🤔｜theories

[floral mauve]

actually I am not even sure if the lake is 100% water

in the Cave, after submarine broke down

did Mr Crow wore a suit

[astral frost]

50% water/50% rust

[floral mauve]

BRUH

[royal notch]

If you look closely, every time we have a blue cube, we have a time in it!

[floral mauve]

in seasons no

[royal notch]

Yes.

[floral mauve]

you can go back in 4 different time

thats why its misleading

[astral frost]

In seasons it's just a special object which sends you to other black cubes

So the past is contained in the black ones

[royal notch]

OK, let me explain.

I'm not saying that blue cubes are only cubes, i also agree that those cubes are able to send you back in time.

Like in seasons or Birthday.

[floral mauve]

whether or not its kinda delusional

neither case changed the result

Laura and Vandermeer family are still dead

[royal notch]

Yes.

It's only a revisit.

[floral mauve]

(However, it might split to another timeline)

BUT the current timeline didnt change

so blue cubes or the time travel thing didnt affect the main structure of RL

[royal notch]

What i was trying to say is that everytime we have a blue cube we have the time It Remember.

In seasons, in Birthday and in Cave. The fact that scared me Is, the time remembered in Cave Is in Laura's house.

[floral mauve]

I dont understand

could you explain

[royal notch]

What haven't you understand?

[astral frost]

Yes yes I understood, but we must say that you can change an event in your past only with 2 conditions: you need a memory about it, and you need the blue cube (assuming that it's the only existent one)

[floral mauve]

cave and seasons time

[floral mauve]

In what condition or how you use the blue cube

with heat and clock?

[royal notch]

I think that blue cubes are bad memories (like black ones), but with a precise time reference in it.

[astral frost]

So which would be the role of black cubes?

Aren't they bad memories?

[royal notch]

Yes. But are they able to send you back to that memory??

No.

[astral frost]

Ok ok I got it now

[royal notch]

That's the advantage of the blue cubes.

[astral frost]

In that case, many blue cubes would exist

Everyone could have at least one of them

[royal notch]

First, you should tell me what do you think the cubes in seasons represent.

[royal notch]

I don't exclude that.

[astral frost]

Dale used a blue cube too

And it was about his 9th birthday

And the one we see in Cave is Laura's one

The same one she uses in seasons

[royal notch]

I don't think that. The book in the cave doesn't link It with her.

So i think is someone else's. But i don't know who.

[astral frost]

So why should it represent Laura's room?

(Harvey?)

[royal notch]

That the mistery i started with.

[real lantern]

When does the cube in cave "represent" lauras room?

[royal notch]

The black and blue ones.

[royal notch]

That would mean that Harvey got an extraction before.

Not impossible, but strange.

[real lantern]

What?

[royal notch]

What about Bob? The White Door happened during summer.

[royal notch]

What "what"? 😅

[astral frost]

He was his girlfriend, so he could have been to her house at least once

[real lantern]

This what😆

[floral mauve]

change the past with questionable validity

[real lantern]

What do the blue cubes have to do with laura

[royal notch]

In the game, you see them.

[floral mauve]

I actually assume Blue cubes are neutral

not bad or good

they are defined by the user

Apparently, most ppl in RL want to go back in time change bad memories

or reverse something

[real lantern]

I dont think the blue cubes actualy change the past, because if so, why does laura build the big machine in seasons, that just doesnt make any sense if she could just use the blue cube

[floral mauve]

thats why its questionable validity

and different timeline

[royal notch]

We never said that blue cubes change the past!

[floral mauve]

but devs never show the other timeline splits

[floral mauve]

Bruh, but in game they always say that with the blue cubes

in Birthday and seasons

[real lantern]

5 different people said the blue cubes change the past atleast 5 times just today lmao

[royal notch]

You can go back in that time, but not changing It REALLY. It happens only in your head.

[real lantern]

Thats what i think

[floral mauve]

maybe, but Laura may survive in a different timeline

like the main timeline is just continue with the death of Laura

[royal notch]

Even Dale's parents, then.

[floral mauve]

exactly

[real lantern]

But the other timelines dont matter, because they never happened

[floral mauve]

different timelines are multiverse bascially

[floral mauve]

with blue cubes everything is possible

[real lantern]

It doesnt matter that in dale's brain his parents were never killed in his 9th birthday, because in the real world they are still dead

[royal notch]

Exactly.

[floral mauve]

but Laura is different

if you think about it

[real lantern]

Why?

[floral mauve]

she maybe escaped her CS form and avoid her death in another timeline

[real lantern]

Ok, and why is that any different from dale's case?

[floral mauve]

Dale is still alive

and he used the blue cube in a biased memory

[real lantern]

Its still just a memory that changed, the different timeline that exists doesnt matter, because she is still dead

[floral mauve]

the current timeline she is still dead

not gonna deny that

just like paradox

you always make choices

and timelines

[real lantern]

But... and think about this with me. She's still dead, in her head she might not have killed herself or whatever, but the timeline in her head still doesnt matter, because its all in her head.

[royal notch]

I don't know if this happens in her head, or in real life in another timeline, but yes, anyway It doesn't matter.

[azure bay]

There is no evidence of memory changes not affecting reality

[real lantern]

Well... theres also no evidence of memory changes affecting reality lmao

[azure bay]

What about "the past is not past", "all that you touch you change" & notes that directly ask you to change the past?

The Lake game encouraging you to change your fate?

What about Birthday synopsis that asks you to prevent the massacre?

Possibility of time traveling & affecting reality through memories seems fresh & unique for me

Why would you make anticlimactic presumptions instead of accepting this concept?

[cerulean crypt]

Just a random thought

What if Bob really was killed in theatre but Mr.Crow revived him

[azure bay]

why wouldn't they revive Laura?

or William?

[cerulean crypt]

I have no idea

[azure bay]

or Harvey after Hotel?

[cerulean crypt]

But they did

[azure bay]

that was rebirth

new body

new samsara form

reviving requires more effort

if it's even possible in the 1st place

many want Seasons & Birthday being delusional

with no one actually being saved

[cerulean crypt]

So Bob just didn't die

[azure bay]

likely so

[nocturne yarrow]

I'm not necessarily agreeing with Jjeremiasz' idea here, but both those deaths were potentially advantageous for Owl and Crow. It seems like they arranged Laura's death for the sake of extracting memories. Also, mr. Crow had only just become immortal when William died, and as such may not have had the knowledge necessary to revive him.

