🤔｜theories

[floral mauve]

he is the only pussy who rather waits half a century to reborn

[stable wigeon]

he cheated his way

[floral mauve]

whereas others just do it directly

[stable wigeon]

i mean i c wym

[azure bay]

William didn't follow samsara. He decided to exploit it as most of other characters

[stable wigeon]

^

[floral mauve]

so no one fucking follows

fuck samsara

[stable wigeon]

we have never witnessed the event of natural samsara

i mean they do

but we dont see it

[floral mauve]

death is a joke in RL universe

[stable wigeon]

it seems to be implied

[floral mauve]

except for Vanderbooms

[azure bay]

A ton of people of screen do

They are not interesting tho

[stable wigeon]

ye lame

reincarnation lame

sacrifice cool

[floral mauve]

like its the same group of ppl after all

the Eilanders and Vanderboom and Harvey

nothing has changed

except a random god slayer Dale has joined the chat

[stable wigeon]

Eilanders are very religous

Vanderbooms have been tampered with by William and Aldous their whole lives

[azure bay]

May I ask you not to force flying fish god meme that seriously?

[floral mauve]

bruh

[stable wigeon]

good meme tho

[floral mauve]

I structured it carefully

[stable wigeon]

lol

[floral mauve]

its a serious theory

[azure bay]

It may confuse people

[floral mauve]

it links

[stable wigeon]

i mean it isnt technically wrong

is it?

[azure bay]

Links are not the only thing that make good theories

[floral mauve]

I used so many evidence to show the existence of the flying fish god

[stable wigeon]

i actually considered

that dev form wasnt mr owl

[floral mauve]

[stable wigeon]

cuz that doesnt make sense

[azure bay]

We have just a flying fish

[stable wigeon]

lmao

[floral mauve]

so it is just a fish

[stable wigeon]

i always thought that was metaphorical in all honesty

[azure bay]

There is no evidence of it being a god

[floral mauve]

that got enlightened

[stable wigeon]

oops

[azure bay]

We have no evidence of it being enlightened

[floral mauve]

flying and killed the old lady with curse

[stable wigeon]

well can normal fish fly?

[floral mauve]

it has holy light shining on it

[stable wigeon]

actually

normal fish can fly

sort of

[azure bay]

The legged fish is canon. What else can we say?

[stable wigeon]

wack

[floral mauve]

but can it travels time and sneak in ppls house?

[stable wigeon]

i try not to think

of that cursed image

[azure bay]

There was no holy light

[floral mauve]

well ,in fish and parrot there is

[azure bay]

None

[stable wigeon]

maybe there was a pond nearby it jumped

[floral mauve]

bruh

[floral mauve]

you can replay theatre

there is

I played it 3 times

the fish itself shines

and flies

flying fish godddd

[covert wyvern]

I agree that the fish floats up

[floral mauve]

sneak into ppls house

[azure bay]

The only light beams seen in theatre was

1. from the songstress' mouth
2. from the mill

[covert wyvern]

but I don't think there was any "floating" light

[floral mauve]

I am gonna screen shot it later

or find it in youtube

[azure bay]

The fish was a part of the animal play

[stable wigeon]

but in all seriousness

[azure bay]

It has no way of being a powerful being

[stable wigeon]

is the fish owl?

we see him and crow

we see him and harvey

or her

[azure bay]

Fish is Owl's future

[stable wigeon]

but normal fish dont have legs

[azure bay]

I expect him to be reborn as a fish after he perishes

[stable wigeon]

u still think its the animal part of samsara?

also btw if it is owl it cant all be the same fish

otherwise it would die twice

[floral mauve]

well sorry

I was fucking wrong

[stable wigeon]

unless the fish trap was indeed metaphorical

[floral mauve]

this fish tricked me!!!

fake god

[covert wyvern]

it's fine to be wrong.

but It might be wise to bury the fish god permanently and focus on other horizons

😉

[floral mauve]

so this its not flying fish god, its flying fish!

[stable wigeon]

along with what i just mentioned

[stable wigeon]

how do u explain it dying twice?

[floral mauve]

the mill one?

[stable wigeon]

ye

the mill and birthday

[azure bay]

Roots, The Lake, The Mill, Birthday

[covert wyvern]

I think they're just different fish?

lmao

[stable wigeon]

lol

BUT

[covert wyvern]

why wouldnt they be. there's so many fish that look exactly the same

[stable wigeon]

theres nothing distinguishing them from eachother

[floral mauve]

true

[stable wigeon]

so like thats just baseless presumptions

[floral mauve]

I have a theory that I proposed yesterday

the lady ate the fish

[stable wigeon]

thats offensive to fish

[floral mauve]

which was cursed since it is a relative of the flying fish

she cant close the door of the cupboard

she got killed brutally

[covert wyvern]

I don't think fish will mind.

[stable wigeon]

perhaps not

[azure bay]

Crow's wife is likely to be killed by Laura

[floral mauve]

yes but why cant she close the cupboard

the door

[azure bay]

Laura?

[floral mauve]

no, the old lady

[stable wigeon]

shes....

....dead?

[floral mauve]

rememebr she was sitting in the cupboard

[azure bay]

Why would it stop a blood thirsty CS?

[floral mauve]

but why didnt she try to close the door or something like that

[stable wigeon]

^

CS arent stopped by doors

[floral mauve]

because if she cant see the lady

[stable wigeon]

fam

your theory is falling apart

[floral mauve]

awww

[stable wigeon]

sorry

[floral mauve]

[stable wigeon]

😔

[floral mauve]

nvm

it was a joke at the beginging anyway

but yo still cant explain the fish trap!

[stable wigeon]

but damy was right i really think they arent the same fish

[floral mauve]

[stable wigeon]

like i said

the fish is a symbol more likely than an actual character

[azure bay]

@stable wigeon don't you think that Owl will become a legged fish?

