#🤔｜theories

1 messages · Page 101 of 1

astral frost
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Well

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At this point we could say they wanted William back only to extract his memories about the elixir, once he was Human again

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But what about Caroline?

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That would fit more

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I'm starting to think that

azure bay
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I mean if they get anyone of these 2 alive they'd have a relieable source of the elixir

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& Dale wouldn't be needed as much

astral frost
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Agree

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But Dale is needed for another reason

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Remember the book in the Cave

azure bay
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I don't remember anything specific there about Dale's future role

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I only know that he's meant to get the full elixir, reach the enlightenment, replace Owl at some point & fix the CS problem

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Have I missed smth?

astral frost
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No no

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Wait

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Laura is needed for her memories about the Elixir

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Dale is like an external element

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But he's fundamental to create the golden cube

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Which is based on the elixir, indeed

azure bay
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Or creates one

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Or is one

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But why do they need a golden cube if they could get their hands on the old-fashioned liquid to maintain themselves?

astral frost
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The point is

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The golden cube and the elixir aren't the same thing

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I'm starting to think that the golden cube is something more than the full elixir

azure bay
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For now we don't really know

astral frost
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Agree

azure bay
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I tend to see the same golden cube as the result of Caroline's formula

astral frost
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But Caroline created the elixir

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Nothing more

azure bay
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She did create nothing physical

astral frost
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Yes

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She created a strange formula

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Based on elements from her memories

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She doesn't create the elixir for real

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Just a way for her son to save his life by reaching the enlightenment

azure bay
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As there is nothing materialistic in her elixir, it could take a liquid form as well as a cubic one. We can't see it in the end.

Her scheme clearly features the cube with every ingredient going into it.

Dale's golden cube is also created with Laura's memories of William's ingredients.

So I expect the 2 cases being more similar than they seem to be

astral frost
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Interesting

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I should go to bed right now dude

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But it was a nice conversation!

azure bay
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I appreciate it as well
Thx

astral frost
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Goodnight😄

azure bay
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I want to read more of your thoughts next time. Goodnight

main yoke
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Is the whole chat filled by 2 ppl ?

covert wyvern
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nah there's more, we just have a few very hard working regulars

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😉

lament oracle
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So okay. Gonna copy-paste some stuff over from spoilers to here because its actually relevant here.
I just finished Birthday and things seem to be coming together.

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The shadows are the guests at the Rusty Lake Hotel that Harvey killed, and through reincarnation (I assume similar to whoever was in Samsara room), anthropomorphic bird Harvey became regular bird Harvey after getting killed by the shadows in the secret scene of Birthday.
Laura, I'm guessing, became a shadow before the start of Seasons, and time travelled back to kill herself before this could happen... Except that super didn't work, as her corpse was able to remanifest as a shadow due to the machinery in the Mill.
... And also I'm guessing this shadow memory shit happened to Van Gogh as well, and the process of turning him into a shadow was what prompted his suicide.

hollow comet
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agreed with everything except about Laura, I think she was trying to reverse the corruption, not kill herself

lament oracle
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The thing that has me thinking she killed herself is that scene where you get the password. The game has you living in fear of this shadow you see kill Laura in that scene, until it reveals you ARE the shadow. Then, when you beat the game, you get the added reveal that you were also Laura.

hollow comet
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I mean she did kill herself, which is why she's dead in the Mill, but in Seasons she's trying to reverse it.

manic cedar
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I don't know how far in the series you are, so I don't wonna spoil too much

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But there's definitely a lot of reincarnation going on

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And all (?) the animal people are reincarnations of people people.

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In the seasons though it looks like Laura is going back to stop her suicide

azure bay
manic cedar
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That makes sense

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When does he say that?

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What I meant is that for all the guests and Crow and Owl we actually know who they were in their previous lives

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Same with Laura

azure bay
# manic cedar When does he say that?

the Theatre as a whole is all about that. Each & every play is about a certain samsara wheel segment & all of them are about the past and the present and the future at the same time

azure bay
manic cedar
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Yeah, that just makes me wonder if there's more animal people running around, just having semi-normal society with semi-normal jobs

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Or do all the animal people work for mr Owl?

azure bay
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I expect them to have one

azure bay
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Mr. Deer & Mrs. Pigeon both seemed to be independent researchers

manic cedar
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Since it looks like the Hotel caters to both people and animals, is it possible, that in general the animal people masquarade as normal people? Like Crow does as a barman, or Owl as a psychiatrist?

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Because if not, then what is Boar an ambassador to? And an ambassador of what?

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Are there many animal-people countries?

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Someone upthread pointed out, that Rabbit seems to be working as a magician for normal people parties, implying that he can pass for a human too

azure bay
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we don't know. I guess, they could both hide among the people while having their private places (like mages in Harry Potter universe) or being completely separated

azure bay
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he had a certain goal back then

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to get the pistol from his past life & escape his state

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btw escaping one's asura state seems weird for me

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usually you are willing to become asura & not stop being one

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so he is likely not to be asura in BD

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he looks like masked human more in Paradox

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but humans don't also escape their state like that

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so he might be an unusual CS

manic cedar
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Well he should be a corrupted soul, since it's after hotel

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Since they became corrupted in 1893 (I think, whenever hotel takes place), BD is 1939 and he's still corrupted in like 1972

azure bay
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We've seen Rabbit's CS even before his death. So he may reappear at any point in time

manic cedar
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When was that?

azure bay
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he randomly appears outside Mr. Rabbit's window

manic cedar
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Right

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Eh, a bit like the shadow of mr Crow in Paradise

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more of a premonition than a real presence

azure bay
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maybe

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maybe not

manic cedar
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There's also the hand that appears after a rabbit dies in Paradise, looking like it belongs to mr Rabbit, with a playing card and everything.

azure bay
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that's a different story

manic cedar
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If that's even canon and not just an easter egg

azure bay
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it's not corrupted at all

manic cedar
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Yeah, but by then David is still alive

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So it's before he got reborn as mr Rabbit

azure bay
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I guess it's a little clue indicating that the central character of the chapter (David) is to become Mr. Rabbit

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he was terrorizing the island as a fly-man back then

manic cedar
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It could also just be The Hand

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Which I just don't get at all

azure bay
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like Margaret hiding inside a cauldron copying Mrs. Pigeon in her hot tub

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like an actual Boar appearing during the chapter where we're fulfilling Gerard's hunger

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like the same Gerard directly copying the Boar toilet scene a bit later

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these are some extra evidence in favor of Eilanders=guests theory

manic cedar
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Well he even keeps saying Boar

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That, and they all wear the masks

silver hemlock
# azure bay these are some extra evidence in favor of Eilanders=guests theory

Well yeah because at the end of paradise we see the eilanders put on the animal masks of the hotel guests and that the paradise island eventually became the location for the hotel so the ritual that we see in paradise just keeps on repeating itself. And after the ritual Jakob becomes mr owl after completing the ritual the correct way

azure bay
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he was foretelling the future of the island

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that may do nothing with Eilanders

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& the masks are not convincing for some

silver hemlock
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I mean aren’t the masks like a direct hint towards that though? Why wouldn’t that be convincing?

azure bay
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you know, they are not, I'm shocked here as well

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but that's understandable

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for example, I did not think Rabbits from Hotel and BD being the one & TWD Manager being Mr. Owl until I've got some extra evidence

silver hemlock
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are they the same people as in paradise or are they different people who had the same fate come upon them because the rabbit would be David eilander who also was the person who seemed to try something similar? (This is a little bit stretched) but what if when David attempted to become the fly he was attempting to try to take a shortcut to the main goal

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It’s a little bit of a stretch

azure bay
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The fly was a part of the plague

manic cedar
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I think it's pretty much confirmed that they are the same people, by the fact that mr Rabbit is called D. Eilander in the phonebook in Paradox

azure bay
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and presumably the plagues were unleashed by the lake

azure bay
vivid bridge
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I think stuff like Mr. Boar being an ambassador shows that it wasn't the original plan that they are Mr. Owls family and it was retconned

manic cedar
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If it wasn't planned in hotel, it was definitely planned in paradise

vivid bridge
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yeah

azure bay
vivid bridge
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William reincarnating into Laura is very different from people ascending to a higher state of consciousness

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I don't know why you are comparing them

azure bay
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from samsara point of view they should be all the same

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but if not

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what is the memory?

vivid bridge
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i don't follow?

