durable arrows seem neat if you can make them out of special materials like cold iron or adamantine
#pathfinder-specific
zenith stump
blunt arrows because bludgeoning damage can be handy
surprise skeleton!
also neat if you are actively not trying to murder somebody I suppose
zenith stump
anyways it prolly isn’t amazing (thrown weapons build barbarian is a lot less investment) have to spend three feats to qualify for sanguine angel & they don’t really help archery build but bowbarian sounds pretty fun
oh and you’d want an adaptive composite longbow
sand drum
You'd certainly be the terror of your enemies.
zenith stump
this may or may not be worse
titan mauler barbarian, oversized bow & these
https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Irongrip Gauntlets
https://www.aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Giant-Blooded
zenith stump
bonus points if you invest in UMD to be able to use a wand of gravity bow, you bribe another PC to cast enlarge (w/ permanency if possible) and pick up a huge sized bow
half-orc for orc hornbow could be nifty
sand drum
Nothing says "screw you" like launching actual rafter beams at an enemy.
winter epoch
Idea for a villain, which is inspired by Rise of the Runelord and Fallout 1
Using a Rune Giant as a character simliar to Frank Horrigan, the brutal enforcer
edgy field
Hello, I have a 1e question.
I am building a Serendipity Shaman, because heehee, funny, and I was wondering if the Wandering Spirit's spell list is also removed by the Luck Magic ability.
I may have read things wrong, I just wanna make sure.
winter epoch
I think you read that right
instead of getting the spelllist of the spirit you get the spells of the luck domain for that
edgy field
See, I wasn't sure if Luck Magic replaced both the normal Spirit and Wandering Spirit's spell lists, thought I'd ask. 'preciate the feedback.
winter epoch
wait there is a seperate spellslist for those two?
wait, what is the Wandering Spirit's spell lists? I thought you talked about the regular spirit spelllists. Now that I am specifically looking for that one, I can't find it
edgy field
Wandering Spirits grant their bonus spells when you take them, if I read the ability correctly.
edgy field
...Now I'm just confused.
winter epoch
okay wait I think I figured it out
Wandering spirits is a class feature, which had nothing to do with it
sorry, that was confusion on my part
I apologize
edgy field
Ah, fair enough.
winter epoch
Okay now that this is cleared up, no Wandering Spirit should not be effected
Spirit and Wandering spirit are seperate class features
the archetype only specifies Spirit
edgy field
Bitchin', this character's gonna be so goddamn dumb.
winter epoch
Could you elaborate?
mint eagle
pathfinder rules. also magus rules
played a session 0 tutorial session with my dm and it was a lot of fun. magus is wild as fuck
rolled fuckin 30 damage for a shocking grasp spellstrike
the persistent damage stayed active until the big tutorial boss died and then the ignition spellstrike that killed him was also pretty fuckin huge damage
now i wonder what the paladin of pf2e is like, cause magus is like... a super paladin compared to 5e
i do know that pathfinder does just kind of have bigger numbers tho
mint eagle
@molten furnace huh so champions dont really do the whole big fuckin number radiant damage nuke like paladins do in 5e, huh. they're more just a martial class with like, support?
winter epoch
They are the armor specialists which focus on punishing enemies with their reaction
there is later some aligmnent damage, but no Smites like 5e
mint eagle
they seem interesting, definitely different than i expected
molten furnace
I will cede authority on the matter to @winter epoch because he is a better advocate for Pathfinder than me.
I could answer the questions, but Miraklu will do better to reference stuff.
winter epoch
Your input is still appriciated
But I have been playing a Redeemer Champion, so I know the class
mint eagle
fun that antipaladin exists
molten furnace
BUT, in my experience, Champions are more tame in PF2e than in D&D, and have more utility beyond DPS. Which is typical of PF2e classes: Usually they can do more than just combat stuff, or do more than just damage in combat.
mint eagle
feels unlikely to end up playing one but it's fun that it exists
molten furnace
I personally am partial to Liberator Champions
winter epoch
its the class you can put in the frontline and know they survive a few rounds
Yeah Anti paladin was originally an alternative class to paladin in pfe1, they just folded it in to one
molten furnace
VIVA LA REVOLUCION!
Pathfinder is a more natural progression from 3xe D&D.
I personally think that Pathfinder is more D&D than D&D is nowadays...but, that is my unpopular opinion.
mint eagle
if someone comes to me with an evil pf2e game i definitely think i'd need to pick antipaladin just for the challenge of making a guy who's really commited to being a psycho
sounds like fun rp potential
winter epoch
You are free to do so
I have specialize into a mounted greatsword Champion who does good damage, great mobility, and of course being a Champion, he tanks
Divine will and juggernaut both make you later level a literal iron wall against 2/3 or saves
And there are also the additional oath feats
For example my character hates undead, so I took the Shining Oath feat, to add to my characters personal oath,
mint eagle
ah there they are, (found divine will/juggernaut.) so champions are specialized for tanking above like, fighters and such
winter epoch
Yes,
best compaeison, Fighters become legendary with weapons, masters in armor
Champuons become masters in weapons, legendary with armor
They are not huge away from each other and you can easily play a tank fighter and. dpr Champion, but there are those edges
mint eagle
ooh, fighters start with expert. interesting
alright so, since i'm playing one maybe i should start asking about magus stuff
mint eagle
so far i've only played one session, it was like a tutorial session to help me and the other new player learn the game. i *really* liked how things went
magus feels real good
is there any magus stuff i should be looking out for in particular as i level up?
winter epoch
Well first, what Hybrid Study did you pick and what lvl were you?
mint eagle
we were level 1, i'm going inexorable iron
he had us set our sheets up to level 3 cause he wants to move past the first couple levels sorta quick
winter epoch
Ahh, the barbarian esque Magus
You are good at damaging and the temp hp from arcane cascade is a neat buffer
So the most important thing is spell choice later on
unless you take a specific feat, you can only use spells with attack rolls in your spellstrike
if you want saves spells too, that would need the expansive spellstrike feat
thats the first important thing to consider
mint eagle
yeah we were planning on getting that for me
winter epoch
whats the characters intelligence?
winter epoch
so you invested heavily in there
I assume also 12 Con
mint eagle
ive only got 12 con but i'm a hold scarred orc and was planning on taking toughness at 3
winter epoch
perfectly good choice
So yeah, as you will probably see, combats can gwt fast
Magus are decent fighting regularly, In low stakes fights focus on cantrips because Spellslots are precious, and as you have described you know how much burst damage magus can bring
You are in a similiar roll as a Barbarian essential, with more versatility
Instead of continues rage damage though, you have spells
meaning you can just miss, but if you hit huge
mint eagle
is arcane cascade just always available as long as i meet the prereq?
winter epoch
Yes, it is a stance
a Stanxe is Essential a fighting style your character gets into, if you spend the action to get into it
mint eagle
ok cool. does the spell need to be cast the same turn i go into stance?
winter epoch
No, as the wording says, atleast last I read, your previous action has to be a spell iirc
no specification on turn
mint eagle
ok cool
concentration works differently in pf2e right? it seemed like there was a feat for maintaining concentration, is it required or does it just help with maintaining it?
winter epoch
Concentration works very diffrent
mint eagle
my dm said you can concentrate on multiple things so i know that's different
winter epoch
concentration simply means your character needs to be of clear mind
and if during the casting they take damage, it can be interrupted
but only with a crit
but that risk is only during the casting itself, so you only really have to worry about AoO for interruption
or held actions
The closest to 5e concentration would be spells which need to be sustained, but those simply require you to use an action on your turn to keep the spell going
makes sense so far?
mint eagle
yeah
oh. enlarge isn't concentration. ok
so if i did have two like things with concentration tagged, my dm said i'd need to use an action to maintain them both?
winter epoch
also no manipulate trait
winter epoch
so if i did have two like things with concentration tagged, my dm said i'd need ...