[stable wigeon]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[floral mauve]

thats true

[stable wigeon]

legged fish

i always block that image out of my head

[floral mauve]

the leg was sexy for me when I was young

reverse mermaid

[stable wigeon]

lmao

[azure bay]

@stable wigeon I was just curious

[stable wigeon]

mermaids CANON

[azure bay]

Could misunderstand you

[stable wigeon]

idk

i mean it may represent owl

[covert wyvern]

I wouldnt be surprised if Owl does end up a mermaid / fish in his next life

[floral mauve]

bruh

[stable wigeon]

since like i said crow and fish and harvey and fish

[covert wyvern]

a fitting slot for someone who served the lake I suppose

[floral mauve]

the king of the lake

literally in the lake

[azure bay]

Owl's future mind predicts him being a fish

[floral mauve]

(but that leg looks sexy)

[covert wyvern]

aye.

@floral mauve tone down the "sexy" comments. this server isn't the place.

[stable wigeon]

when i first saw that i kinda thought it may have been metaphorical

[floral mauve]

so I assume its a female one?

ok

[stable wigeon]

but im having second thoughts

idk

so many fish

i assumed it must be a symbol

[floral mauve]

smells fishy

[stable wigeon]

the same symbol

[floral mauve]

quotes by Ms pheasant

[stable wigeon]

delete that

oh tru

i forgot lol

[azure bay]

I encourage you 2 to google a symbolism of a fish

[stable wigeon]

well i meant

[floral mauve]

symbolism of a flying fish

[stable wigeon]

a symbol defined by RL universe

but ok

wait

holy shit that checks out

[azure bay]

The only symbolism defined by RL is being just an animal. At least it's the only thing I see

[prisma monolith]

Symbolism of a fish? Like how anchovies swim with the crowd, or like how a salmon swims up the waterfall?

[stable wigeon]

no

[floral mauve]

bruh

[vague imp]

lol

[stable wigeon]

rather its symbolism as defined with its association with things seen across the RL universe

also

nm

[floral mauve]

I guess whatever fish it is, it cannot resist the delicious worm

[prisma monolith]

I associate fish with general oddity in the RL universe

[stable wigeon]

was that a typo or a pun i didnt understand

oh ok

[prisma monolith]

You can't just catch a fish with a mousetrap in real life

[vague imp]

A fish symbolizes fertility, feelings, creativity, rebirth, good luck, transformation, health, abundance, serenity, intelligence, happiness, strength, and endurance. Connecting us with the water element, it represents the deeper awareness of the unconsciousness or higher self.

[stable wigeon]

yea thats why i has to be a metaphor

[floral mauve]

never say no before you try it

[vague imp]

What if you put it on a fishing line

[prisma monolith]

Rebirth, you say?

[stable wigeon]

hmm

[azure bay]

Any info on why a rebirth?

[stable wigeon]

i was more interested in the higher self part

[vague imp]

According to a website with astrology in the name

[stable wigeon]

but that too

[prisma monolith]

Also, the fish you encounter when in a submarine in a lake (is a thing, but more acquainted with oceans)

[stable wigeon]

yea i thought it had to do with the lake

[floral mauve]

many of my comrades told me that the flying fish represents deva

[azure bay]

A moth is more suited for rebirtg here.

[stable wigeon]

i thought fish=lake

more or less

but i am second guessing

[azure bay]

Then it would be featured in the deva play

Not the animal one

[stable wigeon]

truu

[floral mauve]

but it god damn flies

[stable wigeon]

bro

theres SO MANY FISH

WHICH ONES ARE REAL WHICH ONES ARE METAPHORS

[floral mauve]

what kinda normal animal flies after eating a worm

[prisma monolith]

A lot of things can be associated with a lake (I live in Minnesota, so I'm familiar with them lol)

[azure bay]

Any mutant from Rusty Lake

[floral mauve]

bruh

[stable wigeon]

that explains the legs

lmao

[floral mauve]

I guess RL is polluted by uranium waste

[stable wigeon]

yikes

[prisma monolith]

Isn't the reverse mermaid a reference to an artist?

[stable wigeon]

uranium waste turned the lake into hell

[azure bay]

Rather by memory waste

[floral mauve]

well you can see some giant fish in a small lake

[stable wigeon]

and shark

[floral mauve]

thats some heavy metal pollution mutant we saw

[covert wyvern]

except the lake has always been the lake

[stable wigeon]

dont forget the shark

[prisma monolith]

And anglerfish

[covert wyvern]

and the first nuclear power plant didn't open until 1954

😉

[floral mauve]

too many rust

[stable wigeon]

the legged fish was in 72 wasnt it

[azure bay]

A freaking good point

[prisma monolith]

Since the lake is "powered" by memories, maybe it's polluted by the bad ones

[stable wigeon]

mutants were after 54

[stable wigeon]

i actually kinda think along the same line

[floral mauve]

trueeee

[covert wyvern]

this seems likely.

[floral mauve]

since the cave happens after 54

[prisma monolith]

Or at the very least, the embarrassing ones lol

[stable wigeon]

well black memories seem to be

[prisma monolith]

Pollution of shame

[stable wigeon]

the most powerful

the most emotional

[floral mauve]

the most toxic

[stable wigeon]

no more puns plz

im tired

i should sleep

[floral mauve]

I should study

why did I even start this conversation anyway

[stable wigeon]

ok then bye? im probably gon come back

[floral mauve]

theories

[covert wyvern]

now go take care of your life priorities you two

[floral mauve]

[cerulean crypt]

Actualy Laura killed herself or maybe CS kiled her like we see sometimes

We never see her real dead

maybe it was just an ordinar murder

[astral frost]

I would tend to consider Laura's memory in Cave a reliable memory

The one where she slits her own throat

[royal notch]

Me too.

