AJS 37 viggen

[cold jolt]

eldritch rwr beeps included

[half prism]

This would go perfectly with this https://discord.com/channels/319915885575798785/1251603516317892781

[dry salmon]

Viggen had been replaced by the newer and more advanced Saab JAS 39 Gripen.

[fast panther]

People want a low tech airframe

[dry salmon]

This thread is specifically about the Viggen, so what is it that the Viggen can do that other low-tech vehicles can't?
If it's just about any random low-tech vehicle, there are already plenty of other posts about that.

[fast panther]

I don't think we care much about what it can do versus other aircraft very much anymore

I certainly don't

[harsh smelt]

I dont think any less modern planes then the ones we have now are getting added time soon, none the less if they aren't american themed, modern and american seems like the entire theme atm so I wouldn't expect this, espeically being a low tech airfarme

[fast panther]

Never say never

[harsh smelt]

I feel like if this was ever to be added, this would be would probably be apart of a DLC for an enemy team, the games planes rn just consist of American fighters and strike aircraft

[fast panther]

I mean, the T-55 is korean, it just looks american

[harsh smelt]

Yeah, I think your idea entirely is good I just dont think its gonna be considered cause of the low tech and its not foreign, and I think he wants people to talk abt the features this new plane dlc could bring as well

what could a viggin bring that would be a unique feature?

its something you got to think abt if you want the plane to be actually considered

[fast panther]

Not really. Baha needs to diversify if he wants VTOL to survive long term

[harsh smelt]

well the games been going strong for awhile due to its uniqueness, and im glad it is, but then again he can't push out updates like a machine gun as a single person as well, Im not one to say either abt how hard or easy it is to do a plane but i'd imagine its lengthy

[fast panther]

It's not about "pushing out" updates, it's taking the time to create something the community has been begging for

I'd fly the hell out of a VTOL-ified Viggen

[harsh smelt]

Well, like I said hes a solo developer for such a big game like this, so you cant imagine he's got a job to worry about as well

I would fly a knockoff viggen too, but im just saying the chances of it being added r low, due to the nature of the game atp. A featue it could bring is thrust vectoring though

[spare pendant]

STOL it’s just cool

[worldly elbow]

You know what else can STOL

[sour brook]

Is a dupe https://discord.com/channels/319915885575798785/1291107857420390493

[spare pendant]

?

[half prism]

Please explain

Your request was for a faster and overall worse version of the F/A-26B. This post is about the viggen.

[tranquil plaza]

Fake dupes: the new way to promote unrelated suggestions

[spare pendant]

I see

[civic sinew]

not exactly…

[opal herald]

Baha just needs to come out and say no plans for low tech planes already

[fast panther]

Or yes plans (for one)

[opal herald]

Me when CAW low tech hopium

[tacit sparrow]

you can't blame them. It would be cool

[opal herald]

But why would it be cool?

"Just because" isn't a valid reason

[half prism]

It would add a new approach to aerial combat

More dynamic aircraft

Meaning, that although there might be multiple aircraft with similar and dissimilar characteristics, these subtle and drastic differences between aircrafts can change more about how pilots strategize and approach a fight.

[sour brook]

Isn't this literally just 'an f/a-26b with a slightly different flight model'

hence a dupe

[half prism]

It’s an AJS-37 Viggen. If you know anything about the viggen, you should know that it is not even close to the wasp

Vastly different

Reverse thrust, single engine that flames out at high AOA, air to ground radar, primitive navigation, Cold War era, light weapon loadout etc.

Only uses primitive sidewinders for A/A

Cluster glide munitions

No TGP

No JHMCS

Primitive hud

One screen dedicated to the radar

A tiny sight for mavericks

Worse F/A-26B =/= AJS-37 Viggen

[tranquil plaza]

You could make this argument for like 90% of the aircraft suggestions

[civic sinew]

most of these are just general low tech characteristics, not specific to the viggen, that’s just an appearance

[tranquil plaza]

But it’s still a different aircraft (sometimes)

[civic sinew]

which is why 90% of aircraft suggestions are bad

[broken shadow]

Why request new aircraft that are barely different from the existing ones when we can just have updates to the existing jets to expand their arsenals and capabilities?

