#Show jamming sources on RWR

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

undone olive
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you can see jamming signals on the radar page

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(without it being on)

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just letting ya know

stone wagon
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The EF24 is the only aircraft in game capable of giving you the direction from which you’re being jammed

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It’s show on the TSD in the Electronic Ring

stone wagon
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It isn’t.

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That’s how it is supposed to be

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The EF24 can see these because of it’s role

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:/

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The others don’t really need that information 90% of the time

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Whilst the Mischief does

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Mischief*

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also TSD isn’t an RWR

faint sierra
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RWR is meant to get bearings of recognised radar signals I guess

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Personally I dont think locking the HOJ on radar should show anything on the HMCS either

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But yeah, as said, the 24 is the EW aircraft, so it makes sense that it has the sensors for it

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I do think that we should be able to fire HOJ without radar active though

boreal raft
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All planes with a rwr or a radar have sensors for radar waves, that how jamming works

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It's literally a ton of X band radar waves hitting your plane, if you can't pick that up you don't have an RWR

faint sierra
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The RWR can detect it, but it doesnt have any way to classify it and display

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*at the moment

boreal raft
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My dude, it's a digital plane, there's no universe where that plane is just being left unable to display jamming, it's absolutely a silly thing for it to not show

faint sierra
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Do irl planes display jamming bearings?

boreal raft
gentle stump
boreal raft
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There's kinda no way to make an RWR that isn't at least capable of picking up jamming, the only option is that it would be literally filtered out

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RWRs are just microwave detectors, jamming is a shit ton of microwaves

stone wagon
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Ok so

boreal raft
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In exactly the frequencies the RWR is designed to pick up

stone wagon
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With no sense of true direction

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Just constant noise

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is that what you want

boreal raft
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Yeah?

stone wagon
gentle stump
boreal raft
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"Hmm, yes, we don't want our pilots to know if they're being hit by jamming, because we just enjoy seeing them fucking die"

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I doubt it

stone wagon
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And adjusting power would adjust where you are on rwr as well :/

boreal raft
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Jamming is a higher priority threat than just a regular radar ping for one

gentle stump
stone wagon
boreal raft
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Jamming is radar

gentle stump
boreal raft
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It's literally the exact same signal

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That's the whole point

stone wagon
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I find getting jammed not to be worrying

gentle stump
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with a completely different purpose

stone wagon
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A TWS missile is a lot more scary than some low band noise

boreal raft
stone wagon
gentle stump
boreal raft
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Standard radar pings mean they can possibly see you, jamming means they're currently looking at you

gentle stump
stone wagon
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And your rwr would become very annoying

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💀

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I’ll pass

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I’d rather not listen to weeweeweeweeweeweewee constantly

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😭

boreal raft
faint sierra
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Rwr just hits white noise

stone wagon
boreal raft
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There are far more nbd radar signals than nbd jammings

stone wagon
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The rwr will just become a whitenoise machine

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Sounds stupid

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yeah easy: don’t have it

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yes

gentle stump
stone wagon
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^

faint sierra
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yeah you can jam pretty well off just one radar ping

gentle stump
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I'd rather it somewhat mimick an IRl RWR, which AFAIK can't/won't display jamming signals

boreal raft
stone wagon
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RWRs don’t display every signal they pick up

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Because it’d become cluttered

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And unreadable

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With the amount of noise that is transmitted with noisejamming

faint sierra
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Some dude rings his mum and I get a SARH tone

stone wagon
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The rwr would become unintelligible

gentle stump
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@unreal dome give us some wisdom
can/will an IRL RWR display jamming signals?

faint sierra
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From a balance perspective, I dont think it should

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Midband will only affect you with radar pointed anyways

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High is useless

gentle stump
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yes it does?

