Oh, I might be able to help, then. Whaddya need?
#pathfinder-specific
edgy field
digital saddle
I have a game at Wednesday evening and I thought pathbuiler was enough but I remembered its all jargon Idk what it means much less the game system x_x
sand drum
Pathbuilder is great. What jargon do you need deciphered?
digital saddle
Favoured class and Multitalented favoured class, traits, and Maximum character level??
sand drum
Maximum character level - what level do you want to build up to.
Favored class - when you gain a level in this class, you get either an extra hit point, skill point, or a special option determined by your race/class combo.
edgy field
Multitalented is Half-Elf, right?
Just means they pick 2 favored classes and if they take a level in either, they get a slight boost.
digital saddle
So half elves multiclass?
edgy field
They're better at multiclassing, but they don't have to.
sand drum
They can just take favored class bonuses with 2 classes instead of 1. You can safely ignore it if you don't want to multiclass.
Traits are backstory elements which give you mechanical bonus of some kind. Characters who were bullied can take Reactionary for that sweet initiative bonus, characters who are angry can take Axe to Grind, etc. You cannot take multiple traits from the same category, and most GMs will limit you to 2, though some allow only 1 or none at all.
edgy field
For games ive been in, it's often "Two traits and a drawback, take an additional drawback for an additional trait, maximum of 5 traits (Not counting the Extra Traits feat)"
zenith stump
if you are going ranger magical knack can be neat
sand drum
In fact, if you are going Ranger: don't.
sand drum
If you decide to play a Ranger, Magical Knack may be a beneficial option for you to pick up.
If you decide to play a Ranger, you may also find it beneficial to pick a different class.
(I'm just ragging on Rangers)
edgy field
Rangers are fiiiiiiine.
Just, like, play with the Skirmisher or Trapper archetype.
Spells are for nerds! Tie a bear trap to a crossbow bolt and fire it at a badger!
sand drum
That badger will never see it coming, and if it somehow does it will have no idea how to react.
edgy field
Precisely!
winter epoch
So half elves multiclass?
if you don't care for it, you can replace racial features like that with alternatives
Racial features are neat, but not huge
digital saddle
I might just opt for a pregen
winter epoch
That is completly valid
Pathfinder e1 has a steep learning curve
my best suggestion when making your first pf character:
Don't try to learn everything the system has from the getgo
Think of what you want to do and specifically work that out
that has helped me at the start
Pfe1 is dense and you can do a lot of things, Narrowing it down to specific things you want your character to do makes it easier to digest, then looking at all options at once
zenith stump
you can make a fighter that can cast spells despite not being a spellcaster
item mastery feats are funny
winter epoch
yep, if you want to make a fantasy character concept work, very likely pathfinder lets you do it
winter epoch
So I found this for a future Necromancer wizard debuffer build, and it seems like it would help cover the issue of: Many of my debuff spells would not work on undead
Because if I understand it correctly, I can put: death effects, negative levels, and energy drain on undead
but the latter half has me doubt that, since it seems to limit it? or does it just clarify that undead do get effected by all this, just what happens after it would kill a living being and what happens after 24 hours
sand drum
It includes the normal rule for reference, which is nice. Modifying a spell with this feat allows you to throw death effects, energy drain, and negative levels at undead, although they automatically succeed when rolling to recover those levels, and vampires (smarmy jerks) can come back as normal if killed with negative levels.
winter epoch
gotcha, thanks for confirming
sand drum
Anyone else find it weird that the only way to get the Winter Witch prestige class is to be running the Winter Witch archetype for witch? Why weren't these just rolled into the same package?
winter epoch
it is only sort of weird, those were kept in mind for the Winter witches in Irresen, where the lower ranking witches are just witchs, while the more powerful ones have the Prestige class
so it was intentionally made
I completly aggree that it is off putting because no other class behaves like that, but it was done very intentionally
sand drum
I think I get the rationale, so at least it serves a purpose.
winter epoch
I was at first also confused and thought the prestige class must ahve been added a while later, but no, they came in the same book iirc
sand drum
I looked it up, and the archetype came out in Inner Sea Magic in 2011 while the prestige class came out in Paths of Prestige in 2012. Doesn't rule out reprintings together in later books though.
winter epoch
fair
I atleast know that the book about Irressen, the Witches had both the archetype and the prestige class, that is what I remembered, I looked that up years ago
sand drum
It makes sense to encounter them both that way.
winter epoch
also the thing is, Winter Witch prestige classes gives quite a few features, and since archetypes have to replace things, it may not ahve really worked to just pack it into the same archetype
sand drum
That's also more than fair when you put it like that.
Otherwise I guess they'd have to make an Alternate Class, like Samurai and Antipaladin.
winter epoch
which for that niche of a character concept would ahve been a bit overkill
sand drum
Potentially less used than the antipaladin.
winter epoch
yep
it is rather funny the Winter Witch is all about fighting with Cold in the cold
but most things in the cold usually ahve resistences against cold damage
of course there are things for the build which lowers that, but it has some interesting up and downsides
sand drum
Especially when you get up there in level and can functionally treat the enemy's cold resist as 25% normal.
So you deal half damage to cold immune creatures, and can deal a minimum of 75% damage to creatures that only have resistance.
winter epoch
yep, so it is an interesting approach, to just keep on with this theme and even work in this, or just abondon this and go with something completlky else
but the Winter witch is very good at navigating and seeing in the Frozen Landscape which in for exapmle Irresen would be a powerful boon
sand drum
It's definitely made for a specific situation, and it chooses to deal with that situation in a fairly unusual way.
zenith stump
Do you think this would be good/thematic with winter witch?
you could also take benthic spell or elemental spell to change a cold spell’s damage type
sand drum
If you change the element, the spell loses some DC, but it does give you a little more versatility. Rime Spell is nice, though.
zenith stump
which is a little weird BUT it technically means it would still retain the increased dc
sand drum
I mean, technically, yes.
Which is weird and feels like an oversight.
I feel like the elemental descriptor would change with the damage type.
sand drum
"Ray of Frost? Ha, no. Benthic Ray of Frost. For the giggles, my dear."
zenith stump
“Enjoy being soaking wet in the arctic tundra!”
sand drum
If you take a Racoon familiar, you get better at stealing. I just find this funny.
zenith stump
lol
winter epoch
@potent igloo you still got that question about druids or has that been resolved?
potent igloo
Yeah I did thanks
winter epoch
I really like the concept of the archetype, but so far I have little ideas for a character for it
any ideas or suggestions on that?
sand drum
Rouge who doesn't want to be caught without a weapon or the right tool, or maybe someone who needs to smuggle a weapon into places they aren't allowed to bring one. It looks super cool.
winter epoch
It definitly is super cool
it invites a very spiritual aspect to a martial character
I kind of want to put this on a monk funnily enough
or maybe it would be an easy way of putting a spin on monks spirituality on another martial class, without going the whole unarmed and unarmored style
sand drum
"I was raised by a monk, and his teachings on spirituality helped me to become what I am today."
"You summoned a ghost sword."
"I'm bad at Kung Fu."
dim spruce
Qn: how seperate should magic and technology be?
Because in a world born with "magic" there usually is not much difference between that and science
Also, any suggestions for a magitech build, strange that they never really made such a class in guns and gears. Focus spells could have been given or smth like runic imprint
^ this is also why I'm mad at spellshot
winter epoch
Also, any suggestions for a magitech build, strange that they never really made ...
The Inventor was in GnG, wasn't it?
That sounds like the thing you are looking for
winter epoch
Qn: how seperate should magic and technology be?
Magic us a direct usage of powers either within the caster, granted to the caster or manipulated by the caster, to create effects
technology is usually physical things you craft so the distinction for anyone in the know i would think
for those whivh don't understand? there may be more confusion
sand drum
"It's not magic, it's a spoon!"
"Witchcraft!"
zenith stump
Qn: how seperate should magic and technology be?
any sufficiently advanced technology is magic!
sand drum
Arthur C Clark, famous wizard, once said "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable to technology."
dim spruce
Magic us a direct usage of powers either within the caster, granted to the caste...
Runes are physical objects that interact with magical forces, meaning tge two sides can be combined
dim spruce
Arthur C Clark, famous wizard, once said "Any sufficiently advanced magic is ind...
Thanks for citing sources
dim spruce
"It's not magic, it's a spoon!"
"Witchcraft!"
Actually probably true somewhere
dim spruce
The Inventor was in GnG, wasn't it?