[azure bay]

She still could be possessed by someone else

I'm not really buying CS killing its body then being pissed off about it

In the previous live a CS has put a great effort into getting this body

So seemingly does the current one in Seasons

Too inconsistent for me

[stable wigeon]

so ive been reading about jungian psychology as mentioned in TWD website

im aware i am not special in doing this but a particular word caught my eye: "substance"

ofc thats just a vocabulary maybe completely irrelevant maybe im connecting 2 points 2 easily

however

this further elaborates my previous thought that the substance refers to good or bad memories

OK maybe not but it pointed me in a new direction: manifestations of archetypes

perhaps "balancing the substance" is correlated to finding individual substinance to give meaning to archetypes

i.e. as i mentioned going back in time to change memories; change memories to give meaning to the archetypes

or maybe this is all a tangent based on the one word substance in which case sorry for being rather impulsive ignore everything i just said

[stable wigeon]

perhaps both pheasant and rabbit needed a substinance to give meaning to the role of pistol?

im going to look into possible symbols such as this hopefully not in vain

[stable wigeon]

then yes mr rabbit needed the actual pistol however only due to him giving it meaning (he was shot by it)

both pheasant and rabbit needed to be shot by the pistol

[floral mauve]

but why cant they experience a paradox or season style memory trip

instead they went back time to actually influence it

[stable wigeon]

well first off

keep in mind that is comparing third person to 1st person

[floral mauve]

we dont know if its real

[stable wigeon]

different perspectives we didnt see their entire journey

[floral mauve]

but rabbit massacre is real

[stable wigeon]

im always working under the presumption that changing the past is "real"

it doesnt make sense to me otherwise

[floral mauve]

that depends

[stable wigeon]

and maybe its because

[floral mauve]

if you are talking about Dale

thats less likely to be real

[floral mauve]

or Laura

[stable wigeon]

u mean in his head?

[floral mauve]

yes

[stable wigeon]

just because the game took place in his head doesnt mean the events that lead to the other versions of himself didnt happen at some point

in their own timelines

[floral mauve]

because according what you said, Mr Rabbit and Pheasant are also experiencing something like change the past

[stable wigeon]

maybe not

youre right

in that it is different

but for one they arent all doing the same thing

well

they could be

[floral mauve]

bruh

[stable wigeon]

but i dont know if they are all trying to accomplish the same goal or not

[floral mauve]

who knows

Dale doesnt even know what he is doing

[stable wigeon]

the only ones who said balance substance were rabbit and lady in blue

lady in blue has pheasant hat so i see that as her past life

or one of her lives

they were both residents of the hotel and both the eilanders

hence explains why they had similar archetypes they needed to fill

cuz they had similar pasts

but that last bit is speculation lol

but yeah i dont think rabbit fits in with going in the past unless he physically went back in time which idk i still am not inclined to believe that

so i dont think rabbit went to the past

probably happened in the present maybe the future

probably not the future lol

[azure bay]

Paradox is not a simple memory trip we've seen before. It had a different purpose

[azure bay]

I tend to think that going back in time & revisiting memories are mostly the same

[floral mauve]

However, I have a thought

lets keep things more simple

I start to believe that the birthday change past is not real and distorted

that means Mr Owl may distort Dale's memory

[azure bay]

I call in not distortion but rather alteration

[floral mauve]

for example, the birthday present and his letter,even phone call

those are added

its more like a dream

[azure bay]

& I see no problem with Owl altering past in order to Dale continue doing so more easily

the thing is

all the memories seem to be altered by the domino effect

[floral mauve]

Therefore, that means Mr Rabbit didnt want to get shot by Dale

its just an alternative unreal ending for Dale

[azure bay]

agree here

[azure bay]

not necessarily

Dale's state of mind was actually changed

[floral mauve]

true

[azure bay]

At least I assume so

[floral mauve]

but reality didnt

his parents are still dead

Mr Rabbit took the pistol

didnt get shot

actually

[azure bay]

Mr. Rabbit is dead & wandering the lake with the others

[floral mauve]

we dont even know whats in the box

since the memory didnt reveal the fact

might be edited by Mr Owl

[floral mauve]

true

[azure bay]

I want you to understand one thing

the assumption of memory changes not affecting the reality is objectively no better than assumption of them doing so.

these are mostly interpretations

with all the data I've seen I interpret that changing the past via memories is possible

it would be a fresh nice fiction concept

however, there are individuals that get sick on dealing with time travel in fiction

as it's being overused nowadays

& it's difficult to implement it properly

assuming that no one tells lies, we have much evidence in favor of memories affecting the past. Both iconic & not that much

you can probably find evidence of otherwise

the only thing we need to do is hearing out each other

if none of us convinces the opponent, it's better to accept both pov as equally possible

(spoiler alert! I've done that long ago)

[stable wigeon]

thing is how is the rabbit's memory at all related to the pistol

unless we are talking about the "altered" event

they both got shot by that pistol

pheasant by her own hand

if that pistol is the key

then him getting shot with it is also very significant

[azure bay]

that doesn't mean that 2 shots must be related

[stable wigeon]

wym

how else is the pistol important to rabbit?

[azure bay]

He could give it to Pheasant as a present

[stable wigeon]

all we know about the pistol is it shot him and it shot pheasant

[azure bay]

he could lend it back in Hotel

[stable wigeon]

but again

he was shot by the very pistol he was after

that cant be coincidental

[azure bay]

if he needed to be shot by this pistol he didn't have to kill anyone during the original event

[stable wigeon]

why u say that

if he didnt kill dales family he wouldnt have gotten shot by grandpa

[azure bay]

he would if he scared them enough & on purpose gave them time to use it

[stable wigeon]

but he also needed it

also wait

[azure bay]

he either needed it or needed to be shot by it

[stable wigeon]

no thats not right

it was locked remember

they couldnt have accessed it

[azure bay]

you think grandpa wouldn't have a mean to open his own chest?

