game-update

[jovial sentinel]

And then you have masterpieces in story like hellblade.

And gameplay like celeste

[slender vapor]

Expedition 33

[jovial sentinel]

Ive heard thats good, but cant deal with gameplay, so cant comment on it 😦

[slender vapor]

[jovial sentinel]

I hate QTEs in my turn based strategy

[slender vapor]

You really have to dig deep to find any kind of negativity about the game

[fossil epoch]

too old for fast clicks

[jovial sentinel]

Oh yeah, most people just dislike the gameplay and move on, and thats great.

Theres not much to be said when its just 'not my game'

Its clearly a contender for goty

[slender vapor]

I grew up with legend of dragoon, QTE's in a strategy game is something i'm shocked hasn't happened again earlier

[jovial sentinel]

Urgh, i just hate it

I want turn based to be choice based only.

Adding the qte is just unneccary. Its not adding to strategy, and now means you need to be paying attention constantly

[slender vapor]

Yes, it's certainly a drastic shift and it might not be for you, but for a lot of people it's cool and novel and it's gonna spawn a ton of copycats

[lament peak]

Oh, you're one of those types. Noted.

[slender vapor]

Have fun shadowboxing any preconceived phantom of me in your head

[hazy plover]

Elden Ring, BG3, Spider man 2 all sold really well recently lol veilguard just wasn't a game people wanted

[slender vapor]

Dustborn and concord were games no one wanted either

Like, watching the videogame market right now, there's a clear pattern for games succeeding or failing in the current market

[hazy plover]

Yup cause concord was a paid game without hot characters and overwatch is free

I didn't pay any attention to dustborn lol

[slender vapor]

It's honestly for the better, you actually missed nothing of value

[plush gull]

wonder what the pride event will be like next week

[jovial sentinel]

The clear pattern for games succeeding or not succeeding is them being fun. Or fun enough to make up for anything forced in whatever direction.

And yeah, 33 is definitely good enough that its going to spawn loads of bad turn based games with little understanding of the genre, cant wait. Hopefully it sparks confidence in some devs that do

[plush gull]

maybe we've finally had enough tweaks to contract fights to take another look at contract acquisition next week

[hasty shard]

veilguard

[vestal jetty]

@winter hearth Something should be done to make yama contracts more worthy, as prices are so low atm

[hasty shard]

good

[hazy plover]

I find it kinda crazy how cheap oathplate seems to be compared to torva lol

[plush gull]

contracts should be free

[jovial sentinel]

Its almost like pain in getting the gear is part of the cost, rather than just power

[fossil epoch]

Yeh, i think it more shows how terrible it is to grind for nex gear, how its only done by a small group of players and bots.
And if those bots didnt exist, a big part of the players who has bought torva wouldnt have torva

[plush gull]

blorva kit should be usable on infernal cape to make it look like black cape from highwayman

[winged mantle]

I would kill for inferno cape transmog that works with skillcapes

[shadow fiber]

I wonder if jagex would be open to making the resource contracts (aether + worms) avaliable outside the dosier, for ironmen it would reduce the amount of incidental oathplate coming into the game as they could target farm the resources they want. e.g. On my kill times in a duo I get around 50 worms an hour and you use around 400 worms when actually fishing. Outside of those resource acquisition contracts it really doesn't seem worth the time investment, maybe someone could convince me otherwise

[tacit wharf]

both sire and leviathan are going to have aether rune catalyst drops for the summoner sweep up to help a little there

[fossil epoch]

Yeh i suspect that jagex is planning to have even more sources of the worms and the catalyst aswell, considering they werent even added to yamas collection log, so it seems like they want to make them a sort of common drop

[earnest marsh]

yo goblin, any update on when the delay on moving while doing a action will get fixed?

[fossil epoch]

is that something they have said they are working on?

[shadow fiber]

tbf that is nice, I really hope they add more sources for the worms as well, really they are a much bigger deal imo especially for irons which I feel are the target anyway

[graceful knot]

will weird exceptions like the emberlight nerf for yama be hopefully less common going forward? hyped for the delve boss, would suck if it also had weird exceptions like nerfed for emberlight or something

[sacred oracle]

Aether runes are very expensive right now, so more sources will bring the price down to something that feels much better to use

Worms are already pretty cheap. More sources not really needed as much (though maybe we'll get them)

[fossil epoch]

well worms are an ironman update anyway.
Mains get their anglers from bot farms

[sacred oracle]

Worms make anglerfish very good for heron

And they're cheap enough that you still profit

So it's in a good spot

[fossil epoch]

That is true, but the amount of pet hunters dont make a very high % of the amount of anglers used, would be my guess

[sacred oracle]

I would just like to preserve what little value the worms have personally

[fossil epoch]

yeh, they are kinda tied to the price of anglers though, i doubt the shark version we are getting will be worth very much either

[hard axle]

Was gonna say this because it’s unironically 2nd BIS outside of 2t swordies

Anglers are too good imo for shark catalyst to work because they heal more and they overheal

you need a new fish that offers something different or more

like 40 hp heal

And no, it’s not that busted because food delay will make hard food almost always worse if you have to eat during a fight

[shadow fiber]

Shark catalyst seems good tbh, mostly for ironmen, you won't use it beyond a certain point but that's really the nature of getting access to higher level food

[hard axle]

I think there should always be a variety of supplies when possible

[fossil epoch]

i wouldnt be surprised if we get a new fish with sailing that is better than angler in some way

[hard axle]

For example, moonlight antelope meat heals 26, but delays 50%+ of the heal

[hard axle]

Maybe new worms enhance the existing fish somehow idk

[shadow fiber]

sure but that also requires very high hunter

[hard axle]

eh Hunter is never too off considering the xp rates

[fossil epoch]

you could make a 23 healing fish that didnt overheal, and angler would still be good

[hard axle]

yeah that’s what I’m saying

[shadow fiber]

you're not wrong but you only have so much time in a week and it'll come down to where you allocate your time, most people don't put active hunter high on the list

[fossil epoch]

i think "most" people just train their skills randomly

[shadow fiber]

to a point, but generally I see people neglecting skilling until a new activity is released or a content creator highlights something

[meager flame]

useless though

you can already get a very large number of sharks/hr with minnows

[shadow fiber]

definitely not useless, I can afk karams while working but minnows would draw too much of my attention to focus on actually getting work done, I expect sharks catalyst will be better for afking

[meager flame]

getting hard food basically isnt even an obstacle on an iron

its pretty much specifically anglers

if you're cool with using something else its super easy and pretty much impossible to run out

mostly because you'll usually just eat karambwans and if you need combo food or just more hp that isn't brews

you'll have looted like a trillion sharks or mantas or whatever

like im pretty close to being done with pvm on an iron

and i still have food i got from drops

[shadow fiber]

maybe it would be the case if I'd focused on pvm first but my main goal after quest cape is achievement diaries, which I'm currently working on

[hasty shard]

can they let hunter meats overheal though

[hard axle]

I wish they healed over time

Like 1 hp every 15s for 6 minutes

[shadow fiber]

on worms again - I feel like the scarcity is the factor that is currently maintaining the price for mains, the "buyable" pet aspect is going to be a tiny percentage of consumer intent. If you wanted the price to be higher then I feel like there needs to be something else that appeals to the wider main audience and the only thing I can really think of is better xp/hr

[hard axle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/510662236696608770/1382671726005190676/DUKEIFHEWASIMPOSSIBLE.gif

[hard axle]

Reduced XP

Is not better than solo tempoross with Crystal harpoon iirc

[chrome lantern]

My experience with worms on iron is that I barely have more worms than kc

[hard axle]

At the very least, the contracts should be substantially more than 250

https://tenor.com/view/cheese-cat-gif-10509136336940662808

[small anvil]

Yeah diabolic worms are gonna be long term at a price that's lower profit than fishing. anglers with regular worms

Unless new sources come

[meager flame]

i have like

4400 worms i think in like 800 kc of sometimes duo sometimes solo

[lament peak]

are diabolic worms more profitable for bots? i know it's like one of the skilling methods that has nearly 0 requirements

[small anvil]

At current prices you make more per hour just using regular sand worms I expect

It being bis heron chances means the demand outstrips supply I think

[meager flame]

tbh part of me just looks at all of it like

idk what jagex is even trying to do anymore

[small anvil]

I don't find the worms objectionable per se

Just kinda low quantities

And the contract is like tiny

[meager flame]

i dont really think anything is wrong with it but it just seems so

idk what the right word for it is

like they tune fishing exp they make these worms to make it go a little faster

and talk about pet chance

and blah blah

but really who cares fishing sucks lol

[lament peak]

it would be neat if they were untradable but you could grow more worms in a compost bin

[small anvil]

I don't think they talked about pet chance that I heard

It was an iron oriented thing

But it is nice for non iron for pet chance

[meager flame]

i mean it is an iron thing but at the same time

i think i have more worms than i've ever eaten anglers on my iron

[lament peak]

that's crazy

[meager flame]

they're just super optional and dont even matter so the whole thing is just

a lot about nothing

[small anvil]

That's cuz you probably just don't use them much

If you pre pot angler in all your content it would be different

[meager flame]

yeah i basically only use anglers to prepot if i really care about something

like i'd prepot anglers for speed kills going for certain CAs

[lament peak]

i've fished over 100k anglers and use them liberally, they're pretty nice at dt2 bosses

[meager flame]

stuff like that

the truth though about food in osrs

basically if you get karambwans and brews you can do everything

[thick beacon]

hm anglers is it even per hour with flakes/worms?

