game-update

[tender harness]

the fuck is a blue dragon bone

[chrome nova]

Might be a hot take but why were they removed to begin with

[chrome nova]

Superior ones, the ones vorkath drops

[tacit wharf]

naw

[chrome nova]

Rune and adamant dragons used to drop 1

[meager flame]

they should never even think about doing that for any reason

lmao

rune dragon alts are strong enough

[tacit wharf]

u mean venny's and bots

[chrome nova]

OK I may have forgotten about those lol

[frail nebula]

There may be some Iron players reading this and worrying about feeling starved of resources all of a sudden, but we don't believe that should be the case. From an economic perspective, even a small nerf in the supply of something like Torstol Seeds from a handful of places can have huge benefits on their value, and we reckon we can make economically significant changes without having Irons feeling a squeeze or resource shortage.
I do kinda want to harp on this again, but this paragraph is quite honestly the single stupidest thing I think I've read in an OSRS blog post, possibly ever.

"Don't worry, Irons, at least mains will make lots of money"

[chrome nova]

Hey according to discord you're not allowed to use that term lolll, surprised adding a 's doesn't still block it

[tacit wharf]

use whatever term i want

[meager flame]

i mean i think what they're basically saying is

you'll get less seeds but it will be enough

and they're probably right

although

[chrome nova]

Are they tho?

[wet smelt]

i dont like the duke change to hp, i think he would be fine with being the same hp

[meager flame]

if you're one of those irons like some people i know that just like

dont do contracts and almost never farm

yeah they're about to own you but

learn to play an iron

[tender harness]

this is the dumbest take I have ever read
the change is over due. Irons got far too used to easy supplies.
deal with it.

[meager flame]

lmao

that sounds toxic but its true

[chrome nova]

With the cox changes? Yepppp

[chrome nova]

This is toxic lol

[winged mantle]

Irons will still have more than enough seeds even after the nerf based on the examples they gave

[chrome nova]

Drops from pvm should let you sustain doing more pvm

[tacit wharf]

no

[small anvil]

Why

[tacit wharf]

u should at most, break even and at best lose suppies

[tender harness]

stop reading into something too much. so tired of people trying to find hidden meanings in something that just arent there to moan its toxic.

[chrome nova]

Stop being toxic then?

[tender harness]

it literally isnt toxic

just because you disagree with something does not make it toxic

[frail bough]

I don't think there is ever a world where the supply cost for a boss will ever be so significant where removing seeds and stuff from bosses ever actually makes a difference.

[tacit wharf]

????

[tender harness]

this is toxic

[true talon]

Considering what ive already killed, this is still an insane ammount of supplies.

[tacit wharf]

i have disagreed with (and they have disagreeded with me) a lot of people in this chat/channel and never once would call them a slur

[small anvil]

Many irons have commented too

[tacit wharf]

and if im being frank, that is toxic as hell

[tender harness]

starting something with no offense then proceeding to berate someone does not give you a freepass to be toxic

[frail bough]

I know it'd be a little crazy, but I think it would be interesting removing all supply drops (period) from pvm

Like for a year or something

[compact flicker]

We are currently getting an unhinged amount of seeds from pvm in general, some places we even get more back than we use. Reducing it seems fair we just have to wait and see what they will propose

[small anvil]

There would be way too much inflation then

[frail nebula]

We have seen what they propose

And what they propose is bad

really bad

[tacit wharf]

says u

while most of use find it fine

[tender harness]

says you. literally irons and mains have both said it is fine and over due

[obsidian venture]

The proposed change is healthy

[tender harness]

you are just crying because they are nerfing free supplies

[tacit wharf]

yikes

[frail nebula]

this is what you say all the time, respectfully

[frail nebula]

okay just to be clear for you, I don't actually mean that

but that guy says that kinda stuff unironically all the time

[compact flicker]

Yes and I agree with what they are doing, not as bad as it sounds

[valid jolt]

lets not be rude please

[tender harness]

???? did you not see the response

[valid jolt]

if yall have issues with each other hit the block button and call it a day

[obsidian venture]

In regards to content* big difference. You’re just straw manning here

[frail nebula]

fr I wish discord actually had a useful block feature

but it's the single worst block implementation I've ever seen

[tacit wharf]

still see an annoying "blocked msg" pop up, but thats more a discord thing than a you guys thing

[compact flicker]

Ignoring is more powerful than blocking 🧘‍♂️

[valid jolt]

i knowww wish we could do something about it haha

[ornate needle]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-zen-meditation-gif-13277341

[obsidian venture]

If only

[tender harness]

oscord mods slacking per usual

[frail nebula]

you literally say that all the time lol

you were saying it like an hour ago

[ornate needle]

or just act like adults

Just because you don't see action taken doesn't mean it hasn't. Some is behind the scenes, it's bad to assume we're just punsihign one person, thats not the case

[valid jolt]

please disengage with this user and just block them and move on

enough you 2 pleasssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[frail nebula]

fine but I'll still wish discord actually fixes blocking

or finishes that "ignore" feature

that works like block should have always worked

and doesn't show you the blocked messages

[ornate needle]

FR, were with you fella

[obsidian venture]

I’d rather folks stop using misinformation to argue is all. Simple ask

[ornate needle]

what you have to remember is not everyone knows all the efficient ways, its better to try and be mindful of that and help learn. I think if we start raging at each other for misinfo it doesnt go anywhere good

[frail bough]

Eye of Ayak + confliction gauntlets + fire spells + NYLO 🤯

[ornate needle]

I understand its frustrating, but bare in mind they may also feel they're helping. If you feel they're not being genuine all we can say is use discords useless block feature

[frail nebula]

I think yelling "misinformation" often only serves to add conflict in a disagreement

[hasty sequoia]

Have the mods said if we will be able to melee kree with a halberd?

[ornate needle]

Exactly yeah 🙂 I might think goblins are fastest xp per hr, tell someone here then find out not

[obsidian venture]

Efficiency is not taken into account tbf. Just general stuff. But I’d also say that the person doing so, often does this. I’m not going to call out something on a one off occasion

[tender harness]

but nobody is raging at anyone.
but using leagues experience to comment on a boss in main game with 0 kc 0 experience in the main game is misinformation
leagues boss KCs are not the same. what you do, how fast things die. it just isnt comparable.
and if you have 0 kc in main game how can you have an opinion of something

[frail bough]

Was talked about at runefest, not entirely certain it was confirmed or not but I'd suspect it would be allowed given the Zulrah change.

[civic ginkgo]

Why did I hear this in a whiny kids voice?

[rare grotto]

true but how else do you call out ppl just plainly ragebaiting

[frail bough]

Runefest was basically an eternity ago 😢

[frail nebula]

they did say that, though it also didn't sound like meleeing kree would be even remotely practical

[ember token]

kree is an aviansie

[ornate needle]

Absolutely, not everyone will know the best ways and often engage with misinfo. Best to block that person and try give what you believe is the correct advice to the other person

[tender harness]

Nobody asked for your input good lord

[ornate needle]

It's a shitty situation, we can't go round banning people for having a differing opinion, even if its wrong

[true talon]

Goblin did say this

[frail nebula]

yep Kree is an aviansie

[tender harness]

when people are objectiely wrong I sure do.

[frail bough]

This just in, Kree is an aviansie - ignore what I said.

[hasty sequoia]

Thanks

[obsidian venture]

There’s one thing to have an opinion, and another to argue something known to be wrong. While blocking is a simple fix, it does great disservice to allow that in the channel

Like I can block someone, but everyone else can still read what they say

Like how 1t is 25% dps difference

Yet folks were arguing that

[frail nebula]

What was the context for that?

[obsidian venture]

Going from a 5t to a 4t

[small anvil]

25% more vs 20% less?

[slender vapor]

https://i.imgur.com/GChtBAd.png

Ngl, even as an iron, these changes/rates aren't the worst, you'll still profit pots doing these content

[minor whale]

Yeah unfortunately just blocking someone just lets that misinfo propogate endlessly, then when called out getting told we're trolling them doesn't help the channel at all
A lot of times new players just look in here and take the first thing they see at face value, which is REALLY not good when 90% of the people who know about the game have someone blocked and now the only person seeing the bad information is the new person
That's not really the case in this instance but it has happened recently with some people and it's a shame

[ornate needle]

Idk what to say dude, we just ban people who have shit opinions? What do you think is the fix?

