🤔｜theories

[ebon aspen]

i assume they didnt know about enlightenment
unless the formula from carol was just a "new edition", i thought she was the pioneer on making elixirs
for me the cult focused on keeping the lake calm
if sacrificing firstborns was enough the eilanders wouldntve become asuras

to become enlightened one must make amends with the past lives and stuff
so ig their process was nothing but incomplete, prolly bc they didnt know the details

[hollow igloo]

I agree with Parrot. Also, there is the painting representing the plagues, so it is possible that it is not the first time the lake shows its power by manifesting them. So maybe the cult knew that, if sacrifices are not made, the plagues would occur, like the punishment of a god. Maybe in their original interpretation “enlightenment” was just a gift for the Lake if they behave well (like the Christian Paradise, if you want), and had nothing to do with the RL concept of “enlightenment”. Maybe the word “enlightenment” is used in the RL universe because it was originally though, possibly by Caroline, as en extension of the Eilander’s enlightenment, and then was spread by Owl to other characters. So it’s basically a thing of “who came first”: maybe it is the RL enlightenment that originated from the Eilander’s, not the Eilander using “enlightenment” to describe the same concept.

[azure bay]

The elixir and Caroline's formula has nothing to do with Death of The Firstborn

Eilanders asked the lake for enlightenment in exchange of sacrifice

They burnt Jacob and somehow got enlightened

the problem is, the elixir doesn't work like that

the rule of 2 is consistent elsewhere

"a person dies to enlighten a single person"

not the whole family

and that very rule was stated in Caroline's book

So I expect their ritual working separately

[weary oxide]

so in ideal circumstance，it should only enlighten one person

[azure bay]

if we speak of elixir, yes

[weary oxide]

and what about other things beyond elixir？

[azure bay]

they asked the lake

so I expect the lake accepting their sacrifice

[weary oxide]

so， you mean eilanders sacrifices Jacob and Caroline to make a deal with the lake?

[azure bay]

I'm not speaking of Caroline rn

I'm speaking of Jacob

[weary oxide]

instead of making use of the one die one enlighten theory

[azure bay]

He's the firstborn to be sacrificed during the day of the lake

[weary oxide]

Oh

and in the end Jacob and his 5 families all became asura?

[azure bay]

It's a bit more complicated

Jacob is a sacrifice. Sacrifices don't normally win in such cases. But here comes Caroline's elixir

Caroline sacrifices herself to enlighten Jacob's soul

[weary oxide]

That's sensible

so if jacob become asura

what's the sacrifice Nicholas gives to the lake?

[azure bay]

Jacob's life

but Caroline catches Jacob's soul before it's reborn randomly

[weary oxide]

yes， this is a proper explanation of the end of the paradise

[azure bay]

yet we face a problem

the cult effectively ceased to exist after Eilanders' elightenment

why didn't it happen earlier during a different generation?

That's the question I'm asking today

[weary oxide]

so.you mean why things alike didn't happen eariler?

or the crazy love of the cult disappears?

[azure bay]

I mean this. Why didn't at least the previous generation kill its firstborn on another day of the lake, be enlightened and leave no successors?

or in general

did they perform such a ritual? and if they did how did they pass their heritage?

Parrot sais, they didn't because Caroline was a novator

Yet there's no evidence of Caroline being connected to that kind of ritual

What's more, she was clearly against it

[weary oxide]

i remember in plague 4 there is a book introduce relevant information

who wrote the book?

....or who read that book?

I think is Nicholas

maybe Nicholas read that book

but he found that the method told in the book lacks a necessary element

so he tried to find it and that is memory

this is match with Nicholas"s lines in plague 4

[azure bay]

The book was written by Caroline

that was her to draw the elixir formula from there in later memories

plus, her being the author was confirmed in Paradox

now to Nicolas

He needed the elixir formula hidden in Caroline's memories

but Caroline was saving it for Jacob

"Don't let them use my memories"

and since he didn't even get the elixir, he had to stick to the only way he knew

"Please take our sacrifice and enlighten us"

[weary oxide]

i think this theory
make sense

[fleet haven]

I wonder what is Harvey hiding! I think he have a more important place in the stories that it seem, especially if the easter egg when we found him as a parrot in Paradise is real and cannon, because it would mean that he was there before everyone, even Mr Owl! Seriously, how old is this Psittacus!?

Or maybe there is multiple Harveys? (That would make me a bit sad 😢 )

[pallid echo]

this could be easily explained. assuming rusty lake takes place in North America (specifically the USA as it seems to be implied based on the accents n all that) the eilanders likely don't have many ancestors that lived on the lake. after all, this was in the late 1700s and colonization of the US was still p fresh

also trying to parse this theory makes my brain hurt bc I do not understand rusty lakes story no matter how much I try qwq

[covert wyvern]

huh thats actually a pretty reasonable take considering the us independence and all that

[pallid echo]

also I'm messy w the lore but I personally headcanon that Mr Owl's more morally-gray/"evil"/antagonistic side comes from caroline bc she seems p morally gray (she stopped nicholas from killing jakob when he was a kid, but seemed to be directly involved with the cult-running and likely didnt rlly try to stop any other abuse if not directly partook in it), whereas jakob seems primarily to be helpful and just kinda does whatever others tell him

any thoughts on that?

[covert wyvern]

I honestly don't know. I think my primary question on that would be; how much is Mr. Owl even himself, for all we know he's simply a conduit for the lakes greater will lmao

or well I guess there's probably some good guesses you can make, it definitely seems like he has personality at least.

[cold falcon]

assuming it takes place in new england id say they could have had at least 5 generations

[pallid echo]

yeah but the eilanders seem like they might have moved onto the island themselves

@ nighteyes

[cold falcon]

yeah it would depend on timeline stuff that isnt really confirmable

[pallid echo]

I think that whole conduit thing also kinda is in line with jakob being so passive. like, he's in there, but he's a minor entity that composes mr owl alongside caroline and god knows what else

[covert wyvern]

yes I suppose that's true!

[pallid echo]

I definitely headcanon that the slaughter in hotel was Caroline's revenge more than jakobs, since he was actively a part of his own murder

caroline however was just straight up murdered, not like, cult suicide murder brainwashing stuff

I also think that she should get to go ape shit

[azure bay]

The only problem of the theory that places the lake in North America is the chapel. The year on its front predates colonization and its architecture pretty much corresponds that year

[azure bay]

I disagree on 2 topics here.

1. Caroline living inside Owl contradicts the elixir rule of 2 "one dies so the other finds enlightenment". This rule is consistent and was mentioned even in Caroline's book. Considering this, the ending could be seen as Jacob absorbing his mother while keeping his own personality intact. That also corresponds Owl's own words in Paradox as well as his inability to make a proper elixir.

2. Even if there were revenge on the guests, it would be only a minor reason.

The major reason was the future memory of the guests to see Dale.

Everything Owl does throughout the series is finding and preparing a successor.

He is so determined that he doesn't really need that revenge. After all, he was the true winner of Paradise. Neither Caroline needed to be avenged since her sacrifice was her plan all along that led him to this victory. She effectively outsmarted them all at the last moment.

[cold falcon]

that's a good point that i overlooked. seems like it could be the Netherlands?

[covert wyvern]

No.

No mountains like that around here.