no, you don't
only if the spell requires you to sustain it
concentrate is more the isdue of, raging as a barbarian you can't cast concentrate spells
mint eagle
ok, it didnt seem like a house rule so maybe he's just rusty
mint eagle
does the provoking stuff count with spellstrikes too
winter epoch
ok, it didnt seem like a house rule so maybe he's just rusty
Probanly assumptions from a diffrent system
winter epoch
does the provoking stuff count with spellstrikes too
nope
Spellstrike has no manipulate tag
and you effectivly cast the spell with it, not actually hsnce no provoking
mint eagle
so even if the spell has manipulate, only the like, actual effects of the spell matter
for spellstrike
winter epoch
yes, else magus would be very stupid to play, except Starlit span magus
mint eagle
huh electric arc has no manipulate. so that's just safe to pop off. ignition does though
winter epoch
wait it doesn't?
mint eagle
so depending on the enemy it isn't safe to go for the melee range ignition?
winter epoch
huh, did not notice but yes
Yes
also not every enemies have AoO
that is also something to note
mint eagle
yeah. i learned about that
but just like, be wary if im trying to cast certain spells outside of my special magic man smite :P
winter epoch
Yep, absolutely fair
mint eagle
if im not sure i can go for a more simple spell or i can gamble and go for a spell i really want to cast
the other day i went for like, a swing and a cast of electric arc because i wanted to get two good attacks in on that turn even tho i was out of spellstrike
winter epoch
That is very smart, since save spells don't increase Map
mint eagle
oh wait no i wasnt out of spellstrike, it was a fire bird and i didnt have good options for spellstrike outside my shocking grasp
winter epoch
my point remains
mint eagle
but yeah. cool to get a second confirmation save spells dont do map
that's how my dm ruled it
winter epoch
How would that even work?
mint eagle
so this is just kind of a little bit of extra splash damage?
winter epoch
Multiple attack pelatly, makes you attack rolls less accurate
winter epoch
so this is just kind of a little bit of extra splash damage?
yup
Your gm may need to reread the rules if they get MAP and Spells wrong
mint eagle
my original idea for this character was that i wanted to be a martial witch, what i ended up learning was that the best way to go about that was to start as a magus and add witch. we're thinking i'll probably go full magus for campaign 1 and then if we're all still on board for a 2nd campaign we'll respec my guy into a magus/witch multiclass
cause the spellcaster multiclass stuff doesnt seem to really activate until you've got some levels under you
mint eagle
my dm doesnt want me to feel underpowered in our first campaign so we're gonna hold off on the witch stuff
so yeah, mostly thinking for the future what magus feats i'll need to keep. definitely need expansive obviously
devastating seems optional thankfully, not gonna make or break anything
winter epoch
the thing with Magus, you are already very specialized
mint eagle
honestly i didnt even know what witches did originally i just kind of love the concept of witches so i was like "damn i wanna be a witch" despite my deep primordial desire to be a gish
winter epoch
Witches are similiar to warlock, but you are actually learning secrets and spells, hence you use intelligence to cast
You made a deal with a patron and now via the familiar they send you, you get spells through that familiar
while at the same time, your familiar is probably a spy for said patron
winter epoch
I mean they are an Agent of your patron to give you their magic
mint eagle
my guy is an orc baby raised by a "baba yaga esque witch." after learning baba yaga is a patron, we went with a witch whose patron is baba yaga. his surrogate mom tried teaching him witch stuff growing up but he just kind of took to magic differently, ended up developing into a magus
now he's off trying to figure out who he is and such. work towards accepting that he's different than his role model and that's okay, and then surprise, he gets approached by a patron
winter epoch
Ohhh, there is something interesting
so your character is from Irresen
if you play on golarion that is
mint eagle
i said he was in a swampy place
it's not necessarily something i couldn't take back but i'm used to the baba yaga living in a swamp
so his witch mom ended up being a swamp lady
i was thinking maybe he finds a different patron, like the fate one maybe
winter epoch
Are you guys playing on Golarion?
because there is a bit of lore I have to drop
which might interest you
mint eagle
i think so?
winter epoch
Ask because Baba Yaga from Earth, is real on Golarion
mint eagle
yeah i know
that's why my witch mom couldn't be like, the real baba. would there be a witch under baba yaga in a more distant place?
like not necessarily in baba central
having spies far away could be helpful, right?
winter epoch
ahh, so you know how she conqueted a country in 28 days and then left her "Daughters" in charge, only to take away the ruling class each century?
There are many Daughters of Baba Yaga
they are the ruling class of Irresen
mint eagle
i figure his mom is just a regular witch with the "baba yaga" patron
winter epoch
thats always an option, just that is a very fun bit of lore
hence I wanted to bring it up
mint eagle
yeah it's super cool
winter epoch
Because there are some sightings of Baba yaga elsewhere on Golarion
give me a moment
There is a very fun short story you might like
mint eagle
there's a bit of flavor text with the fate patron that says like, maybe you've met them many times over the course of your life or whatever that was interesting, so maybe there could be a fun thing with like, the fate patron calling dibs on my orc kid and that's why he struggled with witch stuff growing up
winter epoch
Fair
mint eagle
so like the fate patron like, set a bunch of things in action to like, get this orc baby in the hands of a witch, have him develop these magus skills and then eventually approach him outwardly and grant him the powers he's been after
winter epoch
Coukd happen if you like ypur characters life be messed with
because why would your character trust them, if they learn of that?
having been a puppet for years
mint eagle
it'd depend on the reasons behind it i spose
winter epoch
but yeah, found the fun story of how a random encounter with a very old women and a kind stranger goes
mint eagle
he does cherish the time he spent with his mom so i think he might be thankful
winter epoch
👍
mint eagle
yeah i'll check it out
despite his wholesome backstory with the nice witch mom i did want her to be a bit of a shady character so she isn't just a totally altruistic benevolent figure
so the way he ended up in her hands was the result of a classic witchy deal but then one way or another she just kind of ended up being a kind mother figure and giving him a good childhood lol
i like having rp characters who just dont have big traumatic backstories, just like, happy well adjusted people lmao
winter epoch
Here is the fun thing with Baba yaga:
she is evil, but fair, she will make you ruin your own life, but respect you if you respect her
that tendency does color off on her witches
mint eagle
yeah. dimension 20 had a season that was set in a fairy tale world and the baba yaga was a big part of it and one of the things that was said about her is like, if you ask for a deal from her you need to be honest, if you're speaking half truths or something bad shit will go down. so one of Ratko's quirks is that he's big on telling the truth and also has a bit of a temper when it comes to being lied to
winter epoch
There is a similiar story, of a women and Giant hating barbarian, who wanted to threaten Baba yaga to turn him immortal
So she turned him into an immortal giant and has kept part of his soul
mint eagle
ooh, i am seeing some conflict with the lying aspect and the fate patron guy. it's not necessarily like, a deal breaker, but more something that could be fun to play with
like he learns his life has been set up in this particular way, and the fate dude has been behind the scenes and not up front about this stuff, and that is pretty misleading
winter epoch
Here is also thr thing, patrons are not specific
they are patron themes
so not exact science just a rough estimation
mint eagle
except for the mosquito lady and the baba yaga?
winter epoch
Yes, those two are specific
mint eagle
okay tho, that's good to know. ultimately the idea that i had come up with for the fate patron would still be a bit conflicting but basically it isn't a specific fate patron, im free to work with my dm to make a guy of our own
i had a silly idea that like... maybe my familiar is like, a dog with a human's face lol
he doesnt need to be able to speak or anything lol
just a weird kind of ugly creature
winter epoch
there is probably a familiar ability for that
mint eagle
oh btw this is random but i was looking at that final sacrifice spell, it works with those level 1 like animate undead/construct etc spells right?
cause it just kind of seems super hilarious and if i get some low level witch slots down the line i think i might use two slots for that combo
mint eagle
do summoned things have that trait?
winter epoch
I think so?
