🤔｜theories

[azure bay]

Or maybe Bob is suitable for this job due to his mental state

[long smelt]

Yeah

[azure bay]

either susceptible to their influence or easy to kidnap

[long smelt]

Yeah your right.

[azure bay]

I mean without causing suspicion

[long smelt]

That:s a good point.

I need to go know though. I will come back a nother time.

[azure bay]

cya

[floral mauve]

team work makes the dream work

now he got a sister

[long smelt]

Wait, if Laura is William. Does that mean Laura is Mr Crows sister?

[analog yacht]

She's reincarnated William, she's not William directly

[covert wyvern]

theres surely no blood relations involved

[analog yacht]

Not in the usual sense anyways XD

[long smelt]

Why does Emma look old? She is the same age as Albert and Samuel. And they dosen't look old.

[analog yacht]

Stress makes you look older ig

Or unlucky genes

[long smelt]

Okay

There is a theory that the Rusty lake hotel guests are the Eilander family.

[azure bay]

That's the consensus

[long smelt]

Yeah.

And what we see from Rusty lake Paradise. Mr Owl is Jakob and Caroline.

[azure bay]

objection!

1. Owl doesn't identify himself as Jacob period

2. He lacks her knowledge of the elixir formula

3. Owl says that a great sacrifice was needed for him to become something else

[long smelt]

But in the ending of Rusty lake Paradise. We see that Caroline and Jacob merge and becomes Mr Owl. After Jacob dies.

[azure bay]

or we see Jacob absorbing Caroline

[long smelt]

Well we see Mr Owl in that ending

[azure bay]

We'd see Owl in any way

no matter if he's Jacob or Caroline

[long smelt]

Well it's the only time we see something close to Mr Owls birth.

[azure bay]

Owl is another product of the elixir of life and death

and the rule for it to work is consistent

"one is sacrificed in the other's favor"

this rule is even stated in Caroline's own book

[long smelt]

Oh.

Well Caroline is definitely Mr Owl. Her animal is a owl.

[azure bay]

That's her potential form. That doesn't mean she has fulfilled that potential

and, once again, that wouldn't make sense

that breaks established laws

that creates plot holes

[long smelt]

Well why would Jacob and Caroline merge?

If they didn't become Mr Owl?

What was the point of that?

[azure bay]

absorbing Caroline's soul energy

[long smelt]

Yeah, but Jacob dosen't become anything.

[azure bay]

but he does

[long smelt]

What is he then?

[azure bay]

owl

[long smelt]

Yeah, that's what I said. Jacob and Caroline is Mr Owl.

[azure bay]

no

Jacob is Owl

Caroline's fate is uncertain

[long smelt]

But why would Jacob become Mr Owl? Carolines animal is a owl.

[azure bay]

And Jacob's as well, I reckon. He's the one taking the Owl mask from the cave

[long smelt]

Why would they have the same animal?

[azure bay]

see no Problem

Dale is another Deer

[long smelt]

And Albert. He is also a deer.

[azure bay]

Albert doesn't get enlightenment

it's probably irrelevant for him

[long smelt]

Well we can't say 100% that Dale is a deer. He technically never have died in the series yet. So he didn't become a deer yet.

[azure bay]

and nevertheless we see him twice in that emploi

from 2 different perspectives

[long smelt]

Why does it matter if Dale has an animal to represent him?

[azure bay]

because he's Mr. Owl's successor

him becoming like Owl is his arc

more so, overcoming Owl

[half elm]

In some depictations of Samsara in the game, a Deer is shown to be the 'God realm'

For that reason, I see him wearing a deer skull as symbolism for his control over the family. He specifically wears it when performing magic with his voodoo dolls

[half elm]

Premature aging! Everything that happens in your body is because of genes — but can also have enviromental factors. One of them stress, which was the likely cause of hers

[azure bay]

I'd rather say that it's Dale the Deer who's teased to become a god

[floral mauve]

I also wonder why they didnt make Dale the next Owl since Owl seems to be the symbol of lake Ruler

probably Dale is more than Lake ruler

Lake god?

[azure bay]

we had only one ruler so far

[floral mauve]

what I meant is the symbol of Owl seems to be the chosen one characteristic

thats why I thought Jakob is the chosen one and somehow he still gonna fall back to animal stage

[half elm]

Yep, I think so too! I just think it's used as symbolism to show that Albert is some kind of "god" of the family (not literally like Dale)

[azure bay]

I personally wouldn't recognize that

[vale marsh]

I can see that. It could also apply to Jakob's father.... since he was kinda "playing God" with the rituals.

(Jakob is how it's spelt... right?)

[floral mauve]

they use Jakob in the original game but I usually see name Jacob more often

[vale marsh]

Ah okay.

[half elm]

I was about to say that too!

[azure bay]

Why didn't they ever place Owl there?

he's the one with the god syndrome

[vale marsh]

Now, this is just a wild guess... but what if there can only be one "owl" at a time? Same for rabbits and the others.

[azure bay]

there are many asuras implied

[vale marsh]

What's an asura?

[azure bay]

did you learn Theatre's lesson?

[vale marsh]

I don't fully understand it yet, but I did read a little bit.

Theater's mill section shows the Samasara wheel, right?

[azure bay]

asuras are demons or demi-gods from samsara wheel

[vale marsh]

Oh yeah. I think it said it was considered a dark section (or maybe the page said it was an "evil" section?)

[azure bay]

dunno about that

but they are considered higher than humans

and represented by Crow on known wheel imagery

Owl, the guests and the crew are all expected to be asuras

and there are many more of them

enough to make Rabbit's and Pheasant's showbiz worthwhile

[vale marsh]

Okay, maybe the page I was looking had strange wording.

Their reasoning seems to be that the Asuras are enemies of Devas

[azure bay]

inspired doesn't mean copied

[vale marsh]

???

Look, I know next to nothing about Buddhism. I'm just grabbing any scrap of info I can find. Anything I say about the wheel could be wrong.

[azure bay]

I'm saying that things right about the wheel could be wrong about RL

[vale marsh]

Ohh okay.

That makes sense.

Something that interests me is that, according to the rl wiki, the wheel temporarily has all stages shown as "hell". I think it said it happens when you solve it.

[azure bay]

What is that about?

[vale marsh]

Idk. I haven't had a chance to play theater since I read that.

Nvm. It said it happens the last time you talk to Mr. Owl.

[azure bay]

ah

I seem to get it

I guess it's a bug

[vale marsh]

Might be.

So, looking at the wheel, it said that the corrupted souls are preta/"hungry ghosts".

Which is backed by Paradise, where Jakob's mother wrote that in....

Wait I just realized I've been staring at the wheel in the book this entire time.

[azure bay]

and it's extra weird there

[vale marsh]

I was going to say that the talk of preta being fueled by addiction or obsession can be linked to the known CSs (give or take Laura. Will need to do more digging), but now I'm curious how Jakob's mother figured out the wheel so quickly.

[azure bay]

the cult knew about enlightenment

I guess it's knowledge passed down through generations

[vale marsh]

Maybe.

[azure bay]

the real achievement on Caroline's behalf is the elixir

[vale marsh]

True.

[vale marsh]

What I meant by the CS bit is that the a lot of the known Corrupted Souls had some obsession or addiction that could tie back to why they are this way:

Mr. Boar: opium addiction
Mr. Deer: Either alchohol addiction or an obsession about the lake itself.
Mr. Rabbit: I honestly do not know... but he was always so desperate for our attention during his night I wonder if that is a reason.
Ms. Pheasant: either fame or some sort of compulsion.
Ms. Pigeon: I think it could be an obsession over the memory extraction. So much so that she was willing to torture/kill a child for her research.