[stable wigeon]

he apparently didnt

[azure bay]

why are you so sure?

[stable wigeon]

cause the coin was nowhere to be found

[azure bay]

why Rabbit couldn't take the coin from his cold body?

[stable wigeon]

he did didnt he

oh wait

[azure bay]

we don't know

[stable wigeon]

lmao

idk i think it could be either way

why i am obsessed with this pistol argument

everything about this game is about memories and experiences etc

the only thing that can give those items significance

is the memories associated with them

as far as i am aware

[azure bay]

assuming that grandpa was real, the pistol must've belonged to him. He knew its location & he was also the only one to be able to use it efficiently. So he had to know the way to open that chest

[stable wigeon]

fair enough

where do we get the coin from again

[azure bay]

from the already open chest

[stable wigeon]

oh

hmm

again i think it could be either way

theres no solid evidence

and both seem logical to me

[azure bay]

the other one seems strange to me

why on Earth would grandpa know this pistol so well if he was unable to use it?

[stable wigeon]

why are you certain he even knew what was in that box

[azure bay]

"open the chest"

[stable wigeon]

that part

ok thats another can of worms

always regarded that as instruction from the game

soley because

why the hell would he know to get the gun

makes zero sense

[azure bay]

probably because it belonged to him

& he knew how to use it

[stable wigeon]

but he didnt know before

and all that has changed

is that now the chest is open

[prisma monolith]

Doesn't the grandpa have a resemblance to Aldous?

[stable wigeon]

i dont think he does imo

[azure bay]

that's another topic to discuss

[azure bay]

no, we have another thing

Dale had knowledge from then on

[stable wigeon]

yes

that too

dale did

also the coin

[azure bay]

He could tell everyone & grandpa would be the only person cool enough to take the grandson seriously

[stable wigeon]

he could

but the coin

if he had his own coin

[prisma monolith]

Maybe the plot hole concerning who knew where the gun was is because the part after rewinding the time is actually a test of character by Mr. Owl

[stable wigeon]

why didnt he use it

we used the one from the past

[azure bay]

I think that's not that important

[stable wigeon]

of all nitty gritty details

we dont see the coin at all

until rabbit has arrived

and we only use that coin

[prisma monolith]

As far as we know, preventing his family's death in no way other than proving something affects Dale

[stable wigeon]

to open the chest

[azure bay]

once again, it could be hidden deep in grandpa's pockets

[stable wigeon]

well not necessarily

yes it could but it's peculiar

if he had his own coin why didnt he use that

why did he use the coin his grandson had

[azure bay]

because Dale is the protagonist that has to experience all the gameplay

[stable wigeon]

he wouldnt even know about it

[prisma monolith]

And remember, Dale was only 9 at the time, the memory could've been fabricated to some point (what 40-year-old perfectly remembers an event that happened 30 years prior?)

[stable wigeon]

yes and grandpa can reach to his pocket to give it to dale

he would say "open the chest" and give him the coin

[azure bay]

why would he if Dale already had one?

[prisma monolith]

And children that underwent some sort of trauma have their brains purposely block those memories

[stable wigeon]

because this is an important detail

[azure bay]

we don't currently discuss what's real or not

[stable wigeon]

i would think if there wasnt only one coin

[azure bay]

we discuss the pistol

[stable wigeon]

idk i find it something i cannot disregard

otherwise why is it important if he had one

why is it apart of the time machine

its important every detail matters

[azure bay]

I have a suspicion that the devs would disagree with you

[stable wigeon]

if its not important the pistol isn't important

thats how we reached this point in the argument right

[azure bay]

The pistol was important for Rabbit

that's why he likely took it

[stable wigeon]

but he also murders dales family

for a reason

[azure bay]

there might be no reason at all

[stable wigeon]

maybe not but its a hole i am not willing to look over

[azure bay]

Devs might've just needed to create a tragic origin story for Dale

[stable wigeon]

combined with the fact the pistol has importance to rabbit

why else would it be important

no other reason i can think of

[azure bay]

I assume he needed to place it somewhere specifically in order to change one of his past life memories

[stable wigeon]

yes but why the pistol

i know that i agree

but im talking about what the pistol has to do with rabbits past lives

there isnt any other explanation i can think of....

unless pheasant

[azure bay]

it could do anything

[stable wigeon]

balance the substance of my past lives

[azure bay]

he could be the current or the original owner of that pistol

[stable wigeon]

but he balanced the substance of his pst life

i dont think ownership matters

hypothetically

[azure bay]

if he owned it at some point it could affect his life

[stable wigeon]

yes but he equally could not have owned it

it hardly makes a difference

[azure bay]

his connection to Pheasant is enough for me to digest his connection to the pistol. I'll ask no more questions until we get more info

[stable wigeon]

isnt that the point of theorizing lol

we dont know what we have the information to piece together or not

[azure bay]

Currently I don't see anything significant that would make the bigger picture more clear

[stable wigeon]

defining what balancing substance means

is the primary goal here is it not

well to me it is lol

idk 🤷‍♂️

[azure bay]

the substance of past lives was mentioned just several times

one of them is so different & misleading

[stable wigeon]

its a core idea of TWD institution

[azure bay]

debatable, what are your evidence?

[stable wigeon]

its related to samsara and how reincarnation works in RL

idk saw it on the website

[azure bay]

hmmm

can you be more specific?

just curious

which page exactly?

[stable wigeon]

im trynna find it

for one mentions memories of past lives several times

on research tab

and test tab

and in the interview

[azure bay]

past lives & their substance are related but not in an obvious way

Do they have mentions of substance specifically?

