Initial thoughts on flying the T18 after the v0.45.0 flight model change.

[nova escarp]

Its buns.

Further, below 100kts the aircraft loses control response (especially rudder) in an unengaging fashion, simply freezing in whatever the current attitude happens to be. Previously the T18 would simply become very sluggish, slowly yawing around as commanded. (which should also cause roll in the same direction, but I'll let Baha pay for the superchat to Growler Jams to believe it...)

I seems to me that the aircraft is now able to get to a lower airspeed as intended by the changes. But the fact that the you cannot exert any influence over aircraft direction at those speeds just removes much of the post stall fighting ability.

[prime iris]

will be adding clips to my post as wellhttps://discord.com/channels/319915885575798785/1445592696130637906

[nova escarp]

Oh yeah, also the AoA button "bouncing" the nose off of 80 aoa feels messed up.

I'm very impressed with the way the T16 flies now though!

[dreamy yoke]

how did the change it? I couldnt get a hang of it in the like 4 rounds I did

[steady meadow]

it performs way better in the vert 2 circle than it did before mainly, along with improved energy retention from the buff that affected every jet

[dreamy yoke]

I know the rate speed is lower, but can it lock into 2 circles still?

not saying that verts are bad but just wondering how it performs with the slower rate

[steady meadow]

idk 2 circle flat is lame as hell so I didn't care to look at it

[shell marlin]

unless ur pitched up pretty high you just full pull at all times

but they are all kinda like that now, i really miss the fms that punished you for that

[steady meadow]

yeah I did kinda like having to manage my speed a tad more

[tidal sentinel]

i think baha should revert the drag changes and tweak the t-16's thrust

[nova escarp]

its not a dramatic change, but @steep spire in the T16 was dunking on my T18 in the vertical. He was much more able to punish my desire to hold the AoA button and circle cut like a maniac. So i finally saw how the 16 gun works lmao

Provided the T16 pilot respects the lack of elevator authority at high and low speeds, they can actually play the game now.

[vapid arrow]

I havent done much with the t18 when it comes to fighting a good 16 or 15 player yet but i do think the flight model feels a bit nicer than before

[nova escarp]

yeah when there is air actually going over the wings it is marginally better

[slender turret]

Ouch.

[vapid arrow]

Im talking about after the flight model changes 😭

[slender turret]

Haha ik lol

[prime iris]

i have posted clips in my post

[steep hornet]

From a primarily 18 player perspective, the 18 is able to really give the 16 a run for its money, the 18 can pin it to the 24 aoa limiter and GAIN speed in a dive, holding 20deg/sec for like 20 seconds if it continues a downward spiral. I still think the 18 could use a low speed TWR bump, but the balance hasn't shifted much imo

the PID issues are just hurting the 18 in the fleeting moments it wants to capitalize on

all of the biggest gripes most of us have are directly just PID tuning gremlins

barring those as easy enough to fix, changes overall are a huge W

[prime iris]

The way I look at it the performance was fine with the less induced drag, the part I care about (for obvious reason) is the funny button and pulling snapshots.

Whatever was changed before the beta was closed just made that specific aspect of it very unsatisfying.

If yall are able to iron that out and make it feel smooth to do it could be in a really good spot.

[nova escarp]

I think the 18 is all about trading energy, and for that reason I don't really care for buffing the high AoA rate. I think that the ability to slow down so fast is actually a benefit to the 1 circle niche and changing that erodes the identity of the aircraft. Even if it might be slightly more competitive in other areas.

[prime iris]

So.. what you are saying is..
Vfm needs more cobra?

[steep hornet]

I agree, I don't think the change at the end of thr beta is intended be the final version, baha took a swing at a big change to see if it would stick at a fundamental level, and tunability like high aoa drag and stability can be looked at in refinement

95% of the impact of the drag change is positive imo, and the 5% is tunable

I'm frankly suprised it didn't break more. some of the big changes from pre alpha really upset balance

[vapid arrow]

same tbh. i was expecting the balance to be all over the place after that

[prime iris]

Yeah unfortunate the last time we get to play until release and the T-18 is borked on AoA 😭

[steep hornet]

barring a couple gripes I liked the end beta 18 a lot more

[steep spire]

those problems really wont be hard to iron out

[vapid arrow]

i flew the T18 a decent bit yesterday. the T18 felt better overall

[steep spire]

(hopefully)

[steep spire]

yeah

[prime iris]

The energy and all that wasn't the issue I was having personally, it was the interaction of the AoA button. Which is what I care about for obvious reasons.

