🤔｜theories

[vale marsh]

What about Harvey? He is an... inreresting case.

[azure bay]

in which part?

[half shuttle]

Yeah I want a Harvey storyline

[azure bay]

I can explain the weird one but not the weirdest

[half shuttle]

Who are Toad and Bat? We know nothing about them besides their occupations

[azure bay]

we kinda do

the devs said they used to be humans before working on Owl

[half shuttle]

That makes sense

Id like to get a game with those three, that'd be cool

[azure bay]

@vale marsh what exactly confuses you about Harvey?

[vale marsh]

Well, same question as toad and owl: how did they become animalistic?

[azure bay]

Harvey seemingly always was like that

the devs said it's ancient, hatched out a black egg and is kinda guide

I'm definitely expecting its origin in the 20K BC game

(which isn't forgotten hell yeah!!!)

(mammoth lives!!!)

[half shuttle]

The what now? Haha

Do devs talk in here much btw?

[azure bay]

no

[vale marsh]

Don't think so?

[azure bay]

that was a rare occasion the last summer

and I'm hoping that won't be the last

[half shuttle]

It would probably be overwhelming so I get it

[vale marsh]

@half shuttle okay, so my computer with CEC is currently without an ethernet cable, so most of my research has been through analysis of yt walkthroughs.

Looking at the notes in the Mill, it seems as if the Lake could be considered an entity all in itself. "It desires fresh memories". Sounds as if it is a living creature that hungers. It also seems as if the extraction of certain memories cause the corruption, since removing white cubes from both Laura and the guy in Theater didn't cause corruption. It's when they had black cubes extracted that they became corrupted. Mill says corruption happens if the extracted memories are "painful". Which might explain what black cubes contain. It doesn't matter if the memories are good or bad. If they are painful to remember, then it causes a black cube.

Now, I do not know what happens if the Lake isn't fed... but if I had to guess.... it would be what happened it Paradise. In both Paradise and Hotel, the water turned to blood. Maybe the plagues are an indicator of how hungry the lake is??

[azure bay]

(black cube extraction has only a chance of soul corruption)

[floral mauve]

last paragraph is a nice observation

the plagues are quite uncertain

[vale marsh]

(True, the note doesn't say it is a guarantee. But the fact that the soul was corrupted both times I remember that it happened doesn't look good for whoever is on the Lake's menu.)

[floral mauve]

I personally wont see plagues relate to the hunger of the lake but rather the ritual

of Eilanders

or a specific period

that they are meant to occur

[vale marsh]

True, the Eilanders did screw things up.

[azure bay]

stray, please, let him finish what he's writing

[vale marsh]

The last thing I had is a side note about Dale.

[floral mauve]

I just try to say something regarding to the last paragraph

[vale marsh]

Stray can talk.

I don't mind.

[floral mauve]

but that pretty much it

the plagues are very uncertain

[azure bay]

we'll have all the time in the world afterwards c:

[floral mauve]

bruh

sus

[floral mauve]

I dont think it has to do with Lake´s menu, lake just wants fresh memories. Its the extraction itself that might cause corruption

one is cause and the other is consequences

[floral mauve]

no matter what kinda of memories they are

speaking of which

what kind of memory is blue cube

regret?

[vale marsh]

The menu thing wasn't supposed to be literal. Just a fun way to say "whoever is set to have their memories extracted for the lake"

I like the regret idea.

[floral mauve]

I get it

I just want to say lake doesnt care what kind of memories

as long as its fresh

[vale marsh]

Maybe that is how the Eilanders screwed up?

[floral mauve]

which we dont know a specific standard

[vale marsh]

Maybe they fed the lake stale memories?

Because I belive the plagues were either:

1.) A trap they set in motion to lure Jacob back.
2.) A consequence of their attempt to persue a ritual they didn't understand. They screwed up some step along the way and don't know how.

[azure bay]

I'm almost sure that the plagues were part of Eilanders' ritual

[vale marsh]

Side note: The Mill seems to hint at Dale's purpose in this story. The corrupted souls from Hotel still wander the lake, and Dale is basically the "chosen one". Idk which of the two cubes he had to get, but it seems very much like they're training him to "save the lake". Owl found him and made a deal with Mr. Crow to put a plan in motion.

[vale marsh]

If it wasn't for the 10th plague I would have believed it was an accident. But the fact the firstborn was not at paradise before the first plague sets off red flags.

[azure bay]

the reason could still be anything but revenge for Caroline

it could be set up

it could be a supernatural event taking place once in a while

it could be hunger for cubes

it could be all the 3

a supernatural event taking place once in a while in response to the cube hunger that was set up

[floral mauve]

maybe the plagues is a second chance alternative plan

or plan B

if they sacrificed Jakob in the first time in the parallel universe where Caroline doesnt care

maybe there is no need for the 10th plague

[azure bay]

I didn't get ya

[vale marsh]

Are we saying there are parallel universes here?

[azure bay]

in what context?

[floral mauve]

its another way of saying if

or

what if

[vale marsh]

Ahh okay.

[azure bay]

I still don't get how you connect plagues to universes

[floral mauve]

nvm

ignore that idea

[vale marsh]

I think it was a "what if Jacob stayed" scenario.

[floral mauve]

yes

that

[vale marsh]

I am curious about your opinions on this.

[azure bay]

Have you played Paradox?

[vale marsh]

It was the first one I played (knowing it was a rl game. Long story).

I almost added a sentence saying that Paradox could be some sort of training.

[azure bay]

Dale's role was explicitly explained in ch2

[vale marsh]

But we don't fully know what that entails.

[azure bay]

We do thx to Theatre

[half shuttle]

Oh yeah that last paragraph is a very interesting idea, I like it. It makes sense Mr Owl would want to avoid it because he already experienced it firsthand

[half shuttle]

I forgot about this, good observation

[azure bay]

I think it's rather minor in comparison with Theatre and Paradox

@vale marsh also I don't think the water was bloody for real in Hotel

For me it was always a stylish coloration over all

[vale marsh]

Again, I take everything at face value. If it was metaphorical, then I wouldn't notice.

[azure bay]

be careful with that

Laura's murder by a CS is metaphorical and it can't be the other way around

in other cases taking things at face value makes no sense at all

most of the puzzles, for example

many exposition notes

[azure bay]

I also have a question

would you see blood there if you haven't play Paradise?

[vale marsh]

???

[azure bay]

I mean, we as human beings interpret things based on our knowledge background and past experiences

reflect a bit and give yourself an honest answer

would you take it for blood if you didn't know about the plagues of Paradise?

[vale marsh]

What other liquid could it mean??? Rust?

[azure bay]

it's rusty lake after all

but honestly, since the water is normal during the day, I bet on the art style here

that's how they presumably used to depict the water at night

or in dusk

if we speak of the logo

because, honestly, since we have no evidence of the plagues happening in any game that came before Paradise, there's not a small chance of them not being a thing during Hotel

that's called soft worldbuilding

new concepts are being added on a go

[limber plank]

Rusty lake is located in Britain

There. Leonard is wearing British uniform of WW1. Case closed. For more accurate location we need to look at the geography of the place. Rusty Lake is located at quite an interesting place. Gotta dive deeper into it

[formal owl]

Very interesting.