Now, the "humans" I'm not so sure about. Their transformations are typically linked to improper memory extraction or sacrifice. However, I wanted to see if I could fit them in anyways.

Bob: possibly Laura.
Caroline: Now, I'm not so strong about this, her scrambled notes could imply an obsession over her research. I doubt it, however.
Laura: I legitimately have no idea. I feel like her mental health factors into this, but I feel like I know more about Harvey than her.
Dale: You might be surprised that I'm putting him in this list. But given Paradox chapter 2 I think he is either partly corrupted (think "The White Door") or is on the route to becoming one without proper intervention.
Why? Laura. His actions in Theater imply an unhealthy obsession with getting the answers to this case. Mr. Crow and the others telling him to "embrace" and "use" his corrupted soul could mean that he needs to accept his actions to fulfill his destiny.

Do I think this is 100%. No. But... I think it could be an interesting interpretation of the events of Hotel and Paradox.

[azure bay]

looks fetched for me

[vale marsh]

Which part?

[azure bay]

the obsession idea as a whole

you marked the holes yourself

some others aren't obvious for me

[vale marsh]

I think the main reason I wanted to follow through on it, aside from Boar being the real obvious connection, was trying to connect Bob and Dale's experience with corrupted souls.

But... I feel like Dale himself is an anomaly. I purposely left out the events of the Cave as I currently have no idea how that fits in.

Unless the events of Paradox take place while he's in the machine.

[azure bay]

that's what I'm sure about

[vale marsh]

(From what I understand of it) Dale temporarily becomes a corrupted soul, Laura temporarily uncorrupts, and Dale leaves with a golden cube.

Wait.... what if, while Dale is experiencing the events of Paradox, Laura is experiencing the events of Seasons?

[azure bay]

the idea isn't new

but they look nothing alike

[vale marsh]

The only reason I'd think of it is because of how it ends: We see a corrupted Laura uncorrupt at the end. We also witness Laura die to the hands of a corrupted soul... but we are also apparently playing as her.

Like how Dale sees a corrupted soul Kill Laura.... but we also play as said corrupted soul.

The stranger thing is how the transition to the Lake in Paradox is some sort of forest. I mention that because there is a forest at the bottom of the lake, which both Dale is in during the Cave and Harvey sees in Hotel. The souls of Hotel seem to be trapped there.

In Theater, the forest is (apparently) given the stage of Hell in the wheel.

[azure bay]

that doesn't have to be THAT forest

[vale marsh]

By "that" forest are you referring to Paradox's forest?

[azure bay]

1. the forest in Paradox is still in Dale's mind
2. if it recreates the reality, there are forests around the lake

[hollow igloo]

Seeing that the entirety of Paradox is in Dale’s mind, the forest is in his mind too. Given the aesthetics, especially the fog, I assume that forest represents that in the depth of the lake (we know Dale traversed it, so it is possible that he was able to somehow recreate it in his mind). The transition between that forest and the lake’s shore could be just his mind

The same forest is most likely the one seen in Theathre and seasons, the red one. That has an hellish aesthetic indeed

[azure bay]

I disagree

the forest in Paradox has infrastructure

[vale marsh]

(Screenshot taken from RL's The Cave walkthrough video)

I just think, since the two are stuck in a big white cube in a forest at the bottom(?) of the lake, maybe there was a chance he'd accidentally wander out his chair and try to walk in the lake-forest.

At the very least, I am 100% positive this is the forest shown at the end of Hotel

[azure bay]

the forest in Paradox has infrastructure

walls, roads, wooden structures, lumberjacking

[vale marsh]

Who says this forest doesn't have it either? If I had to guess, we've only know that we've been here two or three times tops. Maybe four. Who knows.

[azure bay]

it's not meant to be visited by humans

while the forest in Paradox has signs of civilization

[vale marsh]

Where is it in seasons, again?

[hollow igloo]

You can see it in the TV and when dealing with the mushroom

[vale marsh]

It also has a ||decapitated deer|| still standing upright as well as ||Dale hanging from a tree||.

Ah... the hellshroom, as I like to call it. That music always gets me tense.

[hollow igloo]

That could be the influence of Dale’s mind. It doesn’t have to be an exact replica

Maybe he added some signs of civilisation

[vale marsh]

Tbh, I think Dale watching Dale run in the forest is a red flag all on its own.

[azure bay]

why would he? the outside part looks to me like more or less accurate landscape recreation

[hollow igloo]

Wdym by “the outside”?

[azure bay]

when he leaves the room

plus, I don't see 2 things I'd expect to meet in that forest:

• the cubes
• the guests

Only Dales in many forms

[sly zephyr]

Hallo

I wonder about rusty lake story... Its complicated like FNAF

[hollow igloo]

Again, the statement “it’s all in his head” could justify everything. A bit of a stretch, I know. But this could be the answer to everything. It doesn’t need to be an exact representation of that forest. I say that is the forest just for aesthetics: given the context, and the fact that the white cube is deep down the lake, it could make sense. We can associate the Giant Cube with the Paradox Room, and so the outside would be the surrounding forest.

And in that context, the focus is on Dale and nothing else, so maybe that is why he only sees the alternate versions of himself

[hollow igloo]

A bit complicated, yes

[vale marsh]

We do see corrupted souls before he leaves his room and such... I think.

The chapter 2 forest has a live action version of Dale for crying out loud!

[azure bay]

ok, in that way that could work. But the other cubes are still a letdown for this theory

[vale marsh]

There's two ways you can look at the plot imo: take everything at face value, or try and go deeper.

[azure bay]

you can't take everything at face value. Neither you can overthink everything

[vale marsh]

We see all the cubes save for the blue one.

[azure bay]

I don't get you

[vale marsh]

Black cubes: Chaper 1 & 2 normal endings.
White cube: Chapter 1 hidden ending.
Golden Cube: Chapter 2 hidden ending.

[azure bay]

I wouldn't go that way. The black cubes are Dale's memory of Paradox that turn white after he sacrifices himself

but I'm speaking of the cubes that are meant to float around the forest

[vale marsh]

And I still think looking at the world at face value is fine. It can be fun to just accept the plot as it happens sometimes.

[hollow igloo]

The problem is that except for some clear facts, some parts of the story are confusing.

[azure bay]

Emma sees the guest escape and Harvey's death 3 years earlier, sends a goodbye letter with the parrot and chills for 5 more years before ending her life?

[vale marsh]

Which one is Emma again?

[azure bay]

the sad mother

[vale marsh]

Wait when did Harvey die?

[azure bay]

did you 100% Hotel?

[vale marsh]

Yeah.

[azure bay]

did you enter the code?

[vale marsh]

Yes!

[azure bay]

here u go

[vale marsh]

I 100% CEC.

[hollow igloo]

I guess is their’s “death” in 1894

[vale marsh]

But he didn't die. He escaped.

[hollow igloo]

Yea, he was somehow saved (I assume by Owl), who turned them into a birb

[vale marsh]

also how in the world would Emma have seen that?

[vale marsh]

Oh.

It's been at least a year since I played roots.

[hollow igloo]

Also, Owl T-posing in the distance

[vale marsh]

Also, just to bring up an old argument:

That's the third game where the lake has bloody water.

[hollow igloo]

I’d say it is more “Rusty”

[azure bay]

It's just water reuse from a stylistic logo with a sunset

[hollow igloo]

I guess the lake turns that color during the night. But in roots it doesn’t seem to do that, if I’m not mistakes… so maybe it is just aesthetics

But also, in “The Mill” the water of the lake has a different color

[vale marsh]

I'd show a counterargument.... but I personally think it's too much to show.