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what do you mean

azure bay
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what is the memory in RL universe?

silver hemlock
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Well I think that what we saw in samsara room was the mind of Laura same as seasons

azure bay
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CE Theatre tells more about samsara than SR

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Theatre tells us that you may become anyone

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a hybrid

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an animal

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a human

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a CS

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& every single of these states has its segment in the samsara wheel

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& according to Buddhism, every state is equally trapped inside this circle of life

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memories are the roughly the cubes

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that are contained inside our brains

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they are preserved after the rebirth

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but many still don't remember their past

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& instead of calling everything retcon I rather try to explain why some of the guests don't act like Eilanders

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Plus, the good scientific theory tends to find a common law for every case & not individual exceptions

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& even ignoring all of these there is no reason for Mr. Boar not to be an ambassador in his new life

silver hemlock
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I’m not sure what to even say after all of that

vivid bridge
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I do have a theory that the guests are not the eilanders

azure bay
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@silver hemlock BTW we are currently witnessing the one who is not convinced by the masks. Let us see if his picture is better than ours

silver hemlock
manic cedar
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I'll be curious to hear

silver hemlock
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Well I’m still waiting but I guess he stopped typing

vivid bridge
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i've gotta work on my theory but i'll come bac

nocturne yarrow
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I don't know if my thoughts would be welcome mid-conversation, but I also think the guests aren't the eilanders- instead, I think they're reincarnations of them, or just random people who were assigned the same animal-based roles for the sake of "recreating paradise".

azure bay
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for me that's almost the same

silver hemlock
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Yeah I think they could be reincarnations of the eilanders who are continuing the ritual that happened on paradise island

azure bay
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by continuing

silver hemlock
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Or not continuing but taking on the roles of the eilanders

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And their parts in the rituals

azure bay
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I'm confused even more. Could you please explain?

silver hemlock
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Sure

azure bay
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what was happening to Eilanders, according to you?

silver hemlock
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So I believe that the eilanders were the beginning of the entire rusty lake storyline (obviously). Now they were originally attempting to do the ritual to summon mr owl or make one of their own people take on the role of him (they built the giant owl statue). Once Jakob had completed the ritual by surviving or completing the ten plagues, he was given the role of mr owl and his role was to make the other eilanders become their animal reincarnations by giving them their masks and in doing that the ritual had been complete. Once that was done someone or something created the hotel in the same location as paradise island. The reincarnations had their own work to do while this was happening to their island (the rabbits job was to give the detective the memory of his family being killed by killing his family). Once they all finished their jobs they returned to their island and saw that their island was now the hotel. They still called it their home so they stayed there (we don’t know the identity of Harvey yet) but Harvey might’ve been assigned by mr owl to do a similar ritual as he had performed on paradise island

nocturne yarrow
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I agree with the general timeline, but I disagree on a few points, one of the main ones being the reincarnation's knowledge of their former home. Based on the random jobs and backstories that the hotel guests have, I don't think they actually knew about the hotel or what it previously was. It seems more likely to me that the Eilanders were "reincarnated" in the sense that their spirits- tied to specific animal symbols- went into random people that Mr. Owl then tracked down and had murdered at the hotel for the ritual.

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Like, why would Mr. Owl invite Mr. Boar with a letter talking about treating addictions if Mr. Boar already knew about the island and the ritual?

silver hemlock
azure bay
nocturne yarrow
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I still most certainly don't think they're the exact same people- there isn't much reason supplied in the story for the eilanders to lose their memory and pick up random jobs away from the lake.

azure bay
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I see them as the same entities but not the same personalities

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and as we go further in the time, at least Mr. Rabbit rediscovers his past name

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maybe something more than that

silver hemlock
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I mean even if they weren’t the same entities we wouldn’t have too much to prove that point

azure bay
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unless we get enough examples

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of something being vaguely similar & turning out to be the one in the end

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like Mr. Owl & TWD Manager

silver hemlock
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Maybe the next game will give us more insight to the story of the eilanders but I’m not sure because the picture they showed was of Albert so I don’t think so

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Oh yeah I’m assuming he was their to study people who are becoming or are already corrupt soules

azure bay
silver hemlock
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So they might explain mr rabbit or all of the reincarnations but probably mr rabbit

azure bay
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The Lady of The Lake singer seems to be Ms. Pheasant in the past

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they have tons of vibes in common

silver hemlock
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They just seem to have that same somewhat rich snobby personality

azure bay
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no there are more

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the same dress

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the same music theme

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the same hat

silver hemlock
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Oh wait- oh yeah how’d I forget about that

azure bay
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the substance of her past lifes is also seen in the chapel of Case 23 alongside Pheasant's skull

silver hemlock
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I might just replay the games to see if there are any other hints to any other animals

nocturne yarrow
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"past lives" seems to hint that instead of being an older version of Ms. Pheasant, maybe she's a current one- like, the newest person to show up with the Pheasant archetype.
Considering how the "Lady of the Lake" has shown up most in the games set in modern day, she could even be working with Mr. Owl.

azure bay
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I rather tend to think about the soul

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she is definitely working with Mr. Owl

vivid bridge
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Made a theory thingy about something that always bothered me: The window ghost in Mr. Rabbits room

📎 rabbittheory.png
azure bay
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lol

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I'm using those whiskers to prove time travel & evolution of Rabbit's CS

vivid bridge
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sure

azure bay
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like it's having its own Dale-ish journey

vivid bridge
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just putting this out here: We actually haven't seen any real time travel in these games, only inside memories

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so I don't know how likely it is that there is time travel involved

azure bay
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Samsara room shows us William briefly visiting his future

vivid bridge
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that's true

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but its not real time travel, its future sight

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which Ida also has

azure bay
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for everything else I admit we either have memories or something uncertain

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& as my past experience tells me, there is a way to disproof any theory

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because all of these are based on a subjective interpretation

covert wyvern
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they sure are lol

azure bay
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I'd like to tell something on the blue cube

silver hemlock
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But most theories are based on educated guesses from information that we get from a source (in this case the games)

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Ok go ahead

azure bay
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a statement "blue cubes work exclusively inside memories" is more complicated than "blue cubes work", if we decide to operate with Occham's razor

vivid bridge
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blue cubes are the bane of my existence, they make no sense

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the fact that The Cave suddenly pretends as if Laura created a blue cube even though we never see that and how it doesn't even make sense

azure bay
vivid bridge
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yeah

azure bay
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I'd recommend you starting creating multiple bigger pictures. That will increase your chances of being right

vivid bridge
manic cedar
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But if blue cubes aren't actually part of the story...

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Only something that appears in memories...

tawny tiger
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Blue Cubes could be just someone saying "what if?"

manic cedar
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Why is Harvey alive?

azure bay
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the blue cube is real in The Cave

manic cedar
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He can only be alive if Laura uses the blue cube to change the past

tawny tiger
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The Cave was... fun.

manic cedar
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Meaning that we actually do have to take time travel into account

nocturne yarrow
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I suppose you'd have to ask if Harvey dies after all the stuff happening at "current time" in the games

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keep in mind that some parts of Seasons are after what's currently occuring with Dale

manic cedar
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Well he dies in 1971 and is still alive in 1972

azure bay
manic cedar
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Well, when was Laura corrupted is a separate question

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Actually wait

silver hemlock
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This means that the cubes aren’t memories but instead gateways to re-live them

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Otherwise we wouldn’t have been able to save Harvey

manic cedar
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The thing that bothers me the most about the timeline we have

azure bay
manic cedar
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When does the Mill take place?

tawny tiger
azure bay
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The Mill is shown to take place in summer 1972 on the official yet outdated timeline scheme

manic cedar
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Because it looks to be happening at the same time as case 23 part one

azure bay
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but we don't know if it starts in 1972

manic cedar
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But also at the same time as Case 23 part 3 or 4, with dale outside the chapel

silver hemlock
# azure bay may I get a bigger picture?

In seasons we have to kill Harvey to get a picture piece but then we go back in time to save him so we can get the flower. The same thing happens with dale where he relives arguably the most traumatic event in his life and he was able to change it so his parents and grandpa weren’t killed. They were only able to change this with access to the cubes where they are sent to that specific moment where they can change what ever they want if they choose to do so

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So basically limited time travel because it’s only that memory

azure bay
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ok, here we see the things in the sameway

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not everyone agrees on it

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but currently we're talking about 2 major conflicts of The Mill

manic cedar
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So I always thought that the Mill just actually spans like a year or so

azure bay
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I have 2 examples

manic cedar
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Well Crow is also present at the theatre when Dale visits, which takes place between Case 23 1 and 2, also confirmed in WD

azure bay
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& he looks differently then

manic cedar
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So he gotta leave the mill sometime when the mill is taking place

silver hemlock
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Yeah That’s why mr crow wasn’t with his wife (as we see in a picture in the attic of the mill) because he was going to find dale and row him to the cabin

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On the lake

azure bay
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before Dale appears outside

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Laura's memories were extracted afterwards

silver hemlock
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But didn’t we just say that time flows differently near the lake? So it wouldn’t have been a time gap?

azure bay
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at least yet

silver hemlock
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actually going back on what I said mr crow couldn’t have been gone because we play as dale during the mill

azure bay
silver hemlock
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Wait do we play as mr crow or dale during the mill (this is the one thing that I’ve never been sure about)

vague imp
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Mr.Crow

azure bay
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mr. Crow it is

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I assume we don't really understand what's happening in The Mill

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hmmm

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I think I know the point of possible major time skip

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if we assume that The Mill starts in 1971, then we get Laura possibly spending several month inside grandpa's clock

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is it possible?