[limber briar]

That's wild I thought my 44k was impressive

[craggy wind]

https://tenor.com/view/hmmm-shook-shocked-gif-13010143

[lament peak]

it was one of my comfort afks while playing other games.
less clicks involved to afk than karambwans, it's similar to redwoods but wayyy less xp/hr

[jovial sentinel]

At least we know this might change to some degree with sailing. Hopefully of the new fish, its not just some bwan thats better though. Multiple new fish makes it likely

[lament peak]

Why are chromium ingots still on the dt2 drop table 😭 it feels so awful to see one now

[vestal ruin]

Cant go making vestiges more common 🥲

[chrome lantern]

Ingots should've been deleted before they existed, then also every day thereafter

[vivid ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/agreed-gif-10232471137596575681

[chrome lantern]

Even mains don't enjoy getting them, and they just counteract the drop-rate normalization of vestige mechanics for ironmen

At worst, they should've made a ring-base that's exchangeable like godsword hilts

But really no reason for them to exist at all

Like is this a joke

If a year ago they just replaced all of them with 100k gp drops, it wouldn't have been too late to make the change

[slender vapor]

Can't wait for the extra uses for them that jagex talked about

Surely that become a great drop

[chrome lantern]

psure they gave up on the uses when they made them trivial to craft instead of fixing them existing

Smeltable was the worst outcome

Honestly worse than doing nothing because now they can pretend it isn't an issue

[sacred oracle]

I don't mind them. They're just a junk drop, every boss has them

Only irons really hate them, and I'm not really interested in balancing the game around irons

[chrome lantern]

There's no functional reason for it to exist other than explicitly to screw unlucky irons

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah i woulda preferred em to not be smithable

but oh well, seemed like everyone hated em anyway

[chrome lantern]

It doesn't take a statistician to see them go to alch value quickly

[sacred oracle]

It's just a junk drop. Everyone boss has em

[nocturne solstice]

Things going to alch value isn't necessarily a "bad" thing, its just a thing.

[sacred oracle]

equivalent of snakeskin drops at zulrah

[chrome lantern]

Big difference between a "Junk drop" and a "junk drop required to get BiS gear"

[tribal tide]

So I can't post screenshots, but Jagex managed to stuff up the Crafting level-up guide and it's showing Theiving menu options

[sacred oracle]

only irons really seem to care much about it

[chrome lantern]

That's the whole point

Mains don't even care about it

[sacred oracle]

and i'm not interested in tweaking every drop around irons, who seem to have an endless store of complaints about every drop that doesn't let them get something

it's a bit of a bugbear with me

[tacit wharf]

yes its in the update post

[tribal tide]

nvm then - ty

[chrome lantern]

There's a difference between "tweaking the game for irons" and explicitly making a system that only exists to screw irons

And directly counteracts the stated intent of drop rate normalization on vestiges

[nocturne solstice]

Well it was low value even before the smithability cause it was way more frequent drop than the required BiS thing

Alch value is 30k, it was already 40k before it was smithable

[chrome lantern]

Yes, because smithing costs many times more

It's a band-aid that should never need to exist

[sacred oracle]

i just know i see irons constantly talking about every drop in the game, constantly wanting to change it to accommodate it for themselves, for a game mode they chose for its challenge, yet they are always wanting to affect mainscape, and perhaps it is unfair but i am completely unreceptive to it at this point

perhaps the devs aren't though

[nocturne solstice]

No im saying its weird to bring up alch value and smithability when it was already at alch value basically.

im not even disagreeing with you on it not needing to be smithable

[sacred oracle]

may be worth submitting something in #1022203837265756231, which i hear the jmods read

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah I do think there needs to be less iron catering

[chrome lantern]

I'll be clear

I agree

Less catering is good

[nocturne solstice]

There's alot of threads asking for irons to access GE prices for items

[chrome lantern]

This isn't about catering, it's about explicitly designing a system to screw people over

[winged mantle]

Any iron asking for ge use is out of their depth

[nocturne solstice]

Who is it screwing over? It was already alch value

im not disagreeing im just not understanding who the victim is

[chrome lantern]

The alch value is irrelevant

[nocturne solstice]

ok we'll move on from alch price

[sacred oracle]

it's not explicitly designed to screw anyone over any more than snakeskin drop is designed to screw anyone over: it's just not a good drop

it's okay for not-good drops to exist

i feel like only irons view not-good drops as some sort of affront to the game mode they chose

[winged mantle]

They could have made the drops remain at the same rate to attain just adjust the table and make vestiges in shards

[sacred oracle]

whereas people playing the normal game just shrug and go "time to kill it again and get a better drop"

[chrome lantern]

And I did

[nocturne solstice]

Nah bro mains just buy off GE

[chrome lantern]

Jagex stated intent: Vestige rolls are 3 rolls for invicible rolls at vestige, to make you less likely to go dry and less likely to spoon.
What we get instead:
You can get the vestige, but still get screwed over on the ingots.

You don't need snakeskin to make an Ultor ring, I don't even know why you're talking about it. The fact is, that ingots are:
-An integral resource for producing BiS items
-Made nearly worthless by the statistical fact that vestige drop mechanics guarantee that many times more ingots exist than vestiges
-The low value inherent to the poor drop design makes them not a factor at all on mains, but a significant limiting factor for irons, while providing no positive value to the game. Adding a smelting method shows that Jagex doesn't care about Vestiges as an actual resource limit for making BiS rings.
-The smelting process should've not come into being, and they should've just removed ingots instead

I personally went and finished all 4 dts bosses (other than pets)

I ended up getting enough ingots, after going dry on my final axe piece. I didn't get enough ingots to use all my vestiges, and at the point I had all 4 vestiges, I only had 7 ingots

That doesn't change the fact that we have a resource that even Jagex doesn't care about, that never should have existed in the first place

[sacred oracle]

everything you're describing is an iron problem

which is fine

[winged mantle]

All the homies hate chromium ingorts

[sacred oracle]

i'm just uninclined to change the game to accommodate iron problems

[chrome lantern]

Solving an "iron problem" is not the same as "catering"

[sacred oracle]

however, perhaps other people will agree with you

[chrome lantern]

"Catering" is Scar essence

Catering is dpick at KQ

[sacred oracle]

ty for discussing respectfully, that doesn't always happen in this channel

[chrome lantern]

I voted no on both of those

[winged mantle]

The ingots felt like a way for them to slow down vestige rings coming into the game

[chrome lantern]

Yes, ultimately though, you are right - it is an "iron problem" - but it wasn't a problem that needed to exist for anyone

It was statistically impossible for ingots to be a limiting resource

On anyone but irons

It doesn't add to the challenge of getting a vestige at all, and statistically, by drop rates the expected value to get 3 ingots is the same as a vestige - but it pushes out the expected kc to get both a vestige and 3 ingots

[limber briar]

The d pick change was crazy, what is wrong with scar ess? more money leaves the game and irons don't have to world hop buy from shop?

[chrome lantern]

Really the answer is that skilling is no long er the main way people get things, except maybe bots, and instead of trying to address that (if it’s even possible), they just made it easier to buy stuff. It’s basically the same outcome as smelting Chromium ingots. It’s content that was added literally only to make iron shophopping not a thing - which is pretty much the definition of catering

Has it seen use more recently with Aether RC? Sure

But that wasn’t the intent

[limber briar]

ahh so you're problem is the catering gotcha

your*

[chrome lantern]

Chromium smelting was a catering solution to a problem that never should’ve existed

Yeah there’s definitely too much catering I agreed with Tramayne there

[limber briar]

I don't see the scar ess so much as catering vs ingot but to each their own

i do agree the way they did ingots is ass

[chrome lantern]

I will definitely say shophopping sucks but it’s definitely a catering solution

[limber briar]

I see it more as a QOL than catering whereas ingot is more catering to me

but i can see why you see it that way

[true talon]

There is only one iron catering system currently that being scar ess.

