game-update

[restive storm]

time to take the training wheels off and fix death mechanics

[tropic kelp]

i need that

[small anvil]

But that is solved by having a bowfa kit that is from non pvp down the line

[frail nebula]

they've confirmed it's going to work like leagues shops

[tropic kelp]

awesome

so excited

[small anvil]

Like if that's a big enough concern just have a non pvp kit alternative you promise at some point

[tropic kelp]

do i still get gains if im a horrible pker

[obsidian venture]

Yes

[small anvil]

Or just fix the weird death mechanics

[restive storm]

yes its extremely easy to get points in dmm

[tropic kelp]

oh nice

[restive storm]

most are acquired by not pvping anyway lol

[obsidian venture]

I believe this will get many more folks to join already

[small anvil]

Anguish kit was funny

During doom release

[obsidian venture]

So they’re doing their part for the community as is

[tropic kelp]

okay so its basically like leagues then but with pvp

[obsidian venture]

Yeah

Just have fun

Learn to pk maybe

[small anvil]

I will learn to bolt rag 🫡

[obsidian venture]

If folks cry about getting pked in a pk game mode, you should just be perm banned for being a baby ngl

[obsidian venture]

Still better than nothing

[small anvil]

I wonder if I'll actually want to play it when the time comes

Wasn't drawn to grid

[upper badger]

a lot of ppl will rag pk now with sigils since you dont lose your bank

[small anvil]

But the dmm points are worth a lot

[tropic kelp]

hahahha i agree thats dumb i got the basics down but im kinda slow at tribriding

[restive storm]

just snag those 17 brews, 6 restores and your rcb and have yourself a day

[main sail]

there will be no pvp, it will just be noobs slaving for the rewards

[upper badger]

i can see clans botting lots of accounts to rag client on them

[restive storm]

yeah its prob just gonna be noobs pvming in rag for rewards sadly, honestly might put a bit of a damper on the game for me

[obsidian venture]

But we hope it isn’t the case

Excited for this one regardless

[restive storm]

just hoping for no game breaking bug day 1 again haha

that restart spamming sigils/5k was pretty lame

[tropic kelp]

this is jagex do you really think everything will run smoothly

[oblique mesa]

So like last DMM finale?

[restive storm]

i can only hope that the day 1 things are fixed this time around haha

[tropic kelp]

so i guess all the dislikes are just "pvp bad" people

[cloud iron]

exactly

They never argue in good faith or have anything positive to say about pvp

always downing on every aspect like it's their job

[small anvil]

Like as a non pvper I understand the frustration pvpers have. People upset that there's even a good reward to pvp content

Is being entirely unreasonable

[cloud iron]

Right??

I really wish Jagex would implement their polling partitions for feedback on content like this. Perfect opportunity.

[small anvil]

Modern osrs players are just dominated by the "playing alone together" type

Who just don't wanna deal with pvp

As evidenced by the popularity of iron

[frail nebula]

I mean they did literally just do a whole big section in their recent podcast about how that's a major design pillar of the game

You can't exactly blame the players for that

[small anvil]

Yes I saw that

I'm saying it's a departure from what the game was when pvp was more popular

[frail nebula]

Sure, but that departure happened a long time ago

[small anvil]

But like pvp stuff getting a reward that you don't have to interact with is kinda

[frail nebula]

tbf kits do objectively have pvm benefits

[small anvil]

Let them have their thing and pretend it doesn't exist if you don't wanna

[frail nebula]

which is its own issue imo

[small anvil]

That's the only complaint I've heard that has any relevance and like

You could do safe time point farming and get the reward I bet

[frail nebula]

We'll find out

At any rate, I have less than 0 interest in doing any pvp content in DMM

It's just fundamentally incredibly unfun

[small anvil]

It's not a reason to say no to an actually good reward that's entirely cosmetic

[frail nebula]

Even with it being more forgiving than before

[frail nebula]

Actually yes, it is a good reason

If I like the reward but don't think it fits the content it comes from

[small anvil]

Bowfa is a really good pvp weapon

[frail nebula]

Why not vote no and provide feedback that I think it would be better suited to elsewhere

[small anvil]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[cloud iron]

Hopefully Jagex sees this, from an avid pker, this DMM looks Great! My only suggestion is to add a couple more cosmetics. Maybe something for VLS, Maybe an ornament totally cosmetic helm for the Vesta's armor set. Maybe a ZCB kit.

Nebuli, the problem with you anti pvp types is that you always believe the rewards should come from something other than pvp

[dusky hollow]

i am going to put in a decent run in dmm and still think it's weird for the wildy house scroll to be in the rewards pool

[frail nebula]

I do not respect your opinion here either

[cloud iron]

What's a better place for it to come from?

[small anvil]

Make wildy house enable pvp in the entire house

Just cuz

Let's have fally massacre 2.0

[cloud iron]

I don't care, you don't pk and what you say shouldn't have weight for pvp content

[frail nebula]

wasn't it discussed earlier that it'd be one of the new house types purchasable at any estate agent

like the varlamore type

it was a while ago, I'm going to try to find the blog

[cloud iron]

Alternatively, dmm specific halos would be cool cosmetics

[ember token]

so initially they just polled a whole gamejam project of POH decorations

[chrome lantern]

Summer Summit

[ember token]

in that gamejam, they had showed some new house styles as well as some new decorations

out of the house styles, only 2 were actually finished, and the others were concept art

[frail nebula]

Once again, if your entire point is that nobody who disagrees with you should have any say

[cloud iron]

If this is true that definitely changes the conversation if it was originally discussed to be a main game update, which was then quietly moved to dmm

[frail nebula]

You might not have a point

[ember token]

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Game_Jam_V#PoH_Customisation

there was also a priff style

[chrome lantern]

I would need to really scroll back to find it but I remember people asking, "where's the rest of the PoH expansion" and then jmods "no current plans"

[small anvil]

The point they made is more like people ideologically against pvp as a whole shouldn't get a voice in directing where pvp goes

[frail nebula]

People against pvp as a whole are literally the people they are trying to get into dmm

[cloud iron]

The problem is that there's never room for your type to negotiate, it's simply it should not be from pvp content

WHY should a WILDERNESS cosmetic kit NOT come from pvp content?

[ember token]

they didn't have time to actually add everything in the gamejam, so all we got was an increase max room cap and the 2 styles that were finished (canifis and varlamore)

[small anvil]

No, they're trying to get people on the fence

[frail nebula]

"your type" is such red flag language to use

yeesh

[cloud iron]

"Red flag language" is reddit speak. Have a real conversation, I do not think people like you who DON'T PK, should be in PVP content discussions.

[tropic kelp]

i personally think that half of the cosmetics come from leagues anyway and by that logic they should make leagues rewards obtainable somewhere other than leagues as well. if you dont like the gamemode dont play it but also miss out on the rewards but dont vote no because you dont like the pvp and cant obtain them i think thats stupid

[ember token]

you people

[frail nebula]

Damn pkers really are interesting folks

that's for sure

Very well adjusted

[small anvil]

Who's generalizing now lol

[cloud iron]

A little confusing but I think I agree

[frail nebula]

I'd also be fine with leagues cosmetics being available elsewhere

[cloud iron]

Yeah you're really well adjusted mr Redditor. Anyway, as I've said, you're not having a real conversation about the content

[frail nebula]

Or even just a generic events currency for events rewards

[tropic kelp]

sorry words hard explaining hard - tldr dont like the gamemode dont get the rewards

[frail nebula]

That could encompass leagues, dmm, gridmaster, etc.

[cloud iron]

Exactly.

[chrome lantern]

Alright let me make a "controversial" take

Interacting with multiple parts of the game, even parts you don't like, to get things you want, is a good thing

[frail nebula]

I ordinarily agree with this take

pvp is the main exception to that

[chrome lantern]

Double standards, then

[cloud iron]

Yes! good take. good take.

[restive siren]

i dont think pvp is an exception but i dont consider any leagues or dmm as part of the game

[frail nebula]

There's a difference between interacting with bad parts of the game and interacting with bad people

IMO

[tropic kelp]

yes but that would decentivise playing those game modes that jagex put a lot of effort into

[cloud iron]

Wow! Yeah see anyone that's following along should see this statement as a complete destruction of your credibility! Thank you

[frail nebula]

And if nobody plays it for the gamemode itself

Perhaps it'd show them how much effort they should allocate to it

[cloud iron]

You've revealed yourself to be operating entirely in bad faith when it comes to pvp discussions. Well done

[chrome lantern]

By that logic, should nothing come from ToB? I have to interact with people

[obsidian venture]

Yeah obviously it’s very biased from them

[frail nebula]

In tob, you have to interact with people who have the same objective as you

[tropic kelp]

sure, lets remove all cosmetics for a year from every event - see how people react and how much participation declines or raises

[frail nebula]

It doesn't share the same perverse incentives

[frail nebula]

Unironically this would go a long way to showing which game modes people enjoy playing

[chrome lantern]

"Perverse" lmao

[obsidian venture]

But it’s why Jagex did the poll thing recently. So folks like him will have an opinion but won’t get to vote and that’s completely fair

Think it’d solve a lot tbh

[frail nebula]

y'all have some pretty deranged takes to a suggestion of "maybe the bowfa kit shouldn't come from dmm"

as I said

losing your minds

[obsidian venture]

Not deranged at all

[ember token]

bowfa is really starving for cosmetic kits

[chrome lantern]

The bofa already has 5 kits

[obsidian venture]

Please do not project

You are camp no kits from pvp. We are pvp kits are fine

If anyone is losing their mind speak up

[small anvil]

Oh right I remember nebuli now, they were the everything should be designed around irons guy

[cloud iron]

BTW, Nebuli represents a very large group of players in this game that operates with the exact same bad faith when it comes to pvp.

