🤔｜theories

[azure bay]

In Paradise it meant Caroline's past memories making Jacob's destiny take its course

the same is likely in The Cave

The Golden cube required not some random cubes

but those that contained the elixir formula

William's memories

Laura's cube was clearly depicted to contain this formula

on the mural

in the book her memories bare the elixir insignia

so does the golden cube

Talking about the blue one, yeah, it was used to fix the past

but what it actually does is rolling the time back

and, I'm quite sure it can do the opposite

despite the lack of strong evidence

the weak ones are the cubes of Seasons all of which become accessible after acquiring the blue one

both in the past and the future

you just didn't have to jump through them 1 by 1

and the other thing, the blue cube is marked with a clock. The clock is a symbol of time in general, not only the past aspect

[viral quest]

I like to thing that shes in the limbo in seasons

[azure bay]

Samsara Room is a limbo

Seasons is a sequence of cubes

Like the one on Dale's journey

[delicate atlas]

I'll create a thread for this to not interrupt the conversation going on here

[delicate atlas]

Ok it's not possible lmao

I'll dm you if you're interested

[azure bay]

@manic brook and @delicate atlas I don't think Owl was power hungry nor vengeful.

All he does he seems to do for the greater goal concerning the lake. The major reason he killed the guests was their future memory that shown him his successor. He needs the one because he isn't immortal and needs someone to take his place as the lake's ruler and servant.

He doesn't even seem capable of having any other reasons

1. There was no sense in avenging himself because he was the one to really win after Paradise
2. There was no sense in avenging his mother because it was her own choice and plan that resulted in his victory. Caroline outsmarted them all.
3. There was no sense in general because the guests were technically Eilanders no more. They don't remember their past lives, they don't remember their past life deeds, their personalities were wiped. They became innocent.

[delicate atlas]

Good point

But I don't get numbsr 2

How did Caroline plan that?

I don't remember seeing that

[azure bay]

she discovered the elixir and kept it for Jacob

She saved him during the 1st attempt of sacrificing him

and at some point she was killed instead

and at the end she made the elixir which required her sacrifice

it was necessary for Jacob's ascension

[delicate atlas]

I think I'll replay paradise to remember

I'll keep your theories in mind while doing so

[azure bay]

take a closer look to her elixir formula in the book and also to the final scene after Jacob was burnt

[delicate atlas]

Oh yeah where he wears the owl mask

And that one cs is merged with him

I'm assuming it's Caroline's cs

[azure bay]

right

[delicate atlas]

And there was a vision of dale and laura

But I think that was an achievement

[azure bay]

it was technically a half an achievement

the other half was in Paradox

[delicate atlas]

So the only way for him to see that vision was to be sacrificed?

[azure bay]

the only way to preserve his personality after being killed and to become an asura was through Caroline's elixir and sacrifice

[delicate atlas]

Oh

Did crow and William arrive at the same formula?

And had the same conclusion?

[azure bay]

I think so

[delicate atlas]

Or maybe they somehow found her research

Maybe Crow discovered it by getting close to Owl

[azure bay]

Not sure here. After all, Crow and Owl didn't have the elixir in 1972

[delicate atlas]

Oh yeah

So it was sheer luck

[azure bay]

I think Owl could help to some extent

but that's sheer speculation

[delicate atlas]

Interesting

You've got some big brain there to notice all of that

I barely remember the characters' names

[azure bay]

I can't take all the credit. The community helps a lot

both theorists and more casual fans

the discussion itself is important

[delicate atlas]

Yes

It's really fun to discover the lore

It's a really good story as well

[floral mauve]

Tbh I do agree with all of your points but I just can’t help with the logics

It’s not really a fallacy

For example

Instead of asking someone to invent a theory like physics

They just take out the brain of that person and play with it and the theory is created like that

It’s absurd but I guess it’s RL

[azure bay]

the difference is, in Laura's case that theory was already invented

[floral mauve]

But they didn’t use the content in the memory

They just throw it

And boom

Elixir is created

[azure bay]

yeah, that's weird

we could rationalize that but I won't for now

[floral mauve]

That’s Why I feel there is something logically wrong

Unless

We assume the lake has the ability to decrypt her memory and automatically learns and creates

Like an AI or a creature that has a bigger brain

[azure bay]

the blue cube has no clear purpose for now

it was used but why?

[floral mauve]

For colouring purposes

[topaz shard]

i always thought the blue cube has something to do with time travelling, since we time travelled in seasons and birthday, both have blue cubes

aslo maybe aside from good\bad memories, black, white and blue cubes could refer to past, Future and present.

[floral mauve]

I don’t see present and future in this case

[azure bay]

There was no such distinction. The only cube that showed the future was in Hotel.

It happened to be white but in The Cave a white cube was about Laura at the lake, most likely her past trip

[cold falcon]

i think this is a good resource for thinking about the cubes

[viral quest]

And this is what i was referring to when i said that golden cube lets you see the future

And manipulate it in some way

[azure bay]

The notes are a great source of exposition

yet even they are to be taken with a grain of salt

they require analisys

comparison with other evidence

and the evidence is, the golden cube isn't required to see the future

the white one was quite enough for Owl

what's more, it depicted the same future that was happening in other games

nothing was changed with the golden cube

and potential changes of the future seen in Paradox straightly deny the golden cube

[viral quest]

Who is he?

And what this place may be?

[viral quest]

I didnt said its required

It just combined all powers of cubes in one

[azure bay]

What powers exactly?

[viral quest]

Like you said, white cube can let you see the future, blue can control flow of time

[azure bay]

Can but isn't obliged to

I don't see any difference between black and white cubes ability-wise

Their color is about their content

Normally, they both show the past

In exceptional cases they may show the future

[azure bay]

He seems to be just another logo reference. And also a gameplay element

I can say nothing lore-related for now

[azure bay]

I can say more on this. It's the -1st floor of the Hotel. It's a big cube and it's there for centuries if not for longer.