[cold falcon]

ok yeah i wasn't sure

[covert wyvern]

haha ye as a resident since birthI'd like to think I know the geology around here !

its a fair assumption, though, based on names and the like.

Im personally a "The lake is its own subspace bubble with many exits and entrances" believer

its a really boring answer

but one that works!

[cold falcon]

yeah i get the vibe that anything is possible through cubes

[covert wyvern]

as "proof" id personally point towards the ARG

and memory cubes popping up across the globe

But I realise that;s not exactly tangible

I just think it sort of solves most if not all contradictions? the Uniform seen worn in the world war, the chapel year.

[floral mauve]

I think this one can link to pheasant theory

We never know what happened to eilanders right after performing the death of the first born

Perhaps they know the ritual was a success and they were left some time to prepare

Such as leaving offsprings

Before I always assumed they all went straight into the samsara and wait for next life asura

But u gave me the new idea

[weary oxide]

hey guys， what's your opinion of different vials in paradox?

in other words, what's the effect of the 3 vials?

maybe the red vial let you to view Laura's death and continue the loop?

the blue vial make you be come courrpted and continue the loop

and the green one means dale
sacrifice himself to make Laura get enlightenment

and…what's the relationship between green vial and golden cube ending?

[azure bay]

Paradox is about a choice made by Dale of who will take a journey to the enlightenment (or at least will live on)

Blue vial seems to be some kind of mistake or other action that implies normally inescapable consequences.

The red vial is an attempt to avoid these consequences and maybe the ultimate choice yet in vein

The choice itself happens in the secret endings

The golden cube is accepting the consequences and finally taking that journey

While the green vial is preventing them. Sacrificing oneself. Killing the killer so Laura lives

Laura's death here is a metaphor of Dale and Laura unable to coexist. If this unravels the mystery of her death, it's rather symbolic because Dale can't be a direct evident killer. He can be either indirect or hidden

There is also a pov even less known. That Paradox isn't the choice yet but rather its foreshadowing.

However if you believe that the cubes can change the reality, it's unlikely

[floral mauve]

@azure bay do u agree what I wrote previously

Don’t just ignore me

[azure bay]

I tend to agree. That could be a reason

[floral mauve]

Yey

[azure bay]

I just want to try finding a reason not connected to a theory without evidence strong enough

However, as I think about it, we only need non-instant enlightenment

[floral mauve]

exactly

the ritual thing is never the same as the elixir

because usually its one die other get enlightened

but for ritual

is first born die

rest get enlightened

doesnt seem to be very fair

thats why I added the hypothesis that only elixir made asuras have prolonged life

[azure bay]

It seems useless to me to judge what's fair and what's not

it's simpler to assume that asuras work the same no matter how they got there

every deviation including those I make myself are complicating the bigger picture

I don't know why you mentioned the prolonged life but not instant enlightenment isn't what we expect after seeing Mr. Crow

elixir or not

this is potentially the answer but I am not very satisfied with it

it requires remembering guests' ages

which may have been retconned 10 times since 2015

so I'm still searching for an alternative

because the biggest problem of frequent day of the lake is Margaret

why didn't her generation ascend?

Why didn't she sacrifice Nicolas? Or if he is not her firstborn, what was the problem with his older sibling?

[pallid echo]

I think Nicholas started the cult , it makes the most sense

also unrelated but I headcanon Nicholas' middle name to be Abraham and jakobs to be Isaac and I won't clarify why ndndbfsn

[azure bay]

the problem is, a picture with the day of the lake prophecy looks old and features a ton of people. Eilanders seem to be just remnants

and all the monumental cult buildings? Did Nicolas and Gerard build them alone?

[pallid echo]

i dont think the picture is necessarily literal

it could also be a prophecy relating to a certain year

like maybe it was foretold to happen in 1790-something so margaret had no reason to engage

tbh margaret just sort of seems like shes vibing

[azure bay]

I think otherwise

It's a piece of culture

a part of their creed

it's hard to create in one generation

as well as their temples

[pallid echo]

well, its also important to note that time in rusty lake is very strange

[azure bay]

what do you mean?

[pallid echo]

time doesn't seem to be exactly linear

[azure bay]

what do you mean?

[pallid echo]

well, i feel like the essence of rusty lake is very based on the mind - memories, souls, etc - and it doesn't seem to follow the laws of reality so much as it follows the laws of the mind. for instance, mr rabbit killed dale's family, and the memory of the magician has him be "D. Eilander", but david would have been LONG dead when dale was a child - this gives some evidence to the theory that the lake doesn't experience time the same way the normal world does

[azure bay]

Mr. Rabbit was reborn at least twice before killing Vandermeers

[pallid echo]

the memory of the murder shows mr rabbit, yes, but the number you call to get the magician on the phone is david

basically, i think a LOT of rusty lake's story is metaphorical

[azure bay]

and Mr. Crow is Aldous

that was his name when he used to be a human

[pallid echo]

and in some ways isn't really supposed to make sense logically. it makes sense the way a dream doe

does*

[azure bay]

it definitely has some of this

but there are real events

logical events

and it's the majority

[pallid echo]

thats true, but the rebirth cycle doesn't add up. david became mr rabbit, then mr rabbit died in the 1800s during hotel - but in the 1930s-ish when dales parents were killed, mr rabbit was already dead and the rebirth cycle would have had him be different

he wouldnt be reborn as mr rabbit twice

and he's clearly mr rabbit in the memories, not a corrupted soul

[azure bay]

ok, we can go deeper into this

it's Mr. Rabbit's soul who travels and not the time bending itself

like Laura

or Dale

It's an unusual guest at rather usual place

talking about the time near the lake

Jacob spent 15 years away from it and his relatives aged as expected

3 generations of Vanderbooms lived by its shore and neither encounter time shenanigans

[pallid echo]

unrelated but we can all agree that jakob was a GIGANTIC 5 year old right-

[cold falcon]

you go back in time to save the ww1 guy

[pallid echo]

^^^

i feel like rusty lake also plays with the idea of parallel dimensions a lot

[azure bay]

if that's true, it's once again an unusual guest at a rather usual place

it was miles away from the lake

[pallid echo]

and if the lake is its own entity, it's entirely possible that the lake itself created the plague prophecy and the painting simply appeared

[azure bay]

there is no evidence of the lake acting in such fine way

It's just more natural to assume that it was created by people

and by people before Nicolas

[cold falcon]

i think you guys can both be right, its a thing that is part of the islands culture but still isnt able to be preformed every generation

[azure bay]

And I'm searching for reasons why it can't be

because they tried it twice with Jacob alone

and probably once with Caroline

[pallid echo]

hm

you know what?

it's possible that nicholas and gerard had an older sibling

perhaps the lake ceremony did occur

we never do see nicholas and gerard's childhood

so we have no way of knowing if they had an eldest sibling

especially if the 3-child pattern we see throughout the games applied to margaret

every parent except for dale's and rose has 3 kids iirc

[azure bay]

yeah but why don't they feel enlightened?

[pallid echo]

other than margaret

well

maybe margaret's husband was the one that got enlightened?

[azure bay]

why? what was the difference?