[limber plank]

I settled on North of Britain since the lake is surrounded by hills and mountains

But it would've been way easier if we had anything other than just a single view on location

[real lantern]

A lot of people came to that conclusion as well, but theres some other things that pointed to other places, so its still kinda disputed

(I couldnt tell you what those things are, i just know they exist)

[high talon]

i think it was on reddit [if i recall]

[limber plank]

What things tho? Stars?

[covert wyvern]

the reddit and the server, haha.

things to take into account for example are Dale's police car, the motorcycle, the name of the paper, etc.

[azure bay]

they are not connected to the lake

Dale location has to be far away from the lake

[covert wyvern]

fair enough.

[limber plank]

Dale is a homicide detective and just so happened to get a case that is related to the lake

He doesn't need to even be in the same country at the lake

[real lantern]

From here above is one of the many many times this was discussed lol

[azure bay]

I think it's better to share that Reddit post

[high talon]

il go get it

[azure bay]

welp, it's technically mine

[high talon]

yeah but its like rather easy to find on reddit XD

[limber plank]

We should also take into account the overall fashion

[azure bay]

https://www.reddit.com/r/rustylake/comments/qkyfzc/nwh_theory_review_the_lakes_location/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

[azure bay]

what about it?

[covert wyvern]

I think it would be fun to track down the specific fashions ye

[floral mauve]

Eilander and vanderboom fasion

sounds like an art project

[high talon]

walk walk fashion baby

[limber plank]

Different countries have different fashion. The best way to track it down is to look at female clothing of specific era. They're the ones that are most varied. We have all the times and few theoretical locations of the lake. We just need to check female fashion of these locations in said time period

[azure bay]

I assume that's not that easy when we have the US in mind. As far as I'm concerned fashion may differ from state to state

not that I'm against that idea

[limber plank]

This is definitely not US fashion

Like yeah US fashion sure was similar to UK fashion but it still had some specific things that made it different

[azure bay]

did you research it well? including local differences?

[limber plank]

It's my assumption which i will then check. For now it's my gut feeling and two years of fashion design study

[azure bay]

that's great that you have experience in the fireld

it will be easier to replace intuition with factual knowledge

[limber plank]

College ¯_(ツ)_/¯

And well, i'm a bit of Britain fashion nerd. I just like types of male suits they did back in the day

[azure bay]

ok, I have no knowledge here whatsoever. Where do we start?

[limber plank]

The most noticeable clothes are the ones that James wears before drinking the elixir and Mary's clothes in scene where she agrees to marry James. Check out these years and seasons and look at fashion of the areas we settled on. Don't get too deep into US fashion tho. I'll do it. It's not about unique state it's about areas and difference in climate

Look for similarities in patterns, hats and layers

[azure bay]

ok, but before I start I have several things to say

[limber plank]

Colour is also a good signature

[limber plank]

Sure

[azure bay]

1. Outside UK, Leo's brody helmet could indicate US and Canada. I think it's Britain but for another reason. The year on the chapel predates the America colonization.
2. We need to bare in mind that the devs may have not done such research themselves.

So I am rather checking if they did and maybe if they retconned the chapel

[limber plank]

There's a catch, Leonard's uniform isn't exactly British uniform

It has few sudden changes to it

And so is most if not all fashion within Rusty Lake

It's safe to assume that creators DID their research an it was their choice to fuse several cultures and events

So Rusty lake isn't exactly in our world. Is in a twisted version of it

But we still can make assumptions about the main inspirations

[azure bay]

funny enough, Leonard's leg was taken by an american gas grenade and he was also given a german gas mask

[limber plank]

That's the point

We figured out several inspirations but we didn't found the main one yet

And what we're doing rn is trying to find it

[azure bay]

I've heard an opinion that Mary was designed after this woman

[limber plank]

Who is that woman?

[azure bay]

no idea

I couldn't find any info on her

[limber plank]

Anyways. Imma head out to clean the house and then will start the research

[limber plank]

Ok i did a bit of research on US fashion and it sure isn't the case

Us fashion is more "strict" than what we have in RL

[sage token]

Reverse image search?

[limber plank]

Canada on the other hand is exactly what we are looking for

[azure bay]

yeah, I can find it nowhere (only some site with feminist inspirational quotes that was apparently closed)

[sage token]

Ah okay

[sage token]

I've always been a fan of the Canada idea.

[azure bay]

seriously?

[sage token]

(Gonna disappear into the Lake again byye)

[limber plank]

Yep. Britain didn't fully got away from Barroco at that time but still quite close, but Canada seems to be done with it in 1870's. US liked more open clothes atm and we are searching for more closed ones

BUT

Jame's clothes are clearly inspired by UK's fashion of that period

[azure bay]

can you share some reference images?

[limber plank]

Canada

1870's

Britain

Britain

But majority of photos look like this

And THIS is US

[azure bay]

what movement would that be?

[limber plank]

British

[azure bay]

and this?

[limber plank]

It's hard to say because we don't get to see the actual shape of the dress

It might be anything

But the top gives more Cnadian/US vibes. UK stepped aside from that type of tops in favor of more suit-like

[azure bay]

but in general the fashion's got mixed, right?

[limber plank]

Yeah

[azure bay]

and this lack of consistency could either be because of laziness or in order to mislead us

in a way that anything could be the location

[limber plank]

Yep. And with how all the games share an insane ammout of details and thought put into them chances are it's trying to mislead us

[spice frigate]

I wanna add, that I did my fair share of reverse image searching image and I found this site that has various of images 1901 to 1953
and of course, it has the image that was brought up
http://www.photodetective.co.uk/Swaithed-hat.html

Also if you click "L" in the "CLOSING" you get taken to WWI page where they also stared various uniforms and whatnots

[azure bay]

That's definitely british

[limber plank]

Ok but just in theory Dale should be an Owl

Since Mr. Owl is searching for accentor and Jacob's mother was also represented by owl which led to him representing one as well. I dunno it just hit me: "What if the ruler of the Lake needs to be an owl?"

[real lantern]

The roles in the lake being represented by the animals and said animal forms being "passed down" to the next generation is a very interesting concept

[limber plank]

And it sorta makes sence since owl is the most known symbol of knowledge. It would make sence for ruler of the Lake to be nothing else but owl. And this can also explain why Jacob's last form is a fish. Because since Dale becomes the ruler - new Mr. Owl - the previous one shall abandon this form, gaining a different one

But i bet actual Dale's form is a cat... They always follow him around and i just think it's a bit funny keeping in mind fish phobia

[analog yacht]

Catboy Dale

[limber plank]

Yes

I see it as a win

[analog yacht]

Same

[limber plank]

Seeing all the cats that follow Dale around there are no questions left about whether he is a cat or dog person

[azure bay]

And yet we've seen Dale only as a deer

[limber plank]

Hm. Did we? As far as i know we still have no proper idea who Dale is

[covert wyvern]

Dales Deer form is pretty clear imo, when you look at twd and paradox.