Exactly why pvp content discussions need to be gatekept and monitored closely with a Jagex team member. This part of the game is in such a fragile state nowadays.

[obsidian venture]

Yeah

[cloud iron]

FIGURES lmao

[ember token]

there's only 8 different bowfa recolors right now, it would be unfair to lock one more behind dmm mode

[tacit wharf]

im just over here with my popcorn

[obsidian venture]

Respect

[frail nebula]

never actually said that but hey

stay deranged I guess

don't agree with a take? try harrassment

[obsidian venture]

???

[small anvil]

Lol? You def said that

[obsidian venture]

LMAOOO

[small anvil]

Like 5 months ago or smth

[cloud iron]

You just said pkers had perverse incentives and say our takes are deranged. Crazy!

[small anvil]

Don't feel like searching on mobile tho

[obsidian venture]

Why do folks get upset and then try to escalate it

[frail nebula]

pkers literally do have perverse incentives

[obsidian venture]

And then blame others

[frail nebula]

that's like the definition of perverse incentives

not even saying that's a bad thing in the mode

that's literally a key part of it

[cloud iron]

☝️ 🤓 witerally perverse

[small anvil]

Pking isn't a perverse incentive, nothing they do is unintended

[frail nebula]

do you even know what perverse incentives means

[restive storm]

what i dont get is how is this even a discussion when you can just buy the item on the GE lol

[small anvil]

Irons....

[restive storm]

sounds like a them problem?

[frail nebula]

I'll take that as a no, you do not know what perverse incentives means

[tropic kelp]

not pointing any fingers but i do think the pvp hate is very emotional with little rationale behind it. im not a pker nor am i a massive fan of wildy but i think that its completely fair that some events are pvp exclusive or that the rewards are pvp related

its literally a part of the game

[frail nebula]

it is a part of the game, and not one that I want to see them put tons of development effort towards

[restive storm]

good news for you is this is the first pvp sort of update in like 2 years

[tropic kelp]

all aspects of the game deserve love 🙂

[obsidian venture]

Ok that’s fine

[restive storm]

so they def arent putting tons of dev time into it

[obsidian venture]

You don’t have to engage with it

[frail nebula]

I also don't have to vote yes on it

[obsidian venture]

We can and will receive some cosmetic for doing so

[frail nebula]

shockingly enough

[obsidian venture]

That’s also fine

[frail nebula]

I can in fact vote no on cosmetics I like coming from sources that I feel are not fitting

[obsidian venture]

It’s ok to not like PvP

Good

[restive storm]

we arent asking you to, we just like the bofa kit so voting yes

[obsidian venture]

We can vote for it as we want it

Simple

[frail nebula]

actually kaoz freaked out about how "your type" shouldn't be able to vote

[obsidian venture]

No need to overthink it really

[frail nebula]

so no

[cloud iron]

No

[obsidian venture]

Yeah tbf you don’t argue in good faith either

[cloud iron]

I did not say you shouldn't be able to vote

I said your type should not have weight in these discussions

[obsidian venture]

So this whole random topic could have been avoided

Throwing around words like it means something when it’s just extremely biased

Is not arguing in good faith

[frail nebula]

^

[restive storm]

look guys this can all be solved with a totally non-biased reward that everyone wants, just give us a reward from dmm thats 1 -50xp lamp that we can use on a skill... its what the people demand

[frail nebula]

You do not think I should even be able to argue that it shouldn't come from dmm

[obsidian venture]

If you know you’re going to just spite vote it’d be more helpful to not continuously comment

[cloud iron]

Thanks you just confirmed what I said. lol

[frail nebula]

that's not a spite vote

[restive storm]

nobody is saying you shouldnt be able to argue that, just that we disagree

[frail nebula]

it's an "I want this to come from something else" vote

that isn't spite

[frail nebula]

"they should gatekeep feedback"

[obsidian venture]

It is when your whole persona is around disliking pvp

[cloud iron]

Feedback is not voting

[frail nebula]

voting is feedback

[obsidian venture]

Gatekeeping feedback is good yes and is the model Jagex intends to go with

As per the poll update

[frail nebula]

you'll also note that they are explicitly soliciting feedback from people who do not like pvping here

with this survey

[obsidian venture]

They will take a mixture of opinions and folks who have engaged with it will be able to vote

[cloud iron]

And yes, it's spite voting when you think pkers have "perverse incentives". You can't walk back what you've revealed about yourself. You are a bad faith actor when it comes to pvp discussions. Just own it.

[tropic kelp]

what is your reasoning behind that? like people said before bowfa is really strong in both pvp and pvm and there are already 5 recolours to choose from use the regular black kit thats close enough

[frail nebula]

what do you think a perverse incentive is

[chrome lantern]

I would vote no to this but I would support a system that prevents you from doing actions that would grant xp in specific skills (not nulling xp, but blocking actions)

[restive storm]

perverse incentives is grazy ngl lmao

[frail nebula]

pvping is one of the clearest examples of a perverse incentive in gaming

[cloud iron]

Holy

[frail nebula]

I am not even saying that's bad lmao

what do you think a perverse incentive is

like I feel as though you're having a purely emotional response to that word

I'm literally not even arguing that it's a bad thing in pvp

that comes with the territory

[restive storm]

something that the result of it causes exactly what it was trying to prevent

[small anvil]

Pking isn't a perverse incentive, its not even prisoners dilemma

There's nothing like people intentionally making less money to avoid a tax

You're using a real term incorrectly

[frail nebula]

ragging?

[cloud iron]

reddit iron logic is so crazy lmao

[tropic kelp]

pvp is photosynthesis

[small anvil]

What perverse incentive is ragging?

Minimizing risk

[frail nebula]

yes

[small anvil]

It's risk reward coming to a decision

That's not a perverse incentive at all

[frail nebula]

okay I think you are under the impression that I'm arguing this is bad

[restive storm]

i still have no idea how PvP as a whole is a perverse incentive

that makes no sense lol

[small anvil]

This has the feeling of someone using a term they heard but don't understand

[ember token]

(of a person or their actions) showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable, often in spite of the consequences.

[restive storm]

what behavior is it causing?

[cloud iron]

It isn't, it's just competitive and redditors come up with different names for that

[obsidian venture]

I just think you are using the word wrong and then doubling down on it. Not a good look

[small anvil]

I understand what perverse incentives are, you've failed to demonstrate what makes it fall in that category

[restive siren]

ill have i heard an intelligent sounding term and gonna use it out of context for 500

[cloud iron]

lmaooo

[restive storm]

i just dont get what hes even trying to point out?

[frail nebula]

perhaps it'd be easier to make a point when 99% of the conversation wasn't just harassment without giving anyone a chance to speak

[restive storm]

now we're scapegoating, just tell us what you're talking ab man, we have no clue

youre just using buzzwords with 0 explanation

of what you're trying to say

[restive siren]

bro you quintupled down on people being too stupid to understand your buzzword instead of explaining what you mean, dont play the victim now

[indigo tinsel]

We're kind of off the topic of game updates here it seems

[restive siren]

it seems that way indeed

[restive storm]

we gotta take it to the PvP channel ig

[frail nebula]

Let's look at, as an example, every previous DMM, in particular the finales

[restive siren]

rally to the pvp channel

[restive storm]

DMM (and especially the finals) make up probably .001% of PvP in this game, so not entirely sure if thats the best example lol

[frail nebula]

I think it's a particularly relevant example to a new DMM

[small anvil]

???

Toad please

[obsidian venture]

[indigo tinsel]

We've been directed back to being on topic

[cloud iron]

This proposed DMM looks great and is totally fine design wise.