[nocturne solstice]

Id say there's a lot of things that cater to irons, not just scar ess

[true talon]

Stuff like dupe protection or tradeable armor fragments, is not catering irons specifically, its catering cloggers and players in general.

[nocturne solstice]

Oathplate being craftable also comes to mind

[limber briar]

what's the harm it's doing when more money is leaving the game than just doing shopscape? (scar ess)

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah im not to fussed about scar ess

[true talon]

Oathplate crafting is not iron catering, its creating a economy and skilling method thats profitable.

[jovial sentinel]

iron catering generally makes the game more fun

'generally'

[nocturne solstice]

It can be all those things and iron catering.

[true talon]

You need to look at a system as who it benefits specifically to call it iron catering.
Currently its scar ess and ingot crafting.

[jovial sentinel]

sure, it can, but is the problem then that you arnt getting that fun?

[nocturne solstice]

It seems to benefit people who are dry at yama with oathplate which is primarily a concern for irons.

Since you know, mains can buy it

[jovial sentinel]

becuase the game is mostly catering to non iron playstyles.

[true talon]

its not, because without it the shale mining method wouldnt be profitable, oathplate shards exist to create a profitable mining method.

its not only an iron system

irons do benefit from it, but that is not its purpose.

[nocturne solstice]

Yes it wouldnt exist, we'd just have the worms for a "profitable" skilling method.

[jovial sentinel]

whats funny is how much complaining there is about iron catering, when theres been pvp catering thats actually making the game worse.

[nocturne solstice]

THey could also have just made oathplate chargescape with us mining for shale like venator bow

But this way of doing things helps irons more

[jovial sentinel]

whats the problem with that?

[nocturne solstice]

Nothing

[true talon]

worms arent a iron catering either, its a enhanced catch rate to speed up pet rolls and also try to have boss drop something that is not hard raw food.

[jovial sentinel]

its more you said you'd want less iron catering

but when mains are effected evenly, the choice that makes irons feel better is the right one

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah less would be nice since imo it overcomplicates things but at the end of the day im not too fussed about any of it.

[jovial sentinel]

idk if it does overcomplicate things though

there might be a complex path, but you can also just kill the boss

[nocturne solstice]

Have you done oathplate smithing? haha

Weird as heck

[jovial sentinel]

but its a 'complex' alternate path

[true talon]

Iron catering is a system design solely for ironmen, which is basically scar ess and ingot crafting. however with soul runes reaching nearly 400 each. scar ess might see some use for souls. at very least keep it under 400 ech.

[jovial sentinel]

but yeah, the smithing mechanic is a little weird, but also unrelated to it helping irons

[true talon]

ingot crafting is just a band aid to a terrible system

should have removed ingots off tables long time ago

[nocturne solstice]

Why is it unrelated to helping irons when it's basically dry protection?

[jovial sentinel]

the system is to help irons, sure

the way its performed is unrelated

[true talon]

because no1 likes to be dry, same for mains. you dont want to do 1200 yama and have nothing to show for it lol.

its not just an iron thing, if it was the shards and shale would have beeen untradeable.

[jovial sentinel]

as in, complex bar crafting specifically is not catering to irons.

a mechanic as dry protection, is. it could be as simple as clicking the two things together and it would be similar in terms of how it helps irons

all that complexity is purely to help mains.

because its making an annoying system for tradable items

[nocturne solstice]

I think how its done should be related an overcomplicated system was necessary for balancing everything. The drop rates, the price, etc etc

[true talon]

Its a very bias view if you see a QOL change as iron catering, when it improved the content for everyone.

[jovial sentinel]

its only necessary because they wanted to make a profitable method

[nocturne solstice]

I suppose, I dont think Jagex predicts the market price of things very well tho

[jovial sentinel]

and for it to be profitable, it has to be annoying, shop limited, low rate to due drops, or involve gathering untradable materials.

[true talon]

yea if they didnt want the profitable mining method, then shale and shards coulda been untradeable and the fragments needed to make armor could have been reduced.

[jovial sentinel]

its a few of those

if it needed to be harder to balance for irons, they could have just changed rates.

[true talon]

They shouldnt really care tbh. they should only care if the boss is fun and players enjoy it.

[jovial sentinel]

i mean, they have specifically said that they are keeping some things unfun because they think making it fun would negatively impact profit lol

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah but they take forever to change the rates, look at Toa.
I will say though, they did change Yama rates really quickly on the crafting side

So they're doing better

[jovial sentinel]

changing rates implies it would be a different rate at launch

[true talon]

if you try to design something that will sustain market value (market value is player driven btw) then you just make items so extremelyrare and niche that the content is not fun to grind (aka next/phosani)

[nocturne solstice]

I think it was 7 plates before and it took a few days for it to change to 9 plates per piece

[jovial sentinel]

if they didnt have the annoying barmaking in the first place, and raised the rate, it would have been that way before launch. so.. not sure why you said that

[nocturne solstice]

well, you'd change the drop rate based on intended value and ease of content

[true talon]

id argue that 1b for 6 str bonus is a pretty big extreme.

well nex is as easy as yama, might even be easier.

yama is not all that easy....

[jovial sentinel]

yeah, nex is mostly annoying

[nocturne solstice]

Because you said "If it needed to be harder to balance for irons, they could just changed the rates" and they did

[jovial sentinel]

again, assuming they didnt put in something as you said, to balance it, the rates would have been changed.

'prelaunch'

at the decisionmaking phase

[nocturne solstice]

Well the rates were determined to be okay pre-launch, hence why it was changed after because it wasnt okay. Which is related to my comment about then not being that great at predicting market value of items pre-launch

[true talon]

they thought the rates were ok, because they thought it be 8 min solo and 5 min duo lmao

[jovial sentinel]

im not sure why you're overcomplicating my point so much

because all of 'that' is theoredical pre-launch

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah true, then people discovered all the fly methods n stuff

[true talon]

and all the problems contracts introduced, meaning they wasted a full month fixing that crap over doing anything to base yama

[nocturne solstice]

I just feel like you're making a theoretical point when we have actual historical evidence of your point not being the case.

[true talon]

thankfully base yama was fairly good by itself

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah I enjoy base yama, the contracts were pretty controversial

I made profit off them tho so im happy

[true talon]

contracts just ruined the content

[jovial sentinel]

the point is, complex mechanic thing thats made for mains and tradables, which isnt specifically for irons, if that didnt exist and it needed different balance, it would have been balanced that way to begin with

the devs also said when they introduced it that it was designed that way specifically to be a moneymaker.

[nocturne solstice]

Ok I see what you mean, I just don't agree with it. If we remove all that "complex mechanic" stuff and drops and rates. My main point why it's iron catering is because it's bad rng protection since that's the main roadblock for irons when it comes to gear.

[jovial sentinel]

yeah, its more that you're combining dupe protection and crafting.

im seperating them, because they dont need to both exist

either can exist without the other

[nocturne solstice]

If they did want to make a skilling money method for mains there are ways to do that without it being dupe/bad rng protection like aformentioned chargescape or some other consumable resource crafting.

[jovial sentinel]

dupe protect = iron mechanic.
complex bar making = mains profit from skilling

[nocturne solstice]

Yeah i agree with that

[jovial sentinel]

yeah, i agree with that too

they could put it elsewhere

[nocturne solstice]

[jovial sentinel]

the devs have imo been making pretty weird decisions lately overall.

[true talon]

its not dupe protection is for cloggers aswell

[jovial sentinel]

you're not wrong

but cloggers are under 1% of the population

[true talon]

extreme cloggers maybe'

[jovial sentinel]

id argue that making drops easier to get is actually an anti clogging mechanic

the difficulty is part of the lure.

[true talon]

but everyone likes to get clogs or not be stuck at 1 activity for long periods of time

sometimes its extreme like i have 5 oath helms atm

[jovial sentinel]

yeah, thats just rng

[nocturne solstice]

Iunno i feel thats moreso an iron problem since for mains/cloggers its just money

its not as bad getting dupes

[jovial sentinel]

i feel like getting dupes and being sad is weird anyways

dupes dont mean you would have rolled it without some weird protection mechanic

(moons)

[hard axle]

wtf we saying lmao. the shards don't exist for cloggers because when you make it, you don't get the collection log slot.

it was uniquely an iron thing and then they decided to slap it on to be tradeable

[hard axle]

yeah like, you can absolutely add skilling without needing to add bad luck protection. torva is a good example if there was an actual training method that wasnt just breaking down bcp into components

[nocturne solstice]

Nah i think their point was dupe protection in regards to the cloggers thing

I still think dupe protection is also more iron catering than cloggers tho 🤔

[hard axle]

It is because cloggers are far less of the population than they think, whereas irons have been shown to be ranging from 22-25%

[rain fulcrum]

Surely they could have calced the emberlite DPS on the assumption people will figure it out

[nocturne solstice]

Get out of my head

[chrome lantern]

I do think both irons and clogging have distinct negative impacts on how they design content though

[rain fulcrum]

Just seems like incompetence from jagex

[hard axle]

clog is a joke ever since they outright refused to add certain unlocks to it, and even CAs are becoming like that

[rain fulcrum]

Yet another w11 choke on good (for me) pace

[nocturne solstice]

They probably could have, I just consider it underestimating the player base moreso than incompetence.