[pallid echo]

well, i dont think all the eilanders got enlightened

i think "true enlightenment" involves being some manner of caretaker for the lake

[azure bay]

I tend to disagree

enlightenment is connected to samsara and not the lake

[pallid echo]

whats samsara again-- sorry its been about a year since ive played rl

[azure bay]

a constant cycle of rebirths

[pallid echo]

OHHH ok

[azure bay]

in different forms

originally, enlightenment is leaving this cycle

but in RL it seems to have a different meaning

to be reborn in a higher form

[pallid echo]

well, the eilanders didnt reach enlightenment when caroline died, even tho she took jakob's place in the ritual

[azure bay]

I think the deal was in the firstborn

[pallid echo]

hmmm

idk then! i mean, rusty lake's lore is super complex and kinda nonsensical

which works both to its benefit and to its detriment

oh can i bring up another interesting theory thing largely unrelated to this?

[azure bay]

maybe it's also about the generation

[pallid echo]

yea

fr tho what is with the deer motiffff

what does it meannn

2/3 of the characters associated w deer are like, terrible people

and then there's dale

[azure bay]

Dale is emotionally connected to Mr. Deer's soul

[pallid echo]

what abt albert?

[azure bay]

he's a potential candidate to be reborn as Dale yet I kinda don't want this scenario

we'll see in TPW

it's about fixing Albert's death

and Nicolas isn't that bad

in comparison to Albert

and even Albert seems to be a good father

[pallid echo]

i wouldnt be so sure

rose doesnt seem like a very happy individual

i'd say both are pretty terrible

[azure bay]

yet in the demo they share a picture. plus, Rose is willing to help him there

[pallid echo]

well, if we're being realistic about emotions, it's incredibly common for abused children to continue to support and aid their parents

[azure bay]

Well, Rose seems to prioritize either William or Frank over him

[pallid echo]

yeah, which is realistic - again, abused ppl will prioritize others in general, and often wont stop their abuser UNLESS they hurt someone else

albert seems to lack basic compassion and in general be a sleazebag, so i don't imagine he was much different to rose. and even if he was, he likely viewed her more as a possession than a child

[azure bay]

I think it's your subjective interpretation

mine says he crated Rose to be loved at least by someone

[pallid echo]

the game has a lot of themes about psychology and mental health so i don't think it's too far off-base to think they'd handle psychology realistically

oh well yea

but being loved by someone doesnt necessarily mean you love them back

even the people he does love are questionable. after all, his 'love' for ida wasn't exactly.. love

it was obsession

[azure bay]

notions of psychology in one games aren't automatically translated over others

and general notions are not guarantee that you guessed the diagnosis right

[pallid echo]

im not saying there's no way you're correct, i'm saying that logically it makes more sense for rose to feel a sense of duty to albert regardless of how he may treat her

after all, jakob shows the same sort of dutiful child personality she does, even though his father tried to murder him

tho id say rose resembles elizabeth more

[azure bay]

Both Jacob and Rose were working for a corrupted soul

I think Caroline explained Jacob her plan

[pallid echo]

but how? she doesn't seem to be able to get much across to him

and anything she does get across is very cryptic

[azure bay]

it may be cryptic for us

[pallid echo]

well, the game is directly through jakob's eyes, so he experiences the same things the player does, like dale

i suppose the times between the plagues could be when his mother shared the information with him, but we've seen that corrupted souls arent exactly the most talkative

[azure bay]

she had a complicated plan

complicated plans are more likely to work when you share them with their actors

[azure bay]

no, there can be gameplay reasons distorting the narrative. Paradox is a good example of that

There are 3 vials in the cabinet in the movie but only 1 in every chapter

[pallid echo]

i mean tbf the movie is like an abbreviated version of the game

which makes sense

[azure bay]

yet Crow speaks more there

and Dale sees more in some cases

[pallid echo]

but complicated plans are also very likely to work if the actor has no idea what's happening and is open to following whatever directions they are given

i just don't think jakob and caroline were playing 5D chess to achieve caroline's goal

[azure bay]

no in that way they are likely to do moves of their own and ruin the plan

[pallid echo]

not if theyre a blank slate

[ivory girder]

also i assume that laura would bring harvey with her in her trip to the lake but we ain't seeing that in the lake so yeah i agree to that

[azure bay]

elaborate please in the context on Paradise

[pallid echo]

well, assuming that jakob was raised his whole life to be completely obedient and ready to do anything, even die, for his family, it makes perfect sense that he'd blindly follow whatever instructions he's given

[azure bay]

he already ran away once

[pallid echo]

he didn't run away, though

his mother sent him away

he was still just following orders

but in that case, they were her orders

[azure bay]

this is time is mostly similar here. He follows his family because Caroline doesn't say otherwise

it's a part of her plan

what's more, he doesn't always follow Nicolas

he risks his life and takes Caroline's cube from him

whether he follows his so-called abusive family or not, Caroline's CS is a bigger authority for him

just like William is for Rose

and William is nobody to her

and didn't suffer from Albert

[pallid echo]

i wouldnt call his family 'so-called' abusive, it's kind of explicit fjghdfkjhgkfj

[azure bay]

no, Elizabeth, Margaret, Nicolas and sometimes even Gerard are supportive when it's not about the last plague

[pallid echo]

even the worst people aren't horrible 100% of the time

it's not a stretch to say exposing your 5-year-old to gore and attempting to murder him isnt a healthy father-son dynamic

[azure bay]

the thing is, they are not even that bad. Only Gerard and David act jerky towards Jacob

[pallid echo]

im pretty sure attempted child murder is bad

[azure bay]

it's in our society

there we're speaking of an isolated cult

[pallid echo]

and performing sacrificial rituals with your kid is also probably bad

well, yes

but isolated groups doing abusive things are still traumatizing

[azure bay]

no doubt

[pallid echo]

regardless of if it's deemed 'normal' or not, there's no question that nicholas and even caroline to some extent aren't the best parents

[azure bay]

What I'm trying to say

Sacrificing his child because of his religion doesn't make Nicolas a 100% bad person

he's misguided

he seeks only good for the rest of his family

[pallid echo]

there's no evidence to say what his motivations are deep down

it's just as likely that he sought to reach enlightenment for selfish reasons

point is, we don't know

[azure bay]

yet there's no evidence of him being cruel to Jacob in any other way

[azure bay]

he always speaks calmly with no intend to suppress his will or dignity

[azure bay]

I see no abuse here, only a father teaching his son what he knows

[pallid echo]

i am not entirely sure what to respond to that

[azure bay]

tell me what you see there

[pallid echo]

a father exposing his child to gore and blood

not to mention the question of where exactly the heart came from, assuming that it's human

[azure bay]

well, in our society that would be bad

let me bring up an analogy

religious terrorists are people too. Their morality is twisted, they do horrible things to others because of their beliefs but at home they still can be nice family men

I see Nicolas like that

[pallid echo]

ar, i feel like we are getting into muddy rules territory

[azure bay]

I'm not going any further

[pallid echo]

i just intrinsically disagree w u sorry

[azure bay]

disagree in what?