[limber plank]

🤔

But on the other hand, we've already seen owl form being "passed down"

[azure bay]

not really

it was just a mask

Mr. Owl is the first inhuman ruler of the lake we know

[limber plank]

Let's just say he's the first ruler we know as a whole. His mother was less of a ruler and more of just having a sorta connection to the lake

[azure bay]

and still, she somehow was the Lady of the Lake

however so was Laura, according to the devs

what it means is unclear

the title I mean

[limber plank]

I'm still not sure how right it is for Dale to be a deer. Just feels odd

[azure bay]

for now we know nothing we can only make predictions based on what we see

[limber plank]

We've never seen two same forms of different humans

But this thought can be thrown away since Mr. Deer is long dead

[azure bay]

I was thinking about that and here are my conclusions

There are many more asuras than we're let to see

enough of them to make showbiz of Rabbit and Pheasant worth while

and every single one of them belonging to a unique species seems odd to me

[limber plank]

We have at least two rabbits already

[azure bay]

they are basically the same

[limber plank]

They share same theme. But aren't same character

[azure bay]

unless we overcomplicate thing

[azure bay]

do you agree that the guests used to be Eilanders in their past lives?

[limber plank]

I'm a bit sceptical but it might as well be. And sorta makes sence for Mr. Owl to want them dead

[azure bay]

and Mr. Rabbit from Bday is confirmed to be D. Eilander the magician

in Paradox ch2

[limber plank]

Wow. Man just reincarnated twice

[azure bay]

everyone is being reincarnated infinite amount of times. That's how samsara works

[limber plank]

I know. But in terms of Rusty Lake. That's the most ammount of reincarnations we've seen so far

[azure bay]

the others are implied in Theatre

6 plays about the past, the present and the future... What we may become

[limber plank]

Yeah yeah. But theatre is bird guys fucking around with Dale's brain. We can't say for sure

[azure bay]

and it's also the devs teaching us about their cosmos

I see no reason to dismiss such a chunk of the lore

[limber plank]

I dismiss whole Van Gogh lore

[azure bay]

Arles is a unique game. It seems disconnected from the major continuity and answers no questions. For me, it's a vague depiction of IRL events (or rather common misconceptions about them) through the lense of their universe

Theatre, on the other hand has a big role in the story. Dale reaches a higher state of consciousness there. He is also teased to surpass everyone, considering some visual clues

[limber plank]

And then he goes to paradox and has to re-live his trauma and possibly gain another one

[azure bay]

before I answer, could you please tell me where you place The Cave along the timeline?

[limber plank]

Ok it's hard. I place Cave after the Mill and Case 23 but before any of the memory insanity we have to go through with Dale

[azure bay]

ok, I agree with you

considering the mural where dale reaches the bottom on one elevator and walks towards another one

@limber plank сan you now tell me why Paradox goes after Theatre?

[limber plank]

I think it makes sense since that's when Mr. Owl actually tells Dale his plans and, well, Mr. Owl is not the person to go on bragging about his ingenious plans before they ever get executed

And there is no elevator in this chapter which may mean he reached what was needed

And since it's paradox, it means Dale is pretty much stuck in this loop which stops him from going anywhere

[azure bay]

@limber plank have you got secret endings?

[limber plank]

Secret endings?

[azure bay]

ch1 and 2 both have a secret ending

[limber plank]

With blue and red vials?

[azure bay]

you need to get 5 achievements for each chapter the clues are in the movie

[limber plank]

No i haven't gotten them

[azure bay]

than I sincerely encourage you to get them and be surprised

that was mindblowing for me

[limber plank]

What was about them?

[azure bay]

spoilers

[limber plank]

Fair enough even if i like spoilers

Ok where's my achievements guide?

[floral mauve]

I dont remember, how did Dale get his fish phobia

was he born with it

[limber plank]

No one knows. It's just said in his card in second chapter

[vale marsh]

Probably going to say "born with it" until more evidence comes to light.

[floral mauve]

fair

I like to see the symbolism behind it since they added this in paradox which is quite recent

a new setting for the main character

the reason for this is because Mr Owl's future is fish

does this foreshadow something

idk

[charred forum]

orion

why u think harvey not cis

[azure bay]

let me guess

a bird that lays eggs has a male name and wears man's suit

[analog yacht]

That convo was mostly joking because of the wiki article

[covert wyvern]

indeed, but if you do wish to theorise do so here

if you do not simply don't answer

[azure bay]

I have an alternative lore-friendly explanation if anyone is interested

[half elm]

pretty much what nowherecaw said + i'm not cis either so i like making headcanons! nothing too deep, just that harvey could be viewed as transmasc. honestly not much to theorize about other than that harvey can lay eggs, but uses a masculine name + clothing style that i can relate to!

if harvey was actually transmasc, you could theorize that being enlightened made harvey 'become' (or rather look) what best fit their view of themself. mostly just a silly headcanon i made tho

[covert wyvern]

which is totally valid mind you

[analog yacht]

That is such a sweet headcanon though. A form to fit his masculine soul

[vale marsh]

I like that headcannon....

mind if I take it?

[azure bay]

May I ask a question?

[vale marsh]

???

[azure bay]

Are you taking it because you like it or because you believe the devs have deliberately put this idea into the games?

[vale marsh]

If it's about that sentence, I was just trying to be cute and say I want to also make that my headcannon.

Because I like it.

Why are you asking that??

[azure bay]

Excuse me if I seem mean. I'm just generally curious about how people reason

[vale marsh]

Ahh okay.

Some of my headcannons are heavily based off what I see/hear in the medium, and others are just like "oh I like the sound of this- I'm gonna headcannon it."

[analog yacht]

I'm similar tbh. Very few of my headcanons are based on "I think this is what the devs were trying to do" simply because it's very hard to guess what the devs are up to. And unless something is explicitly stated, all fan canons can be considered true. Audience interpretation and all

[azure bay]

yeah, "the author is dead"

[analog yacht]

Exactly

[sage token]

I theorize that TPW will be released during the steam summer sale maybe?

[azure bay]

when is it

?

[sage token]

June 23 - July 7 iirc

[covert wyvern]

haha I suppose thats a save bet

[floral mauve]

That’s thrilling ngl

[half elm]

if it sticks to Q2, it would be june 23-31 which is so close

exciting

[covert wyvern]

im sorry how this is rusty lake related @charred forum ?

[charred forum]

OH CRAP

im sry

i missclicked

bruh

[covert wyvern]

sometimes u got the wrong place, it happens

[charred forum]

lol

[delicate atlas]

So I realized something

The photos in seasons represent some life events from Laura's life

Why were they torn apart?

Did she tear them up herself and hid all the pieces?

For some mental health related reasons

Or did someone do that?

Like, the cs who killed her?

[ebon aspen]

Considering how the crime scene in c23 was pretty awkward, id say that the killer scattered the photo pieces, yeah
But im fond of the idea of laura tearing them apart

[delicate atlas]

Yeah, my reasoning fot this is spring photo probably represented her time with Bob before they broke up, and she wanted to forget about him so she tore them all up

The lake one reminds her of the cs that attacked her there

The funeral one doesn't make sense though because it'd be after her death

Unless she tore it up as a cs after she escaped the mill

As a reaction to her death, being frustrated/angry at/in denial with the fact that she's angry

[delicate atlas]

I watched @/nowherecaw's video on Laura's lore

I kinda got some ideas from it

Does the lake and harvey box take place at the same time?