Genuinely asking here btw

[frail bough]

We see this a lot with particular individuals who can't afford runescape membership and blame it on Yama contracts.

[frail nebula]

I mean, purely going from 5t to 4t is a 25% dps increase, isn't it?

[small anvil]

The blanket answer of just block each other doesn't work

[frail nebula]

You'd land 25 hits in a minute vs. 20

[small anvil]

Is the gist of it

[obsidian venture]

No need to ban. Just intervene and tell them to drop the topic because IT IS false info

[frail nebula]

Or am I misunderstanding the context here

[ornate needle]

Okay, but what does work?

[tender harness]

Nobody is asking for that or saying that. but standing on a soapbox and arguing something that is wrong and has been proven wrong isn't healthy or beneficial to anyone. blocking doesn't solve that nor does ignore

[ornate needle]

Do we not do that when we are pinged? Also bare in mind we're not efficiency nerds, i have no clue is 1t gives me more xp or x% increase

[small anvil]

Looking at the context and disciplining the instigator and person who actually went too far

[ornate needle]

So how do we fact check this stuff?

[small anvil]

Instead of just assuming both are wrong

[tacit wharf]

what we did in another public server, was revoke access to certain channels, if people dont seem to want to behanve themselves

[small anvil]

When things get uncivil

[true talon]

Sorry that you cant engage with a constructive arugment to counter the point of what the other person is stating, so you resort to blocking them or ingoring their side. even when said side has shown proof backed by numbers, you are on the fence of oh magic should be weaker, so my solonodunoflysweattouchgrass method is considered the best and im so special, since i can do it and no1 else can oh yea look at me go with my bando's running 4 tiles

[frail nebula]

I feel like there's some equivocation here between being wrong and not behaving oneself

[obsidian venture]

Again, efficiency is irrelevant. You do hop in but you simply say to move on, which also doesn’t really help. It would do more to tell folks that the info is wrong and THEN to move on

[small anvil]

It's more work but just telling both to block each other is just band aid and doesn't actually make the interactions better

[ornate needle]

How do I know that info is wrong?

[minor whale]

I'd probably wager that the best way to fix things is to have mods be more present in the channel and to take reports about people who spout off nonsense endlessly despite being proven wrong over and over and over and over and over again seriously rather than just telling everyone to move on at the slightest of disagreements of mentions of toxicity
But it's hard for mods to know the truth of all contexts, but when you get a half dozen reports from regulars that typically know what they're talking about it gets a bit frustrating that it's just ignored over the new person that everyone in the channel agrees is trolling

[ornate needle]

This is my point. I really appreciate your feedback here guys, will be passing it on for feedback for the team 🙂

[obsidian venture]

Usually the wiki hosts information that pertains to this

[idle summit]

😴

[minor whale]

Or when shit like this just isn't helpful at all gets posted when they're not even the person being discussed

[small anvil]

Inb4 I edit the wiki to win my discord argument

[true talon]

nonsense is subjective my guy, your trying to police people who have different opinions from you.

[ornate needle]

Anyone else got anything else they want to add before I head off? passing this whole convo to wider team and we hope we can improve things for al in the future 🙂

[tender harness]

me omw to edit PNM to support my experience in leagues

[minor whale]

Tassili you might have shit takes but you're not block-worthy
You sometimes make decent arguments despite me disagreeing with you about 95% of the time

[obsidian venture]

Otherwise folks that have been engaging in the community for years and have done calcs to prove it so, can step in. Which we have

[frail nebula]

The wiki is very good but it is genuinely not always entirely accurate

[true talon]

Still waiting for you to show me numbers to prove that making demonbane 4 tick would somehow be game changingly broken at yama. and not just a straight up side method to melee.

[ember token]

anyone can edit the wiki, so if you see something wrong, you can fix it

[tacit wharf]

more accurate than 99.9% of other wiki's

[obsidian venture]

The numbers were provided last night

[true talon]

no they werent?

[obsidian venture]

I’m pretty sure @minor whale posted them

[frail nebula]

oh yeah it's a very good wiki, all things considered

[small anvil]

Melee is not 25% better than maging is it?

And mage is way more afk

[frail bough]

It's literally the best wiki, and we have everyone here to thank for it.

[obsidian venture]

This tbh

[minor whale]

On enrage, when mage tank and his mage defense is at his highest, buffing Dark Demonbane to 4t would make it on par with melee dps in max gear
Which is pretty insane, yes

[frail nebula]

Mage is way more chill at Yama tbh

[small anvil]

I ain't done shit to deserve praise for the wiki

[frail nebula]

even if the DPS is a fair bit lower

[small anvil]

Ok data deserves praise

[true talon]

what? you have to actually do the mechanics not click 4 tiles and do bando's while auto pathing over every mechanic lol.

[frail bough]

I can legit go grab a beer from fridge, drink it, go back and grab another one, and then have to switch my prayers after the first attack goes off and it swaps to next glyph.

In short, I agree.

[obsidian venture]

Why do you want to buff an afk method at yama

[small anvil]

Also like mage gets the fireball reduction

[naive lake]

They said I was stupid for buying 8 fangs! Who's laughing now???

[minor whale]

Alright man
Once again disengaging with the 1 of 3 people in the world who thinks maging Yama is somehow hard

[true talon]

its not afk? p1/p2 are already same difficult for magic/melee

[small anvil]

So the damage would be beyond melee

[minor whale]

It's just not worth the discussion at this point

[small anvil]

Melee is harder cuz you actually have to swap prayers

[true talon]

2% Ge tax

[minor whale]

A mod will just step in and say "Let's move on guys all input is valid :)))"

[small anvil]

It's not that hard to understand lol

[obsidian venture]

Clearly it is

[true talon]

What? its 8 ticks. lol

[small anvil]

I click way less doing mage in all phases of the fight

[naive lake]

2% on 15m is a lot less than 2% on 170m, and I'm holding longer anyways

[obsidian venture]

🫣

[small anvil]

You do the jad thing where you pray melee then reactively mage/range prayer

[frail nebula]

I mean, it's 8 ticks versus... a lot more than 8 ticks

Melee is clearly harder

But more DPS

As it should be

[small anvil]

Plus you have to walk the boss without losing hits

[frail nebula]

That's not the same thing as saying melee is extremely hard

[obsidian venture]

He’s saying it’s easier. See why this is dumb to argue

[restive sapphire]

Since zuk helm solves the speedrunner slayer problem wonder what're they gonna do for the slayer blog

[true talon]

Literally told me he didnt read the question in full and only took back on what you two said with incorrect calcs lol. nice nit picking.

[obsidian venture]

Still answered in the sentence before

[frail bough]

There's literally so much 😭

[minor whale]

Told you it's not worth the argument
A jmod can say he's wrong and melee is harder and he'll just go "nuh uh mage is"

[obsidian venture]

I’d love for him to explain speed running to a j mod

[small anvil]

Tass don't you mage it?

[true talon]

He said melee is harder to not lose ticks, which is correct.

[obsidian venture]

He doesn’t (but argues like he does)

[frail nebula]

Do you think that melee is easier or harder than mage at Yama in general?

[true talon]

I dont, i melee. when im with my duo i mage so he gets fairer contribution since hes not max.

[mortal ore]

I think i have an idea for the fang for toa, what if fangs stats are reduced but you add an item to toa to give it that stats back but make it a mega rare

[worn token]

why would they nerf seeds instead of buffing farming this update is so bad

[small anvil]

That would have the opposite effect lol

[obsidian venture]

He’s a chat mod, not a j mod

[mortal ore]

Shit

[minor whale]

So when maging you
Sit still for 24 ticks camping 1 prayer
Wait at the glyph for specials
Can line up on the criss-cross flame specials and click back and forth between 2 tiles with 2 ticks of leeway
While doing nothing else
P3 you walk around 3 total tiles to dodge bombs and waves while changing prayers every 8 ticks

[true talon]

I think yami is much harder mage if solo, due to longer kill times and having to actually time waves/fireballs dodges and prayer swaps.
I think yami in a duo mage is much easier but thats because the boss dies before he does literally anything.