[small anvil]

I'm trying to help the guy make their point by clarifying

[dusky hollow]

idrc how it gets gated as long as it stays main game accessible as the game jam pitch seemed to imply, you could make it lms wins if you want

[obsidian venture]

I will vote no on the random event. I’m excited nonetheless

[frail nebula]

FWIW I do think the system changes to DMM do push it in a better direction than previous DMMs

[cloud iron]

Just needs more cosmetics. The proposed cosmetics and emotes are awesome already, my suggestion was to add a couple more

[small anvil]

The point they have to make

[frail nebula]

the random event one just seems bad in general IMO

[indigo tinsel]

Please do it in DMs then

[restive storm]

random event one is def weird

[cloud iron]

lms wins would be a good alternative if they moved it to main game, I agree

[obsidian venture]

That’s cool

[frail nebula]

have they done anything about LMS bots lately

[tropic kelp]

i think that one can lowkey be toxic

maybeõ

[cloud iron]

No, they're worse

[frail nebula]

or is it all still 90% bots

oh

[restive storm]

game needs a little jaggy endorsed toxicity, its been lacking it too much lately

[small anvil]

Auto chat on ko

[restive storm]

ok THIS i can see being a problem

[cloud iron]

FOR REAL!

[tropic kelp]

true but some soft people might get angry

[cloud iron]

I hope pvp makes a big resurgence in 2026. DMM in January can really set the tone

Maybe DMM allstars shortly after? Would be amazing.

[dusky hollow]

auto anything on kill ironically devalues BMing by making it zero effort

[frail nebula]

We did just have a DMM all stars kinda recently

[restive storm]

IMO if jagex is even pitching this idea, then people gotta toughen up a little if theyre getting emoted in a video game. Like do we think fortnite would remove all emotes? prob not

[frail nebula]

I wouldn't expect another one for a while

especially not after the drama with the last one

[cloud iron]

They gotta fly them out next time and get them on LAN

[frail nebula]

it's also just difficult to get that many people together for that much fully committed time

from a logistics standpoint

[tropic kelp]

yeah true that

[restive storm]

IMO would much rather any jagex support go to main game rather than all stars, feels so bad when thats active but theres nothing for regular players to do but watch

and feel left out

[frail nebula]

I mean imagining a DMM that isn't just ruled by RoT is a nice fantasy to have

people should be able to dream

[cloud iron]

notice how dmm allstars was like the most watched rs event. Like 100k+ viewers on multiple streams iirc? PVP in rs is so beloved. Just doesn't get the updates it deserves

But anyway, about this DMM another thing that comes to mind is I hope they fix singles pjing for this one. That was a huge problem in the last couple

[restive storm]

i mean they arent for 99.9% of the event, and only end up being that way if its multi anyway

you still gotta go thru the insane giga pkers which is honestly probably harder than dealing w/ rot lol

[frail nebula]

osrs pvp is much more of a draw for views than it is for players IMO

[small anvil]

Pvp is good TV cuz conflict is good tv

[frail nebula]

A lot more people want to watch conflict than want to engage in conflict

[cloud iron]

The popularity of this game was built on the pvp eras of 07-2012. There's probably still more pk vids from that era than there are modern osrs vids to this day.

[frail nebula]

I enjoy watching DMM

I do not enjoy playing DMM

[frail nebula]

Perhaps the initial popularity

But it's grown wildly since then IMO

[tropic kelp]

i agree to a degree in a sense that watching it is fun but trying to get into the pk community you are just met by someone who has done it since 2007

[small anvil]

Tbf I think modern osrs content is more popular in the chunk, area locked stuff

[pallid swift]

Hopefully the change to pj timer is enough to consistently do freeze tp out in 2v1 scenarios

[small anvil]

Weird restrictions

[tropic kelp]

the barrier of entry is quite high imo

[small anvil]

And gielinor games

[frail nebula]

and then after they kill you, they'll call you 87 different types of slur

[tropic kelp]

ig there is LMS for learning

[frail nebula]

LMS is just bots though

[restive storm]

yeah the barrier to entry is only ever gonna go higher with more and more gear, itll never go back down while pj timer exists

[frail nebula]

you're gonna fight bots who don't do anything or bots that switch everything tick perfectly

[tropic kelp]

yeah true

[frail nebula]

I don't know how much there is to learn from that

[cloud iron]

Yeah, the main playerbase of this game is very reddit normie. The really juiced pking scene from back then has moved on since pvp and player to player competitive stuff is very dead these days

[small anvil]

The big issue is that pvp is kinda a diversion for people at max without pvm goals. Otherwise it's just a net negative gp wise I feel

[cloud iron]

bh is crazy profitable

[small anvil]

And the type of player who wants the competition aspect of pvp is playing a different game prob

[frail nebula]

I'd argue that pvp was only ever the original endgame because there was no serious endgame pvm

As they've fleshed out the pvm side of the game, it's become wildly more popular

[restive storm]

eh its great money, but you're required to either use underhanded tactics like i do w/ skull tricking, or you better be an absolutely demon at the gmae

[small anvil]

Are you farming tier 10?

Against raggera

Raggers

[cloud iron]

This is true, there wasn't much pvm during that era. Moneymaking came from pking back then.

[cloud iron]

Yes! I just finished all the armor sets in the BH shop on my main

[small anvil]

Pvp is a net negative expected return, the profit comes from being better

While pvm is net positive

[restive storm]

oh yeah

[small anvil]

Maybe lms is an exception haha

[cloud iron]

Bh is easily +50m a day average. But yes you have to have a budget setup (I use d scim-vls) and know what you're doing.

[frail nebula]

pvp's never going to be truly net positive on the whole though

[small anvil]

Yeah, with how much ragging the bh people were talking about I figured t10 would be it

[frail nebula]

since it's not generating the same kind of new rewards as pvm does

like BH rewards I guess?

but stuff like virtus, bowfas, nox hallies, etc.

any money made pking stuff like that isn't coming into the game from pvp

[cloud iron]

The only reason pvp doesn't have more popularity is because it's been shoved into a quiet corner of the game. Literally, bh exists in an obscure portal on 1 world a week. If BH was in edgeville like it should be, it'd be more popular just with that change.

[small anvil]

I do feel like osrs could try to make a ranked ladder sorta thing

For nh

[frail nebula]

I really do disagree with this take. I don't think pvp has the same sort of staying power as pvm on a fundamental level

Sure, OSRS is one such example

But there's no shortage of MMOs that come out with a heavy focus on pvp

And they either have to pivot away from that or burn out quickly

[small anvil]

But an issue is that pking is really spread out already

[restive storm]

its fun, but there's currently no real way to get into osrs pvp

[frail nebula]

This isn't just osrs

[small anvil]

Lms is the often said option

[upper badger]

they have neglected pvp for so long that the avg player likes watching it but not pking anymore. I mean I'm a pker who only really pvms nowadays since pvp is dead and full of cheating

[cloud iron]

pvp is the true endgame no matter which way you cut it. Pre toa release I never did pvm, I'm GM now and pking is the only ever-changing challenge.

[frail nebula]

If pvp burns out quickly in basically every MMO

[restive storm]

sorta, but even making the jump from there to the wildy is extremely different

[frail nebula]

even if it's the main focus

then I don't think it being "shoved in a corner" in osrs is the problem

[cloud iron]

This is exactly correct.

[frail nebula]

If it were just neglect in OSRS

[restive storm]

the other problem is the ppl who stayed and endured the cheaters are now so good that you aren't gonna kill them anyways

[frail nebula]

Then I wouldn't expect us to see the same pattern popping up again and again

In different games

[zinc galleon]

Anyone else not planning on participating in DMM feel like there were no check boxes that allowed you to answer why?

[cloud iron]

The skillgap in pvp is a huge problem since it's been suppressed for so long. Only the experts are there now. New players lose 100m before they are skilled enough to compete with people who have years of pking under their belts.

[upper badger]

multi pking helped bring a lot of casuals into pvp but nowadays thats dead too

[frail nebula]

Not to mention the littany of pvp-specific rules that differ from the rest of the game

That aren't documented in game anywhere

[restive storm]

i never woulda gotten into pking if the pj timer was in place when i was learning

i couldnt have afforded it lo

[frail nebula]

Like no spell resizing, autocast rules being different

[obsidian venture]

Tbf Nhing in particular has such a high skill ceiling, very few things in pvm compares

So idt it’ll ever die out

[frail nebula]

Sure, but it's also not going to have mass appeal

For that same reason

[obsidian venture]

That’s fine

[cloud iron]

Yeah, there's issues with pvp. But you're just describing the neglect and mismanagement of that part of the game. And that's due to the tidal wave of hate for pkers you see from the reddit crowd. Jagex gets attacked when they support that part of the game

[small anvil]

I think osrs would be helped by a ranked 1v1 ladder sorta thing where you don't risk gear

But pvp is fragmented enough as it is

[frail nebula]

That's not due to neglect of pvp

[restive storm]

like the PVP arena that has rating? but nobody ever goes there? lol

[obsidian venture]

Idt it needs to cater to everyone. Just like how endgame pvm doesn’t appeal to folks, or speed, or clogs

[frail nebula]

That's due to pvpers specifically requesting that QoL not come to pvp

[zinc galleon]

yeah, old pj timer allows you to play with your friends

[small anvil]

I've never actually done pvp arena tbf lol

[tropic kelp]

demonics is nh at home

[oblique mesa]

Yeah most PvPers are basically boomers

[small anvil]

Rewards are non-existent right

[frail nebula]

how about triple TDs

[restive storm]

i mean the two things you listed arent "QOL" those are just outright buffs in every sense of the word lol

[cloud iron]

Something that would really help pvp that they could eventually include in a wilderness expansion is 2v2/3v3 zones in multi, that way you can go out with some friends and fight teams and duos in certain areas. That'd get people out there and show them how fun it can be

[tropic kelp]

never fought 3 at once seems scary

[frail nebula]

My point isn't that they were omitted from pvp due to neglect

but due to pvpers specifically wanting those weird exceptions

[small anvil]

I think the wildy is too large

[restive storm]

ohh yeah you're right about that

[small anvil]

And too many worlds

[obsidian venture]

Not bad

[frail nebula]

khaoz was saying that the inconsistencies are due to jagex's neglect

which I don't agree with

[restive storm]

tbf it isnt that its too large, its that there's too many worlds

[cloud iron]

The issues with pvp are definitely due to the neglect.