Also, the light that Harvey used to defeat the cs attacking her, and the light Laura used to defeat the cs in the lake, and the light she used using the phones's receptor on her reflection, are they in any way related?

Did she and Harvey learn how to actually kill a cs?

Also, after all of this, it makes it seem to me that maybe in the end Laura was the cs all along and she did in fact kill herself

But it was portrayed this way through these games to make it more poetic

As in "she wasn't in the right mind when she did it, she was someone else entirely due to her mental illness"

And so she sees it from her point of view as someone else killing her

But she eventually realizes it was her all along when she sees herself in the mirror and finally comes to terms with how bad her mental state was and how far she went because of it

Kinda like she went through the 5 stages of grief but only through denial and acceptance

That's all I have

[azure bay]

I tend to think that was just pure gameplay

symbolism at most

[azure bay]

they take place approximately at the same time. By intuition, simultaneously (at least the part after the box arrived). But by pure logic, it could be the same week or 2.

[floral mauve]

relatable

I had this feeling yesterday that maybe the CS from The Lake might be in her head only afterall

[sage token]

But Harvey saw it

[floral mauve]

do they look alike?

[azure bay]

all the cs do

[floral mauve]

well the one in the lake doesnt have huge angel or devil wings

[sage token]

So any CSs have wings?

*do

[floral mauve]

I think the pigeon does

[sage token]

🤔

[floral mauve]

its one guess for HB CS

[azure bay]

"Crow" has hands

[floral mauve]

there is a debate whether the CS in The lake is the same one from HB

it could be two

[azure bay]

any other bird CS has no limbs visible

[floral mauve]

or

as I mentioned, Laura was hallucinating

maybe one

[sage token]

I would think it's the same one, but you're right it could be two different ones

[azure bay]

I'm not buying this unless we get evidence about it

[floral mauve]

we have plenty but it can be read differently

I just have my readings but the result would still be the same

[azure bay]

hallucinations, comas, dreams are anticlimactic if they have no reasons

[floral mauve]

so

let me state why it makes sense

In seasons, at least from Spring to Fall and from ur video

includes the Lake

we see a progression

of Laura's mental breakdown

its shows a bit in Spring and gets worse in Summer

she sees random CS outside her window

and in her lake trip

she saw that CS she was seeing in Spring

then she somehow survived

technically, if a CS wants to hurt u, there is not much u can do

unless u gonna tell me Laura is some kind of wrestler

[azure bay]

the problem is, CS do exist and hallucinating specifically about them with no knowledge is weird

[floral mauve]

Furthermore, the CS of herself is the same

and

it could be her imaginary reflects into the corpse

[floral mauve]

thats the final step before the CS becomes real in her sense

imo, what really happened in the lake is that her mental condition got worsen and then she fished out a corpse which leads to a mental breakdown

she fainted

[floral mauve]

u see Van Gogh?

[azure bay]

Van Gogh is the weirdest game. TWD is a better example here

[floral mauve]

alright

so those are my subjective readings of the lake

if we ignore the possibility of model reuse

[azure bay]

It's simply impossible to ignore

CS were always a sprite reuse

[floral mauve]

sad

[azure bay]

I tend to unite The Lake and HB CS

because the statement "there was a CS" is more simple than "there was a CS and a hallucination of a CS"

[floral mauve]

we see a progression of a woman's mental breakdown, and herself reflection by the end of seasons showing "it's me"

if we read it that way

it is totally possible

[azure bay]

yeah, but it's impossible to bring in later games

[floral mauve]

why?

[azure bay]

ok, not impossible

but it becomes unreasonably complex

[analog yacht]

She changed the past, no? Bet that makes things complicated

[floral mauve]

indeed

[floral mauve]

thats the most complicated shit so far include timeline and stuff

[delicate atlas]

Thanks!

[half elm]

a bit late to this, but i've been wondering about this as well!

because, didn't dale "change the past" with the blue cube just like laura? yet, we see no huge timeline changes (ex. dale is still a detective, which might've not happened if his parents are still alive)

there's a lot of different ways timetravel has been potrayed in media...so he could've still really changed the past yet with no differences in the present. depends on of rusty lake's physics work

[delicate atlas]

Dale changed the past in a memory

Not in real life

In other words he kinda deluded himself that his parents were never killed

This way he overcame his trauma to he a suitable successor

But when it comes to Laura I can't tell if she changed real life or a memory

But the game says "choose your memory"

So I'm guessing she also changed a memory

Hence, why there was no changes to real life

[half elm]

that's what i was thinking too! but i've seen so many strange timetravel stories i just 😭
laura is the one who throws me off, because the changes she made clearly helped her overcome the corruption

and possibly change her fate...which sounds different from dale's case

[delicate atlas]

We don't really see Laura after seasons outside of her memories

[half elm]

trueeee

[delicate atlas]

Like after un-corruption

Only time is in the cave

Where she and Dale are hooked up to that weird machine

But she was "glitching", fluctuating between corrupted and normal

So this makes it seem like it all was in her head

But the question is how did they retrieve her after she ran away in the mill 🗿

[half elm]

good question...where did she even go after the mill?

all of this pretty much happens in 1972...but somehow she has a memory in 1981

[delicate atlas]

Exactly

What did she even do in these 9 years?

Terrorize the city as a cs?

New theory: all the CSs we see in 1972 are her 😲 /j

[half elm]

would be amazing
honestly "what did they do in those _ years" is a question you can give to half of the characters

[delicate atlas]

Wait what

Who else fits

[half elm]

second half of roots is a little weird timeline wise

[delicate atlas]

I can't remember other characters with weird timeline gaps other than her

Hers is just too obvious to ignore or overlook

[delicate atlas]

Ah I see

I guess because they needed to age the characters up

[half elm]

i'll summarize it

[delicate atlas]

So they made some time pass

[half elm]

1924: Frank is found in the well by Rose
1926: Frank and Albert's legendary chess match
1927: Frank finally takes a shower and cuts his hair
1929: Leonard finds his timepiece
1930: Frank looks at the stars + gets his timepiece
1932: Rose finds her timepiece
1935: The final ritual takes place

especially the gaps in Frank's story tbh

I can't imagine him going around like that for 3 years

And living with Albert for 2 years before murdering him?

[delicate atlas]

Good point

I think the shower and haircut was more of a style change

Symbolic of "a new beginning"

[half elm]

true true, but it seems a little strange it took so long especially with the amount of hair he had

[delicate atlas]

And the 2 years before killing him is gaining his trust and avoiding being suspicious and planning for the murder

[delicate atlas]

Man loved his caveman drip 😎

[half elm]

LMAO true but still a little strange....
also it taking 3 years before the final ritual even if they had all timepieces + sacrifices

[delicate atlas]

Maybe they had to research how to do it off screen?