[azure bay]

1. Extracting memories from CS is a thing. So why would Crow bother himself with helping William to be reborn as Laura if memories could be extracted right away?

2. How would the second death benefit them?

[obsidian moth]

So guys this will sound dumb but is there a possibility elizabeth being mother of aldous and william? because time matches and we see a corrupted soul with a beak in roots and we know it can not be mr crow’s because length doesnt match. It is not william’s either. But its length matches with mrs pheasant’s beak and in paradise we gave the pheasant mask to elizabeth and so... i mean she might be helping william to be reborn like caroline helped jakob enlighten... idk, just a silly theory.

[azure bay]

I've read an advanced theory of alchemist bros being Elizabeth's sons on reddit

long story short fetus from Pheasant's past life being covered in ink & leaving a heart behind (chapel of Case 23) is her son William being corrupted & sacrificing his old heart for rebirth.

however, the part about her helping William seems not to be the case

I tend to think that it was alchemists' backup plan all along

[floral mauve]

the thing is, are they the sons of Elizabeth or reincarnated Elizabeth, Ms Pheasant

[cerulean crypt]

Anodher random thought

Altar in the lab must be build either by Albert or Adolus

If it was Albert

Didn't he need to have some contact with Mr.Crow?

[ebon aspen]

by the lab you mean the place where albert created rose?

if so, well, that house and surroundings belonged to the brothers, so it wouldnt be a surprise if there were some stuff for alchemy

[cerulean crypt]

That altar where in final level sacriefieces are placed

Somebody must build it

And engrawings or painting on it include:
Crow and the dead man
So alchemist brothers can't make it bedore drinkimf the elixir

[ebon aspen]

oh that altar

well, the secret level shows aldous there, so the brothers clearly knew about that place, the pictures could have been made after aldous became mr crow or there were smth like a prophecy that they were aware of

[ebon aspen]

and this is a very likely thing, considering that aldous was present during roots events, maybe we will see smth about it in tpw

[floral mauve]

Well, I think it is likely that the alchemy brothers knew one of them will die

just unsure who

thats why Mr Crow is so chill

thinking about reviving

Which is the reason why we shouldnt portray Aldous as a selfish person who intensionally killed William or something like that

[cerulean crypt]

But how do they know about crow?

[muted cloak]

#theory That's obvious RL is purgatory place for tormented souls.

[covert wyvern]

see I've pondered the concept of RL being a sort of afterlife

but I think it's unlikely when you consider we see babies being born around the lake

[muted cloak]

But that one in which you reflect on your deeds and prepare for another incarnation

And the babies might be aborted childs

[covert wyvern]

you bring up a valid point, it's likely the entire vanderboom family may just in fact be all dead.

but bob, Laura's partner, doesn't seem to be, so how did they two meet if we consider Laura aborted.

[muted cloak]

I just played Samsara and watched official short film,sorry, I don't know the whole lore...

[covert wyvern]

ahhh

I recommend you play all the other games too! check the titles out in #📚｜resources 😄

[muted cloak]

I will! See you then!

[covert wyvern]

there's a lot more to RL than just Samsara and the short film

[obsidian moth]

Yes

[floral mauve]

idk, maybe thats the Vanderboom belief

One thing I just found out

dont know I am delusional or what

Mr Crow and Mr Owl only have bird head right?

but the guests have a animal body

like they are basically the walking animals

I dont know if I remember it correctly

[cerulean crypt]

So mr.Crow and Mr.Owl are different?

[floral mauve]

I think the only difference between the guests and Mr Crow/Owl is the enlightenment method

the guests enlightened through the sacrifice

whereas Mr Crow and Owl had the Elixir

OH shit

[cerulean crypt]

What

[floral mauve]

maybe the guests arent Asura

they are Animals

[cerulean crypt]

Pigeon with engienner deggre?

[floral mauve]

yes

[cerulean crypt]

So Harvey is also an animal in RL hotel

[floral mauve]

he seems to have hands

[cerulean crypt]

Ohhh... i forgot about it

My bad

[ebon aspen]

So guys, dunno if yall ever talked about it here and i missed the convo, but what about rl version of za hando?
I mean, we see a lot of hands thru the game... are they the same hand, a bunch of different ones...?

Maybe its a very simple thing but just now i remembered to ask lol

[high talon]

the what and the what now?

[ebon aspen]

The hand that pop up a lot of times thru the series

[high talon]

oh

[cerulean crypt]

It looks like it will be many hands... they look diferent thru the series and we "kill" it many times

[azure bay]

My guess: most of these hands belong to the lake

[cerulean crypt]

Lakes has hands

[azure bay]

Lakes have forests

Lakes are hungry for memories

[cerulean crypt]

Forest can be explained by science , i guess

A lake flooded the actual liveing fored

[covert wyvern]

thats actually an interesting take.

not one I see as likely, but an interesting one.

[azure bay]

What about breathable layer at the bottom?

[cerulean crypt]

I have no idea

And what if Monster is humgry for memo?

[azure bay]

There's a ton of crazy things related to the lake. Hands being one of them is not that surprizung

[cerulean crypt]

But they are build from meat

Whose meat

[azure bay]

No evidence. Non a single mention for monster's importance. Plus, Laura's memories were preserved & not consumed by anyone

[azure bay]

I'd analyse all the appearances of these

Some of then are similar

Some are different

[cerulean crypt]

But at least one is from real meat

How lake provided that meat?

Drowned people ?

[azure bay]

I'd say 3

Or 4

[cerulean crypt]

Which one expect the cave one?

[azure bay]

2 in Hotel

[cerulean crypt]

That one in rabbit and pheasant room?

[azure bay]

Yes

The last one is more debatable. The only one confirmed to belong to a drowned, not confirmed to belong to other examples

The Lake

The one in Seasons also looks a lot like the last one

[cerulean crypt]

How it is confinmed to belong to a drowned?

[azure bay]

Well

You catch it & get a whole body

[floral mauve]

Speaking of hands

the one is rabbit room is the same one in roots

where you get the ring

I also heard some ppl saying that the CS in the Lake is Bob

(Sounds romantic been fished by your spouse)

[cerulean crypt]

But bob don't go swim

[floral mauve]

thats why he drown

idk

[cerulean crypt]

Also Laura tells Bob that she goes to cabin

[floral mauve]

yes

Bob is a stalker

[covert wyvern]

its an option,

but I dont know if bob ever enters Rusty Lake?

lmao

[floral mauve]

Its just aguess

[cerulean crypt]

But when laura goes to cabin
Bob probably goes drunk

[floral mauve]

maybe Mr Owl just left Bob there for mental health and fishing

[floral mauve]

Did she specify that in her letter?

