game-update

[rare grotto]

yes hence u should choose your audience and stick to it

can't please everyone

[thick beacon]

im not even saying not to nerf high raid lvl toa rates just nerf lower level as well

[rare grotto]

if u wanna make something easy and fun, go for it. If u want it to be endgame, go for it

but don't try to do both

[thick beacon]

because saying low lvl toa has little impact is copium imo

[minor whale]

Sub-150 ToA has effectively 0 impact

[nocturne solstice]

Why? Lower rates weren't the problem. If you look at ONLY the purple % and completely ignore the completion % I can see why you'd reach that conclusion.

[rare grotto]

ppl are looking at hm purps are coming out of it

[thick beacon]

there is still a chance though and it creates a large chunk of purples still

[rare grotto]

that quarter slice is going to be unchanged post changes

while the others are decreasing

[nocturne solstice]

The only chance it would have is more fangs/lb/wards since people are running more lower invo instead of 300+

[rare grotto]

assuming ppl stick to their invos, it just means 150-300 will have even higher % of purps coming out

[nocturne solstice]

Which they shouldnt since they'll want the shadow so they should run 300+

[rare grotto]

so now u have one bracket that's going up to 30% or even 35% of purps

[minor whale]

If 5% of people generating 1% of purples is a large chunk than the 3% generating 7% of purples is MASSIVE then

[vivid ruin]

This is why i said 150 - 250 should effectively be same rate, while 255+ should get the higher rates. But im just an elitist i guess

[nocturne solstice]

wasnt it like, a 50% purple drop rate for 8 man 500+ toa?

[minor whale]

410s cap at 55% I think

[rare grotto]

it caps out yes

[nocturne solstice]

even reaching 55% is absolutely nuts I dont know how you dont see that as a problem

[rare grotto]

where was that even said

[nocturne solstice]

It isnt being said, thats the problem. They're blaming "low invos" (<300) for the large amount of purples in game.

[rare grotto]

p sure everyone is on the same page that 400+ needs nerfs (and they're getting them)

but lower invos need them as well

[thick beacon]

i also think being rewarded shadow/fangs for 150 is pretty insane

its crazy they even offer it in entry

[rare grotto]

imagine scy coming out of story mode tob

or any purp for that matter

[nocturne solstice]

How would you split the rewards by invo?

[minor whale]

But isn't "amount of purples" the issue as was said before?
The quarter slice not getting nerfed but the 3/4 slice getting nerfed seems reasonable

[thick beacon]

they added a system but they never used it

[nocturne solstice]

I do agree though... the lower invos really should lock out some drops instead of just reduce drop chance.

[rare grotto]

why would you only address the 3/4 and not the whole pie

this doesn't make any sense

[thick beacon]

at 150 u unlock everything

[nocturne solstice]

iirc it was like, a 1/50 roll or something? for the "chance" of rolling for stuff that wasnt' supposed to be unlocked.

[minor whale]

Sub 150 shadows are basically just lottery drops

Not really relevant to discussion

[rare grotto]

it's weird to be selective and only nerf certain brackets instead of all brackets.

[nocturne solstice]

yeah

[thick beacon]

the fact that it even exists is crazy though

[nocturne solstice]

its not

Its just... expected drop rate

[minor whale]

I don't think it's crazy, any more than a 10 point cox kc can get you a twisted bow

[thick beacon]

150s are like if u had slayer boss drop mrares

[rare grotto]

yes calculate the odds on 10 point tbow

and compare with toa

not even close in order of magnitude

[vivid ruin]

💯

[narrow folio]

The rate is still terrible so I don't think it's a problem

[rare grotto]

it's 22%

[nocturne solstice]

I'm really not concerned about the mid gamer getting a purple at 1/50 when the 410 gamers are getting 1/2

[thick beacon]

ye i disagree with this existing to but like with cox its much harder to fix

[nocturne solstice]

I reaaaallly dont see why you want to nerf the lower invos

[rare grotto]

yes but for every 410 gamer there's 10 "mid" gamers

[nocturne solstice]

And thats fine

[thick beacon]

if everyone can farm something at a reasonable rate its not gona be as rare as u think logically im saying

[nocturne solstice]

Whats the problem with there being more mid gamers? thats just the bell curve of players

[rare grotto]

same reason high invos should get nerfed

[thick beacon]

rates arent that high but everyone on this disc can go do a 150

[vivid ruin]

I can do 3 150s an hr vs 1 400 an hr

[rare grotto]

don't really see why certain brackets should be untouched instead of blanket nerf

makes it fair for everyone

[nocturne solstice]

So its a problem because it takes 10 times as many players at a lower invo to get the same amount of purples coming in at a higher invo? But lower invos are the problem?

[vivid ruin]

Can we go green line, and everything 150-250 flat line @ 2%

[rare grotto]

both are an issue, since they generate about an equal amount of purples

[thick beacon]

jagex present some evidence to show low lvl raids are a problem i think ignoring it is disingenious

[nocturne solstice]

If you look at the graph Praise the Sun just posted. Thats why it wasnt a blanket nerf.

You can see the significant jump starting at 300s

[thick beacon]

u cant say high lvl raids bring into many items then change the arguement to well we have worse rates

[nocturne solstice]

You're intentionally avoiding half the information to make your point.

[rare grotto]

well the jump can be explained by aggressive scaling, people 3downing, people adding path invos, skull skipping

which don't happen at 150-300 invos

[minor whale]

You can absolutely compare hours across all accounts to purple rate across difficulties

[nocturne solstice]

You're absolutely right, hence why it was nerfed at higher invos.

[rare grotto]

well no

[minor whale]

If 1000 people bring in 10 purples in the same time as 100 people bring in 10 purples one of those is "worse" for the time invested bringing in way too many

[nocturne solstice]

You're wrong?

[rare grotto]

people just don't do them at lower invo, but u'd see a similar jump in purp chance if they did

[thick beacon]

maybe im based but i think all of it is dependent on hm purples enter the game

[nocturne solstice]

I dont think people at lower invos are 2 downing though 🤔

[nocturne solstice]

Not based, Biased

[rare grotto]

deffo not using path invos/skull skipping

[nocturne solstice]

Oh absolutely

I doubt many in lower invo even know skull skipping is a thing

[thick beacon]

i feel we going in circles can agree to disagree

[restive siren]

Two things can be true at the same time, there are too many purples coming in and high invo are disproportionally too rewarding. High invos will still be the best gp/hr, i dont know why high invo runners are so mad about it. Nerfing low invos makes no sense, they are already basically not worth doing for gp and have terrible rates for IM, people do them for fun or because they hope for the big ticket item. On average your time should be spent at like 20 other bosses for gp if you are a main

[nocturne solstice]

[thick beacon]

well i think part of problem is ppl are feeling like dropping their raid lvl is whats gona be more efficent now

[restive siren]

If the nerf to high invo in addition to the changed scaling on drops and the item sink brings lightbearer and fang to a reasonable value again, why do people want to kill of the low invo casual crowd who already have dogshit rates

[nocturne solstice]

They would be wrong

[minor whale]

Yeah I'd love to see someone calcing the expected gp/hr after the quality of purples is changed to reward high invos more

[thick beacon]

or atleast extremely rewarding compared to the effort required

[vivid ruin]

Then again, they are nerfing the bosses a bit making higher invos easier. No?

[humble river]

wait so what are the new rates for purples in toa now

[rare grotto]

because they make up for a quarter of the purples coming into the game hence have an effect on their price?

[restive siren]

people thinking low invos are now the play are just wrong and didnt do the math. which is to be fair to a degree on jagex because the numbers are not very clear in the post

[rare grotto]

why do ppl keep glossing over the 22%

[nocturne solstice]

The darker purple is the new ones

[minor whale]

If you drop raid level you drop quality and rate
Unless it's a drastic speed increase I don't think it's gonna be more profitable to do lower invos

[restive siren]

its absolutely not

[thick beacon]

lot of ppl focus on rates to get this over the concept of it generating purples

[vivid ruin]

The graph ^

[restive siren]

the shadow rate goes up by a lot

[nocturne solstice]

I wanna know why people keep glossing over the 42%

[thick beacon]

22% is piety thats still pretty big no matter how u wana spin it

[vivid ruin]

Theyre also proposing possible nerfs to toa bosses so im not sure if a lot of these arguments would hold after those are in place

[rare grotto]

yeah but rates don't mean anything, its rates + hm ppl are doing it

[winged mantle]

The rates at lower invo were fine. Sadly the rates 400+ were too generous

[restive siren]

no i dont, i just dont see it as a problem because thats an insane amount of people and time spent to get to that number. rates matter, total amount is not the only relevant thing

[rare grotto]

which 42%

[nocturne solstice]

Glossing confirmed

[minor whale]

The 19% of raids bringing in 42% of the purples isn't the problem it's the 47% of people bringing in 22% of purples!
Yeah I disagree, I just don't think low invos are nearly as harmful due to the man hours put in per purple

[rare grotto]

what do you mean you don't

[vivid ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/glitter-lip-gloss-glittery-sparkling-gif-15650126

[restive siren]

wanted to reply to that

[thick beacon]

why is it only 19% of ppl are able to do that though? i think its because its harder and they are being rewarded for it

[nocturne solstice]

Since its percentages we really can use flat numbers.
You're upset that 42 guys are bringing in 22 purples meanwhile 12 guys are bringing in 25 purples and you think the 42 guys are the problem and causing the excessive amount of purples in the economy.