[pallid echo]

uhh the. the all of it.

the whole. all of it

[azure bay]

no, please, that's counterproductive. We evoked a ton of topics

my major idea is that Nicolas doesn't have to be mean to his son because of other things we see immoral

and he still can sincerely love him

[pallid echo]

i dont want to discuss this further bc i feel like you

oops

[azure bay]

I don't understand

[pallid echo]

*you're pushing a narrative that is prevalent irl and is really harmful to abuse survivors in general

and i don't want to go deeper into that bc the server has rules for a good reason

and further discussion of this would definitely get into murky territory

also i have a paper due in 30 minutes that i need to work on

[azure bay]

ok, I think I found the wording you may understand

Nicolas is not toxic

that's it

at least he doesn't look toxic

that means that Jacob probably wasn't intended by the authors to feel abused

however

Jacob not being abused in game doesn't mean no one irl is

especially for religious reasons

@pallid echo the author is dead and we readers are the author now

you seeing him abused is a legit interpretation dictated by our time in general and your knowledge and experience in particular

[pallid echo]

im not entirely sure that this is an appropriate topic for this server?

and i wouldnt even agree that it wasn't intended considering the art of his child self is distinctly expressive to be afraid-looking

[azure bay]

because it's your interpretation, you tend to give to his look more importance than I do. It's ok

it's likely your background speaking. A background that may or may not be shared by the author

and once again, that's ok

we can disagree

both between us and with the author

What I propose is trying to step outside that box of interpretation and see the alternative way of thinking without abandoning your own

and avoiding discussion won't help us finding any common ground

[floral mauve]

I knew I am not the only one that feels it’s fucked up with this one

Eilanders is basically a dark version of Encanto

Change my mind

[floral mauve]

I think it’s more than that, for example, can the ritual be performed without 10 plagues? Why can’t Nicolas sacrifice Jakob right away when he was little? What’s the time factor in ritual

[covert wyvern]

Wouldn't encanto be w lighter version of the eilanders

RL was here first

Smh

[floral mauve]

Ooof

[covert wyvern]

Lmao I'm sorry

[floral mauve]

We don’t talk about Jakob

[azure bay]

And the day of the lake, obviously

[floral mauve]

Exactly

Does that mean 10 plagues is the sign of the day of the lake coming?

Just like Christmas?

Cursed Christmas calendar

Everyday is a new plague

[azure bay]

Seasons were switching one another

[pallid echo]

encanto is like, generational trauma affecting someone who wants to protect a whole town, but the eilander parents are only concerned abt themselves/their kids (superficially) for the most part

[azure bay]

Can you please elaborate more? I don't understand yet how it is the answer on why Nicolas needed to wait

[pallid echo]

oh I was replying to something else lol

I accidentally selected the wrong message fjenrndn

[ebon aspen]

Tbh they also want to protect the lake surroundings in some sense
Ok, they were the only ones living by the lake at the time the 10 plagues hit, but if the idea of having a lake cult is confirmed the sacrifices can also protect whoever else is around
Ofc that dont erase the fact the eilanders wanted enlightenment and their own good im first place, but id say in both rl and encanto the families do what they can to protect the place they live (in some sense, if you have a united community, you start acting like its just one big family)

[azure bay]

not directly. The cube are stopping the plagues.

[ebon aspen]

But also tbh comparing rl and encanto all the ways wont let us go much far, since theyre different aftet all

But its a good analogy in some sense

[floral mauve]

well how that makes u think they arent concerned about family?

environment built value

nowhere is right to some extent

because eilanders arent educated or adapted towards our modern society

[pallid echo]

mmm, I suppose, I just think that the care they feel is superficial, at least to some extent. they don't seem to have concern about the emotional states of their kids - honestly if they knew they had to kill a kid to stay living at the lake, why not simply leave? it's complex but we don't rlly know much abt them, tho I do think nicholas is like, a polite jerk- polite and calm on the surface, generally uncaring on the inside
my personal interpretation of the events of paradise was less Nicholas trying to save his family and more him trying to save himself
I feel like that's backed up by how he kills caroline for disobeying the cult

not to mention him lying in order to get jakob back on the island

and also mr deer, his reincarnation, is a huge jerk

[azure bay]

you need to keep in mind when he killed her

[azure bay]

and where does this come from?

[pallid echo]

his vibes are rancid 😔

he's rude to harvey therefore I hate him-

[grim hornet]

sorry its not a theory but yall here are so big brain

like its so cool to read

[covert wyvern]

No matter ones brain size all theories and takes are welcome hwre

Here*

Yknow if they're at least semi serious

But I can imagine it's nice to lurk here too

[grim hornet]

yeye

[azure bay]

at what moment is he rude to Harvey?

[ebon aspen]

ig you can take him (and the other guests too) ordering harvey while being completely lax (ok, hes a servant, but still) as a rude attitude

i dont know how much this affects the lore tho XD i would use only the interactions on paradise to figure out how they acted as a family

[azure bay]

according to this, Grandma is supportive, Elisabeth is chill and friendly, Nicolas is respectful, Gerard is occasionally a jerk and David is a hell psychopath please anyone stop him

[floral mauve]

lmao

[floral mauve]

well, why cant the family in encanto build another mansion, like a normal one, without magics

[cold falcon]

i mean i think they were going to

[floral mauve]

thats after everything happened

I was saying initially

||before bruno left||

but yea whatever

disney is not dark bloody killing RL

perhaps its not a good comparison target

[cold falcon]

i guess they both kinda answer the question "what would you do if your magic came at the expense of others" but in very different contexts

[floral mauve]

indeed

Paradise is a perfect example how value can differ within a isolated family or tribe which itself is a mini society

therefore, the modern ethics are no longer applicable I guess

[quick birch]

questionable

[covert wyvern]

Dunno, but regardless what do we think about the newspaper published during Roots? It definitely hints towards an outside source having access to and reporting on the happenings at the lwke

Lake*

Unless harbeys "messenger of the lake" job included a news paper

[floral mauve]

well as I stated before

it is entirely possible that there is a town near RL

[covert wyvern]

ye completely fair

[floral mauve]

which can explain where Mary Ida and Caroline are from

also, they have some sort of similar red like hair

[covert wyvern]

fair too!

im still very big on the Lake is just an extradimensional area with lots of entrances and exits

I suppose one of them could be near a town that just thinks the lake is part of their natural geography

I dunno

[floral mauve]

well, it seems like some basic information can still go through

like post office perhaps

and newspaper report

[covert wyvern]

right ye, which I suppose would imply the house has an adress?

[floral mauve]

and WW1 recruitment

thats not the right word but I forgot

[covert wyvern]

Conscription?

[floral mauve]

yes

that

[covert wyvern]

ww1 recruitment works just fine though lol

[floral mauve]

I mean I would avoid going into the war if its possible, perhaps the war propaganda also sent to the mansion?

this country needs u!!!

[covert wyvern]

ye it could've definitely been a volunteering job on the Vanderbooms side.

[floral mauve]

that also suggests ppl in the mansion do know what is going on in the world

so I guess mansion does have an address

[covert wyvern]

right ye. which i suppose would imply it's rooted in reality permanently, somewhere.

but I guess realistically if there's an entry way to the lake in an unnamed village the villagers could just simply think the lake is part of their town / county even when in reality is an extradimensional bubble

its like in minecraft the nether is an alternate dimension but you often use it to create a highway between places

you incorporate the outer worlds into your home one.

[floral mauve]

I am also surprised that Rusty Lake devs didnt try to add telegraphy into the game

[covert wyvern]

to be fair though im genuinely hopping through a LOt of hoops, I just replayed roots yesterday and the newspaper really caught my attention

[floral mauve]

rather than base everything on newspaper or letters

but if we use that as the context

[covert wyvern]

I mean there's a phone in the mill right? which would imply there's some sort of phoneline present.