My beef with inventor is that it mostly only focuses on making a single innovation, I always see tech users as having a wide variety of gadgets at their disposal. I know there's feats but it comes at the same level as what is generally considered more powerful stuff at times which is kinda frustrating
sand drum
Using a spoon as an implement to cast either sympathetic magic or pyschic magic because it's associated with someone or something is a real thing n PF 1e. Occultists use implements to cast specific schools, and psychics can lessen the gold cost of spells with material components by using something relevant to the spell (like a diamond engagement ring belonging to the person you're using Speak With Dead on).
dim spruce
I guess I'm just mad tgat there's a tech class and magic classes but no magitech classes
sand drum
Magitech would be so much fun. Maybe we'll get one in Starfinder 2e.
winter epoch
There is a Magitec class in Starfinder already, the Technomancer
So it is extremely likely that it will appear again next edition
Also, if you say Runes are magitech, and you want multiple of those, why not just play a Thaumaturge whos Esoterica are a bunch of Runestones?
and you get up to 3 major implements
dim spruce
Also, if you say Runes are magitech, and you want multiple of those, why not jus...
It's kinda dumb that Thaumaturge is Charisma based
winter epoch
Disaggree on that
zenith stump
Pathfinder but there is a demon lord whose boon gives you an australian cow and grants you the ability to turn into a metal bull
dim spruce
Pathfinder but there is a demon lord whose boon gives you an australian cow and ...
Druid wildshape
dim spruce
Disaggree on that
Their whole shtick I'd that they can use objects and squeeze magic out of them, granting otherwise nonmagical objects certain properties. This should be something they need thexknowledge for
winter epoch
Which they have,
they are trained in arcana, nature, occultism and religion
so that is covered
dim spruce
But unlike inventor they need to specifically put ranks into them
And it makes them very MAD
winter epoch
They get free ranks for those, ontop of a free lore which progresses automatically up to legendary
zenith stump
they also get dubious knowledge for free
can pair it with this
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=860
zenith stump
they are trained in arcana, nature, occultism and religion
ironically they don't need to invest in any of those skills
they get Esoteric Lore & it scales for free and then you can take this feat
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3699
throw in unmistakable lore & dubious knowledge and you learn things even if you fail the check
also funny because it helps combat cuz exploit vulnerability
zenith stump
But unlike inventor they need to specifically put ranks into them
nah, they get esoteric lore for free and it automatically scales, throw in the diverse lore feat & you can use recall knowledge for any topic which removes the need to invest in those skills
they also get dubious knowledge for free (learn something true & something false on a non-crit fail), which could be paired with unmistakable lore (crit fail in esoteric lore? more like normal fail)
winter epoch
And if you invest in it, you can become legendary in all 4, plus in esoteric lore
zenith stump
what I'm saying is it isn't even necessary to invest in those skills
zenith stump
and if you really want to go ham
you could take assurance (esoteric lore) & automatic knowledge
now you can take 10 and make a free recall knowledge esoteric check on anyhing once per round
winter epoch
take the tome implement for constant bonus, and you are just a walking encyclopidia
and as you mentioned at the start, if you invest never in any knowladge skill, you can become a master in 1 or an expert in 2 and still become legendary in Esoteric, which is amazing
zenith stump
they get a free skill increase in one of the magic skills at 9 & 17 iirc btw
plus esoteric lore scales for free
trained at lvl 1, expert at 3, master at 7 & legendary at lvl 15
also tome is good for skill jockey
now you're even better at recall knowledge (esoteric) and you get two free expert skills that you can switch out daily
can pick up niche skills whenever you need 'em
winter epoch
and if you go full martial in Thaumaturge, they will still be very knowladgeable
like I have plans for a Thaumaturge with fighter dedication, but I can give him arcane sense, because I know I will be able to upgrade Arcana for free
zenith stump
it helps Exploit Vulnerability too
winter epoch
making the action more worth it, or what do you mean?
zenith stump
Additionally, when you succeed at your check to Exploit a Vulnerability, compare the result of your Esoteric Lore check to the DC to Recall Knowledge for that creature; if that number would be a success or a critical success, you gain information as if you had succeeded at the Recall Knowledge check.```tl;dr you gain the benefits of recall knowledge when using exploit vulnerability
like the magic gunslinger you built
winter epoch
Right yep, free recall knowladge
zenith stump
which frees up an action you can use for something else or another action to use recall knowledge on someone/something else!
I also like the scroll thamauturgy feat line that thaumaturge has access to
winter epoch
Yeah, combine that with trick magic item,and you can use anything
or just stay with the scrolls, already a huge amoumt of versatility
dim spruce
Oki, thx. Will look into it. Just a bit odd for Charisma to be its stat
winter epoch
Not for me, forcing reality to shift to your desire, using symbology of mortals to have physicsl power is not that odd that you would need a strong personality to force that
dim spruce
Would be interesting if they could choose between being a spiritualist who draws power from symbology and a scholar of such profane symbols
winter epoch
Then its great that you can already do that
the Esoterica can be reflavored easily
dim spruce
Lol, wonder how this community feels abt homebrewing classes
sand drum
I don't actually know, but I personally have beef with homebrew. Between using the names of other classes/archetypes and generally being very powerful, edgy, or just aggressively weird, I've found it best to just ban homebrew altogether.
Maybe I've just had bad luck in dealing with homebrew.
winter epoch
you definitly had back luck
There is bad homebrew, and there is great homebrew and anything in between
winter epoch
I have this latest character concept for a Monk, who was an bookkeeper in the past before wanting to improve himself and gain some inner peace and self confidence, and became a monk
The only thing I keep changing is what Ancestry to make him, because this backstory works with essentially any of them
Open to any suggestions
sand drum
Humans are pretty flexible in terms of changing life direction, but a dwarf could also be interesting.
winter epoch
I....huh never thought about playing a dwarf
it just never came really up as a concept
but yeah human is also a great option, the issue with that is, I am also tempted to take a versatile heritage, which gives me just more options
then again, maybe keeping it more straightforward would help the narrative?
and now the bouncing happens again
dim spruce
Perhaps a slightly lower Wisdom or Charisma could make them seem more unconfident
winter epoch
I have no huge plans on charisma with this build, and it does remind me of my first ever D&D character, a Tiefling monk with 8 Charisma
Either way, I don't have a solid case to go with a versatile heritage, so I got that worked out
winter epoch
I think I will go with a Catfolk
Because I think this is an awesome image for a Catfolk monk
dim spruce
Good for you 👍
austere ermine
how does feats like snagging strike where it says you need a free hand work with a two handed weapon, i assume you need to let go with one hand but what actions does that take if any at all?
winter epoch
It does not work at all with a two-handed weapon, because Snagging strike is still an attack
you need a one-handed weapon to use this attack
but to the question what actions it takes to let go of an item, that is a free action
Though with the wording, you can actually pull Snagging strike off with an unarmed strike, it doesn't say you need a weapon, just 1 hand free while striking
Now thinks about Monk with fighter dedication to consistently put enemies flat footed
dim spruce
Me thinking of wolf stance and how you could continuously attempt to trip people
winter epoch
Also very viable
dim spruce
Let's put our brains together and make the most annoying grapple build lol
winter epoch
I mean, grappling is annoying already as a condition, besides finding modifiers to support that would be the best way to go
dim spruce
So fighter with martial artists gorilla stance, wolf stance, wolf drag, mountain quake, knockdown, combat grab, dragging strike, improved knockdown, powerful shove, weapon supremecy?
winter epoch
do you think the multiple stances help?
also you forgot Mountain Stance for the Mountain Quake and mountain stronghold feat
So that would make 3 diffrent stances
dim spruce
Thx
winter epoch
I am curious, what kind of character concepts would you come up with this archetype:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=80
I personally would try out a Wizard or Witch vigilante
Essentially pretending to be a regular commoner, bookkeeper, hiding his magical capabilities for the Secret Identity
dim spruce
Stealth armour ininventor for batman/batwing build
winter epoch
That is an actually very great combo, making the stealth armor the disguise is very thematic
dim spruce
lol thx, just choose gadget specialist to go further into the theme
winter epoch
Funnily enough, you could take Thaumaturge to essentially create a magical gadgeteer
dim spruce
Best to go weapon Implement for magic gauntlet
dim spruce
tgen can beat up criminal with empowered gauntlets screaming "JUSTICE FOR GOTHAM!!!"
winter epoch
Meh, not really what I meant, but sure
dim spruce
Hot take: pathfinder should make all spellcasters like kineticist with focus spells in order to lower the difficulty and complexity floor and to bring down the power level slightly so as ro allow better specialisation for blasting if they so wanted to.
sand drum
Hot take: kineticist in 1e is hot garbage. I don't know how it works in 2e, but 1e kineticist has many problems I imagine most people homebrew away at their tables.
winter epoch
The big thing in pfe2, all classes are modular when it comes to set up their abilities, so it works very well with the Kineticist concept
And I disaggree with CoroHuh's hottake, Kineticists are great, but that doesn't replace Casters really, it is just a very supernatural martial with cool abilities
dim spruce
Well I feel that with the great crit success and fail system, converting pf2e to a roll to cast system would be quite interesting
dim spruce
The big thing in pfe2, all classes are modular when it comes to set up their abi...