[minor whale]

And at new rates they're still being rewarded for it by getting better quality purples and still higher chances of purple

[rare grotto]

i'm saying both are a problem

[restive siren]

its like saying we should reduce minimum wage because if we add it all together they make billions and billions and thats not fair

[nocturne solstice]

Im saying they arent, we havent even seen the numbers for hours spent.

[restive siren]

like no, they put in absurd hours for dogshit reward

[thick beacon]

they do it simply because they dont want to improve and its hard

its osrs not irl anyone can try

[nocturne solstice]

Maybe this assumption is too much but I assume the reason they do sub 300s now is because they're not comfortable and find the 300+ too hard. That means they take longer, less invos, bad gear, take longer.

[winged mantle]

Some irons can't spend 50 mins no fang to do 300's

[rare grotto]

but it doesn't matter if it's not efficient to do. At the end of the day that 22% has a huge effect on the price which is what they're ultimately wanting to control

[vivid ruin]

Ive spent probably 2 hours on a mass world.. and can confirm people die a lot on 150s 😭

[minor whale]

What % do you think would be fair for that 22% to be then

[nocturne solstice]

300+ make up 78% of purples

[winged mantle]

8 man 150's

[rare grotto]

and nerfing a 7% of the slice will have a smaller effect on price than nerfing 22% of the slice, unless someone here disagrees

[restive siren]

and they control the price by other means which solves the problem without hitting the already down bad raiders

[nocturne solstice]

Why are we focused on the 22%

[rare grotto]

because 22% is untouched, and the others are

[nocturne solstice]

Yes because they make up 78%

[rare grotto]

that doesn't make any sense

address the whole pie 👍

[minor whale]

How doesn't it make sense

[nocturne solstice]

78% means thats where the purples are coming from

[winged mantle]

It doesn't need to br touched does it? Someone doing a 150 toa gets a 1/50 rate

[nocturne solstice]

Thats where the excess is

[minor whale]

They're already a much smaller portion of the pie and a much larger portion of the players doing the content

[rare grotto]

by that argument u should address everything but 500+ because thats 93% of purps

[restive siren]

i just dont understand what exactly is your problem with low invos, it doesnt affect you at all, higher invos will still be the best moneymakers

[nocturne solstice]

53% of completions is 300+ and they make up 78% of purples.

[restive siren]

its like saying they should nerf mole because some people are making 1m/hr

[minor whale]

Isn't that the opposite of our point
We're looking at both % together while you're focusing on just the purple %

[thick beacon]

well if u nerf both sides u incentivise ppl to get better and reduce purples

[nocturne solstice]

Do you think it's bad because it's unfair? Because the rates were skewed and way too good for 300+ that's why 300+ are getting the nerfs. This change makes it more fair.

[minor whale]

You already do incentivize people to do better
Did literally anyone read the "purples get better as you do harder raids"

[nocturne solstice]

And even then 300+ get the buff of increased shadow drop rate.

[winged mantle]

I think the rates they proposed are fair because of how generous it was at the higher end at the first place. 1/17 for a personal purple from 400's is still insane compared to cox or tob

[nocturne solstice]

Lotta people glossing over that too

[rare grotto]

idk how else to put it, if story mode tob dropped scy at 1/5k it would still be ridiculous because enough ppl would do story mode to the point it affected the prices

[thick beacon]

they are nerfing reward for higher raid lvls without touching lower invos

[rare grotto]

which is unfair because your doing the raid at not even 1/10 of its peak difficulty

same applies to toa

[restive siren]

gatekeeping the casual crowd out of raids is not a healthy way to design the game

[rare grotto]

150-300 is barely a raid, infinite attempts and u get a decent shot at a purple still

[nocturne solstice]

Thats just elitism

[restive siren]

people need to have interactions outside of their bubble

[thick beacon]

its not gatekeeping u can learn how to get to that point in a week-2max

[winged mantle]

Toa was made as an accessible entry into raiding. Why punish those just getting into raids

[restive siren]

i dont think you have interacted with casual players a lot if you think that anyone can do 400-500 toas

[rare grotto]

i believe if u put the effort in it, u can do it. But that's a different discussion altogether

[nocturne solstice]

This is just the classic "everyone below me is noob, everyone above me is nolife". Not everyone is you.

[thick beacon]

people dont even try

[restive siren]

those are very much the type of content not anyone can and will do

[rare grotto]

happy to help anyone here if they feel they'veh it a toa brick wall

[nocturne solstice]

The average raider IS doing 150-299s

thats why it has so many completions

[restive siren]

and lets keep in mind that even the average raider is quite above the average player in general

[nocturne solstice]

Actually its interesting that you can find out what tier you're at based on your average invo rate 🤔

[small anvil]

Didn't someone just say 300+ was 53%

[restive siren]

high invo raiders are such an insane minority of the playerbase

[thick beacon]

avrage toaer will not even try to learn insanity etc they will play around it

[small anvil]

That was you

Lol

The majority of people do 300+

[nocturne solstice]

Correct, but also you know that includes like 5 of the 7 brackets right?

[small anvil]

That contradicts this statement

[thick beacon]

like if u feel gatekept thats on you i think

[rare grotto]

been like that since the dawn of time

[nocturne solstice]

Not if you read the data

[thick beacon]

its a mental block

[rare grotto]

ppl gatekeeping themselves more than anything

[small anvil]

53% of completions are above that level

[nocturne solstice]

The largest bracket population is the average. So whats the largest bracket?

[rare grotto]

so many discs out there with information/teamforming it's rly hard to call ppl gatekeepers or w/e

[small anvil]

The brackets are subdivided more

[restive siren]

higher end players cannot fathom how bad the average gamer is

its the same discussion in every game

[nocturne solstice]

Yes those are the standard deviations

[thick beacon]

i feel like rs though is craziest

[rare grotto]

why do u think higher end players don't know how bad ppl are

[small anvil]

The average raider is somewhere above 300

[thick beacon]

ppl will flame u for trying in this game

its like a culture to not want game to get to hard etc its not osrs or watever

[rare grotto]

yes i'm a dad with 7 kids and 10 minutes of playtime a week, this is my personality now i'm a casualer 😎

[nocturne solstice]

Incorrect you're not using the standard deviation so your conclusion isnt right

[small anvil]

It's broken down into buckets

[winged mantle]

People at the high end don't send with people at the lower end. It's not efficient

[small anvil]

Over half is over 300

[restive siren]

because of comments like anyone can do high invos if they just tried for a bit. or saying 150-300s is barely a raid. that is high end bubble speak

[thick beacon]

only 7kids ?

[small anvil]

It's literally right there lol

You can't see those numbers and say the average raider is in the bucket below it

[nocturne solstice]

Let me use your same logic and show you why it makes no sense. The average raider does sub 450s because thats 87% of the completions

Therefore on average people do 450s

[small anvil]

Median, mean whatever you use

[rare grotto]

this is just ad hominem isn't it? 150-300 is barely a raid because u can turn off the majority of invos

[thick beacon]

they arent bad they just dont want to improve at all they dont try

[rare grotto]

not rly high end bubble speak, just numbers

[small anvil]

You claimed the average is 150-299, that's literally not possible

[thick beacon]

like its hard for me to respect that mindset but i feel alot of casual players have that mindset

[nocturne solstice]

Have you seen the data?