[zinc galleon]

yeah it's a bit exacerbated by having 300 worlds too

[small anvil]

Ya sure

[obsidian venture]

3 isn’t hard, you just pray 2 and move for the third

[small anvil]

I mean the overall density of players

Is too low

[tropic kelp]

oh

[restive storm]

which they DID say they'd "consider addressing" but idk if that went anywhere

[frail nebula]

okay but the ones I called out, and that you replied to, are not neglect

those were, once again, specific pvp community requests

[obsidian venture]

Folks cheese it sadly

[cloud iron]

which ones

[obsidian venture]

But the avg pvmer is handless

[frail nebula]

spell resizing and auto casting

[obsidian venture]

?

[restive storm]

its also true that neither of these have the slightest thing to do w/ why pvp isnt popular lol

[cloud iron]

I don't understand, they shouldn't be in pvp they're too powerful

[small anvil]

Auto cast freeze would be silly

[cloud iron]

That wouldn't be QOL

[small anvil]

But the spellbook change is definitely jarring when entering the wildy

[frail nebula]

my point was that they are part of a large number of game rules that work differently in the wildy

with no clear in-game indication of why or how they change

those are just some

[restive storm]

that i agree w/

but i dont think that really contributes to why it isnt popular currently

[small anvil]

There are things that would be buffs but should be changed anyway I feel

[restive storm]

in a meaningful way

[small anvil]

Fighting the UI is different from fighting the player

[frail nebula]

like I'm not even arguing that everything should work the same everywhere

[small anvil]

Imo

[frail nebula]

but if it doesn't

[cloud iron]

I mean, you have to admit that fighting monsters and fighting players is different, there HAS to be different rules. The mismanagement comes in when, as you said, they're not stated anywhere

[frail nebula]

then it should be clearly documented in game

[tropic kelp]

arent they in the wiki

[frail nebula]

a lot of it has only actually been well-documented in the wiki relatively recently

it's not been a great source of it for a while

[tropic kelp]

oh

i had no idea

[small anvil]

Oh no

[tropic kelp]

what haha

[small anvil]

🙃

[cloud iron]

The reason why they aren't is because of how much hate pking gets, in other words, reddit is essentially responsible for Jagex not putting more effort into pvp, which would include effort into making sure there's an easily accessible list of things that are different. They leave it to the pkers since we already know.

[ember token]

and that's not the wiki's fault that people who care about pvp tend to be not interested in documenting mechanics and stuff like that on the wiki

[small anvil]

I feel like pkers should want the barrier to entry to be lower tbf

[restive storm]

i been fighting for them to remove the pj timer since they put it in the game

[frail nebula]

a new person not knowing all the UI changes makes them an easier kill

[restive storm]

that was the worst decision theyve ever made lol

[oblique mesa]

BH worlds my beloved 🥺

[half hearth]

Pking gets hate because jagex throw pvm'ers as pk fodder in wilderness all the time. Pk eachother and nobody would bother hating at you.

[obsidian venture]

No

[cloud iron]

We do, but we're not Jagex and it's not our job to do that work for them. Pking has more serious issues than an easily accessible list of differences for noobs.

Keep in mind, all of these differences are in the wiki already. The thing these pvmers don't get is that you have to be totally accountable for your own setup when it comes to pvp. If you walk into wildy being ignorant of certain mechanics, that's on you. Not the game or anyone else.

[obsidian venture]

Wildy is the wild Wild West

Everyone’s a target

[restive storm]

not allowed to, you have to hit the 1/300 worlds right at the exact same moment someone else does. Because we arent allowed to attack pkers off kills

[frail nebula]

I do fully agree that the design of trying to funnel people who don't want to pvp into pvp areas to serve as fodder for PKers is a game design that encourages toxicity

[small anvil]

Yeah I'm more thinking the spell resize

[frail nebula]

And it's not exactly surprising that a lot of people hate it

[small anvil]

Was a bad thing to fight against

[obsidian venture]

I usually only drop a gf when pking and I’ve been slurred at 10x more by pvmers

[ember token]

the wiki had 0 info on the ranking system in Emir's Arena until a guy who actually played the minigame showed up in the discord, and it resulted in the discovery that the highest rank in Emir's Arena was called "Fake" and had an egg icon

[obsidian venture]

Also threatened to be doxxed a few times by them

[cloud iron]

Just too OP

[obsidian venture]

Best thing to do when pking is to pk em and then report

[cloud iron]

Some things you just gotta git gud and click better

[obsidian venture]

Double kill really

[frail nebula]

That's neat, but my own experience has largely been the opposite

[oblique mesa]

Of course, PVMs deserve to have full EHP / Loot in the wilderness and never be interupted

[frail nebula]

Anecdotes are anecdotes

[small anvil]

I feel like fighting against the UI isn't the type of skill expression you should be trying to preserve is all

[cloud iron]

I don't understand your point

[restive storm]

my anecdotes are the same as theirs tbf

[frail nebula]

I mean I'd like stuff like the voidwaker to be obtainable outside of the wildy. I'm happy if it's from bosses with significantly worse loot outside of it

[obsidian venture]

I do both but mostly pvm. If you’d drop a gf, most times the interaction is good

If someone kills me gz

[cloud iron]

NO.

[obsidian venture]

If I kill them gz

[frail nebula]

for better or for worse, they made it an incredibly powerful pvm weapon

[obsidian venture]

If you want to add to the toxicity you’re the problem

[frail nebula]

that was probably a mistake

I mean I usually just say nothing in any pvp contexts

[restive storm]

id rather they just nerf it in pvm

[frail nebula]

Might be a bit late for that though

[oblique mesa]

The prices for VW are suppressed by bots anyway

[restive storm]

naw they could just make the change

[small anvil]

Like pvp skill is in switching stuff and such already, prioritizing what to click. Someone losing or winning because they were off by a couple pixels on the barrage icon is not necessary for high level of skill expression in pvp

[frail nebula]

tbf they have already tried that

and decided it was too late

[small anvil]

But it's certainly a reason people don't get into PVP

[restive storm]

idk how it could be 'too late' lol

[cloud iron]

Many good things should come from dangerous content in the wilderness. The problem with Voidwaker is they made that content so easily bottable that it's nearly worthless.

Someone said it earlier, but having hundreds of worlds with wilderness access is a problem when it comes to certain kinds of activity.

[half hearth]

Quests and clue scrolls don't belong in the wildy, hence all the hate. I run around naked and get hunted down like there is no tomorrow, hence all the hate. It's really jagex fault

[analog crow]

well gg then price will crash and wildy bosses will be even more dead

[frail nebula]

I'm fine with good things coming from the wildy as long as the wildy is not the sole place it comes from

[restive storm]

ive done like 50 clues in the last 3 days and never even seen anyone, how are you dying a lot doing them

[frail nebula]

If the wildy is a better source of something that you can get elsewhere, that's entirely different from the wildy being the only source

[cloud iron]

But you'd be trading something you can get better at for something anyone could do. It skews it way too much.

[restive storm]

they already are dead

[frail nebula]

also wildy clue steps should be rethought

[restive storm]

those def should not

[small anvil]

I think it's a bigger barrier to entry that kills the pvp scene as a whole more than it's worth preserving is all

[frail nebula]

but it is funny to protect item on my spade

[small anvil]

Not asking for auto cast barrage

[chrome lantern]

No problem with them being in the wildy

[restive storm]

clues have been in the wildy since the beginning of time

why move them now

[ember token]

https://discord.com/channels/324132423636090880/1425548697818632354

[chrome lantern]

It's good and healthy to interact with multiple aspects of the game even if you don't like all of them

[analog crow]

counterpoint: last time someone tried to pk me when doing a wildy clue I killed them instead while naked with a dds and no food

[half hearth]

As i said, throwing pvm'ers as pk fodder and you will get hate.

