RWR Ranging nerf

[mystic lance]

Theres a point where radar contacts get so close that the RWR just perfectly tracks their range to you (i.e ARH missiles), and i feel like making them less accurate in that sense would seriously change the current meta when it comes to gpulling and whatnot, especially considering that there will possibly be a reduction in the "merge shoot meta", which is (hypothetically) really gonna change the way that missiles act at higher speeds

In short the RWR is too precise of an instrument, and additionally, the situational awareness that it gives to 4th gens should only be available to the 5th gens through things like DAS

(It doesn't make any sense at all that the F26, along with all of the other 4th gens, have the same SA in that sense as the F45 and EF24, especially considering that the 5th gens have technologies like DAS, etc)

[mystic lance]

Of course all of the aircraft would have the same RWR (as it is now), im not saying that the 5th gens should still have one that is just as accurate, that'd be nutty

The 5th gens should rely more on their superior technologies like DAS etc

[oblique current]

W

[weak seal]

Don’t understand why people wouldn’t like this but

It’s a direct nerd to the 26 and 55 when it comes to gpulling

[north mango]

get rid of g pulling

[dark plover]

Do they need that though? I feel with the style of vtol not trying to being a full on sim g pulling is perfectly fine

[north mango]

g pulling so easy and reliable in VTOL thought. It’s ridiculous. You legit don’t need to know any of the actual defensive tactics

[dark plover]

Is there a point though? So what if gpulling is the defensive meta in vtol? Do I really need to learn ACTUAL tactics if I don’t want to?

This isn’t dcs super larp it’s go fly plane and kill everything you see

So what if it’s a bit unrealistic

[dark plover]

The amount of people I’ve seen join the ranked server and not even know what a gpull is is surprising

I don’t think it’s too much of a problem when half the game either doesn’t know what it is or don’t know how do it well

[still valve]

This will indirectly nerf other evasion options as well. With an inaccurate rwr, notching and chaffing become harder. Gpulling will still remain as the meta not because of how easy it is to pull off, but the positional advantage it has over other methods. Remaining offensive while defeating missiles is the methods biggest strength. In addition, this makes it far easier for 5th gens to gpull. Removing the 26 from its place as the "a2a Brawler" airframe.

[torn solar]

it's just kinda annoying, some parts of VTOL (the EW especially) are actually modelled in more depth than they are in DCS, a lot of people play this game because of that and it's silly that you can just ignore all of the tactics that make the game fun and you're encouraged to do so

if missiles were more dangerous, fights wouldn't get that much harder but they'd get a lot more interesting

[deft bay]

The other week I was watching a few bvr replays in tacview and it's kinda funny being zoomed out and seeing a dude essentially flying in a straight line with missiles whizzing past them

Like they g-pull in one direction for a second or two then they go along their merry way lmao

[torn solar]

^

[mellow holly]

just hit 16g in the 26 for 0.2s and you are good 🔥

[torn solar]

a lot of people don't know how to g pull but it's only because they don't expect it to work because it doesn't make sense

[still valve]

Ew most certainly has its use even in pvp. Defeating missile without the need to gpull them is much more valuable then gpulling. It saves energy and reduces risk.

[torn solar]

if they knew how vtol's missiles work they'd come up with the idea by themselves immediately

[torn solar]

I know, and I don't mean specifically that g pulling is bad because EW would be better without it, just that generally bvr fights would be more fun if it wasn't "oh that's a missile, lemme just- ok it's fine now"

[north mango]

irl they call it "late stage manoeuvring", g pulling is a real thing, but you wouldn’t bet your life on it, it’s a last resort. I think it should be like that in game too, i think it’s just not fun, not to mention the realism argument

[torn solar]

^^

it should be possible but only viable without a lot of luck against a missile with very little energy left

[still valve]

You aren't risking your life here, so its easier to practice and learn it when you do mess it up. Thats why ignoring hard deck and other sop arent relevant in vtol. There is no stakes

[torn solar]

but also vtol has a weird thing where the missiles' controls compress more than a jet does at high speeds, meaning it's easier to g pull the faster the missile is

which is weird

[north mango]

I think learning and mastering "proper" defense is WAY more rewarding. Defending missiles is the most fun thing in VTOL for me, choosing what tactic(s) to use on a case bu case basis and gettibg good at making that decision is amazing fun. Far more fun than just : wait until missile is in the rwr and pull 16gs, like eww.

