and make it actually worth doing

[obsidian venture]

Streamers are more in tune with players tbf

[dawn jackal]

i don't think hard modes are great overall

[obsidian venture]

Cms are fine

[meager flame]

i think they're good when executed well

[dawn jackal]

it either makes sense to do the hard modes stuff or not

[obsidian venture]

Other stuff is pure ass

[meager flame]

the problem is they keep messing it up imo

[dawn jackal]

and then that's what people do

[obsidian venture]

Hmt and high invo toa

[meager flame]

like hmt is just worse than regular tob

that isn't even right

[obsidian venture]

Cms is very consistent and is rewarding. Only shit thing is the rates for scrolls

[austere mulch]

hmt was the start of the downfall

[obsidian venture]

Hmt is what can kill you more and higher invo toa is generally a waste of time (now) for “effort”

[austere mulch]

its hard to find nice things to say about hmt other than that it exists and that maiden blood mechanics are better than reg

[obsidian venture]

545s used to be chill

Even 500 s

Now 500s are with qp

So you rather just go lower

[meager flame]

i think they just viewed hmt as like a cheap update

[obsidian venture]

A lot of shit tobbers like hmt

[meager flame]

if you look at it they kinda just said like

how do we make this kill people and mess up their strats without adding much substance

and it dropped like it is

[obsidian venture]

So when folks say they have endgame friends who like hmt, it’s hard to nod my head to that

Hmt is like the hantavirus

[meager flame]

where really i think a hard mode needs more budget and effort put into it

like i want to see them reimagine the boss for real rather than like

add one little thing to the existing boss

[austere mulch]

they asked sanity and oblv for ideas and took in 0 of them

for hmt lol

[obsidian venture]

How do you make a raid longer, boring and more kank is what hmt is

[meager flame]

like the echo bosses compared to their normal counterparts are a good example

thats what hard mode should do imo

[obsidian venture]

Plus add in stuff that can kill you faster = “hard”

[meager flame]

very similar but also very very different

i do think osrs is getting into a sort of silly place with that lol

a lot of content now is like

[obsidian venture]

The “hard” part of hmt is finding competent players and trying to survive arbitrary room mechanics that take away value from the base raid

[meager flame]

you did it correctly good job 0 damage and if you do mess up its like

nuclear launch detected and you're just dying

i feel like that design often messes with the pace of bosses because if you're going to punish players that heavily you're probably not going to keep pressing them

[dawn jackal]

yea they don't have a lot of levers to pull but at the same time they should realize that players are incentivized to make the encounters more difficult for faster clears regardless

[meager flame]

where honestly i'd prefer if the pace of the next mechanic to go out and move away from or to was faster but mistakes didn't just insta kill you

so they could throw more at you

[dawn jackal]

more stuns and shit for failing mechanics

not dying

punish players by slowing clear time more than just saying try again

[obsidian venture]

Cms and reg tob are the best example of raids done correctly

Toa is a good example of an entry raid

[meager flame]

i honestly think cox in general was lightning in a bottle in a way like

[obsidian venture]

Now if they can scale up stuff appropriately like tob, then you have a winning concept

[meager flame]

its actually crazy how good it is solo and in a team despite it being so different

and its actually built around supporting all of those different sizes

its weird cox despite being the first attempt landed the balance of being for everyone better than any other raid

probably accidental too tbh lol

[dawn jackal]

probably because to your earlier point they weren't trying to

they just wanted to make good content

[hard axle]

cuz they designed it around team content

not around slop solo content

designing solo content is inherently limiting because you max out on 1 action per tick

even 6 jads is like

1.5 action per tick

most other content is like 1 action per 2+ ticks

that's why toa feels so slow and boring, and it has to be

[earnest vigil]

this is why pvp > pvm

[true talon]

Majority of chambers is just moving the head so it cant attack you with its god awful specials lol

everything else is illrelevent....

you get autoed once per your 3 hits or 4 hits with melee an thats about it.