[floral mauve]

it means back then it is still an information bubble, which means information delay

[floral mauve]

indeeeed

I guess Mr Owl is an electrician as well

and security camera?

tv in mill looks like security cameras to me xd

[covert wyvern]

ye Im unsure whats up with the TV, lmao

its almost like a teleportation box

[floral mauve]

its all magic

real word stuff no longer applicable

tbh

Rusty lake gives me the vibe of The lost horizon

it is actually very similar compare to RL

both are about prolonged life

inside a natural habitat or something

[covert wyvern]

ive never heard of it, but fair!

[floral mauve]

its an old novel

published in 1933

I do recommend but thats slightly away from theories

do u think I could ask noflavor whether RL is somehow related to it or no

[covert wyvern]

I think we do have an answer to that somewhat; twin peaks is the biggest inspirational factor right, but I wouldnt b surrpised if the devs used some books theyve read as inspo either.

[floral mauve]

I know twin peak is definitely in it

[white tiger]

Is mr crow the gandpa from birthday?

[azure bay]

Long story short, either yes or pretends to be such or just an asset reuse.

[floral mauve]

thats hella short

[white tiger]

What are all the other corrupted souls

I only know why william is one

[floral mauve]

wdym by other

[white tiger]

Theres more

Wondering the lake

[floral mauve]

have u played all games

[white tiger]

Yes

I think i understand white doors one

[floral mauve]

I guess hotel is somehow straightforward

[white tiger]

But they take animal forms

[floral mauve]

you kill animal looking ppl

they die

they are corrupted

[white tiger]

And its the memories that becomes the corrupted souls

If i remember right

Whatabout the wonderers though

Are they bodies without memories

Or bad memories without bodies

[floral mauve]

thats what it seems like indeed

walking corrupted memories

aggressive

[white tiger]

Cause windmill one its sarahs body without memories

[floral mauve]

not sarah

bruh

[white tiger]

Oh crap. It was years ago dont blame me

Oh right someone died

[floral mauve]

thats what cube escape serie about

[white tiger]

Mr crow extracted good and bad memories

[floral mauve]

someone died

[floral mauve]

yes

[white tiger]

Man i need to replay the games and get a lore video

[floral mauve]

I think play all games again and then you can try to think independently

[white tiger]

Also is that old women aldous wife?

[floral mauve]

lore videos are more focusing on details

[white tiger]

From windmill

[covert wyvern]

I personally wouldn't really rely on lore videos, but replayings always a good idea 😉

[floral mauve]

it seems like it

[white tiger]

Vandabooms really are weird

[floral mauve]

not all of them

only one branch is kinda supernatural

[white tiger]

Leonard most normal one and his dad

[floral mauve]

yea

[white tiger]

One got pregnant off flowers. The other one used questionable methods

[floral mauve]

jar

[white tiger]

Lab baby

[floral mauve]

I think test tube baby perhaps is a better way of addressing it

or her

[white tiger]

Im still curious how that ass got her egg

[floral mauve]

we dont talk about that

[white tiger]

[azure bay]

it's confirmed

[floral mauve]

then it is

wait

is it confirmed during q and a

[azure bay]

no

[floral mauve]

then wdym

[azure bay]

The synopsis

after CEC update

[floral mauve]

oh

where

I dont remember

could u find it

[azure bay]

I saw it on instagram

I bet it's the same at app store and play market

[floral mauve]

where is the synopsis of mill

[azure bay]

I already answered it

insta and likely in mobile gaming stores

[floral mauve]

oh

you mean the instagram post?

[floral mauve]

I think I saw the confirmation of it when The Mill came out

[azure bay]

you mean its update?

[floral mauve]

no

wait

let me check

its been half a year since I saw it

I dont remember where did I see it

[floral mauve]

Do you think Aldous wants to revive William or no

[covert wyvern]

im actually very unsure.

[floral mauve]

According to Roots, he wants, but according to the following up events of Laura, he doesnt

was William a part of the golden cube plan at the beginning?

[covert wyvern]

Tbh at the very end of roots I feel like he may have been scheming w/ Mr owl

[floral mauve]

imagine generations of suffering

[covert wyvern]

(I meant the bonus level?)

[floral mauve]

all for Dale

[covert wyvern]

like he doesnt seem bothered by WIlliam dying

but that could either be because he knows he can be reborn

[floral mauve]

yea but no one knows who will die at the end

[covert wyvern]

or he genuinely doesnt care for him

Right yes

That is very true

[floral mauve]

we actually dont know since in RL narration style, we dont see emotions of the characters, they are usually in one fixed face mostly

we only know their emotion by their clear facial expression such as smiling or crying etc

[covert wyvern]

ye maybe its just me interpretating things the wrong way

felt like it was worth bringing up though since u asked lmao

[floral mauve]

and the Crow head is even making it harder to interpret the emotion

[floral mauve]

but tbh

I do feel the same

but according to the following actions in roots, he did put effort in reviving

there is one theory I read a long time ago that

Aldous was busy with other things related to hotel or Owl so he didnt know who William reincarnated as

[covert wyvern]

ye totally like he sure did keep an eye on his brother during generational trauma to make sure everything happened okay

[floral mauve]

he doesnt know Laura or the woman is William

but that has little evidence

the reason why I still remember this theory is that, in the Mill, Laura is still referred as The woman

but to be fair. it will be really fucked up to say, I will deliver the corpse of your reincarnated brother

[covert wyvern]

mhm

I mean the mill was released before Roots, im assuming they wanted to hold off the laura reveal till then?

[floral mauve]

let me look up

thats true I believe

where did we first see the name of Laura

we know her by The woman for the first couple of games

[ivory girder]

actually, i remember having read someone somewhere said that if u made the elixir and u drank it, you died. in roots as we saw, william and james both made the elixir and when both drank it, they died but aldous and the dog who weren't involved in making the elixir drank it and was still alive after that

[ivory girder]

cave

[floral mauve]

then thats really fucked up

[ivory girder]

yeah crow planned the whole thing

[floral mauve]

Wait

how do we know William made the elixir

the basement is just a minigame

[covert wyvern]

becasue we're in control of william the entire game

including the bonus level?

lmao

[floral mauve]

emmmm

I believe elixir making process is not really like that

[ivory girder]

wasn't there a page in the book in cave said that william is the last person who made the elixir or something

[covert wyvern]

oo so you mean to say that the elixir making minigame is more game than actual stories

[ivory girder]

crow also said before william made the elixir "brother go find the elixir" right

but yeah it can be the minigame being different that what was actually going on

[floral mauve]

yep

I won’t trust much about William making elixir independently

But I believe the seed part and drinking part is true

[azure bay]

I would say more. Most of the levels would probably look the same without William's interference

[azure bay]

William is called the last creator in The Cave and Crow is unable to recreate it

[covert wyvern]

is that why they want William back? purely so they can recreate the elixir?

[azure bay]

not sure. They already had means to recreate it. They just seem lost after James' unfortunate success

however "the fate of RL lies in this small seed" confuses me

[floral mauve]

is that so

[azure bay]

the former part definitely, the latter I deduce from their shitty extract

[ebon aspen]

@cunning void he was accused bc he was the closest person to her (moving the convo to here bc its going off topic on #🩸｜general-chat )

[floral mauve]

ah here we go

Laura's death

We have many options

now the most likely one seems to be either Laura herself or Laura affected by CS

[real lantern]

Oh shoot yeah, lets take it here lol

[cunning void]

In case 23 bob turn into a corrupted soul, remember?