[torn solar]

if it was impossible to g pull a missile going mach 3 while you're subsonic but very possible to g pull a missile that's run out of speed it would be more fun and more realistic

or not impossible but very hard and requiring very precise timing

[still valve]

Yes which i agree should be changed as per chases suggestion.

[mellow holly]

nerfing the rwr would just buff the 45

[still valve]

It would turn it into a gpulling god

Which i dont think is the intention of the airframe

[north mango]

it should be the intention of no airframe

[still valve]

And while a matter of opinion, practicing and perfecting my gpulls to defend 16+ missiles is rewarding to me

[north mango]

remove g limiter switch, 9g for every aircraft max, buff missile manoeuvrability

[torn solar]

that's fair, if the speed thing was fixed I'd be more ok with g pulling being easy because at least then you have to crank a couple times to get it to be viable

[still valve]

5th gen pulls would need to be nerfd, bfm would be obliterated

[torn solar]

unfortunately that's just an inherent problem with trying to put bfm in a plane game

the more realistic you make modern air combat, the less relevant bfm becomes

[still valve]

No, i mean bfm needs to g lmit switch

The 26 would lose to every craft other than the 24 and i am unsure for the 55

[north mango]

it’s not like DACM is balanced as is from what i ear

[torn solar]

well if everything's limiter was permanently on they could just adjust everything's corner speed along with it to fix it in favour of 4th gens

[still valve]

Also, more gamey ways would be used/discovered in place of gpulling. Anything that keeps you offensive while defending is massive

[north mango]

well like what ?

[torn solar]

the only thing I can think of that does that is just cranking and pulling hard through the notch at the right time to defeat the missile before immediately turning back in, but that's not gamey at all

[still valve]

I feel the reason why gpulling and other games suffer from unrealistic strategies is because there is no risk of life. So, you would naturally take the option with thr greatest reward and practice it to perfection.

[north mango]

playing with a wingman, one is defensive the other is offensive

that’s the real strat

[dark plover]

cant you still do 5th gen pulls tho

I need to practice it but im sure the 55 can easily do a barrel roll gpull

[still valve]

I should have specified more into the "discovered". 5th gen pulls tho would be my first guess

[north mango]

no because you still don’t want to die, even if you can respawn

[dark plover]

wavelength

[north mango]

wdym 5th gen pulls ?

[dark plover]

5th gens can do a gpull variation

that bypasses the glimiter

[still valve]

But each death is a learning experience. Die more, die less in the future. Iirc gpulling was discovered on accident and wasn't thought to be possible early on (im not 100% on this tho)

In vtol

[torn solar]

it can, but I also want it to be changed so that g pulling is harder when you're slow and the missile is fast than it is the other way around, which would probably remove things like that as a viable tactic anyway

[north mango]

with the ruder right ? that needs removing too off course

[dark plover]

Gpulling is already basically impossible for the 55 below 400

literally just doesnt get above 10g

[north mango]

sure, so die while learning Driving and Dragging, not g pulling

[mellow holly]

last resort at that speed is trying to roll and put max rudder at the last second 🙏

it works sometimes

[dark plover]

but why should I bother doing that when gpulling is the better method that everyone uses

Theres no point in making silly plane game a milsim

[north mango]

well that’s basicly what i want

[dark plover]

then go play dcs

[still valve]

And when a new "gpull" exists, just remove that too once its discovered?

[torn solar]

"they should remove this thing because it makes fights less interesting because everyone uses it"
"but that thing is better and everyone uses it"

[north mango]

no because it don’t work in VR

[north mango]

if it exists

[torn solar]

dcs has less realistic radar and EW modelling than vtol though

[dark plover]

womp womp

go get them to change it

[torn solar]

why would I do that

[dark plover]

You're doing it here

why not in dcs?