[meager flame]

thats the thing though they did both with chambers like

they figured out how it would work in a team and then also made it work for a single person too portals are a good example

instead of being like toa where the mechanic just doesn't happen

they still put a random portal down for you to go run to

little stuff like that is how you get solo chambers being good

tbh idk why they even did toa like they did it

they just took the situation of like "how does this work if there aren't multiple people" and just said lol surprise it just doesn't exist

tob kinda did it badly too where instead of coming up with an alternative that kept with the design of how it was supposed to work it just didn't do anything differently at first which was also bad just in the other direction

seems kinda like their biggest enemy when it comes to all of that is just being lazy

huey is actually a good example too

instead of just scaling the prayer pillar things based on the group size they just instead decided it shouldn't work without enough people and the game sucks if you're in that situation lol

its just interesting because i dont think its bad to design it around groups i just think its bad to offer alternative sizes for the content and then not circle back and make it make sense

[restive storm]

PvP used to also be the most replayable, now since singles+ it’s basically just five different pvm situations. Multi is the only last remaining replayable content

[meager flame]

its just kind of lazy design at that point

[true talon]

Most of chambers solo mechanics is just skipping the specials that are not even relevent in teams either.

you dont actually interact with the bosses mechanics, you manipulate him to make him unable to do them lol

[hard axle]

You can repeat yourself over and over again, but even if u didnt skip specials, it would be virtually the same, just 1-2 clicks per special more.

Crystals move, lightning move, teleport meet at thumb type shit.

[hard axle]

It was the less than 1 attack per 4 ticks that made a huge difference imo.

ToA is just "do this MY way or I'll rail you with 40 damage"

[hard axle]

yup, in toa's case, it made it easier with less people, especially when it came to visual clutter

[hard axle]

But yeah, pvm capping out at 1 action per tick at the very maximum is why content gets hampered.

People think CG is hard, but you can unironically simplify it down and just do less.

[meager flame]

tbh i think they can get around that without asking people to click several times in a tick

the problem is that osrs devs seem to be continually trying to explore the depth of just clicking something accurately instead of challenging people mentally

they occasionally dip into it like with the inferno and colosseum

where figuring out how you're supposed to do it to begin with is the majority of the battle

it wouldn't be too hard to come up with competing priorities to make something mentally taxing without requiring them to have insane input accuracy its just they almost never go for it

tbh i think it would probably be pretty helpful for the boss design guys that work on osrs to all go learn a wow raid together or something like that so they get a new perspective on things like

the difficulty of coordinating between multiple people when you're trying to accomplish multiple things at once

[marsh imp]

varlamore achievement diary when?

[remote ruin]

Sometime in the next 18 months, if the kourend diary timeline is anything to go by

[idle rapids]

And? The teaching is accessible, anyone can join a WDR and get mentored, for free

They have very minimal reqs

[obsidian venture]

Sure but discussion was solved hours ago

[meager flame]

tbh next year is probably gonna be fire for osrs

we're basically repeating 2021 in some ways content cycle wise and that lead to a pretty big boom in 2022 when we finally started getting the big quests and raids etc that they were working on

[true talon]

I think sailing took a lot of dev work

kinda ruined 2025

[meager flame]

they got rolling eventually post 2021 and we got like toa dt2 and so on

[true talon]

We will have big stuff this year, esp if raids 4 is this year

[meager flame]

but mid 2021 they basically had a stream directly talking about what actually happened

sec its so similar to right now its insane

https://youtu.be/ZawSRhibvNs?t=3378

this one

basically they talk about how they probably shouldn't do seasonal modes back to back and it happened due to new hires and having to get them up to speed, delayed content and so on

and lmao

they were in the background working on a raid and big quests and so on

just like they did this year

its like a full repeat

im sorta curious if we'll get another one of these QA streams where they talk about it again

[restive storm]

They’ve gotten me too many times for me to have hope anymore

[meager flame]

i mean just basing it off of how their content cycle went previously

it seems like they take a loss one year and then come back really strong for a few years after

probably the cost of hiring and training up a bunch of new people and investing in some big updates that just take awhile to get going

it actually makes sense its just not ideal

because if you think about it before this year

they were basically repeatedly dropping large content like

varlamore or big quests and so on for a few years

[minor whale]

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/qudpahfSoe

Crazy, if you just wait then the freakouts are all completely unnecessary!