[floral mauve]

Yes

That’s after the death of Laura

Cause and consequences

Not vice versa

[real lantern]

And they normaly question people close to whoever dies just to get more information, not necessarily because they think they’re guilty

[floral mauve]

Yea

But no

I think the book false accusation is pretty clear

Bob was accused of Murdering or something

[cunning void]

Yes

[floral mauve]

I mean back then it is quite common to frame ppl

An unemployed middle age man who got broke up with the woman

We can see where this is going

If we are prejudiced

And stereotype

[real lantern]

Yes, but it would still make sense to question him even if he wasnt accused, think about it, recently broken up, dude clearly not taking it well, only a madman would not consider him suspicious

[cunning void]

The cop said “what did you did to her?” Sorry if have any mistake

[ebon aspen]

yk, ppl turn into suspects without doing anything sometimes

[floral mauve]

That’s what I am saying

Phd u got this

[ebon aspen]

doing the worst analogy ever, bob was that cyan crewmate
bad place and bad time

[real lantern]

Yes, but thats not saying he was framed

Its just that he was awfully suspicious but probably had some hella good alibi and didnt go to jail

[floral mauve]

Bad wording

My fault

Anyway I am gonna sleep now, I wish this convo took place 4 hours earlier 😪

It’s 4am almost

[cunning void]

Omg

Here is 10 pm

[floral mauve]

If you have anymore queries Parrot and phd are super nice and big brain theorists as well

Feel free to ask anything in RL universe🥱

[cunning void]

Good night

[cunning void]

He said “what did you do, for that poor lady?”

Then he said “what is wrong with you?”

[real lantern]

Oh i am the farthest thing from a rl theorist LMAO, its been way too long since i last put a lot of brain power on this

[cunning void]

And then

Robert turned into a corrupted soul

And killed the cop

[real lantern]

Yes, but he could be just working out of an assumption he believed was true

[cunning void]

Dale said “i need you memory” and broke the glass

[real lantern]

It probably wasnt dale who broke the glass, but, the “i need your memory” part could be just him saying in other words that he needs to know if robert did actualy kill laura

[cunning void]

The corrupted soul broke the glass

[ebon aspen]

so, lets do a little timeline to clarify some stuff
-laura breaks up with bob and goes to the cabin on the lake; meanwhile bob plays the depressed ex-bf role in his house
-laura is killed in mysterious circumstances in the lake. major suspects being herself (as seen in seasons and c23), a random corrupted soul (as seen in ce: the lake) or dale (in one of the timelines from paradox)
-bob learns about laura's death, and is visited by sarah, who gives the condolences and invites him to join twd for psychological treatment
-dale investigates the death, and the main suspect is bob, prolly bc he was her ex and yk, passionate crimes are always a possibility
-robert is brought to the police station to be interrogated, but ends up getting corrupted bc of his memories, killing the cop in the process and coincidentally aiding dale to gather a black cube of his
-bob goes to twd, while dale gets caught in the bird ppl's quest for finding enlightenment and a ruler of the lake

[manic brook]

I thought laura died at home

?

i guess for timeline it doesnt particularly matter

[ebon aspen]

laura is shown dead at her home, in the lake and in the cabin
but in those 3 cases, bob was nowhere to be seen

as phd said before, bob loved laura too much to take those measures, he understood why she broke up with him and got sad, but never shown any sign of intent to kill her

[manic brook]

☝️

[cunning void]

Maybe, not Robert killed Laura, but that corrupted soul that he turns into

But idk

Everything you said make sense

[manic brook]

But what does it mean in paradox? I always felt that dale was insinuated to be the corrupted soul himself but i could be misinterpreting

[real lantern]

He’s not the corrupted soul that killed the cop in case 23 chapter 2, thats robert,

[ebon aspen]

i think ryeleff meant the one shown in the lake

[cunning void]

So who is that corrupted soul?

[ebon aspen]

but the way the murders happen are also different, so i doubt theyre the same

[real lantern]

Which one? The one in case 23? Thats robert

[ebon aspen]

my guess is that at that point the devs didnt had the plot of dale killing her, the lake was the 2nd rl game iirc

but considering all the games in which we play as laura are a crazy trip into her memories, it wouldnt be crazy to assume those were her way to see what happened

(she was stated to have psychological disturbs, so who knows how distant from reality were the things she saw)

i tend to pick the scenes from paradox as the true ones, but since we dont know how damaged is dale's brain(s), ig nobody actually know what happened for sure

[manic brook]

it does make sense that going through an experience where you remove your brain, or feel like you did, you wouldnt think too hard about seeing yourself as the killer in the case youre obsessed with

[cunning void]

And the corrupted soul from the theatre?

[real lantern]

Well, considering that theatre passes on dale’s mind i have to say that its his own corrupted soul

[manic brook]

could be roberts first appearance. I mean he did bloody mary himself then

can people switch back and forth?

[ebon aspen]

theatre cs was prolly bob's, it would make sense since dale saw it at the police station

the poses were even the same

[real lantern]

It would be kinda weird tho, to have his corrupted soul in the bathroom and then himself just 6 meter away

[manic brook]

whos?

[real lantern]

Bob’s

[manic brook]

thanks

I am confused about what you mean by it being in the bathroom

[real lantern]

I think that we’re talking about the same corrupted soul right? The one that shows up in thr bathroom in CE theatre?

[cunning void]

Yeah

[manic brook]

hmm maybe i need to replay theatre bc i am still confused lol

[real lantern]

Where do you remember the corrupted soul to be? Lol

[manic brook]

I remember it as dale in the mirror and then at the very end as dale gets in the elevator

[real lantern]

Oh, i think you’re thinking of case 23?

Oh wait no, im thinking of a different moment

[cunning void]

There were 3

One in the mirror, one in the toilet and the last one in the curtains in the end of the game

[real lantern]

Yeah, theres two corrupted souls in that game, the one that shows up in the mirror is dale’s then, after a while, bob goes to the bathroom and turns into a corrupted soul, which then walks towards you when you get to the elevator

[manic brook]

yeah i think i definitely forgot the bathroom one thts all

[cunning void]

Agh

This game is so complicated

I need to sleep

Good night guys

[upbeat scarab]

I’m about to do a Bob right now
goes to mental hospital called the white door

[azure bay]

The Cave clearly shown where Laura died.

[floral mauve]

I think parrot meant where Laura has appeared as in corpses form

[azure bay]

what is corpses form?

[floral mauve]

Dead

Without Laura’s living personality

[azure bay]

you could simply say just that and no confusion would arise

[floral mauve]

Well I found the word dead hard to define in RL

CS is not dead tbh

[azure bay]

you can say dead and say CS to distinguish those states

Anyways

Bob could be involved only in her death in Seasons

in The Lake it could be his CS but it comes out of nowhere especially after his book

[azure bay]

By the way

I was looking at the blueprint in Seasons

there is a cube, an egg, a phone and a shrimp on it

I wonder what that would mean

[floral mauve]

rusty lake hotel

[azure bay]

phlogiston

[half elm]

I kinda have questions? Or maybe it's observations I made? Not sure 😭

It's about the Lady of the Lake;

We know Caroline has been depicted as the lady, but there's been other things that hint at other characters having this title too (ex. Laura having a steam card called "Lady of the Lake" and Ms. Phesant having a strong resemblance to the Lady in Blue, while also being implied to be Elizabeth)

It makes me wonder if the woman who is the most connected to the Lake has this title? Is this the same as being the "ruler" of it?