[north mango]

VTOL was created because existing sims don’t work in VR, it wasn’t created to be a silly plane game

[dark plover]

I would argue vtol isnt fully in the milsim genre tho

it is unrealistic

[still valve]

I find notching and those methods to be boring however. In the same way you find gpulling is.

[torn solar]

because here vtol would benefit from g pulling being harder, for gameplay reasons not realism reasons. In DCS the weapon modelling is very simple but it's simple in the opposite direction where it's impossible to g pull but comically easy to notch

I do also want dcs to make that better, but I enjoy dcs less than vtol

[north mango]

sure it’s unrealistic, i’m asking for it to be more realistic. At least in physics

otherwise might as well add magic

[torn solar]

other flight sims also aren't milsims unless you're weird about them

[dark plover]

id argue the 26 needs a more accurate flight model first

[still valve]

Dcs also has gpulling correct?

[dark plover]

That thing is literally a raptor disguised as a f15

[north mango]

wrong

[torn solar]

yes but in dcs it's so ridiculously easy to notch that there's no point in ever doing it, and against IR missiles you can just spam flares because it's a dice roll for each flare

[still valve]

Ive seen clips of vtol like gpulling in dcs?

[dark plover]

notching is boring af tho

[dark plover]

I think the only planes that struggle with flaring are the 24 and maybe the 26 if you came in hot

[torn solar]

typically what that is is actually a last-second notch (amraams are stupid and will instantly stop tracking if you notch them for one frame), but you can do it if the missile is fairly slow

[torn solar]

weirdly the only game with good IR missile modelling is war thunder

[queen otter]

G-pulling is what currently keeps 4th gen VS 5th gen PVP interesting.
5th gen are brain
4th gen are brawl
If you make RWR g-pulling excessively bad, you'll make pvp bad. You can add a bit or imprecision (enough to reduce this #1367316093625958420 message), but really not much more.

[torn solar]

oh also DCS' missiles do not have proximity fuses, so they're easy to "g pull" by getting them to miss by like 1 or 2 metres in the last half second, which in other games would still kill you

[autumn solstice]

Except 5th are just as good at g pulling

Once you figure out how to bypass FA

[queen otter]

It's still not on par

[autumn solstice]

Actually, we're post G damage for the 45 now, arent we?

[queen otter]

Yes

[autumn solstice]

Alright, not as good then, but still capable

[north mango]

"removing g pulling" would remove it from everyone (not complete removal ofc, but the cheesy meta we have now)

[mellow holly]

the battery gpull is gone 😔

[still valve]

Ai missles would need a rebalance as well. As the mentioned restrictions still allow them to be gpulled even on accident.

[autumn solstice]

Ai missiles are comically easy to dodge as is

Well, all except mad4 and cruisers

[torn solar]

to be clear, "remove g pulling" is a request for missile flight models to be reworked to make them make more sense, not a request to somehow remove planes' abilities to do specific manoeuvres

[still valve]

Im assuming this thread is pve focused so im suprised it wasnt ai missile statistics have not been mentioned

[north mango]

well it would probably imply stopping airplanes from just pulling 14gs casually

[torn solar]

also that

[autumn solstice]

Maybe https://discord.com/channels/319915885575798785/1334738860542005300

[torn solar]

but i mean, about the whole "but they'd find a way to g pull anyway" thing

yeah idk how this request about RWRs turned into a copy of that one

[north mango]

slow missile meta and g pulling aren’t the same

[torn solar]

yes but part of why the slow missile thing is annoying is that it's easier to g pull a fast missile for some reason

[still valve]

Slow missile meta is a by-product of gpulling. Making faster ones dangerous not only makes sense physics wise, but also makes engagements closer range and more engaging than fire 4 out of wez missiles.

[torn solar]

yeah right now the NEZ is basically not real, since your missile is more dangerous just outside it than it is inside

well assuming the other persons knows g pulling is a thing they can do

[north mango]

good physics when

[mystic lance]

Not really

I’m talking about the range

Not the directional accuracy

[mystic lance]

Yep

[still valve]

How wilm the MWS be changed?

