Making the game better for ATC

[left yew]

What we have

• No ground view in ATC screen
• No runway diagram in ATC screen
• Like 2 whole taxiway signs out of all 3 airbases
• Waypoints that cannot be named, and do not show up in the ATC screen (what I mean is that in real life, waypoints have names such as "UMLAT"; These are pretty much random. In VTOL they cannot be named, randomly or by the mission creator. This means that waypoints cannot be used in the ATC sense)

What we want

• The ability to see ground aircraft in the ATC screen
• A runway/taxiway diagram overlay on the ground including: runway numbers, taxiways, taxiway names: only have to be one letter
• ACTUAL 👏 COMPLETE 👏 TAXIWAY 👏 SIGNS
• Nameable waypoints that show up on ATC screen and show their name

I know this is a niche topic, but please don't instantly be turned off by this

[swift pulsar]

Yessss

[left yew]

this is what I mean by naming waypoints

for example, an ATC can tell you to "Direct BISET" and you will fly directly to BISET

[left yew]

also please turn the spectator menu off when in the ATC seat baha

just makes things so much easier

[orchid prism]

Just use a waypoint and set as objective point.

This isn’t an ATC game, go play MSFS for that. This is a flight combat sim game

[left yew]

dude, I'm not asking for any weird "atc" shit, literally just for a name option in the regular waypoints

bc rn they just show up as their raw position data in the nav page

[orchid prism]

If it’s a good mission with good setup, it should have mission waypoints already programmed either into the objectives page, GPS points / path, or other

I think “fixes” ala general /commercial aviation aren’t in the scope of VTOL

[lavish light]

1: Agree
2: Agree
3: I swear this is already on one or more of the airfield types
4: Would be cool to have a "WPT" page accessible through NAV that you can use to select from a list of waypoints that could be named

but for now you can just use an objective

while we're on waypoints, it would be cool to be able to lock a waypoint to a unit i.e. a waypoint always 20nmi behind a moving carrier

[left yew]

nope, none of them have actual taxiway signs

they might have some taxiway signs, but this is what i want

taxiway lerrering

*lettering

afk

[left yew]

also while we're on the topic of waypoints, you should be able to select waypoints and use the path function to make a path that your autopilot can use

like say your ATC tells you to do the "UMLA1X" departure, and you get the departure charts up, you can just use the NAV function on your A/P to just fly straight to each waypoint

would work great for ILS too

since it can automatically get u at 3500 feet to capture the localizer

if baha added that i would actually [REDACTED]

[full vigil]

GO 👏 PLAY 👏 FSX 👏

not an ATC game

[orchid prism]

FSX is an 18 year old game...

[left yew]

i have fsx and fs2020

i choose not to play them because I like VTOL VR

There are at least 2k people who are members of VTOL atc communities

I'm sure they would like this, not your milsim

[orchid prism]

The way I see it, VTOL VR's ATC system for directing combat aircraft is better suited to other aircraft, like Fast FACs used in Vietnam. An aircraft, or group of, which can rely target, position, enemy, ally data to other allies

Well, one of the VTOL ATC communities is led by an unsavory individual, so that says enough about that one

[left yew]

fuck JJ but the other ones are good

[orchid prism]

Plus, CAW OPs aren't that serious. As long as the mission gets done and nobody fucks up royally, we're all just a big group of friends.

We have 2600+ members, only 500 of whom are mission qualled.

About 30% of those members are inactive or no longer active

[left yew]

between GFA and FSH, there are around 400 active players at one given time

[orchid prism]

VTOL isn't meant to be ATC focused, but it is a feature. Just like Low Tech, just like troop transport, just like the economy war mission that's been abandoned by the playerbase

It's a supplement to an already good game

[left yew]

exactly

i like game devs who cater to all parts of their playerbase

[orchid prism]

Nobody is perfect, and Baha tries but cannot cater to everyone

[sacred citrus]

I think its incredible that Baha included this ATC/Airboss thing with the spectator mode to begin with

[left yew]

i mean, clouds and frequencies was a big "fuck yeah" in the ATC communities when PT came out

[orchid prism]

LSO we begged for

Buddy lasing we begged for

[left yew]

only bad thing is no one plays PT anymore 😦

[orchid prism]

CAW does

[left yew]

but they play CAW

[orchid prism]

Yes, but you can both say funny comms stuff and blow shit up

win-win

[left yew]

we need randoms in our sessions otherwise it's kinda just me, an enforcer, and one dude flying an EF24 who instantly leaves airspace

[sacred citrus]

I'll admit, I was a bit hesitant and even somewhat against the idea of Baha adding ATC and such since this is VTOL VR. A flying game, not an ATC game.