[rare grotto]

i mean we've friends who aren't eff at all, we do learner sesh, we see turbo casuals play etc

[small anvil]

47% below 300, 53 above

[rare grotto]

@obsidian venture has more exp than I do on that front though

[restive siren]

idk what about that you think was insulting, its just the reality. i was part of those communities in many games too, they are very real and you have no idea you are in them until you actually interact with normal players

[nocturne solstice]

Do you know what a standard deviation is? And how averages are interpreted? Because the higher completion % would put the average at 150-299

[restive siren]

i had very similar opinions about the games i played at the time

[winged mantle]

That's intentional though. For when they want to send lots of raids will they let learners tag along or go with their speedy gamer bros

[rare grotto]

i'm not saying it's insulting, i'm just saying you never addressed the point I made. U just brush it off an argument as "high end elitist speak" and call it a day

[small anvil]

Yes I know what a standard deviation is, it's really not relevant when things are in buckets lol

The median is above 300

That is self evident

[nocturne solstice]

You're thowing the buckets into a pool and misinterpreting the information

[winged mantle]

I've taught lots of toa and people that were sending 150 can now do 400s

[small anvil]

Over half of the population is doing over 300

[rare grotto]

it really depends, if you're fun to hang out with ppl will let u in their fast raids (u'll get carried if u don't mind)

[small anvil]

300+ excuse me

[rare grotto]

yeah thts what i'm saying

400s are very doable.

[small anvil]

Wouldn't be surprised if >6% is right at 300 lol

Like what the heck does standard deviation have to do with anything, we have population level data, they told us a comprehensive stat

[nocturne solstice]

Here I made you a nice chart so you can see where the average is

[small anvil]

Standard deviations are when there's uncertainty in the data

Like are you just using words you've heard applied to statistics before?

[nocturne solstice]

Yes I've had to use SPSS for several years

[winged mantle]

It takes a lot of effort to pass on experience. Sadly a lot of people that do 150's-300's aren't ready for the higher invo. That plus the deaths tank purple chance

[rare grotto]

i think if they are ready to learn and don't mind the deaths//learning process they can get there reasonably

it's not like u have to be perfect when ur running 400s

still room for mistakes

[small anvil]

Ok you use a software to look at statistics. Do you understand what you're doing with stats or just go through the motions lol. There's no standard deviation, this isn't a representative sample data

This is a comprehensive count

There's no standard deviation

[winged mantle]

Alot get pretty discouraged when they die alot/ feel like they are letting people down

They want comfy raids so go back lower

[small anvil]

You don't say most people live in California because they have the largest population

[restive siren]

im not brushing it off, i am comparing it with years of experience of being in these bubbles myself. and its backed up with data too fwiw, you can see on the wiki that only 20% of players ever did a 300 toa and only 11% did 25 or more. 500 without deaths is 4.7%. High invo runners are a small subset and not representative of the average playerbase. So when people who do the hardest content in the game say things like "they could if they just tried" or "xyz content isnt even content its so easy" they are speaking from their own experience and that of their bubble. I am not attacking you here, it is the most normal thing for people that are very good at anything to be completely unable to put themselves of the shoes of people that are not

[nocturne solstice]

You dont know what SPSS is used for do you? That's fine but there's no reason to make comments about something you don't have experience in.

You're just using random words to obfuscate things now. This isn't representative sample data? It's official data of all completions from Jagex, what do you mean?

The data could not possibly be more accurate

[small anvil]

What standard deviation are you referring to

You're the one claiming I'm not accounting for it

[nocturne solstice]

We're using the toa invo brackets as pseudo-standard deviations

[small anvil]

There's no standard deviation here

[restive siren]

I learnt that only after years of doing it myself too, after starting to raid with a average dad gamer guild in wow. i had no idea that people literally cannot do things even if they try hard and you spend hours teaching them

and these people were still above average fwiw

[small anvil]

No? How is a bucket a standard deviation

That makes no sense lol

[nocturne solstice]

Again, do you know what a standard deviation is?

[small anvil]

Yes I do

[nocturne solstice]

Then why dont you understand?

[small anvil]

This is like looking at state populations, seeing California is the biggest one, and saying most Americans live in Cali

When I say, no most live East Coast

So what if the mode is in a specific bucket

[rare grotto]

"High invo runners are a small subset and not representative of the average playerbase"
this i agree with.

"So when people who do the hardest content in the game say things like "they could if they just tried" or "xyz content isnt even content its so easy" they are speaking from their own experience and that of their bubble"
You're implying the first half of the sentence isn't true but it is. You can reasonably do 400s or w/e if u just put in some effort

ppl get discouraged but it's not like they're physically incapable

case in point a paraplegic doing awakened bosses

[small anvil]

Subdividing something more just so one bunch of buckets has a larger number doesn't make where the average is

[winged mantle]

I would say most can't without a shadow tbh

[nocturne solstice]

Yes exactly, so if we use your american analogy. We see that California is the highest so we might say if you meet an american you're most likely to meet someone from california. But instead of using states you used the blanket term of "East Coast" to bunch several states together. So you're using the data wrong and misinterpreting it and misrepresenting it.

[small anvil]

Most are 300+

The average raid is 300+

[nocturne solstice]

[small anvil]

You can't torture data like that lol

You can literally add the buckets together to have 300+ and 299-

Wow I wonder which side the "average" is if we do that

[nocturne solstice]

You dont know how to work with data or what averages are so im disengaging from the conversation.

[small anvil]

I am very well versed in statistics lol

This is just like mind boggling

[restive siren]

ok and there is a blind guy being better at playing the piano than 99.99999% of the human population, does that = everyone could do it if they just tried? What experience have you had with casual/bad gamers if i may ask?

[small anvil]

If you have a colleague who understands stats please do run your claims by them, especially the claims about standard deviation.

[restive siren]

i have played with tons of people that really tried

reality just is a lot of them just cannot

[rare grotto]

😂

if u say so

[zenith pike]

genetic skill issue

[restive siren]

and im the one dodging

well got to sleep, was nice chatting gamers

[obsidian venture]

Funnily enough we interact with new raiders or folks trying to improve almost daily

[true talon]

Because its majority of the completions.

[hard axle]

Most of the time, it’s their refusal to do basic Strats that would make their lives much easier.

Something like “watch a video beforehand” so you don’t walk in blind and get frustrated + waste gp on death fees is controversial as fuck.

[small anvil]

People hate doing homework

[hard axle]

Games with overtelegraphed mechanics have basically spoiled the shit out of modern players

[small anvil]

See: Barb assault worlds

[hard axle]

They expect an arrow to literally be hovering over to “do this”

[obsidian venture]

It really is lmao but folks don't want to see past their own bias. People start at a low lvls and rise to a higher lvl over time. It's like are too oblivious to understand that folks that are considered "good" put in the time to get there. People in general gatekeep their own growth

[small anvil]

Like there exist people who cannot react in time to some things sure, most people who don't advance aren't gated by actually limitations like that

[hard axle]

Jagex has designated 300+ on release to be expert mode. They then made the raid overall about 50-75 raid levels easier because WTP and SP were basically never worth selecting, which was one factor as to why so few people actually did expert modes on release and 500s afterwards.

But the moment they changed the invos, added a kit, and made experts worth doing (they weren’t on release), a lot more people did it.

[obsidian venture]

Hard disagree. I personally have helped hundreds if not thousands of folks over the 4 years to get into a better spot in game. Some folks here have been helping DAILY in advice channels and you can see the results for yourself. Don't lump in all endgame as the same and try to look outside your bubble

[hard axle]

I don’t think it’s right to ignore that they outright made the raid easier several times, while not changing their own designation

The Masori backpack kit is 350 for a reason

[small anvil]

Ugly backpack

[hard axle]

Stats are great as support, but they absolutely can leave out key changes that Jagex implemented too

[small anvil]

Or well, the max cape version is ugly

[obsidian venture]

Tryna say we can't see what a casual pvmer does means you're one blind individual. You don't enter a game being good, you get good by applying yourself. Sadly, a lot of players who play this game are casual and do NOT want to improve

You can argue whatever you want but I think everyone here is for a blanket nerf

ALL invos

[hard axle]

The comment about wiki toa percentage also just plain wrong lol.

I don’t have that plugin turned on and most don’t because it’s not on by default.

I want to hazard a guess that wikisync is more likely turned on for the average player than the non-average player.

And this isn’t even factoring in people with bad pcs or laptops that can’t run too many plugins.

[obsidian venture]

otherwise don't just have half high invo rates because it will NOT be worth to run. This will effectively kill high invo raids

[hard axle]

A lot of invos should’ve just been default part of boss. Blowing mud, arterial spray, anything that doesn’t change solos really shouldn’t be its own invo and add 5-20 each time.

[obsidian venture]

I don't even have wiki synq either

[hard axle]

It adds up like 50-60 raid levels easily

[rare grotto]

ppl forget how barebones the raid is and are surprised when i say 150 invo raid isn't even a raid

cause it has barely any mechanics

[obsidian venture]

sub 400 is literally stripped lmao

But if you don't push higher you won't see it

Dunno why it's an issue for folks to run a faster and easier raid more times for the same chance

[hard axle]

It is extremely bare bones sub 300 because you basically can avoid the invos like insanity, stay vigilant, double trouble, keep back, anything remotely ass

[obsidian venture]

The rates are still way better than cox

[obsidian venture]

it's somehow elitist!