But the color does look like bloody water to me.

At least in the third.

[azure bay]

It's sunset water

[azure bay]

reused for the resource economy sake

[vale marsh]

I can see that for all but the third and Roots.

[azure bay]

what Roots?

[vale marsh]

This happened in Roots, right?

[azure bay]

what happened?

[hollow igloo]

No, it’s in Birthday

[vale marsh]

The screenshot you showed is from Roots, right?

It is?

[azure bay]

👆

[vale marsh]

Huh.

THEN WHY SAY EMMA SAW IT?! I'm so confused now.

[azure bay]

The Search capter

she looks at the hotel

the lightbeam strikes it

Harvey arrives

[hollow igloo]

Wait, why would it be the same event?

It has a completely different setting

And also a different year

[azure bay]

All this time I was saying that you shouldn't take The Search at face value

Harvey couldn't likely arrive before her rebirth as a bird

Emma wouldn't chill for 5 years after writing a goodbye letter

[hollow igloo]

Yes, if they were able to transform back and forth

[azure bay]

we've never seen that

and 2 lightbeams striking the hotel's entrance with Harvey's arrival is too much

this cross-over is one of the few things I'm actually certain about

[vale marsh]

I swear that hotel transcends time and space.

[azure bay]

and Emma does nothing for 5 long years

[vale marsh]

Harvey (in humanoid form) sees Dale in the Elevator.... Emma sees Harvey as a bird...

[hollow igloo]

But we have never seen anyone been reborn as an animal too. Harvey is the most misterious being in the series, so it is unlikely that he behaves like the others. I wouldn’t say it’s impossible

[sage token]

peaks head in to mention my pocket dimension idea before disappearing again

[vale marsh]

I'm interested. I'm going to be busy for a few minutes but I wanna read this.

[azure bay]

No but we have other example of some will giving a rebirth in a different form. The lake was strong enough to make Eilanders asuras, Owl's can't go beyond animals

[hollow igloo]

Also: I think that if the devs wanted to show us that the event happened in the same period, they could have easily done it by setting the search at night. Nothing would have changed gameplay-wise.

And also put the correct year

[azure bay]

that's a rubbish way of arguing cause u can't actually know what the devs would or wouldn't do

[hollow igloo]

If that search lasted longer, changing the year would not have been a problem

[sage token]

I don't have like an in depth thing, but I like to think that Rusty Lake and the surrounding area is its own dimension where things and the laws of physics work differently.
Also like to think that TWD is its own dimension, if not connected to the RL one. One of my reasons being that time doesn't seem to move at all unless Bob follows the schedule

[azure bay]

I think the years show only the chapter beginning. Emma wouldn't stay passive for 5 years. She signed her goodbye letter. It's over for her

[hollow igloo]

It’s not rubbish. RL it’s a game, it’s not a story on its own. There is gameplay, which has meaning. Also, the story of RL is mostly show through images, graphics and aesthetics. If we don’t analyse the images, what can we do? So a change so simple as changing the time of the day from day to night has to be taken into consideration. Than any coherent explanation could work. Another thing: Harvey has a cylinder for the letter, and does not have it in the Hotel secret ending. How do you explain that?

[azure bay]

What I was trying to say, you don't have bts info. You don't know what were their vision and resources.

And the cylinder was Emma's. She put in on the bird

[hollow igloo]

Right about the cylinder, sorry, I forgot

[hollow igloo]

True, but wouldn’t ignoring what the devs show to us be overreading?

[azure bay]

what do I ignore?

[hollow igloo]

I’m not saying you ignore something. Is that the different setting could imply a different situation, and I wouldn’t se why it is problematic

One question: Harvey had the collar though, did they?

[azure bay]

I actually can

the only thing I'm mistaken in is Emma seeing the lightbeam

I think she didn't

cause she wouldn't search at night

at least not with a telescope

and the puzzle wouldn't be user friendly if it was all dark

they decided to put that connection into a puzzle

So here's my reasoning

1. Emma would likely go hang herself sooner after sending the letter rather than later

so she ended her search in 1896

and the date depicts only the chapter beginning

[hollow igloo]

That what I was thinking too

[azure bay]

2. since the escape already takes place in that time period, we likely see exactly that

but Harvey could arrive in 1896

or be visiting Emma more regularly

the collar could be given either by her or maybe even Crow who wanted to make sure that Frank found the timepiece

Emma likely didn't see the event itself which was also a part of the puzzle

[hollow igloo]

I can agree on that

Still, a 5 years timespan for a single static level seems a bit of a stretch to me. It breaks the gameplay rules we have in roots till that point: being a specific event happening in a specific time.

[azure bay]

I tend to think it's more widespread than you think

that could be indicated by the graveyard dates

[hollow igloo]

What do you mean?

[azure bay]

Mary dies several months after Sam and Ida, for example

[hollow igloo]

Interesting, I never noticed that

[azure bay]

Emma dies in winter, if I'm correct

[hollow igloo]

I would have said otherwise

I need to check

[azure bay]

but there's also obvious errors

like Albert dying before the level date

[hollow igloo]

The levels are both set in summer

[azure bay]

which ones?

[hollow igloo]

Mary and Samuel/Ida’s death

Do you have a screenshot of the graves?

And Albert’s is in Fall 1926

I quickly checked the wiki, I don’t have the game RN

[azure bay]

Or, once again, they only start then. The Familly Band wraps Voodoo around chronology-wise

[azure bay]

I have no screenshots at hand but I remember it's February on his tombstone

[hollow igloo]

Found online

[azure bay]

ok, was a bit wrong about Emma

but she still dies in the next seasons, according to this

like it took her months to finish the painting

[hollow igloo]

Wait, those dates don’t make much sense, also the low res doesn’t help

[azure bay]

most of them do if you take the same perspective I directed at The Search

[hollow igloo]

Also 6 months for a vodoo rite? It’s honestly too much

[azure bay]

unless Albert is that sadistic

[azure bay]

WAIT A MINUTE
where did you find it?

[hollow igloo]

Google images, it could be an older version

[azure bay]

or a newer

[hollow igloo]

I’ll look when I get home

Hopefully I can get an answer

Even because other years seems wrong to me, like Mary’s and James’

[azure bay]

I guess, they fixed Emma, Mary and James

[hollow igloo]

I can’t look at the levels anymore

[floral mauve]

@hollow igloo this is the current one I believe

they know they fucked up some dates and years

so they patched it

[hollow igloo]

Thanks man, it makes much more sense

[azure bay]

Emma was corrected since. It's likely took her a season to finish the painting

[hollow igloo]

I have an idea that could fit everything, it is a bit of a stretch though

[azure bay]

another thing I noticed, Frank has shaven himself only a season after the chess match began

[hollow igloo]

True

What about time distorsion?

[azure bay]

I wouldn't look for it in the context of Roots

but in the games concerning Dale sure

[hollow igloo]

It could fit though. Or better, CS having a different perseption of passing time

Since everything in Roots is seen through the eyes of a CS, that would be an explanation

[azure bay]

I think narrative time skips are more easy to fit in many places

[hollow igloo]

Yes, but it literally seem to take six months for a vodoo rite. It seems strange to me

[azure bay]

and specifically that I'd call a mistake

as well as Albert's gravestone

I've just reported them

[hollow igloo]

I agree with you

[azure bay]

If they fix Albert but not Ida/Sam, that would mean that Albert is that sadistic

[hollow igloo]

I imagine him being sadistic, it would make sense

[azure bay]

also fixing Ida/Sam would require changing the chest code

[hollow igloo]

That won’t probably happen

[azure bay]

a single digit

[hollow igloo]

Maybe that is why they didn’t change it

[azure bay]

maybe

[hollow igloo]

If I remember correctly Albert’s date is also relevant

[azure bay]

not the month

[hollow igloo]

Got it

I don’t remember it that well

What if being just near the lake causes a distortion in time? Thinking about the phone call in The Mill

Maybe something similar could happen in the flow of time in Roots.