[hard axle]

DT2 had all 4 awakened bosses as tasks, Yama has 1/8 sigil contracts

[rain fulcrum]

[hard axle]

[rain fulcrum]

Love pacing and then they all spawn in a fuckin line

[hard axle]

I don't want to say incompetence, but it's more that they sometimes cater to folks whose interest are misaligned with their playstyles

especially the blorva kit debacle where their rationale was "dont add to clog because its too hard for average folks"

[rain fulcrum]

Incompetence to not calc ttk with the bis weapon

To see what times ppl will get

Like even if they couldn't figure out donofly

They should have seen the theoretical damage of emberlite

[hard axle]

the -1t on bombs also made it kinda hairy, but yeah

[rain fulcrum]

I think we were exceeding their kph before people even figured that out

[hard axle]

Yeah, even without factoring in phase transitions + damage reduction, it should've been hp/dps for maximum average time

If emberlight does 10 dps, would've been 4 minutes 10 seconds in a solo

[tiny epoch]

even camping shadow its like 3.30 duos or something right

[sacred oracle]

What are examples of this?

[nocturne solstice]

gotr existing

[chrome lantern]

I don't even think that's an ironman thing though

[small anvil]

That was rc training has no variety and rates suck

[obsidian venture]

Yeah gotr helped irons but isn't iron catering per say

Was a good alternative way besides afk bloods/souls and lava rc

and or zmi

[nocturne solstice]

PerryMoon dupe protection is also nice

[lament peak]

gotr is the second worst skilling minigame, next to mixology

[nocturne solstice]

small iron catering is nice

[chrome lantern]

I mean that's just as much for cloggers as irons but I have many issues with moons

[nocturne solstice]

To quote the rat

[chrome lantern]

All my friends from my old clan became cloggers or quit shrug

I see a ton of them

[lament peak]

Clogging is just taking a main account to its logical conclusion, post max. Otherwise what reason is there to continue

[hard axle]

what the fuck

are u talking about

gotr is literally goated as fuck

I did traditional rc to 99 twice

[jovial sentinel]

gotr is a good one people have said, but moons id argue is (even if it is a little too far).
its mostly on the track that (for mains) it doesnt matter if you get the drop if profit is high, but profit can be moved. and if progression is entirely based on profit, you do the weird calculation of what is the more bearable but also most profitable method to do. how much fun will you sacrifice?
keeping in mind that profit can be whatever it needs to, progression of getting the drop, or getting the supplies can much more easily be controlled to being fun, enjoyable or whatever it needs to be much more easily, because its not competing with every source of income in the game (the iron premise).
moving towards ironscape, imo, means that mains can more easily do more irongameplay as desired, and enjoy the best of both worlds, making the game more fun in general.

i know you asked examples, but i think the philosophy (even if at a very basic) answers that much better

[hard axle]

even if the rates aren't wintertodt level, the low intensity and actual gameplay loop makes gotr good as fuck

there's a lot of micro efficiencies you can cap out, even on mass worlds

i dont think gort is iron catering, but rather just a new training method for us lazy fucks

[chrome lantern]

RC good skill even before gotr

[hasty shard]

why the fuck are you comparing a snakeskin drop to a literal unique on the unique table that makes a unique jingle sound when it drops come on

[hard axle]

oathplate shards should not jingle

fking troll man

[lament peak]

imo gotr requires too much attention while also being incredibly boring. i can't turn my brain off and watch a show or play another game 🤷‍♀️ i'd much rather do afk zeah after obtaining all the uniques

[hard axle]

[nocturne solstice]

You missed out then, pre-nerf gotr you could definitely afk. You did enough points for contribution then afk'd mining xp at golems.

When the round finished you got that big xp dump and mining xp for your time, super afk

[hasty shard]

mains don't even need the dry protection, if you want the clogs you do the acquisition contracts

[minor whale]

It's all just items dude
This drop is a not high value drop, bad luck
I don't complain that I got a fucking Hydra or Vorkath head instead of a pricey unique

[chrome lantern]

But what if you now need 4 hydra heads to sell your hydra's claw

[minor whale]

Are ingots untradeable?

[chrome lantern]

No but the point is that it's not a just a "worthless drop," it has a lot of value

[hasty shard]

sraxe pieces are
and vestige progress

[chrome lantern]

It just has low ge value

Which was statistically guaranteed to be the outcome with drop mechanics like that

[minor whale]

Yeah it's a component for crafting an item
That component is more common for mains due to the nature of the item and the nature of how mains work
And for irons you'll be expected to have a surplus of ingots after you get all vestiges/axe pieces from the bosses

[chrome lantern]

You're not though

You're expected to have exactly enough on rate, not a surplus

But good thing nobody's ever gone dry before

[hasty shard]

whatever design intention was there doesnt even mean anything when you can just smith them now

[chrome lantern]

Mains can't go dry on ingots

[hasty shard]

they just really made a new item for a rune platebody alch

[chrome lantern]

Simple as that

Other than clog ofc

But for the actual vestige mechanic

It really comes down to that

That's why I call it specifically targeted solely at hurting irons

With no positive benefit

[hasty shard]

my tl;dr is that i'd rather they just not exist than expect them to add more uses to them literally ever
especially when theres not an inherent drop value (as in theres no grind for a reward) as they're now craftable, you just can't really use them for interesting upgrades idk

[minor whale]

Who cares for mains that an item is low value when it clearly was designed to be 😭
Arguing about "irons can go dry on ingots!!" is just worthless
You get anti dry mechanics on the ring by both pieces being identical drop rates for 3 "pieces"
There's a positive benefit in they don't want irons to just make and drop vestiges over with no additional cost, same for Rancour.

[tacit wharf]

its like comparing nox hally (which everyone has to get all pieces) vs vestige (which u can just buy ingots if u dont have them after u get vestige)

[minor whale]

I mean can also compare it to Rancour from the same boss in that irons have to grind out another specific uncommon drop if they want to trade over dupes or they get spooned or something
Mains can just buy torture and craft into rancour

[hasty shard]

again

[minor whale]

I just don't care that irons have to go through an extra hoop or that means get mad they hear a jingle of a unique but the unique isn't money

[hasty shard]

why is it playing this sound if its meant to be a nothing drop

[minor whale]

Oh no I heard a jingle but I'm not rich I'm so sad 😭

[hasty shard]

yes thats the fucking point of sound design!

how is that hard to understand holy fuck

[chrome lantern]

Why are we even having ingots at all if the vestige already has drop rate normalization? It's the opposite of the objective. You don't need three caustic ingots to make a Noxious halberd after getting the pieces, or bludgeon, etc.

Looking at it objectively

The only thing it does is increase the expected kc to complete a ring, specifically for ironmen

That's not skill

That's not added challenge

It's just bad design

Smelting ingots was a bad stopgap

[minor whale]

The unique jingle doesn't mean you're rich
I could probably give you a dozen examples of bosses dropping shit uniques you don't get excited for but the jingle doesn't mean it's somehow a valuable drop

[chrome lantern]

They should've just been deleted

[minor whale]

It's not hard to understand the jingle means unique not money

[hasty shard]

its not even a unique at this point, its craftable

as a tangent, applies to shayzien armour too

kinda weird its on the clog considering that now

[minor whale]

Oathplate is also on the clog, and craftable

[chrome lantern]

Yes, using items from the boss and the boss only

Also crafting it doesn't clog you

[minor whale]

Does crafting ingots clog you?

[hasty shard]

no clue

[chrome lantern]

Shayzien does, not really relevant though

[hasty shard]

why tf do you need 170k to make them what

thats so random

[chrome lantern]

I mentioned it because it's true, I didn't intend to argue anything else about it

Perhaps most worth noting

Even Jagex felt that reliance on Ingot drops was a bad thing

What I disagree with is how they got rid of reliance on ingot drops

[hasty shard]

to trail back anyways i think the examples of bad drops with jingles is just like, wildy bosses (weapon attachments i think?), moxi and titans (amulets)

[chrome lantern]

As in, they shouldn't continue to exist at all

[hasty shard]

wildy bosses are but i wouldnt really want the jingle for the amulets after you get one

weapon attachments are cooler items at least

[oblique mesa]

moxi amulet is

[hasty shard]

😭 wait wildy bosses came out without uniques what

wild

[minor whale]

Vorkath has 3 unique drops that are 95k (1/1000), 42k (1/3000) and 0 gp (1/50)

[chrome lantern]

They had dpick but that was also on chaos ele

And 2h

[hasty shard]

vorkath also doesnt do the jingle
hope this helps

jingles only at bosses post muspah iirc

toa might have it? not sure

[tacit wharf]

i just tested, and it does not

[hasty shard]

thank you for your sacrifice

[tacit wharf]

only 170k

[hasty shard]

610k !!