Can't say anything more specific

[violet dagger]

I have a question
in the family band in rusty lake roots
what happend?

[floral mauve]

I think Albert kidnapped the couple and possibly killed Mary

or she got too traumatised and died

[violet dagger]

so it was a kidnapping?

[floral mauve]

I guess so

[viral quest]

Where I can watch that?

[covert wyvern]

play rusty lake roots, I guess? haha

[azure bay]

Why would he need to kidnap anyone? He's a voodoo sorcerer

[floral mauve]

yea

that

voodoo kidnap

[viral quest]

I cant pay for it rn so i will watch this moment on YouTube

But how level is called?

Family band?

[floral mauve]

yea

[viral quest]

Thanks

[floral mauve]

I suggest u play it by urself since walkthrough is meh

I would rather watch some ppl explain the timeline of RL

[viral quest]

I watched this scene, and when i was very negative about albert, now i hate him lol xD

Lets keep theories now

[viral quest]

What are you thoughts what about is lake itself?

Ive played Cave now, and i went to the conclusion that there could be flood in the past, because there is literally forest under lake

Flood or some event that filled this place with "water"

But I wonder, are cs truly dead?

Or just in dormant state?

How they can breathe under water? Or maybe they are higher beings/state of mind, but in another way that enlightened like crow or owl

Another thing i think of, is ruining someones else memory can reverse their corruption? Like it happend in Birthday

And CS are somewhat conscious of what they are doing since Rabbit left a letter for Dale

[viral quest]

Possibly "darkened"? Like cubes? CS = dark cubes, enlightened = white cubes

Opposites

And how did Laura end up on white cube building?

[fallow hollow]

i belive that and olso they are kinda like ghosts, but um not exacktly

[viral quest]

Have you noticed that you can click on them?

In cube building

I think that they arent ghosts, and they are 100% physical, because we can see bodies under dark envelope

[fallow hollow]

yup as i said not exactly

i think its like being imprisoned

in the dark memories

or by them

idk

[azure bay]

I think they aren't imprisoned

They just have nowhere to go

They are more or less free to leave the lake

[vale marsh]

What about the events of Hotel? The whole game is us killing people.

Unless.... the "souls" at the ending are in a container keeping them in limbo....

[azure bay]

Not always

Sometimes they are bodyless

Caroline, William, the guests

I think these are literally souls becoming corrupted

The thing is, sometimes souls corrupt inside a body

Dead or alive

[floral mauve]

I have pointed out many times

why the hell Laura CS is still in the corpse

is that an evidence of her still able to relive as Laura again?

[azure bay]

I have the same question concerning the drowned man

[floral mauve]

I mean I wont abandon her body either

[azure bay]

Laura is much easier to rationalize

[floral mauve]

since her body is basically the entire vanderboom family

too precious

[azure bay]

It's not

[floral mauve]

well

the tree is also another factor

there are three possibility of Laura's birth:

1. The tree breed it after sucking 10 sacrifices
2. Rose got pregnant by the tree
3. The lake gave birth

I personally think 2 is the most possible

[azure bay]

If Laura was a Frankenstein monster even partially, she wouldn't be blond

[floral mauve]

plant

[azure bay]

plant who?

[vale marsh]

As much as I want to disagree with #2, the events of that game show it can happen.

[floral mauve]

if a tree is involved idk her appearence is anywhere near logical

[azure bay]

Too complicated

[floral mauve]

indeed

anyway

we are stray away from my point again

does that mean she could live again as Laura in the same body

the lake man is not as fresh as Laura's body

Laura's body legit has 0 damage from the environment

[azure bay]

What I can tell, there is some time period between death and rebirth

[floral mauve]

yes

[azure bay]

We can speculate that it may depend on something

But even being equal for everyone

Laura is much easier to rationalize than the drowned man

As I said before

To rationalize by the weird timeline of The Mill

Laura was somehow preserved there from decaying

Either the time stopped there in general

Or it stopped inside the clock

Both could prevent her soul from leaving

The former could be the case for the drowned if underwater is a different dimension

Hmmm

I've got a question long ago

What would happen if you unsuccessfully extract black cubes from a body which soul was already reborn

I think I have my answer now

You can't extract memories because they are mostly tied to a soul

Maybe with some exceptions, considering Caroline's bones being burnt got us a cube

Memories are not only tied to a soul but also to the brain structure and electricity going through it

That was clearly shown in The Mill and speculated in TWD ARG

Without oxygen brains deteriorate

Laura couldn't be brought to life medically at that point

[floral mauve]

perhaps thats what they meant by fresh memory?

since no memories from old corpse

that are reincarnated already to next life

[azure bay]

I see another connection possible

you probably can't extract them when the soul left

[floral mauve]

yea

[azure bay]

because the memories are expected to leave with it

[floral mauve]

yea

[azure bay]

and it could be the other way around

[floral mauve]

?

[azure bay]

the soul is there as long as the memories are

[floral mauve]

ehmmmmm

[azure bay]

as long as the brain has structure

[floral mauve]

maybe for Black cube

does that mean

as long as the black cube has been extracted, that person will live forever in human or CS form

probably suffer

[azure bay]

that's not what I meant

I just connect the soul to a vessel via neural structure and brain electricity

memories can be detached from the system

[floral mauve]

idk

too complicated for me

me dont know science

[azure bay]

it's not real science

it's hardly a model

[floral mauve]

neurology?