As well as what Danny has pointed out here.

[steep hornet]

fwiw these are my thoughts:

my prelim feedback after about 2h of testing all of the jets after the drag changes (ignoring the issues highlighted above)

• 16
  MUCH better. The 16 can be super aggro now, and actually have a flexible playstyle, which is great. Can gain and cash energy much more efficiently, and just feels like a light fighter again. I want the rest of the FM to be balanced around this.

• 15
  Feels fine, about the same as before, nothing really changed. It stylistically changed a bit bc its not the king of the vertical fight anymore bc the 16 can share it now, but its still asymmetric bc the 15s overall power and speed lets to be faster and create offsets. Could maybe use some slight help at some point but for now its fine.

• 18
  Feels really good, its definitely "different" than before, but with the 15 and 16 fighting slower and closer, its a lot easier to force reversals over the top. The only thing i think the 18 really needs is a bit more engine power on the low end still (0.1-0.35 Mach) because when the 18 goes for high reversals, having a little more oomph to dig itself out of the stall would be really helpful, as well as the benefit of making it own the scissors a bit more. The 15 and 16 can both take the 18 1C now and have a pretty even fight, which i think it should be competitive but its not clearly favoring the 18 as i think it should.

edit: oh and increasing the 18s 60aoa+ drag by like 50%

[prime iris]

🤨

Ur saying to up the high aoa drag so it slows more 🤔

[steep spire]

I personally dont think the 18 needs more high aoa drag

[steep hornet]

this is ignoring the PID issue btw

[steep spire]

it can already slow fine, and adding more drag would make it feel worse imo

[prime iris]

Yeah, thats the part im 🤨 about

[steep hornet]

before it got a lot of its high aoa drag by the induced drag. which was reduced so it floats and drifts a bit too much

it can't float like it probably should, and using cobra hard pulls to reverse over the top slowing you more or for jinks would help

[steep spire]

I think when a "soft cap" on the aoa is introduced it will make the nose hang a bit more and everything would be fine

[steep hornet]

I think its worth at least testing

[steep spire]

yed

[prime iris]

Either way, upon release I will be double checking your work 😒

[steep hornet]

I don't like that the 16 and 15 are so comfortable with it 1C. being in a scissor with an 18 should give you the same "i shouldn't be here" that being stuck in a 2C with a 16 gives

[prime iris]

Tbh I was surprised it felt as good as it did for most of the beta

[steep spire]

i think this is just how you were playing it

[prime iris]

16 being a NASCAR machine was kinda an issue tho so I see why it was wanted to be changed

[steep spire]

i did alot of 15 and 18 v styx 16 and it felt great in 2 and 1 c

then i did me in 15 and danny in 18 and he was once again still able to punish in 1c (when he didnt just aoa stick back the whole fight)

[prime iris]

I think the change was fine, i was too heavy on burner and not using thr brake as much as I should have been, it was just the aoa bouncing and low speed with no control that made it feel bad.

Couldn't get over the fact the slow speed was so buns compared to earlier but the rest felt fine

[steep hornet]

ill need to play against some more people to be sure, I just keep feeling like in scissors with the 16 and 15, both other jets having higer TWR at those 100-250kt speeds gives them the ability to leave the 18 either stalled or giving up angles, and they can extend vertically and smoke the 18 on the way down in a compromised position, but when they're on the bottom of the loop they immediately have the engine power to start powering out of it

putting the LV behind them and doing everything i can right to keep the circle small and not stall

Needs more testing, but I think at a minimum some engine boost could help

[glad ferry]

What are your thoughts with the 15v16 fight going forward, under the current changes?