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it probably is

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William's corpse was also seen spending as long inside seemingly the same clock

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so maybe this clock is able to conserve its contents

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from rotting it is in our case

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the other possibility is The Mill actually happening all in 1972, as the official timeline scheme states

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then we see The Mill happening in a way out a time

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Laura teleports there from 1971

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Dale communicates with The Mill from 1971

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But teleports there from 1972

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The other possible evidence - Dale's call to the same mill in Paradox

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but here I need to explain another little detail

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Mr. Crow's voice

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My guess that it sounds so strangely because of his mouth being sealed

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& after we see the strings being cut his voice becomes normal in the later games

manic cedar
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But he also has normal voice in Theatre, after the phonecall, but before the cutting of strings

azure bay
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but as we call the mill number in Paradox, we hear once again that strange voice

azure bay
silver hemlock
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I guess that someone sewed his mouth shut so he wouldn’t tell someone something

manic cedar
azure bay
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or another illusion

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that's not the topic I'm currently covering

nocturne yarrow
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I feel like the strange voice may have been used because the devs wanted to make it weird and mysterious without hiring a VA

azure bay
nocturne yarrow
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ah, got it

manic cedar
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Well, but are we to assume that someone sewed his mouth before he calls dale in C23, then he cuts it for his barman appearence in Theatre (and WD), and then he saws it back again for Dale to cut in C23 part 3?

lament oracle
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Okay. So though the game is sorta framed around this family tree component, I don't think Roots is communicating that you're playing as the different family members. I'm pretty sure you're specifically playing as William. Whose spirit is just like, jumping across the timeline to interfere.

manic cedar
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Well, sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't

nocturne yarrow
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Yep, that's exactly what's happening (at least I think)

azure bay
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anyways, as we call the mill in Paradox (from the late 1972) we still hear that Twin Peaks voice of Mr. Crow

nocturne yarrow
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and it is possible to play Roots in chronological order, so he isn't necessarily "jumping around the timeline"

lament oracle
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Well, I mainly say that cause I just unlocked Roots' postgame.

azure bay
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so The Mill could take phone calls both from the past & the future

manic cedar
azure bay
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:c

lament oracle
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Could be he's just taking them from everyone else.

manic cedar
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For me it was just that he observes and influences, but most of the actual actions are done by family members

azure bay
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Do I need to show another example of the temporal anomalies around the lake or none is interested anymore?

manic cedar
nocturne yarrow
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It was a little vague to me how involved William's ghost was in all the events of Roots, but I always though of it as the family members just accepting that some mysterious invisible force helped them out with menial tasks

manic cedar
nocturne yarrow
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i mean, the dude essentially couldn't move in the well, it makes a bit of sense to me

manic cedar
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well that's already years later

nocturne yarrow
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but I agree for the most part, most of the actions in roots were probably done by family members

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fair point, ignore whatever nonsense I'm babbling

lament oracle
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Kinda have to imagine he wouldn't actually be abetting Albert in the shit he was up to.

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Intentionally, anyway.

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Well, maybe he would

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Hard to make value judgments on how this guy is as a person

nocturne yarrow
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eh, he manipulated the deaths of multiple family members for his own gain, i think he's more neutral than good or anything like that

manic cedar
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Frank's timeline is another weird thing for me tbh

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After he leaves the well

azure bay
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The Cave. It happens in December 1972. Dale goes down the lake in summer 1972 & stays there unconscious until Mr. Crow arrives to send him back to the surface.

It was several month, but Dale is still shaven smooth.

lament oracle
silver hemlock
manic cedar
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He waits like 2 years to kill his uncle, which ok, fair enough, best saved cold

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then another year just to shave and go back to looking like a normal person?

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Put on clean clothes and so on

azure bay
manic cedar
lament oracle
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Yeah actually

manic cedar
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I was also wondering how they all live together

lament oracle
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Frank couldn't even walk in the well segment.

nocturne yarrow
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or for all we know, Albert was somewhere else during that time. A lot of his activites after Rose's birth are a bit of a mystery.

manic cedar
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I was thinking maybe Albert wasn't living at home at this time, but your explanation is better

azure bay
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if they don't delay TPW

manic cedar
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And what kind of father he was

silver hemlock
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I think the next game might explain alberts where abouts and more stuff

manic cedar
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To Rose

nocturne yarrow
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considering the easter eggs in Cube Escape Collection, do y'all think young Laura will be involved in TPW?

manic cedar
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Though she seems to be fucked up, so that's consistent with how I imagine his parenting

nocturne yarrow
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What do you mean?

silver hemlock
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Rose did some questionable things at a very young age

azure bay
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we do know nothing about their relations. TPW is again expected to highlight it

manic cedar
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Doing a seance as a child, then feeding her uncle dog piss, then digging up her family graves

silver hemlock
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Probably under the influence of Albert because he was also a messed up individual

nocturne yarrow
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hmm, i suppose, though she seems to have more of a moral center than Albert ever did

manic cedar
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Abetting in her father's murder and debraining

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Going through with all the human part sacrifices

azure bay
nocturne yarrow
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I don't think we can put moral judgement on any of this until we get a serious look at why she did all this. For all we know, she helped resurrect William because she saw his ghost as a curse upon her family.

azure bay
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she probably just couldn't do anything

silver hemlock
nocturne yarrow
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and yeah, helping Frank stay alive isn't really "helping him kill her father"

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and yep, I'd agree with that, she probably picked up some of her grim proclivities from Albert

manic cedar
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Well I was just saying I imagine him being a terrible father, but we never see them together

silver hemlock
azure bay
silver hemlock
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But he was still a messed up individual

azure bay
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his aggression mostly targeted his offenders

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he seemingly did not hurt Leonard

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even raised him

silver hemlock
#

But sometimes people with conditions like that would sometimes lash out even on people they loved or had relations with

azure bay
#

true

nocturne yarrow
#

now that I think about it- who the hell raised Leonard?

azure bay
#

we're yet to discover that

azure bay
silver hemlock
#

The next game is probably a “continuation” of roots

#

Focusing on certain people

nocturne yarrow
#

I suppose that (Albert raising Leonard) makes sense, but considering the complete lack of hinting at that, I think it's a bit of a plot hole

manic cedar
#

Leonard seemed very kin to ditch his house to fight in the war

azure bay
#

maybe something dfferent

#

I'm operating on the things I've already seen

manic cedar
#

Eh, maybe if I find a few hours I can do some sort of spreadheet timeline for Roots, just to visualise the character's ages better

silver hemlock
nocturne yarrow
#

I'm thinking it's going to be a look at two stories- Albert's motivations and possibly his existence as a Corrupted Soul, and Rose's life after Laura was born (and possibly her death)

azure bay
manic cedar
#

That'd be dissapointing

azure bay
silver hemlock
#

Yeah it would be annoying if it was dale because it just wouldn’t make too much sense

azure bay
silver hemlock
#

I mean the chances of him being reborn or reincarnated into the same family of vandermeers would be a little bit of a stretch

azure bay
#

Vandermeers are yet to be confirmed being related to Vanderbooms

manic cedar
#

Well for him it's just an unrelated family, so why not

#

Although to be honest

#

When I first played the games

#

For a long time

#

I was sure grandpa Vandermeer is mr Crow

#

Until I looked them up on the wiki

#

And then played Roots

azure bay
#

I don't like the grandpa=Crow theory but I have to admit it has its reasons to exist.

manic cedar
#

Well it is reliable enough to distinguish the two families, which my brain just didn't

#

Oh, it's the big vandeer family, wonder how they're related

covert wyvern
#

the basic information is fine

#

but for true storyline purposes

#

It'd avoid it.

manic cedar
#

I know, that's what I come HERE for

covert wyvern
#

hahaha

#

fair enough

azure bay
manic cedar
#

Yeah, but I literally thought it's the same name

#

And you have to admit, they look exactly the same and both just ask for a drink

#

In Birthday and Cave

azure bay
#

In fact, there are 3 reasons to believe Vandermeers & Vanderbooms being actually related:

  1. Gandpa
  2. Vandermeer means "of the lake"
  3. Dale's life path depicted on the globe in Paradox starts at the Vanderboom house
#

anyways I don't like them being related

#

That would become a sort of Indian soap opera about a single family

nocturne yarrow
#

I get that we aren't really supposed to bring meta concepts into theories, but I'd like to note that with how low-budget many of the earlier cube escape games were, it's most likely that they just reused the same or similar drawings for the Grandpa and Mr. Crow.

covert wyvern
#

nah that's definitely the argument im using

nocturne yarrow
#

Doesn't mean they're the same, it just means it may have been easier to have them look similar.

covert wyvern
#

I'm very anti same family yeet

#

but we'll never knoiw

#

know*

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

nocturne yarrow
#

I think the devs just like family names with "vander-whatever" because it sounds neat and can very easily mean stuff related to the story

covert wyvern
#

aye that is true.

hollow comet
#

aldous van der linde: I have a plan william

azure bay
#

🤨

#

if it's a reference, I'm not getting it :c

hollow comet
#

it is, dw about it

silver hemlock
#

Man I’m supposed to be writing a 6 page essay yet here I am talking and reading cube escape theories

azure bay
#

So freaking relatable

manic cedar
#

I mean it's not a coincidence, the writers are Dutch and they give them names that mean relevant stuff in Dutch

manic cedar
#

It's a spreadsheet showing the timeline of the game, character's ages and when they appear

azure bay
#

I'm unable to open it on my phone

#

Is there a way for you to convert it into an image?

nocturne yarrow
#

apologies if it's a bit low-qual

manic cedar
#

In the picture some of the dates are not appearing, that's just because the cells are a little thin

#

The ages in the bottom table are sometimes my guesses, in the upper table when the age is unknown it's just marked as A for alive

#

Red colour means that we have an appearance for the character in thsi year

#

Blue colour means that they are away (Frank in the well, Leonard fighting in the war)

#

The guesses are simple, I put James at 20, cause he's a young adult when he appears for the first time, Ida and Mary I just put to be the same age as their husbands, and Leonard is born sometime between his parents meeting and getting married, so between 89 and 95

#

In 95 he's already able to stand on his own, so I placed his birth in 92, but it's just supposed to be a rough estimate, to give a better picture of the comparative age of characters at different scenes

lament oracle
#

Which ending of The Lake is canon?

covert wyvern
#

who knows!

#

maybe both are and we're dealing with multiple timelines,

#

;D

lament oracle
#

I think I've got an idea.