[left yew]

an integral part of any flying is atc

[orchid prism]

Having an enforcer when people just want to fly around with comms is cringe, tbh tbh

If they don't follow the rules, just ban them

[sacred citrus]

However, seeing how Baha implemented it so neatly into the game, I'd say the fuss really was not worth it

[left yew]

people join ATC lobbies with the expectation of there being rules

we like to shoot them down before banning them, as that can be seen as unfair

[orchid prism]

I think running ATC comms with fighter jets is cool, when done in a combat situation

[left yew]

there have been many times where someone just didn't know how to play, and when they got shot down they asked how, instead of just getting banned

[sacred citrus]

I'd argue it never really has been in VTOL. It is a litesim after all, not an exact replication of reality.

[orchid prism]

Hell, before Multiplayer Mod, the only ATC was the in-game AI

[left yew]

and we all know how shit that is

[sacred citrus]

There is no main agency that is going to take away your pilots license for taking off the taxiway or slamming into the tower at Mach fuck.

[left yew]

yes, but ATC servers are listed as roleplay

[sacred citrus]

I will keep saying to people to suspend their belief in reality somewhat when talking about.. anything in VTOL, really.

[left yew]

you can, and will, be Brasher warned

i'd argue that even if you guys don't really want a tower revamp, there are many people that would benefit from one, including regular VTOL pilots

there's a reason why GFA and FSH are so big right now, and that's because people like having an ATC

I'm an ATC for FSH, and it makes my job harder when the ATC screen is half built

[sacred citrus]

You must understand though, I am not arguing against these improvements.
Even if at large this is a small aspect of VTOL which, being a rather niche thing is not always going to see use is still absolutely worth expanding.

[left yew]

wait you arent?

[sacred citrus]

Yeah

[left yew]

...

well ty then

[orchid prism]

I’m not strictly against it either, it just doesn’t mean a whole lot to the entire player base. ATC, apart from combat comms is a niche, like Green said.

[left yew]

i just got the negative vibes when joker replied

afk

[fair kettle]

This! Those lobbies are so cringe. They make me think of a kid playing with a ball who steals it and takes it home away from everyone else when people aren't listening to his rules and just want to have fun.

[left yew]

bruh, you can choose not to join ATC roleplay lobbies you know, right?

[limpid hull]

It’s for players who want to follow those rules. I don’t see why that can be an issue. Let people be as immersed as they want

Also literally nothing on this proposal I have an issue with, it all seems like a great expansion of what is already there

Honestly it’s weird we don’t have taxiway signs

[left yew]

ye what was baha thinking when he made the maps

he made like 2 taxiway signs on the medium one and then some intermittent turnoff signs on the runways

like wtf man

[orchid prism]

iirc, there are taxiway signs on the small and medium air bases.

[left yew]

yo what

show for all taxiways

[limpid hull]

I’ve never seen that yet. Huh.

[left yew]

might be new

are you on pt?

[lavish light]

i knew that they existed

[lavish light]

nah iirc they've been a thing since before ptb

[left yew]

what

[orchid prism]

They have been a thing for a while

[left yew]

i have never seen these before

are they on every taxiway tho?

[orchid prism]

Not every taxiway, no

[left yew]

ah

[orchid prism]

There used to be diagrams, but they got deleted off of reddit iirc

[left yew]

i thought u meant every taxiway

i need on every taxiway (:<

[orchid prism]

The lettering system is bunk too

[left yew]

how is it bunk

like what kind of bunk

[orchid prism]

Like nonsense

[left yew]

how nonsense

[orchid prism]

The short taxiways are A, B, C, D, etc. The long ones are later letters. Usually taxiways are lettered with early letters as long routes, later letters as short routes closer to runways

[left yew]

ah

welp, even any taxiway signs are good enough for me :p

as long as they are all there

and usable

[full vigil]

takes away time from developing stuff that most of the community would like instead of filling a niche that around 400 people would

[left yew]

funny thing, that's the same thing Emissary said to me the other day

[limpid hull]

A minimalistic amount of time compared to literally anything else

[left yew]

pov: simple MFD revamp vs emissary's circle jerk
emissary's circle jerk: OMG BAHA HAS NO TIME, HAS TO MAKE BETTER MISSILE

[limpid hull]

POV: any proposal vs some CAW 8 members

[full vigil]

that's just strawmanning

[left yew]

what about this says suggestions that he himself accepts will take away from his time

[full vigil]

https://tenor.com/view/nick-confused-say-what-young-gif-20141667

[left yew]

idc if he doesn't do it, but if he does do it that's on him for choosing this one to make

[lavish light]

im literally for your suggestions

[lavish light]

.