Need to look that up
mint eagle
there's a cantrip that can create a little guy but im thinking it doesnt count as a minion, but that the level 1 summon spells probably do
mint eagle
ok. there's a really horrible version of this combo where potentially you use summon animal lol
i feel like if i make a full on witch someday i might make like, a skeleton witch that creates exploding deer
winter epoch
Go ahead
mint eagle
it seems too brutal for Ratko but there's something very Adventure Time about a skeleton witch that summons little forest creatures to use as walking bombs
so you were saying magus are very specialized, was there more you wanted to let me know about that?
winter epoch
not really
Just if you do go dedication, go for specifics
The fun with dedications, you don't need to take every feat
you can just take the dedication and then just a feat you wanted fron that archetype
mint eagle
other than the witch flavor, i did like the idea of having more spell slots to work with
mint eagle
i know, im just a big nerd
mint eagle
i like when the mechanics support my flavor
mint eagle
yeah it's gonna be hard to go back. probably for the best tho
me and lost are workshopping this build that specializes in using this grippli hand adze
winter epoch
Wish you much fun with that
mint eagle
i was learning about weapon traits and i was like "there's no way they put forceful and agile on the same weapon, right?" and there's one humble 1d4 weapon with them both
winter epoch
another thing to love about pfe2, the weapons
so many diffrent options and they are diffrent
mint eagle
is this conflux spell like magic missile? it just works?
winter epoch
Magic missle is not a conflux spell
Force fangs is a conflux spell thoufh
Conflux Spells are specifically your hybrid study focus spell and focus spells from Magus feats which say they are conflux spells
dim spruce
i luv force fang, a poor mans magic missile
winter epoch
wait ohh, thats the way meant
yeah it works like magic missle just melee
or ranged with ranged weapon
dim spruce
i remember arguing that the focus spell system could be delved into more instead of the vancian system (for pure reputation reasons, discworld helped me understand the appeal more)
winter epoch
Yeah, I remember that
dim spruce
could help deal with the common issue of bookkeeping
mint eagle
@winter epoch wait, does spellstrike work with spells earned from dedications?
winter epoch
Yes, Spellstrike only specifies spells, not magus spells, just spells
mint eagle
so magus/magic user dedication is kind of the paladin/caster multiclass, you've got more ammo for your biggum boom stick
winter epoch
yes
mint eagle
well now im definitely interested in going down this path
id probably get more slots out of wizard but witch is just cool
winter epoch
not to my knowladge
look at the basic spellcasting feats from the dedications
Then you can advance that
its a cost for which you pay feats
mint eagle
is arcane the best for blasting? im not seeing a lot in occult
winter epoch
Occult indeed is not focused on blasting, even though it has options for that
Arcane and Primal may lead more to blasting
dim spruce
Yeah occult is known for debuff
winter epoch
and support, and Crowd Control, but I have fun blasting with it as a Psychic though
dim spruce
Me wanting to be a blaster mage but not wanting to be a psychic, kineticist or inventor
winter epoch
not sure why you include inventor as mage XD
zenith stump
not sure why you include inventor as mage XD
sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic 
winter epoch
XD
molten furnace
sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic <:thinkaboutit:...
Wrong system. That line belongs in Numenera, which is Cypher System...
sand drum
Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from a really big stick.
mint eagle
Arcane and Primal may lead more to blasting
Ill check out the primal blast spells later, i wasnt really feeling the rune witch theme
Occult has the coolest flavor, and like, id be cool using my witch slots mostly for utility/cc/debuff spells but i definitely would want a good amount of big boom spells for my magus spellstrike
mint eagle
fuck alright we've got lightning bolt ok
ok draw the lightning is pretty solid too, but any spell level 1 or 2 isnt really gonna be worth casting for damage
im sure there's some solid level 1/2 utility spells
zenith stump
magic missile
mint eagle
so i had a stupid/not particularly complex pf2e character that was just, "Champion but with a gun"
cause the idea of a gun paladin is really funny
mint eagle
lmao
winter epoch
Being dead and coming back is possible
and tgere is to my knowladge a ranged paladin build, though never put much attention on it
or rather a feat called ranged reprisal
winter epoch
so i had a stupid/not particularly complex pf2e character that was just, "Champi...
Well there are two ways of doing that, Champion with Gunslinger Dedication or Gunslinger with Champion dedication
mint eagle
Being dead and coming back is possible
it's just very funny that there's a feat with the requirement that you have to have died to take it lol
mint eagle
Well there are two ways of doing that, Champion with Gunslinger Dedication or Gu...
does champ dedication actually give you the whole not-smite champ smite thing?
winter epoch
not sure, would have to double check
just know that to activate the Smite, you need to do your champions reaction
which requires you to be close to your allies
nope, you only can get access to the reaction of your chamion dedication
you can get divine ally though, which can work with your weapon
mint eagle
seems like champ + gunslinger is the way to do it right
those reaction things are kind of the champ cornerstone. might not be as strong of a shooter but it does the "paladin with a gun" theme better
mint eagle
Oh ranged reprisal is paladin cause only, huh. Does it even really work that well as a ranged attack? Like, can you at least use it to hit people that are sniping at your allies? Cause it feels like "technically you can use it at range but the range is really short"
Damn this system for being so interesting. I really just want to make all the characters
winter epoch
I mean, it is like the only ranged feat for a champion I know from the top of my head
though again, it only works if both ally and enemy are within 15 feet of you, which is something which goes for all Champion reactions, all reactions only work within 15 feet
Champion is really not meant for far ranged combat
you may want to focus on short ranged firearms if anything
like if you don't go Paladin, you don't need the feat, paladin just needs the feat because they otherwise can only use their retributive strike with a ranged weapon
mint eagle
maybe there's a different champ that works particularly well ranged, it doesn't feel like using a ranged attack if an enemy within 15 feet attacks and ally also within 15 feet is that useful
zenith stump
mint eagle
that feat is literally what my last message was about
unless there's something miraklu missed it seems pretty limited
winter epoch
Like I said all reactions have a 15 feet range
either the enemy has to be within 15 feet or the enemy AND ally need to both be within 15 feet
There is a ranged Focus spell called Sunblade which also gives the feeling of smiting, just you need to wield a sword or spear...
mint eagle
does animate dead need a body?
winter epoch
its not a summoning spell, it animates a Dead body
wait it is? okay the wording is weird
You summon a common creature that has the undead trait and whose level is –1; this creature gains the summoned trait. Heightening the spell increases the maximum level of creature you can summon.
So this is odd, technically you don't after that wording
which is bizzare
the only reference to needing a corpse is the flavor text at the start which is not reliable for mechanics
@zenith stump may I have your opinion on that?
mint eagle
Yeah the summon bit is what got me too
winter epoch
I really hope they clear that up in the revision
zenith stump
dredge up is basically bringing something up from a river, harbor or other area of water
basically a flavorful way of saying you get a corpse from somewhere when casting the summon spell
it doesn’t look like it requires a body to cast the spell
winter epoch
👍
mint eagle
Im thinking despite occult not being good at blasting maybe i should just go for it for my witch multiclass since i like the flavor and take some utility spells
Also apparently like, chromatic ray is specifically decent only for magus so i can at least eke out a decent damage spell
winter epoch
have fun with it
mint eagle
chromatic ray does pretty good damage but it's a 4th level single target spell which would normally be bad but on a magus that isn't too bad
mint eagle
looking at the pf2e races
there's a pug race? and for some reason their horrible fucked noses make breathing easier?
pretty sure if you throw tear gas at a pug it is not gonna have a good time
they're going for like "it's so hard for them to breathe if someone tries to use poison gas it doesn't even go in all the way" but-- that's not--
winter epoch
and?
I like the many Ancestries in pfe2, my only issue is, some don't have a 17th lvl ancestry feats, which is weird
dim spruce
I like the many Ancestries in pfe2, my only issue is, some don't have a 17th lvl...