[floral mauve]

I doubt

I believe in terms of status

its caroline

[azure bay]

can you show me the steam card?

[half elm]

Of course

[floral mauve]

interesting

[half elm]

It is a screenshot taking from the theatre segment in TWD

[floral mauve]

indeed

[half elm]

But why zoom in on Laura?

[azure bay]

well, technically, you are right about Laura being the lady of the lake but I think it's for a wrong reason (I guess?)

the thing is, TWD cards are named after the respective dream titles. Focus on Laura could be accidental

[floral mauve]

from what we know caroline as the lady of the lake is in terms of the former ruler (?) of the lake. Ms Pheasant/Elizabeth is mainly in term of theatre. And Laura, I guess it has something to do with Dale, she belongs to the lake

the laura one is confusing indeed

[azure bay]

that's why I wouldn't guess for now why she is such

@half elm but the devs have confirmed her status

either way, you have a nice point

[half elm]

Right, right

[azure bay]

and a good eye

[floral mauve]

an interesting way of reading this

Laura was born of the lake

she is the "lady" of the lake

like legit

[half elm]

I forgot to add something: during Rusty Lake Hotel in Ms. Pheasant's room I made another observation while replaying it yesterday
When you take her photographs, she will look identical to Mr. Crow and Mr. Owl, but when taking her photograph of her dressed as the Lady of the Lake...she's just a skeleton of herself

[floral mauve]

I dont think you can differentiate tree and lake

[azure bay]

conclusions?

[floral mauve]

and the Mr Crow photo is displayed in theatre

so that photo was Mr Crow afterall xd

[azure bay]

the tree came from William and withered after the ritual. I see no direct connection to the lake

[floral mauve]

remember the last scene?

Rose was in water

[half elm]

Honestly I'm not sure if it means something? But it is interesting why they choose to depict her like that

[azure bay]

that doesn't necessarily mean that the roots teleported them there

[floral mauve]

well that does make a difference

a tree grows next to the lake

rusty lake

[azure bay]

nah, it's far enough

[floral mauve]

I believe lake has its influence at its surrounding area

bruh

RL geography

[azure bay]

we don't know what's the influence

[half elm]

But yeah, there's so many questions surronding the Eilanders, hotel guests and just...the place in general 😭 I hope we get more games to expand onto this soon

[azure bay]

I'm sure we are already able to answer some questions

[azure bay]

what are yours?

[half elm]

Some things are probably hidden in plain sight, yeah
But I'd love more - I think the Eilanders / hotel guests are a cool bunch

I'm happy we get to see more of Albert and Rose though

[azure bay]

but can you formulate your questions concerning Eilanders?

[half elm]

Ohhh, there's a lot I have

If the rest of the Eilander family are the hotel guests, how did the transformation happen? Was it the ritual?
What were their intentions of going to the hotel? They do seem kinda aware of what's going on (or are they??) - but then some also have strange things in their room (ex. layout of the hotel, a trapped bird, etc.)
Just the whole corruption thing and "balance the substances of your past life" - I mean, I kind of get it with Mr. Rabbit, but it's not 100% clear to me
What exactly is "enlightenment"?

Just a few ^^

[floral mauve]

exam time

[half elm]

Also, the deer imagery and the deer skull 😭

[floral mauve]

I can probably answer (according to what we previously discussed here, not official answer) 90% of it but tell me what do you think

[half elm]

It's something nobody can't answer really as there is no confirmation it's true or not,
but I wonder if the Eilanders, Vanderbooms and Dale are connected in a way other than just "accidentally stumbling upon Caroline's elixir" and "just happening to be involved randomly"

[floral mauve]

they are connected in a way

yes

you got it

[half elm]

but how

[floral mauve]

have u discovered the easter egg in paradise?

[half elm]

yes but which one

[floral mauve]

harvey

[half elm]

ohhhh

but that kind of just adds more questions. who is harvey???

harvey is god /hj

[floral mauve]

from last summer Q&A, devs say Harvey is an ancient being

[half elm]

OHHH wait where can I find the Q&As?? that's really interesting

[floral mauve]

they are not recorded sadly

but some ppl did gather it

like nowhere

[half elm]

aw that sucks

but it makes sense

[floral mauve]

dont worry. u didnt lose much

devs didnt say much about in game lores

[azure bay]

(I'm waiting to start answering the questions. When you are ready)

[half elm]

i'm here and ready

[azure bay]

stray has things to say

[floral mauve]

I thought we should let he/she/they think what is going on

rather than just provide all answers

but I dont mind

[azure bay]

agree

[floral mauve]

since our answers may affect what you think

it may spoil it

[half elm]

oh god like?? i'm not sure, my first thought it was some kind of revenge from Mr. Owl, but that was my first thought when I realized Paradise was the hotel

[floral mauve]

hote was paradise

built on

[half elm]

yepyep

[floral mauve]

what do you think about the hotel ending

also

here we go again

[half elm]

hmmmm

[floral mauve]

nowhere's map

it helps

a lot

so far the best theory related content I have seen

[half elm]

oh god that's one complex map

but yeah, the hotel guests were murdered and black cubes were extracted from them - which lead to their corruption

but then they escaped

[floral mauve]

emmmm

thats the surface of the ending

what did Owl do

to Harvey

in the end

of hotel

[half elm]

OH YEAH

[floral mauve]

atm we dont care about the surroundings, we care about the result

whats the result of murdering the guests

[half elm]

from what we saw we dale something with getting rid of corrupted souls?

[floral mauve]

in the end of the hotel

[half elm]

harvey did also turn into a bird

[floral mauve]

thats way after

a few years after

actually

1

oops

[floral mauve]

which is

prophecy

wait

[half elm]

ooooooooooo

[floral mauve]

no

we saw dale in elevator

by the end of hotel

[half elm]

yes we did i remember that

[floral mauve]

so

[half elm]

the same elevator he used to change his memories

[floral mauve]

it can be concluded that all murdering in hotel

is to see the future

in the giant white cube like thing

[half elm]

ohhhhhhhhhhh

[azure bay]

it's not that big if you speak of a cube in Hotel

[floral mauve]

my bad

its like bigger than regular ones that can be hold in hand (not comparing with the one at the bottom of the lake)

[azure bay]

I think it's rather an illusion

it changes size depending on perspective

ok

here I come in

or...

[half elm]

yesyes

[floral mauve]

yea, go on

[half elm]

please do

[floral mauve]

I am eating

you take over

[azure bay]

@half elm first tell me what you think about Eilanders' ritual

[half elm]

i understand a lot of the story and symbolism, but this is what kind of confuses me

i 100% got that it caused caroline and jakob to become mr. owl in some way?

they say stuff like "Paradise will rise again" and sentences w/ a similar meaning

which kind of implies that sacrifice is what is needed for it and the lake

also, giving Caroline the owl mask shows us Dale and Laura

over one century before they were even born

[azure bay]

conclusions about this one?