[left yew]

eh im talking about emissary and joker's little circle jerk

[limpid hull]

I think you fail to realize any suggestion is gonna take time away from things he’s working on

Or not because they’ll be a part of what he is working on

[full vigil]

^^^caw director

[lavish light]

dont call that caw

i literally own caw

[full vigil]

that

[left yew]

shit

[limpid hull]

Ah, just some of your members be like that then

[full vigil]

LOL

[lavish light]

yeah i mean 2683 people are in my server, 2 of them dont represent it

[full vigil]

caw is unrelated from any of my thoughts, my last op was like 2 months ago bc of college

[left yew]

they do when they post negative comments in 90% of the feature requests here

talking about emissary not u joker

[lavish light]

please explain how

are members of my server not allowed to express their opinion because they belong to said server?

does your opinion represent the entirety of FSH's?

[left yew]

no, but it gives me and others a bad impression of caw-8's members

[full vigil]

that's on you, don't overgeneralize

[lavish light]

okay well i am telling you now that caw-8 does not, as an organisation, have any opinions on any feature requests

say what you will about caw members

[brittle garden]

one person from the group disagreed, that must mean the entire group disagrees is the most schizo take

[left yew]

that's not what I said

[lavish light]

i wouldnt use such colorful language but yeah more or less dub is right

[brittle garden]

so how does it reflect negatively on the whole group then?

[full vigil]

https://tenor.com/view/edited-tf2-meet-the-medic-gif-22002258

[limpid hull]

I mean, is it too much of an assumption to say CAW-8 plays the game in a very unique and structured way, so people requesting things outside of that playstyle could cause friction within that group?

[lavish light]

yes

[limpid hull]

Even for a proposal

[full vigil]

Ngl, caw isn't nearly as structured as other people make it out to be

[lavish light]

extra features dont hurt our playstyle

[left yew]

good old human instinct, if one member of a group acts bad to you, you expect all members to act the same way

look

im sorry if i overgeneralized

[full vigil]

💀

[left yew]

it's just the last two posts I've made, Emissary has left negative comments on

[lavish light]

if you actually believe this way i would encourage you to actually experience caw and a caw op

[full vigil]

that's overgeneralization and not a human instinct, and it has lead to horrible things happening

[left yew]

I had to rewrite this whole post to meet emissary's "guidelines"

[lavish light]

listen man you're good, just sayin that hatin the community isnt rational 👍

[left yew]

dude

[limpid hull]

Maybe someday, I run a “squadron” (really just a squad of 4 idiots) and my 2IC and founder of the squad really wants to do something with y’all to see how it is

[left yew]

it is literally an instinct of most animals

[lavish light]

hey man i encourage anyone to try it out, even just for one op!

[limpid hull]

Aren’t most of your ops ran on private servers? At least, the last one I saw in had it

[lavish light]

yeah i mean join caw

and get qualed

and join an op

[limpid hull]

Coolio, I’ll talk with my bro about it

[left yew]

eh i might join but I don't like the combat shit

[limpid hull]

Hope part of those quals isn’t finishing 2359 💀

[left yew]

i always get shot down after flying and being bored for like 15 minutes

[full vigil]

quals are just there to make sure you basically just know how to fly the plane

[lavish light]

the qual is
be able to use all weapons
be able to air to air refuel
be able to land on the carrier

[limpid hull]

Oh yeah I can do that

I even did it without wings on the EF-24

[lavish light]

we do pve only so dont worry about getting fucked in pvp

[limpid hull]

SOLD

[left yew]

nope, i get fucked in pve too ):

[lavish light]

nice, just note we run specific recovery procedures that you need to know

CASE I and CASE III

[full vigil]

ever since you banned sundowners from being opfor

[limpid hull]

I know Case I, not so familiar with III

Do you call into the carrier on approach?

[left yew]

isn't III less than 500 feet visibility

[lavish light]

wdym

[left yew]

im used to landing airliners with code 1, 2, or 3 landings

code 3 you have to use autoland

[lavish light]

ceiling <= 1200

[limpid hull]

We should move away from this to DMs or #off-topic, maybe #vtolvr_chat cuz we hijacked this lol

[left yew]

lol

[lavish light]

yeah we can go to offtopic

[left yew]

200 messages 💀

[limpid hull]

Sowwy

[sacred citrus]

This is a moot point. Was the spectator mode not worth developing because it is too niche too?

Only a small subset of the community is going to use it, yet Baha created it and all of the ATC/LSO things for it anyway.