I dont remmeber

[royal notch]

Laura had gone in the cabin in the Summer of 1964, and Bob begin being corrupted in 1971. So that's not possible.

[floral mauve]

its just a incomplete theory

so its most likely to be wrong

[cerulean crypt]

Bob just go drink

He lost GF and Job
Lays on sofa and drinks

He hears about Laura suicude

Goes drink to the theatre

Bob has problems with alchohole

[covert wyvern]

yes i agree.

[craggy crescent]

Does anyone have any idea on what time period The Past Within is on

Do we think Albert is alive or are we seeing him as corrupted or as a ghost, looking back at flashbacks

[cerulean crypt]

TPW probably takes place after Albert funeral

[floral mauve]

I wonder how did Rose grow up

did she really live with Albert for that long time

(I dont know how she feels since she apparently got the poker face from her mother)

[azure bay]

I expect her to live with Albert all along

She was at least weird

Then she probably was taking care of Frank for several years

[floral mauve]

yeah digging the grave in the night and play with bones

guess that is a bit fucked up

[azure bay]

I was referring to ouija

[floral mauve]

does that mean even she got poker face, she still cares about others?

[azure bay]

I guess so

[floral mauve]

and she even wants to help William

she is a saint I guess

and she raised up Laura

[azure bay]

It's possible that she dug up just William's grave

[floral mauve]

?

[azure bay]

If the bones that were hiding the timepiece belonged to William there was no need to trouble the others

[floral mauve]

idk how RL works

but sure

maybe its like some sort of witchcraft

teleporting timepiece

after collecting bones

[azure bay]

I personally tend to question what I see in Roots

[floral mauve]

like Albert controlling weather?

I mean roots is quite funny with its puzzle

and unrealistic

[azure bay]

That could be Albert's madness

Or it was all time skips

[royal notch]

Yeah, Rose is really strange. She accepted to help a guy never know without any reason.

[floral mauve]

altruism?

[real lantern]

I think the graveyard puzzle is just to add some fun into the game, i think that rose just dug up williams grave and found the timepiece

Unless william's corrupted soul scattered his bones in many different graves, which doesnt add up, considering rose could have just opened the skeleton's mouth and grabbed the timepiece

[quick birch]

Hey guys

Remember when I questioned about that fisherman?

Im still thinking it

What if its Dale

[high talon]

Doesnt he have a fear of fish?Why would you go fishing if you have a phobia of fish

[covert wyvern]

excellemt observation

do not observe my spelling./

[high talon]

Thank you

[royal notch]

Again, Dale was waiting in the cube under the Lake. It can be him.

[floral mauve]

cant*

[broken rune]

More like we have fear on the fish

[floral mauve]

well according to Mr Crow

he does fear of fish

[quick birch]

Erm

I didn't knew it actually :|

[nocturne yarrow]

It could be an alternate version of him- like the ones seen in the woods in Paradox- who has transcended not only time, but also fear of fish.
Now, the fish fear him.

[high talon]

Hmmm maybe?I dunno

I mean i would like do believe it but neither you nor i have enough evidence to prove (or debunk) that theory, so im gonna leave it at that

[nocturne yarrow]

Aye, there isn't much evidence, this is just speculation. My thinking is just that the fisherman is a central symbol of Rusty Lake, so I could see them revealing that Dale's story ends with him becoming that fisherman while he's the "ruler of the lake".

I just think it would be a nice cap on their main character's story

[azure bay]

Don't confuse fisherman with boatman

I think that's the simplest explanation

[astral frost]

Isn't the man on the boat (in the logo) Aldous?

[azure bay]

at least in Case 23

the fisherman just also looks a lot like that logo

[real lantern]

Yeah, the guy from the logo could be aldous, and the fisherman has to be someone else

[azure bay]

why couldn't they both just be a reference to the logo?

[real lantern]

Im sorry, could you explain that a bit further? haha

[azure bay]

they often make references to their logo:
boatman in Arles, boatman on a spoon in Harvey's box. Why couldn't both Crow & the fisherman also be references just like that? Like there are plenty of people in the world that would share that silhoette

[real lantern]

Oh got it! And you're right, thats probably what it is lmao

[ebon aspen]

Its prolly a very random person that wanted to fish in a new place and came across rusty lake

[cerulean crypt]

And randomly started making his body into letters

[covert wyvern]

stretching exercises

[ebon aspen]

You need to be in good shape to go fishing

[floral mauve]

btw remember there is a CS in the lake when Laura went there

might be the fisherman who just randomly dived down the lake

[nocturne yarrow]

Mr. Owl gave him a fishing permit in exchange for doing random stuff when prompted

[royal notch]

I've always imagined his poses as normal messages, ignoring to be seen.
K= Ehi, family, look what's for dinner!
I= (notices that they haven't seen or heard him)
T= Ehi, i'm here!

[vague imp]

so is paradox meant to represent whats happening in dales mind

[covert wyvern]

Likely, yes.

[vague imp]

with chapter 1 being about case 23 and chapter 2 being personal?

[covert wyvern]

I've not given it that much thought

I live under the impression that the different paradoxes are from dales in different timelines.

[real lantern]

Im realy sad that i never played the part 2 of paradox

[vague imp]

rip

aslo when does it take place?

cause its def happening inside his head

but when

[real lantern]

Oh, nowherecaw is here, lets see the faccs

[covert wyvern]

correction,

no one here speaks facts.

[vague imp]

its just a theory

a rusty lake theory

[covert wyvern]

not even crafter

[vague imp]

whos crafter

[covert wyvern]

an avid theorist.

[vague imp]

oh oki

[real lantern]

yep sorry 😆

[azure bay]

Paradox is a recursion loop. Dale finds a cube, enters it & he starts all over again. He partly remembers previous iterations, partly not. I expect the difference of these levels being due to Dale's different actions & not different layout.

[real lantern]

Im getting punched in the face by autoccorect lmao

[vague imp]

too much words brain too small to understand

[azure bay]

what does confuse you the first?