[true talon]

Im confused on what people view as low invo.
300 = expert which is around solo chambers difficulty ( i mean doing the raid, not world record speed running it)
400 = slightly above expert prob around CM
500 = pinnacle of TOA in which you basically do the entire raid with no way to heal outside of keris and have to take on stronger bosses.

The only argument i ever seen on why TOA is bad, is due to it being slow and full of 1 shot mechanics that reset you when you make a mistake. (this argument makes it a contradiction that its easy, as endurance test with the ability to die on a single mistake is way harder than running a set path of tiles and only being punished by having to eat or lose ticks if you make a mistake) Its the reason inferno is basically harder than Colo, single mistake on zuk an you spawn outside, at colo you can do sol with no supplys and you have very strong recovery if you make a mistake.

[rare grotto]

fwiw idt it'll kill high invo raids, but maybe there's a weird invo that'll be worth running that u wouldn't do right now. Like say a 460 with specific invos if done under x minutes might be better than 545 post changes

[obsidian venture]

Folks were looking at times/purp chance and around 450s or even 400s would be somewhat better

[small anvil]

What's the threshold where you just straight die to one mistake

[rare grotto]

[obsidian venture]

Can't see the 545 stuff as they didn't post it

[true talon]

I personally like the ability to recover from a mistake, but i do think mechanics that end you when you mess them up is a lot more difficult

[rare grotto]

where's that discussion, am curious

[obsidian venture]

just a friends disc but we were in vc lmao

vlad is a calc fiend lmao

[small anvil]

If purp rates aren't disproportionately rewarding for pushing higher people might prioritize consistency

[true talon]

Longer your in a fight the more chances you have to mess up, then that fight is harder than one that ends before the boss does anything (yama)

[hard axle]

300 is what Jagex designated on release.

Then we factor in the invos that they materially changed (making it easier).

This is around 350-375 for the invos that I listed above.

Wait, I forgot a major change guys

No Help Needed used to give ZERO

[true talon]

They did rebalance the invo's to get people higher.

[hard axle]

Now it give adrenaline + salts

That 25 boost is why 500s are so much easier on release

[rare grotto]

ahnn i see, yeah i can see there being a weird edge case, cause the higher invo u go the harder u get hit by these nerfs. And they usually take significantly more time to do so might indeed be better off doing some 400-500 raid instead

[true talon]

Ya they just ruined the choas pack

[hard axle]

imagine doing the raid with no food, heart only (rip irons),

[hard axle]

But that’s my point

375-400 is now what it was on release for 300s

Chaos used to be so fun man

[obsidian venture]

toa 400s on release was HARD lmao

they made 500s easier

[rare grotto]

knowledge + powercreep also went crazy

[hard axle]

Those three key invos that I mentioned - walk the path, silent prayers, and no help needed increased everyone’s raid level by 75-100

[obsidian venture]

Yeah

[hard axle]

And then adding that onto what JAGEX designated onto expert mode

That’s where we get 375-400 as the minimum for high invos

that’s why I honestly don’t like people saying 300 is expert mode

And ignoring everything Jagex did over the years that made the raid easier even if you have 0 brain cells

Yes, it may have been expert on release but they dialed it back

Lv3 Zebak was terrifying back then

[obsidian venture]

this is like the most disengenuious form of "expert" mode

[hard axle]

And 50% hp

[obsidian venture]

And all these billybobs stick to the word of it being an "expert" raid like gospel

[hard axle]

And Tass has also mentioned this before to about Yama. Jagex may have designed it one way, but it clearly isn’t.

base Yama is well designed, but it’s not an endgame boss without contracts

[obsidian venture]

Tassili unironically agreed that lower invos were spitting out purps

[hard axle]

I keep forgetting how genuinely bad invos were on release to the point that 300s were rough.

I say this as someone who was fuming that he kept picking WTP because it was default loadout and then 10 clears later, someone dragged me onto a no-WTP run and we cleared 5-7 minutes faster.

I probably still have day 1 footage in my hard drives

[obsidian venture]

Also to folks above points about endgame players

How tf do you think guides and strats are made lmao

Yeah it appear out of thin air!

If folks really didn't want to engage with newer pvmers, and didn't want to help, I'd agree with there being more elitism and gatekeeping

[hard axle]

I’ve already explained why the 400- makes sense as the entry point for high invos, which is based on Jagex’s own measurement and actions, so anyone who wants to harp on 300 raid level just isn’t reading

I’d also argue that tob was made easier too. Remember when maiden crabs were rng?

[true talon]

no thats only if you consider low invo to be sub 400 300-500+ holds 78% of the uniques.

yet sub 300 holds 42% of total raids done but only 22% of the items

[hard axle]

Which I explained why 300-500+ doesn’t make sense as high invo and should be 400-500+ minimum, which is 39%.

You were also previously blaming teams, not the raid level, but now it’s scapegoating high raid levels

[true talon]

This data shows that 19% of the player base doing anything above 400 is bringing in 39% of the total uniques

[obsidian venture]

Yeah we have team blamer here and they proved it was solos that were the culprit

[hard axle]

The data not only showed that teams are less impactful than thought at highest possible scenario.

Remember, they tried to flatten the curve on release

300s weren’t worth doing on release

Which is why they modified the drop formula

If you change it back down without changing the lower invos, people don’t do the higher ones, same as before.

[obsidian venture]

yeah 150s were meta for a bit lmao

[hard axle]

People are asking for something they’ve already tried.

[true talon]

I agree teams might of been less impactful, but that was mostly due to the time to form a team is less than sending solo. also we dont know how this data is founded. yama for example 1 kc = 2 global kc.

[hard axle]

Maybe the curve shouldn’t be as extreme, but it shouldn’t be flattened back to irrelevance

[rare grotto]

nerfing everything except low invo just means lower invos will have a bigger pie slice than before

[hard axle]

I’m not even factoring team formation

[rare grotto]

which is just weirdo imo

[hard axle]

Team formation makes teams even worse

[obsidian venture]

Simple concept to understand

[hard axle]

Blanket nerf is good

Remember, these are the same people who cried about not having 4 ambrosias

[small anvil]

46% of purples are coming from under 350 atm

[hard axle]

Yeah, looking at this data point and the fact that 350 now is equivalent to 250 on release, that’s kind of problematic

[obsidian venture]

yeah but we are having these half ass discussions where some prime pvmers think 300s+ only counts

[tiny epoch]

saying 300s are same difficulty as solo olm is crazy work

[hard axle]

^^*

[obsidian venture]

not comparable lmao

[hard axle]

Olm kicked my fucking ass

[true talon]

I didnt say solo olm

i said completing the raid

[tiny epoch]

solo cox means solo olm

[hard axle]

400s are way easier than CMs too because Keris exists

[obsidian venture]

lmaooooo

yeah man solo cox and then I invite a team into olm 🔥

[hard axle]

Let me also state that Keris alone means the raid level is made easier by 50-100 raid levels

[small anvil]

just die many times

poof your points

[true talon]

You can solo olm by just dying. it isnt efficent but it is possible.

you still end raid with 22k points

[hard axle]

You can also suicide wardens endlessly

[hard axle]

Brother

[small anvil]

well, wardens does reset completely

[hard axle]

First solos are like 1k point

was

[obsidian venture]

[hard axle]

What we saying

I can pull up my 6 kc solo

And it’ll be like 842 points

[obsidian venture]

apparently you only die once

good to know

[hard axle]

That’s after watching synq’s guide btw

[true talon]

Yea you shouldnt need more than 20 brews 8 restore to kill olm solo with brute force only

[hard axle]

Idk how long it’s been since you’ve solo’d but most people aren’t running out because it’s too much damage

They just often don’t brew enough

You can survive all of olm just by brewing to 0 stars

Stats

[hard axle]

Yellow Keris is terrifyingly strong and toa-only because of it was in any other raid, it would be broken.

It’s a 0 attack delay full heal.

And all you lose is burst damage.

It aids completions so much.

500 RL no Keris is a whole fucking beast

[true talon]

Yellow keris would actually break the game

[hard axle]

On release people (myself included) thought it was too weak

But once we got it

[chrome lantern]

Yellow keris double deathcharge ez game

[hard axle]

Holy fuck

[true talon]

Cant wait to use my double death charge once i can leave yama jail 1400+ kc an climbing 😦

[hard axle]

Yeah well, 1100 kc and double radiant done

I’m stuck here til the homies are done

[true talon]

my duo finished and went to chambers

[hard axle]

GP isn’t terrible at least

But I’m due like 4 splits

(It’s okay)

[true talon]

same gu y who did 3200 zulrah

he went to cox for a dex after oathplate

[hard axle]

It's worse than I remember

Altered the amount of hitpoints and damage that Path Levels add from +10/20/30/40/50/60% to +8/13/18/23/28/33%.