[tranquil plaza]

New cockpit/ flight model to learn most of the time

[half prism]

The issue is that people want a “worse” aircraft

[civic sinew]

^
thats what a company would do to sell DLCs

[tranquil plaza]

That or just top gun plane

[broken shadow]

Quantity over quality aircraft specifically to please people who want that specific aircraft in the game?

[half prism]

People enjoy that challenge of fighting against top-of-the-line fighters in their inferior jet

[tranquil plaza]

Maybe 5% of the players from who keeps asking for it

[broken shadow]

Last I checked the request forums are filled with the same "pls add aircraft that I like" suggestions

[half prism]

Take the tyro for example. It is slower, carries less weapons, non-stealthy, and has a weaker engine than it’s competitors, and yet, people still like fighting in them

[tranquil plaza]

I’ve only seen the same group of people asking for low tech

[half prism]

I also believe it is because older planes are often more iconic than newer ones

Everyone knows the F-14 tomcat

Iconic aircraft

Same with the F-4

[tranquil plaza]

Ef24

[half prism]

Exactly. Baha delivered

[tranquil plaza]

With a modern plane

[half prism]

It’s close enough to the F-14

It carries phoenixes, and has the best radar

[tranquil plaza]

Some people want low tech, but the ef24 wasn’t low tech even though it was based off a 70s design

Looks a bit clear to me what Baha’s going for

[broken shadow]

I will admit, I like the idea of certain lower tech elements and do not have many issues with having them in the game, just adapted to the modern aircraft

Though, my opinion on new aircraft suggestions, be it new/old tech still remains

[civic sinew]

which is why i think a low tech DLC jet should be an F-4
it would sell more
and it comes with everything such a DLC would need

[sour brook]

That's why I think we should group all the generic 4th gen multirole aircraft suggestions under my thread

[half prism]

and it’s multicrew

[civic sinew]

and all the 3rd gen under one of the existing low tech fighter suggestions ?

[tranquil plaza]

Why?

Let people have their voice and ideas, even if they’re not gonna make it

[sour brook]

Cause they are all essentially the same suggestion

[tranquil plaza]

And?

They’re not the same people

[sour brook]

Pick your favorite cold war fighter and suggest it

[half prism]

Same category, different suggestions

[sour brook]

Just need to acknowledge that everything is just an f26 with a different flight model

[tranquil plaza]

No?

[half prism]

With that rationale, every plane is an F-26 with a different flight model

[tranquil plaza]

I guess the f45 is 4th gen

[half prism]

I could say that the WWII P-51 mustang is an F-26 with a different flight model.

It makes no sense

[civic sinew]

sustorm is just mocking the numerous aircraft suggestions like https://discord.com/channels/319915885575798785/1307150060253089812 that are literally asking for a real life plane without any or very few examples of novelty in gameplay

the original post of this thread falls under that

I personally think low tech could justify a new plane, but i also must recognise that low tech is niche.

[cold jolt]

Low tech Is fun

Dcs F4 sold like hotcakes

[civic sinew]

what low tech needs more than a dedicated plane is more dedicated units imo

like unguided AAA of different kinds

an ASF-21 maybe for a mig-21

that sort of stuff

[fast panther]

It adds a challenge. Low tech is simply more fun because it’s more challenging.

[carmine gyro]

I say this every time Cold War comes up but you can’t just insert an 80s jet into the 2030s game world. Any Cold War jet would need a complete revamp of units to include Cold War themed ones, and honestly baha is better off just expanding the base game than adding another time period and making the gameplay a bit half-assed

[fast panther]

𝔀𝓪𝓽𝓬𝓱 𝓶𝓮

It's only 2030s because CAW lore

[carmine gyro]

mf

[fast panther]

When the game came out, "near-future" meant about now

Plus, we aren't asking for an 80s version of a 3rd gen, we're looking for something slightly more modern

At least, I am

dubya is

[carmine gyro]

80s, 90s, whatever. it doesnt matter

[fast panther]

It matters to me

If Baha spent a good year or so, he could flesh out enough units (or ask the community for some, as well as sounds, textures, etc) for a low tech DLC

[opal herald]

It feels like it takes him longer to get mission editor QoL. I think low tech DLC is outta the question

[fast panther]

All it takes is time, motivation, and a bit of money

Obviously Mission Editor QoL wasn't his prio

[opal herald]

Don't get your hopes up

[fast panther]

Nah, I'm gonna keep them up to spite you all

[spare pendant]

this blew up fast

also i might just learn c# and model it in unity

the reason i chose the viggen is because its one of my favorite aircrafts its fast low flying and can go in reverse. another thing is the viggen got an upgrade in the 90s to make it more advanced witch i probaly should have mentioned

[spare pendant]

my idea was bacicaly what baha did with the ef 24g take an old plane and make it new

[fast panther]

Exactly

[spare pendant]

You see this guy gets it

[dry salmon]

But still, there needs to be a new feature that existing vehicles don't have before you can add it to an old aircraft to make it new.