[azure bay]

very-very general

[floral mauve]

I also wonder the possibility that CS form preserves body

the lake man didnt stay in CS form until he has been fished

[azure bay]

that's a different matter

[floral mauve]

wha

[azure bay]

I mean a statement "Corruption preserves the body" and "Soul is attached to a body while the brain structure is at place" are independent

only one can be true, both or even none at the same time

[floral mauve]

wha

[azure bay]

they rationalize different phenomena

[floral mauve]

wth

I am confusion

I am not trying to link the brain science into dis

since buddhism stuff is already kinda out of brain science

field

[azure bay]

then you have to clearly announce a change of the topic

[floral mauve]

my bad

[viral quest]

What elixirs do in paradox?

[azure bay]

these are not elixirs

[viral quest]

Are they prototype of true elixir?

I forgot word so i call them elixirs

[azure bay]

they were called vials

[viral quest]

Vials then

Blue corrupted dale, but what about others

[azure bay]

they have nothing to do with the elixir of life and death

they aren't even real

they are about the choice of Paradox

[viral quest]

Wdym

[covert wyvern]

paradox happens inside dales mind

it's not a tangible actual event

[viral quest]

Ik

But what choice

[azure bay]

Mr. Crow and Dale the deer speak about Dale making some choice

What's more, Crow tells that Dale can't escape the consequences of his actions

And Dale the deer says that embracing a CS is connected to that choice

[vale marsh]

Paradox is... weird.

I mean, it's the first one I (remember) playing, but taking it all at face value is... odd.

[azure bay]

it's unreal and symbolic but very important for the plot

[vale marsh]

I'm not too good at symbolism that doesn't match patters I've seen over the years.

So the vials and all of that are... strange.

Implying that Dale is both the guilty party and a victim/witness is.... weird.

wait is that why it's called paradox

[azure bay]

yeah, that's the paradox. However it may or may not reflect the reality

I'll return to this a bit later

[azure bay]

now about the effects of other 2 vials

The red one makes Dale vomit out a key. According to the comic book, it was hidden in his stomach.
The green one kills Dale

[viral quest]

It really kills him? Why(

[vale marsh]

The green one seems to break the loop.

[azure bay]

It's about the true nature of the choice

[viral quest]

Isn't green required for golden cube?

[azure bay]

why do you think so?

[vale marsh]

Wait....

[vale marsh]

There was a vial/elixir in roots that had a 50/50 chance of killing the drinker...

Are you saying it's related?

[viral quest]

No

[vale marsh]

Oh. Because I think the one in roots was also green.

[viral quest]

I dont remember roots too much, only watched videos

[azure bay]

@viral quest why do you think the green vial is required for the golden cube?

[viral quest]

Oh, i mistaken it with secret ending when game was 2d

[floral mauve]

there are two secret endings

[viral quest]

Ik

[floral mauve]

ppl commonly believe the only way for Dale to escape is choosing one of the two secret endings

[azure bay]

how commonly?

[viral quest]

There arent any other choices lol

[floral mauve]

exactly

[viral quest]

This game is called paradox

Then how it is "commonly"

[azure bay]

*anticipates huge revelation from SpaceCadet*

[vale marsh]

Okay, now I'm just thinking about the green liquid in both games...

Because in roots, you have a 50/50 chance of either death or... is it enlightenment?? I forget.

And in Paradox, there is a secret video where Dale picks the green vial.

We know what happens to Dale... Laura, however, ||now holds a white cube||.

[covert wyvern]

ye cuss either Dale or Laura lives, right.

[vale marsh]

Could it be the same liquid?

[azure bay]

unlikely

[covert wyvern]

so maybe the "green vial" could be seen as a substitute elixir of sorts.

[vale marsh]

Well, we know of at least one person who dies to the elixir.

[viral quest]

Laura becomes enlightened and becomes female mothman to drink brains from unsuspecting rusty lake visitors

😭

[vale marsh]

And both are green.... I know I'm getting hung up on this but at least with the cubes color matters.

[azure bay]

I don't think the green vial is related to the elixir because there are 2 other vials presented as equal to it

and these 2 have nothing to do with it

we just have a green liquid

and we have a group of other 3 colored liquids that aren't even real and one of them is happened to be green

[viral quest]

Which of 2 secrets endings may be more canon?

[azure bay]

If you will, I start with the nature of the choice

Dale and Laura are the next elixir pair

they will consume the elixir, one of them will die, the other will find the enlightenment

[viral quest]

I thought golden cube ending is more canon

[azure bay]

the whole construct of Paradox reflects their inability to coexist

[vale marsh]

Well, we know what happens to two of the survivors of the elixir... since I just realized it is in Roots AND the Cave.

And the vials... yes they're names based off their colors, but I think that's because Dale has 0 clue what they really are.

[azure bay]

at some point Dale goes corrupted and kills Laura

even choosing the red vial during another loop iteration doesn't help

"you can't escape your mind nor the consequences of your actions", says Crow

the only way Dale can save Laura is sacrificing himself

[viral quest]

So chances of dying after drinking elixir of life can be based on how much corruption does someone have inside?

[azure bay]

by killing the killer before he kills

[viral quest]

Who is less corrupted, lives

[azure bay]

e.g. himself

The ultimate choice of Paradox is reflected in both secret endings

Dale either accepts the consequences and takes the golden cube and the elevator

Or chooses to save Laura instead and possibly making her take his place

[viral quest]

What consequences

[azure bay]

Did you read what I wrote before?

[floral mauve]

give up Laura

[azure bay]

He kills Laura in Paradox at least symbolically

[viral quest]

But what would happen, shes dead xD

[floral mauve]

well he had a choice to save her

[azure bay]

the game's message is that she can be saved

and the rule of 2 doesn't specify who gets which fate

so I assume they both may either die or be enlightened

and it's Dale to choose

[viral quest]

Sad role for detective

He even doesnt get answers

Hes there to die lol

[azure bay]

I'm not thinking canons, but this is the one in a way that we see that ending being continued in 3 other games

[viral quest]

Tossed around like trash

[viral quest]

Which games

[azure bay]

The Cave, Birthday and Theatre

maybe his TWD cameo

with a deer head

[viral quest]

I dont understand

[azure bay]

The Cave's ending is the same to the one of Paradox ch2 but outside his head

[warm cedar]

What's the first game in the story?