[vague imp]

eh just big paragraphs make my brain die and fail

[covert wyvern]

that's just the popular (and probably correct) interpretation, I like swaying from the path

anyway lunch time

[vague imp]

yeah me too

[covert wyvern]

y'all better behave while im gone

[vague imp]

yeah id rather you not show up at my door with a hammer

[real lantern]

So its a bit like the end of "the good place"? The people that die get put in a situation that keeps repeating itself, the persons past actions stay in their heads vaguely and they have to repeat that until they do better?

[vague imp]

also for the golden cube

my theory is that it could let you alter the future. not directly but changing up stuff that could lead too a specific future

[azure bay]

Paradox is a recursion loop

[vague imp]

dont know what that is

[azure bay]

do you know what a loop is?

[vague imp]

yeah

[azure bay]

are you familiar to russian dolls?

[vague imp]

no

[azure bay]

Case 23 puzzle for chapter 1

one doll is hidden inside another

[vague imp]

oh yeah that

[azure bay]

that's kind of example of recursion

[vague imp]

i still dont get it

[azure bay]

when something contains itself

[vague imp]

oh

i think i get it

[azure bay]

& this itself contains another self

& so on

[vague imp]

k i think i get it

it makes sense

[azure bay]

if there were infinite dolls that would be a true recursion

[vague imp]

i get it

[azure bay]

just want to be precise

[vague imp]

oki

[azure bay]

so Dale finds a cube inside another cube

[vague imp]

yeah i get it

[azure bay]

& that sets him back

[vague imp]

im trying to think about how blue cubes are made

[azure bay]

no idea here

[vague imp]

i was thinking seasons

because the way you get the cubes there makes sense

with one being harveys egg

and the other 2 be related too the lake

but the blue cube

is just in the clock

[real lantern]

I've heard some people say that they are just old memories that "oxidized" in the lake

[vague imp]

that doesnt make that much sense

they seemignly only existed within memories until cave

[azure bay]

tons of things we witness don't :з

[real lantern]

I mean, isnt the clock related to rusty lake? Its been with the vanderbooms for generations lmao

[vague imp]

yeah lmao

[azure bay]

I expect seeing several clocks

[vague imp]

the clock is usually linked too them

i dont think its the exact same one

[azure bay]

the one in The Mill seems coexisting with Laura's one

[vague imp]

but its always linked too the vanderboos

besides in seasons

wait no

im dumb

nvm i forgot laura was a vanderboom lmao

[real lantern]

Yeah, probably the original clock is the one that stayed in the mill

[azure bay]

Eilanders are believed by many not to be Vanderbooms

[vague imp]

the familys are related through mr crow and mr owl

but i dont think they are the same familly

well not genetically

in a reincarnation sense there are some links

[real lantern]

Maybe mr.crow left a repljca of the old clock in laura's house to see if it sparked any memories from her past life

[azure bay]

actually there is a good theory that relates Eilanders & Vanderbooms. However, that's still just a theory

[vague imp]

ooh what is it

[azure bay]

well

[real lantern]

Its good old ink hearts

[azure bay]

long story short, a fetus from Pheasant's past life that was covered in ink & left a heart behind is Elizabeth's son William that turned corrupted & used his old heart for a ritual

[royal notch]

I wrote something about that some days ago.

I Just think they're still memories.

But with a time reference in them.

[vague imp]

actually that does make sense

[azure bay]

Are these bright or dark then?

[royal notch]

Blue.

[azure bay]

unless Elizabeth had no time to give a birth due to enlightenment

[vague imp]

oh yeah

[azure bay]

however, there are possible pieces of evidence that she had

but that's yet uncertain

[vague imp]

also is seasons literal or just memories?

its just memories right?

[royal notch]

I think so.

But not sure.

[azure bay]

I prefer to see them as memories that actually affect the reality

but that's my subjective view

[vague imp]

because you play in them as a corrupted soul

aslo

im trying to figure out what the phone representss

in seasons

cause it clearly means something

it says the lines mr crow said in mill

[azure bay]

it says more then Crow has said. This voice is more associated with CS so I think it's actually corrupted Laura from winter instructing her past self.

[vague imp]

CS?

[real lantern]

Talking about mr crow talking, he has a realy high pitch voice 😆

[azure bay]

(corrupted soul)

[vague imp]

oh

hmmm

but why does giving the phone fuel let you change the past

[azure bay]

I had an idea that Laura was creating a good timeline for herself & fuel was required in order to become a part of it

[vague imp]

aah oki

makes sense

[azure bay]

not sure

that's just an assumption

[vague imp]

also

[real lantern]

Maybe its the phone fuel that makes you change the past, not the blue cube

[azure bay]

the past gets changed on its own: the cactus grows, Harvey's alive.

however, Laura doesn't go back to normal

[real lantern]

True

[vague imp]

also laura commited scuicide right?

[royal notch]

It's the most probably option.

For me, yes.

[vague imp]

yeah because of the prozac i assume it is

[real lantern]

Maybe? We see a lot of times a corrupted soul slitting her throat, but the corrupted soul could be her

[vague imp]

prozac is an antideppresant so she deffinetally was goign through stuff

[azure bay]

I expect something pushing her onto it. Cutting one's own throat is not popular for suicide

[vague imp]

yeah

[covert wyvern]

Williams soul manifested and took Laura's life

[royal notch]

The point is why?

[azure bay]

William was willing to live

[real lantern]

Yeah, some people say she had multiple personality disorder and thats why she killed herself

[vague imp]

explain please

[real lantern]

And thats why we always see a corrupted soul killing her, because its actualy william's personality doing it

[azure bay]

William is not that likely to be the cause. Samsara implies people being constantly reborn & the majority feels ok

what's more, William is no more. He has a new life & doesn't seem to remember his past.

[vague imp]

also DID*

[real lantern]

Sowwy

[vague imp]

its oki

[covert wyvern]

@vague imp I'm going to ask you to not correct the grammar / spelling of others.

if something's unclear because of it that's fine, otherwise it's just annoying.

[real lantern]

Yeah, i personaly dont buy into that theory, just saying that some people do haha

[vague imp]

it wasnt grammar btw "mutliple personality disorder" is now called DID or dissociative identity disorder

[azure bay]

I'm ok with people correcting me. It helps me imrove

[covert wyvern]

so it's a medical thing?

I see.

in that case, ignore me.

[vague imp]

its fine

[covert wyvern]

but my point still stands.