Very annoying
winter epoch
It is only a couple but yeah, no idea why they did that
Still want to play a Gnoll, but with the 17th ancestry feat missing, its either versatile heritage or asking the gm to let you take another
or just take a lower lvl ancestry feat
winter epoch
Speaking of Ancestry for this guy, I am still debating which one to pick
LIke at first I took the Beastkin Versatile Ancestry, but that is mostly about being a Shapeshifter, which is not the concept I have in mind
Then I had in mind the Versatile Heritage Nephilim, because there is lots of OUtsiders covered, though the fitting outsider would be Rakshasa
Fleshwarped is more about horrific monstrosities then just someone changed to look diffrent, so that is onthe second place behind Nephilim
What do you guys think? Any suggestions?
mint eagle
Are you gonna make it to 17th level?
winter epoch
Yes, why do you ask?
swift raven
i'm gonna take your DM hsotage just to make sure that doesn't happen
mint eagle
Yes, why do you ask?
from my limited knowledge, most games dont make it that far
so there'd be a lot of instances where a race without a 17th level feat wouldn't really be a problem
winter epoch
D&D 5e system has a tendency to completly lose balance at high levels, making it very hard to prep
dim spruce
a thing i admire pf2e for
mint eagle
oh pf2e works better at high levels?
winter epoch
yes, because it is balanced
mint eagle
cool
winter epoch
thanks to levels being a bonus to literlaly anything, from saves, to AC, to attack rolls, it makes math a lot less funky
yes characters are diffrent, but not by miles
also there are no spells which can instantly just end aboss fight, because of the incapacitation trait, making those spells work reliable on weak to medium enemies but a proper boss mosnter will never critically fail
is it completly balanced? No, but it is very close
and also the fun thing, martials are not outclassed by casters at later levels, so that also helps
mint eagle
i should find some pf discords
mint eagle
the wiki?
winter epoch
the official website backed by Paizo which has all the mechanics for free
it also has pfe1 and starfinder e1
winter epoch
it is not that simple
pfe1 is wild, it has SO MUCH STUFF, but with that it has also a lot of balance issues
you can accidently make an overpowered character, which I did with my Gunmagus
but you can also accidently make a character who can'T do anything, just because of bad circumstance, time limitations in the adventure and just bad enemies to face
also it is a headache to learn for a first timer
pfe2 is a lot more streamlined, still fun and versatile, but not to the insanity pfe1
so it is a give and take
mint eagle
*nods*
winter epoch
also pfe1 has like decades of materials to go through, pfe2 has only a few years
but they will catch up
so I appriciat both, but pfe2 is definitly easier to learn and easier to run
while still giving plenty of options
pfe1 greatest strenghts are the thousands of options!
its downsides? its thousands of options
good example is this list
that has all the feats on it
pfe2 made the right choice to not only make feats the main thing, but also to seperate them in groups
mint eagle
i found out about this hexcrafter magus archetype which apparently was a 1e thing and when i looked up the archetypes there was like 40 for magus alone lol
winter epoch
yup
and that is pretty average across most classes
then there is prestige classes you can also take
and multiclassing
So if you ever think about playing pfe1, go in with a strong concept in mind for the first time and look to play that, instead of trying to research everything
I tried and it just hurt my head, find a concept and make that concept work, that is the best way of learning t he system for the first time
mint eagle
hexcrafter seems to pretty much be what my magus/witch multiclass was trying to be so i'd probably try and go for that
evidently it's a pretty strong one from what i read
winter epoch
though you trade in powerful magus features
Magus were halfcasters in pfe1, but they had the ability of spell recall
aka spend some of your arcane pool pints to recall a used spell
mint eagle
ah, so basically the wizard thing in 5e
winter epoch
so you may have lower level spells and less spellslots on paper, but in actuality, you could keep casting spells by just fueling them
winter epoch
ah, so basically the wizard thing in 5e
not sure what wizard thing you are refering to
you mean the short rest recall a spellslot?
mint eagle
they can recover spell slots
winter epoch
yeah, but imagine that doing that mid fight like 5-10 times
depending on your level
So Hexcrafter is good, just it will play diffrent
but then again you will rather spend your arcane pool points of Hexes, which this archetype is all about
so fair trade, diffrent focus
instead of keep casting spells you keep doing permanent debuffs and buffs
those are worth a lot
another fun thing about pfe1, buffing
it is something
at high levels when you have casters, it is all about casting buffs before combat, "Haste, stoneskin, freedom of movement, enlarge, Bull strenght mass" or whatever your group prefers
which is fun, it rewards preperation
but it is also a lot of tracking and well some planning
"bless, blur, mirror image, invisiblity, greater invisiblity, bears endurance,"
mint eagle
i really want to find more 2e games, i think i'll keep this frog hand adze inventor thing on the backburner and go for this silly holy knight with a gun character if i end up finding a second campaign
mint eagle
or second "group" i guess, technically the 2nd campaign is probably going to be my follow up campaign for this same character
winter epoch
like that is the advantage of pe1, if you have a roughly fantasy character concept in mind, there is probably something
mint eagle
from what ive learned it seems like i should start gunslinger, pick catfolk as my race for + dex + charisma and then take champ as a dedication
winter epoch
seems like a reasonable approach
though honestly you might not need charisma, depending on the build
mint eagle
i need to take a race with a triple stat increase in order to hit 16 str 18 dex 14 cha for multiclassing
winter epoch
why?
mint eagle
need 14 str/cha for multiclassing prereqs
winter epoch
then why 16 strenght?
but yeah I think I get it
though may I give an alternative suggestion?
mint eagle
i could go for 14 str 18 dex 14 charisma but i'd like to have big ol armor for the flavor
winter epoch
you want to "smite" people with your ranged weapon, yes?
mint eagle
it's more about being a holy knight who just kind of has a gun
winter epoch
ahhh
I still think there is a better alternative
give me a moment
looks through archetypes
mint eagle
being a catfolk seems fine honestly, i mean, i could just go for scale mail but idk it seems fine going for catfolk to be able to walk around in plate later on
winter epoch
question, what does Champion give you, what not just playing a devout warrior of a faith doesn't?
mint eagle
it's kind of a double reveal, he comes off as a generic paladin with an oath to do good and then he pulls out a fuckin gat, and then he falls off a cliff or something later on and just deftly lands on his hands and feet and eventually he pulls his helmet up and you see he's a fuckin cat
winter epoch
but what about after that reveal?
mint eagle
i mean i dont have his backstory written out or anything, he'll have some kind of motivation
winter epoch
can i still show you some alternatives which I think might work for the concept?
because Champion is just focused on a melee character, and there are plenty of options
winter epoch
nope, not cleric either
if you want heavier armor, Sentinel is straight up the arhcetype for focusing on armor
Knight Reclaiment, which is maybe lore fixated, but beyond that, it is about a more stealth and survivable approach of fighting against unholy abominations
this is a Firearm specific on e which focuses more on being a law enforcer, but I decided to put it in just in case you are curious
mint eagle
is knight reclaimant a normal class or like a special class
this is still pf2e right?
winter epoch
its an archetype
yes
you know how class dedications work?
these here are essentially dedications, but not from a class, but seperate themes
champion dedication, cleric dedication, those are multiclass archetypes
there are much more archetypes
mint eagle
okay so it functions in a similar way to a dedication but it's not. it's like a special class that only exists as a set of feats(?)
winter epoch
no to the first, those are still dedications, but yes those are not derived from classes but are isntead independant feat lines
for example if I want to play someone who is extremely acrobatic
I can take the acrobat archetype
taking the dedication feat and as many other feats from it down the line later
or just be happy with the acroabt dedication feat and the level 4 acrobat feat and then just continue with my original class
of course those also have prerequisits, but those are not usually stat requirements, but instead proficiencies and/or skills
mint eagle
no to the first, those are still dedications, but yes those are not derived from...
no because archetypes are also dedications, but they aren't class dedications?
winter epoch
yup
mint eagle
ok i think im caught up
winter epoch
those usually go very specific themes, there is not everything, but a good selection of options
mint eagle
any info on this crimson oath?
gunslinger + knight reclaimant could work for the gun paladin
sand drum
pfe1 greatest strenghts are the thousands of options!
its downsides? its thousan...
As someone who has taught multiple people how to play pf1e, this is painfully true.
winter epoch
ahh that
well that arhcetype is bound to some lore in Golarion, of course you can just ignore it and work with your Gm to rework it
but for the context of Golarion, those are essentially a Group of Survivors fighting back against an encrouching army of Undead lead by the recetnly unleashed Whispering Tyrant, who is a threat to literally everyone
they focus on winning, rather then honor or glory, they need to survive and safe people and destroy the undead menace at all costs
winter epoch
As someone who has taught multiple people how to play pf1e, this is painfully tr...