#

There's a pretty huge gap in time within Seasons' first segment and its second. Perhaps The Lake is between Spring of 1964 and Summer of 1971. OR, maybe its in the transition between Summer and Fall of 71, to denote the point at which things got too fucked for Laura and she went to the lake to escape it. From there, either ending could be canon and the corruption could have spread to her that way.

covert wyvern
#

ye it's likely something like that,

#

maybe Seasons winter only happens if Laura changes her fate in the lake,

#

giving her a chance to redeem her lost soul

lament oracle
#

Okay. Just determined something important.

azure bay
#

As I can see, the blue-gem-ending contradicts summer 1972 & everything that happens after

#

unless the CS that Harvey defeats in her box was the very same one that was going to kill Laura

#

& Harvey did it before that

#

cause the CS could switch to Harvey just after killing Laura

manic cedar
#

Doesn’t the official timeline state that it was in 1969, between seasons 1 and 2? Presumably during Laura’s stay at Rusty Lake mental retreats/fishing?

azure bay
#

it does

#

that's why Laura's death in the cabin would cancel the majority of Seasons

covert wyvern
#

or she gets taken to the Machine, when she "dies" in the lake, and seasons only happens if she lives thonk

azure bay
#

we don't know whether she gets corrupted after the bad ending of The Lake

covert wyvern
#

Fair.

#

but we know she ends up under the lake in Cave right.

#

Im not sure what this implies though, it would mean that seasons "saves" Laura, and that timeline sort of stops there?

azure bay
#

why do you branch Dale's story from The Lake?

#

it's more natural to do so from the fall 1971

covert wyvern
#

Uh, right, that might be bad on my part, this is just a very quick sketch, but like, IF seasons only happens if Laura survives the lake, and thus cures herself, Dale never investigates the murder, so never ends up anywhere near RL, I guess?

#

so that timeline would just be the happy one, maybe lol.

#

Listen these are very wild assumptions, I have no evidence to back them up.

#

but I do like the idea 😄

azure bay
#

no, these thoughts are legit

covert wyvern
#

like I'm unsure how this would fit into stuff like birthday, etc.

#

I've always assumed that the killing of Dales family drives him into becoming a detective, so wouldn't saving them mean he might pursue another career path.

azure bay
#

some tend to believe here that Dale just creates a calming illusion for himself

some tend to believe that Dale creates an alternative timeline & somehow adopts experience from there while still belonging to the old one

some tend to believe that Dale's fixes for his past would still lead him to the lake

some tend to believe that the lake bends the reality in some aspects while keeping the others intact

covert wyvern
#

lmao fair.

silver hemlock
#

Ok so I was today I was thinking and realized that there were different ways to make the elixir and I just wanted to hear what everyone thought of each one (just to hear some theories)

#

All Ways to Make Elixir

1: Glass/vase + black egg (roots)

2: Genetically changed Dog feces + water (Cave)

3: flower, hair, copper, heart, stone, cloth, wood, fire, antlers, and the black cube (paradise)

4: (1 drop from (o) bottle), (2 drops from (x) bottle),(1 drop from (~) bottle)
(Roots)

vast summit
#

i think number 2 is just extracting the elixir from the feces though, since the dog had taken it in the past. i always figured that the watered down version of that elixir in cave was just sort of a boost and not its full effect :p
these are really interesting to note, though!

stark oriole
#

I still feel bad about feeding mr owl poopy juice

astral frost
stark oriole
#

I think Aldous got it right first, and according to paradox, one will die while the other transforms. I think William was the one that died but they tried to cheat the system through his resurrection.

astral frost
#

Aldous didn't create a full elixir(the one which apparently transforms people into hybrids), but he became Mr Crow thanks to his brother William. After that episode, Aldous continued to extract some elixir from the dog feces in order to make something which could help him and Mr Owl in maintaining their hybrid form (and their powers maybe)

#

But it seems Aldous didn't have so many alchemic knowledge as his brother

astral frost
#

So trying to be reborn after death is "totally legit" and not against the "natural rules" of Samsara and the Lake

azure bay
#

I've heard an opinion that James has completely recreated William's elixir but used not the original ingredients but rather the derived ones (E.g. the ready leftover substances created & used by William during his successful attempt)

#

talking about elixir, there is also the Great Work theory that ties the RL elixir to the real world medieval alchemy. This theory states that there are 4 stages of creating the elixir of life. In RL each of these stages is somehow presented by a different cube (& maybe by the redundant formulas of Caroline's or William's). Nigredo is the black one, albedo's white, citrinitas is blue & the final one rubedo (also known as the philosopher's stone) is golden. Here Owl's words about the full elixir may find a new meaning: Dale is creating the ultimate elixir rubedo using the previous ones in one way or another.

#

This theory claims being as fundamental as the samsara one but unfortunately it lacks strong evidence of samsara. We often see the samsara wheel, we often see its realms mentioned in Sanskrit but there's yet no mentions of albedo or rubedo.

astral frost
#

At least, there's seemingly a strong reference

manic cedar
#

Were the ingredients in paradise actually for an elixir?

#

Even ignoring the fact that they weren't physically there at the end, just as parts of the memories.

#

It looked to me much more like the list of sacrifices for William, than like the ingredients for the elixir.

#

And they allowed a corrupted soul to be reborn through her son.

#

Just like William was reborn through his great granddaughter niece

#

Whatever that level of relation is called

azure bay
#

I tend to believe Paradise more than Roots. Roots contains too many events stretched thin to interpret it literally.

#

e.g. the alchemy level could be oversimplified in order to make in-universe references & the big reference to the alchemy game itself

crude horizon
#

I mean I've always considered the black egg to be liquid memories
That's why when Laura boils one in Seasons, it turns into a black cube, right?

azure bay
#

these 2 eggs seem to be different

#

you are able to make a crow grow from it in the alchemy level & in Seasons it belongs to Harvey

crude horizon
#

but it can be reasonable to think that Harvey drank at least some elixir, right?

#

Considering Hotel

azure bay
#

we know nothing about it

#

even Eilanders are not certain to interact with Caroline's elixir

crude horizon
#

wait really?

#

Doesn't that make sense though?

azure bay
#

Eilanders were prohibited to use her memories

#

they were for Jacob's use only

#

plus, we see 5 individuals gaining the enlightenment for the single sacrifice

crude horizon
#

Maybe after paradise, Mr.Owl lured them to the Hotel with the promise of the Elixir

azure bay
#

while in any other case you get 1 person enlightened for 1 person sacrificed

azure bay
crude horizon
#

In this case the person enlightened is the same person sacrificed

azure bay
#

I think he wasn't sacrificed directly for the enlightenment

#

he was sacrificed to please the lake

#

It was the lake who Eilanders did ask for the enlightenment

#

so Jacob would probably just stay dead & eventually be reborn

#

but Caroline at the last moment has brought the elixir via her memories & sacrificed herself

#

& this time the ritual seems working by the rules previously established

manic cedar
#

Yeah, I thought that it's more about enlightenment than elixir too

#

And the fact that the Eilanders got reborn as animal people supports that they got what they wanted through the ritual, not through the elixir

azure bay
manic cedar
#

Well, did they get the elixir at any point? If so it would be off screen, but they are also not immortal in their animal forms, so I doubt it. But they did go up the ladder (or rather somehow progressed in the wheel), to get reborn as animal people. Which implies it was the sacrifice to the lake, that got them there. I may be very wrong, but that's just what I assumed.

azure bay
#

Being asura does not actually mean being immortal

#

At least according to samsara sources

#

Even in games Owl tells Dale that his time is limited

#

& I don't think he was lying to Dale

manic cedar
#

Well, as I see it, only the elixir gives you immortality, but that's not the only way to become Asura, so Eilanders are only Asura (through the ritual), but mr Crow and the Dog are actually immortal

#

Owl though... I'm still not convinced he had the elixir

silver hemlock
vague imp
#

no that Mr.Crow

nocturne yarrow
#

well, they both drink some of it

azure bay
#

Immortality contradicts the concept of samsara

#

Even gods are mortal there

nocturne yarrow
#

I always figured it just extended life, not made it infinite

azure bay
#

I may prove it not giving immortality with some evidence & pure logic

#

Mr. Crow has got weakened & needed to drink the exctact

#

What's the extract?

#

It's a set of elixir particles contained in dog's feces

#

E.g. they are leaving its body

#

Therefore when they all go out, the elixir effect will probably wear off

#

They are still there just because the dog drank the elixir 10 years after Aldous did

nocturne yarrow
#

This is pretty unrelated, but it's something I just put together in my head- the effect that the Elixir has where it kills one person and brings another extended life might be a carrying on of the sacrifice portion of the ritual seen in Paradise. Like, it's not just that the elixir can kill you, it's that it needs to cause death in order to work.

azure bay
#

I guess, it's the common theme in culture & folklore

#

I clearly remember something similar in Pirates of the Caribbean

nocturne yarrow
#

hell, for all we know, it might be that Laura's death was necessary to bring Dale immortality, which is what the games seem to be leading up to with the "ruler of the lake" biz.

hollow comet
azure bay
#

They did not believe me that LEGO franchise videogames ARE educational!!!

primal shale
#

oh my god so in Hotel are they literally only animal metaphorically

#

and they're actually just humans eating each other..