Basically a time skip, but explained in lore terms

[azure bay]

I'd rather explain that by Owl stretching his limited time exactly in that time period

[hollow igloo]

So you think that Owl can manipulate time?

[azure bay]

not sure

[hollow igloo]

I don’t think if I got you correctly, I’m a bit tired

[azure bay]

maybe by manipulating the lake's will

[hollow igloo]

Ok, got it

[azure bay]

the lake gave Dale second chance

something similar could be seen in HB and The Lake

[hollow igloo]

I think the lake’s will is independent

I agree on that

The lake has definitely time manipulation powers

But we don’t know to what extent.

[azure bay]

I think he could to some extent have control over it. Most of his exceptional powers could be explained by the lake's blessing

[hollow igloo]

The lake could have a souls since it’s on al the wheel, but has it something like a consciousness? Or is it more about instinct, or destiny?

He has the blessing of the lake for sure. But still the lake is the superior being in my opinion.

[azure bay]

I tend to compare it to a child

[hollow igloo]

Interesting comparison, I get it

He needs care and has no real reason

[azure bay]

yeah

[hollow igloo]

That is probably the way I would interpret it too

But I was thinking
“A man walked besides the lake. As he approached the mill, time stopped”

[azure bay]

yeah, I was thinking the same

but going outside that story requires a stretch

I mean, it was about the mill

in The Cave I may see the same

Dale not growing beard for months

[hollow igloo]

Yes, that is referring to that and would explain the strange time behaviour

[hollow igloo]

Never thought about that, but he probably was in the lake for months, so who knows what happens down there. If time is still, or flows differently, that would work

[azure bay]

but going centuries back, it becomes less likely to some extent.

I mean, the Vanderbooms generally don't seem that weird to take tricky time as a norm

[hollow igloo]

I have a theory linking time flow to the blue cube in a very meta-scientific way, a bit too much probably. That is for another day

[azure bay]

I'd link second chances to that

to the blue cube I mean

[hollow igloo]

That is also a possibility

But I think they are more related to time itself rather than second chances. A second chance can be offered even without a blue cube (the lake, case23, Harvey’s box)

[late lynx]

I have a theory that this game is a false reality that we don’t know of

😶‍🌫️🤔😵‍💫🤥😶😐

[floral mauve]

its technically a fact

this is a serie of games

[late lynx]

I’m right ?????

[azure bay]

No, because we know about this fictional reality

[long smelt]

I just learned this week that white cubs means it's a good memory and black cubs means it's a bad memory.

[sage token]

Like a...pocket dimension? 👀

[half elm]

I saw someone say it before, but I like the idea of most games being memories you're looking into! Which is why each room is a cube + have no doors. I don't think it's super important to the lore or anything, just a neat detail (+ Laura's eye looking down into one in Seasons)

[sage token]

I think I'm the one that said that 🤔

.

Possibly

[azure bay]

Why Dale?

[sage token]

I'm thinking that it all happens either during his elevator journey or while hooked up to that contraption in The Cave.

We know that he's reliving his own memories, right? Why not the memories of others too?

[surreal oak]

I think theres Someone watching in seasons, since the eye in the celing

[azure bay]

because I see no reason for him to see those

while his memories are relived with purpose

[sage token]

Dale is meant to be Owl's successor. I think there is a reason and that is to show him the history of The Lake and prepare him for the responsibility of being its caretaker.

[azure bay]

that's the problem

he is already told of some aspects

why telling "I used to be a human" if Owl has presumably shown it in the previous game?

and another thing

Owl isn't omnipotent himself

he doesn't even know how to make elixir from scratch

being able to see Vanderboom bros would help him a lot

[vale marsh]

I think that is the concept of Theater and Birthday. It might belong to others. Those two are just the ones I'm 100% certain on.

I wouldn't be surprised if Paradox fell into that category.

[lyric perch]

I think the corrupted soul is what happens when the soul gets divided between bad and good

[vale marsh]

Interesting. I can see that.

[floral mauve]

whats a good soul then

[azure bay]

what's your reasoning?

[lyric perch]

yes

[azure bay]

I'm asking how you came to that conclusion

[lyric perch]

because corrupted souls are evil

I'm evil as well

[azure bay]

o_0

[analog yacht]

I kinda just saw them as a darker aspect of oneself, not necessarily evil. Bad memories, but not necessarily morally bad

but sometimes they are morally bad yes

[lyric perch]

can you tell me a few corrupted souls that are the least evil? and are helpflu

[analog yacht]

I think the corrupted soul is just what happens when bad memories are allowed to take over your mind

[lyric perch]

helpful

[azure bay]

Caroline

[lyric perch]

well if that's true then IRL I AM really a corrupted soul

[analog yacht]

it's metaphorical my dude

[lyric perch]

I never heard of her

[analog yacht]

RL: Paradise

[lyric perch]

oh

long time did I stop playing rusty lake games, might start replaying them on my phone

[analog yacht]

Might be good, refreshes your memories :p

[lyric perch]

wait

caroline is the guy who was sacrificed

[floral mauve]

guy

[analog yacht]

Also, corrupted souls are troubled but they're not complete evil. They do bad things sometimes, but they aren't inherently bad

[azure bay]

the gal, to be precise

[lyric perch]

what's the most evil corrupted soul?

as well as character

[azure bay]

what do you call evil?

[analog yacht]

That's hard to say. Depends on how morality is defined.

I see them more neutral

[lyric perch]

someone who tries to be against people and tries to kill them, in Rusty Lake

[floral mauve]

then u mean agressive

not evil necessary

[lyric perch]

yes

what corrupted soul is the most agressive

[analog yacht]

I mean, Dale isn't a bad person, but he also can be tempted to do bad things

No thing is evil because they do bad things

[lyric perch]

Dale Vanderboom?

isn't that the detective

[analog yacht]

Vandermeer, yes

[azure bay]

sigh...

[floral mauve]

all the guests are pretty agressive

[lyric perch]

I thought it was a good character

[floral mauve]

but I would say Deer

[analog yacht]

He is

[floral mauve]

he is

[lyric perch]

then why is he considered agressive

[analog yacht]

Really? I'd have said Boar, personally. Or Pigeon

He isn't aggressive. But I suppose it depends on if you played Paradox yet

[lyric perch]

wait but in RL hotel, why did Crow wanted to kill the guests?

[analog yacht]

Owl wanted them dead, and Harvey killed them. For various different reasons

[lyric perch]

also why are the paradise people having masks like those guests?

[floral mauve]

oh I mean, Deer often shows up in an agressive way every time

even in paradox

[analog yacht]

Ohhhh you meant- okay that makes sense

[floral mauve]

the corrupted soul wants to kill u

if u dont react quickly

[azure bay]

in Paradox?

[floral mauve]

in the forrest

[azure bay]

I'm sure that's Dale

[lyric perch]

which corrupted soul was the one in the case 23 at the cabin?

[floral mauve]

after the dead deer

[analog yacht]

Yeah, that's just Dale

[floral mauve]

or decapitated deer

[azure bay]

I'm sure that's Dale

[lyric perch]

So Dale wanted to kill Dale

[analog yacht]

Afaik that's not confirmed per se

[lyric perch]

huh

[analog yacht]

Dale did not want to kill Dale

He was following himself, kinda

[floral mauve]

but its deer related

not important anyway

[lyric perch]

I think that's the reincarnated female idk her name

[analog yacht]

Kinda sorta almost

[lyric perch]

soul

or one of the guests

[analog yacht]

Nah, it's probs not Laura

Good theory, but I'm uncertain

[lyric perch]

but question

[azure bay]

Corrupted Dale meets many versions of Dale. It's only natural that ch1 Dale meets corrupted Dale

[lyric perch]

are the guests = paradise people?