I fear the 15 wont be able to keep up with the 16 if its sharing the vertical domain. Outside of trying to cut the circle, which i've already seen is hard to capture (might be a skill issue, also pre update experience) its only option is to create offsets, which tend to be risky, headon-inducing maneuvers.

keep in mind i wasnt able to play the new update

[steep hornet]

I didnt get a ton of time in the 15v16 testing, but the very prelim feedback is that the 16 can compete up in the vertical fight now, which stylistically changes how 15v16 fights will behave. Theres an asymmetry of the 15 having huge engines still and being able to out-accelerate the 16, and because all of the peak rate speeds got lower the 15 can build its speed and cash in much more rapid cycles. The 16 now has a much higher peak rate vs the 15, but the asymmetry allows the 15 to boost to offsets, cash in the energy it built up extending and misalign the circles pretty efficiently. and the 15 can do this at any aspect (vert/horizontal/45deg) which gives it a lot of flexibility

the other guys can feel free to correct me tho

Most of my testing is concerning the 18vX becuase im one of few avid 18 players in testing so i try to focus more on that side

[glad ferry]

i see

[steep spire]

So i think the 16 is maybe a little bit too good in the vert 2 circle, so the 15 could be buffed slightly there to match its performance. Other than that, the 15 is better at forcing rollers from the vert and winning that way by tightening the circle over time

[steep hornet]

i think baha could probably lower its TWR at 450kt+ to help it bleed speed a bit harder to punish it on the verts

[dreamy yoke]

Did the lower rate speeds allow the 16 to compete vertically because the rate band is now at the lower speeds you get at the top of a vertical?

[steep spire]

lower whose twr?

[steep hornet]

the lower drag punishes it much less for pulling into the vert

[steep spire]

we want to buff the planes, not nerf them again

[steep hornet]

the 16s

[prime iris]

So buff 15 and maybe more engine power for 18 so it can pull out of stalls better

[steep hornet]

to make it a little less "too good" in the vert

[dreamy yoke]

oh I forgot about the drag reductions

[glad ferry]

lower drag, and to an extent yes

[steep hornet]

since we can adjust TWR dynamically at an engine efficiency by speed level, lowering the 16 could probably just lose a bit of high speed efficiency at speeds above its peak rate to punish it a bit when climbing

[steep spire]

i think the 16 is in a pretty perfect spot, so nerfing it probably isnt the play

especially if we want to drive the circles closer together, nerfing is not the way to do this

[steep hornet]

if its too good in the vert wouldnt you want that tuned in?

[steep spire]

because that also hurts its general 1c performance at those speeds

[prime iris]

Buff the others over nerfing the 16?

[steep spire]

yes

as the problems so far have been:

• too hard for newer players
• drag and low twr feels bad for alot of people

[steep hornet]

i think the easy answer to the 18 catching up is the low speed twr increase to bump its acceleration at the 0.1-0.35 mach, but the 15 i have no idea what you would do

[prime iris]

Low speed TWR boost would be nice for 18

That way you can recover faster from aoa nonsense

[steep hornet]

over anything else thats what i want for the 18 in the current state

it could even just be the 0.1-0.2 mach window

just a bit of a boost

[prime iris]

Might even give it a bit of a climb in a nose up stall

[tidal sentinel]

t-18 def needs low speed twr increase, it feels very slow at its rate speeds

[dreamy yoke]

Im just hoping with the changes that this doesnt turn into vtols vertical merge meta stuff

[tidal sentinel]

wdym by vertical merge?

[dreamy yoke]

I'd like horizontal to still be playable

[steep hornet]

nah i dont think you need to worry about that

[dreamy yoke]

as boring as it can be

[dreamy yoke]

In vtol, the only optimal merge is going vertical

[tidal sentinel]

oh

[prime iris]

I believe it is, its just the 16 isnt 100% dedicated to Nascar rate anymore

[dreamy yoke]

The majority of the time*

[eager bough]

In my humble opinion, i've not benchmarked the new jets against each other so idk what needs change nor how to change it.
End of opinion 🗿

[tidal sentinel]

isn't that just because vertical merges are better becase you can abuse the tactical egg

[prime iris]

Still the rate fighter but not just hold 500 knots and nascar

Would have loved more time to test such drastic changes

[steep hornet]

even after the changes, general TWR and lift is so low that you cant do the VTOL-style super tight merges. The only fights I had that even remotely resembled this was 18v18 when we both aoa button lead turned into eachother (which was peak)

and energy is still extremely important, merging splitS or horizontal is still very valuable

[prime iris]

Yeah 18v18 stall fights are hilarious and felt good until v0.45.0

[steep hornet]

looking past the PID issues, its overall a lot better

[glad ferry]

what is PID. the aoa bouncing?