[mystic lance]

Slow missile meta is so bad

It won’t be

[still valve]

Otherwise all missiles will be pulled like aim7s

[mystic lance]

This is about the rwr

[mystic lance]

Not really

The MWS is not an effective way to tell when to pull

[still valve]

Aim7s have no rwr icon other than the host

Mws has a defined range for when it goes off

Its been very reliable to me

[mystic lance]

That’s because the aim7’s can pull like 8g’s because they’re awful

[still valve]

120c is also 8gs

120ds can be defeated with a similar Maneuver

[mystic lance]

so why is the 7 infinitely easier to pull

[still valve]

Just more gs and spent energy. Supporting now spaced 120 spam

Because its 6 or 7 gs 💀

[mystic lance]

this wouldn’t make it excessively bad

also with the way the 45 dogfights this isn’t really even the case at all right now

the jets aren’t balanced at all

they aren’t supposed to be

[still valve]

💀

game

[mystic lance]

should there be more balancing? yea, but at the end of the day it’s a 5th gen vs a 4th gen

[still valve]

5th gen still beats 4th as is now

[mystic lance]

yeah and it should stay that way

[still valve]

This is just changing it too a body

Should the 120ds also re-establish datalink after a lost pitbull?

[mystic lance]

Nah because when they did that they were kinda nutty

Or so i’ve heard

[still valve]

But

Balance

Its a 5th gen missile

[mystic lance]

Balance is having them NOT do that, wdym?

[mystic lance]

You’re asking for realism

[torn solar]

they're saying it because they think that if you want one thing to be better than one other thing then it must mean you want every possible aspect of the game to be unbalanced in favour of that thing

they don't believe that, they just think that's a contradiction in what you said

average video game forum argument tbh

[still valve]

Im on team gpulling

[mystic lance]

No because i said there should be some balancing

[torn solar]

yeah

[mystic lance]

That’s fair but it’s not what i said at all

[still valve]

From my perspective it was not very clear

[torn solar]

I know

[mystic lance]

Better than calling me retarded like some people lmao

[mystic lance]

Mb

[mystic lance]

It should still 100% be doable but like

Rn you can kinda be stupid with it

To a degree

Also the fact missiles are more dangerous when they’re slower is just dumb

If you wanna gpull you should really have to set yourself up for it, as in employing other evasion tactics alongside it

[still valve]

Yes, whenever i decide to notch or chaff, its because they are far away and i can gpull when infeel the prior methods arent working.

Thats from the 26 however, since the 24 and 45 require diffent setup ive not got much experience in gpulling as a last resort

[torn solar]

planes in this game have crazy enough climb rates that normally from far enough away I just drive and then climb back up to where I was before

[mystic lance]

Kinda nutty really

You could increase the g tolerance for the 4th gen’s

They wouldn’t be as good

[torn solar]

in the f45 you have to do a weird snap roll at the last moment

[mystic lance]

But it wouldn’t be such an abysmal nerf

[torn solar]

and you have to be fast

but it usually works

because the g limiter doesn't care about the sideways acceleration that it causes

[torn solar]

yeah

[still valve]

Yeah, i can consistently gpull in 5th gens, its just i dont fly them often so i dont feel experienced enough to make a determination

[torn solar]

that's fair

[rough gyro]

i highly doubt that making the RWR more inaccurate will fix anything. sure, itll make people use up a tiny bit more energy, but thats about it. i also dont see how this would change the "merge shoot meta" or in any way change how missiles act at higher speeds

[reef warren]

rwr doesn't really need to be nerfed, what needs to be nerfed is missiles draf coef which makes draining the missiles energy via beaming in-effective or split s moves redundant.

