Accurate Proximity fuses and G-Limits

[tame grotto]

Balance and fun is more important than realism in a game that is all fiction.

That said having the option to make missiles harder to avoid might be nice. It should definitely not be the default.

[thorny nebula]

bro really pulled out the war thunder stats 💀

[mild pasture]

You can g-pull a missile capable of 1,000g if the missile's speed is either too high or too low.

I strongly suspect the 120s in VTOL are perfectly capable of more than 35g.

[fresh lava]

I'm not saying it should be 1-1 realistic. We don't even know what that means. But there is definitely a better balance. There are also proper ways to defeat missiles that aren't used at all now.

[thorny nebula]

missile in game already have fusing distance as well

[sturdy geyser]

max Gs are less immportant than enegry

[fresh lava]

But you can G-pull a missile that has just come off the rack

[native fossil]

They are, the people quoting the vtol 120s being only able to pull a few g's are incorrect.

I regularly see 25+ and 35+ for fast missiles

[sturdy geyser]

the missiles are pointed the wrong way if it just got fired

[mild pasture]

The 54 may be able to pull more g than the 120 just because of it's speed, but it is easier to g-pull the 54

[sturdy geyser]

or it still has no KE

[mild pasture]

@native fossil is this correct?

[native fossil]

54 produces less torque at a given airspeed than the 120 in vtol, idk if the math works out that there's a regime where it pulls more, it might

[mild pasture]

I suspect it's at least close

[fresh lava]

So am I wrong? I feel like G-pulls are unrealistic? If so then i rest my case. I just feel like missles move so slow in the game compared to RL.

[thorny nebula]

even in dcs aim-120s can be g-pulled (both in a weird energy bleeding way and the traditional way seen in vtol)

[native fossil]

If gpulling is or isn't realistic is a hard question
But, both VTOL and DCS have gpulling, and the math/logical steps we can follow to see why all seem to check out

So it seems pretty likely gpulling is realistic, at least to some degree. Its as easy as it is because we can pull 14g not just 9, and because we have extremely good SA

But also, none of that really matters, all that matters is the fun/balance of the game, which I think is fine as is

For the 26b that is

[thorny nebula]

the only thing vtol amraams lack is off the rail maneuverability, but its honestly fun for balance

[native fossil]

the 45 should not be able to gpull, the glimiter needs to handle non-+Y axis

[mild pasture]

They are and they are not.

Can a F-16 g-pull 120s?
Yes, the aircraft is certinally capable of that.

Would a pilot ever attempt this?
Ehhh.... Maybe in desperate circumstances.

It happens in VTOL lots because we don't fear death and we can learn from the mistakes that kill us, so we get good at this kind of skill. Real pilots can't do that

[fresh lava]

Fair points all around.

[tame grotto]

We also get to warp the air frame in such a way that the plane might never be air worthy again.

Why yes I watched Top Gun: Maverick this week why do you ask?

[fresh lava]

top gun got me into sims so +respect

[mild pasture]

Even if it was 100% unrealistic (which it isn't), I would still want to keep it because it's a fun challenge to learn and even more fun to do.

[tame grotto]

Speaking of flying my flight is about to take off and this plane does not have wifi so I will see you all later.

Fun trumps realism for this game. If I want to get my ass beat by realism I will play DCS. Though it sounds like it is actually realistic.

What I wanna know is how to defeat MAD-4 missiles more reliably. Those fuckers hurt.

[thorny nebula]

it makes vtol pvp different from something like dcs, in a really fun and unique way

[thorny nebula]

terrain, chaff or DRFM jamming are your best options

[mild pasture]

Some other things make it easier in VTOL, such as our RWR displaying accurate range information.

[fresh lava]

That is a fair point btw. I tend to lean to more realism. But unfortunately I don't want to spend literal years learning anymore DCS modules (the f/a 18c was hard enough), plus VTOL actually simulates a lot of things better than DCS. Like actual immersion for example. And things like RCS, Thermals, etc.

[bright depot]

Good suggestion, it's been my gripe for awhile that the meta to dodge missiles is to g pull inside the turn circle of the missile. Kinda ruins BVR when a FA-26 can remain hot the entire time, while I'm cranking, beaming and going cold to try and avoid missiles. G pulling for me is pretty boring and seems much for fun when two opponents are using actual BVR tactics lob missiles at each other and get a kill.

[fresh lava]

This is what i want to fix. However it can be fixed. This is the actual problem i have

[thorny nebula]

if you want fight people that use more realistic tactics dcs is probably the better game for you

[fresh lava]

that's a terrible response

[native fossil]

I personally don't think gpulling is meta, I dodge maybe 1 in 20 missiles by gpulling it

[mild pasture]

I'm a big fan of high PK BVR tactics.
But I think I'm an even bigger fan of the way VTOL BVR with two very skilled players playing perfectly always comes down to a guns fight unless one makes a mistake earlier.