....the first free one.m broke

..........also just realised this is the theory channel. Sorry

[azure bay]

the devs recommend Seasons, I recommend The Lake before it, Paradise is the earliest chronologically

[warm cedar]

Okay!

Thanks :D

[azure bay]

and Birthday alongside Theatre follow The Cave

[viral quest]

How?

[azure bay]

directly. Birthday & Theatre are the stops on Dale's elevator journey. The one that started in The Cave

[viral quest]

So paradox>cave>birthday/theatre?

Nah nah

We can see memory from Theatre in Dales mind in head puzzle in paradox

So it was before paradox

[covert wyvern]

see the thing is

Birthday and theatre open with dale in the elevator

yes they happened in the past, but they open in the present, or future.

[vale marsh]

As far as I know this is like Beyond Two souls and you play the events out of order.

[viral quest]

This game will give me headache some day

From amount of details

[viral quest]

Still valid?

Or cave before paradox or at the same time?

[covert wyvern]

i8d personally go cave > paradox

bc that way you see Dale in the machine at least, I guess.

[viral quest]

So he was taken to memory machine in mill?

[azure bay]

this doesn't contradict me. Theatre and Birthday are memories and their original events were chronologically before Paradox. It's Dale who returns there after Paradox

however that puzzle features all previous CE games

some of them have no way to be remembered by Dale

So I think it's just a puzzle

[floral mauve]

Speaking of this

Its kinda unfair in my opinion and its unusual

we know that Laura's enlightenment is most likely to be her revival or at least go uncorrupted

[azure bay]

we know nothing

[floral mauve]

most likely

to save her

theoretically, if u want to consume elixir

both of the pair gotta do it one way or another but in this case, we only see Dale, he is the only decision maker

and

its just unfair for him since its either death or enlightenment for Dale

but for Laura

she is died anyway

lol

I think its win for Laura one way or another

she has nothing to lose

[azure bay]

since living old Laura says that she can potentially die, I imagine her retroactively switching places with Dale

[floral mauve]

still though

if u consider my point

its not a fair trade like alchemist brother pair

[azure bay]

it is if they switch places completely

Dale becomes a CS, Laura takes the elevator

[floral mauve]

then that will be a big win for Laura

and a big L for Dale

still unfair

for Dale

[azure bay]

nope, it will be the same as Aldous/William but stretched in time

[floral mauve]

not really because both of the brothers are in the same state

but not Laura and Dale pair

one is dead and corrupted

one is alive

[azure bay]

you don't get me

[floral mauve]

you have to make the sacrifice fair

Laura didnt sacrifice anything

she is already dead

[azure bay]

you don't get me

everything becomes fair if you take her death as a preliminary sacrifice

[floral mauve]

you didnt provide any counter argument

[floral mauve]

too complicated

[azure bay]

but technically

[floral mauve]

and its still not fair

Dale is the only person who might lose

her death is already a thing

[azure bay]

so Laura dying in Seasons is a win? I'll go celebrate for her

[floral mauve]

duh

she is already dead and has nothing to lose

plus

u told me

not to mix up paradox and seasons

[azure bay]

//_-

[floral mauve]

put seasons aside

[azure bay]

I'm not speaking of the game

of her jumping through cubes and changing them

I'm speaking of her death

[floral mauve]

we are talking about paradox and ignore what's Laura's future table turning actions

[covert wyvern]

also why does fairness matter, anyway

[azure bay]

that's not my point

[floral mauve]

valid

I mean that will make Dale a big fool

Laura's emotion be like

free revive for trying

[azure bay]

Back to the fairness, Laura and Dale both start as humans. In my opinion, Laura died in the result of Owl's plan. Accidentally or not. Dale's CS' involvement in this is my strongest headcanon than ever. Since my latest addition to this theory

Then I assume if Laura actually wins in Paradox, the universe reconfigures itself. Dale commits suicide by hanging himself and Laura's being kidnapped for the ritual

[floral mauve]

ah multiverse

a subject I am not good at

[floral mauve]

I mean thats a valid explanation

respect

[vale marsh]

Hey... so I was replaying the cave, and I noticed that "chapter 3" has symbols and phrases next to each known cube color (blue, gold, white, and black).

Do you think that's what each cube stands for?

[azure bay]

white cubes are positive memories

black cubes are negative

something in between has to fall into one of these categories

[vale marsh]

Well, the phrase for the black cube was "face your demons"

[azure bay]

because in Birthday Dale faced his trauma and defeated the one who caused it

it was a black cube becoming white

[vale marsh]

What interested me was the blue cube and gold cube.

The blue one has a clock symbol. The gold one has an arrow.

[vale marsh]

The blue cube is what sent Dale back.

[azure bay]

for the blue one not only the symbol is a clock but also the symbol

In Birthday and Seasons it rolled the time back

in Seasons maybe also forward

I'd say, it's a time manipulation cube

[vale marsh]

Sounds like the gold one sends you forward???

[azure bay]

and the golden one is a cube elixir, look at the other page. It makes Dale's destiny come true

[azure bay]

I mentioned the newest addition to my theory of global paradox

but didn't elaborate

[frosty bluff]

So, i finished all the rusty lake's games i found and it seems like they all have a connection between them and I can't figure out how to decipher the story:((

[azure bay]

you can start with this. Just bare in mind that the Paradox part is based on a theory and not raw facts

do I need to explain how to read such scheme?

[viral quest]

Answer is: yes

[azure bay]

The vertical axis is the release order of the games, the horisontal axis is the chronological order of their events

[viral quest]

Vertical is up down?