[cold jolt]

Tbf the F-22 was the 90s

[fast panther]

It officially entered service in 2005 (ish).

[cold jolt]

First flight was '97 but that's a fair point

[tranquil plaza]

Lmao

Deleted message?

[fast panther]

Yes because mfs keep disagreeing with me

[tranquil plaza]

Dude I’m gonna be honest.

Every one of those points you make people don’t like

It’s that simple

Most People dont want low tech

[fast panther]

Then they can ignore them

ignore the "low tech pls" posts

[tranquil plaza]

They can also choose to respond

[fast panther]

Don't interact

[tranquil plaza]

You got the freedom to post em, they got the freedom to say no.

[fast panther]

It just calls for people bitching back and forth between each other about what they like and not like

[tranquil plaza]

That’s called a conversation

Or an arguement

[fast panther]

Not when people say "you suck, your posts suck, we don't need this wah wah wah"

[tranquil plaza]

Ehhhh…..

Some posts are decent, but I gotta say you have some absolutely wild takes

[fast panther]

What, wanting a low tech aircraft in VTOL that literally adds nothing new, being "new" itself because it's simpler and has less features and capabilities?

If more people took the time to see where I'm coming from, why the Cold War and its aircraft are so popular in games like War Thunder, Ace Combat, and DCS, we would have more people saying "low tech is cool, I think we should have something like XX in VTOL."

Some people are so damn narrow minded

[dry salmon]

It is not to say that low-tech vehicles cannot be added. It is just that even for low-tech vehicles, there must still be a new feature that existing vehicles cannot. If you come up with that new feature, then why not

[tranquil plaza]

I don’t disagree with you, but at the same I’m not trying to play a worse fa-26 or t55

And I don’t think most people long term would play it unless it had something to stand out other than less

[fast panther]

idk, if more people got rid of the stigma that "a low tech aircraft would be worse than anything we already have in the game, so that makes it not fun" or "it's old, why would I fly it over something like the 24 or 26" The ideas I have are something that's just about as capable, but looks old

New internals, old externals

I just call it a "low tech" aircraft because that's how it looks

I'm not saying we need to add a 1960s era aircraft in its entirety to VTOL.

[tranquil plaza]

Tbf.
If you call it low tech, people are going to assume it’s a lower class compared to high or mid tech

As for the rest, would be interesting

[fast panther]

Compared to the 45, 24, or 94, the 26, 55, and 42 are lower tech

[tranquil plaza]

Yes, but not low tech

It’s 4th and 5th gen vs 3rd gen

[fast panther]

If you really look at it, the 26 is basically from the 1990s

yes it can carry GPS bombs and modern stuff, but its design is old

[tranquil plaza]

I’d argue it’s more 2000s

But fair

[tranquil plaza]

Tho I still would want something interest that truly makes an aircraft stand out

I would not fly the 24 if it wasn’t as unique

[fast panther]

The reason I don't fly the 24 is because it isn't fun to fly. EWO is fun, the weapons it carries is fun, multicrew is fun, the way it flies, actual turn and stall performance is terrible. The DCS F-14 is more "fun" to fly because it flies how one would expect it to

The 24 just feels mushy, unless you're at mach 1.2+

[tranquil plaza]

Oh I agree.

But it has an ewo, it feels more like a teamwork oriented vehicle imo

That’s why I like it

It has a different atmosphere and gameplay loop completely

[fast panther]

Oh for sure, there's a reason why Baha swears to make each DLC multicrew

Flying with friends is fun

[opal herald]

Who actually said this tho

||Other than Emi||

[cold jolt]

I've made 2 cold war related posts that got good reception but I agree, it's definitely a niche and there are more important things to be added first

ASW, better optimization, qol, customization, etc

[spare pendant]

I’m learning blender and c#

I’ll learn modeling then see if people like the idea

[cold jolt]

C# supremacy

[civic sinew]

low tech is the feature
if the 45 wasn’t in the game, there would be plenty of people asking for an F-35, F-22… and the "new feature" in those posts would be 5th gen and stealth
Here, for a low tech plane the features are low tech, 3rd gen, and general lack of assists and tech

[dry salmon]

Stealth is a feature related to mission capability. Stealth aircraft can do things that non-stealth aircraft cannot. And since the internal weapons bay that stealth relies on cannot be retrofitted to other non-stealth vehicles, it must be achieved by adding a new vehicle.
But what does low tech bring? Take away some systems? You can't add by just removing.