[azure bay]

to some extent

[lyric perch]

wdym

[floral mauve]

enlighten him

I am bad at explaining stuff

[lyric perch]

so they drank that beer thing that makes them invincible?

[azure bay]

no

[floral mauve]

?

[lyric perch]

elixir

[vale marsh]

My assumption is that it slows aging.

[lyric perch]

anyone knows a full storyline of Rusty Lake?

that explains well

while I also play

[analog yacht]

There isn't one "storyline"

[floral mauve]

yes

[analog yacht]

there are many possible storylines

[lyric perch]

wdym

[floral mauve]

there is a general timeline

with no certain details

[analog yacht]

that have existed, will exist, and still exist.

Pasts have changed, for one

[azure bay]

I'm the best you got

[analog yacht]

But even with a vague idea, it's a scattered mess

[lyric perch]

tell me the whole story

[floral mauve]

...

[azure bay]

It will take hours and hours

[floral mauve]

yep

[analog yacht]

So, so many hours

[lyric perch]

really

[floral mauve]

u should ask bit by bit

like a specfic topic first

[lyric perch]

Ok

[analog yacht]

Yup. Play the games and ask as you play, maybe.

That'd help for specifics

[vale marsh]

I don't think any of us know the full story.

[lyric perch]

I want someone to name every single character and soul and living being in Rusty lake, their behaviour and their role.

[vale marsh]

Like, very few people talk about where Van Gogh fits into this.

[analog yacht]

Van Gogh is special

[azure bay]

I have theories about it

[lyric perch]

Van Gogh is the picturist that appears in the first game

[analog yacht]

and there are a ton of characters, with behaviour that change and roles that also change

[lyric perch]

just name them all

and tell what their main role is at least

[floral mauve]

plz be polite

[lyric perch]

I'm sorry?

[azure bay]

go read wiki for that

[lyric perch]

oh

wiki

forgot

[floral mauve]

we arent ur subordinate and u cant just make us do stuff like that

[lyric perch]

link ?

nvm

[vale marsh]

Harvey: just an enigma
Bat guy
Mr. Crow: does work for Mr. Owl?
Mr. Owl: Current ruler of the Lake
Dale: Unfortunate detective
Laura: she ded
There's a dog that shows up sometimes.
Bob: Laura's ex
There there's the hotel guests who wander the lake.
Mr. Owl's mom, who may or may not have been the first corrupted soul. Either way she knew a lot about the lake.

There are more but I forget their names.

[floral mauve]

[lyric perch]

I have a theory that Laura died on one timeline and there was another where she didn't die, that would explain winter season

[azure bay]

corrupted souls are as ancient as the universe

[azure bay]

she's dead in winter

she's a corrupted soul

[floral mauve]

u can say maybe Caroline is the one who did research on cubes first

[lyric perch]

so in winter it was her corrupted soul we were playing as?

[azure bay]

surprise!

[floral mauve]

and for elixir for certain I think, probably with some help from Harvey

[vale marsh]

I think it was her corrupted soul the entire time, but some people don't agree with me.

[azure bay]

@lyric perch I've made a video covering basics of Laura's early story

[lyric perch]

channel?

[vale marsh]

I don't think Harvey is older than Mr. Owl.

[floral mauve]

well Harvey appeared in Paradise

[vale marsh]

Where?!

[floral mauve]

#😻｜sotl-content

[analog yacht]

Harvey is a funky lad

[floral mauve]

easter egg

[vale marsh]

How did I miss this?

[floral mauve]

[vale marsh]

I swore I 100% paradise.

[azure bay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki0DC_VZUPk&t=2s

[lyric perch]

does the white door have anything to do with Rusty Lake (Place)?

[analog yacht]

Sort of

[floral mauve]

I dont think it has direct contact with the lake itself

or connection

[lyric perch]

so it is a totally different game from the other ones

[floral mauve]

its more like Owl's further science project

[lyric perch]

wdym science project

[floral mauve]

its a different style but it is certainly related to the RL universe

[lyric perch]

can you spoil me one obvious relation?

[floral mauve]

Bob

[lyric perch]

Bob Ross

ok

[vale marsh]

Guy from theater.

[analog yacht]

Robert Hill

[lyric perch]

stop stop please

[vale marsh]

Oh was that a joke? Sorry.

I'm not the best with that.

[lyric perch]

not you

[lyric perch]

him

[vale marsh]

Oh okay.

[lyric perch]

btw

I'll ask in #🩸｜general-chat

[analog yacht]

Robert Hill is just his full name

Shortened to Bob

[vale marsh]

Anyways, if you're still here, I'd love to keep answering questions.

[vale marsh]

So, looking at both Roots and Birthday... the guests were invited around 1870, and the breakout happens around 1894 (ish).

I know Harvey is a weird crux in all of this, but it does mean that it takes about... 24 years after the guests die for them to break out Assuming the hotel follows normal time rules, which I sometimes doubt.

[azure bay]

The guests were killed in 1893

1870 is 1st & foremost an easter egg

For a puzzle that doesn't make sense

But

It could have implications

[vale marsh]

The reason Harvey is a weird issue is because he appears as a bird in 1891 but... sometimes I wonder if he and the others can turn into an animal at will. Kinda like animorphs.

[azure bay]

We have never seen that

[vale marsh]

Let's be real: what about this game series makes sense?

Seen what?

[azure bay]

Transformations into animals on a wimp

[vale marsh]

We have Harvey.

[azure bay]

That's not on a wimp

[vale marsh]

And then there's all the crows.

[azure bay]

Where?

[floral mauve]

the closest we see of this case is in Cave unstable transition between asura and human

[vale marsh]

Paradox, Roots... i doubt a normal crow was guiding Dale to Mr. Crow.

[azure bay]

That was Harvey in the forest

[floral mauve]

I am slightly confused

[azure bay]

In Roots it was a regular crow. We saw it hatching

[vale marsh]

Nvm.

That wasn't even the main point I was wanting to say.

[azure bay]

What was?

[vale marsh]

The potential time passing in the hotel.

[floral mauve]

what about it

[vale marsh]

...

[floral mauve]

Yea

we suspect that they are highly likely to be regular guests

[vale marsh]

How so?

[azure bay]

4 of them are working on or with Owl

[floral mauve]

the only flaw is ambassador but it can be explained in a less convincing way which is not well fabricated

[vale marsh]

I assumed that Mr. Owl was friends with the ambassador beforehand.

Mr. Boar, right?

[floral mauve]

maybe

but

in his letter

Owl's tone is more official than close friends

[azure bay]

Maybe acquaintance

[floral mauve]

maybe

just a person he knows

[azure bay]

With a friend in common, according to Owl's words

Unless he lied

[vale marsh]

I missremembered. It was a mutual friend.

I have a feeling that friend would either be a hotel worker (Mr. Crow is included in this group: he runs the front desk) or an unimportant character.

[floral mauve]

we probably just dont know

Owl has many connections

somehow

[azure bay]

I guess even the devs didn't think that friend through

It's irrelevant

[floral mauve]

a guy who has knowledge and power to build a lake base out of nowhere must have some connections

[vale marsh]

He is at least 200. I'd be shocked if he didn't have ties to a lot of the businesses and people in the area.