[azure bay]

Yeah

[vale marsh]

It is so big my phone can't zoom in all the way.

[floral mauve]

open it in the browser

[analog yacht]

oh gods I haven't seen this graph in so long. It was much smaller back then XD

[floral mauve]

he made this one

its not official one

[analog yacht]

Oh, did he? That's pretty cool!

[floral mauve]

the only official one is the small one

[analog yacht]

Impressive as fuck

[azure bay]

Thanks

I feel it's my duty filling in the gaps after RL stopped doing that

[floral mauve]

time to make some patch and 2.0 after tpw is out

[azure bay]

There will be more to it

However I don't feel like releasing a new version every time a new game comes out

[floral mauve]

u dont need to release it

just keep it on ur notebook

or draft

[azure bay]

I guess, I will next time

[floral mauve]

its just convenient

whenever I need timeline reference

[azure bay]

This time there is still content I ignored

[vale marsh]

I just realized something.

I was replaying seasons, and summer shows Laura in the lake... exactly like how Paradox does.

Now, she isn't holding a cube... but her figure is blurry...

Also you get a cube from it.

[floral mauve]

I believe green vial ending is connected with seasons

[azure bay]

Yeah, that's a neat point and I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw it

I was talking about a theory I racently came up with

Or rather a detail

The chessboard of Paradox with Owl's letter about it make me think that the role of Dale's CS is not limited to Paradox

What is this role exactly is a different matter

Someone can use this information and come out with a different theory

[vale marsh]

In cave he's referred to as "the traveler"

[azure bay]

I think it's about his elevator journey

I was personally thinking that Dale's CS was involved in Laura's murder from the very moment I finished the ch2

That it finally was the huge reveal of the case 23 mystery

My views changed a lot since

Now it's not the only version I consider

And no CS welded the knife in reality

But I still seek a way to push this theory through

And I seem to succeed

I recently reflected on Laura's early "trilogy" a lot

And there's definitely a way to incorporate corrupted Dale

[vale marsh]

Tbh, I think Laura's cause of death has been consistent throughout the games.

But I feel like that's one of the few things I'm confident about.

[azure bay]

and what was it?

[vale marsh]

||her throat seems to get cut|| every time her death is shown.

Happened in seasons, in theater, in paradox....

[azure bay]

that's not the controversial topic I was talking about

[vale marsh]

I'm probaby not understanding the topic

You mentioned you doubt a knife was used...

And it just got me thinking.

[azure bay]

Who caused the throat being cut? that's the ultimate question

[vale marsh]

It seems to be a corrupted soul given Seasons and Paradox.

[azure bay]

And in The Cave it was Laura herself

But clearly with a CS around

[vale marsh]

Weirdly enough, in Seasons you said "it's me" when you looked at the corrupted soul in the mirror...

As well as when Laura's reflection was in the mirror.

[azure bay]

Many CS look identically

And in Paradox it's Dale

[vale marsh]

Well, in that case the corrupted soul appeared to actually be Laura.

[azure bay]

That doesn't mean that it was the one responsible. Especially after trying to fix it

[vale marsh]

The phone appears to turn the cs into Laura, though.

[azure bay]

Because Laura was dead and later corrupted

[vale marsh]

I understand that Seasons might be outdated, but still.

[azure bay]

I'm saying that connection between statements "Laura is a CS" and "Some CS killed Laura" isn't that certain

They don't necessarily result into "Laura's CS killed Laura"

[vale marsh]

tbh I don't expect a definitive answer anytime soon.

[thorn lichen]

The doctors of TWD, such as Theo Hoorn, do you guys think that they are human or sth else? I mean, according to the TPW trailer, Doc. Hoorn wrote a book about The Neuroimaging of a Corrupted soul, I don't think that it is something a normal people would mind.

In other words, do they know what they are doing, and why do they help Mr. owl?

[ebon aspen]

Despite taking the trailer with a grain of salt bc it shown ppl playing the game and much likely just had easter eggs, i do think the docs at twd knew at least a little about all the cubes, souls and everything else stuff
They prolly were disguised like mr owl was, harvey, mr bat, mr toad and unseen hybrids could be working there

[floral mauve]

I mean its a new area of science which just sounds fascinating to me

[azure bay]

I agree, that would be quite a nice direction

[azure bay]

I have to make people think

hmm...

what puzzling question should I ask?

[floral mauve]

[azure bay]

Sorry, stray, I'm afraid you know all my puzzling questions

[floral mauve]

bruh

I am not that smart

[azure bay]

knowing questions and knowing answers aren't directly connected

Laura died in 1971

Was corrupted in 1972

But killed Harvey as a CS before that

how's that possible?

[delicate atlas]

It was all a burning memory

Jk

Probably has something to do with her time traveling

Inside her memories I mean

[azure bay]

inside her memories she started travelling only after Winter

before she was reliving her life

[delicate atlas]

I thought she was always a cs inside her memories

And that was the purpose of the mirror reveal later on

As in "I was a cs the whole time"

[azure bay]

she started acting like one only in Fall

[delicate atlas]

Does that mean CSs can't re-experience good memories?

If they get to see their own past/memories

Like Dale got to

[azure bay]

or she wasn't corrupted in that system until she died

[delicate atlas]

Doesn't seasons (not the memories themselves but her being a cs revisting her memories) take place when she's in the white cube room under the lake?

Connected to dale with that weird machine that makes the golden cube

While she was experiencing seasons, he was experiencing paradox

And that's how they end up overlapping in chapter 2 of paradox

[azure bay]

then how is winter 1981 also a memory?

[delicate atlas]

Good point

That probably takes place after the mill

[delicate atlas]

But how did they get her back for this

Did they just....release her?

Or maybe she was shown a false memory manipulated by Mr. Owl

Where she is made to think she went to her house in the winter of 1981

[azure bay]

for what purpose?