[true talon]

I just think high hp with low defense is better

[hard axle]

You know defense doesn't cap right

[true talon]

olm for example is ass as fuck if you miss dwh in the past

[hard axle]

ever

well, caps at 600 RL

[rare grotto]

Jesus +60%

[hard axle]

holy fuck

silent prayers was 35

Silent Prayers: Replaced with Deadly Prayers, with raid level reduced from +35 to +20

[rare grotto]

I enjoy akkha because of this, ur v accurate there

[hard axle]

I still think the best solution is to allow more defense reduciton

fang would still be meta in solos

but you won't need it to not want to log off after 1 raid

[rare grotto]

Ralos zeb would go so hard

[hard axle]

Just increase the bosses' regen like akkha rapidly regens

[rare grotto]

Isn't akkhas Regen crazy fast

[hard axle]

yep

that's if jagex is so worried about stat drain

they have options

[true talon]

False, unless you got a fang/shadow this boss is fucking ass.

If you think ahhka is not tanky, go try an kill him in a 350+ without a fang lol

[hard axle]

do u prefer a kephri without blue gem

[rare grotto]

Yeah I shadow the boss

[true talon]

Hell no that thing needs to be nerfed into the fucking ground. kephri without fang or keris is just stupid.

[hard axle]

that's what im saying lol

[true talon]

They need to drastically remove or reduce the defense scaling

these bosses shouldnt be brickwalls unless your in absolute max from the raid

hitting kepri with anything but a fang is like trying to kill release tekton

[rare grotto]

Theyre brick walls even in max (at high invos)

Hasta is p okay at kephri

[minor whale]

Didn't JMods recently say they understood players like high hp low def
Hopefully more future content is geared towards that and doesn't scale def like crazy any time it gets harder

And isn't like a "Hey we know you guys don't like awakener orbs" situation

[earnest marsh]

Plz no, never do that

[hard axle]

Got to be some balance to it. Like Yama being able to reduce to 225 down 145 was good imo

[obsidian venture]

and being 2500 hp

[hard axle]

could've been 112 (50% but I'll take anything over 10%)

huey being 5 out of 125

[small anvil]

think goblin said something earlier about hearing that

but also that it's important they keep accuracty as a balance lever

or smth

in here

[obsidian venture]

[narrow folio]

The defense reduction capping on huey was to limit scythe's effectiveness that's all

Bis but not by too much of a margin

[hard axle]

There will be a reckoning

[narrow folio]

yeah when they remove crush

💀

[hard axle]

that works

[minor whale]

Remove crush
Give all crush accuracy to slash

[narrow folio]

now hold on

[hard axle]

[minor whale]

Or change crush to stab and let it reroll on a miss!

It'll be a hit

[narrow folio]

rework where scythe autos work like claw spec accuracy rerolling

[hard axle]

only if it gets the fang reroll three times for each hit

[tiny epoch]

[minor whale]

Maybe give it 3x damage scaling

[austere mulch]

Drainable def is legit like

One of the easiest things you can have that incentivizes teams

Higher team counts get to allocate more of the team spec usage to dps specs vs draining specs, relative to total available spec

[true talon]

its also one of the worst gameplay mechanics in the game, TOB would be much better if you can just claw or voidwaker for specing over def drain.

[hard axle]

At that point, you might as well just say you want DPS levels to double since you're saying you have problems with accuracy

You know, just take out one of the main components on how you differentiate between attack styles and weapons.

[rain fulcrum]

You already have so much leftover spec after reducing lmao

[small anvil]

Guy that wants to solo everything wants to not have to def reduce

Kinda avg

[rain fulcrum]

I think all raids should have at least 1 boss that can be 0defed

Doesn't have to be all

But 0defing things feels so rewarding

[small anvil]

It's definitely one of the Hallmark things for rewarding coordination

[rain fulcrum]

I also personally like bad specs being a things that can happen but I can get why others don't

[small anvil]

In teams it probably adds to the complexity of the gameplay you could argue

Waiting to see if mauls land then deciding if you maul or bgs sorta thing

But in solo i imagine it's just pain

[meager flame]

Its honestly not really good gameplay people are just glazing group mechanics

Everyone that cares is using plugins and already knows which spec is theirs so all you're doing is reacting to number of hammers that hit

Instead of like actively communicating

[rain fulcrum]

I don't have a problem with that

[nocturne solstice]

Wouldnt even call that glazing

[rain fulcrum]

Just doing the bgs 1t after hammer is satisfying

It's night and day difference between 0defing in lfr and in a real team

[warm storm]

if your team isn't coordinated enough to get on party plugin they probably aren't coordinated enough to use horn correctly

[meager flame]

Its just funny because people act like idk its this crazy team play loop and lol

[rain fulcrum]

You have to decide who backs up who uses which specs etc

[meager flame]

Idk its really not you just learn you're 1 3 or whatever and do your job on sote

[rain fulcrum]

There's a lot more depth to it than just lol use your spec

[meager flame]

Its usually not even communicated and more of a default

[rain fulcrum]

Like how the specs on maiden are designed to line up your tick for your maiden role

Yes because people have worked out what works best and it became a default

But even then people cannot get this right in lfr

So...

[meager flame]

Yeah its spreadsheet gaming and not like actual team boss mechanics

[rain fulcrum]

I don't see the diff

Just whether you planned it in advance

There's never going to be anything in this game that needs voice comms for team play

[hard axle]

[rain fulcrum]

So saying you don't even need to communicate to do it is a moot point

[hard axle]

even if you're playing one of those mmos with 50+ buffs and 50+ debuffs, coordination for shit like stuns/damage increase debuffs matters

[meager flame]

There's a massive difference between deciding everything beforehand and just doing your job and actively reacting to something and working with another person on the spot

[rain fulcrum]

People already are afraid of going into a raid with another person let alone having to VC to clear it lol

[hard axle]

nothing like applying 2x damage status and then someone ultis that target

[meager flame]

The latter is much harder

[hard axle]

7 figure damage

[rain fulcrum]

I loved playing the ice bitch in dn for that

[hard axle]

ah yes

the accurate tbow at the start to be on the right tick

for procs + ralos

[rain fulcrum]

Right? It's so satisfying

[hard axle]

procedure looks like magic when everything lines up

and then chaos when it doesnt

[rain fulcrum]

A good team gets maiden 0defed like 10 ticks faster than lfr

[hard axle]

30 ticks

[rain fulcrum]

Where in lfr you get the everyone entering maiden on a different tick

[hard axle]

lfr is concerning at times

[rain fulcrum]

That's 1 thing I hate about overall time based raids

Nobody waits for the simultaneous entrance

[warm storm]

overall time only matters for hmt and barely even then fwiw

[rain fulcrum]

Toa

[warm storm]

o right that one

[rain fulcrum]

Plus the way you spawn into the bosses in ToA makes it awkward anyway

Since you get teleported in

And I think that happens much quicker than walking thru the barrier where u can spam click

[plush gull]

is anyone else excited for the spec weapon from new varlamore quest? gonna make UIM really good to play, especially with easy blood shards and prayer potion fish from later updates if those are a thing

its a dscim that u get from perdu with a good spec so u can just keep money in ferox coffer and have a good weapon every time u die, no need for any items to do most content

[nocturne solstice]

I forgot what the spec weapon was, it was another 2 hander like the marracas right?

[hasty shard]

wait perdu takes from deaths coffer???

[plush gull]

no its a dscim, and i meant lms coffer

[hasty shard]

oh

brain off

[austere mulch]

X. This gets rid of some of the uniqueness that exists between scales and also

1. If all bosses are 0 def by default, it’s just zcb spam
2. If all bosses have a drain cap, well we see how that went with toa

You effectively limit all scales to basically being the same

Eg. Zcb not viable in solo or in duo mage (until surge pot) because spec gets more value from def drain

And it gets increasingly more impactful as scale increases

That doesn’t exist if def is set to 0 always or has drain caps

[plush gull]

is zcb actually bis anywhere rn, i think it used to be good at levi

the new boots will probably make it worse in comparison to anything else

[tiny epoch]

its still bis at nonawakened levi

need something for sub 400ish hp tho

bis on mage mode akkha

depending on if the 110 will overkill the phase%

[narrow folio]

Have a hard time believing bp isn't bis on akkha even when it hits 110s

[tiny epoch]

in high invo zcb wins

6way zcb beats 7way pipe starting from 455

also like if ur doing 540s & bringing 4way range its pretty bad for bp

[narrow folio]

I guess it is invo and swaps dependent, seems to have a slight advantage there. Once treads come out it seems to lose in all situations until you start dropping swaps...