[tacit wharf]

already 99 smithing and an iron, so only 170k

[hasty shard]

all that rune ore could be in deaths coffer!!1

[tacit wharf]

savin up for them rune cannon balls

[hasty shard]

wait to clarify do you have the ingots clogged at all yet

[tacit wharf]

no

[hasty shard]

kk

[hasty shard]

surely this ingot saves you time

[tacit wharf]

if not, i always mine the rune rocks when i do a clue up by wilderness agility

[minor whale]

35k smithing XP for you

[obsidian venture]

Wasn’t a fan of the dupe protection talks post Moons really

Get to grinding

[tacit rapids]

Have they made a comment about the server updates making it worse for west coast

[plush gull]

why doesnt have anything as good dry protection as moons does 😦

[hard axle]

West coast always get fisted by updates ngl

[fossil epoch]

i hear its the ICE taking down the west coast servers

[indigo tinsel]

[sacred oracle]

They're both junk drops. I thought the comparison was pretty straightforward. Nothing you're describing contradicts it.

You also hear the unique jingle when you get the quartz, and that's an even more worthless drop.

In any case, I just don't have a problem with it. It's a junk drop, and that's fine.

[plain prawn]

ICE is now targeting OSRS players? Ruh roh shaggy time to hide

[hasty shard]

you do get to trade in the quartzes tbf

avg loot 120k across the bosses

4x better than the ingot

[sacred oracle]

wasn't worth effort to me, I just dropped em

[chrome lantern]

Again, two of the quartz also have legitimate, actual usage as well

It’s not just like a piece of trash that drops

[zenith pike]

Bout to snitch for a Wendy’s krabby patty meal

[shy sentinel]

Heard they're making the Moon Helm key pieces easier to get? ....who's trying to take long grinds away from scape

[ember token]

it's a multiple thousand hour grind to go on drop rate

you would need to kill the hueycoatl 75k times to go on rate for just the tooth key halves

[thick beacon]

seems more feasible still then getting all 3a on log

[true talon]

Ya that key or moon chest or whatever is dumb as fuck lol

I got barely any skilling key half’s while mining on leauges with boosted rates

[torn cipher]

Anyone know whether the TOA changes or the Varlamore Final Dawn release is expected first? I know final dawn is slated for 'summer', but was wondering when to plan on doing some more TOA 🙂

[tacit wharf]

would expect val pt 3 in july, with the summer sweep up stuff sprinkled in weekly updates

[hard axle]

Still not on log for some reason

[ember token]

yeah for some unknown reason, whoc ould know why

theres simply no way to know why they didnt put this multi thousand hour item on the collection log

[hard axle]

stares in 3rd age, Blorva, purifying sigil, jad tmog, BH unlocks, etc.

They’re getting increasingly skittish with adding to clog

[shadow wave]

I personally support that theory that the drop rate is a misplaced decimal place error that someone posted on reddit

[solar gale]

7500 times is still a lot

[ember token]

yeah they're so skittish about putting 3rd age on the clog that every single piece of 3rd age is on it

blorva kit and the 5 sigil pieces (not the sigil itself) should be on the clog yes

jad pet transmog isn't even an item so why would it be on the clog lol

BH stuff isn't on the clog because they don't want BH flooded with cloggers boosting to get it done quicker

[hard axle]

I’m saying 3rd age is on clog, so moon helm being thousands of hours is irrelevant to it not being on clog

[hard axle]

You know LMS tmogs are on clog right and they’re not an item either.

This isn’t the only non-item unlock on clog afaik.

the boosting reason ain’t really a reason either

[ember token]

lol

you do know they actually ban for boosting in BH? not in LMS

[hard axle]

yes, and that’s why they should add it on

[ember token]

they should encourage people to break the rules so they can ban them

[hard axle]

If you’re dumb enough to risk a 1000 clog account to boost and take easy way out

You deserve it

It’s like saying the game is too grindy so they’re encouraging you to bot

Same type of rationale

[chrome lantern]

They should’ve kept Jar of darkness and Stale baguette as uber rares too, not like anyone’s finishing 3a so why care about those

[hard axle]

Pre-nerf stale baguette haver

[earnest marsh]

True

[hard axle]

3rd age Druidic clog haver

[earnest marsh]

No clues kc haver!

[hard axle]

Like, there’s very little reason to not include uniques on clog

Only thing I can remotely agree with is limited time uniques like league cosmetics

quest speedrunning in case they remove in future

[chrome lantern]

Quest speedrunning is fun but I’m not going for wr so little if any replayability

I got my platinum cup, probably won’t go for diamond

[earnest marsh]

Quest speed running still played?

Forgot about it haha

[ember token]

got my own platinum trophy recently

[tacit wharf]

i can see why bh uniques werent added, but i also thing that the only items on the lms clog should be the capes or removed entirely

[hard axle]

Any other dumb reason to not include uniques on the list of uniques

[chrome lantern]

The biggest mistake with Quest Speedrun was adding A Kingdom Divided

The quest that has 20% action and 80% cutscene of running to dry dialogue for the rest of the quest

It’s fine lore but man is it an awful user experience and an even worse speedrun experience

[ember token]

i couldnt first try AKD because halfway through I just ended up mixed on on where I had to go/teleport to next lol

[jagged marsh]

they what

[torpid delta]

i loved counting dialogue boxes for ~45 minutes straight, what do you mean

[meager flame]

that was the first osrs quest where i legit think they should've deleted like a shit ton of the dialogue

or put it in like

optional npc interactions or something like

they really thought they were killing them with the novels but i just needed it off of my screen lol im usually down to read some stuff but nah

[true talon]

Dawn was before sweep up on road map, we can prob expect it Early/mid July and then sweep up sprinkled in weekly updates/august

[earnest marsh]

I believe late summer

Even september maybe

As part 3 varlamore is most likely going to be july

Most likely late July or even after that

[ember token]

the sweep-up is gonna be through various updates all during the summer

[quartz anchor]

When they doing the veracs armour change. Didn't they say they were looking into giving it prayer penetration or did I have a fever dream about it

[bronze kernel]

They should go back and add more quests for that . Short and sweet ones TBH

Long ones with a lot of combat are not fun and too RNG

Even worse are ones like Dragon Slayer 1 where you can actually get griefed by another person doing runs at the same time you are

You think Jagex servers would implode if they made the entire world an instance for each player?

[chrome lantern]

I think an ideal world would be letting you use fake “alts” to hold NPCs, set doors, etc. without impacting your speedrun, too - but realistically, the community isn’t really big enough to warrant a lot more Quest Speedrunning. Short quests are definitely the best, and I Diamond trophied like 6 of the first set of quests before realizing I didn’t really find it worth the effort

For a 2 minute quest? Sure. For an hour? Nah.

[dense haven]

hey uhh .. the crafting skill guide is broken

its showing thieving info 😄

[tacit wharf]

yes they said that already on wed

[paper gust]

@brazen crater there is an issue where runelite had to turn off animation smoothing for tumeken, is this an issue you guys are trying to fix? The whole game feels stuttering because of it. And they mentioned that this is an fix that has to be solved from jagex side.

[meager flame]

You're really not supposed to ping random jmods like that but I too would like them to fix whatever they did that disabled animation smoothing on a bunch of random stuff

Its pretty weird and jarring when you do use smoothing but its actually disabled on tons of random stuff suddenly due to some jagex changes

Or more specifically I should say hopefully they fix whatever they broke about animations that forced them to disable animation smoothing on certain ones

It is the weekend though so who knows if they'll see this

[wispy current]

are you sure about that? dont see anything in the rules about not pinging j mods

[paper gust]

yeah srry if its not allowed, but i just hope they fix it soon, and almost no people are talking about it, i just want to make sure they are aware of the issue :/ .