VTOL has one of the most realistic simulations of jamming in video games😭

unreal dome
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Depends on how you stretch the definition of RWR, I think the Barracuda (f35 ew suit) and EPAWWS (f15e ew suit) can, but those are more than just "RWR"s, they're integrated EW systems

I don't know of any traditional RWR that can by design, jamming can cause false contacts or irradict behavior from RWRs, or otherwise degrade their performance

gentle stump
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there ya go then, f-45 can have it, but 4th gen don't

faint sierra
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Noise jamming is so rare to see anyways, even harder to pull off successfully

faint sierra
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I dont want the 45 to get a targetting track when I try to jam their radar

boreal raft
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Well no, because the false contacts and erratic behavour are something

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And a useful something

stone wagon
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😭

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You wouldn’t be able to target it either because you’re being jammed

boreal raft
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If I suddenly see 12 random bouncy ass contacts show up on my RWR, I know something happened in the environment

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It's situational awareness

stone wagon
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jamming a radar provides more false contacts than jamming an rwr

gentle stump
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oh my god

aircraft in VTOL could also go mach 50 and have 1000000000 missiles

stone wagon
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your rwr is now useless.

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such a great idea right?

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you can see that already

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With GPS lost

faint sierra
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But the radar already does that

stone wagon
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And your radar filled with noise

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High band doesn’t affect you

boreal raft
faint sierra
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Radar gives you a HMCS popup of the transmitter

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Free bearing

stone wagon
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Because then you’d be jamming for no reason

gentle stump
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I can say the same about you🤷

stone wagon
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If their radar is off the noise is useless for mid band

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💀

boreal raft
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It's easily half of my jammings

stone wagon
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Mid band noise only does something if your radar is pointed in that direction

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low band works from all angles

boreal raft
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People don't wait for you to be nose on, then turn on the jammer, then turn it off as soon as you turn away

stone wagon
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High does nothing

boreal raft
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They all tell me that someone is looking and paying attention to me

stone wagon
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💀

boreal raft
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Yes yes, you're so special

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That means nothing

stone wagon
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I use FRAZ to jam

gentle stump
boreal raft
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Radars are enhanced SA

faint sierra
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well

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Radars are the thing that let you fire in the first place

boreal raft
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No, radars were initially the thing that lets you find the enemy bomber

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Radars predate missiles

faint sierra
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In this game*

boreal raft
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In real life

stone wagon
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@boreal raft how would mid band noise jamming someone’s radar that isn’t on or pointed at you positively affect you when there’s a different radar actively looking towards you

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Just asking.

boreal raft
gentle stump
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I'd disagree, the 26 really doesn't seem that much more advanced than, for example, a block 50 f-16

boreal raft
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I don't care how fucking special you are, people jam people off their nose fucking constantly

stone wagon
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Only jam things that are actively using their radar

faint sierra
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bleh this is just devolving

stone wagon
faint sierra
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Personally I dont think it should from a gameplay balance perspective. Noise jamming isnt really common or useful in most scenarios.

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Ultimately, its not too much of a change I guess but I'm not entirely on board

stone wagon
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So how would you detect them with the rwr

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if it doesn’t appear there

gentle stump
stone wagon
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Also it’s not an EM receiver as chase and neo said

stone wagon
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And there wouldn’t be any burnthrough.

faint sierra
stone wagon
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because the rwr doesn’t send out its own waves

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it only detects

faint sierra
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Because this change suggest would just give extra RWR contacts or bearings for noise sources

stone wagon
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so I could literally just keep a missile in that cone the entire way and they would never know

faint sierra
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Bricking an RWR with noise could be interesting, but not sure if that how it works

stone wagon
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rwr shouldn’t display jamming

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only TSD should.

gentle stump
stone wagon
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:)

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meaning it’d be completely useless

faint sierra
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Would actually be a buff to noise jamming

stone wagon
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Yes you’d get a direction

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But would it be useful past that? No

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the MWS has a blindspot below and above so that’s wrong

faint sierra
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RWR used to be diamonds

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Now we just get bearings

stone wagon
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STT/TWS is possible with AESA

faint sierra
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Even they're slightly wrong and jump around

stone wagon
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High power targeting pods exist in real life

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:/

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Because that’s what rwrs do

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Because if they picked all that up the rwr would be useless

stone wagon
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good luck making any sense of the rwr