[stable wigeon]

no not that i can find at the moment

i may have been mistaken

although

past stimulus

i really believe this is directly related if not the same thing

stimulating memories

[azure bay]

past stimulus is more likely to be memories of the current life

[stable wigeon]

yes but stimulus

is a thing

possibly an object

idk lol it just fits with what i beliebe

[azure bay]

that always do believe me

the facts can be interpreted in almost any way

that's called a confirmation bias

a cognitive fallacy built in our brains

[stable wigeon]

yeah ik

i seem to fall into that trap

quite often

[azure bay]

that's why it's important to discuss

a stimulus could be literally anything

an image, a sound, a smell

in Bob's case objects might be the thing

but we're seemingly talking about psychiatry

is it even applicable to Rabbit's magic?

[stable wigeon]

ye ik it the word stimulated irrational excitement in me

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

[azure bay]

no one is perfect. especially me

[stable wigeon]

anyway speaking of substance

the mysterious word

if you could kindly scroll up to my tangent paragraph so i dont spam anymore

[azure bay]

I interpret it in a way like "substance of a book"

[stable wigeon]

about jungian psychology

[azure bay]

synonymous to "content"

BTW the relation of past life memories & brains are interesting to research

I wish I had time to read some smart articles

on how the memory is stored inside our brain

[stable wigeon]

jungian analysis mentioned on TWD website

this is an article on collective consciousness

"article" (wikipedia)

[azure bay]

however, IRL science may ruin all the magic of the series

[stable wigeon]

this isnt science

trust me

[azure bay]

no

[azure bay]

I'm speaking about this

[stable wigeon]

oh

but idk this archetype thing could make sense as i mentioned earlier

if we find the recurring symbols

[azure bay]

& that might be an interesting trail to follow

dam, I wish we've got some news on 20k B.C.

[stable wigeon]

lol wym

[azure bay]

a game kinda announced to be released in 2019

that did not happen

[stable wigeon]

seems to be happening alot recently huh

except not with RL

best dev team ever

[azure bay]

these guys also had problems with release delays

[stable wigeon]

o rlly

jk then lmao

[floral mauve]

emmm true, why didnt RL release any game during 2019

[stable wigeon]

ye that was a bummer

[azure bay]

they planned to release TWD

[stable wigeon]

for a sec i thought the series was over

[floral mauve]

the speed has reduced for some reason

[covert wyvern]

probably because the games theyre making now are of higher quality and effort.

[stable wigeon]

^^ thats true

[azure bay]

& also experiments

[covert wyvern]

not to mention the killing of flash player thing probably impacted production quite a bit.

[floral mauve]

true, but I mean in 2015 they are mad in making so many games

[stable wigeon]

whole different level than cube escape

wait CE was on flash?

[floral mauve]

yes

[azure bay]

everything still is

[floral mauve]

?

I thought they changed to unity

[azure bay]

TPW seems to be the 1st one on Unity

[covert wyvern]

ye all current games are written in Aktionskript.

TPW is the next step.

anyway

this has nothing to do with theories.

[floral mauve]

theories

why you guys are obsessed with pistol

[azure bay]

I'm more obsessed with Rabbit

[floral mauve]

I have a thought

we dont actually know whats in the box

the locked coin box

we only know its a pistol in changing the past

it could be false

[azure bay]

everything we see there is obviously present from the beginning (except for the coin)

if the pistol is an alteration, it was likely implemented before Dale entered the cube

[floral mauve]

but according to how memory works

Dale doesnt know whats in there

its like not possible at the begining

[azure bay]

we don't know how memory works

[floral mauve]

like you only know things happened from your prespective

[azure bay]

still, it's not confirmed

[floral mauve]

thats also called first person prespective

it could be anything in that box

[azure bay]

unless the memories recreate the whole scene

[floral mauve]

thats the problem isnt it

reality didnt change but memory changed

[azure bay]

I repeat, that's just your assumpltion

a fundamental one

that makes you interpret the whole series in a different way

[floral mauve]

true

but thats basic logic no?

memories are not certain

but the results are

Dale's parents are still died

[azure bay]

they could be exclusively in RL universe

if the authors wanted so

[floral mauve]

true but this didnt happen

his parents are still dead

[azure bay]

you can't know it

[floral mauve]

Dale only changed his mental state

in birthday

[azure bay]

you

[floral mauve]

nothing else

[azure bay]

can't

know

it

that's the thing you believe it
however we can't confirm it

[floral mauve]

its based on something we know for certain

[azure bay]

what do you know for certain?

[floral mauve]

the result showed that he didnt change the real past

[azure bay]

no, you just assume so

[floral mauve]

thats contradicting isnt it

we have to be certain about it

[azure bay]

retroactive reality bending is a thing is some fiction

[floral mauve]

so does that mean we cant be certain about anything in this universe?

[azure bay]

correct

[floral mauve]

plot still exists

[azure bay]

most of it for sure

yet we can't know the original ideas
& really don't have to

[covert wyvern]

ye the plot exists: a detective investigates a weird murder, lake stuff happens

the rest is up for grabs

[floral mauve]

[azure bay]

all we do are interpretations

the narration is so vague that the author has almost no affection on our way of reading it

we become the author

& that's cool in a way

we can create different versions of the same story

& learn different lessons from them

[floral mauve]

thats the problem, too vague

everyone can just invent theories

[covert wyvern]

yes and that's exactly what this channel si for

[floral mauve]

I guess flying fish is a thing

[covert wyvern]

[floral mauve]

[covert wyvern]

but of course, some theories are likelier than others and not shitposts

like your flying fish.