And find resources about alchemy and such

And make sure they actually understand what they're getting into

[half elm]

right right but rose began at an early age, so it seems a little tad strange. but i can accept it...just a little questionable

[delicate atlas]

I personally believe frank and Leonard actually didn't know they were gonna sacrifice their families for William's reincarnation

Feels like rose tricked them into it

[delicate atlas]

Maybe because she was young she didn't have any autonomy to actually look into these things and research it

She only got to do it after Albert's death

Maybe he was in her way

[half elm]

honestly! i agree, leonard seems to want to distance himself from the family and all + frank doesn't seem to be well adjusted to a "normal" life yet

[delicate atlas]

Restricting her from doing research or learning about alchemy

[half elm]

that's an interesting point!

[delicate atlas]

Like "girls don't do this" kind of attitude

And she ends up rebelling

[half elm]

i assume he would hide away the secret basement, so she wouldn't find about how she was conceived

[delicate atlas]

Maybe she even helped frank killing her dad

Since she wasn't bothered by it at all

[half elm]

^^ i think so too. she doesn't seem bothered by his death

[delicate atlas]

She literally dances with him after it

[half elm]

and albert having Extra protection on his grave

[delicate atlas]

Exactly

She kinda manipulated them into it

Man, Leonard and Frank are the biggest victims in this

[delicate atlas]

It could be a possibility

Only after his death was she able to reach it

[delicate atlas]

Like some sort of magic to stop him from getting out or something?

[half elm]

to me, this seemed like a weird ritual (the dress, the lake suite breaking the record just like in birthday). and probably also as you said - she tricked frank and leonard into this by being nice

[delicate atlas]

She inherited her dad's evil 😳

[delicate atlas]

Ah I see

Does this mean he could be a zombie and run away? Lol

[half elm]

i don't think rose is evil in all honesty, it was after all william who convinced her into helping him with the rebirth + having a fucked up dad does not help

[half elm]

😭 albert having an extra plank on his grave is so funny just because of this reason. they really hated him that much

[delicate atlas]

As they should

I too would hate him if I was related to him

Man was a disgrace on his family

Yet they never thought of putting him in a mental hospital

Maybe they didn't want him to get abused there

[half elm]

frank and leonard really got the short end of the stick in this family

• it's implied that leonard knew albert killed his parents through his flashbacks, which opens up the idea he might've also witnessed it. he also got war trauma and all
• leonard also lived alone with albert for YEARS, before rose came along

[half elm]

i assume it was maybe too dangerous...or the cousins weren't in the right mind either

[delicate atlas]

True

[delicate atlas]

Man that's so sad

Leonard is the only normal vanderboom as well

[half elm]

yeah :( nobody really talks about him, but he really went through a lot. and then to be wrapped up in a weird ritual with human sacrifice to reincarnate a distant relative? 😭

[half elm]

the "samuel-ida-leonard" group of the family is pretty much the only normal ones tbh

[delicate atlas]

Who isn't even worth reincarnation 🗿

Like, William's only personality trait is that he's an alchemist

[half elm]

LMAO yeah

then laura died in her 30s

amazing success for the vanderbooms

[delicate atlas]

LMAO

[exotic eagle]

I have theory that the rabit killer in cubeescape : birthday is actually the impostor from among us😳.
Because he is so sus

[azure bay]

👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏

[azure bay]

I'm looking for symbolism behind The Lake tree and it's rituals. Any ideas?

[delicate atlas]

That's what I managed to find

I think it makes sense

[azure bay]

What about the rituals?

the objects seem random yet recurrent

they have to mean something

and have something in common

[half elm]

The leafless tree is very very interesting!

For lakes, it has many symbolisms. In hinduism it seems to be: https://www.hinduwebsite.com/symbolism/symbols/lake.asp

"The placid waters of a lake (sarovar) or a pond is a world in itself. They are often doorways to other worlds that exist below the earth. In Hinduism many lakes and ponds are considered sacred and worshipped because of their divine origin and association with gods." -> so probably, a gate to another world (leafless dark forest?)

[azure bay]

the forest is naraka

a hell dimension

it's cool if intended

[half elm]

Yep! It is one of the six realms in samsara too

It's got to exist under the lake though (or work as a portal to it), as we can see the forest while travelling with the submarine

[delicate atlas]

Can you be specific about what rituals you mean?

[azure bay]

The Lake

Eye, apple, coin, gem

pentagram, pentagon

[delicate atlas]

Oh the pentagram and the pentagon

I'll look it up

It might be something RL made up though so keep that in mind

Learn to use apples in witchcraft, magick and experience apple season as an enchanted realm of earthly delights.

The apple might be best described as the “red-headed mistress of literary symbolism.”  From scandalous biblical scripture to the envy-green jealousy of a fairy tale queen and her poisoned fruit, this beautiful garden gem bears quite a reputation as a mischief-maker!

For the modern witch, the apple tree calls to mind all the ethereal intrigue of daring to explore what lies beyond the ordinary five senses.  Walk through an apple orchard and feel the living, moving, earth-shattering energy that swirls invisibly around us.

Found this on a witchcraft website

The internet is wild

If you cut an apple in half (the “fat way,” not the “tall way,” if that makes sense), you will find a pentacle star in the middle.  Press spell ingredients into the flesh or or use it to symbolize earth on an all-natural altar.

The pentacle

[azure bay]

intrigue, curiosity, supernatural

[delicate atlas]

The blue gem

The pentagram with one head pointing up is a positive one used for good stuff

The pentagram with two heads pointing up and one pointing down is a negative one used for evil and witchcraft

[azure bay]

doesn't fit

in The Lake it's pointed upwards and the ending is bad

occult powers of aquamarine is fitting

[delicate atlas]

I think the balancing part makes sense

[delicate atlas]

I don't remember that

Wait let me check

[azure bay]

I saw something about emerald being about protection

from occult

[delicate atlas]

That could be it

⭐️ this shape is for good and positive stuff

The satanic one is the evil one

[azure bay]

yet the pentagram ending is still bad

[delicate atlas]

How

Don't we kill the cs with it?

Been a while since I played the lake so I don't remember

[azure bay]

Pentagon protects

pentagram...

summons?

(pentagon also summons)

[delicate atlas]

Oh

I'll watch videos of the walk-through real quick to remember

Here I found coins are common in witchcraft

I'll try to find their usage

Found an actual study about this

How do I even manage to do that

Google do be loving me and giving me exactly what I want

Could this fit paradise night plagur ritual when Jacob grind a shell?

Or explains the shell and the crab puzzle?

The other uses don't fit

[azure bay]

I don't think that's it

I've heard an opinion about nautilus shells being about spirals

[delicate atlas]

Yeah that could make sense

[azure bay]

which are development, thinking outside the box

[delicate atlas]

Spirals are a reoccurring pattern in RL

Like in harvey's box

Only thing I found about the eyeball is the evil eye thing

I'll try to look more into it

[azure bay]

would it bare different meanings in different games?

[delicate atlas]

The eye?

[azure bay]

yes

[delicate atlas]

I found that different colors have different meanings

But all of them were blue eyes iirc

The good protection eye is orange

[azure bay]

in Case 23 it was the 3d eye

[delicate atlas]

The one on the ceiling, right?