#

i'm thinking abt the part in Cave where Mr. Crow can switch between his human head & crow head. doesn't that kind of confirm the animal part of them is just symbolism?

nocturne yarrow
#

somewhat, but I think the Elixir does actually make their heads become animalish.

azure bay
nocturne yarrow
#

honestly, I'm starting to think that "enlightenment" is just another term for/ a side effect of taking the elixir.

astral frost
#

It's possible that devas are immortal until someone kill them

#

Immortality and invincibilty are different

#

But it's also true that Mr Owl said Dale that his time had come

#

Maybe Mr Owl understood that keeping in drinking the elixir wasn't worth

silver hemlock
#

Maybe it’s each time that you drink the elixir it’s a 50/50 chance of death or enlightenment

#

So he didn’t want to take the gamble

#

Or he was just dying

stark oriole
#

Yeah that i think is true

#

The 5050 thing

nocturne yarrow
#

considering Mr. owl's weird "turning into a fish" bit, maybe there's just a limit overall on how long you can use the elixir to stay alive and give yourself powers before you die/turn into a fish.

silver hemlock
nocturne yarrow
#

Paradox, chapter 2.

#

As you give him the different versions of your brain- past, present and future- he shows you three forms. Jakob Eilander for past, Mr. Owl for present, and... literally a fish for the future. It's one of the sillier things I've seen in the games, but whatever.

silver hemlock
#

Oh yeah I forgot about that but yeah it is a weirder one

#

WAIT

#

You remember how a crow is standing along side the fish in Harvey’s box? What if that fish is mr owl

#

Idk if you guys have already established that

manic cedar
#

I just thought of something

#

A few days ago we had a discussion over wheater Rabbit is a corrupted soul

#

Hinging on the fact that he's not mindless

manic cedar
#

But why would he be? Most corrupted souls we meant aren't mindless or wild

#

Laura's messes with time travel and can be reasoned with

#

William guides his family

#

Bob's can be reasoned with somewhat

#

Van Gogh's is painting, interacting with Paul and so on

#

Jacob's mom's is aiding her son

#

It seems like they are all thinking, if disturbed, and trying to help themselves

#

Which is absolutely in agreement with what Rabbit does in BD, trying to somehow undo his corruption

silver hemlock
#

@manic cedar
Well once grandpa shoots mr rabbit, if you talk to the parents they say “how did you know” as if they knew. So I feel they were under the influence of someone or something

#

But they definitely wanted to or needed to help mr rabbit for some cause

azure bay
azure bay
azure bay
astral frost
#

Every Corrupted Soul seems acting for a reason

silver hemlock
#

Ok so you remember how a few days ago I said that mr owl hired the reincarnations of the eilanders to do specific jobs? Well I think I might’ve proved my theory wrong because in birthday mr owl gives dale a present which allows him to turn back time to reverse what mr rabbit did. If mr owl was working with mr rabbit I don’t think he would need to do that. So there could be a group of aruras (the eilanders) that are against mr owl (Jakob) because he was the only one who became fully enlightened by the lake

nocturne yarrow
#

Perhaps Mr. Owl had some of the hotel guests doing work for him, but they definitely didn't continue that loyalty postmortem. Mr. Rabbit from Birthday seems to be trying to reverse his corruption at Mr. Owl's hands, the corrupted souls seen in the Cave at the bottom of the lake actively attack Mr. Crow, and the deer soul attacks Dale in Case 23- so I think it's safe to say they aren't working with Owl anymore, even if they did originally.

silver hemlock
#

Maybe they’re even trying to mess up mr owl in his plan to take dales memories and give them to the lake

#

But they failed because I think that’s what happens in paradox

nocturne yarrow
#

They might be doing a complex plan like that, but they seem more feral than strategic to me.

silver hemlock
#

I just finished replaying the white door and I think that when Robert gives the old beggar a coin, I think that the old lady might’ve been Margaret eilander (or ms pigeon from rusty lake hotel). Judging my the overall shape and identical hunch with the similar clothes, I think it’s her. I’m not sure if that was her in Harvey’s box (the pigeon) but for now I’m unsure

#

So I guess that the 5th eilander family member we’ve seen in the real world (David (mr rabbit: birthday and paradox), Jakob (mr owl), Elizabeth (ms pheasant: theater and white door), Nicholas (mr deer: paradox and case 23), and Margaret (ms pigeon)). Still no sign of mr boar yet but maybe he’s in another game

#

Additionally all of them appear in the cave but I’m not counting that because that’s not them in the real world as people

azure bay
#

there's no Nicolas in Paradox

#

it's Dale with the deer head

#

It seems to be a teaser of his future deva form

#

& making beggar be mrs. Pigeon also seems absurd from a certain point of view

#

like there's no other old ladies on Earth

#

the similarly looking lines have also a nice explanation

#

the same artist using the same style

#

that's what I'm willing to say each time someone tries to prove some characters being relatives just by their "similar" facial features

vague imp
#

I just finished paradox Chapter 1! I drank the red vial, I just wonder how to drink the green vial? as well as how to unlock other bunch of achievements, like what happened to the dear?

azure bay
#

good for you!

#

but what are you looking for here?

covert wyvern
vague imp
#

damn. Soorry..

lament oracle
#

So okay. Mr. Owl is a reincarnation of the dead woman in Paradise?

#

The main character's mother.

swift crag
#

caroline and jacob's souls merged and created mr owl
so partially yes

lament oracle
#

Ohh, okay.

#

Just had a thought.

#

If the guests at the hotel, and Mr. Owl, were all the cultists from Paradise... The who was Harvey?

swift crag
#

we don't know that yet sadly
i can't wait for harvey's lore cause i think he's a really interesting character and one of my favs

nocturne yarrow
#

I've always thought that some of the characters like Harvey and Mr. Toad (chef from hotel) are people that were never part of the Paradise cult or anything, but instead trustworthy people that Mr. Owl entrusted with immortality- and through that, an animalistic form.

#

I think this because of Mr. Crow- he was never very related to the Eilanders, but his work in alchemy seems to have caused Mr. Owl to ask for his services.

manic cedar
#

But crow also had to figure out the elixir to become himself

#

I just wanna know who bat boy is tbh

astral frost
#

Harvey and Mr Bat are very misterious characters indeed

#

About Harvey, we can suppose he was spying Laura for Mr Owl

#

That's why Laura attacked him in the Mill: when she got corrupted, she realised Harvey always helped Mr Crow, the one who led her to Corruption

#

About Mr Bat, there's a point we shouldn't forget: when Mr Crow rescues Laura's memories under the Lake (in the Cave), the White one show Laura at the Lake. There's also Harvey with her, but he doesn't have his own voice. He rather emulates Mr Bat voice

#

This hint could imply that Mr Bat played a role in Laura's trip to the Lake in 1971 (in the beginning of her depression stage)

jolly lagoon
#

Do you guys think that Dale and Laura could have been in love before Laura died?

#

But then they both had to be sacrificed to stop the wandering souls in the lake?

nocturne yarrow
#

It seems like they had no relation before Dale investigated her case, so I don't think so.

jolly lagoon
#

Ugh but it would have been so lovely if they could have... Maybe in some afterlife..

azure bay
azure bay
swift crag
tired sail
#

....

#

I just realized the “strange symbols” such as these

#

Are Hindi words

swift crag
#

what do they mean

tired sail
#

So far I have past, present, and apparition/demon

covert wyvern
#

Yes.

tired sail
#

I can’t believe I didn’t notice that earlier haha

tired sail
#

And the six domains thing

jolly lagoon
#

I have a feeling I shouldn't be here since I haven't played the games you pay for yet

swift crag
#

ohh yeah you're right
you need to watch out for spoilers

astral frost
#

Be careful ahahah

unique ibex
#

Rusty Lake were supost to be a Twin Peaks fangame

astral frost
#

But right now it's a completely stand-alone saga, with some references to Twin Peaks but an original story

stark oriole
#

wait whats twin peaks? did some googling to find the show

#

is it as good as the games

vague imp
#

Rusty Lake is inspired with Twin Peaks

stark oriole
#

...that is not helpful

spice frigate
covert wyvern
#

either way, if twin peaks is better than RL is hardly-

#

yes that^

azure bay
#

I'm desperately looking for advocates of "Paradox is after Theatre" theory. It seems to me that there is quite a number of people believing so & I really want to understand their point of view.
So if you are one of them & by any accident seeing this message, feel free to ping or DM me. Thx.

#

BTW if you believe in Paradox taking place somewhen during Case 23. I'd also gladly hear you out

swift crag
#

@azure bay there's a theatre room in the memory arraging puzzle

azure bay
#

  1. CE Theatre is Dale returning via memories from 1972 back to 1971 so it's not surprising seeing it there either way.

  2. What's more, there are all 9 CE rooms in that puzzle. Even the ones that have no way to be remembered by Dale because he wasn't a pritagonist there.

#

In some cases he wasn't even present anywhere neerby

covert wyvern
#

its safe to assume dale "investigated" most of the areas related to the CE series bc of lauras murder, though?