[frail nebula]

yeah discord mods, why aren't you updating osrs for us

[minor whale]

And you think that's HARDER than melee

[naive lake]

I'm excited to bring a purging staff with fire surge to ice demon and see how much faster I can annihilate it

[frail nebula]

So melee is easier because you don't have to deal with the fight for as long?

[worn token]

at least you can take 40% of seeds away but give a buff to doing farm runs or else irons r just shit out of luck

[small anvil]

Seed prices are tied to herb prices

[tacit wharf]

irons are fine

[frail nebula]

Time to farm toa for the next few months

I guess

[small anvil]

The point is that irons profit supplies

[true talon]

a lot of the prayer changes overlap with the bomb dodge btw, you need to time your attack to not lose the extra tick, get prayer correct and dodge at the sametime, this is much harder than auto pathing though waves and dodging fireballs.

[small anvil]

While doing content

[frail nebula]

Not all content

[small anvil]

Many of the contents being nerfed

[true talon]

Correct, melee does not have to do basically any of the mechanics due to the fight being over before he does any mechanics.

[frail nebula]

Only certain places are technically profitable and that profit takes care of the rest of the content you do

[worn token]

yama took 1000 pray pots and hasn’t given any back 😂

[small anvil]

Not gonna claim you profit at nex lul

[zenith prairie]

Really wish KQ and more importantly Corporeal Beast received some love in the updates today. Loot tables are trash and need a refresher. Something needs to change at corp to stop the teleport simulator game we all play there

[obsidian venture]

Part 2 most likely

[frail nebula]

The problem with severely nerfing the few places that are profitable is that you might not have anywhere near enough supplies to do the content that isn't profitable anymore

[vernal valve]

So, if mage had the same DPS as melee, that would mean...?

🤔

[restive sapphire]

Corp rework this sweep is cope

[zenith prairie]

Part 1 is combat, part 2 likely won't have any more boss changes

[small anvil]

You mean the iron might have to skill?

[minor whale]

Mage is already easier
And he wants it to be both easier and equal dps

[worn token]

“just do master farmers for 10 hours” i can already see it man smh

[frail nebula]

Skilling isn't a significant source of herb seeds though

Herb seeds largely come from pvm

[true talon]

Mage would be on a even playing field making the fight slightly easier for magic but youd still have to interact with the actual mechanics of dodging fireballs and proper prayer flips and wave skips.

[frail nebula]

You get them from contracts, yeah

But that's the main source

[tacit pendant]

Are we back on the stupid purging staff buff thing? Really?

[small anvil]

Like on a macro level content profiting supplies

[true talon]

not much would change from duo other than magic would be a viable option to someone who doesnt have 2 synpases.

[tacit pendant]

Ban the topic from this channel please

[small anvil]

Is just not healthy

[vernal valve]

I mean not really, it's not going to happen and no one seriously thinks it will.

[obsidian venture]

Tag a chat mod

[frail nebula]

geek

[minor whale]

Yeah he took a Jmod flatly saying "no, mage is already easier" as somehow being potential for it being added

[frail nebula]

where do you think irons get their herb seeds from

[sterile pilot]

wait did the summer sweep-up update already happen or is it happening in the future?

[tacit wharf]

what pots are u actually losing? prayer? stop camping protects/offenses during slayer tasks

[true talon]

Thats not what he said but ok.

[tender harness]

the amount of crying for these changes is comical
these seed changes are fine. plenty of irons and mains agree

the fact you didnt capitalize on easy seeds soon enough is a you issue. literally deal with it

[restive sapphire]

If a way to 4t demonbane exists it will come from the
Belibinis ward a megarare offhand that will make arcane shield even more irrelevant

[frail bough]

just blog to start discussions

[sterile pilot]

ahhh okay thanks!

[small anvil]

From drops from all sorts of content, toa being a big source afaik

[frail nebula]

Yes

So how is skilling going to replace that

[worn token]

lmao I just don’t agree with their logic of reducing seed rates to help mains that’s comical

[small anvil]

Do your contracts

[obsidian venture]

Helps the economy

[tender harness]

its not healthy for the game
it helps the economy

[frail nebula]

Contracts don't actually give you that many herb seeds

[tender harness]

use your brain

[restive sapphire]

They aiming to release these after july

[obsidian venture]

The nerfs aren’t significant enough to really make a dent for irons

[restive sapphire]

Assuming varlamore part 3 is on schedule

[frail nebula]

No, it definitely is

[small anvil]

Contracts are more meta than master Farmer no

[worn token]

that’s not even a huge part of the economy before the seeds were just not available in general

[frail nebula]

It's not going to make a dent for irons who have years of accumulated seeds from that PvM

But it absolutely is going to make a huge dent for newer irons

[frail bough]

Can you direct me to where this was posted?

[naive lake]

We used to have mains complaining about updates benefiting ironmen. Now we have Ironmen whine about Jagex caring about mains.

[tacit pendant]

@dull sigil sorry to ping but purging staff buff arguement has been nothing but hot air and clogging this channel. Can we get a hard stop on discussing whether purging staff should or shouldnt be changed

[obsidian venture]

They were for a good while. Would check the torstol example as one of many

[frail nebula]

Respectfully, Bane, I don't actually think you know as much as you think you do about the supply of seeds for irons

[restive sapphire]

Look at the roadmap on runefesr

Sweep is after varlamore part 3
Part 3 they aim for july

[worn token]

because torstol seeds were not on many drops tables or in large amounts at all 😂

[tender harness]

Respectfully, Bane, I don't actually think you know as much as you think you do about the supply of seeds for irons

new copy pasta sweet

[small anvil]

Torstols are like so cheap since coming back

[obsidian venture]

Muspah and Toa were complete game changers

[obsidian venture]

Love it

[frail nebula]

They were, because they were a huge pain point before this

I'm concerned about going back to that

Since I think the days before that were much worse

[small anvil]

They're still on the table

[obsidian venture]

Right but that’s why there needed to be balance but they waited for far too long

[frail bough]

ty ty

[restive sapphire]

They taxing us 2% ge already may as well tax supplies from every bank

[frail nebula]

Them being added at all was the needed balance

As far as seed supply is concerned

[obsidian venture]

Not in those amounts

[frail nebula]

There weren't good sources

And nerfing it there doesn't magically create other good sources elsewhere

[obsidian venture]

If it was balanced, we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now

[valid jolt]

lets not name call people please 😅

[obsidian venture]

Went from too few to too many

[frail nebula]

I wouldn't be as bothered about it if they actually tried to redistribute seeds elsewhere

[obsidian venture]

That’s fine

[frail nebula]

Perhaps, but my concern is that we're going straight back to too few, and Jagex doesn't appear to have thought much about this

[worn token]

right but 3 years after release is when we need to have this convo?

[frail nebula]

Because their reasoning in the blog post is paper thin

[small anvil]

I do think distributing more widely would have a funny effect

[obsidian venture]

Keep in mind that new content will have some more sources

[true talon]

Well all they are trying to do is police peoples opinons as it doesnt support their own.

[tacit wharf]

instead of dumping all the seeds into one or a few locations, they can now add them to more sources spreading them out, in the future (seeds)

[obsidian venture]

Jagex knows they have been slow so unfortunately yes

[small anvil]

In that you could drop more and some would despawn

[frail nebula]

Spreading them out would be great

[small anvil]

Because you can't reliably stack single items

[frail nebula]

But that's not what we're seeing here

[obsidian venture]

Even the toa purple rebalance was needed moreso near release

[worn token]

i agree with this and instead of so many alch drop tables seeds or farming buffs would be nice

[obsidian venture]

But they waited till shit was in the bin

[small anvil]

But like even irons have talked about supplies being so plentiful

[tacit wharf]

but they first have to knock those high sources down first

which to be frank is muspha and toa atm

[small anvil]

I appreciate the fear that jagex never reaches step 2 though lol

[left wolf]

Have those changes been applied yet on the latest post?

[deft barn]

@winter hearth any hint as to how 1 extra tile makes ralos more useful?

[small anvil]

No

[tacit wharf]

havent done much of either and i still have a huge surplus of torstols atm (sitting on 4k herbs in the bank)

[tacit pendant]

Vespula maybe?