[civic sinew]

what can the 26 do that the 45 can’t ??
by this logic, had the 45 been added first, we would never had gotten the 26 because it is a low tech plane compared to the 45.
It just has less capability, no stealth, worse cockpit, worse datalink, worse weapons, etc. That is exactly what makes it unique and fun to fly.

The 26 is the vanilla ice cream of fighter jets, any other jet could unavoidably be summed up to "it’s a 26 with different looks, handling and a few different features"

It seems to me that your strict logic means that no new fighter can be added to VTOL

[tranquil plaza]

26 brought radar to the game iirc

it did bring in new features

[spare pendant]

My first blender project

[spare pendant]

huh?

5/6 aircraft are fourth gen

[harsh smelt]

we might be onto nothing here 🙏

[spare pendant]

haha

yep

[harsh smelt]

https://tenor.com/view/darius-hellpeppa-is-calling-darius-tomato-hottie-calling-gif-16429339722293816288

[civic sinew]

yeah but if the 45 had been added first, we could have never gotten the 26

[tranquil plaza]

I mean

I guess

But that’s not how it went

The ef24 isn’t as good, capability isn’t the problem. It added to the game and added mechanics

A low tech plane wouldn’t add much, and I’m yet to see a major thing that would come with an old and inferior aircraft

[fast panther]

Stay tuned

[cold jolt]

More engaging play style other than fire 6 aim 120s from 30nm, better team work with RIO, bombs like snakeyes, rockeyes, and SARH variants etc.

https://discord.com/channels/319915885575798785/1259539893751644180
more stuff here

Oh and new units

And maybe a low tech redfor aircraft

[civic sinew]

yes but then think about this :
what if the first plane added to VTOL had been an F-4
baha could have then added the 26
and then the 45, they both qualify as "new gameplay features"

i think it’s a massive shame to lock out a whole plane and tech level because it’s worse than what we have now

[fast panther]

EXACTLY!!!!!!!

[tranquil plaza]

We got the av42

Sure, we could’ve started with the f4

But that’s not what happened, and rn it needs a new gameplay feature

[tranquil plaza]

Play style is not an argument to how it would add to vtol.

[cold jolt]

Agree to disagree

[fast panther]

I mean, yeah it kinda is. The way VTOL is, you can play the aircraft in different ways to varying success and fun factor

It's about the end user experience

[tranquil plaza]

You can also play the t55 without MFDs or HUD

Or HMCS

That’s a playstyle, is it a new feature?

[fast panther]

But it doesn't look cool like the Viggen or F-4 or whatever else would

Rule of cool

[tranquil plaza]

Well womp womp

You’re not looking from outside the aircraft all the time

[fast panther]

It's about the interior too

[tranquil plaza]

The f4 interior looks like 80% instruments and 20% sky

[fast panther]

Hmm would I rather play looking at this all the time:

Or this:

[fast panther]

THAT'S THE POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tranquil plaza]

I’d rather look forward to see clouds, not a dial

But fair, that’s opinion

[fast panther]

Then play the 45

or 24

[civic sinew]

it’s new gameplay, which is the point of new aircraft
actually it’s the point of all new features and additions

[fast panther]

quit telling people "you can't have this because I don't want it"

[tranquil plaza]

I said fair, that’s opinion

Scroll up

Also quit telling people that “I don’t care, we should get this because I want it”

That goes both ways

[tranquil plaza]

Fair, though a new cockpit is only a novelty for as long as it takes to learn it

A new feature can take longer and have a longer effect

[cold jolt]

Just because you wouldn't play it means it's bad

You don't have to buy a dlc

[tranquil plaza]

Not what I said

[civic sinew]

thankfully low tech is more than a cockpit

[fast panther]

Low tech is the "feel" of an aircraft

[cold jolt]

Fr my message had way more points other than play style

[fast panther]

How it looks, how to interact with it, how it flies, how it sounds

[tranquil plaza]

That changes with every aircraft

Not just low tech

We could get a 2080s jet and all that would be there

[tranquil plaza]

Alr I’ll go back and read it rq

[fast panther]

With Low Tech you are closer to the actual aircraft itself, less computers, less control overrides, more raw feeling

Just because something wouldn't be fun for the majority, doesn't mean a few of us won't scoop it up and love it

[tranquil plaza]

Rockeyes/SARH variants could be cool.