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so

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Ok

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Cool

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I guess

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You win

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I give up

gentle stump
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MWS I agree with
RWR has directional errors since 1.8
lock identification is also a thing IRL
IRL radars can also identify aircraft types and have very good aspect detection
STT track I agree with (but EASA radars can do this and and they are NOT future tech)
Our targeting pod ranges are actually kind of shit

faint sierra
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I half think the STT track thing is a bug

stone wagon
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lol

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or whatever they’re called

gentle stump
faint sierra
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They can but 26 doesnt seem like AESA

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Or at least I wouldnt think

stone wagon
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only the 45 has an aesa iirc

gentle stump
stone wagon
gentle stump
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why would it not be able to?

you've got the position of the aircraft via GPS to like centimeter precision and angle sensors on the TGP camera can easily give you extremely precise angle reading

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it's literally part of a TGP's job to give accurate positional data of what it can see😅

stone wagon
gentle stump
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if the tolerances are gonna be tight on something, then militairy equipment is 100% on that list

stone wagon
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you just slew TGP onto it or slew HUD!

boreal raft
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Getting accurate co-ordinates are tricky at real TGP ranges

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At the ranges in game it's a fucking joke

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Like, you might have trouble in the hundreds of miles, but not anything where the TGP works in game

gentle stump
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and yet that margin isn't enough to stop militaries using them for the EXACT purpose you're saying they can't do

stone wagon
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Haha no

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Radars and TGPs can give accurate to the centimeter gps coordinates

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That’s why JDAMs are so extremely accurate my dude

boreal raft
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Also the missile has it's own radar

round ermine
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I've only skimmed the thread, so I apologise if this has already been mentioned.

Realistically, jamming should appear on RWR, but it would appear in ways that would be confusing for most players.
Jammers typically appear on RWRs as the system being jammed.

So for example, lets say your wingman is behind you jamming a MAD-4. you wingman's jamming may now appear on your RWR as a MAD-4 behind you, possibly even a MAD-3 in Launch mode.

Whilst this might add some fun, I think it's a step too far for VTOL's level of complexity

boreal raft
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Or in the case of optical can also optical locking

gentle stump
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now you're working of of assumptions

we don't know the exact precision of an IRL TGP (or at least I don't)
but they 100% have been used at ranges longer than those in VTOL with enough accuracy to perform precision strikes

boreal raft
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Because it would be emitting on MAD-4 frequencies

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But in vtol it's just all mid band frequencies

stone wagon
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With 0 issue

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:/

round ermine
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Because the jammer is trying to confuse the MAD-4 by sending it false returns and those false returns must have the radar signiture of a MAD-4.

gentle stump
boreal raft
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Which is also why modern jets are way harder to jam btw

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Because they work on far more frequencies at once

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Yeah, it doesn't work that way in VTOL, but what he's saying is true for IRL

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As in AESA radars

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Also LPI radars in general

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Probably, EW is spooky classified shit

stone wagon
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But it’s still likr

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Super fucking easy

round ermine
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VTOL uses the term "Noise jamming" as a stand in for actual jamming techniques that have a similar outcome, but the idea that jammers send out noise randomly in a frequency range is not true to life

boreal raft
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IRL, jammers emit the frequencies of the radar they're jamming, in VTOL they emit on the whole frequency band

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They might have to starting now though

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Because modern radars emit across wider spectrums

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The bigger factor that makes it's jamming obvious isn't the frequency but the amount

round ermine
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This would be something that just isn't a thing IRL.
That's not really in keeping with VTOLs design philosophy

boreal raft
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What you should see is more like a lock on than a standard radar ping

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Which is honestly fine as an indicator

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And it would actually be kinda nice to see if I'm inside the jamming cone of my allies actually

gentle stump
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they don't show the jammign signal IRL😭

round ermine
boreal raft
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They show indicators of jamming IRL

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It's not specifically a jamming signal, but it's still pretty clear

gentle stump
boreal raft
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So if you're in a F16 and being jammed you're doing to see an F16 show up on your RWR pinging you really fucking rapidly

round ermine
gentle stump
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right, so they don't actually know they're being jammed

stone wagon
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🤔

boreal raft
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That's what a lock on is

stone wagon
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ok so with 8x the sound

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it’ll be 8x as annoying

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and now there’s 8 of those contacts there

gentle stump
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I'd be returning as a search signal right?
since it's trying to jam a search signal

round ermine
gentle stump
stone wagon
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then you’d just think it’s someone locking you