[half elm]

It's their destiny to become...whatever they will become together

• The painting of Rose w/ Laura in the Theatre as the sanskrit for "God"

Also, Mr. Crow and Mr. Owl seemingly holding on to life, despite having the elixir and relying on the extract from their dog
Having limited time, they want Dale and Laura to be the successor??

[azure bay]

so

there were 2 rituals performed in Paradise

Caroline created the elixir but was saving it for Jacob

so the rest of the family had to sacrifice him to get enlightenment

As I understand it, it's a rebirth in a higher form

[azure bay]

"please, take our sacrifice and enlighten us"

so basically it's the lake that likely accepted the firstborn sacrifice on a special day

[half elm]

OH I FORGOT HE SAID THAT

That's kinda what I gathered too - reaching a higher consciousness

[azure bay]

Jacob died but Caroline caught his soul and performed another ritual

this one with the elixir

somehow she extracted its elements from her memories and made them fuse together

[floral mauve]

oh thats the other part

higher consciousness is for next stage

[half elm]

yes I did remember Caroline saying the "memories are the key to your future"

[floral mauve]

asura or animal head dont require higher consciousness I believe

[azure bay]

let's share it bit by bit, shall we?

[floral mauve]

yea

sorry

[azure bay]

good memory actually

[half elm]

oh yes I did speedrun some of it today to get some missing achievements (most of them were just symbols I missed)

[azure bay]

speaking of elixir, it also requires a sacrifice. "one will die to enlighten the other"

since that and because in Paradox Mr. Owl doesn't identify himself as Caroline in any way, Caroline was sacrificed. Probably just absorbed

[half elm]

of course - it happened to the dog. who i am also curious about. he doesn't seem to be decaying like Mr. Crow and Mr. Owl... and it's also kind of implied that an animal form is much more "better" (not sure if it's the right word) as they get transformed into their hybrid forms by drinking the elixir. It makes me wonder if the elixir is more complete for the animals, explaning why Harvey has been alive for centuries

Yeah, yeah that makes sense

[azure bay]

I think the dog actually is. But that's the topic for later

[floral mauve]

oh no

[half elm]

HE IS?

[floral mauve]

you are dragging the topic into so many rabbit holes

it also seems like u dont know much about samsara

[azure bay]

for now, I return to the guests.

[floral mauve]

I suggest after elixir

[half elm]

i like to do that yeah 😭

[floral mauve]

go through samsara wheels

too many topics omg

[azure bay]

I'm almost sure that they have no past life memory

[floral mauve]

probably gonna spend hours

[azure bay]

That's why they were easy to lure

[half elm]

That definitely makes sense yeah

[azure bay]

Apparently Rabbit has some memories but I'll speak of him in a moment

the thing is, I don't think Owl extracted their black cubes

they were technically in them at the time

they WERE them from a certain pov

There are more ways to corrupt

I tend to think they all can be reduced to negative experience

extremely negative experience

[half elm]

Ohhhh I see

[azure bay]

now the rabbit

[half elm]

Also yeah, I was planning on going through Samsara room, other places where Samsara + rebirth is mentioned, and the real life Samsara in religion... I just got interrupted in the past week due to a surgery when I was gonna do it

[half elm]

I am very interested in him yes

[azure bay]

It doesn't look like that but I interpret some clues as he was still a kind of CS in Birthday

[floral mauve]

you dont need samsara room to understand samsara, its in theatre mostly

samsara room is just an experience of someone (not to spoil) in samsara

[half elm]

I heard somewhere his white form is just him wearing a mask...which made me think he is a corrupted soul, but just dressed up?

[half elm]

yep that's was my 2nd game I planned to go through - for samsara room, I'm just interested in the actual progress and it's details

[floral mauve]

nowhere is gonna be pissed

he always say its design only

[azure bay]

the mask is debatable and CS don't usually wear cloths. But yeah

[half elm]

yeah that made me confused because... we have never seen them in clothing? also Mr. Rabbit does have a "regular" corrupted form in birthday

[floral mauve]

I think its time

to introduce u samsara

wheel

6 stages

[azure bay]

wait

[floral mauve]

k

[azure bay]

please

Can't say for sure why he needed to kill but he came for the pistol from his past life. I think he's a traveler like Laura and Dale

I guess, during his journey he regained his memories about being David

I assume they were always deep inside him

[half elm]

I can see that

[azure bay]

Like Laura having elixir memories of William

[half elm]

Like the egg in seasons?

[azure bay]

don't get you

[half elm]

In a scene where you crack the egg in Seasons (Spring I believe?) the screen shakes and moths come flying out, with scary music in the background

I think the a similar egg was used in the making of the elixir, that killed William?

[floral mauve]

emmmm

I feel like there are misunderstandings

[half elm]

I always saw it as some kind of weird deja vu? But I might be wrong?

[floral mauve]

this thing is very typical in early RL games

but yea

I dont get you neither

sorry

[half elm]

It's kinda hard to differentiate what's an illusion/aesthetic and what's not but yeah

[azure bay]

1. I don't take the secret Roots level in any way but a big reference to the Alchemy game
2. The egg there was a crow egg

[azure bay]

I think the egg in Seasons is real. It's just bad for some reason

that was the starting point of her mental issues

[half elm]

That's kinda what I meant too! But, also I connected it to somewhat her past life

Seeing the egg worsened her mental health

[azure bay]

I don't think the elixir would do that to her

[half elm]

The crow egg is a reoccuring object in the games, and especially with Harvey / Mr. Crow / Laura

[azure bay]

or you mean something different?

[half elm]

Maybe? I just kinda got the vibe the memories of the egg: (reminding her of a past life of making the elixir, Harvey and Mr. Crow, her brother) kinda just...worsened her mental health?

The moths are from what I've seen, an indication of bad memories and corruption (in TWD's secret level, you use the light to shine away them)

It coming out of the egg could just be an aesthethic choice for a jumpscare moment butttt

Could also be a substance of her past life that pushed her over the edge

[azure bay]

well

people do usually blame William for Laura's state

but rebirth isn't usually a big deal

so I'm not too sure about this statement

[half elm]

I believe there are a lot of factors for Laura's bad mental health, one of them being reincarnation maybe, butttt I don't think Laura was that aware

[azure bay]

I tend to blame the egg since it's called bad in Theatre

[half elm]

Maybe just flashes of deja vu, like the egg - but not really a "oh this egg was in the thing that killed me in my past life" more like just a really bad feeling. It's kind of hard to explain, but if you're dealing with bad mental health ... things like that can you feel worse

I personally think Laura is how she is...because of how she grew up

[azure bay]

I think the egg is generally bad. With or without Laura

[half elm]

She was literally raised by a single mom whose dad artifically created her, then got murdered by her cousin as a teen + having to help William from a really young age. Even if Rose was nice to Laura, I think her trauma kinda rubbed off on her

I believe so too yeah

[azure bay]

I don't think it's a big deal for a CS

being a CS, according to samsara, is painful on its own. But it's not that rare to be a CS in a past life

[half elm]

I kind of meant Laura's "regular life" where she went through a bad mental health period, broke up with her boyfriend, went to Rusty Lake, took her own life and eventually became corrupted. Bob in TWD describes his corruption as "losing his mind" - which can be literal, but yeah, it is like the breaking point of one's mental state from what I've understood

[azure bay]

don't get how it's related to William or the egg