You don't get clues from pking

[cloud iron]

I mean, wouldn't it be pretty dumb if you could get an infernal cape from anywhere other than the inferno challenge? Challenging content should give good rewards, and some challenges should have a risk factor, like coming from the wilderness only. If you don't have the fortitude to be out there to get it, you simply should not be able to obtain it. Same thing for aspirational items like infernal cape.

[frail nebula]

the inferno is more approachable than the wildy though

[small anvil]

What do you mean, all it costs is enough gp 🙃

[frail nebula]

imo at least

[cloud iron]

This is why lms exists. Imo it's really just a training ground for this exact issue you bring up.

[oblique mesa]

Tbf the clue do-ers running around the wilderness in graceful are too juicy to pass up

[restive storm]

what are we even sayin here man lmao

[cloud iron]

In your opinion. Which imo is ignorant

[obsidian venture]

Respect

[frail nebula]

I mean realistically, look at it like this

You have the same rules as everywhere else

[obsidian venture]

Saying the inferno is more approachable is hilarious

[frail nebula]

Waves of steadily increasing difficulty

[obsidian venture]

Most folks start getting shakes

[restive storm]

might be the most outta touch thing ive read in this entire discord

[cloud iron]

Have you ever done inferno

[chrome lantern]

Wilderness =/= pking is good to note

[frail nebula]

yes

[cloud iron]

Sureeee

[chrome lantern]

Like I'm sure you've used the wildy altar

[obsidian venture]

Keep in mind wildy is free from lvl 3

[chrome lantern]

Probably also the abyss

[obsidian venture]

Wildy agility and rouges chest are ever so popular

[chrome lantern]

Love rogues chests

[obsidian venture]

People max before sending the inferno

Max cheesers

[chrome lantern]

The only thieving training that isn't completely awful garbage to interact with

[obsidian venture]

🤣🤣🤣

[cloud iron]

Anyway, stuff like d picks, sure that doesn't need to come from only wilderness.

However, there should be way more things like the voidwaker that are really good and useful that should be wilderness locked. That's great design. Risk vs reward is always a winner, especially for high end content.

[frail nebula]

I don't see all that many max cheese capes these days tbh

[restive storm]

cheese maxers ICANT

[obsidian venture]

[chrome lantern]

Oh they're definitely around

[frail nebula]

oh yeah for sure

[obsidian venture]

But yeah that’s def a top 3 take if I ever saw one

[restive storm]

i actually skull tricked a cheese maxer for tassys in the rev caves yday

[frail nebula]

but it has been a minute since I last saw a max cheese caper

[small anvil]

Hey I never made a cosmetic max cape so I'm safe from this

[chrome lantern]

They just don't make the max fire cape all the time xd

[frail nebula]

fair

[small anvil]

Oh no etube has me pegged

[obsidian venture]

I know some folks that are embarrassed

So they keep it as is

[frail nebula]

etube has you what

[chrome lantern]

I don't personally even like the infernal max either

[obsidian venture]

I love the infernal max tbh

[ember token]

i'm maxed, master CAs, no inferno cape or any combined capes

wouldve made the quiver max if not for sailing

[chrome lantern]

The only max cape variant I made is quiver

[obsidian venture]

Did you use the wildy?

[frail nebula]

I agree that the normal infernal cape looks better and that's not because I'm nowhere near maxing

[chrome lantern]

Since we'll be able to disassemble it

[frail nebula]

Max quiver cape does look fantastic tbh

[ember token]

i have used the wilderness yes

[frail nebula]

the max infernal cape feels too noisy for my taste

like between the animated pattern and the detailed edges

[chrome lantern]

I just like the base cape, simple as

[frail nebula]

there's too much going on

[chrome lantern]

Same reason I dislike the majority of orn kits in the game tbh

[frail nebula]

the quiver has a much simpler base palette which makes it work a lot better IMO

but that's all just personal taste

[obsidian venture]

Holy

[analog crow]

Wilderness is pretty accessible
Most of the time you don't see a soul since most of it is boring dogwater content

[obsidian venture]

Yeah

[restive storm]

yeah i quite literally dont believe anyone who says they die doing clues

[obsidian venture]

Which is why his take was def top 3 worst I’ve saw

[frail nebula]

hey, it's also content that bots use to generate tons of gp

[restive storm]

cuz like where are the people that are killing you ive never seen them lol

[obsidian venture]

Good screenshot tho

[obsidian venture]

I’ve died twice in 5 years

[frail nebula]

I will say that more approachable than the wildy was a poor choice of words

[restive storm]

ive never even seen anyone while doing my clues

[frail nebula]

I more meant than wildy PKing

[obsidian venture]

I’ve escaped way more tho

[frail nebula]

not other activities in the wildy

[restive sapphire]

I agree that inferno max cape looks kinda like ass

[hard axle]

Wildy is too accessible, which is why Voidwaker is 36m

[obsidian venture]

And have done like 2k+ clues

[restive storm]

well thats just bots tbf

[analog crow]

that's bots

[restive sapphire]

I use max quiver and god cape

[frail nebula]

I just don't bring anything on wildy clue steps

[hard axle]

Smart folks were protesting about including the baby wildy bosses below 30 line because whether it was pet hunters OR bots

[frail nebula]

I even protect item to keep a spade to make a point

[hard axle]

that instant tp is too strong

[restive storm]

yeah singles bosses were just insane lol

[hard axle]

That's part of the reason why it was so botted

[wanton pier]

What is end date of deadman annihilattion? If it starts Jan 30th?

[frail nebula]

last one lasted what, 2 weeks?

[analog crow]

then they gated it behind diary as if bots can't complete the diary

[hard axle]

Even if you add monsters that can TB, like Zombie Pirates, it doesn't help too much if the requirements are too low either.

[frail nebula]

yeah I don't know why they thought the diary was going to be a significant obstacle

[ember token]

apocalypse was 3 weeks, armageddon was 2 weeks

[hard axle]

In general, wildy is poorly designed because 30+ is the most balanceable since you can't instantly tp.

Just add more safe zones and remove teleports at all levels outside of safe zones

and it'll be fine

[restive storm]

in this case then i absolutely agree, which is why iwant them to revert the pj timer and make it easier for noobs to learn

[frail nebula]

thank you for being reasonable about that

[wanton pier]

Ya, terrible way to have a game mode. Minimum one month

[frail nebula]

I mean if they want this DMM to be more approachable, I wouldn't be surprised if it lasts longer

[chrome lantern]

I don't even think that would really make it more approachable though

People will just have better gear later

[wanton pier]

Agreed. But honestly the way you can build your account and buy sigils with points, there won’t be a single meta build and average pkers vs elite pkers will be more balanced

[restive storm]

i think this is sorta what people who want them to make changes to PvP to make it "easier" to get into don't realize, but if you're making people fight 1v1 exclusively, average pkers and elite pkers (heaven forbid a noob) will literally never be remotely balanced

because the elite pker is gonna be wearing 40x the risk cuz he knows he cant die

[wanton pier]

You can make easy anti pk builds now with the way the unlocking quests and new items are gonna be doing. There won’t be as much bullying going on

Protect mage with be the new camp for noobs though

Kinda wished they had the new food from sailing available for this deadman

[restive storm]

oh yeah, no that i agree, if you have 1/4 of a brain its impossible to die especially on main game. Even on dmm w/ sigils elite pkers ithink can still get kills

but idk

tank gear is just totally outta control

[wanton pier]

It’s just funny how not everyone brings anti gear with them and think they can just tank to singles/safe Rea with no freezes

[royal minnow]

Are sigils still dropped from NPC's or did they completely remove that?

[restive storm]

removed i believe

[royal minnow]

Additionally, are blighted weapons removed? No mention of that in the blog either

[restive storm]

prob still the same

[royal minnow]

No attack level required for the thunder kopash either

[restive storm]

mod zoblin said its gonna be 60 atk

[steel aspen]

Is the proposed Bowfa/crystal kit specifically only black/red or can other color combinations be chosen?

[ember token]

I would assume its specifically only what it looks like in the blog

[steel aspen]

Damn. Black armor with a red bow is already over represented. That kind of feels bad, but it does reflect DMM colors.