[real lantern]

I honestly dont mind if its something like, i used the wrong you're, but if its like, one letter in a random word its kind of a jerk move lmao

[covert wyvern]

that's why it's better to just don't ^

anyway, theories.

[real lantern]

But dont worry, im actualy thankful you pointed that out❤️

Yeah, theories lets get back on track😆

[vague imp]

yeah that wouldnt make much sense unless laura was physically abused as a child

[azure bay]

I expect Rose being a weird but loving mother

[vague imp]

and rose seems like a nice mom

not the abuses her kid type

[royal notch]

I personally think that Rose could being a point for her suicide.

[vague imp]

?

[royal notch]

Just think: Rose should have only 61 years at Laura's death.

But we never see her.

[real lantern]

I dont know, she seemed pretty atached to frank, and she could put laura at fault for killing him

[azure bay]

he is not confirmed being dead

[vague imp]

yeah

we dont really know what happaned to them

[real lantern]

Thats true

Also, does rose actualy give birth to laura or does she just appear in the lake or in the alchemist's lab or wherever

[vague imp]

i dont think so she does adopted and raised laura as her daughter

she was born from the lake

[azure bay]

what's the reason for staying in the clock for that long then?

[vague imp]

?

[azure bay]

Rose was kept in the clock

[vague imp]

yeah i never understood why she went in the clock

[azure bay]

I originally assumed that she was sitting there for 9 months

[vague imp]

possibly

that might be true

[azure bay]

Laura's birth date contradicts that assumption

[royal notch]

What Is the date? I don't remember.

[azure bay]

spring 1935

the same date of the "Roots" level

someone has mistaken

either me or the developpers

[real lantern]

When do we see her birthdate again?

[azure bay]

Paradox

[real lantern]

Chapter 2?

[azure bay]

1

in the archive

[real lantern]

Oh yeah, from the files

[vague imp]

im thinking about the blue cube again

[azure bay]

talking about the golden one it seems to be just another form of elixir

[vague imp]

for the golden cueb

i think it could let you change the future. not directly but be able to cause events that lead up too a certian future

because it is reffered to as "the key too the future"

[azure bay]

memories as a key to the future were mentioned 3 times

1. they were literally showing the future in Hotel

[vague imp]

hmm

[azure bay]

2. they were key elements for Jacob's future

[vague imp]

maybe it lets you see into the future?

[azure bay]

metaphorically they make his destined future happen

[vague imp]

yeah thats what i mean kinda

make a certain future happen

[azure bay]

3. in The Cave Laura's memories seem to be used in the very same way

what's more, the golden cube bares the elixir insignia in the book

[vague imp]

?

[real lantern]

In cave theres a drawing of the golden cube with a simbol on top, that simbol is the smae one that appears on the flask where.... the guy that gave the dog elixir makes elixir

I forgot his name lmao

[vague imp]

oh

hmmm wait

maybe the symbol represents the future

[real lantern]

I dont see how that would tie with the elixir

[vague imp]

the elixir either kills or makes you immiortal basically changing your entire future

[azure bay]

the same symbol is on Laura's cubes that are confirmed to contain memories about William's formula

[vague imp]

either ending your future or making it go on forever

[real lantern]

Oh yeah, on the book theres also the simbol LMAO

[azure bay]

that contradicts samsara

you can't live nor be damned forever

[vague imp]

oh yeah

[real lantern]

But what does the infinite beside the elixir mean if not infinite life?

[azure bay]

plus, both Aldous & William are not in their forms forever

[azure bay]

I expect that being a mistake on the alchemist's part

[vague imp]

the only problem with your theory about it being the same as the elixir

is if it is

why would they want it

[azure bay]

or it's actually able to grant an eternal life in case you are ably to keep it inside you

[azure bay]

the benefits are obvious even without eternal life

[vague imp]

but if they already have the elixir

there is no need for the golden cube

[azure bay]

their elixir is highly limited in quantity. Plus, the golden cube is likely for Dale

[real lantern]

Maybe it was a mistake from the alchemists, considering the point of being an alchemist was to create the elixir of eternal life, they could have gotten a bit excited and labeled it incorrectly lmao

[vague imp]

also

why would they be "the key to the future"

[covert wyvern]

the Rusty wiki isn't a good source of information, it's also not facts.

[real lantern]

Well, they wiki is fan made lmao

[vague imp]

oh

[azure bay]

the golden cube is the key to Dale's future

[vague imp]

nvm sorry sorry sorry

sorry

[azure bay]

what's more, Owl has said: "We need [memories] for our future. The full elixir"

[vague imp]

ill leave

[azure bay]

cya

[floral mauve]

I am kinda looking forward to see the meant of The Full Elixir

There are several assumptions I have right here:

1. The full elixir is the golden cube which is used as a metaphor
2. The full elixir exists and can permanently extend the life expectancy without leakage
3. The full Elixir can bring the Asura into the next stage of the samsara, deva (which I believe is the goal of Mr Owl)

(add something into there nowherecaw)

[azure bay]

4. The full elixir is just not that shitty extract

[ebon aspen]

@vague imp

[vague imp]

oh

well im garbage at making theories

so imma leave

[wise gate]

It my be an anagram of Metro Cube

[ebon aspen]

actually emote curb

jokes aside, i really thought about anagrams and stuff, but the mystery would have been solved already if that was the case

[wise gate]

I mean Metro Cube makes the most sense

OMG
https://www.coolmathgames.com/0-metrocubevania

[ebon aspen]

im looking forward for the new game to see if something make sense, but for now it would be only us bruteforcing a lot of cyphers and stuff

[cerulean crypt]

Just random thought
In box in cave (that one for last achiewment) there us a broken timepiecie, possibly it can be reference to RL Roots, and my thouth is
Didn't broken timepiece means that ritual from Roots can't be complete again?

[azure bay]

Why would they make this reference?

Seems completely unrelated

[azure bay]

Timepieces seem to be required just in order to open "the gate". Some kind of machine. No magic at all. I'd rather expect a story behind all the objects in the crate

[floral mauve]

emmmm, I hate myself for being lazy, I couldnt be bother to replay just for achievement

but a broken timepiece sounds interesting

which is the broken one

gold?

any screenshot?

[azure bay]

yes

[floral mauve]

ah

well might tell us that Rose is dead

(might not die peacefully)

[azure bay]

it might tell that timepiece is broken for any reason

[floral mauve]

could you send a photo of the broken one?