[earnest vigil]

i think the freakouts were a strong motivator for the team to try and come to an agreement rather than ignoring it indefinitely tbf

[meager flame]

at least they can admit they were a bit out of line so thats good

[idle rapids]

I wish I wouldve got a refund when they wiped my TB log

[meager flame]

its a shame it had to be like

crazy and public lol

[idle rapids]

if it wasn't, they wouldnt have done anything

[meager flame]

ya for sure

[cobalt pawn]

encountering an issue in leagues where when you leave the smoke devil dungeon. the smoke screen animation stays after you leave. Need to log out to get rid of it

[meager flame]

im pretty sure if i did what he did i'd just be 99 slayer on a level 3 and nobody would've ever known

[idle rapids]

The action theyve taken now seems appropriate tho

[idle rapids]

just disable that effect

[meager flame]

so at least he got the benefit of being well known as well as the downside

rather than just one or the other

[idle rapids]

hes already well known

I'd still like to see jagex put out some more clear guidelines in regards to BA and also what plugins can do (as gnomemonkey pointed out in his vid how so many of them break the rules jagex has in place)

[meager flame]

i still kind of think jagex did the wrong thing here in general but at least they came to some compromise

like

in my mind if its serious bug abuse to the point jagex has to do something to the players involved

its gotta be a ban

and if they didn't they need to just fix the content

[idle rapids]

its the latter imo

[meager flame]

the leniency is a big tell that it was likely something working more or less the way they coded it and wasn't some giga exploit

[true talon]

No thanks don’t touch my plugins already had wow ruin add ons

[meager flame]

and they just didn't like the results

otherwise it would be an easy ban and case closed

[austere mulch]

wonder if they refunded the 32k slayer points too

[meager flame]

also the length of time is a big indicator

because like

if its a real exploit 3 months is a hell of a lot of use of an exploit lmao

so it couldn't have been that crazy

[austere mulch]

this is about as reasonable a middle ground as they can get so thats good at least

[idle rapids]

It wasn't that crazy, the main new thing he did was getting full XP for boss kills

[austere mulch]

but fr tho, those points...

[harsh herald]

you spent a good portion of your day arguing about this and stating Jagex's stance was right for rolling back while others rightly pointed out their inconsistency and punishment was too severe. theyve now come to the same conclusion as the community lol

[minor whale]

Lol what
The community was raging that he shouldn't be rolled back at all and that it's EXACTLY THE SAME as tick manip and 1 tick flicking prayer and what about Port Khazard and what about Josh and guys it wasn't bug abuse it was just 45k/hr 😭

He's still rolled back and set to an XP level that he should have been at without the bug abuse

It's a win all around

[idle rapids]

Its a start at least

[minor whale]

Hopefully it leads to partner slayer just getting removed lmao

Since it's an awful system rife with easy to abuse bugs evidently

Especially since he was able to get assigned tasks that shouldn't even be possible to be assigned

If you don't have the right amount of tasks it should just tell you to fuck off

[idle rapids]

Well, the community has been abusing the last hit mechanic to get that 30k xp/hr rate for a while now, so I don't blame Rendi for thinking he woudlnt get in trouble 🤷‍♂️

Like they're clearly both bug abuse but sometimes bug abuse is allowed

[harsh herald]

I mean, your comment above you're trying to sound as if everyone else was wrongly making a fuss about Jagex's actions and as if you've tried to be neutral throughout until it was all concluded. But for the most part you have just defended a position that Jagex has came out and said they were wrong about, something most of the community have said for the past 24 hours lol

[idle rapids]

true

[obsidian venture]

Well it was clear bug abuse either way. Surprised they refunded what they said they would

[idle rapids]

More of a bug than hitting a monster for 0 dmg and getting credit for killing it? 🤷‍♂️

[harsh herald]

and to quote Mod Ayiza 'Our approach to actioning against bug-abuse has, as you’ve rightly pointed out, been inconsistent. [...] we believed the removal of XP and Slayer points was the right way to solve this [...] In hindsight, we feel like we got it wrong.'

[idle rapids]

Glad they've at least acknowledged the inconsitency

[harsh herald]

its a stepforward for sure

[obsidian venture]

this is fine yes

[dawn merlin]

gotta love rounding, glad they addressed it clearly and didn't put all their time to waste

[scenic ibex]

Last hit, even a 0, on npcs durring a slayer task and getting a kill that counts towards the slayer task number for that half of the slayer xp is intended. You would not get kill credit for npc drops tho, also intended.