[tender harness]

zuk

[tacit pendant]

Oh yeah longrange will hit zuk

[true talon]

It doesnt lol.

[slender vapor]

https://i.imgur.com/fXtC32v.png

Seed nerfs aren't really that bad tbh

You'll get more than you use

A lot more

[left wolf]

Save run one tile run energy

[deft barn]

They clearly have something in mind with "should open up some new use-cases and improve existing ones"

[small anvil]

Herb box nerf is so big lol

[plush gull]

6 tiles hits zuk, it will let rapid hit zuk

[small anvil]

30% less profit from nmz!

[true talon]

It can hit zuk and maybe vespula portal, other than that nothing.

They shoulda reduced its attack speed if they wanted it to have an actual use

[worn token]

but what about content that soaks up all your resources without any back? it balances out imo and newer content seems to push toward less supply gains so there’s a need for places to have surplus gain.

and if it’s not that crazy of a nerf then it won’t have any impact on the economy like they’ve stated

[true talon]

coulda become 4 tick double hit ranged wep

[restive sapphire]

We have been waiting for new niches for a year and they havent given tonals its day

[plush gull]

im surprised it isnt already meta for first capers to calmly walk the shield for 10 minutes between 480 and 600 hp to 0 hp zuk

0 def*

[tacit wharf]

like?

[tender harness]

herb box is nmz right?

[small anvil]

Yeah

[tender harness]

I have like 50 million points I dont even buy boxes

[tacit pendant]

Reducing attack speed would be sick. Honestly it should just be 10 tiles to future proof it and hit everything you might tbow

[small anvil]

Only being able to get so many per day is silly

[frail bough]

I don't get why NMZ is still in the game. They wanted to remove that shit like 8 years ago.

[worn token]

yama, araxxor?

[tender harness]

the fact I have so many points and will never use them

[worn token]

cerb, tds?

[tacit pendant]

Nmz is fine. Its been crept if you are in the know. And its a convenient and easy suggestion for people not in the know. Rings should just drop imbued tho tbh

[obsidian venture]

Think it’s fine to not always profit resources

[worn token]

you don’t though 😂

[vernal valve]

personally I've got a theory that any content they put Imbues in is fundamentally cursed

[tender harness]

NMZ is free for WFH andies too I dont like it but it makes afk melees brain dead really

[tacit wharf]

yama is an end game boss, it should be sucking up supplies

araxxor isnt much supply use

td's stop camping offensive prayers

cerb they are adding ranarr's and have an arcasuss spell to have less prayer drain

[obsidian venture]

Some pieces of content you use little

[tacit pendant]

Imbues are dumb, itd be different if it was charged / corrupted with something tradeable but

[worn token]

and some take everything? what’s ur point

[obsidian venture]

And if you’re doing late/endgame content, you should already have a stockpile

[tender harness]

real. I still think nex should be consuming more supplies

[tacit pendant]

Yama consumes all my dramen staffs, wym?

[tacit wharf]

lol

[small anvil]

Get the elite diary

[worn token]

that’s still examples of net negative by 1000s to reach green log

[obsidian venture]

Only time where I’ve seen an iron complain about upkeep is when it relates to speeds. Then they usually de iron 🤣

[tacit wharf]

irons who complain about upkeep, tend to be irons who dont upkeep their supplies

[rain fulcrum]

Just de iron

[worn token]

lol yall r wild can’t even make good points just hate on irons

[tacit wharf]

low on prayer pots and ranarr's, master farms are not hard to pickpocket

i am iron

[worn token]

yeah let me just do that for 10 hours that’s good content

[tacit wharf]

🤷

iron life is simple work

[tacit pendant]

Iron is literally do chores to pvm?? Thats the endgame always has been

[idle summit]

if u just wanna pvm deiron and do bronze man

[vernal valve]

idk how to tell you this but iron's existed a long time before all of the infinitely varied seed sources came into the game

[worn token]

or you can do pvm so u can do more pvm crazy i know

[austere mulch]

Gotta train the skill anyways 🤣

[restive sapphire]

"endgame irons are just norms without alts that do a few hours of potion making every few months"

My iron friend and pnm retiree

[vernal valve]

it's literally never been easier to get seeds and pots, and it'll only keep getting easier over time

[tacit pendant]

Yes thats called mains

[worn token]

i got my blood shards n crystal shards dw

[vernal valve]

a slight nerf now isn't the biggest deal in the world

[worn token]

def not but the reasoning doesn’t make any sense but to nerf ironmen imo which is odd

[vernal valve]

how in the world do you suppose they can balance drop tables without nerfing

they're not "nerfing ironmen" they're just balancing the game

insert "no nerf, only balance" meme like wwd

[tacit wharf]

nerfing instances of overly buffed sources of seeds, all they are doing

[formal sentinel]

You can easily do Yama with Moonlight Moth instead of Prayer pots, and whatever food you want. Only big supply cost investments are combat pots if you melee and runes if you mage tho.
Like if that's too much supply usage for the "grind your own supplies" game mode, maybe that game mode isn't for you?

[worn token]

then they can spread the seeds to more drop tables? why is ToA being attacked when it’s so miserable anyways

[tacit wharf]

...

[austere mulch]

I think the issue here really lies in drops being historically way too generous, particularly for irons (because it’s a net negative for mains when economy poops) - and trying to correct it now, after years of compounding, it effectively feels like a targeted nerf

[slender vapor]

It's about to be nerf hammered and made way easier to power grind

[worn token]

lol you have yet to do 1000 kills obviously

[formal sentinel]

I'm a main, so don't have to worry about grinding supplies. But when maging, soul runes are the only real cost...

[deft barn]

oh wow that actually seems super useful though compared to just maiden right?

[vernal valve]

they will almost certainly add it to future drop tables? that's like, explicitly part of the reasoning. If people can already get infinite supplies of things that already exist in the game because drops are so oversaturated, what room does that leave for future content without obliterating the scarcity of existing items? If ToA already sucks, I don't know why you care about its loot concentration being spread out amongst future content

[tacit pendant]

Deiron. The gameplay loop you are looking for exists and is more popular. Also moths are literally meta at top level for yama

[worn token]

But it won’t raise seed prices anyways imo

[worn token]

because the good part of the suffering is the loot duh

[austere mulch]

Too little too late type of thing, not unusual unfort

[formal sentinel]

If you want to do 1000 kills, yeah. It should take a chunk of supplies. If you don't want to grind that, don't play the mode where the point is to have to grind that?
Like why play it then

[worn token]

well you wouldn’t understand then lmao you answered that for yourself

[velvet token]

With sailing coming out there will be new resources for irons to help compensate for the drop table nerf anyway

[frail nebula]

Respectfully, this is a profoundly unhelpful argument that does nothing but stir up fights

[worn token]

why assume i don’t like the game mode instead of trying to make it more enjoyable?

[rain fulcrum]

Nah it's accurate

[frail nebula]

No, it's just rage baiting

[rain fulcrum]

If you don't want to play like an iron then deiron

[tacit pendant]

Respectfully, ironmen have to do chores. Thats ok.

[formal sentinel]

Because you're complaining about the most major difference and point of the game mode? lmao

[idle summit]

just pvming isn't what Ironman is

[worn token]

lol

[frail nebula]

"If you didn't like playing an iron 3+ years ago before seeds were readily available, you shouldn't be able to enjoy it now"

The game has changed

[bleak crag]

Im and iron and i think all of the changes look great. Not a huge fan of manta rays basically being removed from all tables. I like my stack of mantas lol.
But I'm highly.looking forward to this rebalance

[rain fulcrum]

Or lazy flick defensive for all of Yama and you'll use zero supplies ez

[tacit pendant]

Jagex clearly feels this way about seeds

[tender harness]

seeds will still be available even after the change
like again non issue and when more irons and mains agree with this than not

its a you problem

[formal sentinel]

On a boss that really doesn't use a lot of supplies per kill, too. Even when not flicking

[velvet token]

I miss the days seeing snap seed being 90k plus ea 😂

[frail nebula]

They were only 90k plus because you didn't get any

So they didn't even make you more gold

[formal sentinel]

Especially low for the time to kill and drops

[frail nebula]

Which is another key point here that I feel is kinda lost

[restive sapphire]

The days of 200k magic seeds...