Also, what's the difference between learning to use nagic vs learning martial arts other than magic and non magic, both are skills one has to practice to use. I guess that ppl stating kineticist is a pseudo caster is kind of inaccurate as they don't have focus magic
But wuts wrong with converting the entirety of pf2e from annoying spell slots to highly limited focus points?
winter epoch
Not sure what you are asking in the first half, because yes there are major diffrences
And to the latter, more options, more versatility and less Limits. It is great if you want to play like a 5e warlock caster, but that is not really everyones cup of tea
winter epoch
Well I feel that with the great crit success and fail system, converting pf2e to...
isn't that already the case with attack rolls and saving throws? you could reflavor a crit failed spell to not go off in the first place already
or do you want to make casters habe to succed multiple rolls to get off 1 spell?
dim spruce
Basically instead of set resources tgat are the complicated to keep track spell slots, just gave a simple slightly smaller tgat you only need to roll a spellcraft check to cast
Ala dcc
While I can appreciate game complexity, it could keep lots of ppl fro learning it
winter epoch
isn't dcc "you have a few spells, unlikely to work and do little else today, grab a weapon" kind of magic? else I am not really getting it
And well Pathfinder simply has some complexity, its kind of the sellung point of it.
And they already streamlined spellcasting to be much less complex. Including its changes via metamagic
And if you want to be a focus spell focused caster, you can already do that, monk or champion, so its not like there aren't alternatives
dim spruce
isn't dcc "you have a few spells, unlikely to work and do little else today, gra...
You should read the actual game, it's quite interesting. It's really rolling to cast and seeing what tge spell creates on the table
With the same spell, there is a table with different possible results for spellcraft and if you don't like it just homebrew the table to be less severe and slightly more consistent
But I do get the osr feels u may have
winter epoch
I have played it, not a fan
also your issue with spellcasting is, that it is complicated given the spellslots
but your solution is to add a new table and additional rolls mid combat, which takes a lot more time in combat, while spell preperation only takes up time during the preperation of the adventuring day
dim spruce
Too each their own
dim spruce
Wut r ur views on free archetype rule
winter epoch
I personally see them best for a campaigne with a theme, so you don't force classes, but still give everyone shared features
like for a Vigilante campaigne, free archetypes are a great rule
dim spruce
I honestly think they should have done a complicated but existing multiclass system similar to dnd since it may be slightly subpar but better allows certain fantasies that are a bit complex to be fulfilled
winter epoch
If you don't like multi class dedications as that more complex system, then I suggest pfe1
pfe2, each class is Essential frontloaded with features, hence multiclassing like in previous editions would be broken
in pfe1 you can multiclass just fine
dim spruce
Just because I prefer a different multiclass system does not mean I want broken builds
Seems kinda toxic
Making such assumptions
winter epoch
?
There is a misunderstanding
In pfe2, almost all classes get a main features at lvl 1
Champions get their reaction, Thaumaturge their Exploit vulnerability, rangers tgeir hunt prey, Rogues their Racket abilities etc.
I made no assumptions about what you wanted, but why multiclassing like D&D would cause issues in pfe2
dim spruce
Oki thx for the clarification
winter epoch
Which of the Magus Hybrid Studious seem the most interesting the most?
I am hanging between Inexorable Iron And Laughing Shadow on what I want to try out first, with Sparkling Targe being a close one too
dim spruce
honestly the shield one intersts me a lot since it can be a sort of captain america or shield hero build
winter epoch
For a Captain America Build I would rather suggest Figter with Everstand Stance, but if you want to give them the Hammer, go for it
dim spruce
what about a soldier boy?
winter epoch
That very depends on which Version and I can't say I am that interested in "The Boys"
I know there is the spinless bootlicker from the comics and a more competent version in the Series? thats the extent of my knowladge of the character
dim spruce
I prefer the one in the series who is similar to captain america but builds up energy in him tgat he can unleash in an explosion.
Basically he's a shield magus who casts fireball on himself
Though it'll be interesting to reflavour it as a shield inventor who uses explode
winter epoch
Isn't there literally an overload feature for Inventor?
dim spruce
Isn't there literally an overload feature for Inventor?
Overdrive
Imagine if there was a feat that added overdrive dmg to explode
But may be op
dim spruce
Any advice for a spellshot build
Or starlit span magus
I just wanna be a magic gunner gal
winter epoch
Which one depends on this:
You want to play a martial who has some Magic to get an edge
or
Have a Disciple of Shooting and magic equally
That theme woukd decide which class fits more
dim spruce
I'll take magus now
winter epoch
And I stumbled over this Archetype and I am really surprised
I really like this, and it funnily enough works very well with LIght armors, or atleast quite a few of its features
dim spruce
Add on Monk Barbarian multiclass to make near invincible character lol
winter epoch
I don't see it, what do you have in mind?
Like this archetype is all about armor, so I don't see monk being that helpful
barbarian though I could see some fun
dim spruce
Right hmmm
Monk Archetype has Monk resiliency and stances so that combined with Barbarian rage and the stalwart defender archetype would be quite powerful, also humans improvisation feats would be helpful to further mitigate the armour penalties
winter epoch
that sounds a lot for a character
also Stalwart Defender already grants a stance and most monk stances require no armor, while Tenacious Stance needs armor, so mid combat switching wouldn't work
swift raven
please don't multiclass purely for the abilities
winter epoch
Also what do you mean with Human Improvisation helping with armor?
dim spruce
please don't multiclass purely for the abilities
Thats just a playstyle for some
dim spruce
Also what do you mean with Human Improvisation helping with armor?
To reduce the armour penalty for checks with skills you aren't proficient in
swift raven
and those people are wrong
winter epoch
So wait you want a Dex barbarian? Or why do you want to avoid making a strenght build?
winter epoch
and those people are wrong
which part, building a character that works, building a character to fit a comcept, multiclassing in general?
swift raven
Multiclassing purely for the mechanics. I don't have a problem with multiclassing, i have a problem with not coming up with why your character chose to dip into bard, paladin, monk, druid, whatever
dim spruce
I can definitely come up with a concept for why a character would multiclass and in fact may build a whole character around a multiclass concept
The rulebook even adds why a character would multiclass in the Archetype section
dim spruce
and those people are wrong
That's a choice for them to decide
dim spruce
So wait you want a Dex barbarian? Or why do you want to avoid making a strenght ...
I have no problem building a purely defensive build made to be unkillable
Especially if its the character concept
dim spruce
Multiclassing purely for the mechanics. I don't have a problem with multiclassin...
Depends on the player, not definite
Also add Champion Archetype for protective reaction to protect your allies
Lol I'm getting dad vibes from this
winter epoch
I have no problem building a purely defensive build made to be unkillable
But why go with neither extreme of great armor and high strenght (which also negates skill penalties), or great dex with less armor?
or wear medium armor and have atleast enough strenght to avoid armor penalties
I think the highest strenght prerequisit for medium armor is 14, so not that difficult
winter epoch
Multiclassing purely for the mechanics. I don't have a problem with multiclassin...
There was no mention of that being the case, you can easily use mechanics to build a character concept, as the other way around
winter epoch
Good to know
But let me tell you, I made a Gunmage out of multiclassing in pfe1, , and he became one of my most fun Characters: Fenris Rolnesu, Dragonslayer, Freischütze, foolish Genius, Bastard with a Heart of Gold, Warden of an Artifact of Evil
And all that grew from trying to make a character who "Has a Gun and its Magic, how do I build that?" the rest is history
swift raven
yeah but my thing with it is like
it needs to make sense for your character, in the story, to learn this
If a fighter has recently been saved by a cleric, it makes sense for him to dip into paladin
if a monk has recently been in a situation where he was locked up for whatever reason, a rogue dip makes sense
but if you're wandering the marshes and haven't seen a lockbox for months
dipping into rogue because "lockpicking sounds neat"
doesn't make sense
is my entire thing
i don't except like
a 5 page essay
but somewhat of an explanation, at least
dim spruce
Maybe you multiclass in rogue to learn how to better use your skills to survive
winter epoch
but somewhat of an explanation, at least
Absolutly aggreed
swift raven
for survival, ranger would make more sense
winter epoch
Depends on If it is Wilderness or Urban Survival
winter epoch
indeed
Reninds me of my Archivist Bard, who at lvl 4 had researched a lot of occult and old lore, discovered some Dark Secrets and even got possessed
Which made me decide to let him multiclass into oracle, the Gm fully on board that multiple deities noticed what our group was doing and deciding to aid the m through granting divine access to knowladge
but his Curse, is that he is constantly haunted
swift raven
i once picked up tremorsense with the excuse that "the party spoke so much he had to find other ways of keeping track of what went on around him"
so like
winter epoch
XD
swift raven
i'm not expecting greatness
winter epoch
I realized something funnny, that if you go into a theme and commit to it, you can accidently make very powerful characters
I thought Fenris would die at lvl 2
but in reality he is the reason I am never allowed to combine magic and firearms again instead
Aldwin I thought would lose quite on magic for multiclassing ibto oracle
But now he has so many low lvl Spells and tricks, he rarely runs out on Abilities and healing
winter epoch
i once picked up tremorsense with the excuse that "the party spoke so much he ha...