[swift pulsar]

^

Only thing is, trying to lso in public lobbies has a lower chance of working than recovering from rabies

[tall verge]

In general trying to be atc/lso in pubs can be messy which is kind of painful for everyone else

[tall verge]

?

Who ping..

[sacred citrus]

me, accident

[tall verge]

Why ping

grrr

[sacred citrus]

sorgy, aksident :c

[steady crest]

why r u bleeding...

[nimble rose]

what if we added nvgs for tower aswell

[left yew]

bob, why do you want to fry your eyes

[nimble rose]

nuh

im not an atc in fsh, you're the one getting your eyes fried

[left yew]

buh

i aint gonna turn that shit on if baha adds that

[simple brook]

So this is actually how most towers work IRL. They do not have a ground radar. Some don't even have a CTRD(certified tower radar display). I think the solution to plane on the ground would be to add a strip system that would make it possible to remember the callsigns of the aircraft on the ground or maybe just a paper and pen. The solution isn't a ground radar because for the size of the airports in vtol they would never have one.

[left yew]

I would love it if people called in their hangar number(which irl you're supposed to do) as I've memorized the FSH diagrams. What "strip" system are you talking about?

[simple brook]

What your supposed to do is call at the non movement line where you have line of sight with the tower.

For instance there is a printed strip from a flight plan but for vfr it would just be blank

[left yew]

ah i see

i feel people still wouldn't know how to use that :p

there are usually so many squeakers i have to act as a ground enforcer as well as tower

[spice gate]

This idea is literally perfect for a niche game play for communities and/or just regular flight missions

[sacred citrus]

suspend your belief in reality a bit when talking about things in VTOL

it does not necessarily need to be 1:1 with what real life does

[simple brook]

That's fair

[spice gate]

True, bur what he stated in this original post is pretty good

Just a niche lil NAV map and creating waypoints

[simple brook]

If it makes it easier for 5 year olds to hop into spectator mode then i don't really care

[sacred citrus]

I could see Baha essentially just adding a big NAV map alongside the existing radar to help coordinate things

that way whoever is in said tower could see both callsigns on the ground as well as in the air

and receive more direct information via the large radar map

[left yew]

this

[spice gate]

Yeah fr

It won’t take much effort I suppose literally just a nav map

Or even better… a nav map screen on the radar

A nav-map screen integrated onto the radar

That way you can see a map screen plus current radar transitions at the same time

[left yew]

THIS

[nimble rose]

forced night vision goggles for tower

even in day maps

[full vigil]

This is a vr air combat simcade game

[simple brook]

👍

Just my take

[tall verge]

(most people literally have no clue what the hangar numbers are 💀)

• I operate from aircraft carriers in game, so I don't really remember that shit anyway

[nimble rose]

Oh right, we have hangar numbers

[left yew]

If people said their hangar numbers I wouldn't be asking for this lmao

[tall verge]

I said they don’t KNOW the hangar numbers

💀

[left yew]

exactly, they don't

that's why i need to be able to see where they are on the ground

[tall verge]

You implied that they just don’t say them

[left yew]

ah

well sorry for the misconception

[frigid trellis]

that is YOUR experience of the game, alot of us like to role play, and yes, if the atc tower was set up the way Houdini has suggested i would try it

[spice gate]

I like this

1 screen, NAV and radar built in at the same time

[swift pulsar]

I wish I could thumbs up this but I'm not paying for nitro

[spice gate]

U dont need to

[swift pulsar]

It won't let me add a non super reaction

[nimble rose]

Check the other reactions

Removing my super one tho

[swift pulsar]

thanks. I could only see the 2 super reactions before. Discord mobile is weird I guess

[tall verge]

Mainly because Baha is one dev, it takes time to do things

I disliked this suggestion originally because in my eyes it wouldn’t fit the 1.10 update since it had already been pushed into PTB with Frequencies and buddy lasing along with weather..

I only dislike some suggestions without much comment on it when I feel it doesn’t suit the game as it’s in its development

On plane suggestions I like to make points on why it’d be a bad idea and try to get people to come with good ideas for why it should be added

But I had very little to say about this as I barely understood the request and we were already getting frequencies

I don’t really do ATC stuff anymore, I used to, not anymore as I’m more attracted to milsim.

I’m thus generally biased towards gameplay changes rather than roleplay changes

Like new missiles and weaponry, more target diversity and so on.