[azure bay]

not really

[floral mauve]

I am starting to have a little drama forming in my head

[azure bay]

there's just a bunch of objects

broken timepiece

room 6 key

"The Golden Cube" calling? card

[floral mauve]

interesting

[azure bay]

a photo of little Laura

& a card with "reubtmoce" written on it

[floral mauve]

I guess Mr Crow is a terrible manager at organising stuff

[azure bay]

why so?

[floral mauve]

Idk he is a manager

in hotel

[covert wyvern]

here ya go.

[floral mauve]

thx

Damy is the fastest

[high talon]

baby Laura!

[covert wyvern]

[floral mauve]

wait a minute

which is room 6

wtf

there are 5 rooms and 1 private vip Owl room

in the basement???

but I thought that is connected to the bottom of the lake

[azure bay]

It's either about Owl's room that was marked as room 6 in subtitles or Hotel is not as much smaller inside as we've seen

[floral mauve]

imagine baby Laura went to the Hotel

[high talon]

That's some trauma

[floral mauve]

where did you find this easter egg

like in Cave?

[covert wyvern]

yep

[floral mauve]

emmmmm

that might reveal that Mr Crow or Owl found Rose or went to Laura's home and took her old objects

maybe Laura broke the timepiece simply because she smashed it in the floor when she played with it

[azure bay]

we don't know who placed those objects in the crate

[floral mauve]

Rose?

[high talon]

Actually i wonder if Rose even let Laura go anywhere near the hotel lmao..

[floral mauve]

She is an epic mom I guess

[azure bay]

I guess, we'll find that out

this easter egg looks like a new game teaser

[covert wyvern]

I do think all of this is hinting at more laura content

yes.

[floral mauve]

maybe Rose had a stay at the hotel

since I highly doubt Mr Owl was actually doing some kind of business

maybe he is

Mr Owl loves a high quality life I believe

[high talon]

Maybe

[floral mauve]

he likes to sit on sofa and having cigar

made in RL

so he could be operating an actual hotel

since his main job is just to wait for things to happen

which means that beside the murder of the guests

there are actually some guests I suppose

from nearby village or Vanderbooms

Therefore, it is possible that Rose brought Laura there

or she went there alone

Plus, I am almost certain there are ppl living next to the lake or a couple km away since we saw Mary and Ida came out of nowhere

[azure bay]

I see no reasons for locals to stay in the hotel

[floral mauve]

probably business conference (I am just saying random shit)

[high talon]

Lmao yeah i doubt Rose really went to the hotel with or without Laura what reason would she have?
"Hey daughter of mine, lets go the the murder hotel"

[floral mauve]

nice scenery

a place to empty her mind

mental health and fishing

she knows what to do

yes

I mean you cant leave kid alone in a mansion full of dead ppl

I guess it might be a trip

[high talon]

Maybe

[floral mauve]

perhaps Laura returned to RL not only because of her mental health problem, but also her homesick and she miss Rose

Ok, this is getting sweet

[high talon]

Maybe yeah homesickness sucks lol

[floral mauve]

A further interpretation

She forgot her way back to RL

thats why she has to participate a contest to find her way home

(that sounds so stupid but why I think it is possible)

[azure bay]

what's possible?

[floral mauve]

this

today I am just inventing random theories with random correlation

[azure bay]

I think there were just no reasons to return

maybe a conflict

[floral mauve]

homesickness

[azure bay]

or painfull memories

[floral mauve]

whot?

[azure bay]

I expect something bad to have happened that made Laura leave that region

with or without Rose

[floral mauve]

or probably Rose sent her away

time to begin her own life as an independent young adult

lol

[azure bay]

why was Laura required a contest to win in order to return back?

[floral mauve]

she forgot her way back home

maybe the current city she met Bob is too far from home

[floral mauve]

and her memories are garbage as hell

its a mess

[azure bay]

no evidence yet

[floral mauve]

its just my random interpretation

probably not even makes sense

[azure bay]

I think we need to continue digging

[floral mauve]

However, I think Rose sent her away

because she still has the sketchbook with her

thats the few of the touching moment in RL

[azure bay]

then Rose is likely to be dead

[floral mauve]

yep

she is not enlightened or anything

likely

[azure bay]

since Laura has no hard feelings for her & no reasons to return

[floral mauve]

?

wdym she doesnt have hard feelings for her

[azure bay]

I see 2 reasons not to return to Rose

[high talon]

likely old age lol

[azure bay]

1. They had an argument
2. Rose is already dead

the sketchbook kinda eliminates the 1st one

[floral mauve]

thats why she wanted to return to visit her grave

do you have any feelings???

[azure bay]

what kind of feelings?

[floral mauve]

like sad?!

or miss others?!

[covert wyvern]

Laura may not have liked Rose.

there may not have been any grief,

we do not know.

[floral mauve]

true

[high talon]

true

[covert wyvern]

Im assuming this is stuff we'd find out in a new RL game.

or well

a new game centered on laura*

[floral mauve]

but according to the sketchbook I think at least she doesnt disgust Rose

[covert wyvern]

the new game coming out is obviously about albert

[azure bay]

we've seen Laura keeping Rose's sketchbook. That indicates emotional connection

[covert wyvern]

yes, I'm inclined to agre.

agree*

[floral mauve]

awww, I was hoping more centered on Rose

[ivory girder]

who knows, we might get a big plot twist

[azure bay]

no worries, we'll probably get young Laura next

[floral mauve]

yey

[azure bay]

I'm more worried about 20k bc

[floral mauve]

?

[ivory girder]

the mammoth lmao

[azure bay]

the game about prehistoric lake seems very promising. Yet we haven't heard about it since early 2019

[ivory girder]

hope that rl didn't scrap the whole thing

[floral mauve]

they didnt release anything in 2019 right?

[ivory girder]

ye

paradox is 2018 right?

[azure bay]

although their road map was teasing both 20k & TPW to be released in 2019

[ivory girder]

the past within is also in that thing?

i didn't notice that

[real lantern]

Yep, its there, right after the mammoth game c:

[covert wyvern]

well ye but the devlog explains how TPW basically re-started from scratch

[azure bay]

the logo of cube inside another cube seems to be currently related to TPW

[ivory girder]

so that means the mammoth thing might be scrapped

[high talon]

rip

[azure bay]

no official announcement

[floral mauve]

I didnt see any 20K info in the blog

I scrolled 5 pages

[azure bay]

I still expect it to be released at some point

[real lantern]

Wow the kickstarter for paradox was filled in 6 hours? Thats so cool!