How did you pick up Tremorsense actually?
swift raven
i picked up the Blind Fighting Fighting Style
this was in 5e
i think it's technically called blindsight
but we flavored it as more of a tremorsense
winter epoch
ah
swift raven
it's not exactly tremorsense
but based on the description we came to the conclusion that it would kinda have to work similarly
winter epoch
Its not as powerful/limited at it
Earth Elementals are terrifying Ambushers
Thanks to Earthglide and Tremorsense
zenith stump
unless you fly
winter epoch
Thats the limited part and very effective
dim spruce
What if there was a class built entirely around focus spells?
zenith stump
pathfinder warlock be like
dim spruce
pathfinder warlock be like
Nah pf version of 5e warlock would be like a summoner + Invocation feats
winter epoch
They would need to give some exceptiond to them on Focus spells work for them, but restrict them to use those on fovus spells from other classes, which could work
Like you have them to spend an action mid fight to regain a focus point, similiar to Magus recharging their spellstrike maybe?
The most Focus spell heavy class from the get go is Psychic, which gets a lot of fun options to augment their spellcasting, but they don't rely on it because those are quickly used up in a longer fight
dim spruce
Maybe they have a stance
winter epoch
Now you lost me
what does Thaumaturge have to do with Focus spells?
or do you rather mean their supernatural abilities work for you?
dim spruce
what does Thaumaturge have to do with Focus spells?
or do you rather mean their ...
No just the idea of such a class' name
dim spruce
There should be a support class that is a martial who uses skill actions to support allies instead of buffing themselves bc I want more than support/control casters
winter epoch
Thats the Thaumaturge
They have plenty of support Implements
from exploration with the lantern
Defense with the amulet
Healing with the Chalice
dim spruce
Thats the Thaumaturge
I want a higher focus on support in the main class
And for it to be less selfish
winter epoch
what exactly stops you?
dim spruce
Selfish playstyles
winter epoch
that don't use them, problem solved
dim spruce
I'm a caster stan lol
winter epoch
You did just ask for a non caster Support
Which again does exist
also medic archetype
very handy
dim spruce
I'm thinking using actions like intimidate to buff casters
winter epoch
Intimidation builds are also fun
Thaumaturge with Regalia, Rogues and Fighter builds are coming to the top of my head
Intimidating strike and Breach Defenses for the Fighter
winter epoch
Ohh There is also the Marshal Archetype
the Buffer Martial Archetype
can highly suggest it
late warren
Campaign?
swift raven
#977311273668714586
dim spruce
Hot take: there should be an inventor subclass about replicating magic using a technology based arcane focus
winter epoch
Easily done with all of them, specify their inventions uses magic
And once Starfinder e2 is out, you will probably like the Technomancer
dim spruce
Oh yeah definitely, looks cool
dim spruce
If you could change one class in one way, which one and how would you(witch not included for obvious reasons)
sand drum
Kineticist. I'd give them full BAB. The class still has glaring issues, but at least it can hit more consistently, which helps its lackluster damage output.
dim spruce
Honestly, I'd change tge dc for inventors unstable abilities to be lower so that they can do cool stuff slightly more consistently
winter epoch
Allow Thaumaturge to also be able to pick Str or Dex as key stat, though that might break the class which already has loads of features
winter epoch
dim spruce
Interesting, was dying to figure out how they would adapt to the no spell school thing
It's interesting how war mage is a fun blend of Abjuration and Evocation
winter epoch
It leaves them also a lot of free room
From the Sinmagic of Thassilon, to the Diabolists of Cheliax, those all could become Curriculums, maybe they will make them archetypes again, but the option is there
dim spruce
Well, that's gonna help them sell more golarion adventures as it ties even more strongly into the mechanics and seeing how toxic ppl can be this can result in more people refusing to use homebrew settings
Not complaining tho
winter epoch
I don't think that has anything to do with new mechanics
And like, looks at all the Archetype Its already common to have mechanics with such roots
dim spruce
When has the systems complexity ever been a problem for you guys?
And how would you possibly reduce unnecessary complexity?
winter epoch
Pathfinder e1 when I first learned it, because they was just so much, it gave me a literal headache to comprehend everything because I tried to read so much of it at once
But once I learned how it works and how to read it, I got over it
With now being reward, because there is so much there to use
sand drum
It was the same for me in 1e. When I was starting, I had no idea how to actually build a character, let alone a useful one. I had to rely on optimization guides, and for a while I only learned what I needed to know for a given character. That made the information less overwhelming and more digestible.
dim spruce
I honestly think pf2e has problems with decision paralysis
winter epoch
I mean, that is honestly a good thing to have options
though I have to say, I have not encountered that
dim spruce
Well you should at some point since the presence of so many options can be difficult for some
winter epoch
not yet
Like maybe when creating the character, but vbeyond that, in combat you usually knew whaz you had
we have 2 campaignes which reached lvl 10
dim spruce
Good for you
dim spruce
Should fighters attack bonus be nerfed from +2 to +1 to make it a bit more fair to other martials, this would also apply to gunslinger and if you want they would receive +1 damage upon getting the nerf
winter epoch
not for me
replacing the higher proficiency with an untyped bonus would be odd, seems unnecessary
winter epoch
I have seen barbarians carve up enemies with powerful strikes, so Fighters in contrast being more likely to hit and with more versatile techniques seems completly fair
dim spruce
not for me
replacing the higher proficiency with an untyped bonus would be odd, ...
It's weapon dmg
winter epoch
Yes, still the same answer
dim spruce
How to make casters feel more valued: have an aoe and control caster mage fight them and humiliate the martials through clever battlefield control. Players understand the value of positioning and to appreciate casters more. Can even add enemies that use skill actions like grapple to sabotage player saves to drive it home
#makecastersfeelgreatagain
winter epoch
Not sure what happens in your campaigne, that casters feel undervalued
But I do aggree that learning Positioning is important
dim spruce
Also new players need to be encouraged to have casters help martials and vice versa because there are people who hate casters in pf including me but I love everything else and want a more balanced view as lots of people only see casters as buff machines and I don't like it also the pseudo legendary resistance in pf is just kinda frustrating at some point when it disappoints players but it works and it's a feel thing so it's gonna cause controversy and all I want is for martials and casters to share power highs and climaxes
Sry for the rant, scramble brain
winter epoch
no need to be sorry, we are on a server to talk about stuff like this
and I mean, encouraging players to work as a group is never bad, it is highly encouraged
esspecially since how many buffs you can give each other
also I don't think bosses needed legendary resistences, because that would just make the combat impossible
bosses already crit a lot of saves, suceed most of the time and rarely fail
dim spruce
bosses already crit a lot of saves, suceed most of the time and rarely fail
Sounds like a pain
winter epoch
not really
it would be if the combats took forever, but they rarely do, because if you hit, you do hit
because if they succeed saves you still do damage, if the martial miss or crit mis, they miss both times, so that evens it out
do you risk an attack roll to potentially miss, or use a save spell which has a good chance of doing something
and it does balance out the fact that the boss has 3 actions and the party has around 12 actions
green turtle
Hey there im new to pathfinder 2e
Can you help me choose between alchemist , investigator and bard?
winter epoch
Yes
What do you want your character to do, because those characters can fullfill very diffrent rolls
the Alchemist is the Crafter, be it of bombs, potions, oils
Investigators are more skillfull then rogues with a high focus on intelligence
Bard is a occult caster, whos default abilities do a lot of buffing
what seems to fit more to your character concept?
green turtle
what seems to fit more to your character concept?