[royal minnow]

The blog is a little confusing around the Ranael's super skirt store. Can't tell if that is a meme or not haha. Let's say I'm killing a sand crab and get the chest which is obviously super unlikely. Can someone kill me then loot it? Blog says "that means other players who see you trying to loot a chest can (and will) fight your for it"

[chrome lantern]

It's just a joke because the flyer guy is saying it

[trail adder]

Late to the party but has anyone seen elaboration on starter kit/weapons, the footnote about spawning with tuna/tps/cape didn't mention things like starter weapons or the daily packs being removed

[meager flame]

yup its why i just use a regular infernal cape

tbh i think the max cape in general could use a little work visually

nothing too insane but better color options and max variants of some of the cooler end game capes like the dmm ma2 variants

would probably help

i think the only max cape i use other than the default one for all of its perks is the max quiver since i actually like it more than the regular quiver

[vernal valve]

tbf these aren't mutually exclusive

content being too accessible means it also gets giga botted

[meager flame]

it would also be nice if you could customize the default max cape a little bit to make it more unique to the player since the base version is a bit boring especially now

it kinda sucks that we got the default rs3 max cape but not their color customization

[royal minnow]

I'm assuming the drop rate modifier effects the chances of the deadmans chest

[finite mantle]

Whats the odds on getting a bank in poh

[chrome lantern]

0

[finite mantle]

Thats a shame

[restive storm]

do POHs really need to be MORE OP?

[ember token]

yeah we need to have every possible skilling station in the POH

as well as a bank

and farming patches

and you know what, add an aquarium that we can fish out of

[finite mantle]

Data got the idea!

They could add that in from sailing be a cool idea

[ember token]

i dont want to see people out in the world ever

[torpid delta]

let us put a runite rock in our garden too imo

[ember token]

everyone should be in their poh always

[restive storm]

Garrisons but in osrs

[chrome lantern]

Would make more sense to make a combination rune-amethyst rock that gives both every mining action

[tacit wharf]

rather a bush that spawns mega-rares in our poh

[finite mantle]

Just a bank and a aquarium be nice lol

But u got to catch a special version on the fish u want to put in poh

[meager flame]

unironically though it would be nice if you could build like

some magical dock or something to work on your boat in your poh and take it out of there

back into the world

[finite mantle]

That be cool as well

[tacit wharf]

needs ship in a bottle

[meager flame]

we already have portals on water in the ocean to begin with

so it would actually make sense

[ember token]

poh dock is something ive seen a lot of people say but doesn't really make sense to me

[meager flame]

you know the portal room in your house

exactly the same thing with a water theme

[tacit wharf]

boat stand, something for yr boat to sit on when u take it out of yr boat bottle, so u could work on it

[meager flame]

it would also let jagex make some in ocean waypoint type things so people dont feel like they're sailing through nothing for forever to get places

[ember token]

i was about to say its basically just a teleport to docks and either embarking from your poh always goes to one single location or its basically a teleport to every single dock which is broken

[meager flame]

it doesn't even really have to be the poh but it seems fitting just because everything is kind of transient with how you interact with your house

you go in there to go to other places basically

i probably wouldn't even use docks

like

i'd probably let people build beacons in certain places so that i didnt have to build islands for them to teleport to

just so they could get around the map in general

[chrome lantern]

You can already make 5 boats so you have 5 teleport beacons

[meager flame]

basically exactly how they already do teleports

just like

boat theme

tbh i think what they did do is actually way stronger in practice than what i probably would've done just like

less thematic

what we're likely going to do with how they did sailing is simply teleport to wherever then teleport the boat to you then sail out of whatever the most convenient normal teleport location is

although they're probably gonna have some pretty bad coverage in some areas if i had to guess since there's so much new space

[hard axle]

Sounds about right and if they need more, Reddit will beg them to basically add a beacon to every major island.

[tawny scaffold]

Isn't it the season for leagues not Deadman? No leagues this year and all we get is crappy gridmaster which was 0 fun? How many people dropped within the first week. A much higher majority of people like pve more than pvp and a vast majority of people with jobs only come for leagues. Im sorry im upset but I know for a fact theres a big number of people who severely look forward to it.

[ember token]

gonna have to deal with it

[floral blaze]

leagues was never on the 2025 roadmap so why we whining

shoulda made some noise when they put the roadmap out

[merry verge]

Wow dude, we've been waiting a long time for this deadman.. chill... and yes gridmaster literally just finished

[ember token]

bro comes in to complain that jagex isn't spending enough time on people who don't play the game

[sharp tendon]

lol

First thing I see when I come to this channel

[hard axle]

Go play the main game lmao

Like, we've had 15-18 month between Leagues and the most recent one just ended 10 months ago, not counting Gridmaster which was essentially Leagues as well

[tacit wharf]

will be an interesting year next year, with a league likely and possibly raids 4

[icy relic]

Vampyrium, raids 4, sailing xpac, leagues

[obsidian venture]

If leagues is another copy paste of what we had prior… just cancel it 🫡

[chrome lantern]

Gridmaster was more fun than the last 2 region-locked leagues combined

[torpid delta]

you'll get your 3 region trailblazer 4 and like it buster

[hasty shard]

and no you cant not pick misthalin

[meager flame]

i'd totally be down for this

temp modes are never/have never been as good as actual good game updates

[merry verge]

It's not an "auto-unlock". It's an unlock for a hefty price, which sets you way back on other upgrades/sigils that you'd want. I think if they balance this correctly, this can be really great..
Most people don't really want to do ALL quests over and over and over again. I myself have done DT1-2, DS1-2, SotE etc. like at least 5 times across the accounts I've been playing.

I still will do many quests again this DMM, but I'd kinda love option to pay to complete some quests I really don't feel like doing again, again, for the 5th-10th time.

[merry verge]

Yeah, this does indeed look great so far. They've made some brilliant developments on the gamemode, clearly, and taken lessons from past DMM etc. Looks like great improvements, I think this will be the biggest DMM ever, hopefully the best as well.

[meager flame]

also i'd just like to say while prepping for sailing

forestry is the worst update maybe ever added to osrs

ty for your time

lmao not even kidding just delete it and keep the social tree buff

[chrome lantern]

Forestry sucks yeah

[meager flame]

i could be teleporting around to calls on a world with people but instead world hop sim

[chrome lantern]

Still somehow better than the intended way to do Forestry

[meager flame]

well yeah they had this insane idea that anyone would just go afk chopping trees for this bark lol

like yeah maybe if they cut the shop prices by like

75%

[small anvil]

I got the forestry logs besides pheasant and it was fine

The egg hunters are funny

It's just a mini game, nothing offensive about it to me

[quiet plank]

I've never done any pvp but I think I'll do dead man mode because the the cosmetics look so good.

Whenever I finally get bowfa I will camp that ornament kit

[true talon]

The bank key change was absolute godsend, this turns DMM more into a leagues/pvp world more so than a high risk bank key full of gold swapping, muling and people trying to not fight or have fun.

Also people was gaming the bank key system using high value GE items that had no actual in game value

It will open up more of rag sets, but it also means more people will be fighting.

[obsidian venture]

Probably the best change really

Glad they decided to do it this time

[true talon]

Point change for unlocking the sigils is also another goated change

perm unlocks with a pick 3 system when you wanna go pk

[obsidian venture]

I'm iffy on that but can't deny it's qol

[true talon]

No need to swap gold and pay 500m for a sigil of the ninja

[obsidian venture]

I think they mentioned you can have pvm/pk sigils at the same time

or maybe I misread

[true talon]

you will have all perks on for pvm/skilling

but the pvp ones are 3 active

[obsidian venture]

Something something not changing as much

Which was annoying

[true talon]

This is going to be like a pvp based league more than DMM but also have the finals with prize money, i bet it has one of the highest turn outs of any DMM

Also the bowfa set is gonna get a lot of ironmen in lol

[obsidian venture]

I don't believe they mentioned the finale

but I'd like it to be 1v1s although can we really get a dmm without ddos attacks

Last years finale was boring imo

[true talon]

I think it will have a final with prize money, because it said so in the poll

[obsidian venture]

The bowfa kit is genuinely cool

tsotd is ok?

think they can do better

[chrome lantern]

I think the tsotd isn't doing enough and what it does do is kinda not good

[merry verge]

I don't think the spirit of DMM is behind bank keys anyway, I think the spirit of DMM is more about the PvP everywhere and high chance of dying at any time with wildy weps and sigils being so strong that anyone can die no matter how good they are 😄 Also the gem of seasonal is everyone starting from scratch going through and progressing to get strong while PvPing, it's such a blast

I feel like this looks like it'll be 10% leagues 90% DMM, which may be around the right balance.. 😄

[obsidian venture]

I'd like them to revitalize the staff of light and guthix tbh

[chrome lantern]

Staff of darkness

[obsidian venture]

Very cool staves that don't do much nowadays

[true talon]

the bank key thing was just the original concept, because we already had pvp worlds.

They finally learned its way to hard to police mulers and bank key stackers

I hope loot keys remain though

Its gonna be annoying to get a pk an have to pick everything up in your inventory lol

[merry verge]

Oh yeah, well I think it should be an option. In DMM you always pack a looting bag anyway, and you have grace time after killing someone. So I often wouldn't mind just filling loot bag with what I wanna grab like usual, then not waste inventory space with keys..