Good that I hit the nail on the head
mint eagle
i'll see about the reskinning kc if i ever find another game
i had heard about sentinel before but i needed holy flavor for my character to work the way i wanted it to
heard liberator could be okay for a gun guy tho
winter epoch
no argument there, just wanted to put out other options too
mint eagle
does champ dedication even get their like, reaction thing?
mint eagle
i feel like gun + champ might still be able to work
winter epoch
mint eagle
so i could potentially just forget about the reaction and take what would be a benefit for gunslinger
winter epoch
yup
the fun about arhcetypes you don't have to take all their feats only the ones you like
champion can be a great buff to HP, giving you lay on hands for a quick heal etc.
armor proficiency
mint eagle
a kc gunslinger might work for the theme better (it has a quasi smite thing, right?) but it seems like gun+champ might have some legs still
winter epoch
you can have more then 1 dedication, but you can only have so many dedication feats unless you have enough feats from that archetype
and I mean, would you count that as a smite?
wait right it requires a melee weapon dang it
my bad, forgot about that
mint eagle
yeah im seeing some of this might be melee dependant
winter epoch
but that is again the fun some
though I am going to be honest for a gunslinger you don't really need to smite
you will blast plenty of heads
Fatal on a character with high to hit bonus it will get explosive
mint eagle
yeah, i think gun+champ+catman should be alright, there might still be a reaction that isn't too bad on a gunslinger but i dont have to take the reaction if not
winter epoch
indeed
also there is funnily enough some magical things you can do with gunslinger, but it is less divine and more arcane
and one you literally wield monster guns
mint eagle
yeah, if i just wanted to smite fools with a gun, gun magus would be perfect, but alas the vibe is the most important
mint eagle
i just think it's funny to see a benevolent holy knight pull out a gun in righteous fury
mint eagle
holy knight using a charisma check trying to try and end a fight without bloodshed and he's literally just threatening them at gunpoint
winter epoch
I mean, holy knights can be rather terrifiying
This is Cadok, my Redeemer CHampion, Zealot of Kindness, he loves to give hugs
mint eagle
it's honestly more funny than terrifying but it would be pretty uncomfortable for the people experiencing it
winter epoch
Believe it or not, this is how he looked at the start of the campaigne
Sorry for the sidetrack
mint eagle
hey no worries! chat rooms are all about the sidetrack
ive got my own track going on in the background which is why i disappeared for a sec
damn, yeah, bro really went through it lol
winter epoch
yeah, becoming a Lesser Archfey, getting equiped by an Angel and then getting blessed by the evil got of Slaughter and War does do some changes
his quote "I am just a Guy who wants to help" has become a joke
mint eagle
do you ever play spellcasters? thinking about what occult spells might help me out down the line
winter epoch
I do
mint eagle
on my iron magus
winter epoch
I am currently playing a level 11 Psychic with the Time mage Archetype
occult spells which would help a magus mhm
my character is mostly a ranged blaster, support and crowd control
for cantrips which are useful, telekinetic projectile, warp step, time sense, shield come to mind, but I think those are also on the arcane spellslit
when it comes to low level occult spells which would specifically help Magus, let me look
mint eagle
i've thought about taking shield as my witch cantrip and freeing up a slot for ray of frost, would be kind of nice to have at least one ranged option
idk maybe just using a turn running around really is the best choice
winter epoch
I wouldn't know any spell which specifically would help a magus which is only on the occult spelllist and n ot only on the arcane spellist
there are useful spells like soothe, because healing is always useful
True strike is always good but you get free spellslots from that and also is on the arcane
Time sense also an arcane spell
tge things occult usually has is buffs and debuffs, many of them needing sustain which may or may not be something you want to have
there is this spell which is not sustain and only occult, but it is a save rather then an attack
Gravity pull, also on the arcane spellist
mint eagle
🤷♂️ honestly as long as they're good spells i guess it doesnt matter if it's occult only
winter epoch
then you have good choices
mint eagle
also it doesnt necessarily need to be a combat spell, utility also works
winter epoch
then Sooth, I can always suggest, helpful steps is fun and very specific
also I love those classic bard spells
this is also a very fun spell
mint eagle
i have some dumb ideas for my familiar
i'm considering using two of its like, familiar features to make it levitate and talk so i'll have this floating dog with a man's face
winter epoch
have fun with that
mint eagle
just a really unnatural and offputting familiar
mint eagle
so do you think heightening soothe to level 2 might be a good call?
it's probably gonna be a limited amount of healing as a level 1 spell when the party is like 6 to 12
mint eagle
shit, i didnt even think about this, are mindflayers in pf2e?
huh
funny that they're in demon's souls lol
demon's souls is actually where i learned about mind flayers. it doesn't have a bestiary so i didnt know what their name was, i called them Squid Wizards
mint eagle
maybe demon's souls was just legally distinct enough. probably easier to make a vaguely mind flayer esque enemy in a game with basically no story than to implement a legally distinct mind flayer in a ttrpg
they're just kind of monsters with squid heads that serve as jailors. but i do think the official strategy guide does refer to them specifically as mind flayers
they aren't from space, they dont have psychic powers, they're just kind of... weird squid wizards. they shoot spells out of a magic bell
sand drum
That's hysterical.
mint eagle
dm: heh, this all could be over, if anyone thought to pack rubber boots!
player: so... funny story--
this seems like a solid level 1 spell
even at higher levels
mint eagle
i forget how cool magic items are
i remember there's like, pearl of power in 5e, just found out about this ring of wizardry thing
winter epoch
is the Pearl of Power not also in pfe2?
winter epoch
huh, it is not, interesting, instead we have the mentioned ring of wizardry for arcane
molten furnace
is the Pearl of Power not also in pfe2?
Pearl of Power may be a WotC copyright thing.
There are really obscure ones like that which come up from time to time.
winter epoch
fair, just I remember fondly the pearl of power my Gunmagus used in that pfe1 campaigne
mint eagle
how do i know if a spell needs material components
mint eagle
will it have that "material" tag cause i dont see any spells of mine that have one
is it sort of rare to require that cause i'm trying to save some gold
winter epoch
because it is extremely rare in pfe2
mint eagle
okay cool, i can get rid of this material component pouch then
winter epoch
it was once a way of limiting spellcasters, but pfe2 removed those because it was too complicated with little effect
you can even use somatic components while holding a weapon
it only restricts you from casting if you areliterally incapacitated or restrained
and a minor failure chance while grappled
I think it is mostly with spells which take a while, and maybe some rituals, again I so rarely see that tag, I can'T remember a spell that has it in pfe2
mint eagle
okay. but it will probably have the "material" tag if it requires them
winter epoch
it wil be right there next to somatic and verbal component
mint eagle
so witch familiars just respawn the next day if they die?
winter epoch
yes, luckily they are not as expensive as back in pfe1 where they cost as much as a spellbook
like a few thousand gold pieces at low levels
mint eagle
so exploding your familiar is a solid tactic
winter epoch
yes
your familiar might complain
"So I get up early in the morning to give you all your magical spells, and that is how you thank me?"
mint eagle
the familiar i've been imagining is a dog with a man's face that levitates
honestly it might be more uncomfortable if he enjoys it
talks about how exhilarating it is to die
winter epoch
if you enjoy that, great for you
I did once play a chjaracter, my Gunmagus Fenris who did not care about how he died, because he thought he was doomed anyway
so for him his life was a joke, and he was just going to make it as interesting as possible while it lasted#
mint eagle
i like when things are funny, i dont go out of my way to like, try and make people laugh exactly, mostly just amuse myself. having my magus guy go so long hoping to become a witch and then become a witch and get this weird ugly familiar is funny to me
also the levitating aspect, i want to picture him like, just straight up not having like an "animation" like he's just kind of standing stiff floating around
mint eagle
is this a tiefling? or some pf thing
mint eagle
it would be disturbing if you saw it in real life yeah, but idk just imagining it it would look really stupid
winter epoch
the fun thing is, for your characters that is real life
mint eagle
yes, but it's funny as an outside observer
winter epoch
indeed
mint eagle
ooh, learning about this "specific familar" business
mint eagle
there's only a couple that seem really worth it
winter epoch
what do you mean?
mint eagle
you can get a like, slightly better familiar if you have the required traits, instead of just going for like a custom build a bear familiar
there's only a few that i'd consider over just picking my own familiar traits
winter epoch
and that is fine
mint eagle
i know familiars aren't meant to be battle buddies but considering some of these "specific" familiars get attacks anyway it feels like they might as well be able to take a strike action for the sake of like, just logic
i guess paizo has a vision for what familiars are for and fighting isnt it
it'd be fun to have a humanoid familiar and just like be able to have it punch people and stuff sometimes
there's a witch in adventure time who has a "crabbit" familiar and at one point it takes a humanoid form and just starts wrestling marceline and they get in a fist fight lol
dim spruce
I remember that gremlin lol
mint eagle
so there was this rule where like, if you have a pet but it's not combat trained it gets startled when fighting breaks out,
i only learned about that rule specifically cause i remember reading that familiars *dont* have that problem, despite them not being intended for fighting or whatever
was looking for that rule again and found a thread where someone was like "yeah, your horse wouldn't just stand up to an ogre if it showed up, it'd run away" and that made me think of the insane bloodthirsty horses from elder scrolls that just kick the shit out of enemies
it would be funny to have a horse animal companion that's trained in combat and just goes fucking berserk when combat pops off
winter epoch
Animal companions are a thing, Champion can get them, there is also the Cavalier and Mammoth Lord archetype
mint eagle
i know i just think it could be funny to lampshade the super violent elder scrolls horses in pathfinder
molten furnace
As a GM I would rule that a class associated companion (Champion, Ranger, Druid, Summoner, any Familiar, and Inventor) is battle trained. Thus, bloodthirsty horses are viable.