[floral mauve]

a guy built hotel and submarine from scratch

Capitan Nemo

[azure bay]

Oh

[vale marsh]

For some reason, as I said that, I imagined Mr. Owl as some sort of mafia boss.

[floral mauve]

is he not?

he got cigar
he got crew
he kidnap ppl

he is mafia boss

simple

deduction

[azure bay]

He doesn't do illegal businesses as far as I'm concerned

[vale marsh]

Idk if he is in the mafia perse (maybe because all I know about mafias are oversimplifications), but at the very least something much like it.

[floral mauve]

which part makes u feel its legal in twd and hotel

[vale marsh]

He has deals with Mr. Crow, multiple mental health facilities, RL mental health facilities were in the newspaper, nobody seems to wonder why the ambassador disappeared, and so on.

I feels like Laura is just the one where his work almost got caught.

[azure bay]

Oh they are legal. They just have shady things happening in there which aren't for profit

[floral mauve]

yea

thats what mafia do

[vale marsh]

Murder isn't legal.

[floral mauve]

use legal businesses to undercover

like money laundry

[azure bay]

Hotel is

[vale marsh]

You poison a guy!

[azure bay]

They do crimes there but the business is legit

[floral mauve]

no evidence = no crime

its just a deer in a weird shape and in human suit

I wont suspect

[vale marsh]

Now it feels like all the hotel staff are just his underlings...

Mr. Toad disposes of the evidence, Harvey was responsible for doing the deed, Mr. Crow leads everyone to the site, and the Bat was responsible for setting up the rooms (maybe), so he would set the trap in motion.

[azure bay]

Mafia isn't about the crimes on their own. It's about profit from them

[vale marsh]

And? I just wanted to guess everyone's role in the operation.

Their profit seems to be feeding the lake.

[floral mauve]

yep

[floral mauve]

possibly

[azure bay]

No, it doesn't help them exist

[floral mauve]

maybe they used the cube to feed the lake

we dont know

but the guests have other purposes

[azure bay]

The lake is not a resource that they can apply into groth

[vale marsh]

I'm 100% positive the cubes are fed to to the lake.

[azure bay]

And yet they don't seem to disappear

[floral mauve]

true

[vale marsh]

We seem to have differing opinions as to why, but I feel like there are consequences for letting the lake go "hungry" for too long.

[covert wyvern]

ah but mayhaps they don't need too, a sentient liquid body could very well just suck the memories out of the cubes, leaving empty carcasses behind.

[floral mauve]

its like u throw the cubes in the lake

and nothing happened

except harmony

[azure bay]

Laura's memories were still in the cubes

[floral mauve]

thats my initial thoughts

[floral mauve]

but this is the fact

[covert wyvern]

ah but they're relatively fresh

[vale marsh]

Like the things owls puke out. They still have the bones, but the meat of the animal is gone.

[azure bay]

Would they risk William's elixir?

[floral mauve]

is that so

[covert wyvern]

unsure what you mean with that! just wanted to comment on the cubes not immediately disapearing haha

[floral mauve]

did Owl eat those?

probably he asked Mr Toad or Harvey to clear the bones

[azure bay]

Laura's cubes are important because of William's formula inside them

[covert wyvern]

ah fair. ye unsure then why they'd toss em into the lake in that case!

[azure bay]

Maybe to keep the lake just play with them?

[floral mauve]

maybe lake is like dragon

[floral mauve]

same thought

the lake just enjoys memories in it

like dragon with treasure

[vale marsh]

I'm not saying Mr. Owl pukes the cubes out for the lake. I'm saying that maybe the shell of the cubes cannot be properly digested/broken down.

[floral mauve]

the thing is, the content is still there

I had same thought before

[azure bay]

Plus, the important content I wouldn't like to lose

[vale marsh]

We do not know what the lake does with these cubes.

[floral mauve]

exactly

[covert wyvern]

ye coald also b a dragon hoard type deal definitely.

[vale marsh]

Even as far back as Paradise they were giving memories to the lake.

[azure bay]

And even then the content was intact

The content of the same importance

That Caroline wouldn't like to lose

[vale marsh]

My question is why Caroline singing to Jakob was a black cube.

[azure bay]

Maybe she knew where it was going already then

[vale marsh]

Don't all the cubes in Paradise follow Jakob, though?

[azure bay]

No

At least 4 that don't

[vale marsh]

Which 4?

[azure bay]

Coffin, formula, bonfire and the final one

[vale marsh]

The final one felt like a prophesy.

[azure bay]

More like message

[vale marsh]

But yeah, that makes sense.

[long smelt]

I am confused, did Lauras corupted soul kill her?

Or did she kill her self?

[floral mauve]

I would say she killed herself under the influence of her corrupted soul since it is a sign of terrible mental state

[long smelt]

Oh. That's sad. :(

[azure bay]

Or it wasn't even her corrupted soul

[floral mauve]

insert some intriguing factor huh

[azure bay]

I still find Dale's cs involvement plausible

[brittle dune]

true, but the 'its me' in seasons w both the corrupted soul & laura herself, plus the cs turning into laura at the end, its more plausible that this specific cs is laura

[azure bay]

It is plausible but not more

There are tons of CS in the series

While Laura in particular went corrupted after her cube extraction

[brittle dune]

mm true

also i like literally just finished replaying paradox so i rly get what ur saying now lmao

[azure bay]

BTW, all the scenes of CS killing Laura are metaphorical

technically it was suicide, as seen in The Cave

but some CS could be the indirect reason

[lyric perch]

In the cave, did Crow lose the immortality? Why did he made an elixir if he drank it already and his character wiki shows that he is still immortal?

Same for Owl

And why is Owl not immortal on his wiki?

Ping me if answe

[azure bay]

@lyric perch yes

and I seem to derive the mechanism

[lyric perch]

Yes... What?

[azure bay]

they are not immortal

I guess, never were supposed to

I mean the devs probably was never going to make the truly immortal

[ripe flame]

Okay hey I came here to talk about Harvey's death

[lyric perch]

Then why 1. Aldous lived very long
And 2. Aldous has "alive (immortal)" on his page but Owl is not immortal?

I mean Owl is way more elderly than Crow

[ripe flame]

Harvey died two times or what could it be? Developers just forgot date?

[azure bay]

1. Elixir gives immortality as long as it stays in one's body. But it slowly drains out.
2. Wiki is edited by the fans. It doesn't have to make sense

[lyric perch]

In seasons I think the bird did not die, it was part of the woman's dementia or smth

[ripe flame]

I'm about Roots

[lyric perch]

Because in paradox you see the bird alive (might just be the memory of the brain)

Oh roots idk

[azure bay]

What is your evidence?

[lyric perch]

So owl and Crow are immortal for around 50 more years or smth, and Crow is technically not immortal

[lyric perch]

Why did she see a cube room with no door

[ripe flame]

When we help Emma we see in the telescope that something ups in Hotel and than Harvey coming to Emma. It was 1891. In birthday we have to enter 1894.

[lyric perch]

It was her illusions

[azure bay]

or it's gameplay

[lyric perch]

Possibly the same for chapter 3 walls and bird death

I am meaning as story

[azure bay]

Is Case 23 real?

[lyric perch]

Irl no

[azure bay]

I mean is it an illusion?

[ripe flame]

Then who tooked Emma's letter and brought it to Frank? Harvey croaked... Maybe it was really a crow?

[lyric perch]

Case 23 happened around cube escape seasons chapter 3

Because the walls was a sign of her (woman) death

[azure bay]

Is it an illusion or not?

[lyric perch]

The woman had an illusion that went to her death which explains case 23

[azure bay]

but is Case 23 an illusion?