The only choice you have for draining missiles energy is to dive away from the direction of the missile to bellow 10K feet then climb and re-engage which puts you into a defensive position compared to your enemy that just gpulled 4 aim-120's

[torpid tulip]

Wasnt it already nerfed to be more realistic a while ago

[worthy scaffold]

this too
meaning i ontologically disagree with this post

honestly within 5 miles i see no issue with the RWR being perfectly accurate

[worthy scaffold]

correct, 1.8

also made it so where it no longer shows altitude

if you want to nerf gpulling, this isnt it

you would nerf gpulling by making missiles pull more at high speeds, airburst from further away, and reduce the glimits on aircraft, not making sensors less accurate

because you dont exactly need 100% accurate sensors, you can just go "eh close enough" pull and it works

just like real life, gpulling should be done as a final measure, beaming and cranking should be used to reinforce going cold OR the Gpull, instead of Gpulling be able to be used alone

cranking is useful for reinforcing the gpull already, but if you made missiles near impossible to dodge without the crank or beam, it would make missile evasion more skillful

[wide torrent]

Yeah I'm all for nerfing gpulling, but sensor nerfs aren't it. Especially when nerfing rwr would probably just help make the 45 even stronger compared to everyone else

[shrewd crater]

It's really not..

With the limiter off, you can easily out-pull missiles like the AIM-54, but the 120s and AIRS-Ts will stick with you with enough energy left

Plus, to reiterate from earlier, nerfing the RWR will only make G-pulling an even more necessary strategy.

[worthy scaffold]

Why the fuck are you trying to pull AIRSTs?

[shrewd crater]

I'm not. I'm saying they can pull more Gs than the airframes in this game can handle, to slightly reinforce my point that G-pulling is not a win-all strategy

I know how to trash a heater, thank you

[worthy scaffold]

Aim120s are super easy to pull

[worthy scaffold]

Example on 120s (ignore the first clip)

First clip was just a goofy incident with a 120

[shrewd crater]

i was about to say you just terrain masked but damn

[still valve]

The other evasion methods are still relevant. It will always be better to chaff/drive/or notch 7 spaced 120s.

[shrewd crater]

Definitely.

[worthy scaffold]

If you are getting spammed*

Most people, like 99.9% of the player base, either send 1, or double tap to they are nearly touching

[shrewd crater]

I'd say keep G-pulling as it is. It's a solid strategy that punishes players plenty (energy loss), but is not a 100% reliable one, which means players still need to learn how to chaff, notch, drive, and terrain mask.

[worthy scaffold]

In a situation like what I was in, it was advantageous to just stay as aggressive as possible to kill the 3 players in front when there were not many other options

[still valve]

Even if you turn gpulling into a more risky evasive option, its reward is still so great that people will dedicate practice into it

[worthy scaffold]

It’s almost 100% reliable, and you can make it more reliable by cranking ahead of time

[still valve]

All you do is isolate that mechanic to a higher skill group, which is not very engaging in my opinion

[worthy scaffold]

Also I feel like they should probably airburst from further

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1015729794320699404/1362512938459467776/image.png?ex=68151f8e&is=6813ce0e&hm=e7c3de725273fc33f3fc8191bbe3db6d191f62db136622c472c374da450742e7&

This should have airbursted me

[still valve]

Prox detting may fix a bit of the issues most people have with gpulling. Which is the amount of missiles to kill 1 skilled player. A larger or smarter prox fuse will make spaced missiles much more effective.

And then reduce the amount for a high pk volly

[worthy scaffold]

Plus it could make it so where 120s have a chance to wound you if they wouldn’t have been able to kill you

[still valve]

My experience with 54s and failed pulls usually is that

Since they have a larger radius

[oblique current]

prox fuse fix + airframe damage increasing RCS would help a lot tbh

[reef warren]

Cranking in vtol is pointless because how good the missiles drag coef, and burn times are. It is only useful in simulators that have realistic drag coef.

[worthy scaffold]

I mean I still find it pretty useful, it feels like missiles are way easier to pull after I’ve cranked (my hog)

[queen otter]

may the prox fuse remain forever unchanged

[reef warren]

After successfully draining the kinetic energy of a missile you shouldn't have to gpull the missile. The only legitimate strategy you have in vtol for dealing with its modeling of Aim120's is either to gpull, turn cold (Split S to lower altitude/run away), terrain mask, or beaming/chaff the missile.

[queen otter]

it might just be because they are easier to gpull if you're not nose on
also, see: https://discord.com/channels/319915885575798785/1334738860542005300

[reef warren]

I thought the whole point of that thread was that at slower speeds Aim120's turn better, which would mean they're more deadly after cranking them.