I think we have snakeyes ingame already, could be mistaken

[fast panther]

We have Mk82 AIR, the ballute version

Snakeyes are fin retarded

[tranquil plaza]

Yeah that sounds a bit pointless to add with the airs

But sarh could be cool

[fast panther]

rule of cool

[tranquil plaza]

Maybe r27s for the redfor craft

[fast panther]

snakeyes look cooler

[tranquil plaza]

You don’t see the bombs.

[fast panther]

If you roll inverted after dropping them? Or someone else drops them? what

[tranquil plaza]

Bro.

[fast panther]

Bro yourself

[tranquil plaza]

You ain’t getting that close with someone else

[fast panther]

WHAT

If you fly formation and drop bombs?

[tranquil plaza]

And sure you could flip over to see a tiny texture change

But why

[fast panther]

It's a model not a texture WHAT

[civic sinew]

i always roll to look at my bombs
the paveway with the big fins that pop out is my favorite

[fast panther]

GBU-24s with the larger fins would go hard in VTOL

[civic sinew]

i like these a lot

[fast panther]

yeeeeess

[queen grail]

I think it’s just that most people don’t want it that badly or they understand what Baha has said. He has said that he won’t add anything that doesn’t add new mechanics/features. A low tech aircraft doesn’t do that. If someone wants it badly enough, they’ll make a mod for it.

[spare pendant]

I think I also said something about the play style of the viggen

It’s whole thing is fast

[fast panther]

I mean low and fast the 24 and 26 (kinda) can do

[spare pendant]

Low flying fast which makes it a ship killer

But what I’m saying is that’s what I like and enjoy some people like high flying interceptors or helis it’s really just opinion

[spare pendant]

Yes but my point is that’s what the viggen is made for which makes it so interesting to me

[fast panther]

That same capability was fielded with F-4s later in its life (other than Wild Weaseling). Fly low, pop up or maintain low altitude, strike target with bombs or rockets, fly out

[queen grail]

Yet again, same problem with any of those, it’s not a new mechanic, it’s just different stats.

[fast panther]

I don't see an issue with new aircraft doing the same things already in the game

[queen grail]

Bro. Can you not read? It’s not a problem with adding it, go ahead and mod it into the game. Baha has already said he won’t add new aircraft that don’t have new mechanics. #1243595148823363704 message

[fast panther]

Yes. Bro. I can read

[queen grail]

Let go of that notion, then. Or just keep asking for things that won’t be done. Pretty sure Baha said that because there is the ability to mod new aircraft into the game, but if there’s new mechanics worth adding, he might as well make it a part of the vanilla game. He shouldn’t need to do everything.

[fast panther]

That's fine if he feels that way, I'm stating the fact that if he wants VTOL to survive long-term in the flight simulation combat game genre, he is going to need to diversify the lineup of playable aircraft at some point further than it already is

[broken shadow]

You say this as if it hasn't been doing good since 2017. Baha can accomplish more with less and I wholeheartedly believe that. His stance on aircraft is there for a plethora of reasons.

[fast panther]

It could be more popular with more aircraft

[broken shadow]

But that would not necessarily make it better

[fast panther]

For some people it would

[broken shadow]

For who, you?

[fast panther]

YES!

I only make suggestions for VTOL to make it better for me and anyone who thinks like me

or likes the same things I do

[broken shadow]

And your idea of a better VTOL is potentially rushed and reskinned aircraft all for the sake of just.. content and popularity?

[cold jolt]

Could be higher or lower drag

[fast panther]

No. My idea of a better VTOL is dedicated time taken for new aircraft that exhibit some or most of the same capabilities of existing aircraft for the sake of diversity

I'm not saying Baha should slop out 12 new aircraft RIGHT NOW1!!!!11!