[ivory girder]

they scrapped both then make twd, then re-start tpw, that's what i think

like twd came out from nowhere

[azure bay]

the best time would be right before Dale's ending if my expectations about 20k being the origin story of the lake itself are correct

[ivory girder]

but then twd happened

[floral mauve]

I really hope the devs wont f up the plot

at least not contradictive

[real lantern]

Ooo new common name for "the mammoth thing" i like it

[covert wyvern]

there's no screwing up

they control the entire thing

[floral mauve]

just like Mr Owl

[azure bay]

I think it already is. We just can't prove it for sure

[floral mauve]

[real lantern]

Im sorry i can contribute i just lost a lot of the conversation

[azure bay]

hey, we're here to find ways around it

[floral mauve]

idk things are getting way complicated after Paradox

[azure bay]

in what way?

[floral mauve]

the endings

of Dale

[azure bay]

Dale's appearance made Laura's story complicated

[floral mauve]

A middle aged man got dragged into the whole incident

[ivory girder]

the laura's life is already very complicated

[floral mauve]

makes another woman's fate more complicated

[ivory girder]

dale is def has something special, no way he is just a random detective

[floral mauve]

the funny thing is, She is dead all the way we play through the game

but the story is about her

[floral mauve]

obviously

[azure bay]

The Lake featured her still being alive

[floral mauve]

I think he is into something after Mr Rabbit appears

[floral mauve]

right

since a solid CS is different

[real lantern]

Also, about the conversation earlier about rose, how do we know she lived in the lake after laura was born?

[azure bay]

in what way?

[floral mauve]

might in the hotel as I mentioned earlier

[azure bay]

we just assume

[ivory girder]

we know nothing lmao

[floral mauve]

a CS covered on the body, that only happened when that person is alive

like Dale or Bob

so yeah, Laura is not that dead

slightly dead I suppose

[azure bay]

I'm sure you are over-complicating this one. You don't have substantial statistics to prove your point

[floral mauve]

trueeeee

[real lantern]

I mean, if we assume that rose moved away from the lake, atleast one of the questions is awnsered, for example."why did she have to win a contest to go to the lake"

[floral mauve]

but I am just trying to sort out CS

in different group

[ivory girder]

idk it could be just for fun

[covert wyvern]

is there a good reason to do that?

A corrupted souls just a corrupted soul right, no matter the circumstance.

[azure bay]

they may or may not die before corruption. They may or may not keep the older body

[floral mauve]

well, according to my observation, there are at least two type of CS,

1. alive person cover in CS: Laura, Bob, Dale
2. CS in spirit form :guests, William, Caroline

[azure bay]

Rose?

[floral mauve]

also if we take in account Samsara

[floral mauve]

ignore it

[real lantern]

Ah that makes more sense haha

[ivory girder]

well we are in william's pov when that happened so i'm not sure with the william's one

[floral mauve]

the CS should a form of a soul

just like enlightenment

but devolving

[ruby lark]

Hi guys, new here.
The story about Dale Vandemeer is kinda foggy to me, but I hope the in-his-mind episodes do make sense. I know there is a lot of symbolism (or just repetitive ornaments ), but I can't figure out what the golden cube from the ending of The Cave and a green poison from the Paradox movie mean. Do you have any ideas?

[azure bay]

The movie indicates that all 3 of the vials are equally accessible. I think we don't see it in the game because Dale is very unlikely to choose it due to its expected effect

for some reason he knows that something bad is going to happen to him

he can choose this one on purpose only when he understands that it'd save Laura

& the choice itself seems difficult

[ruby lark]

Yeah, the vials aren't probably that significant or symbolic to the story...

[azure bay]

I tend to think otherwise.

They may indicate Dale's ultimate choice of who'll die & who'll be enlightened

Laura made it clear that it's up to him

[ruby lark]

What confuses me is that there are two options - death do Dale or Laura - and three vials. The red one should mean death to Dale and the blue one death to Laura, right? (as indicate door handles)

[azure bay]

I think no, cause the choice also seems not that simple

the events & text lines make clear that Dale & Laura can not coexist

The blue vial seems to be the reason

(at least in Paradox)

because after drinking it Dale inevitably kills Laura

The green vial is the only way to prevent it

(to kill the killer before he kills)

& the red one seems more like an attempt to escape this choice

but, as Crow tells, "you can't escape consequences of your actions"

[ruby lark]

Alright, this makes sense, thanks.

[ruby lark]

So if Dale had chosen the green vial in the movie, would he be able to escape the paradox? Or come back in time? I see that the only way to become a successor of mr. Owl is to kill Laura (or realise it since it happened in the past), in other words the only way is the blue vial.

[azure bay]

I see 2 secret endings being escapes from Paradox

one of them is just not preferable for Dale's health

by finding the golden cube Dale seemingly accepts the reality of dead Laura & goes on

That also likely coincides with The Cave ending

because Dale was still unconscious then

& could still see reality distorted by visions of Paradox

[ruby lark]

Hmm, a lot to think about... Anyways thanks again!

[azure bay]

Bare in mind that these are just interpretations of mine

the others may have different ones

[vague imp]

eh
make sure you use spoiler tags when saying spoilers

[ebon aspen]

Well, this whole channel would be only spoiler tags after all XD

I really recommend playing all the games before scrolling the convos from here, discussing theories end up needing a lot of lore knowledge

[covert wyvern]

Just to add to this^ official server policy states that only content from the new game should be spoilertagged

But parrot is definitely right, this entire channel is one big spoiler

[floral mauve]

I think this is the main timeline right?

his final decision

which is going into the elevator

[azure bay]

What makes it main?

[floral mauve]

Well all of the Cube escape games I consider them as main timeline

like birthday and theatre

[azure bay]

I'd rather call it timeline under focus

[floral mauve]

yes

well under focus means MAIN isnt it

[azure bay]

I watched the 1st episode of Loki series recently. There was an organization that defined what was the main timeline & was willing to cease all the deviations from it

[floral mauve]

yep

[azure bay]

In RL there is seemingly no one to do at least the defining something as main

[floral mauve]

shuuu Dami is gonna catch you *whisper

[covert wyvern]

@floral mauve Damy

[floral mauve]

ahhh

[covert wyvern]

the y is right there, its not that hard.