I really like sing and dance and all forms of art, so i always go with bard
but i saw that alchemist could be better for a chef character
but alchemist cant afford charisma
and i want my character to have good diplomacy
winter epoch
Well anyone can be a Performance heavy character, the bard simply uses it to cast spells
And here is the fun thing, yes having high ability scores for the right skill is useful, but not necessary
Proficiency+level+ability score modifier, the ability score modifier becomes quickly a very small number
just having a 12 or 14 is more then enough
So just raise Performance and dimplomacy and you are good to go
but also vice versa
you can make a bard who literally has cooking lore and just increase that lore
so your character is the best chef around
green turtle
yeah but i saw that the alchemist has this
alchemical foods
and a higher int for cooking lore
winter epoch
again same argument, the ability score boost is nice but not the deciding factor
it is more about the investment of proficiency which really make your character skillfull
And if you want, hey play a Bard with Alchemist dedication
or the other way around
green turtle
do you think that having a 10 strenght and 14 dex is enough to make the frying pan weapon usable ?
i think its pretty funny
winter epoch
not really, maybe as a backup weapon
also as either a bard or alchemist you would be very quickly shredded in melee
winter epoch
Then I would go Alchemist
alchemist atleast has not a 6 hit points and get some armor
the bard would really not survive charging into melee
winter epoch
nope
winter epoch
I would switch some of those around, also why do you make strenght so low if you want to be in melee?
green turtle
because idk how should i use them
winter epoch
maybe just use the pan for cooking and let your bombs do the talking
and maybe a crossbow
green turtle
its ok if im trained in only crafting, survival, lore cooking, diplomacy, deception and intimidation?
winter epoch
yes, no issue with that
green turtle
so, which do you think should be my ability scores?
halflings get an extra one, in exchange of a -2 str
winter epoch
if you don't charge into melee you can keep the one you made up, maybe switch Dex and con, because if you want to hit with ranged weapons higher dex is useful
if you still want to be a melee fighter, that is a diffrent story
green turtle
what alchemist subclass do you think i should use?
i dont know what any of those are about
but i could reflavour the mutagens if they are like the bloodhunter ones
winter epoch
"Subclasses" don't necessarily exist like in 5e, but as an alchemist you have fields of Research
The Bomber specili9zes in throwing bombs, giving you more an edge there
the Chirurgeon is more if you want to be a medical alchemist who provides healing items
Mutagenist enhances your mutagens, which are buff potions
Toxicologist gives you more poisions
green turtle
im between chirurgeon for healing food or mutagenist for buffing food
winter epoch
but i could reflavour the mutagens if they are like the bloodhunter ones
Thats not really a reflavor, they work literally the same
winter epoch
ahhh, gotcha
green turtle
or potions as smoothies
winter epoch
I would suggest healing, because if you want to go full flavor, you do want your meals to be longterm
while mutagens only last like in minutes, healing lasts until someone hurts them again
just my opinoin on that
winter epoch
mhm
green turtle
and my halfling ancestry is hill lock
winter epoch
green turtle
because they eat snacks as a feature
winter epoch
you even get the seasoned feat
green turtle
when someone uses the medicine skill or sleep
winter epoch
you are welcome
I may suggest your character does train in medicine if you want to go that way, but it is not necessary
green turtle
I may suggest your character does train in medicine if you want to go that way, ...
unfortunately it doesnt seem like it works on yurself
you get healed + your level
if someone else does a medicine check
in you
winter epoch
not sure what you are talking about
Treat wounds works just fine on you as much as anyone else
ohhhh I just noticed something
for Chirurgeon
You can use your proficiency rank in Crafting for anything that requires a proficiency rank in Medicine (such as prerequisites), and use your Crafting modifier in place of your Medicine modifier for all Medicine checks.```So you don't need any ranks in Medicine, you can just use your crafting
green turtle
nice
winter epoch
So yeah, you are perfectly set to be a full on healer and suppoerter
be it from elixier or mundane healing
and all within flavor
green turtle
do you think that i should take a dedication in bard?
green turtle
hm
winter epoch
I would take it if there are some neat cantrips you want and the training
beysond that it mostly just gives you more lower level spells and some bard feats
green turtle
i mean guidance and inspirational courage
swift raven
is sacred geometry still a feat in 2e?
green turtle
no idea
winter epoch
is sacred geometry still a feat in 2e?
They overhauled metamagics to fit in the new systems, instead of applying it on spells, you spend an action to use a metamagic and then you cast the spell
swift raven
yeah but that ruins all the fun
winter epoch
it makes sense, I still love pfe1 metamagics, but I can see why they did it
green turtle
i love the pf2 cooking mechanics and their descriptions
btw i have a question, im a chirurgeon alchemist, it says that my research field gives me 2 formulas, alchemy crafting 4 and formula book 2.
so i have 8 formulas at level 1?
and can craft level+int x2 with advance alchemy?
so for daily preparations at level 1 i can craft 10 infused alchemy items and having 8 formulas for them
winter epoch
the 8 sounds right
6 from the class feature which can be anything, chirugeon gives 2 specific ones
green turtle
6 from the class feature which can be anything, chirugeon gives 2 specific ones
ok thanks
btw, planing on playing a bard with cooking lore
should i increase performance, diplomacy, ocultism, or cooking lore?
i want to be centered in cooking
also i have only 14 int
winter epoch
then increase cooking lore
green turtle
would that be a problem with lore?
winter epoch
nope
again, as long as you have proficiency in a skill, you add your level
so your ability score boost will quickly be the smallest boost to it anyway, even when maxed
green turtle
so i will increase performance and cooking lore
winter epoch
sounds absolutly perfect
and you can get up to 3 skills to legendary if you really focus it, how you mix and when yu increase certain skills is up to you
green turtle
here would be the final result
do you think is okay this way?
i wanted to make a lotr bard so i wanted to have at least good wisdom for that strong Will
cooking skill and charisma, low str and con
dex is for, idk, i have a frying pan i wanted to hit more with it
winter epoch
dex is for, idk, i have a frying pan i wanted to hit more with it
though I would not build on that, you have a +2 to hit I would bet with that frying pan. And an average melee combaten has a +7 at that level
I would rather save that up for cooking
green turtle
lotr bard?
lord of the ring
green turtle
though I would not build on that, you have a +2 to hit I would bet with that fry...
i have a +5
winter epoch
how? you have a -1 in strenght
winter epoch
nope
winter epoch
or as a tool of your craft
like you would do 1d4-1 damage with it
winter epoch
looks cool tho
Definitly
also as a quick reminder, the Finesse trait only allows you to use Dex instead of Strenght to hit, you still use strenght for damage when it comes to those weapons
winter epoch
yep, mix and matching maybe depending on the level, but this works well
you are really setting up a support character
if you get into melee, something went wrong
green turtle
should i keep halfling luck
winter epoch
what does that do?
green turtle
or go for the one that makes harder for the enemys to grapple me?
green turtle
what does that do?
once per day, i can reroll a save or check
green turtle
its the racial feat
winter epoch
I mean, it is kind of in the name
green turtle
but then you have 2 more that i really like
intuitive coperation makes so you have +2 to aid checks
and your allies have +2 to aid check to you
(circumstance bonus)
winter epoch
That would work if you have a lot of people which do aid each other
so that would depend on your party synergy
green turtle
the other one is unfettered, that makes fails to grapple you and succed to escape grapple that you make critical instead
and the grapple ability still need to do an athletics check
winter epoch
That might be extremely useful for you
green turtle
That would work if you have a lot of people which do aid each other
so that woul...
it only works on you to others and others to you
not between them
winter epoch
because I will tell you this, if you get grappled and forced to stay in melee, you will very quickly go down
winter epoch
it only works on you to others and others to you
exactly, so depending on what you do and the others, it may never come up, or it may come up a bunch of times
I would say halfling luck and unfettered will always be good
Halfling luck is good always
unfettered is extremely good in specific situation in which you may be screwed
so it really depends on what is more important to you
always a slight boost, or in dire situations a major boost
There I would just go with what you think fits more character, neither is distinctly better
green turtle
i think i will grab halfling luck
just for the memes of rerolling bad cooking checks
as for spells i choose charm and bless
winter epoch
So you are an incredibly good buffer
you know how bless works?
pfe2 changed that spell quite a bit
green turtle
i read that is emanating
but is centered on you?
because i dont want to be in melee
winter epoch
It is essentialy at turn 1 in a 5 foot radius around you, anyone in it, including you gets that buff
each turn, when you sustain it, it increases by 5 more feet
so if you start first, you would have to be behind someone directly to give them benefit, at turn 2 you have much more room
and as lokng as the combat is going, you can just keep increasing it until it encompasses the entire map
or until the spell runs out
winter epoch
As a buffer it is a great spell
just cast it at the start of the combat and it will quickly grow enough to keep going
then cast your focus spell, and you have 2 buffs going in a large area
and charm is great out of combat, because unlike in previous version it doesn't automatically ake the target know that you charmed it afterwards, as long as nothing really weird happend because of it
green turtle
thanks
i think i got everything figured out
it also helps that the bard has legendary will at the earliest level of any class
winter epoch
ohh wait nvm that
I missed something
You maybe should pick something else instead of bless
because your composite spell Inspire Courage does the same but better
bless gives a +1 status bonus on attacks and slowly grows
inspire courage gies a +1 status bonus to attacks rolls, damage rolls and saves against fear and is 60 foot emination from you from the start
and bonuses of the same type don't stack
so yeah y ou already have a better bless, which you can recharge between fights
my bad
green turtle
sleep?
winter epoch
really? from which one?
winter epoch
ahhh
gotcha
well then let me check
So sleep would be an option
there are some others which I couzld suggest
magic weapon is useful before youh ave a striking weapon, once the party has that you would probably switch that spell
protection is uncommon so you need gm permission, but can be incredibly effective if you know you are fighting against specific enemies
and liberating command can get someone else out of a tight spot
green turtle
i cant learn protection at level 1
because its uncommon
so maybe liberating or magic weapon
btw about my cantrips
i have guidance, electric arc, detect magic, musical accompaniment and stabilize
winter epoch
perfect good choices
green turtle
i was actually thinking of change musical accompaniment for prestidigitation
winter epoch
one is more versatile, the other lets you always be a musical
dim spruce
Best improvised actions go!...
winter epoch
Casting Sooth on a glass globe which held a bunch of people in a Demiplane who were quite in a frenzy, Sooth managed to calm one of the people down inside to allow communication
dim spruce
Casting Sooth on a glass globe which held a bunch of people in a Demiplane who w...