[delicate atlas]

Idk

Experimenting with his powers and the white door technology or something

[azure bay]

the thing is, Laura's fate during those 9 years separating The Cave and late Seasons is unknown

anything could happen

she could be let free since her role was fulfilled

she could escape

she could disappear like Caroline (if that's temporary)

[delicate atlas]

That makes sense

But I'm still confused on the mill part

Mr. Crow told her to go away

And she dipped

Then somehow she's in the white room later on

At the end of the cave

How

Did they seriously hunt her down

[azure bay]

I guess so

but that's also indicating them not planning her corruption

[delicate atlas]

True

It definitely was an accident

Triggered by them looking at her darkest memories of being killed/killing herself

Or trying to extract it

[azure bay]

by the way

[azure bay]

where does this idea come from?

[delicate atlas]

Well two sources

One is a YouTube video explaining the timeline

The other is the game where laura kinda "glitches" between being a cs and a human again, while Dale was a human but after being connected to her with that weird machine in the white cubic room he also starts to "glitch"

And in paradox he does turn into a cs

Like they transferred Laura's cs into him

Or split it in half

So if he was experiencing paradox back then then maybe laura was experiencing seasons at the time

And there are cubes in the machine, blue, white, and black

So maybe that's how they use them in their dreams/memories

[azure bay]

the problem is, Paradox and Seasons are too different

[delicate atlas]

Good point

But that's more due to style change and improvement on the developers' side

Rather than the story itself

[azure bay]

I disagree

Birthday is a lot like Seasons

and is different to Paradox as well

[delicate atlas]

What might debunk my theories is that laura appears in dale's experience of paradox but he never appears in hers

[delicate atlas]

So she's going up an elevator as well?

[azure bay]

maybe but I don't think it's necessary

the elevator is just a mean of transportation

the cubes are really important here

[azure bay]

may I have a link?

[delicate atlas]

Sure

https://m.youtube.com/c/RazzJazz/featured

[azure bay]

are you sure? He seems to be stuck in 19th century

[delicate atlas]

I think I also got some ideas about paradox from rustylake explained but he stated that paradox is a set of alternative universes

I really can't remember

[azure bay]

I'd really appreciate you finding the right video

[delicate atlas]

https://youtu.be/ImqhDXWi2kI

Might be this one

Or maybe it was my own idea

But I mixed it up

[azure bay]

no, unfortunately, he doesn't come to Winter there

[analog yacht]

I feel like a lot is missing in that video

[azure bay]

like what?

[analog yacht]

Nevermind that it's only partly about Seasons

Idk, there's just very little explained. It's just a rough timeline

[covert wyvern]

youtuber uses vague title to generate clicks

more news at 8

[analog yacht]

XD

[delicate atlas]

Lmao

[analog yacht]

No but like. I've explained more in half-rants to my boyfriend while he was playing a singular game

[azure bay]

funny enough, I'm making a video of my own

[analog yacht]

And it was one of the games I played so long ago I couldn't even properly help him with the puzzles

[covert wyvern]

cool

[delicate atlas]

Depends on how much you get from the games

[analog yacht]

Ooooooooooh, I'd love to see

[covert wyvern]

ur free to share it uh, probably in #😻｜sotl-content whenever that releases if you're inclined to share it.

[delicate atlas]

I played them multiple times to understand the lore well enough and form a timeline

[azure bay]

you got it

[covert wyvern]

[delicate atlas]

This channel, the subreddit, and the youtube videos helped more

[delicate atlas]

That's cool af

Looking forward to see it

Good luck!

[azure bay]

thanks. Unfortunately, it was getting too long so I cut it in half. The 1st part won't explain much

[delicate atlas]

That's fine

Watching them side by side will make it easy to understand

Just label it as part 1 and part 2

[azure bay]

of course

back to the topic, Seasons being Laura's Paradox is a pretty common idea

I'm even surprised

[delicate atlas]

I know it sounds nonsensical lmao

But I think the different experiences kinda show how different the two characters are

Also, Dale's memories are visited one by one each in a separate game

While laura's is compressed in one game

Plus the lake

[azure bay]

the games communicate themselves differently. "Pick your memory"+"What do I remember?" vs. "Case 23 may be the key to escape my mind"

the visual clues are strong

[delicate atlas]

Where is the last quote from?

[azure bay]

but logical...

[azure bay]

Dale wrote it with a typewriter

[delicate atlas]

In paradox, right?

[azure bay]

yeah

[delicate atlas]

Does this mean he uses RL and Laura's case as escapism from his past?

Kinda interesting

[azure bay]

dunno

it was like "If I solve that case I'll be able to leave the room"

[delicate atlas]

Oh

Me over reading into things:

[azure bay]

well

technically he doesn't solve the case

he fills the journal with evidence

it gets him a safe combination

then, if I'm not mistaken, a cassette

and only after Harvey leaves the last cube

[delicate atlas]

Oh the one with the backward speech

[azure bay]

no

the one that plays Egmont overture

Harvey's song

[delicate atlas]

Oh yeah

[floral mauve]

when I first got in touch with RL community, this is a quite mainstream idea

I once thought its very likely

but after discussing with nowhere and some friends

too much uncertainty and less likely to be

since that will turn Laura's entire Seasons machine attempt be some sort of dream

[azure bay]

anticlimactic Matrix dream

[floral mauve]

bruh

whats more, what kind of machine can reverse the order of nature

u cant just turn a corpse alive after connecting it with another person while making memory journey

From RL, revival is usually more "magical"

through sacrifice or elixir

or to some extent they are the same thing

[azure bay]

Seasons supposed revival isn't magical to that extent

except the devs said Laura made an elixir back then

[floral mauve]

it is still, u dive into the past using cubes and combine it with past life substances

[floral mauve]

wait a minute

was Laura collecting her past life substances in seasons

[azure bay]

pistol juice

[floral mauve]

I mean technically she did collect the past life substances

from prozac, Harvey, cactus

I havent formed an explanation for mushrooms yet

[azure bay]

the mush is about the forest

[floral mauve]

she was high when dating with Bob

[floral mauve]

lake experience?

since mushrooms were planted or triggered in summer

am I making breakthrough or someone already said this theory before

[azure bay]

I have a suspicion that balancing and gathering are sometimes correlated but not all the time

[floral mauve]

I mean she did balance them but in a different way

using the machine

u have to fill it in the right order, does that resemble balancing?