#

that's all I have to say on that matter LMAO

azure bay
covert wyvern
#

good point. yeet

#

although bedroom in arles is a famous painting, that's in case23? so it's not weird for dale to have a memory related to it I gues.

azure bay
#

But what about The Mill, The Cave? He was unconscious during that. What about Harvey's box that is much bigger than Dale could ever remember?

swift crag
#

ok so if i may
both paradox and theatre are pretty paradox...ical? i suppose
i don't believe theatre is a real memory as a real occurence more like a projection
that's because we can see bob and although we can see the bird people they are all "playing" themselves
case 23 is a physical occurence we can be sure of that - we see bob arrested and the policeman dead just like in the white door
as for paradox it's very clearly sort of limbo for dale
we jump in between his minds and just like in theatre we see not mr rabbit but david playing himself
so it makes sense more that paradox would be after theatre
one projection after the other created by mr owl to prepare dale for taking over the lake business

covert wyvern
#

dale picks up a file in case23 chapter one with locations in rusty lake, so it's safe to assume that's where those
"memories" came from, harveys box can be seen in chapter 4. I know it's a lame thing to say but they're memories, probably blown out of proportion for the sake of the puzzle.

azure bay
azure bay
swift crag
#

so when do you think it happened

azure bay
#

For now it's not important. Let's suppose I have no idea & I'm requiring all the evidence that support your assumption

#

I'll tell my pov later, ok?

swift crag
#

ok

#

tbh i personally think it wouldn't make much sense for it to be anytime after the paradox
it seems more like a lesson from mr owl to dale
sort of about the lake history sort of about sacrifice he tells him about the mill and crap
and then paradox is like the final preparation since at the end mr owl even tells dale that he's "running out of time" and that he "needs dale to become his successor"

azure bay
#

What about mr. Owl telling Dale about his purpose as the successor & only then starting teaching him?

covert wyvern
#

gotta butter him up first yeet

swift crag
#

idk it doesn't seem like mr owl's way of doing things

#

he's more of a showman typa guy

azure bay
#

So your point of view stands on your way of perception mr. Owl's character?

swift crag
#

it doesn't actually it all connects pretty neatly

azure bay
#

Can you tell more then?

swift crag
#

honestly since we got to mr owl's character
if you look back at paradise it makes even more sense for theatre to be before paradox
throughout the plagues you were learning the history of the sacrifice and caroline's death and only at the very death jacob and caroline's souls merged and mr owl - the new ruler of the lake - was born
notice how it's kind of the same for dale - he's learning throughout all the games and in theatre especially
in paradox he's the closest to finding out the reason of laura's early demise - it sort of even implies that he killed her? as i said paradoxical
he is meant to be the next ruler so it could also mean that his and laura's souls are supposed to merge? who knows

azure bay
#

Yeah, I also see Javob's & Dale's cases sharing similarities. But still Dale's story continues either after Paradox or Theatre. He is still to reach the hotel & do something there.

Talking about merging with Laura, he could already do that even before BD as in the elevator he constantly changes his state between human & corrupted on a high rate.

& lastly, I don't see too big problem with Dale knowing more about Laura's demise during his elevator trips & it's the player who needs to stay ignorant until the time comes. Plus, I'm not sure if Dale even remembers Paradox

azure bay
#

I still want to debate on this topic with different persons

swift crag
#

sure go ahead

azure bay
#

So I still need some people that support Paradox happening after Theatre or during Case 23. Feel free to ping me!

jolly lagoon
#

Woahhohohoh my gosh... Is the baby at the end of Samsara Room LAURA?

covert wyvern
#

Yes.

jolly lagoon
#

Woooah that is so cool

#

@azure bay definitely during case 23 and definitely after theatre

#

I'm trying to create a list of chronological ordered games by theory, if @azure bay ya wanna help me 😉

azure bay
#

I've already made one. so np

azure bay
#

So @jolly lagoon would you mind repeating your answer & explaining it?

jolly lagoon
#

OH I was thinking you said Paradox was like in between theatre and case 23, cause to me that would make a lot of sense, but if it were one of your speculations (??) then definitely after theatre

#

@azure bay

#

So what is your list?

azure bay
#
  1. Paradise
  2. Roots-Arles-Hotel
  3. Samsara Room
  4. Birthday (the original event)
  5. Seasons-The Lake-Harvey's box-Case 23-Theatre (the original event)-The Mill
  6. The White Door
  7. The Cave-Paradox
  8. Birthday (Dale's return)
  9. Theatre (Dale's return)
#

@jolly lagoon

jolly lagoon
#

I don't have any of the ones you pay for, and what's the difference between the OGs and Dale's Return?

#

@azure bay

azure bay
#

These memories (or maybe even their very events) are very likely to be altered by Owl & his crew

#

So Dale has a little help in canceling the massacre of his family in BD & gets a lesson of how the universe works in Theatre

jolly lagoon
#

Right

#

So what are theOGs and how do I play them

azure bay
#

You just can't

#

You asked for chronology

#

I've made it more comprehensive

jolly lagoon
#

Oh I see

#

So I guess I'll just wait until I have money to buy the ones you pay for and then I'll use your list. Thanks!

#

Wait wouldn't Birthday be before Samsara room

azure bay
#

Why so?

jolly lagoon
#

Because, Dale has his birthday then he's in Samsara room and Laura is there

azure bay
#

William was seeing his future in a way

#

He was reborn as Laura in the normal ending

jolly lagoon
#

Heh

#

I think birthday should be first, how could he be Laura if Laura is his murder case

#

Wait

#

Who's William

azure bay
#

The alchemist from The Cave book

jolly lagoon
#

Oh yeah

#

I think I need to play these over a couple more times before I start theorizing

#

Started to think I knew more than I did

#

: /

azure bay
#

@jolly lagoon honestly, we as theorists shouldn't ever think that we know everything. Especially myself. It may prevent from learning the actual truth or at least an interesting story.

jolly lagoon
#

True true

#

@azure bay

#

I still need to play the ones that you pay for

azure bay
#

Good luck with that

jolly lagoon
#

😉 thx

astral frost
#

There's also the chance that Paradox was the one which Dale lived in the lab under the Lake

jolly lagoon
#

There's a lab under the lake?!

#

🤩

astral frost
#

Which is supported by the fact that Dale's Corruption seems happening (or at least starting) there, as we see in Cave's ending, and also because after that moment Dale re-lives his memories during the ascent in the elevator

jolly lagoon
#

Ohhhh

astral frost
jolly lagoon
#

Man I love these games!!! and I also have a love hate relationship with how everything starts to come together but yet it doesn't and it's all so amazing and complicated and everyone has a theory that makes sense

astral frost
#

Ahahahaha that's true

#

Knowing that everything we theorise could be wrong btw

jolly lagoon
#

Yes 😂😂😂 @astral frost

azure bay
#

And most importantly how they justify it

silver hemlock
#

Wait I forget has dale met Harvey in person? (not in memories)

nocturne yarrow
#

I can't speak for before Birthday, but other than that I don't think Harvey showed up in Case 23 or anything.

astral frost
#

For what we know, the influence of the Lake/Mr Owl could have modified that memory and put that letter there

vague imp
#

Femboy albert/j

swift crag
#

i'll be waiting impatiently

vague imp
#

Thats what the /j was for

#

That means joke

swift crag
#

i know what that means but you made my hopes go up

covert wyvern
vague imp
#

Sorry

covert wyvern
#

Please stick to the correct channels

swift crag
#

who's the plague doctor in paradise because once every few weeks i remind myself that i don't know that think about it for a few minutes and then stop caring again

#

like was it explained am i missing something

#

or was he just there

azure bay
#

Some tell that it was Nicolas cause he was not seen back then. But I don't see any problem with it being just a random doctor invited to cure Gerard

swift crag
#

i thought it was nicolas at first but that's weird i think i checked and he was there
very possibly i could be mistaken

#

tysm

#

also you live in this channel don't you

covert wyvern
#

as long as we keep feeding crafter theories they'll be alright.

azure bay
#

maybe I'll expand soon

swift crag
#

okay
you've inspired me
imma write a paragraph of senseless babbling soon so prepare

#

technically speaking mr crow could be the doctor now that i think of it

azure bay
#

Aldous Vanderboom was born at least 3 years after

#

& became Mr. Crow even later

swift crag
#

i know that

#

but wasn't he seen in the darkness plague

azure bay
#

as an easter-egg

swift crag
#

shucks.

manic cedar
#

It was a shadow of Crow on a wall, so I’d put it in the same category as the shadow of Mr Rabbit outside the hotel room window- some sort of a premonition

azure bay
#

these 2 seem to be different cases

#

Rabbit's corrupted soul looked real

#

Crow's silhouette was looking like a shadow play

#

similar to zodiac ones

astral frost
#

He made some appearances as a Shadow in Roots, but in that case it was like an help to Albert

azure bay
#

but it looked corrupted enough

#

a jumpscare in the "House" chapter was looking more like him tho

astral frost
#

To me, it looks like Mr Crow always supported William behind the scenes in his quest to the rebirth

azure bay
#

he was indeed but pushing Albert deeper into his madness could be not a part of the plan

astral frost
#

Oh my bad

azure bay
#

not at all

#

that's just my opinion

astral frost
azure bay
#

alright but still

#

the fact of brothers exploiting Albert's actions does not necessarily mean them causing these

#

their plan looks to me a lot like waiting every death to happen on its own as long as they both believe themselves to be immortal

astral frost
#

Yep I agree with you

#

Mr Crow didn't influence Vanderboom family members

#

Everyone had his/her own personality, and acted quite free

#

Aldous and William exploited the effects of their actions

#

At least, this is what it seems

#

There's always the option about the 2 brothers manipulating all the family members in order to obtain the sacrifices

#

Which I wouldn't totally erase

swift crag
#

oh
i'm replaying paradise and harvey's there

#

i didn't remember him

#

so that's another possibility

night forge
#

@azure bay Have you heard about the theory that Harvey is Dale?

somber anvil
#

Wait what

#

Please tell me more 👀

swift crag
#

this sounds very wrong i'm interested as well

somber anvil
#

to be honest it would explain why harvey is everywhere, in every game, so that Dale can learn the history of the lake and everything

covert wyvern
#

but how would that line up with anything Dale sees harveys box in chapter 4 of case 23, he can't exactly be in two places at once.

somber anvil
#

is there a rule that you can't be in the present and future you be in the past, aka your present ?

covert wyvern
#

yes it's called time is perceived in a linear fashion yeet

#

I admit this is RL so I can't rule out the possibility

#

bc of the blue cubes n all

#

but I'm not quite on board with that I think.

azure bay
manic cedar
#

Do you remember Roots scene called the Lying Game?