[tidal halo]

proxy fuse is already like 10m+ rn

[queen otter]

yep

slow missile are harder

but being nose on is a bad geometry

it's better to put the missile like 30° off one side just before you for the gpulls

[reef warren]

Within the current meta of vtol yes.

[dark plover]

The amount of 120s I’ve seen whizz right over my head and not explode while pulling in the 24 is crazy

[mystic lance]

It wouldn't, it would work alongside it

[worthy scaffold]

Still an indirect buff for the F45 so I ontologically disagree with it

[queen otter]

lmao

[worthy scaffold]

You gotta understand Phil im a certified 45 hater

[queen otter]

no i fully understand the philosophy of not wanting to buff the 45

[shrewd crater]

i don't like the 45 because it just seems to baby you too much.

No flaps, no G-limiter, basically everything is done on that glorified iPad.
Even the EF-24, which still has the giant touch display, feels a lot more tactile, interactive, and vulnerable, which just makes it so much more fun to fly for me.

[wide torrent]

It just doesn't need to be stronger. A nerf wouldn't even be bad, especially if it affects bfm

[worthy scaffold]

Real

But an RWR ranging nerf would ONLY hit 4th gen’s

Within 5nm, 5th gen’s have exact tracking data of the incoming missile, +elevation, projected onto the HMD

[queen otter]

i like the 45 because the true limiter is the pilot
you died? Skill issue lmao. Get better. The issue was not the airframe.

[wide torrent]

Yeah, nerfing it's senors just isn't needed

[wide torrent]

Yeah that's completely reasonable, and I don't think it should be nerfed so far that's not the case. I just don't think it should be the unchallenged topdog in everything but jamming

[queen otter]

at first glance, all the systems appear to be limiters
but you come to realize your are the coughing baby sitting inside the hydrogen bomb
they are there so you can keep up

[queen otter]

lmao it's the best for air to air jamming

wait, ground too actually

[worthy scaffold]

It’s really good at jamming too

Like it literally forgot the entire meaning of “Jack of all trades”

Meaning it can’t do any particular thing the best but it can do everything somewhat effectively, making it the best

But in this game, it just completely left out the “Master of none” because it’s only disadvantage is it can’t really carry as many weapons as everything else

Which, isn’t even exactly true depending on the mission

[queen otter]

we do a little bit of missinfo

[worthy scaffold]

It can carry second most A2A and the most ATGMSs

[worthy scaffold]

It’s the best at SEAD, best at A2G, and best at A2A

[queen otter]

the only thing it's "bad" at it top speed and gpulling

[wide torrent]

Oh lmao, I just kinda assumed it was worse at jamming than the jamcat. Thanks for the correction

[torpid tulip]

It can still gpull pretty easy

[queen otter]

it's outright better imo because you can use your RCS along with it

enemy lock you from the side > jam him > point your nose at him > lock break
then you can go back to what you were doing
or stay nose and turn off jammer to go back to being invisible and avoid HOJ

[queen otter]

it requires a little more setup time than 4th gen, but that's about it yep

[worthy scaffold]

which is saying something because the 24 can do this shit

[wide torrent]

Yeah that makes sense

[mystic lance]

45 needs to be nerfed to a pulp when it comes to dogfighting

It cant just be good at everything

[queen otter]

https://discord.com/channels/319915885575798785/1344103235123806248

[mystic lance]

Even without viffing it has some pretty stupid energy retention

[stable garden]

Anything to nerf G-pulling

[queen otter]

yes lets make the game less accessible to anything that's not PvE and their non-turning missiles

and just overall more boring

[stable garden]

Can't please everyone

[queen otter]

[paper zealot]

nerf gpulling buff chaffing

[queen otter]

gpulling could be made a little more risky if chaffing was more reliable

rn it feels like a last resort where you have to be ready to gpull in case it fails

and it uses up flares which are much more valuable, unless you micro manages your cms switches

[weak seal]

WHICH IS PAINFUL IN THE 24 AND 45!!!