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💀

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but cool

boreal raft
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Probably higher, not sure, @round ermine ?

stone wagon
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Anyways Ima leave this thread

round ermine
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Whats the question?

stone wagon
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Gonna go have fun with the cat

boreal raft
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Also yeah, knowing I'm being jammed or locked is both useful, and both stuff you kinda deal with similarly, in either case it's the effective eye of sauron

round ermine
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so far as the RWR is concerned, the jamming looks identical to the radar that is being jammed.
That means an identical pulse repitition frequency

boreal raft
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Huh, fair enough

gentle stump
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so they only way you'd know if it's an jamming signal is by meta gaming essentially

boreal raft
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Wouldn't that make it easy for the radar to clean out?

boreal raft
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It's not really meta gaming, but it is pilot interpretation skills

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The RWR in vtol gives different signals for own an enemy team anyway (at least in HC, might be specifc to that)

gentle stump
boreal raft
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With radars operating at exact same frequencies

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Partially because of this exact scenario

round ermine
# boreal raft Wouldn't that make it easy for the radar to clean out?

The reverse.
Radars are great at filtering out responses they don't expect.
Different frequency? Filtered out.
Different PFR? Filtered out.
Late/early return? Filtered out.

Jammers work by "replying" to radars with returns that are close enough to what the radar expects so that they are not filtered, but far away enough to cause confusion

boreal raft
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In this case you're talking about how DRFM works in vtol, not how noise works

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Which is kinda mucky

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But if you're sending out equal PRF to the other radar, but at a substantially different rate then you can relatively easily identify which consistent PFR is the wrong one and ignore couldn't you?

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As in, if you don't directly respond to a ping hitting the jammer, your signal will be sent at an illogical/impossible time, and thus would be discernable as junk

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At least it could be

round ermine
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This is how all radar jamming works.
A very simplified example of a noisy return might be something like...
A radar sends a ranging ping to a target. It is looking for a response between 10-11 miles (the range gate). It sends this ping every two seconds.
The jamming aircraft receives this ping and notices the two second PFR. Not it can transmit several false returns both after and before the true return reaches the radar.
The radar now receives returns at 7,8,9,10,11,12,13 and 14 nm and has no way to tell which is the true return.

This is diffrent to RGPO in the DRFM mode, which sends a single false return that "walks" out of the radar gate

boreal raft
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Yeah but that's also how DRFM works in vtol, noise in vtol is across the whole band, constant and requires no knowledge of incoming radar signals

round ermine
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What makes you think that?

I mean, you are correct so far as the code is concerned, but if we didn't know that, we would have no way to tell.

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I guess because the jammer uses power, even when there is no emitter

boreal raft
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Mostly because it applies to multiple radars, and can apply before the first ping yeah

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You can jam several aircraft at once with one noise jam

round ermine
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It's been a long time since there was a jammer in service that could only jam one target at a time

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even the first ping jam isn't inconsistant

boreal raft
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Right, but it can't jam several aircraft without generating several aircrafts worth of reasonable signals

round ermine
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Yeah, although for all we know, that's what VTOLs jammers do

boreal raft
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I mean, except they use a consistent amount of power no matter how many radars are in the cone

round ermine
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I'll grant you that

boreal raft
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It's kinda a significant advantage of noise over DRFM

round ermine
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but we could come up with a half decent lore for why they do that if we wanted to

boreal raft
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I agree, but it's also the simplest, and correctest (per code) explanation

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Like, the other reasons are kinda just meta

round ermine
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Well...
There is no code for hydraulic systems in VTOL, but that doesn't mean we conclude that the landing gear doesn't use hydraulics.
It's best to fill in the gaps in the most favourable way

boreal raft
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I mean, you can probably make some weird explanation which includes why we don't have AESA radars in everything

round ermine
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heh. we kinda do

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we have weird hybrid azimuth scanning AESAs