A person purchasing a hunting hound, a travel horse, or a Cauldron should be aware that those pets are NOT battle trained, and can't do anything in combat.
Rituals that provide Minions fall into the former category...so yay necromancers and enchanted swords.
mint eagle
Yeah i was prolly gonna take one of the classes and add beastmaster or whatever
Prolly take advantage of the whole mounted combat weapons at some point but should spend a lot of time on foot so the psycho bloodlust horse can wild out
Or could just forget mounted combat so whenever we arent travelling the horse is just there as a 2 ton psycho to stomp mfers
winter epoch
why would you take beastmaster, if you already have a class that gets those feats?
or atleast most of them
winter epoch
Beastmaster is mostly for classes which don't get animal companions
there are some things which not all classes get but that is a couple of feats
mint eagle
Ill jump on pathbuilder tonight and check things out
Considering paying for the extra stuff since ive got holiday funds
winter epoch
it is a once per time purchase
also note, the mobile and the computer version are seperate thing
but again still pretty cheap
mint eagle
Yeah, it being one time is the thing that makes me actually want to give them my money
Also the fact i have a pet character idea is making me want the pet stuff
Id probably only go for the computer one, i dont like doing anything intensive on the phone
mint eagle
okay, so ranger is basically single target damage
instead of doing the favored enemy stuff you use an action to designate something as your prey and you get bonuses against it
and it can just kind of be anything? can you do it unlimited times?
mint eagle
and it does work unlimited times, it's just kind of ranger's spellstrike?
winter epoch
rangers spellstrike?
if you mean Magus SPellstrike, no it is even better, it doesn't need recharge
you spend an action and a viable target becomes Hunted Prey, thats it
mint eagle
i just meant it's like a spellstrike for ranger i guess, communicated that poorly i guess
it's an infinite feature
winter epoch
yes
mint eagle
is this like, a prey AoO? is this worth taking at all?
cause ranger probably just gets AoO anyway and it'd cost the same action
winter epoch
have you looked?
mint eagle
or maybe ranger doesnt for some reason
mint eagle
well it doesnt need to be free
winter epoch
yes, those costs feat, Ranger gets Disrupt Prey, other classes get it from Attack of oppertunity feat
mint eagle
magus can just take *the* AoO as a feat, but ranger only gets disrupt?
winter epoch
winter epoch
magus can just take \*the* AoO as a feat, but ranger only gets disrupt?
yes
mint eagle
alright, well, i guess that's an option. ranger at least gets the like, sentinel business on top
winter epoch
also the thing is, Disrupt prey is tied to hunt prey, AoO doesn't
winter epoch
yup
So yeah Fighter get AoO at lvl1 from the class, Barbarian, Champion, Magus, Swashbucklers
winter epoch
no they didn't, they got disrupt prey, which does effectivly the same with a small change
they get it 2 levels earlier even
if they take it
mint eagle
i think i'd rather just have umbrella AoO to be able to snag anything that triggers it
it's not a horrible option, you get the quasi sentinel stuff with disrupt and you get it at level 4 but i think being able to just threaten anything within your range is more useful
it'd be nice to just have real AoO as a martial
winter epoch
Rangers are the in between Rogue and Fighter
winter epoch
nope
there are some diffrent feats, but if you focus on it, you don't lag behind at all
though Champion animal companion focus on it being a mount, while Rangers animal companions can be mounts but also can be easily attack companions seperate from you
mint eagle
ok here we go, divine ally shit
winter epoch
yep
and it is great for champions, because they want to be in the frontline, and a mount is a great way to get fast across the battlefield
so it gives great mobility
mint eagle
i think maybe for the silly psycho elder scrolls horse character i should not do any of this mounted combat stuff and pretty much just use it as a normal like combat animal companion like a wolf or whatever
winter epoch
why?
mint eagle
if i try and dip my toe into the mounted combat i'll be detracting away from the main gimmick of the character and i'll like keep needing to decide if i want to just ride the horse or if i want to do the meme of the horse running around stomping things to defend me
mint eagle
not necessarily that it's difficult, just like, maybe i should make a mounted combat guy as a different character and fully embrace the mounted playstyle on a differerent guy down the line
the main silly gimmick of this is that the horse is just fucking down to throw hands at the drop of a hat, like he isnt using it for normal horse purposes the horse is just super violent and runs around trying to kill stuff on its own, i think the idea will work better for this character if i lean into that and the horse is just 100% of the time a side by side combatant instead of 50/50 mounted combat/independant ally
it's basically a normal animal companion but instead of something genericly badass like a wolf or boar or something it's just this horse. and when we travel we can use it like a normal horse sometimes
winter epoch
just as a note, animal companions do mechanically not act independant unless you are knocked unconcious or they find themself in a death situation, like standing in fire
War horses can be badass so not sure what you are talking about in that last bit
mint eagle
i know you need to use an action to command them (until like mature?)
i just mean when you think of like "a badass animal you fight side by side with" you dont picture a horse cause if you're using a horse to fight you're fighting as one unit, not as two separate combatants
winter epoch
and no, not even in mature, its at the advanced animal companion where they get 1 free action on your turn if you don't command them
otherwise it is a 1 to 2 trade
mint eagle
yeah idk what it is, it's some kind of thing that gives them independant. it's probably easier to do it for familiars cause you can just fuckin select it
mint eagle
how does biting words work?
someone said it could be a good occult spell for a magus
winter epoch
Its Essential a buff
you cast the spell, and for the next 10 rounds, you can spend an action tobactivate the attack it grants
mint eagle
Damage isnt the worst for a level 2 spell slot
Does the first 4d6 come out as you cast the spell? Or does casting it just activate it
Is it one spell attack roll for it to activate and then you just use an action to roll damage or do you make an additional attack roll each time
Sorry so many questions
winter epoch
4d6? if it is heightend to lvl 2 yes
and no, this is a buff which after casting, lets you do those attacks seperatly
which also means they can't be used for spellstrikes
winter epoch
Sorry so many questions
And don't worry this place is here to talk about stuff like that
mint eagle
You *can* attack with your words once when you finish Casting the Spell
ok that's one of the questions i had
if you had to roll damage when you cast it
winter epoch
nope, because again the spell it self is a buff
mint eagle
but it does use attack rolls
winter epoch
it actually doesn't
the spell gives you an abiulity to later do attacks, but that is not attached to the spell itself
mint eagle
right, the attacks use attack rolls
mint eagle
that was the question
winter epoch
ahh, yes those follow up attack rolls are attacks, as the spell states
mint eagle
it's a weird spell so just yeah, figuring it out
seems pretty solid damage though even if it's spread across a few rounds
winter epoch
it just takes actions to set up and then use following up, which could be a good combo if you know you are in for a long fight
mint eagle
ohh would this biting words shit count for MAP?
winter epoch
yes, any attack roll does
mint eagle
hrm
well i'll ask this guy on reddit to see how he pictures this being useful for my magus
cause he recommended it to me
winter epoch
honestly it does not seem that useful to me, it is not usable with your spellstrike, it requires set up and multiple actions to fully use and Magus is a bit action starved
it might be useful for a character who does other things during a turn like skill checks and then throw in a good attack roll in between which doesn't take 2 actions from a distance as a caster
mint eagle
yeah i thought it was just like, you make an attack roll and then the spell activates and you can use an action to roll damage for free like an auto hit
winter epoch
it is definitly not that
mint eagle
wild that true strike actually works in pathfinder cause you can take three actions
winter epoch
not really true strike is only an issue in D&D 5e
molten furnace
D&D's design philosophy has progressively gotten out of hand since WotC took it over.