#

There's a figure outside the window there and I can't figure it out

#

It gives you a mask in the form of a deer skull, but other than that it has no reason to be Mister Deer

#

It has a beak and it helps you, but it doesn't look like mister Crow usually appears in the game

#

It looks like a corrupted soul and with the beak it certainly seems to most closely resemble Bird William from the Samsara Room bird stage

#

But it doesn't really look like William, when he appears in the game in the Communication scene

#

Do you think it's one of the above, or some other unconnected Corrupted Soul?

#

Now that I think of it, it could also be corrupted Harvey, as the scene is right around the time of the soul being freed from the Hotel

#

Though we never get a sense that Harvey got corrupted, just either saved or reborn at this stage

astral frost
#

That CS looks like Mr Crow (look at its beak)

#

So I tend to think that it isn't a CS, but rather an appearance of Mr Crow in order to help William

#

it could really be a CS related to another character, but right now it would be a useless speculation without other infos

solid haven
#

I agree that Mr Crow on the first picture most likely isn't a CS, since those have white eyes as well as those little lines all over the outline of their body. However, that means the second picture in fact depicts a CS.

swift crag
#

more likely this is william since it was his journey to being reborn so maybe he was helping to speed it up

vague imp
#

we play as William

#

so i doubt thats him

swift crag
#

ok makes sense

grave stratus
#

@astral frost It looks to me like a baby bird. Especially the scraggly feathers.

nocturne yarrow
#

Maybe it's Mr. Crow's corrupted soul? In the White Door, we see an example of a person and their CS existing simultaneously, so perhaps it's Crow using the soul as an extension of his own will to help various characters.

manic cedar
#

1well, we've never seen his soul being corrupted otherwise

nocturne yarrow
#

Even so, this is a significant enough example to warrant recognition.

#

Perhaps when you become enlightened via the elixir, a free-roaming CS of yourself is created outside of your control. This could explain why it never really shows up around Mr. Crow, but still exists.

azure bay
#

I expect it being corrupted mr. Crow from the future. Like we could see mr. Rabbit's one before he died & presumably Laura's in Seasons as well

#

Corrupted souls seem to have special relations with time & space

#

William could see young Laura

#

Corrupted Dale could see every other version of him trapped in their mind

nocturne yarrow
#

That's a good theory. Perhaps that time travel will occur or be explained in the new game, considering that Mr. Crow's CS only seems to show up in the Albert levels.

vague imp
#

isn't the second photo the soul of Ms. pigeon aka Margaret Eilander

nocturne yarrow
#

Nah, that one has a different appearance

grave stratus
#

Still petty convinced it's the baby bird

astral frost
grave stratus
#

Yeah, the designs just look very similar

night forge
#

Here's the original theory:

#

This is my take on it:

#

As far as I can remember, the theory was thrown around by @digital fulcrum and @wispy narwhalwebb back in 2018. There were a few others, but those were the main ones. 🙂

vague imp
astral frost
#

About Harvey's box

#

The scene where you go into that fruit and the box changes represents a time skip

#

In fact, in the first part you can see (through the holes in the box) Laura's room, while in the second part you can see the fishing cabin

grave stratus
#

Also in Seasons you play as Laura I think

manic brook
#

I have a loose theory that hotel is a kind of revenge plot by mr. owl against his family. I mean, we know already that mr. owl is jacob, the player in paradise (in paradox pt. 2 as you move through the past, present, and future, you see mr. owl turn into jacob (the little red-head boy) and back) and he goes through a lot. his mom was killed and he was gaslit into becoming a sacrifice and then gets, you know, set on fire at the end. So, he probably has a lot of anger. The characters in hotel mirror the animal-personas of the eilander family and their ends are pretty gruesome. In Cave we see that the elixir that william created turned aldous into Mr. Crow. It is likely that something similar made Mr. Owl, and potentially he used it on his family? Any thoughts?

marble berry
#

I had the same idea, except i didnt really think of them as Mr. Owl's actual family, i just thought it was coincidental, but your theory makes more sense

nocturne yarrow
#

I think essentially the same thing as you two, but I stick with the concept that the hotel guests were reincarnations of his family- so sure, he didn’t have his family killed, but he did have the people who inherited their souls killed.

manic brook
#

ohh cool

astral frost
#

I'd like to add a little point to your thougt✌️ Mr Owl is the Ruler of the Lake (he can be compared at least to the asuras, but I think he's something more than a simple demi-god). So, my question is: would a God hold a grudge? I think Mr Owl had bigger plans than a simple revenge... Right now we have no specific infos about that, but I think it would someway involve the extraction of the Guests memories

manic brook
#

true. the memories, of course, are a huge part of this. and what are the asuras?

manic cedar
#

the animal people

manic brook
#

neat thank you i somehow have not heard that term at all

nocturne yarrow
astral frost
#

Yep, totally

azure bay
# nocturne yarrow I think the murder of the hotel guests was an attempt to “balance the lake”, as ...

I have to disagree with the balancing part.

Yeah, I do tend to see Mr. Owl as a pragmatic schemer who has no good reasons to perform the revenge too but I see his goals differently. Bare in mind that guests' cubes stayed contained inside the autoclaves bonded to their souls. They were not proposed to the lake as cubes usually are. (At least until the souls have escaped)

The main goal of the Hotel game was rather the white cube that contained guests' memories about the future. I have no idea how Mr. Owl's got his hands on it. Perhaps he had to go deep in one their minds in order to have a chance of finding one. Perhaps he had to produce it from a set of memories of their. Or maybe both.

But the main reason he was in need of this white cube is discovering successor's identity. It was shown there that Dale is the one to descend into the great depth of the lake & go back towards the hotel.

azure bay
#

Talking about Harvey & Dale, this theory is not viable & pretty never was. Back in 2016 we've got enough evidence of Dale's role to be greater than everyone's else. In Theatre he was foreshadowed to become a deva - a god while everyone else is believed to be just asuras - demigods. Back then it was already kinda clear that he wouldn't serve Mr. Owl.

The lightbeam that preceded Harvey's appearance in Roots is not Dale's time travel. It was Harvey's demise as asura parrot after guests' souls' escape & his resurrection as an animal parrot performed by Mr. Owl (e.g. his loss of the most of his powers if not all of them). The dates are messed a little bit tho: Emma is believed to see this event in 1891 while it actually happened in 1894 but it's either a time anomaly that I tend to see near the lake time to time or (even more likely) "The Search" chapter has just started in 1891 & was keeping going till "The Painting" that took place in 1896.

In The Cave we knew that Mr. Crow & Mr. Owl were not as powerful as they used to be & Dale is the one to either save them or replace.

And finally in Paradox Mr. Owl reveals that his time is limited & he needs a successor. Plus, since then we've seen several times Dale with deer head that could imply that Dale will become just another Mr. Deer & definitely NOT Harvey.

solid haven
#

We'd also have to assume either that Dale somehow ime travelled about 200 years into the past and turned into a parrot or that Harvey got reincarnated as Dale in the past in some way, and there just isn't really any evidence to support that.

astral frost
#

Moreover, Dale and Harvey exist at the same time

azure bay
#

So did the lady of the lake singer & Pheasant's CS

astral frost
#

Right

manic brook
nocturne yarrow
#

I agree with that theory as well, it has more actual evidence backing it than my lake-balance idea

manic brook
#

Anyone have any thoughts about why dale in particular though? Like Laura has her whole heritage to make her a perfect target for drama but the only past dale has is Birthday and I'm still not sure why the rabbit did that?

ebon aspen
#

I only know that dale family (possibly his """grandpa""") had mrs pheasant gun in that box, mr rabbit leaves a letter about why he did what he did too

I think past within will deepen a lot of unexplained things, but overally dale became involved with all the rusty lake thing when he decided to investigate laura death if im not mistaken

#

Knowing that time travel and the samsara concept are important in the rl universe, maybe crow or owl knows something big about dale and is just playing along to everything go according to his plan

manic brook
#

for sureeee i bet that the future has something cool

azure bay
#

If Dale is not related to Vanderbooms anyhow he could be the one with certain traits required for his special role.

Firstly, he's already connected to the lake as he has been familiar to Mr. Rabbit since he was 9.
Then he's seemingly smart (he's detective after all). & most importantly he is miserable but capable. Buddhism states that only the one who knew happiness & suffering & eventually surpassed both of them is worthy to be enlightened. Dale facing his past & getting over it is to bring him even above Mr. Owl himself who had no such a journey at the time.

nocturne yarrow
#

There was a line by Mr. Owl along the lines of "I've found the one who can do this for us", or something like that- which gives me the impression that Dale was chosen because of some random protagonist-y quality, not necessarily his prior lake connection.

azure bay
#

But he already knew about Dale

#

At least it was established after Case 23 & The Mill

#

As in Hotel he's seen him in the white prophecy cube long before his birth

#

If we search for in-lore explanation (retcon is just outside it) we may assume that either Mr. Owl was unsure or foretelling is not that reliable

nocturne yarrow
#

It could also be that Mr. Owl didn't tell Mr. Crow about foretelling Dale's importance until later

manic cedar
#

Aren't the hotel guests just early experiments with extracting memories?