[steep hornet]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1405187647101472819/1445657483824857138/16v18gaming.mp4?ex=693124f3&is=692fd373&hm=2fadb2cef9cf084a9396a3c193949f6440b02837a4f6e927bf20f434195df3e5&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1405187647101472819/1445654310515118201/16v18new.mp4?ex=693121fe&is=692fd07e&hm=a66e50b32761030ea27c0f55fc6148850ce83f1be94ebd97b40773b8052248cf&

these clips showcase pretty well how aggressive both jets can be now and still have good energy

[steep hornet]

i forget the acronym definition, but its basically the definitions and limitations of the flight model. more or less its the FCS/Flight Assist and how well it supports the jet

[prime iris]

When are these from?

What update

[steep hornet]

last night

[prime iris]

😭

Ain't no way yall putting me on blast like that in the first clip

[steep hornet]

sorry homie

[glad ferry]

wait thats u flyin??

[prime iris]

No just in the background speaking

[steep hornet]

was vs viper in the canyons clip, and sneezy in the other

[prime iris]

Look at my post herehttps://discord.com/channels/319915885575798785/1445592696130637906
The clips show the issue

[prime iris]

Nah fr tho my problem was never the drag it was the aoa

However it ends up in release, words will be said

[steep hornet]

im pretty confident with some tuning we'll get it feeling really good

[dreamy yoke]

Proportional integral and derivative

[languid lichen]

(Sorry if this is considered a necro post or sth) a PID is a controller of sorts. It has a target value and current value. Its goal is to make the current value the same as the target value. You subtract those two to get an error, and the output of the controller is :
-the the error multiplied by a constant (aka the Proportional part)
-the integral of the error multiplied by a constant (sum of all the errors over time, aka the Integral part)
-the change of the error multiplied by a constant (aka the Derivative part)
This all is put together in a "PID" controller, which is incredibly good at its job if tuned right, although for stuff like flight control systems there also probably are different additional parts

[glad ferry]

ohhhh

that thing

[prime iris]

Its overcorrecting for hitting the aoa limit and bouncing you

[nova jetty]

i love when my plane feels good 🤤

[tidal sentinel]

the aoa limiter button would be cool if it got rid of all limits instead of just letting me pull a little bit more

i want to rip my wings off at 600 knots after going full deflection like an idiot

[prime iris]

Being the T-55 "Cobra Messiah" at least the way it was when the beta started was really good. Having spent a TON of time in VTOL messing with flight assists off I was surprised at how natural it felt, the plane (T-18) just did what I wanted it to. Sure at slower speeds it was a bit sluggish but thats to be expected.

[tidal sentinel]

i flew the t-18 the least but from my experience in the t-15 using the limiter only made me pull more instantanous and didn't make me stall or seperate from airflow until i reached like 200-300 knots

[prime iris]

The T-18 is the AOA hog

[languid lichen]

i feel thats because of how the t-15 is built (physically). it doesnt strike me as a plane for that sort of thing

[tidal sentinel]

i mean yeah but it has the second best instantaneous ingame

[steep hornet]

the 15s aoa button only increases the aoa bracket from 24 to 35 aoa, its not a massive difference

[prime iris]

18 is like 24 to 70 or 80

[tidal sentinel]

aw boo so it doesn't even remove limits

[steep hornet]

its 24>80

and the 16 is 24>40

[steep hornet]

the only function of the "AoA Delimiter" is to .. well .. delimit the AoA to another threshold

its not flight assist toggle like vtol

[tidal sentinel]

i feel like it should be called the limit raiser instead of the "delimiter" then

[languid lichen]

i was fully expecting it to completely remove the part of the fly by wire that limits your aoa, not just move the threshold

[steep hornet]

Its a balancing/gameplay mechanic to have the different jets have different brackets

[nova jetty]

should be called the paddle

blehhh

[eager bough]

mf calling the cobra button "aoa delimiter"

[prime iris]

Fr, fuckin poser

[steep spire]

it is 😏

[nova escarp]

yeah and once i can actually rudder again at low speed, you are cooked bludski

you miss 100% of the 80 AoA shots you dont take.

[steep hornet]

also + cool points for hitting it

[nova jetty]

snapshots

we call em