[lyric perch]

No

Dale doesn't suffer like her

[azure bay]

and yet it lacks doors in 2 mid chapters

[lyric perch]

Wdym

[azure bay]

there's no door in the police station, neither in the chapel

[lyric perch]

The chapel has one leading to water

Police station wait lemme check

[azure bay]

it's sealed you need to break the centuries old wall

and from outside perspectives it has doors

[azure bay]

Which deaths are u talking about?

[ripe flame]

Harvey's

[azure bay]

when?

[ripe flame]

When he become a bird

[azure bay]

and what's your question about Roots?

[lyric perch]

Uh

[ripe flame]

In roots he died 1891 but actually we could see that he died 1894 in birthday

[lyric perch]

If case 23 chapel and police station has no clear door, then it is possible Dale may have an illusion similar to her

[azure bay]

or it's not illusions in both cases

[lyric perch]

Or he climbed the window or vent 😎

[azure bay]

answer me that. Would Emma wait for 5 years after signing her goodbye letter?

[azure bay]

or at least doors don't indicate the reality

[ripe flame]

3 years of difference

[azure bay]

Would Emma wait for 5 years after signing her goodbye letter?

[ripe flame]

But why didn't she gave it dove or crow I don't know, but Harvey died 1894 and all

[azure bay]

you didn't answer my question

would she?

[ripe flame]

Yes, because how could she send this letter 😐

🧐

[azure bay]

0_o

you say she sent it in 1891

[ripe flame]

Ye

[azure bay]

would she wait for 5 years after that doing nothing?

[ripe flame]

Just go in roots and see it

[ripe flame]

3

Why 5?

[azure bay]

she died in 1896

[ripe flame]

Well why not give it Harvey in 1894? Or just give it soemone from her family ?

[azure bay]

you don't get me

normally people don't wait for 5 years after saying goodbye

so probably that's not the case

probably the search only started in 1891

and lasted for 5 years

after which she gave up and signed her letter

[ripe flame]

If search started in 1891 (but it should start when Frank get into the well) Why not write a goodbye letter and give it Samuel? Anddd if she wrote it in 91 year why she waited so long and didn't made suicide in 91-92 years?

[azure bay]

she hanged herself in 1896

[ripe flame]

Yes

And when she write a letter?

[azure bay]

Likely also in 1896

[ripe flame]

How do u know? Any facts?

[azure bay]

logic

you just don't wait for 5 years after writing a goodbye letter

and Harvey's easter egg suddenly makes sense

[ripe flame]

I think you too writing goodbye letter in the right time not in 5 years before death and well when we playing the game it shows 1891 -_-

[ripe flame]

What Easter egg?

[azure bay]

the one that confused you

[azure bay]

it makes sense if it shows only the chapter beginning

[ripe flame]

If it. Actually we don't know.

[ripe flame]

Well, tell me, enlighten me 🙄

[azure bay]

dude, my assumption fixes 2 plot holes for free

1st it makes Emma more decisive, and lets Harvey die in 1894

[ripe flame]

Dude, it's all subjective.

[azure bay]

ok, here are 2 stories pick your favorite:

[ripe flame]

Okay, enlighten me

||I love this phrase, hehe||

[azure bay]

1. Emma searches for Frank for 3 short months at most. Gives up that early. Harvey breaks the lore by dying 3 years earlier. Emma writes the goodbye letter but chills for 5 long years before she finally decides to die.

2. Emma starts her search in 1891 and carries it for 5 long years. During that time period, in 1894, as it was previously established, Harvey dies. Probably the bird visits Emma several times. In 1896 Emma gives up, writes a goodbye letter, sends it with Harvey and hangs herself right away.

[ripe flame]

1st can't be because Harvey can't break the lore. I have felling like you chose this two theories, first can't be, none broke the lore and noone will, so that I would be inclined to your opinion?

[azure bay]

But Harvey dying in 1891 actually breaks the lore. You came here to ask how it's possible

and I answer: it's not

[ripe flame]

Well your secret code is 1894 where we could normally see, that CS murdering Harvey and he became a bird 🤨

[azure bay]

yes, and where am I wrong?

[ripe flame]

In that I must think that 2nd theorie is right, just because maybe I don't have facts, and can't say another theorie because u'll say something that will make my theories impossible to be.

[vale marsh]

I'm still uncertain if Harvey died there or just got trampled.

[azure bay]

We never saw Asuras turning into animals on their own. And Harvey was turned by Owl.

[vale marsh]

Also, I do not know much about this stuff, but I've heard that people sometimes mark their calendars for things like this. As dark as it is, she might have set the date far enough in advance in hopes that her son would return by then.

[azure bay]

she sent the letter. Definitively. Maybe even across time & space (considering Harvey)

[vale marsh]

Also, the more we all argue about the order of events, the more I believe that the timing is meant to be confusing and convoluded. Maybe it isn't meant to be solved.

As they say... "The past isn't even the past"

[azure bay]

dude, I'm giving you a nice elegant answer. Why can't you accept it?

this answer just works, it closes down 2 plot holes

[vale marsh]

Because I have a feeling we are both stubborn people.

And I have a bad habit of joining in just to debate.

[azure bay]

Usually I am not stubborn. I'm a relativist. There isn't many things I'm that sure about.

[vale marsh]

Huh. What's that?

[azure bay]

Usually the evidence can't be interpreted in a single way

[covert wyvern]

also feel like its worth pointing out no one has to accept ur answers.

what they do with that info is totally up to them!

alright carry on

[azure bay]

And often you can bend it to suit anything you already established for yourself

and it has a potential of creating many fascinating stories

[hollow igloo]

Trying to add constructive criticism: the problem with this answer, which I agree solves the problem, is that it is counterintuitive from a gameplay perspective. In the game five years don’t pass. We can try to add elements such as time distortion, but still saying a single level took place in a five year time span, with no visible timeskips, is a bit confusing.

I would like to add a possible interpretation of events. Assuming the dates are correct and what we see happening really happens in 1891

[vale marsh]

I might be missing something. All I saw was that someone here wasn't comfortable sharing their theories because of the response and felt like I had to jump in.

I just think trying to figure out a perfect string of events is futile if you try to look into it for too long.

[covert wyvern]

lmao, ye.

[vale marsh]

I just accept the dates as they give it to me.

Which people here criticize, but I'll continue to just accept what they give to me until told otherwise.

[covert wyvern]

im inclined to agree w/ this but I can also definitely see how not telling us about time warping is done on purpose to confuse us more ig.

[vale marsh]

Harvey is just an enigma in all of this tbh.

[azure bay]

in rationality it's called "curiosity stop sign"

Some statement that looks like it explains something while in the reality it doesn't.
"It's science" is one of them.

it literally stops you from questionning

[hollow igloo]

1. we all agree that Owl turned Harvey with his powers: the light beams appears when he uses them, plus in 1894 we can see Owl T-posing (meme, but seems to be how he uses his powers). We also know that Harvey is no regular Asura, as he is more of an elden beast (too much elden ring, I had to). Also, Harvey was a bird during Paradise, not a human. So, if Owl was able to turn Harvey into a bird once, why not twice or more? So maybe we just see a previous iteration of the same power, and probably helping Emma would be in Owl’s and Crow’s interest.
2. maybe the letter was a precaution. Maybe Emma wanted to have a backup in case she died before finding Frank, and so she wrote the letter in advance, and then she kept searching for the remaining five years. When she couldn’t keep it up more, maybe after seeing her brother’s family and the little Leonard, she decided she was done.

And then she is in space because who-knows-why

[azure bay]

I assume, Frank was dropped into the well on Halloween. In that case Emma searched for him less than for a month

[vale marsh]

Tbh, sometimes doing that for pieces of fiction makes it more fun.