...not saying TSR was much better, but D&D takes a decidedly prescriptivist stance on design, trying to prevent unintended interpretation, but failing miserably at it because their design team is more interested in creating money-generating bloat, not quality content.
To be fair, that is a common issue, not one specific to just WotC. But WotC is particularly obvious about it.
You also see the same thing happening in M:tG
sand drum
I loved MTG. I still have my old decks. I used to know what nearly every modern card did off the top of my head. I played any color I could make a viable deck out of. Now? No single person can keep up with it. There's so much schlock. I think the latest Elesh Norn had 12 or so variant arts?
dim spruce
Mtg is quite fun but corrupted by money nowadays
molten furnace
like some kind of evil magic card monkey corrupting the land
There is indeed a Monkey that most people seemed to hate because it was dominating the play field.
"corrupting" it, one might say.
dim spruce
edgy field
like some kind of evil magic card monkey corrupting the land
Yeah, its name is Ragavan.
sand drum
A 2/1 for 1 red? 2 mana for a 2/1 with Haste???
Jeez that looks annoying.
Oh, and it vanishes at the start of the next end step.
molten furnace
Oh, and it vanishes at the start of the next end step.
It is the manner in which it is abused.
And it is very abusable.
sand drum
It is very abusable.
If you don't have instants for creature removal, it's going to be a permanent thorn in your side.
edgy field
There's a reason it's a $45+ card.
mint eagle
i wanna do one of these guys but he's a charming rogue dressed exactly like this
where does his hat go exactly? i dont know
mint eagle
the hat's necessary for his brand
didnt realize though, the hairs are eyes too?
neat
mint eagle
im not sure a dm would penalize me for it but it's great flavor that he's so committed that he wears his silly little hat
he'd basically just be blind immediately above him which isnt the worst, with peripheral vision from the other eyes especially
mint eagle
doubt that it'd be a problem mechanically you mean
winter epoch
yes
You have eyes that point in several different directions and instinctively notice movement in the peripheries of your vision. When you use the Seek basic action, you can look for creatures in two areas instead of one. If precision is necessary, you can select two 30- foot cones or 15-foot bursts within line of sight instead of one.```gotcha, yeah i just remembered how scary and bizarre these guys looked and something clicked in my head and i imagined one of them in this familiar cartoonish getup, it'd make for such a weird design, i'd really want to draw that
also they're described as being so cagey it'd be interesting seeing one with the personality of robin hood
what are rogues like in pf2e compared to 5e
it's interesting that finesse weapons use str for damage in pf2e, are ranged weapons purely dex?
winter epoch
Dex to hit, no damage bonus unless you have a composite bow of sorts
specifically a bow needs this trai to get a bonus to damage from your strenght
winter epoch
what are rogues like in pf2e compared to 5e
similiar niche, lots of skille, you get a skill feat every level, sneak attacks requires a bit of work, more options
mint eagle
Yknow pf2e is a lot more generous with stats i spose so i guess using both isnt such a problem
dim spruce
too generous for me lol
winter epoch
I always prefered pointbuy
dim spruce
even then i dont like starting with 18 in a score
winter epoch
Diffrent meaning in diffrent system
dim spruce
Tru but i hate number inflation
dim spruce
Yeah i realised that a while ago. I appreciate the concepts it has taught me tho. 🫡
winter epoch
👍
dim spruce
I actually now accept vancian magic (tho this is bc of terry pratchetts discworld allowing me to understand better)
mint eagle
learned the paid version of pathbuilder also gates custom content so i took the plunge
im thinking falchion might not be an ideal weapon for my magus since it's benefits are only really for multi attacks and magus tend to just kind of do one big spellstrike blast
but a big two handed falchion is still cool flavor wise so i took all the bastard sword statistics/traits and created a custom "falchion" that's just a bastard sword mechanically
(dont worry i asked my dm if it was cool, apparently he might not have the full version of pathbuilder but he just decided to have me create a separate copy for him where i just have a bastard sword on my sheet)
mint eagle
you can have an elephant??
winter epoch
Yeah
mint eagle
even if ranger gets animal companions it seems like it's not really a loss taking beastmaster, it's one feat for a companion either way, available at 1 for ranger or 2 for BM dedication, and if you take BM the beast just levels up at earlier stages for you
guess it mostly just matters if you need those level 2/4 feats right away or if you want your pet beefy asap
you could take it like, 1 class feat, 2 bm, 4, class feat, 6 mature pet, 8 incredible pet if you wanted the pet strong faster but needed that other mid level feat asap
winter epoch
Fair enough
mint eagle
getting the incredible pet at 8 instead of 10 feels nice, especially when the horse is only throwing a d6 around instead of an 8
getting the 2d6 at level 4 feels like it would be nice too
honestly if this is an elder scrolls guy maybe i could play a magus again
skyrim is the classic stealth archer thing but im more of an oblivion guy
oh wait yeah, magus and commanding pets doesnt mix well
winter epoch
Yeeah, Magus is action starved already
animal companions do compound that
though if you just use them to getquickly around the map
I mean spend 1 action to move twice is useful
mint eagle
considering the summoner route but it goes against the flavor a bit
the magic horse would do more damage tho and i can give it other shit, but it's funny if it's just a real horse that's just really scary
mint eagle
if i'm playing a magus, having these effects on a d10 weapon probably isnt as useful as just having a d12 weapon, right?
if i want to hit more than one enemy i should just use a spellstrike with a spell that can hit more than one guy
winter epoch
because?
mint eagle
i wont make it that far on this guy
i heard mixed things about spell swipe, not sure how it works exactly
seems like i'm probably good with my d12(and the option to one hand if i need to)
winter epoch
Which hybrid study did you want to take?
mint eagle
iron. i wont be able to use the stance when i'm one handing it but idk, the other d12 weapons didnt seem much more useful than just being able to one hand it sometimes if i dont have a hand free
like i could be climbing something or trying to carry something and still use my sword
versatile damage on a curved sword doesnt make much sense, i switched off the real falchion cause i wouldn't make the most use out of multi attack so taking sweep isn't really all that helpful, shove is okay but it mostly just lets me push people despite holding a weapon in two hands so like, i can just one hand the sword and push someone if i want
now, the katana deals 1d10 and has this whole deadly thing but it's uncommon so i'd need to get permission and stuff for that. i feel like i'll be alright just using this reskinned bastard sword
winter epoch
Greatsword does diffrent damage types, polearms have reach, so not sure why those are not useful
mint eagle
Ok so. I had a falchion, i decided maybe it wasnt the best for me mechanically because its weapon traits are all based on multi attacks but i like the falchion as a weapon, so i looked at the weapons i could reflavor into a falchion
winter epoch
I mean a greatsword would work just as fine
swift raven
sword go whack
mint eagle
Falchion is curved, i could just take greatsword stats and forget the piercing but eh, I'll pay the 4gp for the bastard falchion
Falchions are one handed irl anyway so it's cool being able to use this jumbo fantasy falchion one handed or two handed
winter epoch
The reason is, the Scimitar already fills the 1 handed version of such a weapon
mint eagle
Yeah, it's just gamey stuff
winter epoch
Because it has to, because sword definitions are a bit wonky, so they have to go eith a name
sand drum
learned the paid version of pathbuilder also gates custom content so i took the ...