[covert wyvern]

we have no sacred timeline in this universe, at least not yet

[floral mauve]

no three random god

only Mr Owl

and Mr Crow

probably Dale

well the decision of Dale is the definition of the sacred timeline

[covert wyvern]

we don't know, that's just an assumption.

[floral mauve]

just the plot probably

[covert wyvern]

I mean plotwise it makes sense,

[floral mauve]

as a metaphor

[covert wyvern]

but who knows.

[azure bay]

They seem to from a preferable timeline

[floral mauve]

(but damn why everyone is a fan of Marvel (include me

[floral mauve]

prefered by....Dale???

[covert wyvern]

that's not a topic to get into in this channel but I'm assuming people just like superheroes.

[azure bay]

The one according to the plan

However there seem to be plenty of other timelines assuming that multiverse exists in the 1st place

There are also some controversies with theory of forming the timeline

They seem to lack the elixir. Why wouldn't they go & take the elixir or its inventor from a different timeline?

[floral mauve]

perhaps they dont know how to travel between different timelines??????

[azure bay]

The thing is you inevitably create one each time you go back

& that is not meant to affect you

[ruby lark]

Oh god, I've just found out there is a secret ||ending in Paradox - with the green vial!|| Sorry, I'll continue with my investigation.

[cerulean crypt]

hmmm

If when Dale is hurted during Paradox C1 and the wound stays in C2

and he has no wound at start of C1

that mean the previous paradox room were different

[floral mauve]

BRUH

Isnt that a loop

(Imagine Mr Owl just dropped him in the floor like fuck it)

[cerulean crypt]

But it still can be different

maybe previus Dale didn't hit the floor so hard

[floral mauve]

.

maybe he didnt

someone throwed him in the air and hurts his head on the edge of the table

or he is so high after he had his vial then he hurts his head on the edge

over and over again

that gotta be hurt

Bob didnt do it on the edge

he just BANGed the table

[forest spindle]

Is that Albert or mr. deer

[covert wyvern]

it's likely Dale, if anyone

[forest spindle]

Now the question is

[forest spindle]

Why in gods earth did dale go all deer on us

[covert wyvern]

who knows!

[forest spindle]

Also another thing

With white door

Is the white door actual rusty lake

[covert wyvern]

no I think it's a facility, probably ran by Mr. Owl for who knows why

[forest spindle]

I believe it could possibly be that

Or rusty lake hotel is an old thing and not reality

[covert wyvern]

also a possibility, but i think the hotel is real.

[floral mauve]

Probably the form after he obtained the golden cube after his traumatizing elevator journey

might be deva

[azure bay]

It's supposed to be actually curing

[cerulean crypt]

He leave white cubes, so no trauma should remain

[floral mauve]

whatever

I suppose he has reached a higher consicousness

[azure bay]

That what Owl says

I don't see reasons not to believe him yet

[floral mauve]

deva lets gooooo

[random flare]

I don’t know if this has been brought up before, and it might be obvious cuz I’m kinda dumb. But do you guys think that the reason Dale and Laura are being put through all of this is so that one of them can replace Mr.Owl?

[ebon aspen]

it seems so

[high talon]

Yep

[cerulean crypt]

Dale more likely

Laura is dead during Paradox

[random flare]

Ah ok. Sorry I’m a bit slow when it comes to figuring out stuff like this 😅

[floral mauve]

Well I dont know if Laura is dead dead

It looks like she still has a small chance of being alive in another timeline

but according to the whole series of RL games, after the elevator journey of Dale. He has already made his decision

so, Laura is dead dead

[broken rune]

Yes she is

[azure bay]

still depends on perspective

[vague imp]

Are mr crow and mr owl's whole bodies covered in feathers or only the head?

[slender trail]

Oh god I don’t want to think about that

I think it’s just the head?

They have human hands and there’s one scene in The Cave I believe where Aldous’s head switches back and forth between crow and human and I’d like to think his body doesn’t shift with it

[vague imp]

whole body
next time you play cube escape look at their hands

[azure bay]

actually that's not that consistent

the visual of Crow in a trench coat had always featherless hands. In Hotel as well. However every other time they were feathered

I guess, the last one is canonical

what's more, their human bird forms may not fully be the same

at lest in Mr. Owl's case

his constitution differs

[royal notch]

Last time we saw Jakob thin is in 1966, he could have changed during this time.

Or maybe is just a character restauration.

[azure bay]

His owl form haven't change even since 1893

What I'm trying to say

[royal notch]

In Paradox Is different.

[azure bay]

time span between 1893 & 1966 is huge

[azure bay]

because it was his Theatre form with a head out of context

ah

another thing

[royal notch]

What?

[azure bay]

This is how Owl would look in his canonical form in Paradox

[royal notch]

Oh, right.

[real lantern]

@ebon aspen huh, well i'l be damned lmao

[vague imp]

what is the lore behind mitoza

[covert wyvern]

'there is none! none connnected to RL, anyway,.

[winter scarab]

I havent really interacted with the RL fandom that much, but i really like the games and would like to check out some theories, but im a bit lost. Whats something you guys are still trying to figure out? Ive watched the timeline videos Razz Jazz and i havent played paradise and roots.

[covert wyvern]

well, technically speaking, we're still figuring out everything

nothings set in stone!

[winter scarab]

Thats true, but from what ive seen i havent found alternate theories to them. Although i might just havent looked into it enough

Also question: you can talk about spoilers in this channel right?

[azure bay]

Pretty much everything has an alternative interpretation or several. What exactly would you like to know?

[winter scarab]

Thats the thing, i dont really know

Maybe i should play the premium games first

[covert wyvern]

spoilers are fine anywhere, just use spoiler tags when talking about the latest release.

[winter scarab]

Alright

Thank you

[azure bay]

Premium games give some background knowledge but usually don't affect the Story of Dale

[winter scarab]

Alright thank you

Also man William really went through all that sacrifice collecting and samsara, only to get corrupted again as Laura

[azure bay]

samsara room seems not to be that much of a challenge to overcome

I think visiting it is normal during any rebirth

[winter scarab]

Yeah, still sucks though

[azure bay]

Actually I consider that as a piece of evidence against Laura's suicide

[winter scarab]

Why did she die though? Was she killed by Mr crow or Mr owl to extract her memories?

It would make sense since possibly to create the golden cube they need someone who has drank the elixir and died

[azure bay]

I really don't think they would kill her

[covert wyvern]

Considering Owl let harvey do the dirty work and WIllem sort of ghost tricked his family into misfdortune