Nice
winter epoch
My Gm did not expect this, but he rolled with it, and it gave us a lot of insight on what was going on
green turtle
i want to go an all-out inspiration/mental fortitude build, so i mostly wanted to play bard, but i saw the champion paladin auras.
What should i choose? (Trying to make a samwise-kind of character who principal feat is to inspire and help others)
Also im trying to choose a kind of halfling, im between gutsy and hill lock. and for the ancestry feat lucky or intuitive cooperation
i'm also having a hard time choosing skill feats between diplomats, aditional lore or bon mot.
dim spruce
i want to go an all-out inspiration/mental fortitude build, so i mostly wanted t...
Champion with bard Archetype maybe
winter epoch
A champions playstyle is quite diffrent from a bard, one is support from behind the frontline and unless you go ranged, Champions are the frontline
dim spruce
But with polearm can be front to midline support
winter epoch
Yes, and you have the armor and hp to pull through and the reaction to punish enemies to attack anyone but you within 15 feet
So you will do less buffing support, but you can tank hits and often hinder enemies from hurting allies directly
dim spruce
So you will do less buffing support, but you can tank hits and often hinder enem...
Don't forget the protective reaction
winter epoch
i did not
dim spruce
Thoughts on magitech and firearms and their implementation?
winter epoch
Firearms are very easy, pfe1 and e2 have very primitive firearms, which are hard to maintaine, difficult to use and barely known, so they are not realky worldbuilding shattering, rather tools of some specialists
Magitech you need to be a bit more specific, are we talking Golems or are we talking Starfinder?
dim spruce
Golems
winter epoch
Ahh that is easy, again they are implemented by powerful Realms, esspecially those with Mages in centre of power
dim spruce
Thx
winter epoch
For firearms, look up the City of Alkenstar
for Golems, well there is the Fallen Empire of Jistikan which was very well versed with Golem constructions
It is doable, and as long as you make them special cases, they won't shake up worldsetting as much.
of course the more common they become, the repucssion increase
green turtle
also isnt there a literal gunslinger archetype dedication?
green turtle
yeah
late warren
Are there any pathfinder games open?
dim spruce
Are there any pathfinder games open?
Check lfg
dim spruce
Ngl I'm kinda annoyed by ruleslawyers latest vid abt deceiving players to play pf2e which I kinda don't really like
On this tangent, what if boss resistance was instead them being able to remake a save on their turn and they cannot get a higher failure level. This adds a sort of timer and makes it more interesting than "tge boss crit succeeds and you waste the spell"
sand drum
Deceiving players into player pf2e?
dim spruce
Deceiving players into player pf2e?
Yeah I believe in transparency and ethics
winter epoch
Not sure what you are on that you could lie about playing a TTRPG,
to your tangent, I find it clunky
And what is boring about having a powerful enemy?
dim spruce
Not sure what you are on that you could lie about playing a TTRPG,
to your tang...
It's you should run vs you need to be careful
winter epoch
can you elaborate?
green turtle
can you elaborate?
he's talking about invencible enemies that for plot reasons cant be defeated
and, in the other hand
enemies that are invencible, until you do a certain thing
like for example, bowser in the final fight in paper mario, where you need to use the stars to being able to do damage to him
green turtle
he's talking about invencible enemies that for plot reasons cant be defeated
and this one for another example, is vega from megaman x, in the opening stage.
where you just need him to low your hp enough to zero to come
winter epoch
Ahhh gotcha
well if you want an enemy which the party simply can't defeat, in pfe2 that is very easy
you just have to give the badguy not a reason to attack back, because any creature with a CR high enough to be essentially immune, would wipe them with little effort
So it is very doable, just you should give the monster then not a reason to just go kill the party, because they will be able to do so
green turtle
Like for example being the father of one of the party members
one of my dm's did that once in a space campaing, make'd us fight the other player.. at the end my character said "fuck u for no explicit reason" shot a laser and put a vacum hole in the spaceship
funny enough everyone survived except an npc, and the boss
green turtle
Damn, i was really excited to play pathfinder 2e, but the magic system fell off my exceptactions to be honest.
Like, not that is bad, is perfectly balanced
but all the spells that i liked are now useless or just not fun enough
or are now in other spell list's.
dim spruce
Damn, i was really excited to play pathfinder 2e, but the magic system fell off...
People gonna give him that one dedication feat
green turtle
uhm?
dim spruce
or are now in other spell list's.
I get it. Honestly while the 4 spell lists seem cool and all but they kinda take away class flavour in a way like wizards should have a larger spell list since they have to study stuff or something
dim spruce
but all the spells that i liked are now useless or just not fun enough
Crit successes?
green turtle
its not just crit succes, i really loved just silly and funny spells
i loved to create mundane things in the momento that you could need as the creation bard or just the creation spell.
animate objects, ottos irresistible dance, maybe even feather fall was a bit more funny, i understand why there are no teleportation spells tho they fixed too much things.
even if they were just nerfed i would still like them, if they were still funny
animate objects takes a day and another person to cast, ottos dance is no more, no creation spells (except for wood at level 4 i guess, and water)
dim spruce
its not just crit succes, i really loved just silly and funny spells
i loved to ...
So you want funny spells that aren't being represented?
I feel ya
green turtle
i saw it deeper when i wanted to make a character based on wander over yonder, yeah a little too silly but you get the idea
dim spruce
animate objects takes a day and another person to cast, ottos dance is no more, ...
Could have made something as small as make a handful of sand but nooooo, balance would be chosen over fun sometimes
green turtle
magic hat that creates nonmagical objetcs, feather fall, a banjo, inspire others.
dim spruce
i saw it deeper when i wanted to make a character based on wander over yonder, ...
Sometimes ppl just want a comedy, instead they get soap opera
green turtle
even prestidigitation, i guess its still some funny effects
dim spruce
even prestidigitation, i guess its still some funny effects
I'd recommend dcc for funny games, pf2e for serious games, shadowdark for gritty games
Dnd for broken shenanigans
green turtle
yeah
winter epoch
Indeed, if the system is not fun for you, don't play it
I personally like the system because they balanced the Magic system, and it is still impactful and useful. Magic is cruicial, just not the only cruicial thing in game
winter epoch
I would still suggest to give it a shot, but yeah pathfinders focus is not about silly, but Great Combat mechanics, Solid Exploration, with some Social mechanics
What I love the most is the modularity of character creation and progression
dim spruce
I would still suggest to give it a shot, but yeah pathfinders focus is not about...
Pf for good old epicness and tge character creation is quire exciting though you do need to use apps like pathbuilder simply due to the complexity and terrible character sheets
winter epoch
I disaggree on you needing it, but I won't argue its usefulness
dim spruce
Can help? Want to build an inventor with magus/witch archetype who had to make an eldritch pact to gain the knowledge to build their innovation
Yet he hates this fact and feels guilt for "cheating"
winter epoch
Which of the dedications would you rather go, witch or Magus?
dim spruce
Which of the dedications would you rather go, witch or Magus?
I guess Witch
Any advice?
winter epoch
Well for the flavor you have some patron options,
But to give more advise, what do you want your character to do? want to go Armor inventor, weapon inventor?
Picking spells to assisst either defense or attacks woukd be helpful, afterall your inventor should have a good intelligence, yes?
dim spruce
Well for the flavor you have some patron options,
But to give more advise, what...