[torpid tulip]

I am proudly anti-GPulling

[queen otter]

I wouldn't be proud of that

[north mango]

g pull is ass and should be obliterated

[mellow holly]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1308499695504588880/1369022926413893642/QgadI5k.gif

[buoyant junco]

good thing this post only got 9 likes

and 31 dislikes

baha won't put much thought into considering it

[tidal halo]

👀

[still valve]

I feel like gpulling is here to stay. Whether it gets harder or easier, no clue. But the fact there has been things that are balanced around it show its ingrained in vtols gameplay as a feature, whether it was an intentional one or not.

[north mango]

how are things balanced around it ?

[still valve]

Arad diamonds, 45 gpulling nerf.... for the most recent

[worthy scaffold]

There needs to be a manual semi auto auto dial

[oblique current]

okay but like u consider f45a gameplay fun so like

opinion invalidated

[oblique current]

buff pre-chaffing too 🔥

make that bitch pitbull on my chaff

altho i think nerfing gpulling by increasing RCS with airframe damage, and fixng those damn proximity fuses, would be enough probably

[reef warren]

increase missile drag so it makes cranking, beaming, split s more viable.

[stable garden]

🔥

[rough gyro]

I wonder if keeping the drag as it is, but making the missile torque-speed curve more realsitic could also solve this issue

[mystic lance]

it can be a little nutty rn

[reef warren]

I think it only calculates linear atmospheric drag not angular drag. It is the reason why the missile can change its direction without losing much speed

[mystic lance]

you as well not go cold

[mystic lance]

that’s stupid :l

[reef warren]

You can go cold, just the problem with the way VTOL does missile drag you have to be running for a long time

[reef warren]

It is the reason why dragging the missile to low altitudes less than 10k works so well to drain the missile energy than split s and going cold or cranking the missile

[mystic lance]

hence why you just shouldn’t

you’re cold for so long that the bandit is already offensive on you to the point where you can’t recommit without dying

given equal skill ofc

that’s another thing that makes gpull meta

[mystic lance]

yeah it just takes so long and is so impractical

[reef warren]

After you learn gpulling missiles are a mere inconvenience instead of a serious threat

[mystic lance]

like why even do it when you can notch and be able to recommit easier, or just straight up gpull it and never go defensive

[mystic lance]

exactly, it’s stupid

[reef warren]

Notching suffers from the same problem of going cold, that is gpulling is a superior technique that has no downside other than maybe damaging your aircraft depending on the skill of the pilot

Perfect example, just fly a 26 and fire a fox2 and a fox3, the other player will 99% of the time gpull the fox3 and get hit by the fox2

[still valve]

The issue with balancing gpulling is you need to make other methods more appealing. And even then, gpulling will still be the best strategy if you can consistently do it, no matter what you do to make it harder. The ability to defend while offensive is an overwhelming advantage.

In fact, I have an inkling of a feeling that if you raise the skill floor of gpulling, you may inadvertently make it a stronger evasion choice. As now the average opponent will be less likely to match you in gpulling.

[reef warren]

I'm suggesting to leave gpulling alone but work on the missile drag coef so it makes cranking, beaming, and also draining the missile energy more viable strategy. I don't think improving notching/chaffing need a buff

[cerulean meteor]

Angular drag is a thing

Or atleast drag created by the wings being at a non 0 AoA angle

[still valve]

This with the slow missile change would be good.

[worthy scaffold]

tbf chaffing used to be insane but i think it got overnerfed

its still usable but its not great

i remember being able to gpull a missile into a chaff and all missiles would just instantly drop lock with no resistance

also yeah the drag on missiles allows them to glide a stupid long distance

i remember running from a mad 4 for a solid minute and a half and it was able to stay in visible range but never catch up

[shrewd crater]

exactly, the F-45 babies you so much in literally every aspect of the game that if you manage to die while flying it it's a true testament to how bad you are at the game

[queen otter]

That's true for any aircraft in PvE tho

[shrewd crater]

im talking about pvp

[shrewd crater]

not really

[mystic lance]

yes

[olive girder]

and the thing is your wingman will lose 1v2 fight if you are going defensive and you don't reengage in a right time