[floral mauve]

[azure bay]

flying fish is a thing. We've seen it. Calling it a god is unlikely

[floral mauve]

thats why I changed my phrase

[azure bay]

I also agree on 2 different fishes being caught in inappropriate traps because they flew in there

[floral mauve]

(anyway, this is another day got crushed by nowherecaw ) gonna study

bye

[azure bay]

you don't have to feel crushed if we're talking about changeable past. I don't say you are wrong. I just say that I also consider the opposite. You could do the same & learn more interesting stories than just single 1

[royal notch]

I read only now, but i have to agree with Black Jesus: the massacre has been real and it hasn't been prevented, otherwise the rest of the world wouldn't have know about It.

In Paradox, it's on the newspaper.

[real lantern]

Yeah, but paradox is on dale's mind, isnt it?

[azure bay]

Paradox is before Dale's return to his birthday

I'm pretty sure about that

[royal notch]

Me too, but if Mr Owl wants to make him think to had had another past, then why first let him seeing the newspaper?

[azure bay]

Paradox is not about Owl wanting Dale to live in delusions

[royal notch]

But you said that Mr Owl wants to make him believe in a false past.

[azure bay]

It's either misunderstanding or a completely different theory

if Owl wanted Dale to live in delusions & had a complete control over Paradox then there wouldn't probably be any newspaper

[royal notch]

That's what i wanted to say.

[azure bay]

both ifs are assumptions & as a bunch they don't correspond the reality

therefore Owl either doesn't want Dale to live in delusions

or he has no complete control over Paradox

or even both

[royal notch]

I misregarded then, i had understood that Mr Owl wanted to convive Dale to have had a different past. But that wasn't working with the newspaper in Paradox. So, my apologies if i got It wrong.

[azure bay]

you don't have to apologize. We all make mistakes & we usually need someone to uncover them. I encourage you question anything you see here until you understand how it was reached.

I'd really like someone to see my potential mistakes

@royal notch by the way, I guess I remember what I could call delusions

[royal notch]

What do you mean?

[azure bay]

the point of misunderstanding

Assuming that the past is rigid, we get both Laura & Dale fixing just the memories of their. As seen in Season, a single alteration may affect not only one memory but all of them (like the cactus growing). As seen in Birthday, the owner's of these memories attitude towards them may also change (black cube turning white)

They do live in delusions of false past, as you understood me correctly

but that wasn't the main goal of Mr. Owl

especially in Paradox

[royal notch]

I know, that's why i replied.

I understood the contrair.

[azure bay]

how exactly did you understand that?

(just to be clear)

[royal notch]

I have misregarded, i had understood that you said that Mr Owl wanted to convince Dale to have had another past. I don't think that (and you neither, as i see), that's why i replied before.

[azure bay]

ok

BTW you may remember that I prefer to believe the past being actually changeable. I just also want to consider the opposite. That lets me constructively participate in more discussions & create more interpretations of the series

[royal notch]

I also believe to the changeable past.

[azure bay]

for some reason I was thinking about you otherwise

Is it just me or you've changed your mind?

[royal notch]

I know why.

It's because i believe in only one timeline.

If i change the past, i alter all of It.

[azure bay]

& what about Birthday & Seasons?

[royal notch]

Seasons i'm not sure, but birthday isn't real.

[azure bay]

for what reason?

Birthday

[royal notch]

Many things, first of all Dale's experience Is important for his future. Then, for me, the grandfather isn't real (not remembered in Paradox), and Is strange how he can remenber something never happened, and he's so similar to Mr Crow's disguise.

[azure bay]

There are many alternative views on this that I remember

[royal notch]

I know. But now i have to go, can we continue later?

[azure bay]

I'll just give you them to read later

[floral mauve]

to be honest, doesnt changeable past feel terrible? even its a bit subjective

whats done has been done

you cant bring dead ppl back to live

thats like mocking at samsara

[azure bay]

Dale's grandpa could be:

• Crow for real
• Just an asset reuse with minor changes

Dale's grandpa could be absent in Paradox because:

• There was no seat for him in the room
• He wasn't that important to Dale
• Dale did not remember him (also would explain why Dale didn't recognize the old crow as him)

Dale's changes of Birthday could be:

• Not that significant to change his career path
• Be written into existence retroactively (e.g. Dale just made them exist without major changes of the world)

[azure bay]

"the past is never dead", "all that you touch you change", "change the past"

[floral mauve]

if Mr Crow didnt lie in the first place

they arent god

they cant do those things till they enter the final stage of samsara

[azure bay]

in Seasons it's more likely to be Laura's words than Crow's

[floral mauve]

some catchphrase of the good old days with Aldous

[azure bay]

and some are brand new

whats more, this voice is associated more with prets than with Mr. Crow

[floral mauve]

if they can just adjust anything that happens, tbh, it kinda ruin this piece

[azure bay]

unless it takes a great effort

[floral mauve]

there must be a plot for it

also, many other works of other ppl typically shown that changing the past as the goal of the protagonist

but it doesnt matter

[floral mauve]

I doubt blue cube actually works in reality

its more like hallucination

[azure bay]

then it has no rights to exist in reality

but it does exist indeed

[floral mauve]

true but I am more doubt of its function

it does not necessarily change the reality of the past

since Dale's parents are still died and Laura is also still died

[azure bay]

that's just your assumption

[floral mauve]

[azure bay]

excuse me, your conclusion

& you try to bend the facts towards it

[floral mauve]

the only person that can convince you is the developer of the game

[floral mauve]

I didnt

its the reality

[azure bay]

what reality?