Thx I think a weapon inventor with the fate or rune patron would work
winter epoch
Gotcha
dim spruce
Cackle as a class feature, yes or no?
green turtle
Whats that
dim spruce
A witch feat
dim spruce
It's a free action to sustain a spell
dim spruce
Maybe
dim spruce
BTW which is better in your opinion for inventor main multiclassing, fate or rune patron?
winter epoch
For a weapon inventor, definitly rune, both mechanical and Story wise
Thatthen again, if you don't get the Hex nor the granted spell automatically, it has less of an obvious impact
dim spruce
Alr thx
Am thinking of having an owl familiar, a reference for those demonologists out there
dim spruce
Also advice for making it a ranged inventor?
winter epoch
I mean, not anything special, though I don't know of the functions of the Inventor with ranged weapons
dim spruce
Tbh despite the opportunity for inventors, the ranged modifications are kinda meh
dim spruce
I honestly think bows are op compared to crossbow brethren due to the importance of the action economy
winter epoch
Hence why most crossbows are simple weapons
and most bows are martial if not advanced weapons
So that is by design
dim spruce
Yeah ig, still kinda sad the only really good crossbows are in tge hands of gunslinger
winter epoch
You forgot ranger who can make some very powerful shots with simple crossbows
And I do like they give the option to play a gunslinger if you don't like the idea of Firearms, also reminds of the old Bolt Ace Archetype
dim spruce
Tru, though people may be turned off by the name. Perhaps it could ve renamed to Triggerman or something in the rework. Am disappointed by lack of crossbow power in magus tho
winter epoch
Ehh, Triggerman would just be meaningless
and why do you want Magus to use crossbows? they are literally martial characters, give them a bow
dim spruce
I like crossbows lol
winter epoch
Well then you have 2 classes which can make great use of them
dim spruce
Yeah, disappointing inventor wasn't made to be better with crossbows or firearms than bows though. Its a cool Archetype but I guess the alchemical ammunition feats in gunslinger could be considered enough.
winter epoch
It really depends what you want
Like you already have a class all about complex ranged weapons and use them to their best in the same book, so the Inventor doesn't need to fill out that niche
dim spruce
I guess so, spellshot multiclassing is one of my favs, one of the more flexible martial builds in my opinion actually
winter epoch
it is very good
dim spruce
I'm actually confused why thaumaturge doesn't have spellcasting in the base class when it literally means magician
winter epoch
Why?
I mean the Thaumaturge literally uses magical tricks and knowladge to get an edge
dim spruce
_magic_ian
winter epoch
yes, exactly
dim spruce
Well, at least it's quite popular
winter epoch
it is a diffrent take on a hunter, instead a rangers martial prowess and experience (and optional magic) you are a magical hunter with supernatural capabilities and tools
like you can literally have an everfilling cup of healing, a magical weapon that is magical because it is a sign of war, can create illusions which are real
dim spruce
So exorcist / Belmont / witcher?
winter epoch
that kind of vibe yes
you have symbolic weaponry and a bunch of esoteric tools, reliqiuans, parts of spellscrolls etc, to fight against all kind of enemies, be it natural or supernatural
dim spruce
Cool, it's kinda sad we don't get the choice to use Intelligence instead of Charisma tho
winter epoch
why do you think that?
dim spruce
Intelligence is knowledge of magic, wisdom is belief in magic and Charisma is spiritual connection with magic
winter epoch
Yes, so exactly why is this an issue with Thaumaturge, who literally weaponize symbology, belief, faith, superstition etc.?
and even get a free knowladge which uses charisma ontop of that
and ontop of thatm they still get all the knowladge, trained in all magical Tradition Skills and get free upgrades
dim spruce
what would a wisdom based thaumaturge look like, you mentioned belief and faith
winter epoch
I mean, it would mean they would be even better at will saves which may require things to shift around, also it would make Divine Disharmony less viable because it uses intimidation or Deceptions and well the Regelia Implement would be less likely be picked, those would be the first changes coming to my mind
I have to say I really like this Iconic Encounter
dim spruce
I don't get why alchemy isn't magic, to me it's like squeezing magic out of the ingredients
winter epoch
In Pathfinder, Alchemy is definitly magic
There are some alchemical tools you can argue are mundane, like smokesticks
but most of it is definitly magical
dim spruce
there should be an alchemy based caster, like an apothecary or something
or an inventor innovation
winter epoch
Alchemist
dim spruce
ik but if alchemy is a form of magic why is there no alchemy based spellcaster
alchemist is a more alchemy based martial
and a weak one at that
winter epoch
Alchemy is about crafting alchemical items, I am not sure what you want with an "alchemical caster" like the magic was caused by an alchemical experiment? That you are a wizard but instead of carrying spellbooks, you just make and drink potions in the morning?
dim spruce
perhaps they draw magic from alchemical components
they could even tap into the esoteric aspects of alchemy
imagine an alchemical witch patron
ala full metal alchemist
winter epoch
Have you heard of Baba Yaga?
winter epoch
She is many things, if you want enchanted items and witchbrews, she is your patron
dim spruce
ig, sad shes not a common patron. there should be some kind of creator patron for witches who want those things
winter epoch
What stops you? What your patron wants is up to you and the GM
dim spruce
imagine if that ideal patron instead used anethemas and stuff
but actually gms may not allow baba yaga so there isnt much patron options for creation witches
winter epoch
Any GM can not allow anything, so that says little
And well that is the Crux of patrons and witches, they are not deities and clerics
whatecer the deal is, is of the Patrons design
Also you can just make a Cleric with the Right domain
winter epoch
Exactly why I suggest that
dim spruce
welp, the new witch better be good
winter epoch
Archivist? Are we talking pfe1 bard archetype or?
dim spruce
the class
dim spruce
its something from the older editions, a more wizardly divine caster
winter epoch
ohh, you are going 3.5 D&D
dim spruce
ive been imersed in the old ways lol
green turtle
Hellooooo! beautiful people!
im making a bard clown (8 strenght i cant have armor like you cant have shit in detroid) and i wanted to ask
which stat would you priorize
Wisdom, or dexterity?
one will become 16 and the other 14, its not that big of a difference
winter epoch
Pfe1 or pfe2 first off
to the wisdom or dex question, do you want the character to rather do tricks and jump around or be witty and perceptive?
green turtle
pf2e
green turtle
Pfe1 or pfe2 first off
to the wisdom or dex question, do you want the character ...
a jester
XD
winter epoch
That doesn't change my question
as you said it is not a huge thing, but do you want a slightly more acrobatic and swift Jester or someone who is witty and perceptive
Being a Jester can take diffrent forms
dim spruce
Agreed they may even want to invest in Intelligence for the smart humor
winter epoch
Then flip a coin
green turtle
i grabbed prestidigitation, bon mot and have demoralize in the corner, illusry object/command
grabbed blocks, lock, luckless dice, marked playing cards and predictable silver coin
and 3 dagger to jugglin with them
oh and a lot of balls
what else do you think would be perfect for a clown?/jester
still deciding what dedication to grab
im between acrobat and swashbuckler
i think i will go with swashbuckler and add acrobat later
winter epoch
I would go just acrobat
swashbuckler is more dangerous fighting
reckless fighting
acrobat is all about quickly moving, which if you do that, go dex
green turtle
acrobat is all about quickly moving, which if you do that, go dex
yeah, but it hurts not having one for all
i wanted to make a really good support
winter epoch
one for all?
I mean you are a bard, that is the best support
like you play the support caster
green turtle
yeah but the combo
inspire courage + one for all
+3 to attaacks
i was thinking of grabbing swashbuckler for one for all, and at level 4 change inspire competence for acrobat dedication
winter epoch
what bonus does one for all give?
Ahh, you are reading an aid action
Well sounds like a plan
green turtle
i sent him the character sheet yesterday and he is connected almost all the time but doesnt respond
i hope its not like all the other times where they already found a player but dont reply or say that they did anymore
thats a little anoying and keeps happening to me
dim spruce
Sry man
winter epoch
Keep trying and you will find a group
winter epoch
Wish you good luck
dim spruce
I'll cast the actual wish spell
winter epoch
So I am struggling between two classes for this concept:
A bookkeeper who became employee of a Crimelord as well an accountant for the public side and once he knew what he was actually working with, he was too deep in
So one day he ledt a giant pile of evidence with the Guards and left his old life behind
I could either go Rogue Mastermind, showing him more adapting to the cutthroat underworld he found himself in
Or as an Investigator who learned to spot details, to avoid such future entanglements
any suggestions?
swift raven
why would he
A: become a rogue mastermind?