Well if you bring buckler it's competitive

[tiny epoch]

its kind of a meme anyway because of overkill on the phasing

[narrow folio]

A little too much work trying to calculate if you'll phase it or not true

[warm storm]

zcb is bis spec basically everywhere you can reasonably use it (big hp, not high ranged def)

[hard axle]

zcb is getting harder to balance around because powercreep necesitates higher hp pools to not kill them in 2 seconds

higher hp pool = more zcb specs

[rain fulcrum]

Simply powercreep to the moon

Claws respects power creep

[narrow folio]

Ok there's going to be another defense bonus called spec defense

[rain fulcrum]

Zcb does not

[hard axle]

i believe in the fusion of burning + dragon claws

we shall call it

burning dragon claws

[warm storm]

too wordy

what about bone claws

[narrow folio]

Combine it with bone dagger also

Bone burning dragon claws

[warm storm]

what do you mean by this exactly

(fwiw i think a giga rare weapon from nex deserves its places as bis spec)

[rain fulcrum]

As gear and such gets better, claws and voidwaker get better

Zcb will only ever get more accurate

[hard axle]

sanguine torva full helm, radiant oathplate chestplate, etc.

shit is already word salad-y

[warm storm]

ahh i see what you mean - it doesn't scale with power creep

ya good point

[rain fulcrum]

Sadly we take 5 years to get each melee max

And jagex doesn't want to release good specs for range or mage

So it'll be awhile

[warm storm]

double dc and spec pots scale its power, but that's kind of indirect

[rain fulcrum]

Yeah but also scales every other spec wep

[warm storm]

exactly

[narrow folio]

zcb is so dominating where it's good it'll be a while before powercreeps good enough that it's irrelevant

There could be a bolt rework or something

[rain fulcrum]

There's something about zcb that isn't as fun as claws

[warm storm]

vw and zcb are neck and neck several places at around 22dps

[rain fulcrum]

With zcb you're neutral when you hit and frustrated when you miss

[narrow folio]

zcb you can camp lb and not lose damage whereas with vw you want ultor

[rain fulcrum]

But when you hit a max claw

The dopamine drops

[warm storm]

i dunno i definitely feel dopamine when 110 shows up

[rain fulcrum]

But that's like just expected

The sound gets the dopamine tbh

[narrow folio]

Also I dislike how it drains your hp

[rain fulcrum]

Send that complaint to modmail

[narrow folio]

It's not a discord moderation issue though

[plush gull]

bone claws was a much better name

imo

[narrow folio]

bone claws sounds lame

[plush gull]

lol

[hard axle]

claws of white calcium

[plush gull]

claws of yellow calcium

[rain fulcrum]

Bone claws was a bad idea cuz of what ppl started calling them

[red scroll]

candy corn claws

[warm storm]

them dropping in the game as bone claws after being referred to only as burning claws was pretty funny

like how did that happen

[rain fulcrum]

I'm convinced that's why they changed it

[plush gull]

oh ye thats fair, idk what they were called and i dont want to

[narrow folio]

It just sounded like a noob item

[rain fulcrum]

Tbf doesn't dragon claws also sound like a noob item

[red scroll]

yes

[rain fulcrum]

Rename it to like abyssal claws

[narrow folio]

Bone dagger

[plush gull]

now that u mention it, bone claws makes it sound like they should be sold in lumby caves like bone dagger & bone spear

except they do come from lumby caves 🤔

[warm storm]

rly makes u think

[red scroll]

https://tenor.com/view/cerebro-explosion-mind-blown-gif-8141811

[hasty shard]

oh right we now see the impact of bolt procs having guaranteed accuracy

i was gonna go on a spiel about how bolts are just objective bis when you crank defense insanely high

and like that is just the yama crush contract currently

its kinda nuts how zcb not only has a spec to guarantee ruby procs, it also buffs rubies

[plush gull]

but spec is worse than rubies cuz its not guaranteed

[narrow folio]

needs to pass accuracy check

[hasty shard]

i meant to word that as almost guaranteed

brain lagged and thought i was meant to say that next sentence

[tiny epoch]

just wait until jagex releases enchanted omega ruby bolts

[nocturne solstice]

with how often people said the zcb spec was guaranteed, I was shocked when I finally got one to find out that it was infact, not guaranteed

[plush gull]

doesnt that mean zcb spec is worse than just bolting if ur accuracay is less than 3%

[red scroll]

it might as well be guaranteed as long as you arent shooting a super tank boss

[hasty shard]

my dumb point is that its kinda hard to balance crossbows the later on in progression we get

[nocturne solstice]

I mainly use it in raids (tank bosses)

[plush gull]

is zcb viable at tob besides bloat

[hasty shard]

like are bolt effects an issue? not really im not stupid
BUT we are seeing consequences of how overtuned they can be

[plush gull]

just make every boss immune like tekton (please dont)

[hasty shard]

6:58 with just natural ruby procs (and a few vw spec but w/e) at melee yama contract is nuts
even without the 2x damage, 15 minutes would be nuts

[plush gull]

i need a trailblazer reloaded rerun so I can spam my bolt procs 😭 for some reason i didnt go range in any league

[nocturne solstice]

Imagine if there was no cap on ruby proc tho 👀

[plush gull]

trailblazer reloaded rerun nowww

[narrow folio]

Could make the cap scale off gear

[hasty shard]

quick tangent on bolt balance, reminder of how insanely cheap addy bolts are 😭

summer sweep up changes when

[nocturne solstice]

I did hear some peeps talking about making Shadow dmg/acc boost saling off gear as well so it could be interesting 🤔

[plush gull]

how do i get addy bolts as a uim, i was thinking i could just do the fletching minigame and buy addy cbow components in keldagrim, but then i dont have the smithing level for bolts

[nocturne solstice]

I wonder if it would be worthwhile rebalancing bolts as a whole. Like dragon versions being stronger than the regular bolt variants

[hasty shard]

sepulchre, soul wars

[plush gull]

wait doesnt bolt pouch magically remember stuff even if u delete it

[narrow folio]

scaling shadow off of # gear equipped is a bad idea the more powercreep we get, it'll fall behind

[tiny epoch]

why

[narrow folio]

We're already capped out on gear slots

So it's basically a normal scaling weapon after, and its base stats are bad

[tiny epoch]

you mean the 100% damage cap

[narrow folio]

No the idea was shadow gets x% damage per gear slot that has magic damage

[nocturne solstice]

The way I heard it was something like the current passive s 300% increased dmg and acc stats and we have 8 gear slots to use. We could have say 30% dmg/acc boost per slot.

[tacit wharf]

the magic dmg per gear was capped to what it is right now

[hasty shard]

uncapped accuracy is

[nocturne solstice]

That way new gear still increase the overall damage but the % boost from shadow passive increases per mage gear equipped.

[narrow folio]

Also hard devalues ancestral as an upgrade

[nocturne solstice]

It shouldnt affect power creep since as long as you wear full mage you get the full dmg boost

[plush gull]

couldnt they add a new gear slot tho

[nocturne solstice]

no that would be silly

[narrow folio]

The other megas scale naturally based off of any gear upgrade so it wouldn't be fair for shadow to need some wack new slot created just for it

There could be a combo of both though like have this idea + another multiplier on % like we have now

[hasty shard]

pocket slot when

[plush gull]

also did jagex ever pitch an ammo slot with offensive mage stats or was that just players

[hasty shard]

probably with cox?

[chrome lantern]

CoX original proposals were whack

[hasty shard]

can we get risutoa's effect as an item tbh

[tiny epoch]

im confused why shadow doesnt scale with more gear

[hasty shard]

(but not stack with lb)

risutoa would be pog at duke n moons

[chrome lantern]

I like how even back then they realized just flat out double spec regen was too much

Then fast forward 4 years and we get lightbearer pooped out en masse

[hard axle]

because back then, the community was smaller and it was easier to vote down dumb shit without more people voting yes to it.

Now it's just "oh this sounds cool" even though there's posts about why its bad and those latter posts just get drowned out.

[chrome lantern]

Unfortunately

Failing a poll is hard now

Which sucks

People often don’t even read the blogs at all to begin with

Such as that one guy who raged about thinking Titans scrolls had the same reqs as Chivalry or something because he didn’t bother to read

In this disc

[hard axle]

surge pot almost failing is a perfect highlight of this

[warm storm]

i was a spec pot hater but now that it's in the game i actually don't mind it too much. mostly bc my primary concern of it being too rare didn't come to fruition

[chrome lantern]

Rarity is kinda a side concern to me compared to the fact it’s just -1 inv slot and mandatory upkeep if you ever want to run max eff

[hard axle]

And before anyone says shit, I already made 6k surge pots + over 500m non-combat XP so skilling aint the issue

[chrome lantern]

Also I wouldn’t even really say it’s fine with the limited quantity of tallow I have, maybe just unlucky though

[hard axle]

I still don't like it from a balance perspective because right now, the burst damage coming from it is insane + it would've failed old poll if jagex didn't stupidly change it just for sailing when nothing was failing in the first place.