[thorny nebula]

its an accurate response, they are different games with different play styles, its the same as telling someone that they might find more realism in squad rather than battlefield

[bright depot]

I definitely want to check out in the future, just have not had the ideal living situation and time or funds to get into it, hopefully soon. But VTOL VR is pretty close to being real, and I had the equipment to play it.

[mild pasture]

Nah, I agree bitz, I don't think "play a different game" is ever a valid response to a suggestion.
It says nothing about how good or bad the suggestion is

[thorny nebula]

well we already explained why we think its a bad idea, its the ultimate result of what we explained
"its not a good fit for vtol but dcs is exactly what your looking for"

[mild pasture]

I do like that g-pulling is much harder now.
If you want to make it harder still, then the best way to do that would be to further remove the range accuracy of the RWR

[mild pasture]

Yeah, I can see that also.
Maybe some tone lost in text

[thorny nebula]

probably

[fresh lava]

I'm being ratio-ed either way, it appears the majority want G-pulling. I'm fine either way really. I just hate that when i fly an aircraft other than the 26 against a 26. They just G-pull my missiles, stay nose hot on me while i'm forced to go cold because i can't G-pull. I don't mind aircraft having strengths and weaknesses (obviously) but i do feel like it's a problem. I witness a lot of 26s G-pull me. It makes me feel like missile spam is my only option and nobody likes 120 spammers

[thorny nebula]

I think each aircraft has advantages that make it a fun or fair fight against the 26, chaffing in particular only forces you to go to the beam rather than fully cold

[bright depot]

I know most people wont agree, but what about removing the g limiter? Or decreasing the blackout time when pulling high gs, and actually have g lock where you can no longer make inputs to controls when blacked out? Might take away some incentive to g pull.

[native fossil]

The pilot is already anemic, making em even weaker wouldn't be good

[thorny nebula]

he is like 5 feet tall, so his g tolerance should actually be really good

[mild pasture]

I like 120 spammers!

I heavily rely on g-pulling and love it when it's a challenge.

The spam is a skill also. Ripple your 120s too close and they pull like a single missile. Ripple then too far and it's easy to recover airspeed between pulls.
6-8 seconds is a good gap at long range, less than that if the range is short.

Mixing missile types is even more effective. If I have a AIM-7 and a 120 attacking me at the same time, it's a nightmare as I need a sustained pull for the 7 as timing it right by looking range is impossible, but that sustained pull will bleed off the speed i need for the 120.

54/120 mixes also mess up timing.

Against me personally, I estimate other people's pk% at something like:
1x120: 20%
2x120 well spaced: 50%
3x120 well spaced: 85%
120+7 well spaced: 75%
120+54 well spaced: 65%

I'm likely over estimating my skill here

[tame grotto]

G-pulling is great until you lose all your speed yes.

I should try mixing up 120s and 7s.

[thorny nebula]

mixing all sorts of missiles can be super effective

heaters and aim-120s is a good combo

or aim-120s and aim-54s

[subtle glade]

I'd like to bring back the argument point for larger proximity zone / warhead blast fragmentation pattern and area of effect.

Use them as supression weapons rather than direct kill weapons perhaps. Useful for the heli maybe?

[abstract kiln]

👀 Only 58 comments?

On a thread about gpulling?

[subtle glade]

Well, it hasn't been active in almost three months. I just want better prox fuzing

I could care less about G-pulling

[abstract kiln]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/319915885575798785/1270990623884972043/image.png?ex=66e1e002&is=66e08e82&hm=81a34aeb73c6d4b35c093c9157dddf9cf4901f1a6cb771f92253f509e41011fc&
Clip from a fairly efficient gpull I did earlier, guestimating the missiles 3 f26-heights away which is 15m?

[subtle glade]

I guess prox fuzing would inhibit low-effort G-pulling, so I'm all for it

[abstract kiln]

I see a popular mechanics 💀 article saying aim-9's blast radius is 30 ft, so a 15m gap between missile and airplane having low pk would make sense

[mild pasture]

Consider that making the prox fuse larger would lead to some premature donations.
It is already the case in VTOL that under cerian edge cases, the 120 can prox outside of it's blast radius.

[native fossil]

would lead to some premature donations.
The way the fuse is modeled should prevent that, the missile only detonates once its at its "closest point"

[alpine pollen]

in my eyes if a strategy forces someone to die, then it's not cheaty, its just a good strategy

you shouldnt be ashamed of rippling multiple missiles