[left yew]

tbh i think this would be a gameplay change...

but I get what you're saying here

[tall verge]

I do not as I feel it wouldn’t really change the core gameplay which is;
Join game
Start plane
Take off
Shoot bad guy
Have fun
Die (optional)
Land at base (optional)

[left yew]

the only thing I dislike is instantly trying to find only bad things about the idea, whereas a "this is good, but it could be better" approach could probably generate a better response from others

[tall verge]

It’d change ATC roleplay lobbies, Yes, but I don’t do those, so this doesn’t really interest me much, so I think that baha should work on other things instead

[tall verge]

I often make the same points to most posts;

is it carrier capable?
we already have this in game, what new things could it introduce?
can it make a grilled cheese? (Optional)

[visual sundial]

none of us know how important ATC roleplay is to baha, it is a secondary playstyle, distinct from the combat flight game VTOL is.
Baha has already added Spectator ATC and LSO (out of nowhere may i remind you) which is more than is expected from a combat flight sim (i don’t think DCS or BMS have that)

[tall verge]

But most posts I see is just things we already have in game

[tall verge]

Yeah

[left yew]

Yes, but at points I see you being way too broad with your "already in the game"s

for example, in https://discordapp.com/channels/319915885575798785/1262824686518145024 we were trying to think of ideas as to what it could be, and came up with a bomber aircraft

[tall verge]

MiG31;
High speed interceptor

EF24:
Max speed so far; Mach 3.1 empty, mach 2.5 loaded.
Carries the most powerful player used radar in game
Has the longest range air to air missile in game

[left yew]

you focused on being able to drop bombs in the FA26, which is one of the secondary purposes of that aircraft

[tall verge]

It can carry upwards of 33 bombs

[left yew]

a dedicated bomber aircraft is an entirely separate use case, as carpet bombing is more of an option

[tall verge]

Most missions do not even have that many targets that need bombs

[tall verge]

you could do this with two or three fa26s

Carrying almost 100 bombs total

With air to air missiles or extra air to ground

I do not see “more bombs” as a gameplay feature sorry

:/

[left yew]

exactly, you are focusing on one particular aspect of the game, bombing; but there are quite a lot of differences between the FA26 and a bomber

[tall verge]

Yes, the bomber can be seen from across the map and can’t outmaneuver an aim54

:/

it’s better to just let the AI fly the bomber as it’s just fly to one place and drop bombs.

[visual sundial]

« less is more »
-Sun Tzu (aledgedly)

[tall verge]

^

I’d rather have a few planes that can do a lot than many planes that are super limited.

[tall verge]

But back to this

I myself do not really see the importance of ATC stuff

Which is why I originally gave this a thumbs down

I’ve begun changing posts I’m neutral about to use the neutral face emoji instead.

But outright attacking CAW because I disagreed with something was a bit outlandish

CAW has nothing to do with my opinions on things :)

[left yew]

welp that's "awake for 36 hours" me for ya

[tall verge]

My opinion was simply; I do not see why it should be added when baha has already given you guys plenty without you guys asking for it..

[visual sundial]

"the views of the hosts do not represent the views of the DoD or any subordinate office"

[tall verge]

Hell you guys even got your own frequencies and ILS stuff too

:/

I understand the need for more

But sometimes we have to let baha do what he desires

He’s a single man

[left yew]

That's a direct benefit to the ATC community but if I can't use the spec cam tower, what is there to it?

[tall verge]

And something like this would be for the minority of the playerbase

[left yew]

it's definitely not a 1%

[tall verge]

I see more people in milsim and actual combat than the ~10% that do ATC.

[left yew]

more like a 20-25%

[tall verge]

still would be a minority in a combat focused game

[left yew]

Our servers are regularly full...

[tall verge]

Cool

I share no interest in ATC stuff which is why I do not see a point in baha spending time on such.

if it were up to me the game would be fully carrier focused

[left yew]

I share an interest in ATC stuff which is why I see a point in baha spending time on such

[tall verge]

Okay

Good for you

I simply stated my opinion on your feature request.

[tall verge]

.

AirBoss would be the ATC, and it has cams in the spectator cam slot

LSO is to guide people in

That’s it

[left yew]

honestly if it were up to me, you could do everything in the game you want

[tall verge]

ok

cool

I think that settles it

I made my point clear about how I reply to posts

:)

I hope you didn’t see this as rude or condescending as I in no way meant for it to come off as such

[left yew]

i recommend staying away from "ok, cool" that sounds very condescending, but otherwise your opinion is solid, just not what I personally would believe in

[tall verge]

I use it as a neutral reply to things that I acknowledge what people say, not trying to be rude with it 😅

[vagrant bramble]

once again, Your on someones post not trying to add anuthing positive, Just imposing your opinion and telling them how shit it is and how hugely stupid it was to even suggest it.

[visual sundial]

how is that a problem ?
Nobody is imposing any opinions, just sharing them. If his opinions are negative, that’s how it is.