[restive siren]

Yeah its not enforced and more of a common courtesy

If everyone just pings em for whatever question they have its just overload

[wispy current]

they could just turn notifs off if it's an issue

[meager flame]

It just sucks because that stuff has actually been broken for weeks

Lmao I actually thought something was wrong with my pc at first

[paper gust]

yeah i know, same here... ive resetted pc and everything until i figured out..

cba doing raids even atm because it just ruins the whole vibe because of the visual stuttering.... :/

[analog crow]

If you use the in game bug report they will see it

[paper gust]

Good call, on it 😄

[last onyx]

I’m a bit late to the discussion, but I read in the ‘Summer Sweep-Up: Combat & Loot’ post that Duke Sucellus' HP will be increased by 10% to balance out the higher number of kills per hour.

Does this mean his HP goes up only if you’re setting up for multiple kills, or does it increase for **every ** kill?

Also, since there's a GM task requiring you to defeat Duke in under 1 minute and 25 seconds, wouldn’t this change make that task harder?

[velvet token]

I'm guessing some ca will be updated

[nocturne solstice]

It means duke's hp will increase by 10%. This isn't a per kill basis it's his base stats increasing.

Since the GM task also includes prep time and this would remove all prep time for 2 kills, it'll make it much easier.

[plush gull]

this game is cursed

[hasty shard]

[chrome surge]

So about that elemental weakness, i just saw someone hit a 16 with Water strike lvl 38 mage? (Spell = lv 5)

What do you max hit with a dragon scimitar at 80 str?

Typically?

[chrome surge]

No void no ring no defender etc

the mager is in desert robes

and has an air staff

ill check

[plush gull]

what does this emoji mean?

[chrome surge]

So with 70 strength and a dragon scimitar.
you hit As much as a Lv 5 water spell

i cant post pictures but its 16 max hit

That's crazy, who balanced this

[plush gull]

dscim is faster tho

[chrome surge]

Its a level 5 spell

Mind rune

16

combat 35

thats Crazy

[left atlas]

Elemental weakness is a crazy thing. But is helpful because the damage spells do is pretty limited

[plush gull]

well ruby bolts hit 100 at combat level 35

[chrome surge]

Special proc

these waterbolts dont proc a special

its just, the thing itself

[left atlas]

Water strike normally caps at 8 damage without elemental weaknesses

[chrome surge]

Yeah i just saw guzu slap a 16 with it

with weakness

Thats overpowered as fuck

Loo kat guzu

[left atlas]

Not really

[hazy plover]

And I think magic gear isn't nearly as great defensively/accurately as melee gear at dscim levels

[chrome surge]

Yes it is xd in comparison you wouldd hit a 2-3

wit hthe old system

[left atlas]

No, that would be an 8 with the old system

Assuming it was against something with 100% weakness

[chrome surge]

Oh okay Because it clearly reads here

the base max went from 4 > 8

wit htaht update

Thanks

So x4 damage

I find, and that is an opinion i am allowed to share alone if you don't agree

[kind surge]

probably because you wouldn't be using water strike but fire strike

[left atlas]

Mage scales so much worse than melee is the problem, it needed that help for the normal spell book

[chrome surge]

A bit high damage for combat level 30

[chrome surge]

You are supposed to hop to powered staves at some point, true. i dont see the normal spells being valid there But thats another argument

[hasty shard]

still kinda scales poorly, they just giga buffed early game

[kind surge]

it's only 2x because back then you'd only use fire spells

since they maxed the highest between the 4 elements

[hasty shard]

they're really afraid of giving anything more than 50% weakness for some reason

[chrome surge]

Well yeah and then x2 from weakness i guess?

so x4

[hasty shard]

because it means harm might beat shadow at some places (as if thats an issue???)

[chrome surge]

compared to the old 1

[kind surge]

no it's only 2x

because back then you'd just use fire strike

[chrome surge]

Yeah that was 8

but that was at magic 16 or w/e

now t he level 5 spell hits 16 on elemental weakness

[kind surge]

at lvl 16 magic, yes

whatever the level it is to unlock fire strike

and it's not at all broken

[chrome surge]

Idk im just weirded out by it, i dont remember hitting double digits till i had a rune scimitar and 50 str or whatnot

not 5 mage

xd

or 16*

[kind surge]

it's only "broken" on like extremely early questing

[chrome surge]

yeah im watching him take out fire giants at the tempo a lv 75 would

[hazy plover]

I feel like if it's early questing you can just safespot

[kind surge]

it just makes standard magic more viable and in line with other options

[hazy plover]

And it doesn't matter how strong it is

[chrome surge]

If he was in range or melee gear he wouldn't have been ready at all (unless safespot)

in this specific example

[kind surge]

why couldn't you safespot in range

msbi with rune arrows is very competitive

[chrome surge]

That question is a lack from understanding

retry, nobody saidd that

[kind surge]

how wouldn't he be ready with range instead of mage

[chrome surge]

Unless he would safespot it

He can facetank teh firegiant with the 16s hes hitting

have two trout and deal with it

If he does that with t he range

hes hitting 1-3

hes gonna not kill it before his inventory

[kind surge]

that's great

[chrome surge]

That's the example of why it might be a little imbalanced

[kind surge]

don't think it's a problem if we kill fire giants faster

[chrome surge]

Its across the entire game

[kind surge]

it goes up to zulrah so far

[left atlas]

Only elementally weak enemies

[kind surge]

not the entire game

[chrome surge]

If you reach zulrah

You are reaching the boss-phase endgame

etc

[kind surge]

and zulrah had no good options before getting a bowfa or something

[chrome surge]

Yes go hit 60s

[kind surge]

zulrah is not endgame

[chrome surge]

im happy for u

Its still miles and miles away

from combat lv 30

16 mage

hitting 16s

[kind surge]

you're not doing zulrah at lvl 30 combat

[chrome surge]

You werent doing fire giants this fast eitehr

[kind surge]

most people only do fire giants on irons for rune scim

I think it's fine

[chrome surge]

Yeah its a 0 req slayer task

easy boost

if u get it

i believe

Are there weaknesses against the alternative spellbooks? smoke shadow bblood ice?
i actually dont know

Besides sire/leviathan for stuns etc

[left atlas]

Iirc no, but they also have secondary effects and more uses with burst/barrage variants than normal spellbook spells had

[chrome surge]

Yeah they are a member unlock spellbook

they should xd

But you're hitting the same as ice rush

on lv 13 magic or w/e it is

U need 58 to cast ice rush

that doesnt compute for me at all

Also sets you back 488 coins

per cast

[left atlas]

The main problem.lies in basically nobody was using the normal spellbook after a certain point aside from for tele and the non-combat spells because of how useless it was

[chrome surge]

Yeah pretty much only the member only spells were used

on the higher end of the spellbook, besides teles and alchemy's

isn't that by design? to kind of make you reach your f2peak and go member

i still dont opt in to use the standard spellbook at high levels, so across the board it was just to buff the lower level.
Which i'm saying, is a bit overbuffed by the looks of it

Hypothetically equip yourself with a blowpipe with adamant darts and check what hypothetical ranged level you would need to equal its Damage per Second.
You don't have to be 70 range to equip it in this example but.. comeon.

[left atlas]

I find no real issue when you consider the max the Surge spells can get to is 24 damage at 95 before considering elemental weakness

[chrome surge]

Yeah but you're not casting surge

You're casting the level 5 spell withh level 13 magic

Thats your comparison

[left atlas]

Yes, but when you consider that you're only gaining 16 damage but going up 82 levels, that is a problem

[chrome surge]

At that point you have the ability to get anyy other spellbook

and move on

[left atlas]

Yes, but the normal spellbook shouldn't have zero use cases after a certain point

[chrome surge]

Actually no

Hold

[left atlas]

May as well not even have the spells after X level if that's the case

[chrome surge]

remember how i said you can hit 16s with ice burst at 54

Go check for yourself what your elemental weakness hit is at that lv

Its still more useful in that regard, and im guessing by miles

An at a certain treshhold im all for it being that strong

But not a lv 13 mage

that is disproportionate

You hit more than the level you're at

thhats unpresidented

you would have that on hp 1 full dharoks

[chrome lantern]

Spellbook spell damage “scaling” by spell only has been an issue that fundamentally has made it harder and harder to balance magic.