[frail nebula]

Making them drop less doesn't cause you to magically make more money

[worn token]

it’s like 1 and half pray pot per kill with melee build wym

[formal sentinel]

The worms + Spirit flake combo gonna go hard for you, too

[tacit pendant]

It makes thieving better

[velvet token]

I do alot of slayer so I stack up a good amount to sell

[tender harness]

making them drop less prevents them from hitting a floor that they have no business hitting

[frail nebula]

the days of manta rays are over

[hard axle]

So ToA is being made easier

[frail nebula]

the day of anglers is upon us

[worn token]

no it makes it the main source potentially which is lame

[tender harness]

3 years later
only a year later for them to revisit elemental weakness too

[small anvil]

Farming contracts

[bleak crag]

I might have missed it in the blog. When will the rebalance take effect? And any word on if it will be in batches or one big update?

[hard axle]

Akkha is being made slightly more annoying, but everything else sounds like a nerf

[small anvil]

Irons get chores, that's the game mode

[tacit pendant]

You can feel that way, but many people want resource gathering skills to matter and not just be pvm

[frail nebula]

Thieving being the main source of basically anything in the game is severely unhealthy for the health of the game

Since it basically just makes it so bots are 99.9% of the supply of that iron

[worn token]

not at all lol you don’t understand it

[velvet token]

@bleak crag am guessing we will see a few of them on a weekly basis during the summer

[analog crow]

Seeds confirmed troll drop 😔

[frail nebula]

So how much ironman mode have you played

[hard axle]

Oh thank god they actually mentioend the problematic drop rates

and scaling

[tender harness]

fang to 15m

[slender vapor]

Fang to 50m soon

[tacit pendant]

Fang to 17m omg

[frail nebula]

fang to 50b soon

[hard axle]

fan to 1 morbillion dollars

[analog crow]

So what's the logic of reducing the drop amount rather than the drop rate of seeds from muspah?

[frail nebula]

buy my fang now for the low low bargain price of only 200m

[frail nebula]

?

[worn token]

just revert slash accuracy stonks booming

[frail nebula]

Makes it a bit more consistent

[tender harness]

because muspah even after the first tuning pass
was still shitting out seeds and supplies
its just consistency

[idle summit]

yeah, only started ironman cuz i felt like skilling didn't matter to me past quest reqs on main

[rain fulcrum]

Arguably far easier for low end too

[hard axle]

DUDE

[frail nebula]

Lower quantities but better rates is the way to go for supplies IMO

[hard axle]

Did you guys see the hueycoatl changes

[frail nebula]

Makes it far more consistent to be able to maintain supplies at a boss

Which is just more fun

[bleak crag]

Maybe I'm wrong, but playing with the rate is like playing with weighting? So changing the rate would slightly change rates on other drops too no?

[frail nebula]

That could also have an impact, but still

[small anvil]

Hmm I haven't checked what direction Huey wand went

[frail nebula]

I don't think supply drops should be super volatile

[small anvil]

Buffed but also dropped more frequently

Proposal

[frail nebula]

Supply drops should be fairly consistent

[bleak crag]

Yeah I put off huey, so I'm looking forward to the boosted wand rate and stats

[rain fulcrum]

Dramatic buff plus 3x rate

[rain fulcrum]

I think it should be one or the other

[frail nebula]

Huey wand price is very confused atm

[rain fulcrum]

Not both..

[small anvil]

Yeah

[frail nebula]

It's massively buffed but also 3x more common

[tacit pendant]

Huey is very confused atm

[frail nebula]

And the fight is quicker

[tacit wharf]

so many useful seeds from huey, is great

[worn token]

where would people even use wand especially with delve boss staff coming soon

[small anvil]

Anyone calc if it ends up good anywhere?

[frail nebula]

barraging

that's gonna be the main use

it's a 10% magic boost weapon that's cheap

And will autocast ancients

[analog crow]

If you just do your farming contracts you'll never be short on seeds anyway

[formal sentinel]

Yeah. I meant to buy 2 wands yesterday but put it off to today. I coulda made like a couple mil selling today, but wouldn't have wanted to hold cause IDK where it's gonna end up

[worn token]

hmm maybe i just see ancient sceptre being better

[slender vapor]

Not true for torstols

[frail nebula]

How?

Sceptre is 5% damage

[slender vapor]

Contracts dont really give those much

[frail nebula]

Wand is 10%

[tacit pendant]

Dragon afk alts

[tender harness]

So when are we getting rid of crush on scythe

[frail nebula]

The DHW will be significantly better for barraging than a sceptre

[worn token]

even with quartz added? maybe i didn’t look into it enough

[restive sapphire]

I like how they said
"Reminding u that flat armour exists we not gonna do anything about it yet though"

Imo they should think about min hits while they at it

[restive sapphire]

When pnm avgs at sub 3 minutes

[frail nebula]

If you're barraging, you don't really care about accuracy

[formal sentinel]

I might pick one up just in case though, I don't think they'll drop more than about where they're at, and it may be useful at CoX later

[frail nebula]

Also the wand probably has higher accuracy anyway

[tender harness]

it just makes zero sense to push more crush content
but a slash weapon is BIS at crush

[frail nebula]

Wand will 100% be the way to go for barraging prior to something like a nightmare staff

No real question about it

[tacit pendant]

Flat armor has some changes tbf

[worn token]

or kodai is bis still right?

[frail nebula]

Oh yeah it is

[tacit pendant]

Nex mages getting obliterated by blowpipe is a tbow nerf

[trail beacon]

As someone who has 2k+ TOA KC, I think the boss mechanic changes are trolling. Puzzle rooms sound fine and making the fang more rare is probably a solid change, but all of the Akkha changes are terrible.

[tender harness]

real just make every boss fight butterfly

[restive sapphire]

Im disappointed that when they 1st floated min hits they tied it to a unique item rather than making it a stat

[tender harness]

to make boosting for kits easier

[frail nebula]

I mean it is kinda weird that akkha significantly more goin on than other bosses

[formal sentinel]

Yeah we actually really needed a 10% magic damage weapon that can cast Ancients. 80K 5% Sceptre -> 15% 60m (now 48m) Nightmare Staff was a weird jump IMO

[frail nebula]

But I also like Akkha

[small anvil]

Baba being made easier I dunno

[tacit pendant]

Akkha and baba making you do the fight. Butterfly is still useful just not 100% of the fight

[restive sapphire]

With the mage cape at varlamore blog

[worn token]

i don’t disagree but i think toa is the worst raid to grind imo and the sweat methods make it unbearable

[small anvil]

It's a simple fight already

People did 5:1

Baba being turned into tank and spank I don't really like

[formal sentinel]

They made it easier to not red-x, and the same to red-x Baba, right?

[frail nebula]

Yeah it's a nice gap to fill

[hard axle]

baba is just afk now

[small anvil]

Yeah

[obsidian venture]

Only skill expression at baba was 5:1

[hard axle]

like, that's stupid as fk

[small anvil]

Afk and oh no I did too much DPS and died to boulders

[restive sapphire]

Imo what they coulda done with baba was step back like verzik

I made that suggestion before muspah even came out

[tacit pendant]

He would need to stand still

[frail nebula]

How about we give Baba a tumekan's shadow

[hard axle]

how about we turn baba into scurrius

cuz that's basically the same now

[tacit pendant]

How bout he dual wields shadow + fang

[hard axle]

and have a range/mage monkey on its back

[formal sentinel]

Oh, did they do boulder changes btw? I hadn't looked.
I didn't play before BP nerf, but I hear you didn't need to be potted to 1 hit the boulders back then.
That would be cool to have again

[obsidian venture]

What

[worn token]

new invo for shadow baba inc

[small anvil]

You don't need to be potted to one shot boulders

[trail beacon]

Idk, I guess everyone has their preferences. I don't really run 540s or anything and I learnt butterfly/redx fairly late. I'll be honest, bf and redx isn't hard to learn at all. I've taught 50+ people the raid and probably 20+ people how to fly/redx

[tacit pendant]

Being able to fight baba as intended is good. I can atleast understand not wanting akkha changes

[obsidian venture]

Bp nerf was way before toa

[small anvil]

Ddarts and rigour

BP nerf was accuracy mostly too right

[worn token]

it’s not that it’s hard to learn it’s just not fun and against game design imo

[obsidian venture]

Akkha change is nice for the low end

Bad for high end

[formal sentinel]

Ah, I thought it was both, and heard from a couple places that that was a change, but never went and looked deeper into it

my b

[obsidian venture]

Chilling

[small anvil]

Lowering the scaling for loot and the defenses/HP would have been better than these changes I feel

[obsidian venture]

They gotta tweak zebak

[frail nebula]

Why zebak?