1e or 2e?
winter epoch
e2
sand drum
Shucks.
mint eagle
so, MAP doesn't apply when you do something that causes a saving throw but if you do a spell with a saving throw does it count as an attack for MAP?
so like sword > electric arc, no penalty, but what happens if you electric arc > sword?
winter epoch
no penalty
mint eagle
Is there somewhere in the rules I'd point to that?
winter epoch
In the MAP rules
It specifies attacks
a saving throw is not an attack roll
if it was covering forcing avsaving throw, it would be mentioned there
if it isn't, then it doesn't
winter epoch
👍
mint eagle
couldn't find it searching on nethys but googling it took me to the nethys page on MAP
mint eagle
yeah i compared elecric arc and ray of frost and figured that out
i will probably take timber off my list for a bit but i need to at least drop a tree on somebody for the laughs before i do that
winter epoch
you are doing a lot because of humor
that seems to be a focus for most mechanics we have discussed so far
mint eagle
most of the character ideas i have right now are just ideas
winter epoch
that is how it starts
mint eagle
but yeah, i just kind of like making myself laugh, i'm not really trying to entertain anyone other than myself
if i find a character entertaining i tend to care more about them. that's the case for most of my message board rp characters and it seems to have carried over into my ttrpg characters
winter epoch
If it makes you fun great
and of course entertaining is important, I mean if you get into a long running campaigne, you play that character for a while, so it should be fun
mint eagle
sticking to timber though is more of a self imposed challenge, i chose not to take ray of frost and it's caused some problems for me in session 0/1 and the dm says it's ok if we want to move our spells etc around as long as we notify him but i dont want to make it too easy on myself and just hand myself the ranged option instead of toughing it out
winter epoch
Toughing out what exactly?
mint eagle
it's not like a struggle necessarily but there's just been a few encounters where i have to spend a turn just kind of moving/not being in range
winter epoch
also you are a prepared spellcaster, just find the ray of frost cantrip and prepare them accordingly
mint eagle
yeah but in game you aren't able to just prepare stuff whenever you want, right? it's like a daily thing
mint eagle
yeah, it hasn't been a full day yet
winter epoch
dungeon crawl in tight corridors and small rooms? you know what to prepare
open fields? take some ranged options
which spells did you put in your spellbook by the way?
I saw the list of the spells you had prepared, but that doesn't include everything
winter epoch
so that is 5, the other 3?
mint eagle
ohh what do i have learned?
winter epoch
The spellbook contains your choice of eight arcane cantrips and four 1st-level arcane spells
That is what you start with at lvl 1
your spellbook already contains more spells then you can prepare at a day
so you have 3 more cantruips you can have in your book and prepare accordingly
mint eagle
ray of frost, bullhorn, message
winter epoch
perfect choices, rounds things up
Magus might be a Gish, but they are still part wizard
mint eagle
he said to build our characters to level 3 so idk how many of these level 1 spells are what i had learned at level 1 or if some of them are from later levels
winter epoch
wait why lvl 3?
mint eagle
i have myself set to level 1 but idk if the spells learned are still showing up for my later levels
winter epoch
yes, your book contains them, so unless you in game lose the spellbook, you keep them
mint eagle
he said we were probably going to be going from 1-3 pretty fast
winter epoch
Each time you gain a level, you add two more arcane spells to your spellbook, of any level of spell you can cast. You can also use the Arcana skill to add other spells that you find in your adventures (see Learn a Spell). Though you lose some lower spell slots as you increase in level, you keep the spells in your spellbook and can prepare them in your higher-level slots as normal.
this is how the progression and addition of spells works
mint eagle
yeah i just dont know how pathbuilder works
winter epoch
you see the glowing book? when that is glowing, it is in your book
click on them to add them
mint eagle
i know i just dont know if like, say i started a new character, set it to level 5 and added a bunch of level 1 spells if i then went and set myself to 1 if pathbuilder would still show them as learned or not
so i might have more level 1 spells showing up as learned than i should right now
winter epoch
not sure what you are talking about
like you think pathbuilder just removes spells from your spellbook?
when you increase the level?
mint eagle
outside of like scrying i should only have so many 1st level spells right now, right? but i built the character to level 3, and i may have selected some more 1st level spells to learn that might still be showing up
it's eight and four at level, 1, right? i think some of the spells i picked on level up are still there, so i couldn't say for sure which ones are my four i picked at start
that's all i was saying
winter epoch
Spells do not disappear from your book
From an In game perspecitve, your character is carrying a tome full of arcane notes and formulars, whicvh they write in and prepare each morning from those they want. The ink doesn't dry out when you level up, those are still there unless you either lose the book or rip pages out
mint eagle
MATE
okay so
the tool i am using, pathbuilder, my dungeon master had us build our characters to level 3. i am not level 3 right now. but i selected all my spells up to level 3. i then set my level back to 1 in pathbuilder, so my spellbook might not necessarily be accurate for a level 1 character
winter epoch
ahh, okay now I understand
yeah the spellbook is seperate from your level, because technically you could have all the spells at level 1 from a mechanics point, so it doesn't mess with that
so you might want to have a seperate list ready if you are going like that
mint eagle
no worries, yeah there was a lot of like me saying the same three words over and over in different contexts so it would probably be difficult to parse
winter epoch
fair also I am tired, so the blame is probably on me
mint eagle
so yeah i was basically just explaining "i'd tell you which spells i have learned for level 1 but i think i have more than i should on my sheet right now"
winter epoch
👍
mint eagle
right now i think i'm probably just going to be using good ol shocking grasp since it is big number so i dont think i have to worry about those extra spells
winter epoch
I mean it is a solid spell
it is a staple of Magus, beacvuse good 1st level melee spell
mint eagle
we had this tutorial oneshot and at the end there was a huge metal construct and i did like 30 damage
apparently the dm has ran that tutorial for a bunch of groups and we were the only ones who just straight up killed the construct instead of beating it through other means lol
winter epoch
Magus specialty is to destroy that one in particular
mint eagle
oh right, the construct failed every single roll to turn off the duration damage too so shocking grasp was really pulling numbers
winter epoch
love that, also luckily pfe2 constructs areN#t just flat out immune to most spells
well atleast the golems were that
what kind of construct were you guys facing?
mint eagle
was going to provide a bunch of extra info that probably doesnt help but basically i dont really know, the construct was really huge, if it succeeded a shove check you got knocked prone and the one turn it actually decided to take a swing it nearly one shot the alchemist
winter epoch
yeah that could be a few, but I should probably lay down,
sorry for the confusion earlier but the bed is calling me
mint eagle
enjoy your rest
winter epoch
mint eagle
both the minibosses essentially told you their weaknesses in the vein of "fighting honorably" but the construct immediately started trying to push us into the bottomless void behind us after telling us "no pushing"
so as expected most groups just beat the construct by pushing him into the void but i was doing so much damage i was like "i feel like we should just try and kill this guy normally"
mint eagle
yeah that's the new thing with the sentient dungeon ancestry in it
winter epoch
no?
Six playable new ancestries to bring PCs' wildest characters to life: strong minotaurs, swift centaurs, magical merfolk, amphibious athamarus, animals awakened to consciousness, and insectile, metamorphic surkis!
not sure wqhat you are talking about sentient dungeons?
winter epoch
seperate thing, Battlezoo is a third party creation,
mint eagle
/shrug
I saw it on pathbuilder, guess i just mixed the two up since theyre both adding a bunch of monster ancestries
winter epoch
mixing it up?
Howl of the Wild has not been released yet
ahh okay now I understand
well I am excited for the new stuff
mint eagle
i googled battlezoo to find out what it was and saw this ad
winter epoch
I mean that is predictable
mint eagle
so yea, thought they were the same thing
mint eagle
people are saying expansive spellstrike isn't all that cause it's pretty much the same as just striking and casting a spell whereas reg spellstrikes you roll once for two attacks and avoid MAP
winter epoch
It offers you more options to spellstrike, yes that is true
mint eagle
but it seems like that isnt necessarily a valuable thing
winter epoch
Depends
your save dc will be usually lower then your to hit
but you will probably hit more thibgs with an AOE
but thats a matter of positioning
zenith stump
I find it funny that a dhampir rogue can use this to heal their self
https://www.aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Anatomy Doll
zenith stump
“I cast vital strike ball twice a day”
https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Amulet of Quaking Strikes
sour mortar
is there any pf1e gms thatd be willing to be my co gm for combat? sundays every week from 5-8pm
winter epoch
I am so happy for Fantasy grounds, high level pfe1 gaming buffs are.... a lot to track sometimes
sand drum
Paizo is apparently going to port mythic rules to 2e.
zenith stump
nice
sand drum
The technical term for my present state is "hype", and I don't even play 2e. It does sway me more towards trying it, but I still have no time.
winter epoch
No, it is extra powers throughout the campaigne
sand drum
Separate leveling system that uses accomplishments as opposed to experience.