[azure bay]

we have very different definitions of fun

My dophamine bomb is finally figuring out the lore after thinking about it for some time

no matter if it contradicts my previous theories

[vale marsh]

I'm mainly here for solving puzzles and brainstorming ideas, no matter how crazy.

[azure bay]

are you sure you are not contradicting yourself? Because blindly following the dates is the least crazy we can get

[vale marsh]

It's because I do not like dealing with dates.

[azure bay]

After 1891 Harvey still needed to become asura back and it never was easy. Probably even for Harvey who wasn't asura ever since.
Plus, multiple light beams striking the Hotel entrance and bringing Harvey during the same decade is too often for me

[vale marsh]

I do not deal with timelines because I suck at memorizing dates.

Most of my theories are thematic/character based instead of time based.

Anyways, I'm going to finish my art now.

[azure bay]

I have last question

how often do you operate with evidence?

[indigo beacon]

im very new here - is there any sort of masterpost?

[covert wyvern]

nah not really! don't think discord allows for that sort of thing.

for really big theory posts I think it wise to refer you to the Reddit.

[floral mauve]

Sometimes maybe we should pull out the timeline map more often

[covert wyvern]

ye I suppose stuff like that does exist, good shout.

just we lack a message where everythings in one place; but as mentioned dont really think discord is the place for that regardless.

[floral mauve]

Oh I didn’t mean that

I just read all above arguments

150 messages I missed

[covert wyvern]

o i see

sorry LMAO

[floral mauve]

Damy

Would u mind ping nowhere’s map since all the dates are from the game and nothing subjective is in it

[covert wyvern]

I do yes,.

[azure bay]

I don't think Space Cadet would've been convinced by my map.

[covert wyvern]

I'm not pinning anything by a specific user to stay objective.

and by specific user i mean

anyone but the RL account

LMAO

[floral mauve]

I see, no problem

[covert wyvern]

Nothing anyone says is fact.

that is the problem

[floral mauve]

I didn’t mean that

[covert wyvern]

ah but I did, I don't want to legitimise anything by pinning it.

[floral mauve]

I understood

[covert wyvern]

also this decision wouldn't b upto just me! haha

[azure bay]

Paradox taking place during The Cave and The Search happening for 5 years aren't exactly on the surface

[floral mauve]

Funny thing I already asked this search question 7 months ago

We all agreed that the search has been going on for 5 years and Emma ends up hopeless

It’s not between me and nowhere, other ppl also see this as a more natural approach

[azure bay]

And Jack is right about it being counterintuitive on the surface

[floral mauve]

I am not sure about the cave

Probably I didn’t study it that much

[floral mauve]

Anyway if u want to have an overview of the timeline

[vale marsh]

I'm good, but thanks.

[floral mauve]

So my thought is: 1891 Frank in the well, Emma is sad and starts on searching.
After three years of searching, Emma is more depressed but received a parrot maybe she got some accompany from Harvey. Nevertheless, 2 years later, the grief of losing her son is still haunting her and eventually she wrote down her letter and sealed it in her pet, then boom, dead

It is true that the time skips are confusing

Which it is not certain and can have further interpretations

[floral mauve]

This is just my fabricated fan fic xd

But using all the dates and trying to link them

[vale marsh]

Literally depends on if I think I will have any results on doing so. Unless you are asking if my theories use in game evidence.

It is again, a case by case basis. Usually a game detail will get me thinking, but tbh something about this has made me not want to spend hours collecting in game evidence.

I collect it when I want to, and tbh rn I don't want to collect it. I'll just look at the themes and make a guess.

[brittle dune]

"dementia" bro laura isnt that old shes just depressed and possibly has hallucinations

[indigo beacon]

yeah early onset isn’t that early

[sage token]

Oh sorry I didn't mean to leave you hanging, I forgot about this conversation until now 😓
Doesn't Dale being hooked up to the machine in The Cave take place at the same time as Paradox? It's all happening at once. Going through others' memories would happen during this time as well.
If Dales already seen Owl being human, it wasn't much sooner than when Owl spelled it out to him, and Owl could've been doing a summary/clarifying.

[azure bay]

I'm sure in The Cave Dale sees only Paradox. Then he, semi-corrupted is put into the elevator by Crow and sent up. In Bday/Theatre we see him still going up, still semi-corrupted. And nothing like that in other games

[sage token]

When does the elevator journey start exactly? I've probably asked this before. Because we see him enter the elevator in The Cave, but also at the end of Case 23, and the latter is when I thought it had begun

[ripe flame]

I think Bday and Theatre is before then Paradox. From Paradox he came in Hotel btw

[azure bay]

have you got secret endings of Paradox?

[ripe flame]

Ye

All

[azure bay]

then listen

[ripe flame]

Okay

[azure bay]

Ch2 secret ending is Dale's perspective on The Cave ending

in The Cave he was still asleep

and the golden cube as well as the elevator are the reality leaking into his dream

[ripe flame]

In the Cave CS catched him

[azure bay]

I don't recall that

[sage token]

When exactly?

[ripe flame]

Mr. Crow made the cube and gave it Dale, so it wasn't dream :/ When it seems to a few people that it is so, it is so. If several people think they have a headache and think alike, it is not a disease, but can several people get sick and think alike at the same time?

[ripe flame]

When started Paradox

[azure bay]

1. I didn't say that The Cave is a dream. Paradox is. And the cube in the secret ending is the the Cave knocking from outside.

2. And what is truth when one group of people sees one thing and the other sees the opposite?

[azure bay]

can you give the whole story of a CS attacking Dale with specifying the games, thank you

[ripe flame]

I was watching a film where this was saying. I mean, about some peoples that see something

[floral mauve]

wha

[azure bay]

I don't think movies are good source of rationality lessons in general

[ripe flame]

I have what to say but I won't say it u, u could find it using yourself logic. Aren't you?

[ripe flame]

It was not stupid film it was normal:/

[floral mauve]

I am generally confused

or genuinely

[azure bay]

I didn't understand you here

[ripe flame]

U can find answer without looking for answers from others, you can do everything yourself, can't you?

[azure bay]

why are you telling me this?

[floral mauve]

?

I dont get it either

is this some argument

[ripe flame]

Because u are clever

[floral mauve]

or statement

[azure bay]

thank you. But still I don't get your point. What exactly do you want me to do or stop doing?

[floral mauve]

u mean at the beginning of paradox, Dale saw CS in his fever dream and that makes u think CS caught him?

[ripe flame]

U asked me (I don't remember question) soemthing but than I said that you are clever and can find answer yourself

[azure bay]

ok, let me explain then

[ripe flame]

Go in the Cave and see the end

[floral mauve]

did the CS get Dale by the end of Cave?

did u confuse case 23 or what

[azure bay]

let me handle this

[covert wyvern]

Yo we all good here?

[floral mauve]

ok

I am simply confused

[azure bay]

so am I

[floral mauve]

and I think the language barrier is doing something

but we are fine

[covert wyvern]

Cool

[azure bay]

@ripe flame the problem is, people usually see the same things differently, plus one of us may be confused or mistaken. So in order to continue you need to clarify yourself. Either by giving more details about that attack or sharing a screenshot

[ripe flame]

Well in the Cave in the end we can see Corrupted souls wrong Dale and Laura

Laura was attacked too

[floral mauve]

oh I think I get what u mean

u thought the transformation between CS and human is a sort of attack

is that what u trying to say?

[ripe flame]

Qno

No

[floral mauve]

then I dont get it

[azure bay]

@ripe flame do you mean this?

[covert wyvern]

Huh never spotted that rabbit before