[idle rapids]

Intended according to who though? Thats not intuitive at all that you go around hitting 0s and "slay" monsters that way. I really doubt that was the intention when adding in a bonus for the last hit.

Not saying they need to remove that slayer method (The cats out of the bag at this point) but itshows how some exploits are okay while others aren't

Also its not even as simple as hitting a 0 for the last hit and you get the exp, you literally have to time it to happen on a specific tick while damage occurs to the mob

[scenic ibex]

A hit is a hit. You can agro an npc on a 0 hit. Thats just how slayer works. Half slayer xp for most credited damage delt and half for the last hit on the npc.

[tacit pendant]

Partner slayer is sick. Were not pushing for its removal over this nothingburger drama

Whole lot more problematic systems than partner slayer in game

[scenic ibex]

Nah there are different splash slayer mechanics. You also dont have to do partner slayer to use an alt to splash slayer.

[idle rapids]

I understand thats how it works. Every glitch works because things are programmed to work the way they work. But obviously its an exploit and not the original intention of the devs, which makes it emergent gameplay, or bug abuse, depending on whatever lens you wanna look at it from

[idle rapids]

Yea I know that, never said u need a partner for it. This has been a method for a loooong time

[tacit pendant]

Nothing ayiza said feels like a bug honestly. Thats like saying dooms loot scaling is a bug because rounding

But thats like semantics n shit

[idle rapids]

Its a bug, an exploit, an oversight, whatever you wanna call it. Just ends up being semantics.

[scenic ibex]

You said specific tic on lasts hit which is only for 1 method of splash slayer.

[tacit pendant]

Its not nearly as far into bug abuse as i would have thought. Its just the natural logic of the system they created and its consitent with other systems in game. Feels more on the devs in this instance

[scenic ibex]

If it were blatant bug abuse and they ONLY got xp rolled back then they would be lucky. They exploited and unintended game mechanic that the devs should have honestly figured out like 6 years ago when this was already an issue with partner slayer. Partner slayer should have been looked more into before they released it again.

[harsh herald]

facts *on the Jagex part

[tacit pendant]

100% with ya. The "bug" in question feels like a pretty easy line of logic to follow through in qa testing

Im fairly happy with the compromise. Glad they atleast got that sorted before the weekend

[scenic ibex]

I do feel rendi used average xp/h numbers to make it look less exploited than what was happening on the the top end. Steering the narrative a bit you could say. Jagexes knee jerk reaction was over the top and I'm glad they were able to realize that atleast and everyone seems to be more on the same page now, ftmp.

[tacit pendant]

Now we just need some real updates 🙂

[scenic ibex]

Idk if this was shared anywhere here but saw this somewhere earlier

[harsh herald]

yeah i think its a good compromise all-in-all. have to somewhat applaud the gaming knowledge of those that are seemingly better than the devs / QA testers

[analog crow]

The real win is ayiza promised more upfront openness on where the line is drawn between emergent gameplay and bug abuse

[austere mulch]

would be nice if that comes to fruition but persoally not holding my breath on it

[idle rapids]

I'll remain hopeful for now, but yeah there's been a lot of undelivered promises from jagex in the past

[austere mulch]

not to say i dont think ayiza is a great guy. absolutely think he is. these things historically get brushed under the rug because how quickly they fall out of relevancy until the next big event

ppl been asking for clearer guidelines on plugins for years since they dropped the last batch, bc they are TONS of exceptions on RL that go against them, and we never got it

[idle rapids]

Ayiza seems like a good guy but that doesn't tell me he necesarilly has good opinions about the game or community

[true talon]

Lvl 3 getting more xp than normal is not relevant

[idle rapids]

Right, it was only relevant because there was a large content creator in question

If I were a content creator I couldve done the same thing when they wiped my TB log

Tedious made a post about it but that was the extent of the attention it got

[hard axle]

they wiped clogs pretty regularly

all im gonna say

[idle rapids]

Give 1 example?