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very bizzare

boreal raft
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And LPIless 35s

round ermine
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of course, this is all ok. VTOL makes simplifications.
What we mustn't do is to take those simplifications to their logical extremes and say "Because it appears that VTOLs noise jamming is always on, it must be distinct from normal radar returns, therefor it should be detectable by RWRs".
That's taking a simplification and using it to justify a complete fabrication

boreal raft
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True, but I'd also be happy with just getting a track from my own plane, that would be super handy

round ermine
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"track from my own plane,"?

boreal raft
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As in the RWR telling me that I'm getting pinged by another 45 if I'm in a 45

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For one because it's so obnoxious having to have a whole screen just so I can see poop bricks

round ermine
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yeah, you can see jamming on the 45s radar screen even when the radar is off, which doesn't really make sense

boreal raft
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I mean in the 45 at least the radar is always "on" it's just in either active or passive mode

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(Well, in the 35 it is)

round ermine
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Right, but without an expected return, you'd have no way to identify a jamming signal

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it doesn't make sense in that regard

boreal raft
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Yeah, right

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But also 45s can easily have their radar on, nose on the target but just no radar screen on their MFD

gentle stump
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actually now that you're saying that

if you get noise jammed from behind first, it wouldn't know what signal to copy right?

round ermine
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the reral solution is to remove passive jamming detection from VTOLs radars and have them only detect jamming when the radar is transmitting

round ermine
gentle stump
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right so we're back at the beginning😂

boreal raft
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Well, there's still the case of "radar on nose on f45 with no radar screen up" which is just a weird absense

gentle stump
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you have to be facing the target with radar on for it to know what to copy, but at that point you'll have the shit bricks anyway

boreal raft
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Should really show up on the TSD

gentle stump
round ermine
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well

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I think we have identified the real issues

gentle stump
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it's way too complicated to be a fun addition to VTOL

ah yes browning, I agree

/s

round ermine
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Removing the ability for radars to passively detect jamming and varying the power usage of jammers depending on if they actually have any radar to jam would make everything more logically consistent and closer to reality.
The lack of logical consistancy we currently have would suggest that the jamming could be detected via RWR (via the same magical method that inactive radars use).

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yeah, that's true

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I suppose some level of inconsistency is inevitable whenever a system is simplified

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Exactly, although i suspect there are other methods I don't know about

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unusualy powerful returns may also be a factor

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ha! yeah

gentle stump
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SAS jamming go brrrrrr

round ermine
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I was reading about the real world equivalent of SAS jamming last week. Super intresting stuff

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I gather the main technique is trying to send back returns that match the engine blade returns of a different target type.
By the time you are close enough to identify target types by other methods, such as target shape, you are close enough for optical ID anyway (although that may have changed with more modern systems for all I know)

boreal raft
round ermine
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and the pilots have absurdly bad eyesight XD

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unless it's ground targets

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if real ground targets were as easy to spot as they are in VTOL, things would be wacky

boreal raft
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And the passive sensors on the 35 are ass

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No IRST

round ermine
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and the DAS is very OP

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but what can ya do

boreal raft
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Only kinda, the DAS on a real 35 if you have a couple of planes has real advantages over the 45 version

round ermine
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well, in VTOL, the DAS can detect an infantry unit just minding their own business from 5nm away

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back in the first gulf war, they taped over some RWRs so pilots couldn't see them because the false returns from jamming (and the general unreliability of the RWRs) was causing more issues than it was worth

boreal raft
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But no triangulation of radar signals based on RWRs from multiple planes

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Gonna need some really accurate stopwatches too

gentle stump
boreal raft
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Not at the same level

gentle stump
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it can?

f-45 and ef-24 and ADM-160 increase triangulation speed

boreal raft
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Not anywhere near as well

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Like, passive tracks are a huge part of the targeting suite of a 35 (allegedly)

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They can (According to the sales people) get nearly exact co-ordinates very close to instantly

round ermine
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there is no way they are getting accurate ranging info

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except for static targets over time

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via triangulation

boreal raft
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They can, via triangulation, with multiple jets, allegedly

round ermine
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oh yeah, sure

boreal raft
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For air targets as well

round ermine
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yeah

boreal raft
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Now how much accurate is kinda hard to say

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Because sales people

unreal moat
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RWRs are extremely simple machines, they listen for the regular pings of a radar's PRF and classify the radar type based on an internal database, all other noise is filtered out because early RWRs that pick up cellphones are useless

The 24 can do it because it has a full ELINT system linked to the TSD, this is a more advanced piece of hardware that is used to locate jamming signals.