[azure bay]

why are we thinking metaphors?

[floral mauve]

wha

idk

I am not using metaphors

blame English for dat

[azure bay]

I mean

if that's a machine

how something that looks like balancing should be important?

[floral mauve]

wha

idk

I am slightly confused

[azure bay]

by what?

[floral mauve]

by dis

[azure bay]

well

[floral mauve]

u are saying machine doesnt need balancing?

[azure bay]

I'm rather saying that the balancing doesn't need the machine, considering other cases

[floral mauve]

yea...

But I think

in Theatre

thats a metaphor

u kinda need to do something with those objects

[azure bay]

it was

[floral mauve]

insert into a machine or idk

random stuff

[azure bay]

I'm not even considering Theatre here

it was a play after all

[floral mauve]

then what do you mean here

[azure bay]

The balancing was alluded in Roots

[floral mauve]

we dont know what do they do when they say balancing, we only know they have to collect the objects first

[azure bay]

and it was mentioned in the instruction for Dale and his journey. So I guess, the balancing was in Birthday

[floral mauve]

?

which part do you mean

sometimes I cant follow ur thoughts

I am dumb

[azure bay]

One of The Cave's purpose was explaining Dale's journey

• Let the cubes guide you

• Balance the substance of your past lives

• Create the elixir of life and death

• Find enlightenment

[floral mauve]

so you are saying Dale was balancing

his past life substance

[azure bay]

I think so

[floral mauve]

is this a requirement for golden cube?

[azure bay]

not sure about that

[floral mauve]

is this basically another word for reaching a higher mental state

I doubt

I mean its fair to see how revisiting and somehow changes his memories can be healing

but I dont see the point of balancing here, or lets say, what is balancing anyway

why would Dale need it

I thought its for CS to escape their state

which is what we have been seeing

from Elizabeth, David and to Laura (?)

[azure bay]

I guess, any voluntary rebirth would require that

[floral mauve]

rebirth u mean changing form in samsara?

I mean its quite vague

[azure bay]

yes.
or the ones that require some more effort than drinking a magical pee

[floral mauve]

since I believe devs mixed both eastern and western ideology behind it

that makes death unclear

and rebirth

[floral mauve]

bruh

[floral mauve]

do u mean manual

but for example

William

or any Elianders

they dont need to balance anything to switch stages

[floral mauve]

maybe William yes

balance sacrifices

but thats not his past life substances

right???

wait

they are

because for Laura, her pasta life is William CS

[azure bay]

I don't think that was it since the organs were not his

[floral mauve]

and William CS spent his life thinking reviving

[floral mauve]

which is about messing with organs

so they technically become his past life substances

[floral mauve]

pasta life

[floral mauve]

I just realised

in Mill, Aldous experienced both chapter 1 and 2 of case 23

does that mean time doesnt exist in Mill?

or at least idk

or they make time passes quickly but the players didnt catch it

[azure bay]

yes

(the dramatic effect would be higher if you put both statement into the same message)

seamless time skips do doubt happen in Roots

[floral mauve]

yea

but in Mill

we know something is wrong with time rule there

[azure bay]

in the story about the mill in Case 23 the time stopped

[floral mauve]

I think that story is describing Aldous

plus Crow easter egg

[azure bay]

and numbers

apparently they are real

[floral mauve]

emmm...?

did I fail to remember

again

it has been half a year since I play case 23 and Mill

[azure bay]

I'm speaking of those that appear on paper and of those after deposing the white cube

[floral mauve]

I started replaying them today

[floral mauve]

wha

so you are saying lake affects typewriter

I think its just puzzle?

numbers didnt appear above the actual lake...

right?

[azure bay]

they did in The Mill

[floral mauve]

ehm

I dont remember that part

[azure bay]

after deposing the white cube

a code to unlock the black one

[floral mauve]

oh shi

thats true

damn

I remember that now

[azure bay]

another theory

The Lake knows all the codes :з

[analog yacht]

Were they the same numbers? I suddenly can't remember, but that'd be a cool detail

[azure bay]

no, the were not

[analog yacht]

Awww

[azure bay]

Was anyone thinking through the timeline before Paradise begins?

E.g Jacob's and Caroline's lives during those 15 years

[delicate atlas]

I was

But could never figure out anything interesting

The part where they sacrifice Jacob as a kid, and when they sacrifice Caroline later on, and his return to the island confuse me a bit

The timeline wasn't communicated to me properly

Did Caroline send jacob away and he only returned when he heard about her death? And if so, wasn't she killed after he left? How did he grow to be 18 or something and only heard about his mom's death then???

In other words, when does Caroline's sacrifice takes place?

[azure bay]

according to the first memory it was at least when her children was somewhat grown up

the most natural thing to assume is just before the game starts but that doesn't really make sense, considering some other facts

[delicate atlas]

Yeah exactly

[azure bay]

what are they?

can we remember?

[delicate atlas]

And the black cubes playing the memories make it seem like jacob saw it happening

[azure bay]

these are

Caroline's cubes

[delicate atlas]

Yes

[azure bay]

and you can look into someone's else cubes

established since Hotel

[delicate atlas]

Idk it seemed like only jacob could

It seemed like Nicolas couldn't

[azure bay]

He could

he couldn't find what he was looking for

[delicate atlas]

Oh

[azure bay]

maybe he didn't know what to look at

or didn't have enough time

[delicate atlas]

Yeah that might be it

Also, if Jacob left as a young child, how did he continue living on his own?