[obsidian venture]

In full max and its variance is nasty

[worn token]

they did with waves but idk what else they could do

[obsidian venture]

Can be a 3:30 room with full def reduction, or a 5:10

That is just bad

[trail beacon]

I guess that's just preference, I find bf and redx satisfying to get right

[frail nebula]

Could maybe give it an effect like Tekton where you have a guaranteed minion amount of def drained

[obsidian venture]

6t or 5:1?

[small anvil]

Remove def reduction cap!

Let horn shine in toa

[tacit pendant]

I could be down for letting def reduction go lower on zebak specifically

[obsidian venture]

It’s not really the def cap, but that would be nice

[frail nebula]

mhm nah

[obsidian venture]

It’s moreso the accuracy

[frail nebula]

also that'd only increase variance

[small anvil]

If you let horn hammer in

[worn token]

to each their own and I agree some methods feel rewarding like the butterfly method. i still like doing altar door at bandos but it’s just sweaty ya feel

[trail beacon]

6t is easer and still gets the job done

[small anvil]

You could shred with tbow

[obsidian venture]

Yeah easier for sure

[obsidian venture]

In high invos you’re shadowing

[tacit pendant]

Butterfly is more engaging and rewarding than red x by a long shot

[obsidian venture]

In teams, in high invos tbow ye

[small anvil]

If you could hammer tho

Hammer and red keris

[obsidian venture]

But far too variant time wise

[small anvil]

Would let you shred

[frail nebula]

altar door isn't very sweaty tbh

[small anvil]

With horn

[obsidian venture]

IMO 5:1 would be more engaging than that

[trail beacon]

Tbow with max is always better than shadow with max on higher invos, i checked dps calc a while back. It's very marginal tho

[small anvil]

It would not have much variance no

[frail nebula]

I gotta ask, why are you named that

[obsidian venture]

Tbow is better yes. But if you’re sending 540 solos, you are binning range switches

[tacit pendant]

Zebak also getting hit even harder by shadow by a lot soon 🙂

[worn token]

yeah i just meant rewarding n more engaging then running around the room 6:0

[frail bough]

Higher HP for longer fights 👍
Higher def for longer fights cause you hit zeros 👎

[obsidian venture]

If you’re sending duo 540s, you can bring all gear yeah

So the tbow again

Otherwise shadow in solos

[frail nebula]

I kinda get some cases like GWD where they literally couldn't increase HP above 255

But I'd really like to see HP scaling more in higher invo over crazy high def

[obsidian venture]

So is bow

[trail beacon]

yeah in 500+ i use shadow on zeb

[vivid ruin]

And subtract def reduce cap

[tacit pendant]

Les than the shadow buff but yeah

[obsidian venture]

In duo 500+ I bow

[fossil epoch]

Can i get an update, what are we mad about today?

[frail nebula]

nah, reducing def to 0 in every fight is not an interesting mechanic

[tacit pendant]

3 range str =/= 3% mage dmg on shadow in toa

[formal sentinel]

Could make it so the max def reduction is "to the same remaining def level", regardless of invo level, instead of "amount it can be reduced by"

[obsidian venture]

Yeah still uncapped unfortunately

[tacit pendant]

Im not going back to toa until summer tbh

[obsidian venture]

Few irons mad about seed nerfs

[gaunt kestrel]

summer sweep up looks good

sad they gutted akkha skill floor

[obsidian venture]

Not fully

[frail nebula]

Looks good for the most part, but the seed nerfs are bad :/

[gaunt kestrel]

but for average person interacting w the content its good qol

[obsidian venture]

They said they’re willing to change if it’s bad at at high end

[tacit pendant]

Also irons. Trident dps moment

[obsidian venture]

Nothing worse than seeing folks 4t bfly

[frail nebula]

I did toa with a warped sceptre and that was not a great fucking time at akkha

[tacit pendant]

Being able to melee/range the full fight is crazy

Irons will love it

[worn token]

i agree that completely changes it

[fossil epoch]

Yeh i can see them being mad about those, but muspah and toa ruined seeds

[restive sapphire]

We bout to see 3t bfly

[vernal valve]

oh hey jraze got first horn contract completion

[gaunt kestrel]

yea ideally i would like to let the toa minmaxers continue their scripted encounter

[obsidian venture]

Indeed

[tacit pendant]

You can actually just drop mage gear completly as a bowfa billy correct?

[obsidian venture]

That makes more sense

[gaunt kestrel]

but people not as competant wouldnt be so punished by not knowing

[minor whale]

While ToA isn't suddenly gonna be great because of how bad any sort of high end mechanics are, this is a good step to making it less ass

[worn token]

still need for warden

[vernal valve]

wardens p2 would take an eternity

[obsidian venture]

4t bfly is shit dps compared to the other two styles. So you’re prolonging the room for 0

[tacit pendant]

Oh yeah my b

Duh

[frail nebula]

akkha's prayer penetration is getting lowered anyway

[obsidian venture]

The 3t staff will be much better dps. But with these changes, probably not needed

[vivid ruin]

I sort of wish theyd let us test drive this stuff though

[frail nebula]

So you might as well just power through that phase

[gaunt kestrel]

honestly the biggest way to deal with this is just stat bloat at the high level

[minor whale]

Yeah I really wish they'd just nuke defense at high invos

That's the biggest thing that makes me just not have fun

[gaunt kestrel]

imo stuff like baba - the choice to not red-x vs. 6:0 vs 5:1 are meaningfully different ways to engage w the boss

obviously not red-xing is unrealistic before

[frail nebula]

absurdly high def enemies just aren't fun

period

[worn token]

or remove the -20 cap its awful

[minor whale]

Even in max gear it's just so much of a slog

[frail nebula]

looking at you too kree

[gaunt kestrel]

but they've also made 6:0 basically meaningless

[restive sapphire]

I was def surprised with removing all prayer pen

From bana

Baba

[tacit pendant]

I kinda just hope they make 500s less relevant in general. They are exhausting. Its fine for kit and maybe a 10% buff to drops (in effective ttc hours) rates over 400

[slender vapor]

Banana

[worn token]

bananba

[frail nebula]

Yeah I'm surprised they're removing it completely

[gaunt kestrel]

honestly the raid at 400 is 💤

[tender harness]

oh no the snowflake accounts

[slender vapor]

Banababa

[gaunt kestrel]

they're completeable just afking all the bosses

[frail nebula]

Babanana

[slender vapor]

51 is lampable

[gaunt kestrel]

cause you can sip the yellow potion and then the white potion

[tacit pendant]

Maybe baba akkha changes make it more engaging

[slender vapor]

They'll be fine

[tacit pendant]

Yeah white pots are op

[restive sapphire]

To compensate they coulda made shadow slam and sarcophagus disable prayer

[obsidian venture]

Wouldn’t make sense. They should promote pushing invos for better purp chance

[gaunt kestrel]

but now prot melee mitigates all damage

so you're punished even less for not knowing red-x methods

[tender harness]

Baba chip be like
pray and heres a 30

[tacit pendant]

In a perfect world they make better invos, and stop def hp bloat

[obsidian venture]

But they can do with speeding up the raid slightly

[tacit pendant]

All path invos deleted imo

[gaunt kestrel]

i think there's a good tradeoff for getting your face punched in (atm its overtuned) but taking no chip and doing less damage (16% slower baba)

[tacit pendant]

Make the level 2/3/4/5 mechanics themselves invos

[frail nebula]

I think there's something to be said for them not wanting the game to be too dependent on a method that is, objectively speaking, a bug

[gaunt kestrel]

and then 5:1

[rain fulcrum]

what they need to do is make 500s not a slog

[obsidian venture]

500 with wtp only is s30 tbh

[rain fulcrum]

but i dont feel like they are going to change anytyhing here with the update

other than baba is now afk

[frail nebula]

man the overuse of the word afk is kinda crazy

[tender harness]

respectfully, unless you are doing s25 600 wtp I dont think you know what you're talking about

[obsidian venture]

Rather type afk then low effort 100% of the time

[gaunt kestrel]

yea i just dont see this reasoning because red-x methods have existed for years

and none of them but baba have been addressed

ig nex on launch

[rain fulcrum]

i think we should remove verzik melee attacks so that u do not have to engage with the boss.