[broken shadow]

I will remind you, Baha is a single dev. He does nearly all of this by himself and never for no reason. He didn't just make the EF-24 or AH-94 for no reason, they create interesting scenarios that actually expand on the gameplay in meaningful and interesting ways.

A reskinned aircraft does not accomplish nearly as much.

[cold jolt]

None of us are demanding him add anything

[fast panther]

My ideas for new aircraft aren't reskins though. They not only look different, but fly different, stall different, sound different

[tranquil plaza]

I guess, not much functionality that we alr dont have. Maybe on different aircraft

[cold jolt]

Its a suggestion channel, we are suggesting ideas that baha can use

Its also hard to make planes feel super different from each other with how arcade-y vtol vr is

[broken shadow]

Yet every suggestion can be subject to criticism from people who think otherwise. I think that Joe's ideas move into the wrong direction, for instance.

[cold jolt]

Plus all the cockpits are almost identical, a more analogue one would be nice

[broken shadow]

Baha has the final say on the matter and he does make it clear that there is no guarantee that anybodies suggestion will make it in.

[cold jolt]

Yes

[fast panther]

He needs to start culling the dupes though

Or someone does

[cold jolt]

For real the bombers 😭

[fast panther]

Put somewhere in the #faq or forum guidelines that he has no plans to add XX

At least nip it in the bud

If he says "I will not add a low tech aircraft" then I finally have my answer

[broken shadow]

Having more aircraft is not going to magically make VTOL a better game when the backbone of it can be so lacking sometimes.

[fast panther]

and can stop bugging him

[fast panther]

There's an idea: suggest things for the base game

[broken shadow]

Improvements to the mission editor, new units, more weapons, all of that stuff should (in my opinion) come before any new aircraft.

[fast panther]

Well yeah,of course

[broken shadow]

Arguing with you is a waste of time, i'll just put it that way before any kind of several hundred word long essay

[fast panther]

I could honestly say the same, but whatever

[broken shadow]

at least the feeling is mutual

[cold jolt]

It's not that serious it's a suggestion for funny plane game guys

[queen grail]

And he has made it a guarantee that aircraft that don’t have new features/mechanics won’t be added*

[spare pendant]

the viggen can go backwards

[cold jolt]

Great point

[spare pendant]

thank you

[civic sinew]

neither, wtf are you on about
how can he make suggestions for things that don’t apply to him

[opal herald]

So, maybe that was a little too much, and I apologize. I think I expect too much from people who've been around these forums long enough. You'd think that after over 100 aircraft requests (probably an exaggeration) that people start to see the pattern on what is required for an aircraft to be added and playable. Joe's comments genuinely came across as rage bait for the people who ask that age-old "what gameplay mechanics will this bring" question and their arguments. Of course, I don't have any authority or an idea if Baha has an interest or not, but from the #faq and what playtesters say (who have, to some extent, a direct line to Baha), I really don't see the key points in this suggestion as sufficient enough for a solo developer to spend time and resources on when all it's gonna bring is "fun gameplay loop" for a select few people.

I think another large issue is the lack of input from Baha himself on the forums. On only one hand can you count the amount of declined/rejected ideas from #1241384011113173162 , #1243593308152791151 , and #1241385856518848573 combined. Having his input on what would work or not would be a huge help instead of server veterans and playtesters echoing his ideas onto others, which is beginning to cause frustration as seen here on this post. At this point, it would be a monumental task for him to go through each one with a fine tooth comb on top of his current phase of development, so I see why he hasn't gotten around to doing it.

TLDR; counterarguments here came across as rage bait, and I'm sorry to Joe (if they end up seeing this) for that image. Baha should communicate more on the forums for his visions outside of FAQ

[fast panther]

I'll get rid of my gif too, and I also want to apologize. I understand some of what I post on here is nigh on hateful, and it doesn't accomplish anything positive for VTOL or the community

[opal herald]

We all need to also start doing a better job whenever someone does come with a low-effort aircraft suggestion. More often than not, they're newer members who don't interact here as much and they will often get flamed by us server veterans because it "should be common knowledge, duh." I'm just as guilty for encouraging it by making that star wars meme clip with all the bomber posts - another reason why the forums need to be sorted through

[civic sinew]

just remember this is an echo chamber at the end of the day

[spare pendant]

Did they just have an existential crisis it’s just a funny plane game suggesting it’s not that deep

[opal herald]

Feel free to contribute