I assume he lived with relatives or something

[azure bay]

honetstly, I don't think that's impostant

[delicate atlas]

Good point

[azure bay]

like the identity of James' father

[delicate atlas]

I'm gonna go with Mr. Crow lol

[azure bay]

whether that was Aldous or a different unknown sibling

both options pose some problems

[delicate atlas]

Maybe a sister's husband?

A brother-in-law

[azure bay]

(he wouldn't be Vanderboom then but we digress)

[delicate atlas]

And that's why he wasn't on the "alchemist brothers" picture

Oh right forgot about that

But it does happen sometimes where a husband takes his wife's last name

Idk why it happens though

[azure bay]

for some reason I doubt that the devs have been thinking this through at all. especially James' father taking his wife's last name

[delicate atlas]

True

They just vibed real hard

[azure bay]

I prefer to think that there was just a 3d brother that wasn't alchemist

[delicate atlas]

This especially shows with winter in seasons

I can't make sense of it

Maybe future games will explain it

[azure bay]

lol I did, but spoilers

[delicate atlas]

Go on

I played it

[azure bay]

I mean...

Spoilers for my current project

[delicate atlas]

I played the entire series except the tpw demo

OH

Lmao

Alright I'll wait for it

[azure bay]

but back to the topic

what facts contradict Caroline being killed before Jacob's arrival?

as Nicolas was saying

@delicate atlas

[delicate atlas]

I kinda can't remember

I'll check the playthrough and tell you

These

"Take me instead"
Lets the kid run away
Gets burned right after (at least that's what I think is implied)
He only gets a message about it years later

[azure bay]

not sure about her being burnt

[delicate atlas]

Like they needed a strong reason to make him comeback and they staged this funeral thing

[azure bay]

can you upload all the memory screenshots?

in the order of seeing

[delicate atlas]

In the order of the game?

The way it was revealed?

[delicate atlas]

This happens first

Then this

And then this

Plagues wise

And probably timeline wise to make it make sense

[azure bay]

I mean

all the memories

[delicate atlas]

The other memories have nothing to do with this

[azure bay]

I know but they might be helpful

[delicate atlas]

It's mostly Jacob remembering his dad saying weird stuff and his mom being happy he was born

And a family picture

When they were young

[azure bay]

when we get something clear it may narrow down the possibilities for the others

[delicate atlas]

Alright

That's all, in order as showed in the game

The part with her burning reminds me of the Salem witch trials

Jacob being sacrificed is him being lowered into the well that is in the lake

While Caroline was burnt alive

The same way they used to kill witches

It was also the 1700s

So it makes sense a little bit

[azure bay]

I'd say that the 1st one is the most recent

[delicate atlas]

Yes

[azure bay]

then they all seem to go hronologically

except for the last one

[delicate atlas]

How, it seems like she was burnt alive before helping jacob in this order

Yeah the cave ones are probably the oldest

[azure bay]

not so sure

[azure bay]

you accidentally switched their places

[delicate atlas]

I don't think she had time to write any more stuff when her son is being sacrificed and she's offering to be in his place

[delicate atlas]

Oh my bad

The playlist had them switched lol

[azure bay]

If we assume that Caroline was sacrificed in the way Jacob was

she had to go down and bring the masks

[delicate atlas]

So they did sacrifice her?

But had to burn her later?

[azure bay]

at least Nicolas made it look so

I guess she could try delaying her death by offering another way of enlightenment

she found elixir after all

[delicate atlas]

That could be it

[azure bay]

but the order implies that she discovered it before Jacob's sacrifice attampt

[delicate atlas]

Yeah that's how I understood it

[azure bay]

what is the 1st memory? it's the one making me think that Caroline didn't die long ago

[delicate atlas]

she discovered the elixir
Nicolas was planning to sacrifice jacob
Nicolas found out about her elixir
he decided to kill her to get her research but couldn't understand it alone
he sends a letter to Jacob to make him come to paradise
he gets what he wanted
he sacrifices Jacob like he always planned to

[delicate atlas]

It's from the first plague

[azure bay]

(he doesn't get what he wanted)

[delicate atlas]

With the blood water

[delicate atlas]

Didn't the eilanders get reincarnated into asuras, aka enlightenment?

[azure bay]

not through elixir

if that was his goal

[delicate atlas]

Yeah maybe he never figured it out and went with plan b, sacrificing jacob

[azure bay]

I know where it comes from

I'm rather asking about what we see

[delicate atlas]

Iirc there might be a date on it

But maybe I'm mixing it up with another coffin

I'll check

[azure bay]

I don't think there was

I even sure there wasn't

[delicate atlas]

Nvm

[azure bay]

in fact, we see the grown up children over a coffin and Nicolas asking the lake to accept their sacrifice and enlighten them

how can we interpret this?

[delicate atlas]

There's a date on this letter

[delicate atlas]

They killed her recently

So the question is, why didn't they sacrifice her immediately after taking jacob down?

Right when she offered herself to be sacrificed

[azure bay]

what if they did?

[delicate atlas]

Why wait all these years

Then how did jacob grow up

That indicates a few years passed

[azure bay]

no, I mean they killed her right then but performed the ritual from the cube recently

[delicate atlas]

Oh that might be it

[azure bay]

15, to be exact

[delicate atlas]

Did they preserve her dead body all that time?

[azure bay]

that's another very good question

because she wasn't seen in the coffin

at least during the plague 9

[delicate atlas]

Yeah she's always seen as a cs

[azure bay]

I mean her bones

[delicate atlas]

Oh yeah