[true talon]

Looting bag is a good one too

[meager flame]

tbh

idk if they actually do this on purpose or not but im pretty sure they do too many temp modes to make like

a lot of cool cosmetics

it seems like they basically want a substantial amount of filler rewards and thats how you get your rugs and poh decorations etc from stuff like this

and then try to do like a couple of cool items

so they still have more relevant items to put kits on for the next one lol

so like for this one they're really looking at your crystal armor and your poh

and the staff of the dead is like your

generic pvp item that you'll see get used so it gets a kit

[merry verge]

@winter hearth @cedar mesa DMM Annihilation looks really great and exciting so far, well done on the developments and improvements! 🤩

Question tho: I am a bit torn about the brackets not matching the PermaDMM brackets. On the one hand, I'm excited to see new fresh variety of builds, especially with the Ruinous Powers!

But on the other hand, any build that uses Ruinous Powers(high pray lvls) in the Seasonal now will migrate very poorly into any bracket of PermaDMM w45 (except for the main bracket).

• Are you planning to allow combat skill reset for gp in PermaDMM w45 so we can adjust our builds to fit the PermaDMM w45 brackets?
• Or will you adjust PermaDMM w45 brackets to fit with this SDMM and add Ruinous Powers there as well?

The issue is now that I feel torn between either making my desired acc build for PermaDMM w45 in the tourney OR enjoying SDMM with all it has to offer and try out Ruinous Powers etc..

[meager flame]

people log into the perma dmm world?

only half joking i know there are dozens of them

im like actually curious though

why does that world exist

[merry verge]

I'm expecting a surge of new players into it now with it's improvements and updates & breaches.

I've recommended everyone who started getting interested in w45 now after this years improvements & breachws to make & build their accounts for w45 during this upcoming seasonal because it is way more fun to build it like that together when everyone is starting from scratch

• way more macro-efficient because sigils and way better exp rates
• you can easily get ur infernal cape & quiver for it on seasonal on any acc build cuz u get titanium sigil 60% dmg reducgion et.+++... 🙂

[meager flame]

i actually just got deja vu

i think we talked about this a long time ago

lmao

probably too far back to really find it though

[merry verge]

It serves many purposes. It's a world that doesn't need to pass polls for changes (PvP gets updates that PvM playerbase may not want for whatever reason), it can be testing ground for PvP things, it gives people a place to practice and learn DMM for the upcoming tournaments and seasonals so they can git gud and have a chance to get up to speed and learn the mechanics before tournament begins.

It also is a world for people who are interested in PvP and OSRS, but doesn't like skilling for over 100 hours to hit 99 etc. (Doing same action thousands of times for 10 hours is enough to max a skill instead of 100 hours). Many people may never get to have a max cape in maingame in their life because the playtime required is like 10k hours played. In DMM that's like 10x faster, which means late-end-game things are accessible for more casual gamers etc. which is also really cool too.

Also it adds extra spice to PvP with PvP weapons being available, and now maybe also Ruinous Powers may become available too..?

[frail bough]

did they say they updated the polling charter page?

looks super diff now

[chrome lantern]

So it does.

Also misspelled

[ember token]

spelled correctly for me

[chrome lantern]

Down more on the page

It's there twice

[merry verge]

I would also like to ask if it could be considered to make deaths count somehow, even when not risking anything running around naked for whatever reason like questing, skilling or ragging etc.?

I wonder if losing a small amount of Deadman Points per death would be the right approach? And if at 0, it would start going slightly in the negative, but only very slightly? (Disincentivizes suiciding and more unwanted behaviours).

Losing a bit of DMM points on death would incentivize players to always try their best to survive, to use the best gear they have available to maximize survival chances and I think generally a lot less naked people will be running around.. 😅

(Example amount of points lost per death could be about the same as what 1 Graardor kill would grant in points or something, it really shoulsn't be too much as it could quickly feel "too" punishing to the point that it would demotivate players (like the exp loss deaths were back in the day).

[winged mantle]

I thought the whole point of dmm was to encourage people to fight not punish death

[main sail]

It’s not dmm anymore it’s leagues with pvp

90% of pkers will be raggers and everyone will just get their points and quit

[minor whale]

That's what it was last year

It was absolutely emptied out in a week

I don't think these specific changes are going to do any more harm

[main sail]

I think this one will def have more players

[winged mantle]

It either that or dead dmm worlds from the start

[main sail]

But will be way more boring

[round lintel]

Will Tears of Guthix work on Sailing after release?

[umbral summit]

not for a while

[round lintel]

Did they say that or just assuming?

[umbral summit]

yes

[ember token]

been asked and answered many times

lamps and ToG will not work on Sailing for a period of time after launch

we don't know how long, could be up to 6 months

[meager flame]

i do kinda hope its not too long of a block

[ember token]

i doubt itll be 6 months

[meager flame]

like i'll likely be 99 before the block is over but

it just seems weird to me kind of to stop people from lamping or whatever

if it were me i'd probably only stop people for like 3 weeks to a month so that it didnt have anything to do with the first like

idk 30-50m exp if they're really trying

[sick moon]

'We're removing bank keys from dmm" could literally pass as a newspost title for april fools. What on earth are they thinking???

[meager flame]

well honestly they were probably thinking that the thing that caused most casual players to quit dmm was losing their 10k and having the bank raided lol

[sick moon]

Everyone would be like "LOL imagine!".. Yet here we are living that exact parallel nightmare reality

[meager flame]

i mean on one hand i see why they did it because

losing your set is probably a lot easier to handle and come back from

[sick moon]

If people wanted to play regular main game osrs they would log into a regular world. People play dmm to play something different. Its so god damn stupid

[meager flame]

but it also does make it basically leagues with a side of pvp for your equipped gear

they also werent wrong that most people were basically gaming the system anyways with the deposit box or a mule

and the only people really getting fucked were the new people

[sick moon]

It makes it regular 07 pvp world. if someones attacking me in a bank il just deposit all my items and suicide

deposit box was part of the game, what are you talking about

[meager flame]

im talking about how experienced players were hiding their wealth inside of it to not take a huge loss but new players probably didn't know or didn't have enough to put in there

got cleaned and never returned

they're basically trying to fix the part where almost nobody actually plays dmm after a few days

[sick moon]

even though people muled, the keys were still decent most of the time. removing keys altogether makes dmm so much worse

people quit because the swap rates go down. now what do you think will happen to the swap rates if noone even needs to swap more gp to regear after dieing? it tanks to 1:1

the risk of dmm is what keeps rates and player count high

especially if we have 1v1s at the end and everyone really need to try get the best gear

[meager flame]

i mean it didn't keep player counts high though

i get what you mean i agree that its not as exciting now

[sick moon]

And what do you think will happen now?

[meager flame]

uhh honestly im not sure

[sick moon]

If it wasnt great before as you pointed out, it'll be much worse

[chrome lantern]

I don't think the success of DMM should be judged by how successful swapping is lmao

[meager flame]

i think they're making it very similar to playing the main game wilderness minigame where you try to pvm but might have to pvp

[chrome lantern]

I would say that in concept and in practice swapping is a bad thing

[meager flame]

which i could see blowing up in their face quick

[sick moon]

What are you talking about? A huge portion of the playerbase played to swap. Swap rates and dmm sucess are closely tied together

[meager flame]

but idk i also think theres way more people into playing a league like pvm experience than there are people that want to pvp

so it also might work out

[chrome lantern]

That doesn't mean it's a good thing

[sick moon]

We have leagues already, they can just play that

[meager flame]

well idk if you noticed but temporary modes are more and more just a rehash of like

concepts from each other

[sick moon]

Elaborate

[chrome lantern]

If you need swapping for DMM to be successful then I would say it's just fundamentally flawed as a gamemode lmao

It should be self-contained

[sick moon]

So making them more similar is better?

[meager flame]

no im saying they are more similar in general

just like as a fact

[sick moon]

We dont "need" swapping for dmm to be great, but its the biggest incentive for most people that play. I dont understand what improvement you're trying to insinuate here

[meager flame]

some of the headline dmm changes are hey heres stuff you had in leagues and gridmaster

[sick moon]

The whole premise behind dmm was that it was meant to be risky. But making it suicide friendly just turned it into an 07 pvp world with a few extra steps

[main sail]

yes you are 100% correct

swapping made it fun

[chrome lantern]

Isn't the purpose of the last DMM and this one having rewards to shift the incentive to rewards? Among the many other changes, "nerfing" swapping seems to be in-line with affecting how people play the game by actually needing to interact with the world to progress instead of just clanning and swapping in money and muling.

[sick moon]

Name one reward you're excited about

go on

[chrome lantern]

Did you notice how the Armageddon weapon scroll was worth 180m? lmao

Even if you don't like these rewards you can get the previous ones

[meager flame]

thats partially due to the lack of interest in dmm

[sick moon]

Exactly. so they can make money on 07, as i pointed out a few minutes ago

[chrome lantern]

But I do think a TON of people will go for the crystal kits and PoH theme

[meager flame]

that scroll was probably more popular than the event was

[chrome lantern]

I mean it's not all about making money either

But even for making money

The focus should be more on the rewards than swapping

Which is what they're shifting towards

[sick moon]

Name one reward thats non gp related you're excited about then?