[earnest vigil]

fang kit bug abuse

[hard axle]

[idle rapids]

From the post they put out sounds like they just removed the fang kit and not the clog

Anyways thats still a bit different from wiping an entire section of a collection log

[earnest vigil]

i was one of the banned, they tok my clog

[idle rapids]

Oh okay, thanks for confirming 👍

[hard axle]

[idle rapids]

Well, in the post tedious made no one could name any example of logs being wiped previously, so I'm assuming its not that common

[hard axle]

they don't say it out loud

same reason why they shadow patch some interactions

[idle rapids]

Well, in my case I didnt even use a bug to do any of that log

They just wiped it out of spite

[true talon]

Wipe everyone clog for mental health assistance

Ya gotta start over an enjoy the dopamine of every clog

[nocturne solstice]

That's what leagues is

[weary stag]

I kinda like the "turning to the fishing spot" thing it's creating great tension between me and this other fellow barb gatherer when they cross over

[raven mist]

Does this update fix the interacting issue that RuneLite devs had issues with?

[gaunt minnow]

Have we ever had the numbers for the split between normies and irons?

[velvet orchid]

Yeah same kinda sad they fixed it

[arctic falcon]

2t teaks still messed up though 🙁

[dawn jackal]

time to learn 1.5 beast

[minor whale]

Ash said before there was a poll that only irons could vote in, it received ~30% of the normal vote count

So somewhere along that metric

Not perfect but as close as data as we can get really

[gaunt minnow]

30% seems high especially because iron engagement with sailing was 20% of the overall player count

But yeah around there is a good guesstimate

Probably something like people are more likely to vote if the vote specifically impacts them or only they are allowed to vote

[ashen yarrow]

also when new content comes out most people with both main and ironman will do it on main first

[gaunt minnow]

Mm not always

I have a main and iron and always do things on the iron first

And how many people have both a high level main and high level iron subbed ready for new update s

[ashen yarrow]

yes but most people do it on main to make extremely high profit from the first few days

[gaunt minnow]

Thats a fair point but idt theres enough of those people to significantly impact those statistics

[dawn jackal]

there's about infinite people with a main and a shitty iron though

[ashen yarrow]

it does depend on how long period they were waiting for the statistic. after first month it would be balancing the numbers back to normal probably

[gaunt minnow]

Even then you’re assuming everyone will interact with sailing

Which is not the case I’d say especially for normies

All you need to go is go to the GE and see how many normies stood around chatting are 1 sailing

I’d say irons are a lot more likely on average to be open to changes and interact with new content

But it’s all anecdotal evidence and really means nothing only jagex have the numbers

[tender harness]

Mfw jagex still gives more support to a whiny ass content creator unlike the average players who are stuck dealing with claudebot support

[idle rapids]

If a butterfly had flapped its wings the community wouldve turned against Rendi and this wouldnt be a big deal

Anyways he is annoying but at least we got Jagex offering to give a more detailed bug abuse guildeline in the future

[tender harness]

Jagex offering to give a more detailed bug abuse guildeline in the future

things that will never happen

[idle rapids]

"Looking forward, we want to provide better clarity on what behaviour might result in action being taken against your account, and how we make it clearer to you what we consider bug abuse vs emergent gameplay, or fun ways to push the boundaries of the game. This will take us some time, but we’ll share more on official channels when we’re ready. "

Thats what ayiza said

[gaunt minnow]

Why has it taken this for this to happen though? Half their rules are regularly broken and not enforced

It’s laughable that account sharing is still on there

We’ve been saying this for a literal decade

Just put some clear fucking rules in place it’s not hard

[hard axle]

They're in a no win situation - Punish the content creator, which sends a stricter message, but also kill off sharing of sources of bug abuse methods down the line and creates uncertainty about what is bug abuse and what isn't

[meager flame]

Idk why they’re so up in arms about just being wrong lol

Dudes just knew game rounds down as usual and whatever dev did a bad job by leaving that as is when it wasn’t going to accomplish what they intended

Nobody went in there stacking interfaces or doing anything crazy

[chrome lantern]

The number of things Jagex has said they will “revisit soon” is staggering

[meager flame]

Just hotfix and move on

[chrome lantern]

At this point they have promises to “revisit soon” for revenants/wilderness, Chivalry/PvP, magic/shadow, bug abuse/emergent gameplay, and several other things I can’t remember off the top of my head.