[chrome lantern]

Yeah polling charter change was unfortunate

[hard axle]

if anything, it should've been 75 -> 80%

we passed a bunch of problematic items

and now we're having to go back to fix it

[nocturne solstice]

A lot of things just get cancelled before they even make it to polls though. The new BiS mage cape, the avernic treads got a lot of reworks, bladed moon got cancelled too.

[hard axle]

it also feels like they're always in a rush to just get to a poll regardless of the obvious flaws people point out before and after

[chrome lantern]

Yeah and then we get to “Uh this is blog revision 6 and nobody likes this version either but we’re polling it!”

[nocturne solstice]

Maybe... I think they just have an inflexible deadline. For example they might always announce 3 months in advance then poll in 1 month which is fine for some things but when there's a lot of discussion around others it feels rushed.

[hard axle]

Don’t rush shit

Having to go back 2 years later is frustrating as hell

[nocturne solstice]

Deadlines are deadlines, alternative would be a boss comes out with no drops until later

[hard axle]

The whole contract system outside of pet contracts has been a mess

[nocturne solstice]

You might be fine with it and I might be fine with it but others might not

[soft vale]

Tiger is f2p. Only the main is bonded at the moment. I propose we scrap the mod vote and I duo battle with Pepsi to resolve any lingering frustrations.

[brave tinsel]

can't wait for the droptable rebalance 🙂

[chrome lantern]

You mean the one where they get rid of all useful food drops and replace them with useless sharks and shark chum? Great.

The only good thing is adding aether catalyst

[hard axle]

I feel like we’re going down rs3 skilling catalyst shit

[chrome lantern]

I don’t even use the thousands of sharks that I have already in my bank, why would I want to fish more

They’re outright worse than karambwans a lot of the time because of attack delay

[hard axle]

I really hope they just load up tables with actual mid-tier or untradeable supplies like TD supply piles

[nocturne solstice]

Well now skilling can be a money maker again

[hard axle]

But yeah going back to contracts, 7/8 just don’t work because they’re either too rare to kept value or too common that it might as well not exist + lock out content.

Pet contracts actually work because it doesn’t gatekeep anything and it’s inherently valuable because it’s a time saver.

[hasty shard]

people raging about farmer/lep changes :3c

that one actually pissed me off so much

[hasty shard]

I honestly think buffing spec bar to 125% would have been less problematic

[obsidian venture]

Holy?

[plush gull]

did they make tecu salamander not lost on death yet

no shot that got lost after multiple weeks with the chin change

[hasty shard]

salamander moves faster than black chin

[plush gull]

dharok says no salamanders for u

💀

[soft vale]

At some point we all have to grow up I guess. 😭

[vestal jetty]

Lol yama is the biggest fail i have seen, the company advertised as end game ultra biggest boss, they can’t even get drop rates correct. Every item their end game boss drops is crashed alrdy and bots r not even out yet 😂

[soft vale]

I do agree the game is struggling to hit the mark but I’ve played this game for 20 years, Jagex has been relatively supportive of my personal wins and failings over the years, and it’s still my favorite game by far.

[vestal jetty]

Yea true but they increase prices ect, fire staff and the updates gotten worse, false promises

[limber briar]

My only issue with yama for the most part is the acquisition contracts I don't think they have a place in the game.

[neon gate]

Remove Yama orbs

The radiant ones are a troll drop at this point

[true talon]

I think the issue with this statement is MAX EFF as not everything needs to be done this way or force you to play this way. same argument can be made about blood shards and dragon arrows. if you want to be operating at MAX EFF then you need to have these be obtainable and by proxy of being an ironman your never operating at max efficiency.

If you as a player feel your forced to do this, then that is a player mental issue, not a game design issue. also Tallow is so common that you wont even have enough torstol to make all the spec pots.

[true talon]

Yama was a great update, its a end game boss and it lives up to its name (regardless of what the .00001% think) i wish they didnt have to spend an entire month working on contract fixes, so the base boss coulda been fixed a little (only minor issues, so that was great) phasing is my only gripe with yama and i feel the 75-50 phasing for base yama would have drastically improved the fight. because currently the fight just ends in a duo before you even have to do anything difficult.

[obsidian venture]

Funnily enough, it’s not about being forced to do it, it’s what make it fun for some people

[obsidian venture]

Yama being an endgame boss at its base is debatable. Contracts are endgame yes but some are not that interesting

[true talon]

If its fun then you do it, dont feel the need to complain that they cant add this item, because you will feel you have to force yourself to obtain it or sustain it.

[obsidian venture]

Some didnt want this to be added

Then they added it and nerfed the effect moreso

Also somehow they allowed this in PvP

[true talon]

The only issue with spec pot was pvp

but that was like lol there is a reason the original spec pots from rs3 were not allowed in pvp

[obsidian venture]

Which is bizarre because they cater to adjusting things for both modes

But this flew by

[earnest marsh]

also the armor taking no time to get vs nex and nightmare

[true talon]

And that was before all the different combos came about

[obsidian venture]

The droprate situation is messy

But it highlights how ass torva is to obtain

[true talon]

Really? ive been at yama everyday since release and im still not done.

[earnest marsh]

what you aiming for?

[limber briar]

they said they were aiming for between bandos and nex grind seems they hit what they were aiming for lol

[meager flame]

tbh their main problem with everything drop wise and contracts

is that they thought they knew best so they didnt say anything to anyone

that is 100% of the reason it sucked

[earnest marsh]

ye i mean tis fine droprate

but nex and nightamre is not

[limber briar]

nm changes will fix that imo

[meager flame]

nah it'll get nerfed again

dw

death by a thousand cuts at least

[earnest marsh]

imagine xD

maybe an 800 hours grind now

for a niche armor set

[meager flame]

idk why they dont just do what they know they're gonna do lol

they just keep inching away slowly closing in on realizing the drop rates at pnm are insane

[true talon]

I mean torva is just a complete waste of time to practically get, your getting 6 str bonus....

[meager flame]

oh for sure

[true talon]

you only go for torva at the absolute end game after tbow/masori ect

[meager flame]

most things are a waste of time where you grind for minor advantages that take more time than they'll ever save you

its just about if jagex was being actively disrespectful or not when they went for the drop rates

which they were with some of the recently named bosses

[earnest marsh]

idk looking it att waste of time

get like 5 more maxhit from rune scim to dragon scim takign like 1 hour

[meager flame]

i mean pnm for example is absolutely a total waste of time

you can just go accomplish everything you might want to accomplish by having the items it drops

before you could even get halfway to rate for looting them

where for a rune scim vs d scim its not a waste

[earnest marsh]

next raid probly going to be crush

[meager flame]

a dscim can save you an hour easily over a rune scim

thats kinda their problem though they'll keep having

they cannot have super marginal tiny upgrades and also be like

go grind for 1k hours to get them

[earnest marsh]

ye xD

[meager flame]

its just not worth it

they can get away with it when its like

this is a twisted bow its the best bow you'll ever have

people might do some dumb shit for that

but when its like

yeah so get your .5% dps upgrade while on crush specifically maybe sometimes at the cost of losing your defensive stats and spend 800 hours doing it

they're just trolling

[earnest marsh]

corp v2 kekw

[true talon]

Also why does inquis helm 4 str?

[chrome lantern]

Me missing only 1 item from log at 500 tallow

I have literally like 6k torstol and 800 seeds

Torstol-limited nowadays is a joke

[true talon]

I have 69 torstol seeds and 3400 torstol i currently have 8600 tallow lol

[chrome lantern]

Well you’re also fairly dry at yama and I doubt you do farming contracts

[hard axle]

me when I technically finished log at 600 kc

https://tenor.com/view/safetyncts-cat-floating-levitating-float-gif-21186201

[true talon]

havnt done a farming contract in like 4 years. if i need any type of seed i go kill shit.

[hard axle]

im confused, you have enough shards to finish oath already if you broke down 4 helmets

like way over

[true talon]

We alright for supplies

[true talon]

I refuse to do it. which is a choice lol. im not mad about still being at yama (i like the boss)

[sacred oracle]

[hard axle]

[true talon]

Supplies are extremely common on an iron for anyone who actually pvms. the worst up keep one is prayer regen but you dont reall use those.