[floral mauve]

the result

we saw in Mill and Cave her dead body

and Dale is still traumatized for what he has experienced

cant we have at least something be certain in this game?

not everything is changeable, there is a main plot and something certain

in this universe

[azure bay]

1. every appearance or mention of the blue cube is about the time
2. Laura could cancel her death in many ways. Also without hurting the plot
3. Dale is definitely NOT traumatized after Birthday no matter if his changes are real or not. That's the whole point of his journey

[floral mauve]

wtf but we saw his psychological state in paradox

[azure bay]

Paradox is before his return to Birthday

otherwise it makes no sense

[floral mauve]

but that makes the reality true isnt it

his parents are died

he is traumatized

before experiencing Birthday

maybe he got calmed after Birthday

after his journey

but what happened is happened

[azure bay]

that's the whole point. The chosen one has to be a traumatized person that can overcome themselves & change their mental state (possibly alongside with the reality that makes their deed even more epic)

[floral mauve]

change their mental state doesnt mean past will be changed

overcome something is to leave his trauma behind

[azure bay]

it also doesn't mean otherwise

however, changing the past guarantees changing the mental state.

[floral mauve]

yes

thats true

whats been shown is that his mind has overcome something

he has reached a higher point of.....I forgot, something Mr Owl said in Theatre

[azure bay]

that was his another deed

another step

[floral mauve]

ohh, higher consciousness

[azure bay]

it doesn't have to be connected to Birthday

at least directly

[floral mauve]

he has overcome his past trauma

his mind is more complete

not the broken mind in paradox

[azure bay]

all you say doesn't mean that he can't also change the reality

[floral mauve]

[azure bay]

I'm serious

[floral mauve]

so you mean the world rotates around Dale?

[azure bay]

probably not

[floral mauve]

just because a mentally illed person cured from his past trauma doesnt change the fact that he is still an orphan

ooof

[azure bay]

that depends on a way of curing

We definitely have magic involved

Once again

I don't say that you are wrong

[floral mauve]

the magic must be logical

[azure bay]

It depends on fiction

[floral mauve]

a piece must contain some logic to explain itself to convince its audience

[azure bay]

unfortunately, it's not always the case. Some authors may bend their rules an a go

& some people love it

[floral mauve]

it is true since the author also needs to explain how the logic goes

like elixir and cubes

to create a new set of logic or settings

for a piece

[azure bay]

& usually it contradicts the other parts of the lore

I really want you to understand 1 major thing. RL lore is not the finest one. It could even be so on purpose so we can discuss interpretations of ours

All I tell don't mean you are wrong

I mean that I'm also right

[floral mauve]

[azure bay]

we both are in one way or another

[floral mauve]

I am dead inside

nvm

I need to empty my mind

also studying

btw tmr is my English exam

(sorry Damy for off the topic)

[covert wyvern]

@floral mauve We've been over this

[floral mauve]

I know

I know

[covert wyvern]

Don't (sorry) if you know you're wrong.

you will catch a mute for this next time.

[floral mauve]

ok

[stable wigeon]

in surreal art it seems to me that questions are more intriguing than definitive answers

if we had all the answers i feel it is at risk of losing the interest of the audience

actually thats for all creative writing tbh but more so with fantasy/surreal

imo

[royal notch]

OK, i'm back. Thinking about what you've written, i'll try to eliminate some ipothesis. First, at the beginning i thought too that the grandfather could have been an asset reused, but i tend to eliminate that since in the following game, released not so much time after, to present Aldous has been created a new profile. Then why don't make one a bit different from the old of the mill? Second, i don't think that the missing seat is a problem so big to avoid his apparition. In Paradox we have other 2 references of the birthday, in the mind game in chapter 1 there are only the parents also in here, and in the present mind in chapter 2, during the "emotions test" (that strange machine giving input to classify by love, fear and confusion), 2 input of love were the parents, always without the grandfather. Third, it could be that Dale didn't have so much affect with him, but i don't think is even possible forget a parent dying in a such way, even if it was his worst enemy. If Dale has really been hurt by this experience, he can't just remove a part of it because that part was a bit bad (i mean, why don't remove ALL OF IT?). Finally, my thoughts about the whole episode Is the following: some elements we see in the game aren't real, like the grandfather (being Mr Crow, to controll Dale's moves), Jakob's letter (why the mother should make his son read an unknown man saying that that day will be the darkest of his life?) and the phone calling. The second part of the memory didn't happen, the present could have been a book, a little car, who knows. The incident had been reported on the news obviousoly. Then, in the elevator, Dale (still whithout any memories, after the incident at the cabin) revive that memory as in the game.

[stable wigeon]

i think theyre real

thats a different topic though

if we can disregard things as real like that we have no definitive way of knowing what is real and what isnt

[royal notch]

If the birthday has been real, then why the newspaper in Paradox?

[stable wigeon]

wym

oh that was before

that was before he went back in time

paradox i believe is taking place in dales head at the bottom of the lake

in birthday he is on his way up from the bottom

[royal notch]

I agree, but still doesn't mean that the past has been really changed.

[stable wigeon]

indeed

again we arrive at this stalemate lol

[azure bay]

Forgetting traumatizing experience is easier than you think. It's called repressed memories

[stable wigeon]

was the past really changed? or was it just the memories? i feel we just are beating a dead horse here

[azure bay]

You seem to be thinking with chronoclasms, aren't you?

[royal notch]

Definition of "chronosclasm"...?😅

[stable wigeon]

oh yeah theres this

[azure bay]

It means time being rigid. If you travel to the past your arrival was somehow documented

[stable wigeon]

fair point this is where i believe in that plastic history thing

[azure bay]

Probably, I explained it poorly

A good example

There is a hypothesis that Titanic has drowned because of too many time travelers wanted to witness her doing so

[royal notch]

I don't think Dale travelled trhought time, he just recalled a memory, but modified.

There hadn't been any travel trhough time.

If i remember about my first time going to bike, i don't really go at that moment.

[azure bay]

That's how it works IRL. In RL universe the rules may be different.