[meager flame]

i mean i want the poh theme on my iron

[chrome lantern]

Not really relevant, but I know a ton of people that are ironmen so it's not gp-related if it's your only way to get it

[main sail]

are the runious prayers going to make cox pointless?

[sick moon]

nice, this pvp game mode is tailored to ~20,000 ironmen

[meager flame]

well

[sick moon]

who are all excited for poh recolours

[chrome lantern]

But again, if the main draw is main-game GP then Jagex should (and has been) focusing on making more ways to get rewarded without having to do unofficial swapping

[meager flame]

thats probably more people than participate in pvp lol unfortunately

so if jagex really was doing that

i can see the logic

even if i might not really like it

[chrome lantern]

Like if Jagex is relying on swapping to draw people to their gamemode that's just asking for failure

Because it's not something they can control themselves

Is it likely to work out for a lot of people? Sure. But it's the same rationale behind Jagex making their own official client better rather than relying wholly on RuneLite

How are they supposed to promote DMM as a gamemode if the only draw is that you can do what only seems to an outsider like a shady deal in the back alley to swap money

[meager flame]

but yeah idk personally i think we get too many temp modes already

feel like im kinda on the cosmetics rotation doing one every few months

and they're all starting to look the same lmao

its weird too because they're actually fairly spaced out usually but like

somehow it doesn't actually feel that way

[sick moon]

Soo what did you guys agree on

still no better example than recolour rewards?

Gee i didnt know 50k players were all excited to play dmm to recolour their swords and poh

[chrome lantern]

I mean as far as I can tell your only point is that you think you're going to make less money so the entire PvP gamemode is unplayable now

When the focus should be on encouraging people to actually get involved with PvP and enjoy the content

As far as I can tell, making swapping less required is only a good thing

[sick moon]

My point is less people will play if there is less to gain from it. Most people dont enjoy pvp, so what do you expect them to do?

Im literally standing up for both the pkers and the skillers/regular osrs players

You're advocating for neither

[meager flame]

i mean its a super well known thing that most regular players aren't swapping and just play a few days for the rush to start dmm

then its basically ghost town

dmm is not very popular

[sick moon]

The rush is due to the risk. So you took that rush away. Good job, i guess?

[chrome lantern]

I'll be real, last DMM I had absolutely 0 interest in PvP because I didn't have any team and I knew that my gear would never last more than a few hours at most. I would never pay money to swap if I don't think I'm going to win fights and get more gear/money. The entire point is to incentivize people to try it out more, and this actually makes that more reasonable to get to.

I do think that the changes make it more enticing to actually try to fight back

[sick moon]

So what was your reason for playing?

[chrome lantern]

It was fun

[meager flame]

ya i mean i expect your regular guy to have more fun like this and probably not quit on their first death

[chrome lantern]

I did a lot of stuff that wasn't PvP, I did the breaches

I lost every single fight I ever got into

[sick moon]

Why didnt you go into the wildy on the main game instead? why dmm

[chrome lantern]

I don't find killing bots and pvmers fun

And I'm not proficient at PvP

[main sail]

They ruined the rush/thrill of DMM and just turned it into leagues with pvp enabled

[sick moon]

Then what made you quit?

[meager flame]

ya the big thing here

is that is probably more popular than dmm

[chrome lantern]

DMM?

[meager flame]

remains to be seen though

[sick moon]

Yes

[chrome lantern]

I stopped doing last DMM because I had a bad build and I got oneshot by everyone lmao

My hp was too low for one thing

[sick moon]

So your issue wasnt the game mode mechanics, you just didnt make the right choices

[main sail]

The changes will 100% result in more ppl playing but I feel like it will just be a mind numbing grind fest for points for 90% of people, the only difference is that it will probably take longer, so people will play longer

[chrome lantern]

That's part of it but a bigger part is that it was just swarmed with clans

Felt pointless to even try to do anything as a solo player

[sick moon]

I played solo and didnt run into much trouble, anyway what does this have to do with bank keys

[chrome lantern]

I would spend some time skilling to get some basic stuff back, shove it in the deposit box, and never touch anything in my deposit box

[floral blaze]

Swarmed with clans? You could avoid them by just not going into multi, unless you were planning to win #1 finale or something

[chrome lantern]

I didn't intentionally go into multi, but for one thing at the time nobody really knew where Varlamore multi lines were last time

And you'd best believe that the "singles breach" in Varlamore had clans immediately pile everyone that stepped in multi on accident

[round lintel]

Then you pk someone with 120 Turtle shells, and 1k Fish chunks, etc trash keys they have

[sick moon]

So some bank keys suck therefore we should completely remove them all, along with all the good keys? What kind of logic is this?

[round lintel]

Some? most of people going outside were either muling or having trash inflated prices loot to not risk anything and then you have the streamers being fed in max gear while u go on mystics because they bank keys sucks for 99% of the time

there is no fun on that

[chrome lantern]

It's just eliminating the unfun parts of putting your entire net worth into your deposit box or muling your stuff

[sick moon]

Did you even get any kills last dmm, serious question? Even though people muled, the keys were still not that bad, Most people who you find risking will have a lot of stuff in their bank

[round lintel]

I did both check my rank 🙂 "shad0wbanned"

[sick moon]

All your keys being shit must mean you only killed 1 item noobs, most people who put effort into the game wont face that problem

If jagex really wanted to fix the muling issue they can easily tie powerups/advantages that are based on their risk so it wouldnt make sense to risk nothing

[round lintel]

I play solo, not in clans at all. People i fought all good for was the loot when I killed them not in the keys with chittins and turtle shells

and I died several time to rot

With their max gears

[sick moon]

chitin and turtle shells were blacklisted to not appear in keys after a while

any junk filler can be hotfixed

[floral blaze]

Rightfully so, not knowing it was a multi zone is a skill issue, besides there were other ways to get to Varlamore than just the bird. The fairy ring isn't multi. It's disingenuous to say that clans swarmed last DMM simply because of one incident the whole DMM where people were unaware of multi zones

[sick moon]

you still havent given a solid argument for removing bank keys

literally not one

[hard axle]

it enables everyone to prep for finals and have max, rather than just those who mule

what's so hard about that

[meager flame]

i mean it boils down to most people not really enjoying dmm as it was to begin with

less risk will likely make this way more popular this time

[sick moon]

There is no final 1v1 fight, and if its multi you'd be in a clan anyway. invalid point

[meager flame]

its probably that simple for jagex

[round lintel]

idk why keys are so important to you, to be honest idc about the keys i rather get someone with what they have and bank rather than wasting space on 3-5 keys that I would believe are good cuz pker was risking to find out it was dog shit

[hard axle]

what was it, last dmm that had a few jokers in like rune and green dhide?

or the one that had 1v1s

2 ago?

[sick moon]

The premise behind DMM was that it was risky, as i pointed out earlier

[meager flame]

yeah but that doesn't matter

they're just gonna do what they think the players will be into

[sick moon]

Skull timers are only 5 mins, why is that so hard to wait, and if you didnt care about it then just destroy it? You still havent made any valid point

[hard axle]

exactly, the advantage was made even more extreme because not only did they have max/near max from muling, but they also have clan advantage

[sick moon]

So only people who are in a clan can mule? huh?

[floral blaze]

Frankly I can think of more than one incident where people did get caught with their pants down, Falador entrance near the farm and inside the Falador farm were multi zones people weren't aware of. I got baited into the farm myself and it's the only multi death I had, couldn't even be mad about it - was a skill issue.

[round lintel]

I said you have 3-5 keys thinking they are good due to pker risking out there and when u go to find out has nothing good for. Has nothing whether u can tank skull or not to open one key. XD I wouldnt stop after 1 key

[sick moon]

Then that's your choice. If you truly thought the key sucked, you have plenty of time to destory it during your 70 sec grace period. Still dont see your point

[round lintel]

I dont see yours thinking removing keys is not a good choice.

this goes both way

[sick moon]

And you havent stated one reason why your point prevails

[round lintel]

You neither

so?

[meager flame]

i mean tbh i dont really think dmm finals is a very serious event anyways

[hard axle]

are you saying it's not easier to mule as a clan?

[meager flame]

im sure some people feel like it is but like

[hard axle]

you know, 20+ people gathering key pieces and then sharing it versus 1 solo andy?

[meager flame]

its not a very competitive format

[sick moon]

Your argument is to remove something that other people care about at the expense of you removing something that doesnt effect you. The overall satisfaction is reduced for literally zero rationelle

There ya go

[meager flame]

especially since the participants cant help themselves and ddos the servers trying to win

every time