And its only shit because aldarum is absolute trash to obtain.

[hard axle]

(until they sweep it up during summer)

[sacred oracle]

it's fine to get the armor however you want, but using your experience of intentionally not making the armor to make it seem longer to get oath than it actually is seems weird

[true talon]

Thats not a complaint lol, your usng words out of context.

[wispy current]

Was there any response about changing hp/defense scaling in toa

[hard axle]

Hours wise + variance included, yama is still a very easily 2-6x faster to full greenlog than nex

[true talon]

oathplate is not that common. its 1/240 to hit the table with 2/5 rolls being horn.

Well nex is dogshit

[chrome lantern]

Why do you have so few

[true talon]

Because im neglecting my ironman chores for years at time lol

[minor whale]

1/120 to hit table

Each piece of oath is 1/600, 1/200 for any

[true talon]

1/120 is solo rate

its 1/240 for duo. solo rates is on par with phosani nightmare

1/137 to hit table for phosani

The only thing that makes yama a decently short grind is the BLP in the form of shards

by the time your 1500 kc you will prob have close to 900 shards

A bunch of people in my clan went upwards of 2k dry to finish oathplate lol.

If nex had the same system, you wouldnt be at nex very long

IE nihil shards after 450 (average shard count for an expected unique roll) allowed you to craft a piece of torva.

[chrome lantern]

Isn’t it closer to 350

[hard axle]

and frankly, this is still easier. Like I said above, even when you factor in variance and dry streaks, yama is sitll 2-6x faster to greenlog than nex because of the shard system.

[chrome lantern]

Well

“Greenlog”

But yeah basically free on supplies compared to Nex and multiple times faster

[hard axle]

Not only is it faster kill times per kill, but you spend less time recruiting + supplies are easy af

[chrome lantern]

Also worms are abysmal

This was my log at all but 1 from completion

100 worms

Barely any tallow

[sacred skiff]

Well yeah lol you were so busy getting spooned on the actually useful things, no room for worms to drop haha

[gaunt kestrel]

wtf 😭

[true talon]

This log is illegal lmfao

But ya 1450 kills I got like 6k worms

Dunno why only 90 worms drop lol

They felt the need to increase the fire runes when it cost me 2.5m and like 1 hour to scar ess 500k of them

Rune supply basically don’t exist anymore with scar ess

[chrome lantern]

did a few more after

I know I'm unlucky on worms

But like

They're insanely few lol

[true talon]

Ya you only get 90 compared to like 850 catalyst

The worms cost as much as an angler basically

[slender vapor]

Worms+spirit flakes is kinda cracked

[ember token]

diabolic + flakes would be what, 600+ anglers caught an hour?

[earnest marsh]

If we add sailing to osrs, do you want three new tree patch, new land based Slayer monsters, new land based quests, new fletching methods, new farm patches, new teleports, new land based trees

[fossil epoch]

what do you mean "if we add sailing to osrs?
That will happen

[ember token]

i agree, sailing should have 0 islands, you should just sail around in circles on the water, and while we're at it lets cap the xp rates at 30k xp an hour so you have to spend 500 hours sailing in circles

[meager flame]

It might be but it doesn't really work like that angler wise

Time to get flakes and worms makes it kind of funny

[ember token]

yeah it just makes no sense for skills to tie into other skills

each skill should only feed into itself

[thick beacon]

cant tell if there is sarcasm or not in these posts lol

personally i think sailing has exploration tied into it and if that helps other skills i think it makes alot of sense/is cool

i have not read blog but i expected new monsters/farming patches etc

[slender vapor]

Might need your glasses checked

[minor whale]

Please do not be sarcastic it is NOT allowed

[true talon]

Idc what’s added to the game as long as it makes it better. And yes I consider making it slightly easier or more efficient to do things an improvement.

Wanting things to remain slow, tedious and terrible, all because you had to do it. So others need to suffer as well. Is a very not progressive mindset.

It’s not easy scape or removing the fundamentals of the game. It’s evolving and willing to accept change for a better outcome overall. Even if the outcome is against your own ideals. I think sailing will be fine and if it’s a bad skill then I won’t do it. Im just looking forward to all the bought infernal max capers and quiver users being unable to use them till they re-max XD.

[slender vapor]

Asking people to want something antithesis to their ideals is a hard sell

progressive =/= good
not being progressive =/= regressive

fwiw

[hard axle]

It's the same reason moronic reason why people kept asking for nerfs to be polled

And Jagex saying no

[bronze kernel]

How about we just make XP rates or something purely RNG

Every action is no longer consistent XP drpp

True old school experience

[hard axle]

And this is mostly in respect to gear/weapons, but can apply to older skilling methods too:

Replacing older content with new 1:1 (especially if new is way easier) is a common design choice that I witnessed in older mmos used and they died for it. Falling behind in MMOs that do this is very easy if you take a haitus or aren't there during release week, and excessive powercreep to "justify your time" is how you end up with old gear doing 10% of the new gear. Especially if gear is soulbound, far less people end up repeating content after they're personally done.

If you happened to take a haitus and came back in OSRS, your gear is very much still viable and protected by the game's earlier design choice.

[thick beacon]

they might add a way to dismantle it like ca slay helms

either way if u cant get a second quiver/cape i think thats also on u

[tacit wharf]

have only had 2 years to grab yrself a 2nd infernal cape and quiver

[gaunt kestrel]

the humble blood moon and oathplate

https://tenor.com/view/side-eye-suspicious-puppet-gif-2729624127692369191

[thick beacon]

i agree with keeping old stuff relevant to an extent but its inevitable that we move on as well

like whip just isint bis anymore it doesint even tie into bigger weapons anymore

think thats a good thing and acceptable

its still good for progression and relevant for the journey

[earnest marsh]

As long as you cannot rush the content, when new bis comes, its not to bad

Like wow kinda makes old content dead

Like in osrs, you can make like new herb pots with high herblore kekw

Already have 98s but eeh

But smithing fletching

99fletching to make antidragon darrs

[thick beacon]

feel like a pretty cheese easy way is to do bandos torva route

couldve added bandos req to oathplate or something idk

[earnest marsh]

True

I think if Yama was an endgame boss, it was fine rewards

But when they made td weapons

It felt kinda bad designed

[shadow wave]

The point is that whilst bloodmoon is basically 95% of bandos gear, if you brought Bandos gear 5 years ago and log back in now it's not like you need to go out and buy bloodmoon.

[hard axle]

65-85 minutes to get each one back and use while maxing again

Not an issue either way if you got it legitimately because that knowledge sticks with you

[hard axle]

Yeah, if they released blood moon before torva was a thing, people would riot. But now that it's needed to repair torva, it's mostly fine as long as torva keeps up its sink

[distant pendant]

where the give away at

[tacit wharf]

#giveaway

[earnest vigil]

or just immediately max, if sailing releases wednesday ill be 99 by sunday

not that hard

[hard axle]

Yeah, I don't think they'll make it 30k/hr

100k/hr minimum from what I can see lol

[earnest vigil]

even if its low xp/hr i got 82 banked

hopefully

[ember token]

how so

[earnest vigil]

Plus other banked sources

[ember token]

bad news for you, you will not be able to lamp sailing for a period after launch

[tacit wharf]

for just that reason

[earnest vigil]

have they confirmed? last I heard their sailing update for March of 2024 was they
"updated lamp interface"

[tacit wharf]

they've confirmed

[earnest vigil]

got a link?

[tacit wharf]

i know they mentioned again on the last sailing stream

[ember token]

feel like theyve prob said it multiple times at this point

[earnest vigil]

maybe a bug

50/50 sailing launch you can lamp

[ember token]

https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Update:Adding_A_New_Skill:_Sailing_Integration_%26_Lore

ctrl + f Lamp

In addition, to keep the initial launch period of the skill competitive, we’ll prevent all kinds of XP Lamps from giving Sailing XP for the first two weeks after launch. This includes things like Achievement Diary XP Lamps – we want the race to 99 to be fair, after all!

[earnest vigil]

ty ill just stop banking xp lamps

[tacit wharf]

was from march

[marsh oxide]

feels like the "keep old stuff relevant" is often just used as an excuse for people who had to suffer thru bad content that hate the idea of new players not having to do that (MTA/Angler Outfit are perfect examples)

[earnest vigil]

@ember token @tacit wharf beasts

[ember token]

I think more people have the mindset of not wanting things to become dead content rather than wanting to force new players to "suffer" through something

[hard axle]

Except they reworked Angler + MTA for the better

You will always have some people claiming they're "suffering"

[bronze kernel]

MTA still sucks ass (Mainly the Telegrab room)

[hard axle]

We unironically have people saying questing is suffering

and to let them skip all the quests