[frail nebula]

tbf they have accidentally fixed red x-ing a few times

[rain fulcrum]

verzik p3 is also being red x'd

[tacit pendant]

Mobile content, is my descriptor for between afk and engaging

[tender harness]

remove p1 verzik. remove the staff from verzik
just leave everything up to chance

[frail nebula]

I think low intensity is a good term

[rain fulcrum]

oh and remove verzik chip damage too

[slender vapor]

Low Intensity gaming, mostly Afk
Ligma for short

[frail bough]

One free 99 of choice when you complete tutorial island - similar to how you have to choose a pokemon.

[frail nebula]

you win fluffy

[slender vapor]

We do some ligma gaming

[rain fulcrum]

ill keep saying afk

cuz its funny when ppl complain about it

[frail nebula]

low intensity gaming gaming

[tacit pendant]

This is the agility rework we need

[frail bough]

It was the most obvious solution all along

[frail nebula]

I pick sailing

lemme get that head start

[tender harness]

[gaunt kestrel]

the other changes are pretty good though

[fossil epoch]

IMO CA time should start at the first pickup of a mushroom

[rain fulcrum]

the prep fight is more of a fight than the boss itself

[tacit pendant]

6 pot cap is a fair compromise

[fossil epoch]

not when you enter the room

[gaunt kestrel]

stuff like pnm -1 phase, nex predictability

good stuff

[tacit pendant]

Gm time free with oathplate as is

[tender harness]

CA timer should start when you get to the general area duke is at before you enter his room

[rain fulcrum]

i thought the idea of jumping over duke on reddit is a reasonable compromise

so youre making 1 big loop instead

[gaunt kestrel]

i dont want them to gut toa skill floor and respect people that have put in the effort to be good, but i also thinking making the raid more accessible is good

[tender harness]

real.
jump over duke if you fail you fall and are 1 shot and your gear is destroyed

[tacit pendant]

If they want prep to still be in gm time. Make it average of 3 kills time

[rain fulcrum]

i think if you want to remove babas damage

you have to replace the mechanic with something

[frail nebula]

I want a farming item that gives you a chance to get a seed back when harvesting a plant

[worn token]

ironmen hate this one trick

[rain fulcrum]

because baba has zero threat without the autos

[frail nebula]

Like how farming literally works irl

[worn token]

farming buffs farming buffs!

[frail bough]

Honestly imagine if duke prep was more like yama judge minigame

[frail nebula]

yama judge phase is honestly really fun

[gaunt kestrel]

yea i agree

[frail nebula]

fucking love it

[frail bough]

yeah, its a great way to break up the fight - give you a chanc eto heal

but still feels engaging

[frail nebula]

it's as fast paced as you want it to be too

which is nice

[worn token]

honestly remove all seeds from drop tables but make them reusable only way to get one is from raking weed like in cox

[slender vapor]

Ngl, i'm really debating on if i wanna go back to toa now for my lb, or wait till the changes and purple nerf

[frail nebula]

you can 1t all the rocks, do step under, etc.

[frail bough]

Getting frozen on the spot for a misclick getting whacked an 80 or frozen because a thing hit you feels fucking awful

[frail nebula]

and do it really quickly

or chill for a bit and eat up

[slender vapor]

Those changes look like they make the entire raid less irritating

[frail nebula]

given that they might nuke the lb drop rate

I'd go for it now lol

[gaunt kestrel]

yea they just made toa even more accessible

[zenith spoke]

summer sweep-up one of the best if not the best updates Jagex has ever proposed

[gaunt kestrel]

iunno it leaves to be seen how they decide to adjust purples

[zenith spoke]

not sure where to put this feedback but there u go

[frail nebula]

it's not as if they want it to be more common though

that drop rate only has one direction it can go in

[obsidian venture]

I’m due pet there…

[slender vapor]

But, the raid itself would get significantly easier

And much easier to chain grind

[worn token]

but if they change the lb/fang the other purps would be more common maybe?

[obsidian venture]

Prob not?

[gaunt kestrel]

i'd think we'd see them gut the raids ngl

[obsidian venture]

Dunno how they’d address the rates

[frail nebula]

Depends on whether they adjust overall purple rates

[gaunt kestrel]

a 400 atm is like 9% chance

[frail nebula]

Like early on with cox

[gaunt kestrel]

and you dont need to red x or bf

[frail nebula]

When purples were made significantly more common but everything except prayers got weighted lower

So their rates weren't changed

But prayers were more common

[obsidian venture]

They could halve team rates ngl

[gaunt kestrel]

cox could do with a purple adjustment

[frail nebula]

punshing group play is very fun

[slender vapor]

8 man 400s are definitely the biggest problem

50% rate is fucked

I don't care how you try to defend it

[frail bough]

change it to 4 man team max so people can compare it more easily to tob

[slender vapor]

50% rate is absurd and needs to go

[obsidian venture]

They can increase solo rates post 400 slightly, and reduce team rates so that 410 8 man isn’t meta

[frail nebula]

50% spread over 8 people isn't nearly as insane

[slender vapor]

It's still a coin flip purple

[obsidian venture]

450 8s would make more sense

[frail nebula]

I think you're getting too caught up in that number

Compare it to 8 people running solos

That's only equivalent to about a 6.25% drop rate

[obsidian venture]

It’s much slower in comparison

[worn token]

but in toa you can only get one purp cox u can get upto like 3 at max scale

[gaunt kestrel]

but a max scale cox

also takes like

[obsidian venture]

Not many run megas at all

[gaunt kestrel]

several hours l0l

and the people running megas are fewwwwwww and far between

[worn token]

true just saying it’s limited to one person anyways

[frail nebula]

the bigger issue with toa isn't a 50% rate in a group of 8

it's just the general rate at which purples scale up with invo

[gaunt kestrel]

its both

[frail nebula]

group rates just make that more apparent but they themselves aren't the issue IMO

[obsidian venture]

That’s all a problem yeah. But they should reduce team rates and push invos to compensate

450 would be a good barrier

[gaunt kestrel]

yea 450 reqs brain

cause can't sip your problems away deal

[pine dirge]

how good is dragon wand at olm? have new calcs been done with earth weakness?

[obsidian venture]

Not that I’ve seen yet

[frail nebula]

not just the earth weakness

the wand itself also got a massive buff

[rain fulcrum]

its probably getting like an 80% total damage buff against olm or something stupid

[frail nebula]

might actually be worthwhile

and frankly, good

[obsidian venture]

I see some known folks calcing

Should be shared soon probably

[frail nebula]

I'll be curious to see where it falls

[slender vapor]

It might be kinda cracked

[frail nebula]

I'd like to see it decisively ahead of something like a toxic trident

[slender vapor]

1/69 rate from huey now too

[tacit wharf]

honestly it should be

[olive pulsar]

I’m excited to not have to grind keys for CAs for Obor/Bryo

[rain fulcrum]

at 1/70 rate it really shouldnt

[worn token]

i kinda disagree because it requires more upkeep but would be good to see a more niche use

[tacit wharf]

monster specific weapons should be close to bis in for their monsters

[minor whale]

I think it being slightly above sang would be fine
Or identical dps to sang at Olm
Sang obviously better due to easier running and also heals, but on par dps would be cool

In other questions
Harm at Olm with earth surge?