Powered staffs and %magic gear started getting implemented in ways meant to patch up the skill’s deficiencies, but didn’t really make sense with the existing framework that already needed an overhaul

Then they made the disparity even worse with things like the imbued heart and overloads/salts and how they practically only benefit powered staffs

[plush gull]

what if they deleted standard spellbook, moved high alchemy to lunars, and made all powered staves similar to iban blast and void knight mace instead of being ranged weapons that give no magic xp

[bronze kernel]

RIP MTA

[chrome lantern]

That wouldn’t really fix anything because then you just have no viable magic instead of the patchwork of powered staffs

[waxen walrus]

27 with prayer and tome

29/30 with a smoke staff

Still ass tho considering it’s 5t

[thick beacon]

ive brought this up before but id like to see some wands be able to store a firespell or water spell inside it to make it powered staff

trying to play around no thralls/sbs is such a big blow constantly to standard book currently

if they want to make standard good still they could create encounter of multiple ele weaknesses to encourage reg book still

[rare grotto]

its fine if standard is dogshit at the top end

dont need to fix problems that don't exist

[thick beacon]

ig thats true to as well

its been powered staff scape since like 2014 or whatever when they introduced sea trident

[meager flame]

i mean

it would be very easy for jagex to make it bis

like

people can point out whatever design flaws but the truth is jagex at least for standard magic

has already created the lever to make it do whatever dps they want it to do

they can just slap whatever elemental % onto whatever they want

so the only reason it wont be the best or competitive or whatever anywhere

is because they decided it shouldn't be

[tough nacelle]

Magic will always be utility or reskinned range unless we get content that's designed with MAGIC in mind

Ie Ancients, demonbane, veng

Etc

Humidfy

Only other content could be an elemental boss

That changes their resistance midway through the fight

But that's designing content with magic in mind

Or a boss that to dodge you need to tp, and all teleports take you to a specific place

Within the fight instead of an actual tp

And give it elemental weaknesses or tons of small mobs

To make ancients more useful

[jagged marsh]

What if they deleted the first spellbook you get off tutorial island

Yeah

[austere mulch]

Give fire spells a scaling chance to burn and create similar utility type effects that can be applied to all/some of the other elements

Eg. Glancing effect where, while active, target has increased chance to miss over x-number of attacks. Can be implemented where NPCs roll accuracy 3 times. If any of the rolls are below your def roll, npc misses

Can throw that on water (because you slip… lol)

Wham bam, normal book gets utility

[jagged marsh]

Standards has use in early-mid game

Theres no need to make it cracked so ppl use it all the time

[austere mulch]

Part of that use is forced because you have to unlock the other spellbooks

[jagged marsh]

You unlock new stuff and old stuff becomes obsolete, thats how progression works

Keep it simple

[austere mulch]

Of course. And spells continue to be unlocked on all books, making earlier spells obsolete

[jagged marsh]

Standards even sees use later on for its teleport utility. Best for clues, questing, etc

[austere mulch]

People are just asking for the entire book not to be obsolete

Otherwise what is the point of progression within the book once you unlock other books

FWIW normal book should fit as the utility book, as it does currently imo

Generic utility*. Transportation, generating gold, etc

Transportation just unfortunately kind of moot because tabs & poh

[minor whale]

I dunno
It's like saying "get rid of all prayers below piety/rigour/augury because they're useless once you get those"
Things can be good early and bad later and I think that's ok

[austere mulch]

Not rly no, bc it’s not the lower level spells thats the issue

It’s more like saying once you get access to slash weapons, all other melee weapons are useless (ironic this is kinda the case lol)

Even though slash weapons continue to get higher level unlocks

The normal spellbook continues to progress and unlock higher level spells as you get a higher magic level, but the book itself including those higher level spells, is more or less useless when you get access to the other books

[tacit wharf]

its another facet of weakness for magic, except thralls are such a problem that jagex refuses to fix (and honestly a big weak spot for the rest of weakness as well)

[solar gale]

0.6 dps is a lot but other spellbooks just don't have enough general utility to them

imagine if the normal spellbook had an "elemental bane" spell where you get 10% damage and accuracy against an enemy with an elemental weakness

or lunars had ways to smuggle more runes with less slots

thralls are just ahead of their time

[tacit wharf]

i mean it doesnt help that jagex rides powered staves so hard they're giving it a friction burn

[solar gale]

powered staves are cool

since in theory you then have freedom to choose your spellbook

if other spellbooks had more utility to them then it would be valid choices

[true talon]

Obvious fix is to have the normal spell book spells cast when off the normal spell book and have the elemental staff casts be baked into the weps themself

[hard axle]

Nah, the fix is to periodically make elemental weakness BIS, 2nd BIS, etc.

[tacit wharf]

id rather have them look at staves themselves

[hard axle]

Even before elemental weakness was a thing, harm vs shadow at pnm was hotly debated

even right now, it’s dead even

[tacit wharf]

which is dumb as hell

[hard axle]

Harm is 6s worse on average than shadow

with double dc

But infinitely more chill

[tacit wharf]

how does something that has a weakness lose to a powered stave

[hard axle]

That’s my point

It should’ve been 80-100% Fire weakness

Not 70%

[tacit wharf]

if they want powered staves to be bis there, its simple, no weakness

[hard axle]

I think it’s fine to make it 2nd bis as well, which weakness is required

[tacit wharf]

ya close is fine

[hard axle]

my lazy ass can’t handle 9 way shadow + dc

• thralls

For more than an hour

But I can do 4 way harm for 10% less damage for hours

Harm, occult, torm, tome so you can also 1 way maul to kill parasite btw

Very good lazy tech

[solar gale]

nah don't have options, if it has a weakness only use the one thing

the real creativity of elemental weaknesses isn't more options, its more polarizing options

[rain fulcrum]

Cause weaknesses r for early game spellbook

[rain fulcrum]

Ok but what about sbs harm?

[hard axle]

[tacit wharf]

pretty weak take considering its suppose to be promoting diversity for mage, the same as stab/slash/crush, light/standard/heavy, rat/dragon/demonbanes, so magic can have elemental/ancient/powered

[rain fulcrum]

Not gonna happen powered staves are here to stay

Also the various weaknesses are just flavor mostly

Seeing as it only changes what tome you need to use

[ember token]

elemental spells are never going to be used for much more than just the early/mid game and that’s fine

[rain fulcrum]

Elemental spells aren't like stab/crush/def because every staff can do all 4

It's like if every melee wep could do all 3 styles

[ember token]

powered staves allow spellbook diversity, its just that the ancient and lunar spellbooks (moreso the lunar spellbook) needs to compete better with thralls and death charge on the arceuus

[rain fulcrum]

I wish veng was superior DPS compared to thralls

[tacit wharf]

element is the style my guy, not each individual element

[earnest marsh]

We should had gotten vegence upgrade in pvm

Supiror vegance

So fun and interesting to use

[solar gale]

oops all immune to recoil and punished for trying to use veng by "failing" perfect kills

[hard axle]

group venge when

[austere mulch]

Group veng would go crazy

Let energy transfer work with less than 100% energy, eg. If I have 20% spec and my duo partner has 30% spec, I can transfer him and he can claw or maul

Remove the movement canceling when casting npc contact

Let Soulflame horn work with dragon claws

Utopia

[hasty shard]

they're genuinely so allergic to usurping shadow as a bis anywhere

[hasty shard]

the only real differences are like, sunfire runes and that curses count as water spells i guess

because people use vuln in 2025

[jagged marsh]

what the rs3??

[jagged marsh]

It does, just for two hitsplats

[solar gale]

it makes the 2nd of the 3 / 4 accuracy rolls land, the 1st rolls normal accuracy

[jagged marsh]

thats funky

[austere mulch]

That’s not how claws work

Each hit doesn’t have an individual accuracy check

You get up to four chances at accuracy. Once you pass, you stop rolling for accuracy and roll for damage where the range varies by which attempt passed, the earlier the more net damage

The damage is static based on the initial damage roll. Subsequent hitsplats are based on the initial damage

Soulflame horn only buffs the second attempt at accuracy, not the first.

Meaning, for it to be a benefit at all you need to

1. Fail the first attempt
2. Also would’ve otherwise failed the second attempt

For context: if you have a base of 55% accuracy, you have an 80% chance to pass either of the first two accuracy attempts. Meaning 80% horn was zero benefit. Also the dmg range from 3rd attempt compared to 2nd attempt is so small, that it (in pair with the net accuracy) makes it never worth using horn with claws. Where if it worked on the first attempt, as it was polled and communicated up until release date, it’d be just barely worth using at 2-3 pieces of content

[hard axle]

its annoying because they are not allergic to making scythe worse

we know who jage'x favor mega rare is

[solar gale]

However dont forget the dooter also gets the buff. They can do a half hearted buff to a guy throwing out a claw spec to do their own meaningful spec

[rain fulcrum]

Claws are the main thing that would be worth using the horn on

[austere mulch]

Doesn’t change that it’s just objectively not worth using horn with claws at all

You get less of a boost than you do using horn with scythe, both in expected raw damage increase and relative increase. And that’s with it only buffing the big hitsplat of scythe

If it worked with first accuracy attempt as polled, it’d still be a worse relative increase than scythe but the raw dmg increase would be slightly more than the raw of scythe

And it’s legit that tiny little bit that makes it worth using or not

[primal terrace]

Where’s the excel sheet for the upcoming elemental weaknesses?