[azure bay]

nah

the statue

[delicate atlas]

Imo it could be something like "I'm always watching"

[delicate atlas]

Oh right

The knowing all eye

The one on that pyramid associated with the free masons

[azure bay]

too bad we have no pyramids

[delicate atlas]

I think the eye on its own still has that meaning

Maybe it's Mr. Owl's way of observing things from a distance

But that's a stretch

[azure bay]

I'd look for the meaning uniting at least 4 of the items

[delicate atlas]

Light blue might be the answers

[delicate atlas]

Most of them have protection and warding off evil spirits in common

[azure bay]

yet that's not what they do

[delicate atlas]

I don't really get what the apple is for

But I think maybe the variety/color of the apple has some meaning to it

It's not completely red

[azure bay]

if it's earth we could find how the eye, the coin and the shell could be other elements

[delicate atlas]

Oh

The shell is water

I read about that

But it should be on the west of the circle/pentagram

Because the west symbolizes the sea

I can't find a connection between air for example and an eye, coin, or gem

Coin could be metal?

[azure bay]

well, we technically don't know directions there

[delicate atlas]

While gem crystals?

[delicate atlas]

Good point

[azure bay]

I'm speaking of basic elements

[delicate atlas]

But I meant the west of the shape

[azure bay]

something has to represent the fire and the air

[delicate atlas]

Yeah I don't think it fits

The pentagon turns the cs into a cube

Imo that's defeating it/warding it off

[azure bay]

or scares it away making it lose it

[delicate atlas]

Yeah

I'll look into the use of a pentagon

The opposite of a pentagram has a name but I forgot it

Ok so it's called a pentacle

You might be right about the elements thing

The water on the right just like the shell

But idk how does an eyeball tie with fire

Coin and earth can make sense with metals being in earth

[delicate atlas]

Idk how does an apple and air connect

Or spirits and the gems

Maybe the pentacle is used for the elements

While the objects are used for their own meanings and uses

[azure bay]

water fits

eye kinda fits

3rd eye, knowledge

can't find any fire connection

[delicate atlas]

I can't find anything useful about the pentagon

The pentagon in most witchcraft websites has a pentacle inside it

The one in lake doesn't

https://wiccanwitchcraft.wordpress.com/tag/pentagon/

I found this but it's not that useful

Could this relate to seasons?

And tie the ritual in lake with the 4 memories in seasons?

[azure bay]

maybe but it also could be a coincidence

I struggle to connect the apple

unless it's a stupid pun

[naive lotus]

This might be a bit far off.. but they could represent the 5 senses

[azure bay]

what's touch and smell?

[naive lotus]

Yeah your right smell isnt there lol. I thought maybe touch for coin

[analog yacht]

Well, the underworld in greek mythos is associated with the dead as well as riches. Hades/Pluto were both gods of the Underworld and of precious stones and metals. Could be that?

As for the apple with air... err, trees make air? Idfk

eye can represent knowledge so it may not necessarily be focussing on fire.

[azure bay]

I'm trying to reverse engineer the thought process

how do I google a symbol of power and a symbol of law?

without getting vector icons

[analog yacht]

add "witchcraft" to it ig? XD Unless you're trying to get something other than that

[naive lotus]

Or + ancient

[analog yacht]

"traditional" might also help

[azure bay]

so here are my criteria

if it's easy to find a symbol or at least these symbols belong to the same school. They are more likely intended that not

am I right?

[delicate atlas]

Yes

Also keep in mind the developers are dutch

So there's a possibility they researched this using dutch sources

Which may contain information that doesn't exist in English

Or draws from dutch folklore and witchcraft

Or European in general

[half elm]

Doesn't seem to fit, but a little bit of input from an European here:
In Norse mythology, the apple is used to keep yourself young. The apples were golden though

In a Swedish translation it does day one symbolism for it is enlightenment (couldn't find it in any English sources)

[azure bay]

I can find some mentions of apples representing death or power

but how on Earth does the coin represent the law?

[delicate atlas]

Two faced? Idk

[half elm]

^^ immortality basically

[delicate atlas]

Maybe because it controls the economy

[delicate atlas]

Thank you for your input!

Is there anything about the color an apple having a certain meaning?

Like does a red apple have a different meaning than a yellow and red apple?

Or is it all the same?

[azure bay]

it should be on surface

[azure bay]

I didn't see any distinction

[delicate atlas]

Because the apple being red and yellow is really making me suspicious

Why didn't they just make a red apple

[half elm]

Not sure? The sources I find are really vague if they are talking about apples in general or the golden apple

[delicate atlas]

Their art is usually basic and simple, so why this detail in particular?

[delicate atlas]

Oh

[azure bay]

it's still pretty basic

[delicate atlas]

Maybe because the faces of political leaders are usually drawn on coins

Like kings, emperors etc.

And they make the laws and enforce them

[covert wyvern]

gonna just come in here and say, that, while, it may b a reach

[delicate atlas]

So coins are law because of these pictures

[covert wyvern]

the yellow / reddish apples r probably most prominent in Dutch stores.

[delicate atlas]

OH

[covert wyvern]

as a dutch person I can concur this as fact.

[delicate atlas]

Honestly that could be it

[covert wyvern]

carry on.

[delicate atlas]

I too am used to these apples

[covert wyvern]

like assuming theyd go off a reference of sorts id probably draw the thing im most familiar with.

[delicate atlas]

They're probably the most common variety these days

Red apples are rare and are used mainly in art

[delicate atlas]

Valid

[half elm]

In Norse mythology it has a lot to do with immortality/longer life, rebirth, enlightenment, knowledge, fertility, etc. Pretty sure the meaning is similar in Greek mythology

They might have combined different symbolisms from different cultures

[delicate atlas]

Enlightenment would be the most fitting

Rebirth and immortality as well

[delicate atlas]

Yeah that's what I think too

[azure bay]

I prioritize the uniting ideas

[delicate atlas]

Eye could be knowledge

[azure bay]

the pentacle fits well in some places

[delicate atlas]

Like, you want the symbols to be from one culture/mythology?

[delicate atlas]

It's the most obvious imo

Everyone can recognize it

[azure bay]

but to be sure we need to find either the right pentacle or the right meanings for the objects

what could the coin mean in Bday?

[delicate atlas]

Oh actually good question

Brb looking up the connection between coins and time travel

[azure bay]

I think it's rather about the chest

[delicate atlas]

Yeah could be it

The coin is more of a key to open it

[half elm]

Preta + Phed

Didn't Bob have the exact same box?

[azure bay]

no

it was Dale in Paradox

[half elm]

wait I meant coin!

oopsie

No, it looks a bit different

[azure bay]

could be explained by the global redesign

[half elm]

True true, in Bob's case it was used to contact TWD

For Dale: to power up the machine + unlock the box

[azure bay]

I'd say, there, the coin is about a good deed returning

[half elm]

And oh yeah, in Roots...you placed it on James' eyes

[azure bay]

that seems to be a normal funeral practice

in British culture, if I'm correct

in ancient Greek for sure

[half elm]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I had no clue that was a thing!