#

And containing the souls

#

Before the mill machine was created?

azure bay
#

apparently memories are not separated from guests in the Hotel ending

#

they become so some time after

manic cedar
#

Right...

ebon aspen
#

I found a post on the rl reddit and got a doubt bc i dont remember anything going deeper about this:
"...Caroline is an alchemist and develops the recipe for the elixir, using the Lake as a basis. However, her family wishes to maintain Paradise Island through a ritual that requires a human sacrifice. .."
So... we dont have any other clue about the sacrifice need of the island/lake, right? I just remember playing roots and dont getting why the eilanders did the sacrifices. Though, the corrupted soul concept and everything was there... It started with caroline due to all the alchemy stuff or the history of the island/lake with this eerie things is older than it seems?

I know that prolly the next game will expand somethings, but just want to check if i havent missed some important stuff (i have a big difficulty to pay attention in these minor details, if someone have a good timeline linking facts and people or anything like one, i would like to see it so i wont be lost when the plot get deeper 😁 )

astral frost
#

There we have the theories field, because we haven't specific infos like books or explanations

#

I can tell you mine

ebon aspen
ebon aspen
astral frost
#

Let's discuss about the origin of the Cubes worship

ebon aspen
#

I dont like too much to speculate and create theories, but sometimes the craziest stuff helps you to get a light and come with a solid thing

astral frost
#

We may never have the answers we look for

ebon aspen
astral frost
ebon aspen
# astral frost Let's discuss about the origin of the Cubes worship

The cubes, as long as i know, are memories. I played paradise a long ago and dont remember how jakob entered in contact with his mother's ones, but the fact is that they let you see/visit memories and fix the past, and somehow he or caroline's soul was doing that to solve the plagues problem

#

Yeah, my biggest doubt is about the nature of the lake (why the sacrifices, how it makes you able to reach enlightenment, etc)

#

It seems to exert influence on people's mind when they enter in contact with it

#

Every single one is weeeeeeeird XD

astral frost
#

I agree with you: in fact, the Lake seems to be directly linked to the existence of reincarnation and the possibilty to be reborn in a higher form of consciousness

#

Then, the second point: it seems that humanity (or at least the part which knew Rusty Lake and its misteries) created a cult involving the Cubes

#

We have evidences of that, wait a moment

ebon aspen
#

YES

astral frost
#

Those are all paintings from the Reinassance: respectively "The birth of Christ" and "the Slaughter of the Innocents"

ebon aspen
#

But this would imply that not only the lake allows you to transcend and everything, or the cubes are just representing other reincarnations

astral frost
#

Wait wait hahahah

#

let's go step by step

#

to me, those paintings point out that humans always venerated the Cubes, partly for the religious constructions, partly for their powers (at least, for the ones who knew them)

manic cedar
#

Or that the people living around Rusty Lake

#

Injected their spiritual connection with it

#

into their christian beliefs

#

doesn't neccessarly mean that in this canon Jesus literally had black cubes

astral frost
# manic cedar into their christian beliefs

About that: I think devs choosed Christian references to point out to everything that a cult was created around the Cubes. But this doesn't mean that the Christian religion is involved: in fact, the entire reincarnation system is based on Samsara, which is from Hinduism and Buddhism

#

So in RL universe has its own religion: the Cubes' one

ebon aspen
#

Yeah, my comment was more like "tf did jesus know rusty lake??"
Sometimes i think a world map would be useful, for me the big gallery of places (and these evidences that people far from the lake location entered in contact with cubes) gets me confused about the "territory" of the lake influence

astral frost
#

then, we can talk about the Cubes and their essence

ebon aspen
#

Bc if entering in contact with the lake isnt needed to visit memories, then the lake seems to be "interested" in all the weird stuff concerning the souls, cubes, etc

All i know about the lake is that its said to help you to get "enlightened", but what exactly this enlightenment and why the rusty lake in particular is still lacking info in my thoughts

astral frost
#

ok ok, so

ebon aspen
#

Im thinking of replaying all the series to gather more data and refresh my ideas, but i remember asking myself about the rusty lake nature since i first knew the games

astral frost
#

there are many types of Cubes:
-the Black/White Cubes, which are the most "common ones", generally related to memories and many events you already know from the games
-the Blue Cubes, someway related to the concept of "Past", which lets Dale and Laura fixing their memories
-the Golden Cube, someway related to the concept of "Future", which seems to be one of the main goal of Mr Owl

#

this is one of the bases of RL universe

#

now, we can assume that, if a Cubes worship existed, it would have been "stronger" around the Lake, and, in particular, on the Island in its center

#

Paradise

#

This painting, which you can find in one of the last plagues, shows many people (probably the Eilanders and their grandfathers) praying to a Cube

#

the Eilanders always worshipped the Cubes and the Lake and, above all, they believed you can reach the enlightenment with sacrifices

#

is it true? people really reached enlightenment before Paradise events? we don't know yet

astral frost
#

Caroline just added a part which probably never existed before: science and reasearch. She found out one recipe of the "elixir of life and death" (which is the only one, as we know), which wasn't a real "drink", but rather a process of collecting memories in order to trigger enlightenment

#

After those events, Mr Owl understood that enlightenment and research were deeply connected, and started his own quest (but this is another story)

#

I let some points unspecified on purpose (for example the great day of the Lake, or the Plagues) in order to make a summary

manic cedar
#

Why exactly are the Eiladers punished with plagues?

ebon aspen
#

Yeah, when his visit to the island he certainly learnt something, but tbh knowing his or mr crow plans isnt my goal so far

manic cedar
#

Is the lake unsatisfied with the Caroline Sacrifice?

#

Or does it want a new one?

ebon aspen
#

Aldous became the crow after drinking the elixir too, so caroline made some big discoveries to reach that point

ebon aspen
manic cedar
#

The plagues were also stopped one by one by sacrificing memories to the lake, right?

#

Also there's like 15 years at least between the aborted sacrifice of Jacob and his actual sacrifice

#

And Caroline is only recently decessed when he returns

#

And yet the plagues are only starting now

#

Not when the initiall sacrifice was aborted

ebon aspen
#

Maybe caroline cursed the island, wouldnt be a surprise XD

astral frost
# manic cedar Why exactly are the Eiladers punished with plagues?

About this, I'm still unsure. This is my point of view
the Lake must be costantly fed, or it would unleash the plague or other natural disasters. Eilanders always made sacrifices and "calmed it down", but what the Lake really needed were MEMORIES (as we also see in the Mill, in the letter sent by Mr Owl to Mr Crow). This means the sacrifices were useful (cause death by sacrifice released memories, as we saw for Caroline), but it was UNNECESSARY.
So Mr Owl and Mr Crow developed a way to feed the Lake, without killing people

manic cedar
#

Right, but did they actually feed the lake any memories, before Jacob came along to stop the plagues?

#

I guess, since they had the chapel with that mechanism

ebon aspen
#

Knowing that the plagues are the same from the bible, could be related to something stablished before by this possible cult of the cubes

astral frost
#

In fact, I said: sacrifices release the victim's memories (as we see in Caroline's memory about her death)

#

this was enough in order to feed the Lake, apparently

#

the fact is: the sacrifices always "went good" until the Caroline's one

#

her sacrifice wasn't made in the well, so her memories weren't "accepted" by the Lake, but rather they spread around the Island

ebon aspen
#

Yeah, caroline sacrifice wasnt exactly a sacrifice in my opinion, it looked more like a wrath act by her family for her helping jakob escape

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Thats why i think that the sacrifices to the lake only truly work when a firstborn is dead, if its not the case they would only put carol in jakob's place and nothing bad would happen

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Geez, i REALLY have to replay the games, i missed so much things 😓

astral frost
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I think you didn't miss anything

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Most of what I've said is a theory

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hahaha

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So take it as a motivation to create yours

ebon aspen
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Yeah, i know, but i dont remember a lot of stuff
This weekend i will open a new note and start writing XD

astral frost
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and remember that the older games can be confusing

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devs probably hadn't develop the whole story yet

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so take them with a grain of salt

ebon aspen
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I will pick their recommended order to play everything, its common in these cases to deepen the plot bit by bit

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I take the oldest games as pilot episodes XD

astral frost
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right hahaha

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For everyone who's still there, I have an insane and completely groundless theory about Paradox

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First, the multiverse seems canon in Rusty Lake universe (since the "Human" and "Videogame" Dales can see each other).
Second, it seems that Dale continuously re-live memories (at the end, he finds a Black Cube where he's trapped and restarts the cycle).
Now, what if the Lake is a giant hub for all the universes in the multiverse? I mean, many memories from various versions of Dale can co-exist at the same time and float into the Lake. What if the "Games" version is forced to live his wrong memories because they aren't his ones (but they belong to other Dales)? Maybe in another universe he watched Laura being murdered, and in another one he himself killed Laura, as a CS; he then escaped from the loop only when he found the correct memory, associated to his universe

ebon aspen
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We already have time travel and past changing, keep the multiverse stuff for the mcu XD

astral frost
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I'd like to think we will have something more linear in future, but everything is making me think the opposite hahaha