I don’t want Chivalry proposal 10 to be clear

But they just keep layering on more

[idle rapids]

He was using stalls but yea its not crazy bug abuse

Just a clever exploit

[chrome lantern]

At this point it’s been well over a year since the delve proposal said they would rebalance/address shadow before making any other magic upgrades and that we would discuss it soon

[idle rapids]

What about actual customer service

We havent got that after like a decade 😭

and so many promises

[chrome lantern]

Oh sure that too

[meager flame]

The funny thing is they want to revisit it like the community needs to know

[chrome lantern]

Like I said, not all-inclusive list

[meager flame]

When really jagex themselves are like perpetually in a state of being out of line and inconsistent

They should revisit internally and actually act the same each time lol

[hard axle]

Even without clear guidelines, people know damn fucking well what's acceptable or not

800k/hr fishing xp or rerolling purples is damn well bannable range

No one would've been surprised if megascaling ended up retroactively bannable either

[meager flame]

Like we all use bugs or stalls and so on like all the time

They fix them but we never get banned

[hard axle]

Time also matters

[meager flame]

And sometimes they’re celebrated as how the game works forever

[hard axle]

If a bug is in the game and used for years on end, you can assume its fine

but if its a relatively new bug and unknown

stay clear

[meager flame]

Yeah but that’s because we as players are scared of how inconsistent jagex is

You don’t see bug and think maybe I’ll get banned for xyz this is so wrong

You’re just like idk what those freaks will decide it’s a dice roll

Lmao

Like

You have no idea if it’s new meta a hotfix but temporary thing you can do or if they’ll just randomly go into gear and do way too much investigating and banning people

Just depends on how they woke up that day

Some things are obviously bad and you shouldn’t do them like if I repeatedly got a quest reward

Unfortunately I think a lot of it comes down to who makes each piece of content and perception more than anything else

And that’s why there is no standard response to bug abuse

It’s just a grey area where anything can happen

[chrome lantern]

I mentioned it yesterday but modern Jagex unfortunately feels like anything that does not conform to the exact user experience intended gets patched

But even that’s not consistent

But there are so many minor things I’ve seen get changed even when they don’t present a significant increase (if any at all), just because people don’t understand how it works or even try to

[tacit wharf]

still waiting for menu stalling at shamans gets fixed, so u cant safespot them

[meager flame]

Nah dw safe bug

Also as long as you do the right weird lvl 3 metas you’ll be fine just hit them with a fun weapon while still doing nothing

[austere mulch]

Further clarification on plugin boundaries has been on this list for a few years too

[tender harness]

think of the low level irons and their tbows

[hard axle]

But yeah, like I said, just use them as suggestions and understand the underlying context behind bug abuse bans and them hotfixing

Company doesn't want to ban a paying customer, but they might have to if you're shattering their game

[dawn jackal]

In Jagex's defense, i feel like this discussion is kinda missing the reality of working for a business. I'm not sure this excuses all of this but you don't really have time to go off on tangents to clarify the rules of your game

This would almost certainly take a large internal discussion and multiple conversations that include people who don't know what a tick is.

[hard axle]

dumb it down for the dummies

in the end, cheesing a 800% increase in xp rates matters more than a 100% increase in xp rates

that's what i mean

[dawn jackal]

Yes but you don't really staff so you have floating time to address and define rules like this

It would be great if Jagex could do these things and I don't think its out of line for the community to expect a clear definition of bug abuse

But it's likely not feasible

[gaunt minnow]

And voidwaker nerf

[dawn jackal]

Where is the line then? Bug abuse is ok but only if it doesn't really impact much?

[gaunt minnow]

Probably 100 other things were going to revisit

[chrome lantern]

Yeah I was going to put that in the list but couldn’t remember when they said it so I just said “and more”

[restive storm]

y would we even need to nerf vw at this point

[gaunt minnow]

They said it limits design space

[thick beacon]

the last summer sweep up they gave information in may right regarding some changes they have in mind?

[velvet orchid]

I feel like goblin said we will hear about it soon?

[thick beacon]

havint kept up much with the reddits and stuff maybe they posted there ye

[minor whale]

Correct
Said info is coming this month

Will be gear rebalances, content reworks, general cleanup stuff

[velvet orchid]

[ember token]

believe theres gonna be some aerial fishing changes

[velvet orchid]

Definitely, seen them talk about it several times currently that content is so unappealing to me

[ashen yarrow]

you should do it before they nerf the rates