Reading up on it, the coins were given so the spirit could pay for the transport to the afterlife

[azure bay]

did it translate to more recent cultures?

[half elm]

Can't find anything other than it being practiced in many many cultures

[azure bay]

notably?

[half elm]

Christians, Greeks, Romans

[sage token]

Crow with his ferry always reminded me of the ferryman that takes people to the underworld in Greek mythology

[azure bay]

not you alone

But I don't think it has real lore implications

[half elm]

In some Jewish cultures too, there's few information but I don't think it was necessarily coins you covered the eyes with

Basically:

• To pay for the trip on Styx river in the afterlife
• To keep the eyelids shut. It's to respect the deceased person (as they're 'sleeping') and give them peace. To not be fearful of the future

[azure bay]

ok, thank you

[half elm]

For this reason, I think the theory about the coin being associated with good deeds sounds very possible!

• Respect James (funeral ritual)
• Help Dale change his memories
• Bob was given it from the old lady, sometime after he had given her money. She was returning him a good deed - mental health help (...perhaps not the best in the world, but)

[azure bay]

I tend to see the 1st 2 a bit far-fetched

@analog yacht can you please research some pentacle symbolisms in dutch?

[analog yacht]

That's a bit tricky. While Afrikaans is very similar to dutch, I don't actually know dutch. But I can understand when someone is speaking it

[half elm]

"WICCAN PENTACLE - As far as Wiccan symbols go, the pentagram isn't a representation of good vs. evil. It’s a symbol of faith, a symbol of the 5 Elements Spirit, Air, Earth, Water and Fire (one for each point), and the circle (the universe) contains and connects them all."

[azure bay]

ok, nevermind then

[azure bay]

I'm just trying to fetch the coin

and fetch a bit less the apple

[half elm]

The items might be some weird representation of the elements...?

[azure bay]

I think no

[half elm]

They're a little bit weird, yeah, so not sure

[azure bay]

but there's other matter possible

[naive lotus]

Its more of a pentagon around the star

[half elm]

There's also this...also hard to connect with the items

[azure bay]

birth, wisdom, knowledge, law, power

[half elm]

Seems like the symbol has different meanings, but one "combining" thing is that the five corners are all connected

[azure bay]

that seems more like it

[azure bay]

here

but sure there are other combinations

[half elm]

Ohhh yes that does make sense!

[azure bay]

this one explains the coin

but I guess, not the rest

[half elm]

I was just looking into the planets meaning in it!

[naive lotus]

Water and air are switched in this version?

[hollow igloo]

If I had to connect the objects to the five senses, I would say:

1. the eye is obviously sight;
   2)the shell could represent sound;
   3)apple could be taste, since it can be eaten;
   The problem comes with smell: both of the coin and the gem could be linked to touch, especially the metal coin (wich is cold to the touch), but then I have no clue, so I would exclude this interpretation

[naive lotus]

I had the same thoughts

Also theres such thing as a touch-piece coin

[floral mauve]

smell the gemm

sniffffff

[naive lotus]

Haha

[half elm]

Mercury: The 'ruling' planet. It represents mind, communication, intellect, etc.
Venus: Love, beauty, desire, fertility
Mars: 'fiery' planet. It represents energy, action, etc.
Jupiter: Great luck, authority, wealth
Saturn: Wisdom, karma

[azure bay]

Is there a term for pentacle outer properties?

[delicate atlas]

Yes I agree

[half elm]

The wiccan website described it as the circle connecting them all - the universe

[delicate atlas]

Maybe eyes=passion

[azure bay]

I'm almost certain the eye is knowledge

and the coin is wealth

I just need to find the right pentacle

[half elm]

What about the shell?

[azure bay]

probably in Dutch

[azure bay]

a spiral

and symbolisms connected to it

development, thinking outside the box

wisdom was suitable

[hollow igloo]

The spiral in RL is a symbol for the future, so maybe that could be an interpretation

[delicate atlas]

Good luck on that

Only pentacles I find are elements related

[azure bay]

never saw a pentacle with the future

[hollow igloo]

Maybe something related to time

[azure bay]

Damy, could YOU conduct some research when you have time?

[hollow igloo]

Right, there is the golden ratio aspect in the shell

[floral mauve]

math

[half elm]

1 + 5 = 6 i am fantastic at math

[delicate atlas]

I was gonna say that

[half elm]

"The number phi, often known as the golden ratio, is a mathematical concept that people have known about since the time of the ancient Greeks. It is an irrational number like pi and e, meaning that its terms go on forever after the decimal point without repeating" = eternal life 👍

[sage token]

Did I miss a conversation about Crow's eyes? Bc I got a theory ish thing. You know the phase the eyes are windows to the soul? Crow's got void eyes. So I kinda take that as Crow's soul is a void. Empty. Which is...dark honestly lol

[hollow igloo]

φ= 1,6180339887...

[azure bay]

I guess, I need to attach some inappropriate content to make Damy notice that

[floral mauve]

Oooof

[delicate atlas]

That's interesting

We're talking about blue eyes significance in RL universe

[hollow igloo]

More than eternal life, I would say it is something about proportions.

[delicate atlas]

Like the eye in the Lake ritual

And the eye in case 23

And the eye in seasons

[sage token]

Ah I see

[delicate atlas]

On the ceiling

[sage token]

Don't have any thoughts on that I'm afraid

[delicate atlas]

LMAO

[azure bay]

or just ping @covert wyvern

[delicate atlas]

Maybe infinity?

[delicate atlas]

Dw about it

We don't either 💀

[azure bay]

The eye in Case 23 is hands down knowledge

[half elm]

Whatever they mean, the five items are supposed to work like some kind of yin and yang : balance of the universe

[azure bay]

elsewhere is could be a Twin Peaks reference

[floral mauve]

taoism boom

[delicate atlas]

Really?

[covert wyvern]

Nah not feeling it

have fun though

also ye if u need me just ping me 24/7 idm

[delicate atlas]

I think of them as objects to defeat the cs

[delicate atlas]

Good to know

[covert wyvern]

just a chance ull find me asleep though

[delicate atlas]

I was afraid of pinging you and getting banned 💀

[covert wyvern]

(if its moderator related best to ping the general role!)

nah nah nah not at all

[sage token]

Mods sleep?

[azure bay]

with one eye open

[sage token]

Makes sense

[delicate atlas]

That's it, that's the meaning of the eye 👁✋️

Mods sleep with one eye

Jk

[hollow igloo]

No, it is something more about perfection as a concept. Basically, human body parts proportions and natural objects proportions (like the shell or flowers). The Greek noticed that this ratio was present in a lot of aspects of nature, and so they used it a lot in the construction of temples, since they considered it to be divine. So maybe it could be somehow linked to divinity

[half elm]

I wonder, if it's a balance...if there is some kind of "fire destroys wood", "water destroys fire" type of thing

None of them are in the alchemy bit in Roots, so can't really test anything out

Oh waittt the shell is at least!

[azure bay]

the gem is

[half elm]

Right! Does anything happen if you combine them?