[frail nebula]

If the dragon hunter wand isn't at least close to BiS when you have to use magic against a dragon boss

[minor whale]

That's a massive dps boost to it

[frail nebula]

Then what the fuck is the point

[rain fulcrum]

its an earlygame item

is the issue

[gaunt kestrel]

its a midgame item

[frail nebula]

it's not an early game item though

[rain fulcrum]

i thought they would add some sort of attachment from real content to make it good

[minor whale]

1/60 from super easy early game boss

[obsidian venture]

Tbf the new staff will replace it anyway

[gaunt kestrel]

^

[worn token]

100

[obsidian venture]

Also keep progression in mind

[tacit wharf]

trident is basically an early game item as well though

[worn token]

like u mentioned early could still be a great mid game bursting wep*

[frail nebula]

Wand's also gonna be super common as a barrage staff now too

yeah

[rain fulcrum]

well u said close to bis

trident aint bis

[minor whale]

Yeah dhw requirements are "go get maracas and then get wand" with new drop rate

[rain fulcrum]

being around or slightly better than a trident is fine

[worn token]

def shouldn’t come close to shadow

[hard axle]

u should see the things im cooking in petcord

with new wand

[frail nebula]

Related to see drops, I have to wonder

[rain fulcrum]

i dont really see why they needed to add ancinets to the wand

[tacit wharf]

guess close is a little vague but felt you'd understnad that it should be one of the better mage wepons to use for dragons

[frail nebula]

Where the fuck do seeds come from in Gielinor

[rain fulcrum]

it seem sout of place

[frail nebula]

Like lorewise

Plants don't have their own seeds for some reason

Or are we just awful farmers

[worn token]

i got 40 mill farm ain’t no way

[slender vapor]

Seeds come from monsters, therefore monsters are good farmers

[worn token]

atp they come out of muspah’s bloody booty

[frail nebula]

I'd like to propose a minigame where a nechryael teaches us to farm

[gaunt kestrel]

yea idk

[rain fulcrum]

with the wand buff the wand is super out of place when u compare it to the other two weapons too

much higher drop rate, easier content

[gaunt kestrel]

like we have entry barrage stick already in the form of sceptre

[rain fulcrum]

which is why they made it suck in the first place

should have just not added the item at all tbh

[oblique mesa]

Its always been out of place, just now its swung to the other side

[slender vapor]

We need a dragon hunter staff from a new boss all together

[rain fulcrum]

i feel like that was the original plan

and they fucked it up by listening to reddit and adding the wand

b/c people demanded it

[frail nebula]

Hey at least we're getting the 3t staff back

from the delve boss this time

and it's actually good

[gaunt kestrel]

the phosani change is basically +1.5kph

so like 2hr reduction to go on rate

which is not the worst but i think could be a little better

yea its nb, its kinda like they made boss 1/95ish on old fight length

[formal sentinel]

So without accounting for the accuracy buff, DHW should beat Trident at Olm mage hand now, after considering thralls.
But still probably not worth the loss of thralls for the rest of the raid

[frail bough]

Would still just make PNM 3 phases total, 4 phases post change(two of which are dupes) still feels dumb to me.

[gaunt kestrel]

i think 3 is not bad personally

[rain fulcrum]

Am I the only one who likes longer bosses

[gaunt kestrel]

especially 1 phase being ~1:30

[frail bough]

It's not the duration for me, its the fact that its just repeated

it could still be the same duration, idc

[rain fulcrum]

It makes feeling each kill more satisfying

[gaunt kestrel]

well it's definitely better than before

[rain fulcrum]

Even if it's the same thing

[gaunt kestrel]

considering there are 2 choices for specials

[rain fulcrum]

Also the phases aren't the same

Only 1 is a dup post change

[gaunt kestrel]

it'll basically be yama p1/p2

[rain fulcrum]

The first two will always be different

[gaunt kestrel]

and then a p3 where you get your prayer turned off

and a random selection of specs

[rain fulcrum]

Oh yeah I guess cuz of the prayer thing

All phases r distinct now

I think that's pretty good

I think they should also make P3 use all specials too

Because before you got each special in 2 phases

Now it's imbalanced

[wooden harbor]

y'know whats a bit strange? you can no longer go for a swim at zebak
since you no longer get pushed by waves

[gaunt kestrel]

cause pnm is always like husks/para, prayer/mushroom?, zoom/prayer swap?

idk which of the specs are paired together forgive me

[slender vapor]

It's wild that you can just tank waves now

Trying to wave skip is basically just free now, the worst that happens is -30 hp

[rain fulcrum]

It's weird that of all the things to address

They chose to make waves do nothing

[wooden harbor]

guessing because they saw a bunch of hcims dying to getting comboed by a wave into an acid pool 👀

[slender vapor]

That was a bonus

[wooden harbor]

still a weird fix

[rain fulcrum]

I mean I don't really care just just waves are not even top 10 on my ToA gripws

[wooden harbor]

they really shouldve done something more to zebak def/hp issue

[rain fulcrum]

Is zebak defense a problem

[gaunt kestrel]

i think over the board they shouldve just addressed stat bloat

[wooden harbor]

yeah huge variance in zebak room times in 540

maybe should increase the def cap at zebak

[slender vapor]

If they addressed stats bloat, the rest of the stuff would've been fine

[rain fulcrum]

Aren't u usually maging him

So his defense don't matter

[wooden harbor]

theres a famous 8 way range setup thats much better than shadow

[rain fulcrum]

That would be his mage level

[gaunt kestrel]

yea i think addressing bloat would be most of the problem solved and the nfurther room qol would be nice

[wooden harbor]

especially in duos since you get max def reduction guaranteed with horn and dwh

[slender vapor]

Like 100% stat bloat

That's what needs to be fixed

All these other tweaks aside

[rain fulcrum]

I mean defense scaling should just cap out at like

300-350

[slender vapor]

Lower hp also means lower loot chance, so 2 birds 1 stone

[wooden harbor]

i think even letting players lower 40 defence levels instead of 20 would make the fight sooo much better

[rain fulcrum]

How about let us zero def him

[wooden harbor]

haha would love to see melting zebak

[gaunt kestrel]

i had this crazy dream about scything zebak back in the day

[rain fulcrum]

It would make so much sense for scythe to be bis at zebak just cuz meleeing him is harder

[gaunt kestrel]

thinking the fight would be turbo cracked because you'd ahve to not get chomped and then dodge waves and shit

[slender vapor]

No need to allow more defense lowering if they just lowered the eggregious bulk stats in the first place

[wooden harbor]

tbt when people were theorizing horn->scythe before we had more info on horn lol

[gaunt kestrel]

l0l

yea there were never nearly enough horns for that to work

[rain fulcrum]

Being able to zerodef is one of the best parts of cox and tob idk why they hate it so much

[wooden harbor]

if scythe worked with horn, it was being considered bis spec at zebak

[wooden harbor]

adren spec pot lightbearer kinda got you pretty far haha

[gaunt kestrel]

oh yea adren

that'd be pretty turbo

[wooden harbor]

i forgot numbers but it got zebak really low 👀

[rain fulcrum]

If there is 1 thing I think should be zero def able it's the obelisk

Doesn't matter for meta cuz shadow

But would make p1 less shit for higher invos and lower gear

[wooden harbor]

true p1 is so ass without shadow

like u miss def reduction? gg

[tacit pendant]

Dont let the amazing sweep up details distract you from horn being cheeks!

[vivid ruin]

Buff horn pls

Gegix

[gaunt kestrel]

what are your takes for the rest of the toa changes?

[tacit pendant]

This blog was jagexs pr get out of jail card

[slender vapor]

It arguably makes the raid too easy, but toa is filled with so many painpoints that i don't hate the raid being made easy

[gaunt kestrel]

ig im jsut asking fivenine becasue theyre informed about the raid at a high level haha

[slender vapor]

I'd prefer stat debloat and mechanics not moving

[gaunt kestrel]

yea im w you on this

[tacit pendant]

Warmups seems positive

[gaunt kestrel]

maybe a little tuning of like baba facetank

instead of full mitigation

[slender vapor]

I think there's a lot lost with akka, i think the issue is he just takes too fucking long without a shadow

[tacit pendant]

Tbf he will take way less without a shadow now

[slender vapor]

Yeah, bowfa 2/3

He'll be stupid fast now

But now you just mimic his overhead prayer

Wow, emergent gameplay

[tacit pendant]

I mean thats the same amount of brain cells as highlight boss red, switch melee

[slender vapor]