I believe Seasons actually changing the past in one way or another. There is literally no reason to lie to us since it was one of the earliest games & Birthday has a ton of similarities with Seasons

[stable wigeon]

and keep in mind the lake is where these memories are when dale goes back

he isnt going back in time in his mind

his memories are in the lake

[royal notch]

If in RL i just need to recall my past and change It to be happy, then the whole series shouldn't exist. Examples: Aldous can avoid William death and have the formula, Albert can prevent to have his scar and avoid to being a psicopath, Dale would have done this work with Birthday ages before, Bob could imagine that Laura never went away and avoid depression and missed suicide...

[stable wigeon]

you dont just recall it like i said

the lake is the key here

[azure bay]

In order to enter the cube you need at least extract it

There also could be the rule to further prevent everyone from doing so

For example, being corrupted (Or semi-corrupted in Dale's case)

[royal notch]

OK, then. The same thing could been the guests' corrupted souls in this way!

[azure bay]

& here we have Rabbit

[royal notch]

Why not the others??

[azure bay]

Not figured out yet

[stable wigeon]

and also

[azure bay]

It's not a common knowledge y'know

[stable wigeon]

are the CS's cubes? if so how do cubes go into other cubes?

[royal notch]

I know, but why Rabbit and not the others? I mean, if that brainless of DAVID has decided to start this trip, why the other never thought about that?

[royal notch]

I don't think so. In seasons we play as a corrupted soul travelling throught memories.

[azure bay]

He could be not the first one. If the songstress is indeed new Pheasant's form she seems to be more successful than him

& luck could also be a decisive factor

[royal notch]

In that case there shouldn't be her corrupted soul under here.

[azure bay]

Unless they all started their journeys long after 1972

Or not so long

[stable wigeon]

well they may be different types but that doesnt matter

just because a CS is a manifestation of a cube doesnt mean it cant go into other ones

wait

maybe it does lol

if they are only manifestations of a specific memory then how do they know of other memories of that life or previous lives

[azure bay]

Cubes don't always contain just a single memory

[stable wigeon]

wait huh

fr?

but still they cant go into themselves

[azure bay]

In The Mill Laura's cubes were depicted to contain many if not all of them

Another thing is that the souls are not just a collection of memories

[stable wigeon]

yes ik

but it seems like the CS's of hotel kind of are

[royal notch]

If the guests can solve their problems in this way, then why the enlighteneds are searching "the one who could stop them"?

(letter in the mill)

[azure bay]

Otherwise it could take much longer, considering prets from samsara

[royal notch]

No, wait, didn't you said that the corrupted souls have to wait a lot to change stage?

[azure bay]

I have no idea how long

In RL it could also be an eternity

Since it's not copycatting samsara rules

[royal notch]

In this case, It would be useful to them using the memories in the way you've talked right now.

[azure bay]

It would. However it requires knowledge & leaving a comfort zone

[royal notch]

If It would, then why the enlighteneds would stop them?

[azure bay]

Do they?

[royal notch]

In the letter in the mill.

"I think i could have found the one who could stop them.".

[azure bay]

Stop them from terrorizing the lake

No idea on the means

[royal notch]

I know. But why are they losing their time in this way, if they can use their memories as you said?

[azure bay]

Who loses?

[royal notch]

The corrupted souls.

[azure bay]

The corrupted souls are furious & ignorant

They are unlikely to take a breath & think a way out

Unlikely but not impossible

[royal notch]

Caroline did that, She only needed some months maximum. But the guests are dead by almost a century.

[azure bay]

Caroline had knowledge

& a goal

Plus, we don't really know how long ago she was burnt

The topic is vague as hell

[royal notch]

I don't think so much, Nicholas wrote talking about not so much time before.

[azure bay]

Nicholas had actually reasons to lie. And Caroline proposed herself as a sacrifice 15 years before Jacob's arrival

[royal notch]

True.

[azure bay]

I have no idea what actually happened

You may be right

[stable wigeon]

by the way from what do people get this terrorizing the lake thing

[royal notch]

Laura and Dale got attacked.

[stable wigeon]

did laura?

[royal notch]

And seemingly many other people.

[stable wigeon]

so wait

[royal notch]

The Lake.

[stable wigeon]

you mean to say their targets are random?

[royal notch]

I think so.

[azure bay]

Strangely enough Vanderbooms were seemingly never attacked by CS

[stable wigeon]

ig thats the most logical explanation

but still i dont like coming to that conclusion i always like trying to find motives if i can

[azure bay]

Motives for CS attacks?

[royal notch]

They're not right above the Lake.

[stable wigeon]

yes

theyre right next to it

[royal notch]

Not like the cabin!

Or the chapel!

[stable wigeon]

the cabin is on shore i think

but i see wym

u right

no the cabin isnt is it

[azure bay]

Prets do suffer by definition. These ones especially seem to act like vengeful spirits.

[stable wigeon]

yes but that doesnt mean they dont have motives. very irrationally hateful? yes but still

idk lol

[azure bay]

Laura was hostile

Bob was hostile

Many CS seem to be

[stable wigeon]

yes i agree

but they are hostile due to their strong hate and such

and both laura and bob were hostile to the player because the player extracted their memories and made them a CS

[royal notch]

Bob seems a strange exception. In the Institute, he Is really chilled out.

[stable wigeon]

laura it was aldous bob it was dale

yea thats weird

it seems he switches between CS and human

[azure bay]

I'm more surprised why he didn't escape

[royal notch]

Exactly!!!

[stable wigeon]

he wanted his memories back perhaps?

[royal notch]

And why he didn't attack Sarah during the check-up??

[azure bay]

I'm not sure if he wanted anything.

[stable wigeon]

he wanted to remember i thoughr

[azure bay]

It seemed to be Grant not Sarah

Or Clark

[royal notch]

Anyway why not?

[stable wigeon]

and according to jungian psychology he needed order

he was mentally unstable cause he didnt have identities

[azure bay]

That's a good question

[stable wigeon]

but thats a bit of a stretch

still check this out i find interesting

it is the only thing so far that i can connect to what depression and disorders have to do with RL