Not every aircraft has an ELINT.

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Having a digital processing system can't magic out an ELINT system, it's just a computer.

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This is wrong btw

ocean shadow
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Cool, another thread with hundreds of messages just a few hours after creation

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These are always fun

unreal moat
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Because if it were that simple, the cost and weight of putting an ELINT into an aircraft wouldn't be such a big deal in modern designs

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RWRs are super simple, most of the time they're not even digitally linked to anything, many are still analog

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The F-45 is the only aircraft that could have this upgrade and doesn't, that would be a software change because it can triangulate RWR tracks with datalink, which means it's linked to a full digital processing system

But even then it's still possible it's an analog RWR just linked to the TSD after the fact

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TLDR: radio is more complicated than you think

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It's based on modern US RWRs which cannot do what you're describing

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VTOL is trying to simulate real technologies, while our aircraft are fictional nothing they do is strictly impossible (yes even the g tolerances)

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Yeah sure it's technically possible to add ELINT hardware to everything but why

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Specialization is more realistic (cost effective) and more fun

lone sable
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Even if noise jamming is not used as much irl anymore it is in vtol, and noise jamming does not require much more than the operator deciding what band to jam on and where to point it

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What you described in your example is just drfm which is not what vtol is trying to replicate at all in it's noise mode

karmic oracle
lone sable
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I assume there is also the ability to jam without getting exact radar info preemptively but we can only guess how

karmic oracle
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good information on EW is kinda hard to get online

frank lantern
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I ain't reading all that so I don't know if this was mentioned but consider this. A jammer in DRFM mode is simulating a signal that your own radar is sending, reflected back at you. If your RWR picked those up, then it would also be picking up the real reflections of your own radar on the target. So it must either filter it out or isn't able to detect it

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I think browning did mention it actually

boreal raft
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Yeah, this is more noise jam, which doesn't work like that (in VTOL at least)

unreal dome
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I ain't reading all that
Kek CHAD

valid mango
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Because it was a useful analogy.

unreal moat
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It's also worth noting that noise jamming happens on the same bands as DRFM

The analogy works anywhere

unreal moat
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Usually from unmanned sources cause of HOJ

karmic oracle
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malds my beloved it applies to real life

unreal moat
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MALDs are real, after all

silver hearth
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STT and jamming are not the same, so no

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STT for Fox 1s is already confusing enough for new players or long returning players. Jamming is fine as is

unreal moat
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STT isn't just random noise, Heckler

lusty maple
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noise jamming and STT should not show up as the same thing on rwr

karmic oracle
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it could be like the arad screen where noise shows up as the noise beam and drfm doesn't show up at all, idk what would be different other then the rwr's extra sensor fusion with the msw system

unreal moat
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Pretty much just that RWRs are more simple than ELINT systems, there's a reason that RWRs don't work that way irl or ingame

small iron
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It is good, but there has to be some compromise so that the other aircraft that specializes in electronic warfare actually has more advantages

unreal moat
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Jamming looks less like a radar lock and more like someone using a radio

Do you want an STT lock because you fly past a cell tower?

unreal moat
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I give up, I think if you were trying at all you'd see the issue by now

lusty maple
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literally the game Dev said why it would not work

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why are we considering this

unreal moat
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Right?

I think bro is trolling

lusty maple
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do you know anything about how radar and noise is different

unreal moat
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We've collectively explained essentially a crash course on radio technology and the guy basically has gone "I can win any argument as long as I don't listen"

lusty maple
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RWR detects incoming radar signals which are concentrated at a point and on a specific frequency and a whole slew of other differentiating things

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dude

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there's no point in explaining why this wouldn't work

valid mango
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Jamming doesn’t look like STT, though.

lone sable
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I mean it just doesn't, an stt isnt even continuous wave, its going to have a multitude of variables that make it distinguishable even from other stt locks hence why an rwr can tell the difference between say an f-16 or f-18

unreal moat