[chrome lantern]

#game-news message
Linked in this post

Er this one actually

#game-news message

The first link there is the follow-up but it links to the first

[solar gale]

Unless you use it to claw something you normally wouldnt, like nex

[austere mulch]

Not worth using at nex

Worse than just using 3 burning claws, or using horn with SRA which is meme-y, so nobody really going to do it. Worse spec usage than vw or zcb

Horn + claw (75%)
Claw, boosted by horn (50%)

Vs

Zcb (75%)
Vw (50%)

Pretty clear choice there

[icy relic]

VW also useful for last phase

Too much memery to do less than VW

[final frigate]

tick perfect for x2 dmg

[solar gale]

not worth using doesn't mean shouldn't, the budget price of 2 burning claws + 1 horn vs 1 zcb + vw gives a clear niche gap for lower gear levels

[true talon]

Splinters being 270gp, i think its time for jagex to remove them off wave 1

[hasty shard]

literally why did they do that

[hard axle]

aCcEsSiBiLiTy

[fair comet]

That doesn’t make sense for why they crashed so much though. There’s more to it than that.

imo

[thick beacon]

was bound to happen imo only sink for them is corrupting quiver

[fair comet]

The opposite of corruption, cleansing the quiver!

or blessing, whatever :p

[thick beacon]

ye lol u know what i mean though

[plush gull]

there have been dchain sara sword bots running rampant on every world for over a month without getting banned tho

ive reported like tens of them and then i still see them a week later

even tho some were banned months ago when the player report feedback system was first added

seems like they just stopped being banned around yama release... sunfire splinters are all the way down to 238 now. still in freefall

[slender vapor]

Must be between "ban waves"

[hard axle]

It was bound to happen. Major sink was perma charging it and we hit the critical point where everyone who has a quiver charged it.

Ralos and quiver don’t consume 1 splinter per attack, so even if you don’t perma charge quiver, the use case is tiny as fuck

They fucked up the balance in trying to make it accessible

[plush gull]

i havent charged my quiver, it doesnt use charges with weapons that have charges (blowpipe, venator, bofa) so theres no reason to. i toss in 666 charges and they last like 6 months with sporadic crossbow use

[hasty shard]

^

its just kinda hard to go through charges lol

tbow and zcb arent particularly relevant until you well, get them so there's not much to chew through charges

intentionally not mentioning venator

[tiny epoch]

with the corruption over time change theres no reason to insta corrupt

only if u want the maxcape cosmetic

that drops demand a lot

[plush gull]

venator doesnt use quiver charges cuz weapons that have charges dont use it. even if they use ammo

[hasty shard]

wait what

[plush gull]

its been like that since release. venator is a charged item with ancient essence, and it never drains quiver charges, same as blowpipe

[hasty shard]

hm
it still gets the bonus riight?

[plush gull]

yeah

[hasty shard]

if so yeah what the fuck would even consume charges currently lmao

i kinda feel like someone with a quiver doesn't have a massive use case for dcb vs bp

at least i dont

[plush gull]

just tbow mostly, i dont think anyone is using a scobow on anything for hundreds of hours

and yeah idk anything that dcb beats quiver+masori blowpipe on other than zuk. blowpipe is really good with its full max. ddarts too expensive tho

last place i used a dcb on was vespula

[chrome surge]

Is anyone else experiencing their Launcher not showing how much membership is actually left?

My launcher says No membership, but i have 8 days left.

Tiny panic because i thought i got compromised like back in the days

[reef shale]

Anyone else notice the metric truck load of bots at shamans lately? Been reporting them daily but they keep showing up 🤣

[restive siren]

Bans are usually in waves and the last one was quite a while ago

So yeah a lot of bots running around rn

[reef shale]

Got like 140 of them reported but had to take a break from hopping 🤣

[austere mulch]

No, it absolutely does mean you shouldn’t. There isn’t a scenario where you’re not trolling by using horn with claws. Especially at Nex

[austere mulch]

Voidwaker is cheaper than claws, so yeah you’re trolling

Fang or extra burning claw specs are better than horn burning claws, so yeah you’re trolling there too

That’s not budget, that’s just low iq decision

[meager flame]

tbh its actually completely insane how good vw is in general as just like a generic item to use

[true talon]

@plush gull you want to leech to 100 kc to get your death charge 🙂

[meager flame]

it might not be the best but unless whatever you're hitting is immune to the damage it does

its probably top 3

[plush gull]

when asian servers? the problem with faraway servers is that if u get any packet loss, its ping*2 to recover

so close people dont even notice minor packet loss but if ur 200 ping it demolishes entire ticks

im so tired of learning to cope with sequences of 1000ms and 200ms long ticks

[meager flame]

i mean

i have to imagine those servers would exist if jagex thought there were enough people to justify it

[plush gull]

they announced servers when project zanaris shut down

im asking when they are

😠

also i learned something about packet loss recently when i was trying to mess with network settings so i wanted to show off

ur welcome

[meager flame]

ahh i see what you're talking about

hopefully they actually do it

they just said they're exploring the option and it might not even be for asia

like i have to imagine south america is something they're looking at lol

[plush gull]

also would this game being udp do anything

i dont think it would

[thick beacon]

i dont think ur wrong botting prob plays a role into everything tbh

i think another big thing was when they made quiver progressively work towards corruption

theres much less of a need/want to buy a giga 150k bulk fast these days

but i think actually needing charges is biggest problem overal

[reef shard]

One of the ice troll runts on the small island directly north of jatizso (close to the western bridge here) does not have elemental weakness.

[true talon]

Last drop was 1029....... ive been doing solos with mix of some duo's since.

[thick beacon]

wait u should be done

if u broke down ur hellms

[true talon]

nah i dont support that system

[thick beacon]

i like it cuz how free it makes things from iron perspective

[true talon]

ill take the shard BLP but not the break down helm into 1/10th its value lol

[thick beacon]

fact u can even use dupes to progress iron is kinda unheard of ontop of that extra shard system

[true talon]

Im NGL i didnt even think id be at 1600 without getting another unique roll chance lol

[thick beacon]

ye thats fair

[true talon]

571 is 5x rate

for a unique roll chance

[thick beacon]

but like technically u are done

[true talon]

yea technically

[thick beacon]

if u want to be

[true talon]

I am done another way if i want too lol

i have 2 shard ac contracts

but doing that solo is kinda ass and i need to practice it

Currently if you get jellies in solo first spawn you basically die, because there is 4 of them on full hp you gotta take down in 10 seconds

[solar gale]

I said burning claws

[austere mulch]

Read the part of that comment you responded to that starts with Fang and ends with too

[hard axle]

we told him this a long time ago, but he wants his cake and eat it too.

oathplate has 3 ways of getting the damn thing and im surprised black demons don't have a 1/1m chance of dropping it

[hard axle]

barely anything which is why the average joe barely goes through 10k sunfire splinters in their lifetime, let alone 150k

I don't think ralos specs drain it 1:1 either, so tob runners ain't consuming it a lot either

it's becoming a worse version of the ancient essence from muspah

[true talon]

Maybe part 3 will bring a use, but yea sunfire splinters should have been utilized better.

Doesnt help the wave 1 splinters and bots have destoried their value

[hard axle]

I think it’s more about security and existing infrastructure than anything else. To my knowledge, it’s why a lot of companies don’t set up servers in China for that reason (you’d have CN knockoffs cloned in days).

And if it costs more than Asia players exist, not worth pursuing.

[hard axle]

It doesn’t. Wave 1 should’ve been 10 splinters, Wave 11-12 should’ve been the most.

The fact that resetting wave 1 was meta by any means is an atrocity.

[true talon]

Yea i would have prefered if most splinters came from quiver itself or the later waves.

I think certain systems are developed with a goal in mind, but then they backtrack on it due to player feedback.
Had a corruptable version of the quiver not existed. then splinters would have had a ton more use and its obvious they wanted echo boots/glaive use them.

[austere mulch]

Not too late for them to adjust splinter distribution so that the vast majority you get from waves 7-12 and really limit what you get 1-6

[true talon]

besides wave 1 you dont get a ton

[hard axle]

There’s no reason why quiver shouldn’t have been more other than they wanted to give non-quiver havers a small piece of the pie

I’d rather they make it so you don’t lose loot if you die, but put more at higher waves so you lose nothing by trying

[hard axle]

Never too late, but will they do it is the question

[inner pike]

crafting skill still showing thieving progression for anyone else?

[small anvil]

Yes, it is a known bug will be fixed later

[austere mulch]

Has to be cold fixed, so it’ll be this week’s update

[meager flame]

thats why you dont put your asia servers in china

not why you dont have asian servers

if i were taking a wild guess i would probably say that the lack of a south american server is by far the biggest instance of jagex not servicing players that they actually have