[delicate atlas]

Yooo that's a good question

I think there's a guide on this on steam

[azure bay]

no. the gem is for The Lake referece

[azure bay]

I'm tired and confused

[delicate atlas]

I think the answer is no

[azure bay]

gem+fish=white cube is The Lake reference

[delicate atlas]

Oh

Does that mean the symbolism of fish+of gem=good memories?

[azure bay]

fish and gem are both parts of Laura's good memories in The Mill

[delicate atlas]

Oh

Do the apple and the other objects appear in her bad memories?

[hollow igloo]

I don’t remember

I don’t think so

[delicate atlas]

I went to check

You were right Jack

Imo some of the objects being in the white cube might mean defeating the cs made her feel safe or something

So she associates the objects with a positive experience

[azure bay]

not the eye

[delicate atlas]

The eye is too mysterious

[azure bay]

I guess, it's usually Laura's eye

Twin Peaks reference

or at least it became one in Paradox

[delicate atlas]

Wait

Seasons is Laura's memory, so how come her own eye appears in it?

Is it some sort of symbolism about "looking on the inside"

[azure bay]

That's a pretty bold statement

[delicate atlas]

Indeed

[azure bay]

I'd attribute it to her being a CS

but that's not the only way of seeing it

[long smelt]

Mr Crow is James dad. Prove me wrong.

[azure bay]

lol, burden of proof is on you

but if you insist

you need to overcomplicate their father-son relationship

James had not to care about his father so much that he didn't question his mysterious disappearance

and supposed death

[long smelt]

Not all father son relationshiops is Good.

[azure bay]

statistically little of them are so bad

but maybe you have evidence to prove yourself right?

[long smelt]

Well William is James uncle. And if William is Mr Crows brother. Then he most be James dad.

[azure bay]

unless there could be a 3d brother with the only purpose not to be an alchemist and die behind the scenes

[long smelt]

I don't think so.

[azure bay]

well, elaborate, please

[long smelt]

Well we never get to see this 3rd person. I don't think they would left out such a big detail.

[azure bay]

also we never get to see James' mother

is he another flower child?

sorry, that's a strawman, you don't have to answer that

what I'm actually trying to say is that James' father is not important (Just like his mother)

it could be Aldous, it could be somebody unknown

but that doesn't affect the story in any way

[floral mauve]

this is a classical material fallacy

[azure bay]

can u explain it?

[floral mauve]

basically u miss the big picture by linking all the tiny details

u cant prove its right or wrong either

anyway

irrelevant

[azure bay]

do you have another another example for #🛖｜the-cabin ?

[floral mauve]

I dont think its important

[floral mauve]

just like this

[long smelt]

Aldous is to young to be James father. Cube Escape theater takes place in the 70's. No way way would still be alive then if he was James father.

[azure bay]

sorry what?

did you just change your mind or did you confuse names?

[floral mauve]

what?

I am confused

just to make sure, have u played all games?

[long smelt]

Yes I have.

[floral mauve]

then I dont see the connections here

[azure bay]

But Mr. Crow is Aldous

[floral mauve]

roots secret lvl?

[long smelt]

Oh, I haven't played the secret level. I haven't gotten all secret yets.

[long smelt]

And if Aldous is Mr Crow. Then Mr Crow is still James father.

[azure bay]

I repeat, James' father is not that important for it to be Aldous and nobody else

[floral mauve]

yea, even if he is the father, that just adds another characteristics of Mr Crow being ruthless but nothing else

[azure bay]

and what's the problem with that?

[floral mauve]

?

nothing

[azure bay]

or do you have some other reasons to prefer Aldous over a noname?

[floral mauve]

nothing else changed

[azure bay]

daamn...

Today I've got 2 or 3 insights concerning The Lake-HB connections

[long smelt]

And why does it really matter? Why do you care so much about the idea of Mr Crow not being James father?

[azure bay]

You misunderstand me. I don't care if Aldous is James' father. Neither I care if it's somebody else. Both are versions. Both have their merits and flaws.

I may have my personal preferences but as long as there is no evidence for any of them I won't deny both

unless I want to show the alternative to other people

make them unsure where they should be

[long smelt]

I have been wondering something. If William is James uncle. Why did he give James the elexir when he knew he was going to die?

[floral mauve]

he doesnt know he was gonna die

one of them will eventually

[azure bay]

may I give him a broader picture, plz?

[floral mauve]

alright

I shut up tonight

[azure bay]

that's not what I meant

[floral mauve]

~~me neither but the truth is I have work to do ~~

[covert wyvern]

time to be productive

[long smelt]

Well they give the elexir to the dog that surived. And if I have understand this corectly. If the first person that drinks the elexir lives, the other person drinking it will die. And vice versa.

[azure bay]

1. Nobody deliberately gave James the elixir
2. James' death was likely uncertain
3. Unless it wasn't for them, and they orchestrated that.

In fact in one way or another they needed James' death. But that doesn't mean that they killed him.

[azure bay]

that's not how it works

I think it was James who gave the dog the elixir for the animal experiment sake

and before it was William who drank 1st

and he also was the one to die

[ebon aspen]

James wouldnt even drink the elixir if he knew the collateral effect

[long smelt]

Well then why didn't William stop James? Because the dog drank the elexir first and lived James died. And because William drank it first and died, Mr Crow lives.

[azure bay]

They DID need James to die. They needed sacrifices.

another thing that they didn't have to do anything for that. People are dying pretty well on their own.

[long smelt]

Well yeah, but why is so important that William comes back to life? He isn't even William anymore. He became Laura.

[covert wyvern]

selfishness?

[azure bay]

I think corrupted souls suffer from their very existence. Just like their preta inspiration. I guess, the alchemists knew the drill and prepared a backup plan for the one unlucky.

(damn... another insight)

(I guess, I have an idea why Aldous has no clue on how to make elixir)

(he was busy with the resurrection ritual)

[long smelt]

And then later Laura died. (I think she killed her self or a corupted soul did it)

Why was it important that William came back to life if Laura was just going to get murderd?

[covert wyvern]

unforseen consequence?

[azure bay]

Either that 👆 or it was a part of yet another plan

in the end they needed to extract Laura's memories

probably while she was dead

but yeah, as Damy implies, it could be a plan B

[long smelt]

Yes, but look at the white door. They could of have done that while she was alive.

[azure bay]

no

[long smelt]

Just look at what they are doing to Robert

[azure bay]

They extracted nothing from Bob in TWD

they did the opposite

[long smelt]

Oh.

Wait, why would they need to add memories?

[azure bay]

no idea, but "Without her [the woman] his mind is useless"

[long smelt]

Yeahz that's the pint i was just going to say.

[azure bay]

They seem to be able to record his dreams

they don't need to extract the memories to look through them

and at least for now I can't imagine any other use for them related to Laura

[long smelt]

Yeah.

[azure bay]

(and another insight. Maybe recording was all they needed and that was the reason why they orchestrated his amnesia)

[long smelt]

But why him spesificly? I am sure Laura had friends that all have alot of memories of her.

[azure bay]

is they exist, they could share Bob's fate behind the scenes