B: become an investigator?
winter epoch
As I mentioned at the end,
the first would be him being caught in the Underworld enough to pick up tricks
the 2: is less adapring but learning to be more cautious, during and after his work as a Bookkeeper for a Crimelord
both cover the intelligent, mundanly skilled person I want, just taken in different direction
If I were to go Investigator, probably going Empiricism Methodology
swift raven
i vibe more with the investigator tbh
makes more sense too
you're a bookkeeper and you want to get out of your situation
so you read through the books, find all the stuff that looks especially bad
and make sure that stands out to the guards
then you go on a long vacation to your family that lives out in the middle of nowhere
and when you come back, your boss is mysteriously gone
winter epoch
I completly aggree on everything except the end
my character escaped, knowing he has Essential made enemies with someone very powerful and did not stuck around to find out
swift raven
i know but like
swift raven
it makes more sense for a bookkeeper to become somebody with great attention to detail
because
well
that's your job
winter epoch
Exactly
mastermind fills a similiar role, but mistly to recall knowladge on enemies to get them Flatfooted
to well sneak attack
so thanks, I think I do will stick with Investigator for this concept
swift raven
and unless you were a bookkeeper for a black market zoologist, you wouldn't really have had any way to learn how to spot those things
winter epoch
Well there is still free room ob that and society works for humanoids
swift raven
of course, of course
winter epoch
Though I had another weird idea for this character which is technicaly optional, but would make it more complicated
winter epoch
The Crimeboss had dealings with a Hag, which my character found out, and made a deal with her.
He would give through his work something the hags want from the Crimeboss and she would change his face
The Gah probably did something very fun with a desperate request like that
it is not necessary for the backstory though
swift raven
Gah
swift raven
it makes for interesting back story for sure
winter epoch
Thanks
also gives the Gm two Potential villains from a low lvl character
would also give me an excuse to pull out an image like this
my character wasn't specific enough on HOW he should look diffrent
swift raven
every god i've ever come up with was a trickster in some way
and if the request of "a new face" was given to one of my gods, with no specifications
you'd just have a 3 dollar spirit halloween plastic mask on your face you can't take off
winter epoch
Your mortals must be extremely paranoid, if every Deity tries to screw with them
winter epoch
That doesn't help
Either way, so you approve of that notion as well? the very obvious new face getting more attention rather then help him slip away?
Seemed like something a hag would find amusing
swift raven
yeah, i like that
winter epoch
swift raven
what i meant is that the gods are kinda... forgotten? so there's a few cults here and there that still worship them, but those are either looked down upon or they stay hiddden. Whenever a person from outside the cults try and ask for a favor from the gods, while it is their duty to help, it is also understandable they aren't the most likely to, you know, not fuck with you
winter epoch
Okay that is less being tricksters and more being spiteful
which for gods makes complet sense
swift raven
i call them tricksters because it's less "Oh, you want help in love? the woman of your dreams now loves you so much that she will kill anybody who she thinks is trying to take her away from you" and more "Oh, you want help in love? the old hag upstairs wants to get jiggy with you, on a regular basis"
winter epoch
Would they do that even if they were not shunned and forgotten? thats more my point
swift raven
depends on what day of the week it is
winter epoch
but now I have looked more inzo investigator, it is funny, with the right feat, you can use intelligence instead of strenght for a bunch of manuveurs
winter epoch
@vague fjord also if you want to talk about pfe2 with others, this is also this channel for it
dim spruce
I honestly wonder how a version of pf where free archetype is in the base rules would work, maybe something similar to prestige classes where subclasses are tied to archetype feats
winter epoch
I mean, free archetypes are in the base rules as an option, so we are already there
though I am not sure what subclasses you are refering to
dim spruce
Like you get class feats and Archetype feats, Archetype feats are spent on either archetypes or subclass focused feats
dim spruce
It's an idea I thought of
Essentially it replaces subclass features with Archetypes
Would such a change fit the system?
winter epoch
I repeat: What subclasses? are you talking about The specializations, like the Witches patron or the Gunslingers way? are those your "subclasses"?
Because if you are talking that, well Fighters don't have anything to replace
and for some those are less vital, like a druid doesn't get as much from tgeir order, while Rogues entire playstyle can rely on their Rackets
so milage would vary
dim spruce
Fighters and monks not having subclasses is a missed opportunity
BTW, I'm talking a pf homebrew idea
winter epoch
I mean for both it is unnecessary
Fighters and monks specialize in the ways how tgey fight
They get the most powerful feats in the ways how they fight
followed by Barbarian
dim spruce
But barb has subclasses, fighter could focus on martial archetypes like cavalier or something
winter epoch
No, they have instincts
And fighters focus on what to specialize, be it onehanded, sword and board, etc
also you also were pointing out that fighters +2 to hit was too powerful
so what would that mean if they get even more features ontop of that?
dim spruce
Gunslinger ways, inventor innovations, they're all just names for subclasses. Fighter could be nerfed to +1 and it would still be strong enough
Ig I just like consistency
winter epoch
Gunslinger ways, inventor innovations, they're all just names for subclasses. Fi...
those are so vastly diffrent from each other, calling tgwm subclasses doesn't make them equal
hence they are not called that
dim spruce
Are they specialisations in a class? If so then that's a subclass to me. I get that they are unequal in what they give. Now I'm thinking about adnd 2e class handbooks which came with class variants
winter epoch
Fair, I see people enjoy free archetypes when given and thst is perfect
and you mentioned prestige classes, but archetype also fill that niche of specialization
in a diffrent way of course, but for the concept of a character it works
dim spruce
Man, my osr self is making my appreciate simpler games with no subclasses lol
winter epoch
and thats fine
Pathfinder is called Mathfinder for a reason
E2 is definitly more streamlined but still has a lot
dim spruce
Yeah, I get the appreciation for hard rules. Osr can be easy to learn but low rate if mastery while pf can be hard to learn but high mastery
winter epoch
What I appriciated is, that a lormt of concepts I can make up, I can probably can reflect in mechanics
Psionic wielding abomination in goblin form who can Manipulate time? Reflection Heritage Goblin Psychic with Time Mage dedication
Paladin of Kindness worshippibg ancient Fey Creatures? Redeemer Champion hunan going down zhe Fey Ancestry featline
Thats why I like pathfinder
dim spruce
Nice, good for u. Meanwhile osr tends to use flexible flavour instead of building more mechanics for such concepts, goblins could be a modified halfing and paladins are martial focused clerics as intended in the first edition
That's why I like osr, but I understand the comfort of specific rules
winter epoch
Also it actually makes a character be not only Special in flavor but also actual ability
When I give my character an ability which I specifically found for them, fitting their concept, it is great to use it
zenith stump
casting Thanatopic Enervation on undead sounds hilarious
“you thought you were immune to negative levels? well think again!”
winter epoch
absolutly aggree
"I will make you feel terrible, I doN't care if you are already dead."
sand drum
Bypassing immunities will never not be funny.
zenith stump
unless you’re an enchantment wizard because of all the metamagic options you need to consider
“what do you mean a third if not more of the bestiary is immune to my spells by default?!”
*funny when it works tho
zenith stump
which is why threnodic spell + feeblemind is hilarious
undead fail the will save? suddenly their CHA score (and INT) is 1
and they use CHA to determine HP 🤣
I also think it would be funny to drop confusion on a zombie horde
ngl kind of hate the prerequisite is spell focus (necromancy) instead of spell focus (enchantment)
I suppose that’s what metamagic rods are for
sand drum
undead fail the will save? suddenly their CHA score (and INT) is 1
That's hilarious and I love how effective it is.
zenith stump
I discovered that barbarian's scent rage power can be useful in combat
Scent (Ex) (PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 33): The barbarian gains the scent ability while raging and can use this ability to locate unseen foes (see Special Abilities for rules on the scent ability).```how you may ask?
its because these exist
https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Arrow (pheromone)
Any creature with the scent ability gains a +2 circumstance bonus on attack and damage rolls against a target marked with a pheromone arrow. This effect lasts for 1 hour or until the target spends 1 minute washing it off.```
assuming you're not playing a barbarian archer, you could prolly bribe another PC in your group to use thesespeaking of bowbarian
thoughts on human barbarian 3/fighter 2/sanguine angel 2?
has enough room for feat wise to pick up point blank shot, precise shot and rapid shot & qualify for sanguine angel
main reason for sanguine angel is this
Furious Huntress: The sanguine angel adds her Strength bonus, rather than her Dexterity bonus, to attack rolls made with bows.```archetype for barbarian could prolly be primal hunter
modifies rage to be even better with bows (and keeps the str increase as far as I am aware)
Focused Rage (Ex): While raging, a primal hunter gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls with ranged weapons. This bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and to +4 at 20th level. While raging, a primal hunter can attempt Stealth checks but doesn’t gain a morale bonus on Will saves. This ability alters rage.```Can't be done. Barbarians cannot be lawful, and Sanquine Angels have to be lawful.
sand drum
So I did. Objection withdrawn.
zenith stump
also you could pick up the scent rage power & buy pheromone arrows
hit a target w/ 1 and now you have a +2 circumstance bonus on attack and damage rolls against them for an hour well until your rage ends (or until they spend a minute washing it off but good luck doing that during combat)
alternatively you could pick up the reckless abandon rage power because ideally you would pick up deadly aim at lvl 7
Reckless Abandon (Ex) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 76): While raging, the barbarian can take a –1 penalty to AC to gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls. The AC penalty increases by –1 and the attack roll bonus increases by +1 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.```these seem useful